Everton pipped to Byram by West Ham

I'm sure Yarmolenko and these two Belgian lads are just kicking their heels, ignoring everyone else, until the gentlemen make up their minds!!

This kid can fuck off anyway. Hibbo is better than him.

He can also play right midfield (where he's supposed to be better anyway) where there's Lennon and Deulofeu in his way.

We tried, he chose somewhere else. We move on...

Fan's who come on slating Byram are the same one's saying he was a great signing this time four days ago.

Imbeciles.

Mark my words, the stock and value of John Stones will continue to fall the longer he works under this management.

"we aim to finish the January window with a stronger squad "

actually come true.

I won't be holding my breath.

That being said, I secretly hope Byram never becomes a star. I would hate to see him dominating the league 5 years from now and wonder what could have been.

If Seamus is staying (and I hope so) this lad has showed that he has ambition and after 130 odd games doesn't want to sit on the bench or play the odd cup game.

I must admit I'm a bit disappointed though that we have lost another player that looked set to sign!

We agreed a fee with Leeds last Thursday, why didn't we bring him to Finch Farm, have his medical, agree terms and sign him on Friday?

West Ham matched our offer, 4 days later. Transfers are never straight forward at Everton.

I'm more annoyed at us looking like cocks for advertising our interest over that time and another club coming in and seemingly doing the deal in a matter of hours.

Coleman gets injured or loses form, what do we do, stick a centre half there or Oviedo who looks a complete fish out of water there at this level.

We never seem to have a clear plan. We need a keeper, what do we do? Let's just stick with tried and tested failure Tim Howard.

Kone has a few good games then all of a sudden gets another 18 month's on his contract.. Never a clear plan!!

Will be interesting to see if we go back in the market for another right back.

He is a very good young player but if you don't nail the deal then some other twat can come in.

He would have done well at Goodison but I cannot see him progressing that well with the Hammers, just a feeling.

Anyway let's move on and try and get someone who might make an immediate impact.

In seasons gone by, we have sold and not added, a few injuries later and we are looking threadbare. The addition of pacey, skillful or creative player, particularly a big name can galvanise a team.

I don't know too much about Byram but I hope this saga does not end up like drawing at Chelsea, a win lost at the last minute, with everyone feeling gutted.

Byram could have been the rocket he needed.

Next season, the Hammers will be playing in a state-of-the-art stadium with crowds of 55,000 which the club are expecting to sellout for most home games, from what I have read. They have the lure of London to the big money sponsors and more facilities for corporate fans whilst we will still be pondering on a new ground location and searching for investment 24/7.

It's no surprise players are not enamoured by the Everton package anymore...

As Evertonians we still get excited at rumours of Yarmolenko but too often end up disappointed. We need to get deals done quietly and quickly.

I was told that Austin was indeed being considered by the Incredible One as a replacement for Naismith but his agent was demanding £75 grand a week minimum + bonuses.

He must have got what he wanted at Southampton.

Regards Byram, am I bovverred!

West Ham shouldn't be more of a catch than us but the truth is we are not a big club anymore...

This deal should have been signed and sealed a week ago but maybe Martinez should look at giving a game to the right back of the Under-21s or even the Under-18s.

We do need cover at right back, personally I'd really like us to go for the boy Callum Paterson at Hearts up in Scotland (despite him scoring against us in pre-season). He's 21 and we'd get him for a couple million at the most. He's getting absolute raves, looks like a beast in the air, aggressive and very good technically. He's not going to be in the SPL for much longer and he's a stick on for the next Scotland squad. If we've missed out on Byram then I'd take a punt on him.

...Yes, get him in quick, a snip at that price, good back-up for x, good for the future...

...Come on, get him signed, pay whatever we need to pay, I can see y stepping in, would be typical Everton...

...effing us all over, same old same old; he's no use anyway, better players out there for that money; it's Osman's fault.

The majority of other posts make sense although some posters seem to think that Coleman is under-performing which I don't agree with.

A player like this shouldn't have got away from us when none of the usual squad-stuffing suspects were involved. We may have saved a couple or three million on the price agreed with Leeds over that likely to have been necessary back in August. But in the process we've lost out on a very reasonable prospect who at 22 offered a genuine bit of competition to Coleman but much more, would have given us strong wing-back options in a five across the back approach as well as dare I say it, offered some real balance in 4-4-2 play.

Please don't see us being hailed as "Gentlemen" as a plus. It just means we probably refused to either up our offer and force WHU to do the same or increase his salary offer. I don't buy this story that WHU offered "less" as that weirdo in charge at Elland Rd isn't about to be done over by anyone unless it really only amounted to buttons in terms of the clubs offers.

