England ran out in Berlin against Germany tonight with no Everton players in the starting XI but Ross Barkley came on to help spark an epic second-half victory.
Roy Hodgson's side featured four Tottenham players but the Blues' contingent of John Stones, Barkley and Phil Jagielka were on the bench among eight other substitutes.
England fell behind in the first half to Toni Kroos's excellent low drive that crept past the injured Jack Butland at his near post.
Mario Gomez appeared to have put the hosts on their way to a convincing victory when he doubled the lead shortly before the hour mark but Harry Kane got England back into the match four minutes later.
The Spurs striker brought a half-cleared corner down before executing a Cruyff turn and firing inside the far post.
Barkley entered the fray with 20 minutes to go and it was his link-up play that contributed to the equaliser as he fed Nathaniel Clyne whose low centre was flicked home brilliantly by another substitute, Jamie Vardy.
The friendly was heading for a 2-2 draw when ex-Everton loanee, Eric Dier, rose highest to power home a headed winner from a corner in stoppage time.
England team to face Germany: (4-3-3) Butland; Clyne, Smalling, Cahill, Rose; Henderson, Dier, Alli; Lallana, Kane, Welbeck.
Reader Comments (101)
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1 Posted 26/03/2016 at 10:00:32
2 Posted 26/03/2016 at 12:49:16
3 Posted 26/03/2016 at 13:21:56
Ross continues to disappoint, lacking invention, almost no defence as of late. Jags, poor to moderate when the balls in the air, top notch otherwise. Leighton simply not played enough due to injury.
4 Posted 26/03/2016 at 14:58:51
Rose is one of the worst defensive full backs in the Premier League. On form, Cahill, Smalling, Henderson, Lallana and Clyne should not be in the team. The whole England set-up is a joke, and has been for a long time; the fact that Hodgson is still the manager proves that.
I hope Germany play England off the pitch and score six Â– and I don't like Germany.
5 Posted 26/03/2016 at 16:06:38
6 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:08:14
7 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:14:43
Couldn't careless pointless international break.
8 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:19:41
9 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:23:29
That's the way I see it too, give the important members of the squad a rest on Tuesday and let the lesser players have a run-out at Wembley.
Has there ever been a more pointless international break? I know some teams have World Cup 2018 qualifiers but those teams that are heading for the Euros aren't going to learn anything they didn't already know from this week of friendlies.
10 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:25:25
11 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:28:16
Shame to see a player we basically had first look at, Dier, seemingly about to become an international mainstay too. Good for him and all that, just another one that got away.
12 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:34:27
I'm not saying he should pick our lads but ffs Clyne? Rose? La-fucking-llana? Even turnip head had more of a clue than Roy has. I've also heard he's determined to take Wilshere along even if he's still on crutches and going through two packs a day.
13 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:41:51
Another ex-RS... the mind boggles.
14 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:47:06
However, Alli and Kane, both starting tonight. Nowhere near the team on Tuesday. Both Leicester players start on Tuesday. More time for the press and sponsors faves to recover, avoid injury.
It's almost as if there's millions of pounds at stake and Leicester winning them (by not spending them) would not be be appreciated.
15 Posted 26/03/2016 at 19:47:55
16 Posted 26/03/2016 at 20:06:15
17 Posted 26/03/2016 at 20:14:21
18 Posted 26/03/2016 at 20:33:17
19 Posted 26/03/2016 at 20:42:14
David, it's obvious Roy is under orders from his bosses to play the sky faves first so they get a decent rest before next week.
20 Posted 26/03/2016 at 20:49:32
21 Posted 26/03/2016 at 20:51:14
22 Posted 26/03/2016 at 20:55:38
Do England look good, or are Germany playing the game like it's a friendly, whereas England are putting a lot more into it?
Back to Hoddle, made a stupid statement, which he must regret, and the press jumped all over it, to get him the sack.
Hodgson said England, played like Germany, at times, during the last World Cup, and kept his job?
23 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:14:17
Fancy saying things like that to the press about your players during a World Cup! Also, he made a terrible terrible error by not taking Gazza to that World Cup!
The late Bobby Robson was the last good manager England had . Sorry guys, just my 2 cents worth!