Gutted, as I think the manager will be tonight, but it's done; given he has by this pursuit of Byram clearly signalled he knows we need this position sorting in the short term AND with a view to longer term picture, I expect to see something by way of a Plan B.

[Yep. that really does read like I've seen lots of Plan B success this season!]

Had we signed him, there would have been praise for Martinez for signing good young players and talk of how the future is bright and we're building for the long term in class of 92 style and all that kind of stuff.

This is a disappointment but it's an understandable decision. I do think Coleman needs someone to challenge him and Byram would have done that, but obviously West Ham offered first team football.

Hopefully we do 'end the window stronger' as Martinez promised we would. Yarmolenko looks unlikely unless something changes. Dynamo will want to keep hold until the summer and the Champions League knock out phase.

I can see us signing a cheap Championship striker to replace Naismith, someone like Zach Clough, and someone like Elmohamady knowing our luck.

The lad is from Essex and will be moving home and he will probably be getting guaranteed more money rather than first-team football. Watch the knobhead son of the porn king trying to gloat about him going there, maybe now they can get over McCarthy's fair tackle on their only good player!!

He plays regular football in front of passionate Leeds fans. No way was he going to come and sit on the bench. He wanted first team assurances. Didn't get them. End of.

We've lost a potential squad player and have plenty of young defenders for the future. Nobody cared about him at the start of the window, so no point being bothered now.

However, seeing the West Ham fans trolling on Twitter because they are signing a player that doesn't think he's good enough to displace our current right back is just bizarre.

These are strange times we're living in.

Wishing injury on a young player for the perceived snub is way over the top by the way.

Marked.

Certainly worked out that way for the –3M purchase so far, hasn't it?

As for Charlie Austin. I think he'd have been a great signing but I read he's signed a £100k a week contact. That's too much for someone with his injury record.

If we sign Yarmolenko, Sam Byram will soon be forgotten..

He was going to be a squad player at Everton for a while. I don't blame him for choosing West Ham at all.

I will be absolutely gutted though if he becomes the next Gareth Bale. I can't see that happening though, so won't lose too much sleep.

Can someone help me understand how this has gone so wrong? Why didn't any possible obstacles get anticipated and resolved in advance?

Really? We all have problems with Martinez's inability to arrange our defence, but Stones was not attracting the attention of big clubs until Martinez put him in the team. His stock has since risen so much that he ostensibly attracts the interest of the best team in world football, and was subject to a record bid for a British defender during the summer. Clearly Martinez has been good for John Stones.

This is a real shame, and it's frustrating that we could not tie up the deal quicker. But Jenkinson has fallen out of favour at West Ham a little, and Bryam has a better chance of being a first team fixture there. I'd like to see us turn our attention to someone who can play full back but cover at CB. Although I can't help but feel that our primary problems areas are in the goalkeeping position and striking positions, whilst we also need a creative midfielder. I admire the continued determination to invest in youth talent however. We have one chance of long term progression, and the readiness to invest money and time in the likes of Lukaku, Deulofeu, Besic, Stones etc is clearly reaping rewards.

I would have also liked Austin, but can people not attempt to use perspective? Clearly the wages were an issue, whilst Austin has to compete with Pelle and Long for a place at Southampton...at Everton he has to compete with a 22 year old with 19 goals already this season. He would have played second fiddle, and would have been an occasional starter and a regular sub. We are not going to pay someone over 75,000 to do that. He is also use to a very different style of football at QPR, and Burnley before that. I really rate him, and would have loved him here, but sometimes football is a bit more complicated.

I think some need to calm down a little. We've spent approaching 60mil in the last two summers, and have brought in genuine brilliance in Lukaku and Deulofeu, and invested sensibly in Besic, Cleverley, Mori and several youngsters. Most of us would have loved Payet in the summer, or Wijnaldum or Cabaye, but clearly we are a club who can now spend money, unlike during the Moyes era. I don't buy into Martinez, and feel that we have under-performed this year, but I'm pleased with what he has managed in the transfer market so far, and in terms of player progression. I'll wait till the end of the month before making judgments about the state of our squad, which is good in most positions. Having a hissy fit because a right back has chosen West Ham is a disproportionate reaction.

Also - Ian 8. What is wrong with you?

Ian, all deals are not just about money. Would you, if you were a Londoner, sign for a club with no guarantee of playing regular first team games, when your local boyhood club is offering you just that?

If you just wanted to put Everton FC down again, then by all means look for a failure to complete the deal. I have a sneaking feeling you are trash talking EFC and playing dumb...................

I don't see it as a "hissy fit" to be really cheesed off at this one getting away but I do very much agree that during a transfer window the only analysis that really matters is the one the day after the window closes.

It's just that this is Everton and I'm reading how our manager thinks the squad is too big as we struggle to cover a key defensive position at a time when our defence is, well, woeful. I get that Jags, Chelsea debacle aside, is already making a difference but, even if Coleman does return at Man City, it's still the case that we are one injury or suspension away from having no real cover at right-back... this again in our massive squad.

If the mythical figure of Yarmolenko was to sign, I'd be made up, but it still wouldn't make me feel great about losing out on a chance to address a real issue in terms of that right-back position.

He isn't as effective going forwards and he has never been the best defender, he uses his pace to get himself out of sticky situations.

We could of signed this lad and give him a month or two without rushing Coleman back and if he had played well then he could of fairly kept his place. But Seamus as mentioned above is in the same "favourites club" as players like McCarthy who will take Besic's place in the team regardless of whether he brings Jesus back on a surfboard in an episode of Home and Away.

Aside from the fantastic young players we have at our disposal at the moment, what else exactly do we have going for us? A deluded manager, an absent skint dictator-esque chairman, a fallen through takeover, we don't own our training ground, we don't own the land our stadium is built on and the stadium we have is, for all its sentimental beauty, a shed.

It's so frustrating that we can't push on when we have players like Deulofeu, Lukaku, Stones, Barkley, McCarthy and others. Truly a spine of a squad is in place but there is so much else wrong at the club.

I'm no Martinez fan but let's not make this the be all and end all and make it into something it is not.

Trash talking Everton??

I was simply trying to understand why such a modest deal has been in the press for about a week and at the last minute it appears hijacked and wondered why.

Also, I keep reading that Seamus may be on his way, Man Utd and Chelsea rumours, and I know they are that, mean he actually might have a chance at Everton sooner the most of us may think.

Spot on with that one. I also don't really buy into Martinez as a manager, but as a long term strategist in terms of bringing in future potential and closing the gap between youth and first team, I think he has some good vision... I just don't think he quite has the tactical nouse on game day. We have the best squad we've had for years and should be doing better than we are, but I feel there is something there to be nurtured, it just needs a more ruthless man on the touchline putting the names on the teamsheet and giving the bollocking to make sure instructions are followed... and Bobby can work with that person in planning the future.

I'm more concerned about our options up front – we've lost Nessi so the only backup we have for Lukaku is Kone. And that fills me with dread. We've got young options in the reserves but we all know Bobby will ignore them and persist with a geriatric with all the pace of a snail.

Just another day of being a Blue...

Oh well... West Ham is is local club, 'innit!

Never mind.

Seriously though – he's gone to his local team, currently in 6th place, with rich owners investing loads and a brand new stadium next season. Can we be surprised? It's just an early sign that our standing still is sending us backwards.

Quite agree, he probably chose West Ham because of more guarranteed football.

His decision not to come to us, so he is history, and we move on.

J Benning. I agree mate about Coleman. Just nowhere near the player he was. Who knows why?

I thought this lad was class cover for all along the right side and he scores goals.

When we agree personal terms, I don't know why we can't nail it there and then instead of allowing people to "go away and think about it".

I know that we have a shortage of specialist RBs. But we do have a number of players who can play in that position. I rate Browning, and when fit, he can do a job in that position. Stones also. Pennington. Holgate (I think can play RB). Oviedo has done OK. How about even Lennon, if stuck. And Coleman is still an Everton player(despite transfer talk). For now I think we can manage. There are other positions that I would worry about. Why are we not linked with Goalkeepers? And nonsense to say that Charlie Austin would only warm the bench. How about him and Lukaku playing in a 4-4-2 set up. Mirallas on the left wing. Deulofeu on the right. That would have been a joy to watch. Backed by Barkley and Besic bossing the midfield. That set up just might have "out scored", a few teams. But it was not to be. We all worry about his wages, and that he might be on the bench. FFS we play Kone. We could have adapted to accommodate Austin. That's what good managers do... adapt, change, rotate, have a Plan B.

Last comment... I read somewhere that Scott Dann could be on the market soon. And that a few teams are showing an interest in him. Should Stones be moving on... then I think that Dann is the sort of replacement we should be showing an interest in. (I don't care that he supports the RS) I think that's true... He could do a job for Everton. But as usual Everton are showing no interest in this type of player. Nor will they ever show an interest in a Shawcross type player. Probably would haggle over a few thousand and lose out on a deal anyhow. And as for Yarmolenko signing... Let's hope so. But I wouldn't hold my breath. Some supporters might start complaining about his wages. FFS.