24 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:21:45
25 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:25:56
26 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:30:39
27 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:34:51
28 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:43:21
England played with ten men against a very good Argentina, and were robbed, when Sol Campbell got a goal disallowed in extra time, for nothing.
I still think that only one team is really taking it serious tonight, but England deserve a lot of credit for coming back from two down to beat the World Champions!
29 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:47:33
So was Skodran Mustafi??
We let a good one slip in Dier there.
30 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:49:19
Hats off to Hodgkiss tonight. He was right, I was wrong.
31 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:49:47
Well done to England and made the best goalkeeper (arguably) in the world look somewhat ordinary. Butland got beaten from distance while standing flat footed and was too slow to react. Sorry for his injury but is he really the best England has to offer after Hart?
32 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:51:33
33 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:51:58
Same thing happened with Rooney and Ronaldo it was never a sending off, it's just that the Latins are masters of underhand tactics!
34 Posted 26/03/2016 at 21:59:41
Tony, Shearer elbowed their goalie (Roa?) in the face, needlessly, before Campbell scored. Shearer was always doing that.
35 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:04:10
36 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:05:58
37 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:13:02
38 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:19:31
As much as Rooney has been a great player over the years, there's no doubt he's slowed down a lot and seems to have lost that edge that he had in his younger years.
Vardy is priceless for the sheer nuisance factor he offers you, and he's no slouch in front of goal either is he?
Kane has been brilliant for two seasons and reminds me of a combination of Alan Shearer, Ian Wright and a touch of Lineker about him, his shot accuracy and power is unerring at times.
It sounds weird but this England might actually get me interested and a little bit excited this summer, for the first time since Euro 96.
It has a squad of hungry eager men a bit like that squad Terry Venables assembled in the mid '90s and not just so called big names that thrived with failure between then and now.
39 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:31:14
I never saw that elbow Colin, probably because I thought the keeper was getting nowhere near the cross.
I thought Rooney's was a lot worse than Beckham's, Colin, because there was more malice in it. But when you play top level, in any sport, you can't afford to be so stupid.
People lauded England's golden generation, especially the midfield of Gerard and Lampard. It used to make me wonder, because I actually thought the Spanish had better midfielders playing in The Premier League at that time.
Mark 34, that's what impressed me tonight about England. They played with real energy. Not sure The Germans, were really up for it tonight, but England's energy, was really impressive.
40 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:32:38
41 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:35:21
I know some are not enthusiastic around England, and some see friendlies as a waste of time, but we can all learn.
Tonight I learned that Clyne is not tall enough, or defensively aware. I hope that some bods from Everton were watching and have it in mind for the derby game.
42 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:56:59
At least the England players were finding space so he could find them with a pass, not something that happens enough with our players.
I wish the lad would believe in himself and be more adventurous, I think we would see a lot better player.
43 Posted 26/03/2016 at 22:59:24
44 Posted 26/03/2016 at 23:11:15
45 Posted 26/03/2016 at 23:14:00
46 Posted 26/03/2016 at 23:20:16
47 Posted 26/03/2016 at 00:06:48
He's become the epitome of an old-time pro footballer to me, unlike some of the conceited tarts currently posing as superstars. He works so, so hard for the team, including hunting down defenders when they have possession (and he admits Ranieri and Pearson before him makes it compulsory by the way) and maximises what's inside him. Whenever he speaks to the media, he says that same thing too. Zero bullshit, maximum performance on and off the field, period.
I hope it's infectious and that certain young "superstars" of ours get infected this week.
48 Posted 27/03/2016 at 00:32:39
Vardy may well be the kind of player we want on the pitch, but I'd be careful when lauding the man as a role-model.
The guy is an obnoxious scrote.
49 Posted 27/03/2016 at 00:52:12
"Vardy may well be the kind of player we want on the pitch, but I'd be careful when lauding the man as a role-model.
The guy is an obnoxious scrote."
Now, who am I expected to believe Phil? You, someone who has probably never met or spoken with the lad and who in all likelihood has no first-hand knowledge of him?
All the pros quoted in this article who have worked with him since his non-league days...?
50 Posted 27/03/2016 at 02:36:27
51 Posted 27/03/2016 at 02:57:31
Might sound sad, but it's hard to get up for a friendly, were Lallana, Henderson, and Clyne feature, after a bog standard season.