Coleman is still the same player, but he is being asked to do a different job. You cant play out from the back if your full backs are in the opposition half.

Haven't you guys heard? We traded the exciting marauding attacks down the flanks for a more measured crowd silencing approach two years ago... perhaps that's why the kid chose West Ham.

Byram's an Essex boy. West Ham have offered him 1st team football. They've moving into a stadium we can only dream of. It's got little to do with Roberto's pulling power. Don't pretend it does.

I think the day Jim Bennings joined ToffeeWeb, Lyndon and Michael should have started prescribing Valium as a matter of course for all other fellow ToffeeWebbers!

The only thing we could gripe about is if there was any dishonesty or skulduggery here (agent playing games etc) and there is no evidence of that. I don't think there has been any dishonesty here has there?

Byram clearly didn't leave Everton last weekend saying he would sign and that's why RM portrayed such a cautionary tone about the proposed move at his press conference. Offers have been made, choices made which don't land in our favour this time around.

We all move on. No conspiracies. Just life. Now let's show him what he's missing out on. It's the only way.

The attitude was according to Martinez "we're Everton and we don't panic or rush". We have a higher opinion of ourselves both on and off the pitch. We should have attitude of "we're Everton not Real Madrid so we should get this done sharpish".

We lost out on Martyn all those years ago and seems to me not much has changed.

West Ham are also way better placed in the league than we are, and look a much better balanced outfit than we do. Good luck to the kid.

As the saying goes one door closes and another one opens – at least this hasn't happened at the end of the window.

Harold put me on to this lad a few weeks ago:

Arbnor Fezjullahu : Link

He looks the business to me.

I'd prefer a more experienced player anyway to add a bit of wisdom and nous to our defence. We missed Jag's experience badly when he was injured.

I wonder about this too. With other teams, often the first you hear is when the player signs, but our transfers seem to be in the news for days (if not weeks) before they are completed (or not, as the case may be). There is no reason (other than prevarication on the part of the player), why a deal can't be done in 48 hours max (subject to a clear medical), after the bid is accepted.

On the matter of right backs at the club, my understanding is that Pennington is supposed to be very useful in that role and isn't there also one called Evans (or Jones), that is meant to be equally good?

Perhaps all is not doom and gloom as far as an eventual successor for Coleman is concerned, after all?

On the subject of Byram, he's chose West Ham, so good luck to him. Just felt if Everton really, really wanted him they should have moved a lot faster last week. Don't know much about the kid, but if he's been told he will get a start most weeks (crazy), he might be decent. Soon find out but more interested in getting Coleman back fit in the next week to be honest. Jim says he hasn't been the same player, but I've seen signs, that Seamus is starting to play a lot better myself recently.

On the other hand, if Ty Browning hadn't been injured I don't actually think this would have even been on the cards. I think Ty is decent competition for Coleman and at his age will be the more long term replacement for him. With Byram coming in this would have stopped Ty from developing in the way he would have needed to to become a decent right back for the future. So, as someone stated above, every cloud has a silver lining and I think ours is that we have Browning already at the club and we have saved £5m.

Hugh #107 – the player you're floundering for is Gethin Jones who by all accounts is a very solid defender. We are pretty well stocked in that area with Jones, Pennington, Holgate, Foulds and Kenny all able to develop in that position. Granted they are all young and probably all more seen as central defenders (apart from Jones) but there's potential there.

So in conclusion yes I'm pissed we didn't buy Byram but I am one for bringing through youngsters from our academy so will get over it if at least one of the above are given the opportunity to compete with Coleman in that area. That money can be put to better use elsewhere as we have so little of it.

With Everton, he would have become an International.

Anyway, we might well have ended up with a very disgruntled lad on the bench, because he's probably not going to get into our side as quickly as at WHU.

I have no doubt EFC would have wanted to keep this quiet and not alert anyone, but Byram and his agent do have free will, you know? He may well have expressed a desire for WHU as his boyhood team and his agent engineered this with EFC as a backup club/stalking horse. In fact, much as I posted on the original thread within minutes of others, saying, "Great signing" yadda yadda yadda, why do people still get surprised with how transfers are done these days? And contrary to posts above saying other clubs do this on the quiet, they really don't. You just don't pay as much attention to them.

Separately, if he has gone to WHU with a guarantee of first-team football, then see ya, bye bye, no loss. I would want a player who has faith in his ability to displace anyone. I don't think he is all that anyway at the moment. Someone said yesterday he was most like Glen Johnson and I think that is a decent comparison at the moment. I like my fullbacks to defend first and foremost rather than look good going forward.

Lastly, I don't agree at all we have a great squad. IMO we have decent first choice 11, but the squad is horribly unbalanced in three seasons of Martinez. A great squad has good cover in all positions and we simply do not. We have no comparable cover in key positions, notably striker, no real recognised first choice left midfield and a glut of midfielders. Not my idea of a great squad at all and Martinez has had plenty of transfer windows to address it but, just like attention to defence, he has been negligent in not doing so.

Have a day off!

A number of us do have very real concerns about where we're going under Martinez. It's all very well some saying that he's made some good signings but the fact is that he has by now long since created HIS squad rather than the one he largely inherited from DM.

For the record the DM boys achieved a record Premier League points tally for us, whilst Martinez has reduced us to mid table with all his good signings and all.

This is the crux of the matter; it's Martinez, obviously, who's way short of what we and the players deserve. Anyone with nous should see that and it's not acceptable to many, many Evertonians to settle for what he's delivered, year-in & year-out.

For my part at least I was addressing comments within the thread.

It is possible that the "same tired old rhetoric" appears because Martinez keeps making the same tired old (and obvious) problems without any indication of addressing them despite blathering on about having "learned lessons" countless times.

I for one never wanted him but certainly was willing to give him a chance. He has had plenty now and is a failed experiment now and should be curtailed as quickly as possible IMO. He won't be though, so paying fans have every right to express their dissatisfaction.

If a player has been identified and the club have done all the necessary background checks about temperament etc then why give other clubs the chance to gazump us. This deal could have been sorted prior to the window opening and finalised on Jan 2nd.

Don't some of you feel just a bit silly making statements like "there's no reason why a deal can't be concluded in 24 hours" without any kind of experience or understanding of the circumstances backing it up?

How do you know this? If the agent wants to alert other clubs, as I suspect, why couldn't he have done this outside the window too, so they are equally prepared? Why would it be any different?

If a player has a preferred choice other than EFC and his agent lets out that his client is available and they then come in, what exactly can Everton do about this situation, whether it is in the window or not?

Tim Howard
Tony Hibbert
Aiden McGeady
Gareth Barry
Leon Osman
Steven Pienaar
Arouna Kone
Steven Naismith

That's eight players who I think will not be any good for next season at all and will need replacing. Naismith looks set to leave so hopefully get a replacement soon; Gareth Barry I don't think can do another season at his age to the level required. The rest speaks for itself. I do think we need to replace all eight, and still add depth to the squad on top of that.

Also, can we keep Lukaku, Stones and Mirallas? If not, they will also need replacing. Its great that Roberto has been buying for the future but the first team squad overall needs replacing as above and I think i'ts worrying especially if we want European football, which we do to keep the likes of Lukaku etc at the club.

If the lad (or his agent) would rather he play elsewhere, best to find out now.

Wasnt it "the great man Shanks" and, more recently, SAF who were only interested in players who wanted to play for their respective teams... and happy to avoid / off-load those who weren't?

Also, on the gentlemanly conduct debate. Only six months ago, these forums were seething about the less than gentlemanly way a certain London club went about trying to acquire one of our players. We can't have it both ways.

He chose the team he supports, will walk into the first team, moves closer to home, above us in the league, new manager and a new ground next year,

Why wouldn't he go there?

It's not worth playing the blame game, as the kid clearly wanted to go there, as they offered less than us.

The manager does not control every aspect of the club. The only manager that gets near that kind of control is Wenger, and he is a rare example.

Incidentally, it's common for transfers to take an extended period of time. It happens with all clubs, and not just ours. We've had a pathetic record with medicals etc... but guess what? Everton are not special. Other fans will tell similar stories.

We've missed out on Bryam, not Alexis Sanchez, because he has decided to sign for another club for obvious reasons. We had a bid accepted at the end of last week, sorted out a medical for after the weekend's football (a common practice), but he chose a different club. Martinez is not to blame for this! He may be to blame for our defensive problems, but this is not a thread about that – it is a thread about our attempt, and failure, to sign a back up full back.