I think Clyne is half-decent, but behind Walker in the pecking order, Henderson is bang average, and Lallana is shite.
I thought the Spurs lads did well, I felt a bit for Butland, and Germany took too many chances around the defence.
When Ross came on, I watched Ross. He was typical Ross tbf, could and should have got more involved, although sometimes went searching for the ball, and was ignored.
Anyways, the most interesting thing for me was each time he had the ball, he moved it forward. It almost proves that he is slightly shackled by Martinez. Yes he is allowed push on, but he is far too concerned with his pass-completion rate, than his killer-pass rate.
Ross needs to play without fear, without stats, without Martinez. He needs to take chances, as all good attacking mids do. You have never seen Zidane or Ronaldinho worrying about percentages, they express themselves and attack. Even if they are to big to mention, Sigardson at Swansea is the same, Payet at West ham too, they express themselves and don't worry about their percent rate.
Maybe I'm just that far gone with the anti-Martinez thing, but I saw a lad who probed at defences when on the ball, instead of passing two yards and asking for a wall pass, as Ross has done a lot this season.
Just an observation...
52 Posted 27/03/2016 at 03:49:27
Maybe a lot of times it's a simple matter of there not being sufficient movement ahead of Ross for him to even consider attempting to slip a pass through? Lukaku, for all his improvement this season, still spends large parts of a game offering himself only as a static target. We've seen several times, when Lukaku does suddenly decide to drift away from his marker and into space, Ross is ready, willing and able to play the ball early for him to run on to.
Apart from Romelu and Ross himself, we don't really possess any other players prepared (or, if you prefer, perhaps permitted?) to burst forward through the middle. The only other options in that instance are to spread it out wide, go yourself, or turn and play it back.
53 Posted 27/03/2016 at 04:21:46
Do I condone Vardy's well-publicised racist outburst at the casino, fuelled on alcohol and gambling in the small hours of the morning?
Am I totally convinced by the (inevitable) contrite apologies that he uttered when the story went public?
Again, absolutely not.
Do I understand that some were deeply offended by his words and considered he should have been sacked by Leicester and kicked out of football?
Absolutely I do.
Do I think just because you are a 'celebrity' with a particular skill that any anti-social behaviour on your part should be waived because you are a 'special case?'
Do I think that people in the public eye or not merit another chance if they err?
Absolutely I do.
Do I think it's trite and glib to call someone like Vardy 'an obnoxious scrote' on a fan's forum without justifying such an extreme offensive comment?
Absolutely I do.
Clear enough for you, John?
55 Posted 27/03/2016 at 06:09:50
56 Posted 27/03/2016 at 06:31:40
Ross did well when brought on. Had more focus than he seems to have under Martinez.
Alli was superb and should replace Rooney who's time has gone.
No way is Rose better than Baines.
Smalling and Henderson were embarrassing. What does Henderson do apart from run around a lot? Certainly can't find the target with his shooting, I counted three opportunities, not one on target.
Vardy produced a bit of magic and Kane led the line well. Lallana was poor in his distribution and final pass. Felt sorry for Butland.
57 Posted 27/03/2016 at 07:01:08
I didn't realise I had to justify myself to be honest. I figured everyone had seen the incident which drew so much publicity.
And I'd hardly call my wording 'an extreme offensive' comment. Who are you? Mary Whitehouse?
58 Posted 27/03/2016 at 07:31:19
You obviously know the reason why Phil would label Vardy an obnoxious scrote. You've probably seen for yourself the footage of him acting like an obnoxious scrote. You say you fully understand why people would be offended by such obnoxiously scrotish behaviour. You doubt any real sincerity lay behind his 'Soz, I was rat arsed' words of regret in relation to him being recorded and revealed to be an obnoxious scrote.
So, why would you find Phil choosing to call him an obnoxious scrote objectionable and then try to counter with a crappy fluff piece from fellow pro's (one of whom actually attempts to justify his pal acting a racist cock in a casino by saying 'Well.....Jamie's from Sheffield. Proper rough round there'), full of praise for the players footballing ability and attitude towards the game and say this is what I would rather believe?
You may consider the labelling of Vardy "trite and glib", but I believe it absolutely appropriate. Racism in football is still swept under the carpet far too often. The powers that be make a big show about taking a stand, but how often are such words actually backed up?
The fact Vardy was caught on camera being a racist Dewey Crowe looking dickhead, ranting and raving at members of the public for no good reason and had to be restrained in a headlock, before copping a 'no real consequences' fine from his club and told to 'crack on with it mate' should....at the very least....be given equal prominence in his season's story, rather than forgotten about as people rush to focus on the rise to fame 'fairy tale'.
59 Posted 27/03/2016 at 08:55:40
I'm not so sure that Rose is "no way better than Baines".
I think between the years of 2009 and 2013 Leighton Baines was the best English fullback in the Premier League, maybe the most consistent left back in Europe.
But, over the last three years, a combination of injury and poor form has seen him lose a lot of the powers he once possessed, in my opinion.
For me, he slows down the pace too much now, always wanting to put his foot on the ball and role the ball slowly in field rather than bomb down the touchline like he once made his trademark.
His set-piece expertise has also dried up to a near standstill these days; I can't remember even last season when he last beat the wall with a free-kick in a dangerous area.
He's also not (never has been) the greatest defender.
I personally think Rose will be ahead of Baines now in the pecking order; I think Rose is also ahead of Gibbs who I've never massively rated.
These days, fullbacks have lung-busting energy levels.
60 Posted 27/03/2016 at 09:23:27
I myself am not perfect and, when under the influence of alcohol, have done and said things that I am not proud of. As I am sure most people have, if they are honest enough to admit it. So I for one am prepared to give Vardy the benefit of the doubt on this one occasion. Of course, should it happen again then I will reconsider my position.
61 Posted 27/03/2016 at 09:31:00
Fair point on Barkley's situation at the Blues, it's something I've quite often discussed with my dad at the game.
Ross is either too far forward to pick passes, as he only really ever has one pass ahead of him, Rom. Ross would pick killer passes all day in a Man City or Arsenal side, with team mates who have bags of quality and great movement.
If we played with either two strikers or/and two wingers ahead of Ross, he would be frightening.
62 Posted 27/03/2016 at 09:34:34
I agree with you too over Cahill.
My fear would be silly Woy would make Henderson captain.
This would grate on my nerves soooooooo much that I'd possibly never be able to support England again.
63 Posted 27/03/2016 at 09:34:38
I thought the same thing right from the off. Is this Everton in disguise. And then losing a two goal lead and get beat with minutes to go.
64 Posted 27/03/2016 at 10:22:55
All the Spurs lads did well. Ali is a major talent and he's only 19. It was good to see him and Ross on the pitch together and Ross showed some nice touches when he came on.
Clyne is a decent player, but Henderson and Lallana are very average. As for Rose, that was a much more dynamic performance than Baines has been putting in and I suspect that the latter's days of first or even second choice are over.
Jagielka or Stones must stand a chance of a game on Tuesday given Cahill's performance. Smalling is okay. England have some very good young players and we can see a changing of the guard. It might even be worth watching them in the Euros.
65 Posted 27/03/2016 at 10:34:50
Baines's habit now of slowing down the pace is purely due to the lack of a Pienaar type player with whom he can interchange passes and attack down the wing, knowing that there is cover for him. How often is Baines left with two players to mark these days now that Martinez turns out a side with such poor balance?
His dovetailing with Pienaar was half of our attacking power and it has now been lacking since the partnership was broken up due, mainly, to injury. He has also never had a partnership at International level; England never played to his strengths.
66 Posted 27/03/2016 at 10:38:58
As for Woy criticising Barkley, he is right to; he isn't the Messiah that some Evertonians think. He's lazy, he's ill-disciplined and his decision-making is woeful.
Unless he has the ball, he isn't interested. He has ability in abundance but his mind isn't that of a top footballer and a lot of that is poor man management.
67 Posted 27/03/2016 at 10:50:56
He did so last night when he readily acknowledged our boy's contribution when he came on as sub.
Problem is too many managers (near to home) can only make mealy mouthed comments about their charges and too many supporters lap it up!
68 Posted 27/03/2016 at 10:52:22
But these day's fullbacks are expected to burst through to the byline almost like wingers themselves, as much as Clyne might be defensively suspect he did get forward last night very well and put over some inviting crosses.