For those with their heads so far up their arses that they think Everton are a special case, take a look at some of the stuff that has gone on at United and Liverpool in recent seasons. The Fellaini story is perhaps my favourite, but their much reported attempts at signing Bale and Muller are also pretty remarkable. We are not as efficient as we should be, but we are not alone. To cheer us up, it might be worth checking this out:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/12104210/Brendan-Rodgers-reveals-how-Liverpool-missed-out-on-deals-for-Dele-Alli-and-Alexis-Sanchez.html

Also agree with Andrew (#126). Several critics are saying Everton's nice guy approach cost us a player? What does this even mean? Everton got Leeds to accept more money than West Ham. They were bringing in the player for a medical when West Ham pipped Byram by promising him first team football near home. What were Everton supposed to do? Kidnap Byram and force him to sign? How many of were screaming about the behavior of another club in their pursuit of or young centre-back?

How can some of you critics expect us to take your criticisms of RM seriously when you rip him for everything? Especially when it is something that is obviously not his fault.

By all accounts, the club handled this in the proper manner and were not to blame for the player opting out. Personally I would love to have seen this kid come in as backup/competition for Seamus. But to guarantee him his spot ahead of a fit Coleman would have been ludicrous. The player was told this and refused to sign. His choice. End of. Move on.

I have to also mention that I was appalled by the comments of Ian @ 8. A young 22-year-old craving first team football doesn't deserve that, no matter whom he turns down.

That said I still think Byram would have been a sound, timely acquisition.

It used to be "Dithering Dave" during the Moyes era... is it the Manager or the club's 'process' for buying new players in that these 'dramas' ... or the usual smoke & mirrors during a transfer window?

Are the perspective buyers of the cub still doing their Due Diligence?

Were I a neutral, I'd say it's actually refreshing to see a kid that wants to play go somewhere for less money to do so.

Of course that leads right back to the disappointment because that's exactly the kind of player and mindset you want...

It happens, and in this instance I'm sure the kid's agent should be the object of your scorn (for going as far as the medical, actually fully agreeing terms and verbally committing to sign) rather than levelling weak accusations at Martinez for not being able to sign him.

At the end of the day, he's untried at Premier League level and I've seen plenty of Blues with Leeds-supporting mates say that he's more of a midfielder (so he'd have Lennon and Deulofeu at least in his way there), hasn't really played right back at Leeds for the best part of a year and hasn't been that great defensively when he has. Apparently, he loves to get forward but gets caught out at the back... sound familiar?

Kevin T is right – these threads are becoming boringly monotonous with the same names (and I can reel them off before I've even hit the button to publish an article) posting the same stuff about Martinez day after day. It gets back to the plea I made for less negativity a few months ago – if you've said it 10, 20, 30 times already, please try and hold off saying the same thing again on a new thread.

Like everybody else who cares about Everton, I feel that we need another striker (priority number 1), a goalkeeper and a commanding centre-half. I would love to see Yarmolenko also but cannot see that one happening somehow. If Naismith goes, which is looking likely, we are really short if anything happens to Lukaku.

As much as I am a critic of Mr Martinez, I actually trust him in the transfer market so let's review on February 1st and see if we have a stronger squad like he promised.

One final thought, it wouldn't surprise me if his agent let Everton negotiate a deal with Cellino who looks a bit of a crank then tip off West Ham.

On a more positive note we've probably got a better right-back in the making in Kenny ..... and between Browning and Pennington, the position could easily be filled when Coleman is out. They've both impressed me when they've played there and I think they deserve a chance as they won't get many opportunities at centre-back.

When the news broke that we'd had a bid accepted, praise was being heaped upon Martinez from all quarters: "Another piece of fantastic business" by the guy who had attracted more youngsters than the Pied Piper. So, if we are going to give him all the credit when we think he has got his man, why should he not take the blame if he lets it slips through his fingers?

Let's look at some of the reasons/excuses being put up for Byram turning us down.

"He's a London boy who decided to go with his local team".... really? Byram left London when he was a toddler, he probably doesn't even remember ever living there. Listen to him speak and he sounds more like Dickie Bird than a Cockney Sparrow. He's as Yorkshire as a Bradford curry house.

And what's all this about being guaranteed first-team football? Where does anybody at West Ham say that? They are paying Jenkinson's wages, what are they going to do with him? The Evening Standard (not gospel by any means, but closer to the club than us) are reporting that it may well be Byram himself going out on loan.

How about we acknowledge the probability that the West Ham manager made a bigger impression than Martinez? Have we really got to the stage where Martinez is to be given total credit for the players who do sign, yet take no responsibility for the ones who turn him down? Last week, he was being lauded for landing this guy.

I seriously doubt anybody on this thread "hates" Martinez. But this was a one-horse race when our bid was accepted, some are (justifiably IMO) asking how the fuck we managed to come second.

I did read that Leeds would have preferred him to come to us as they had negotiated add ons with our deal, were West Ham refused any add ons.