Baines used to do that when he was younger, his crossing was once the envy of many club's, but you can't put down his poor end product these days simply down to Steven Pienaar. That's almost like saying without Pienaar, Baines would never have been a good footballer, which of course is bull dust.
He was outstanding Baines, but since the midway point of Martinez's first season his form has never been the same and it was that very period when Bryan Oviedo came into the team that for me we played our most dynamic football, Oviedo, an average player not a great one himself, just opened our eyes to a slightly different way of playing in the fullback position.
Like with Steven Pienaar over the years, Baines has been one of my favourite Everton players, but I'm a realist, he's not the player he was four or five years ago.
69 Posted 27/03/2016 at 11:24:43
70 Posted 27/03/2016 at 11:25:55
I agree with almost all of your post; however, the breaking up of the Baines - Pienaar axis was, in my mind, instrumental to Baines's loss of form. We have also seen Oviedo struggle with two players attacking his side due to Martinez and his round-hole, square-peg attitude to our left flank.
He has had ample opportunity to address the imbalance in our play but has insisted, because he knows best, that Cleverley, Naismith, Barkley, etc are the answer to the problem.
In the recent cameos that Baines has played, he has shown something of the Baines we all know and love but, if he's struggling with an injury, as reported, then he will appear to be a lesser player than he once was.
71 Posted 27/03/2016 at 11:30:54
72 Posted 27/03/2016 at 11:44:56
It has been like this for the last two seasons and is down to the manager and his coaching dogma. He will not learn or change his style and Barkley will not improve under him.
73 Posted 27/03/2016 at 12:05:01
Rooney would have never missed that sitter. He may be a yard slower but certainly has composure in front of goal.
74 Posted 27/03/2016 at 12:10:31
Alli missed a sitter but it was Vardy's alertness that set it up for him. Barkley needs to play further back and he needs more options in front of him than just a static Lukaku.
75 Posted 27/03/2016 at 12:19:59
That's a good point.
Rooney is still a quality player despite his exaggerated demise.
Past his peak, of course, but his 'football intelligence' remains and he still has a lot to offer.
76 Posted 27/03/2016 at 12:23:51
77 Posted 27/03/2016 at 12:53:00
John (#52), also think you have it bang on, when you talk about Lukaku's lack of movement. Did you hear what Vardy said about his goal when he got interviewed?
He talked about trying to get across the defender and ATTACKING the front post something Lukaku, very rarely does.
It must be hard playing upfront and getting isolated sometimes, but when the cross comes in, you have got to try and get across defenders, especially when your team get so few bodies in the box.
78 Posted 27/03/2016 at 12:57:03
There's an outstanding player within him struggling to get out, if only he would take the shackles off. While he's at it, he needs to get stuck in and tackle the opposition sometimes also!
79 Posted 27/03/2016 at 13:02:22
The Euros may be a bit early for them but the squad that finished the game looked very promising to me. FWIW American here and I really don't have anything invested in this team except rooting against them much of the time. I'm interested in seeing how this younger squad develops.
80 Posted 27/03/2016 at 13:02:47
I also think Welbeck is a big asset to have playing on the left of the front three, he has also worked on his game after a terrible injury and, for me, looks the part in an England shirt.
Wayne's place in the squad is not under threat for Euro 16, unlike the Arsenal trio of Theo, Oxlade and Smoking Jack all of whom have not progressed like Kane and Welbeck have in the past 12 months.
81 Posted 27/03/2016 at 14:40:55
Nobody, I hope, will accept his obnoxious behaviour off the field. I've met him, years ago, in a bar. He was totally contrite about having let himself down at that time (he got "tagged" by the courts as a result) and said he had a problem with his temper if he had too much to drink. He was drinking J2O's, neat, at the time among a lot of boozy backslappers desperate to get him one in.
Clearly at Leicester he let himself down. That said, the target was as I recall it an oriental man. I don't condone racism in any way at all but there's a difference between racially disparaging people from anywhere else in the world and disparaging those to whom we in Britain delivered slavery for centuries, followed by decades of systemic in-house abuse and violence.
Both types are reprehensible, but one is far worse than the other.
I don't believe any young man deserves to be penalised so severely that he can never work again because of an outburst like Vardy's. It's not even close to the antics of Adam Johnson for example. Jamie Vardy is not, and has never claimed to be, any sort of public role model........but he can be to other forwards who struggle to get their head round the need to work just as hard without the ball as they do with it.