Also, why should Martinez be getting grief just because he's chose to sign for someone else? Until we know why he's gone to West Ham(if he has), why should Martinez be held accountable? Especially with our board!!

For what it's worth, I've never seen this lad play so I've no idea whether he is any good or shite.

I just scrolled back to see where this "turning the thread into a bobby bashing" claim originated and what a surprise, it was you (again).

Care to explain how describing the different uses our two most recent managers made of their full backs constitutes "Roberto Bashing"

And while you are at it, would you like to point us in the direction of the statement from West Ham that announced Byram would deffo get first team football?

But I have a feeling something good is going to come out of this transfer window or perhaps just wishful thinking from a transfer starved Bluenose.

The statement from West Ham saying the player would defo get first team football is filed in the same evidence folder as the one that shows the "probability that the West Ham manager made a bigger impression than Martinez".

The truth is none of us know the lad's reason for choosing WHU over EFC. Martinez may have fucked it up. Byram might just be a greedy bastard that chose the bigger wage packet. But we don't know. So your assertions are as baseless as anyone else's.

I ask people to consider and acknowledge the possibilities and probabilities.

Bit different than some of the "facts" that are put up there as an excuse for him not signing.

If he joins WHU, it seems likely the fact he's from Essex is a major factor – tough for us, but that's life. No decent manager will guarantee a player he'll be 1st choice – find it hard to believe Bilic will have done that. Truth is we don't know the why's etc.

I think we need decent, reliable cover/challenge for Seamus, so would like us to get this lad – but there's other good fish in the sea, and now Oviedo's hopefully OK, the pressure's off.

On a wider note, I still have faith in Roberto – we're work in progress and a young team, but the signs are looking good. We all need to be calm and patient, and support the team.

We know he has turned down one manager and agreed to sign for the other so the probability is pretty high.

Your claim that Byram might just be a "greedy bastard who chose the bigger wage package" is what I would call baseless.

You don't even know if wages have been discussed, let alone who offered the most.

You've said on numerous other threads that you don't believe the exciting young players we have signed has anything to do with the 'Roberto effect' rather it being the club pulling them to sign

The opening sentence of your post # 94 See below

"So much for the much vaunted pulling power of Roberto, as soon as an alternative offer came along..."

Numerous reports have said the game changer was the promise of 1st team football (take your pick from News Now) so he's got more chance of 1st team football before he will at Everton. Carl Jenkinson has by all accounts stunk the place out this season. And Tomkins, the other player who's been playing at RB, is a CB, and not a very good CB.

Where would you go if you were him?! He'd have one of the best RB's in Europe ahead of him in Coleman. And Deulofeu and Lennon on the right wing.

Nobodies going off facts here. People are joining the dots together from variables like Byram coming from Essex, West Ham being higher in the league, Brand new stadium and more chance of 1st team football from sources including the Yorkshire Post.

If you want to go on probabilities instead of facts, Darren. Where do you think a young player who wants to establish himself in the Prem would go based on the variables above?! I don't think this has got anything to do with Roberto Martinez selling the club to Byram as you inferred with your opening sentence of #94.

I assume you now accept that the "cockney Sparrow" PROBABLY doesn't even remember living in Thurrock and you simply cannot back up your claim that he has been promised first team football ?

We only have one "fact" as far as I can see. The guy has turned down the manager of one of the finest footballing institiutions in order to play for the manager of a yoyo team.

Its up to the individual to draw his own conclusions, I think most will do that, despite you howls of "Roberto Bashing"

Yes, Darren, a YoYo club who are higher in the league and are moving to another level with a stadium we can only dream of.

You're now claiming the the REAL reason he is going to West Ham, is because their manager has got an inferior group of players much higher in the table than our manager can get his incredibly talented squad?

And you say I'm Roberto Bashing?

Do we know as "fact" that he has accepted one manager and rejected another? Is it the manager that has been accepted / rejected? or something else?

When he was appointed three years ago he got the job by saying he could achieve Champions League qualification. To put it mildly I held my breath given his record.

In his first season with us after four with Wigan, during which it's reasonable to assume he got to grips with teams and successful tactics in the Premier League despite Wigan's relegation, he nearly made good on his boast with a mode of play largely based on Moyes's tactics and players, players way better than Wigan's by the way, despite the drubbing they gave us in the FA Cup after Moyes had effectively jumped ship to Man Utd with Kenwright's support.

Having 'learned' from such a near miss, he then inflicted his 'Plan A' last season, and his fans will say why not after the years he'd had in the Premier League? But it was dismal from day one, and we all know his moronic tippy-tappy 'ideal' made it so. By March we were in danger of relegation.

This season, with a squad now entirely chosen by him, he's varied it slightly so that we score more goals. To be kind, we'll call it 'Plan B', as befitting any manager with such alleged hard-earned know-how.

Up to now 'Plan B', free from involvement in Europe, sees us in the bottom half of the table, again.

Everyone, repeat EVERYONE, even his supporters, have said we concede way too many goals like Wigan did. We constantly fail to win enough points to make good on coming remotely close to his boast, in a season where even Leicester City have been winning. Palace, Stoke, West Ham have always been above us too, as have newly promoted Watford more or less. Their managers have spent nothing like the amount Martinez has.

Further, he constantly states that "We need to learn lessons", but the team he sends out constantly shows failure in the very next match or two.

By the time 'Plan D' is instigated, assuming he has one (and I'm sure this bullshitter has one in his head all the way down to 'Plan Z'), we may be relegated because our better players will have long since sought pastures new, and who can blame them? Several of our senior ones have said they've sought meetings with him this season and last to rectify problems, such as relegation... and yet some fans still support him!

If he was any sort of manager, Martinez should have long since reviewed our matches, this season and last, on one of the alleged dozens of TVs he has in his house and recognised repeated problems in our set-up, and then done something to correct them by the time the next match begins.

But he hasn't, ever, and that's why us older fans and many astute younger ones take him to task.

Nowhere have I claimed that he's a greedy bastard. It was a random example to illustrate that you, me and everyone else on here know absolutely nothing about why he chose WHU over EFC. To repeat my original post:

"The truth is none of us know the lad's reason for choosing WHU over EFC. Martinez may have fucked it up. Byram might just be a greedy bastard that chose the bigger wage packet. But we don't know. So your assertions are as baseless as anyone else's."

If you want to believe it is as straightforward as him choosing Bilic over Martinez, then good luck to you. That still does not make it "fact" as you claim in post #159.

Whether you like it or not, Byram has turned down one manager and agreed to join another – that is an inescapable fact. It happens every time a player is offered a deal by more than one club.

You are the one who chose to introduce the notion that Byram may be a "greedy bastard that is looking for a bigger pay packet" – not me.

I don't choose to believe anything, certainly not the claims made by Gavin, as he has no proof whatsoever. I merely say that people will stick to what little they do know and draw their own conclusions. Your suggestions that he MAY be a greedy bastard, won't alter that.

He might not (or he might) give a toss about the manager (who can be here today and gone tomorrow). Bottom line is, we don't know.

Opinions are like arseholes.

Byram revealed that Slaven Bilic played a big part in convincing him to join. "I spoke to the manager and he is one of the main reasons which attracted me to West Ham," he said. "I think he's done unbelievably well with his team so far, so I'm really looking forward to working with him and his staff.

"My uncle and my cousin are big West Ham fans and have bought their tickets for the new stadium. My uncle was down here yesterday getting a shirt with my name on the back! It's nice to have them down here and they'll help me settle so I'm looking forward to seeing them."

No mention of first team football but of course this is what Bilic may have discussed with him and why he was so impressed.

Bilic seems well liked and respected by most in the game and clearly has done well with their current squad (though I believe their success/progress this year has more to do with great individual performances by some their recent signings than anything else). In any event, they are moving in the right direction on many fronts.

I would suspect the reasons why a player chooses one offer or club over another will vary significantly involving a multitude of variables depending on the circumstances. The reaction and theorizing that is happening here is more newsworthy than the actual decision taken by the player himself.

Personally, I think he has moved to the wrong club, time will tell, but we can remind him what he missed out on when we play them at our place in early March.

I never claimed I was right, I simply made the observation that a soon as the player had an alternative offer, the deal with Roberto was off. That might upset a few, it even had Gavin screaming "Roberto bashing" – again. but it is what happened.

Gavin did what he always does, he reads something in a paper and presents it as fact. We still haven't seen anything from West Ham to back up his claims.

What we have seen is the player come out and spell out in no uncertain terms that it was the West Ham manager who swayed his decision... which kinda blows away suggestions that it wasn't about the managers.

As I've said all along Draw your own conclusions, My conclusion is that Martinez has nowhere near the pull some people would have you believe and a guy who has been managing in this country for five minutes was able prize him away to a club that cant hold a candle to Everton.

Byram is not an Everton player and I have no further interest in talking about him.

I didn't present anything from the papers as fact. The only person who used the word 'fact' was you, when you tried to claim it was Martinez who had failed to do enough to persuade the kid to sign.