82 Posted 27/03/2016 at 15:03:54
As to no blues playing, well why would they? They have been pretty poor all season and we are wallowing in mid-table mediocrity. Makes sense to play players who are above us in the table, especially Spurs players.
You would like to think that this would be a kick up the backside to our players to try and perform much better to give themselves a chance to regain their place in the England team; however, I suspect they will do nothing of the sort and will continue their all-round poor play when the international break is over.
83 Posted 27/03/2016 at 15:57:26
Let's see how good Alli is next season when every centre-midfield has his number.
84 Posted 27/03/2016 at 16:06:18
You sometimes wonder what people are on!!
85 Posted 27/03/2016 at 16:39:49
86 Posted 27/03/2016 at 17:03:12
Filtering out your usual bluster and blather, let's see if an intelligent exchange can break out between us.
My original reply to Phil Sammon was a simple understated counter to his unsupported one-line condemnation of Vardy (presumably related to the incident at the casino), showing how the player has been liked and admired by many people over many years.
What do we have here exactly? A testosterone-filled athlete, out on the town in the wee hours of the morning, fuelled by alcohol and 'edgy' from playing high stakes gambling, behaves obnoxiously for a couple of minutes in his life.
Phil (and he's not alone, I'm sure) is seemingly prepared to label and condemn Vardy for all eternity for this indiscretion.
For those with the nous to see it, some might consider it somewhat ironic that Phil is, in his own way, demonstrating a prejudice and intolerance similar to that for which he condemns Vardy.
You John, given that you repeated the phrase 'x' number of times, also apparently belong in the camp that regards Vardy as 'an obnoxious scrote.'
May I say John that you also are 'an obnoxious scrote.' And so am I. And so is Phil Sammon.
Why do I write that? Because in the fullness of my lifetime, I have on occasion (oftimes under the influence of alcohol) behaved as 'an obnoxious scrote,' embarrassing family, friends, colleagues or complete strangers with my words or actions. In the sober light of the following day, on learning of my conduct, I have felt shame and contrition.
I would wager that every single one of us, on more than one occasion during our lifetime, has also behaved as 'an obnoxious scrote.'
And yet, as is often the case, some choose to ignore this uncomfortable truth in their rush to condemn others for their misdemeanours.
This reminds me a little of another thread on TW, many years ago. The 17-year-old Jose Baxter, it was reported by the Liverpool police, had been picked up with 2-3 adults in a car in which drugs were found.
The type and quantity of drug was never named. Who was in actual possession of the drugs was never established. TW went into meltdown, with many an 'outraged' poster trying to outdo the other with an increasingly overhyped sense of moral indignation. As far as I'm aware, there was no case ever pursued by the police, yet many a Judge Dredd in the Star Chambers of TW at the time wanted Baxter hung, drawn and quartered, without any evidence or charge being laid against him.
I have discussed with you previously John my opinion on the cult of celebrity and the unhealthy relationship 'twixt media and the public on how the current flavour of the month is built up, then chopped down. Vardy is yet another example of that typical genre of tabloid journalism. That is not to excuse him.
Have I at any time in this thread denied, as your wrote, that the Vardy casino story NOT "be given equal prominence in his season's story, rather than forgotten about as people rush to focus on the rise to fame 'fairy tale'."
Not at all. It is right and proper he should be 'outed' for it. Equally, I think it right and proper that we hear of the 'good' side of Vardy. Don Alexander, for example, in this very thread offers an alternative view of the lad to Phil Sammon and your own.
Now, whilst I respect all faiths and the beliefs of others, I am not a religious man myself. That said, there is wisdom to be found in religious texts and a couple come to mind in relation to this question:
"There but for the grace of God go I" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
But to close and weave this altogether into a single conclusion:
* it is possible to condemn Vardy for his obnoxious conduct at the casino that evening
* it is possible to be tolerant towards him when taking into consideration a greater span of his life rather than solely focus on an ugly two minutes
* it is possible to hold the above views simultaneously AND be totally opposed to racism, or any other form of prejudice, both in football and in society at large
87 Posted 27/03/2016 at 17:07:38
The only choice I disagreed with was Henderson. I am not sure how he can re-integrate Rooney back into this team. Rooney has been great in the past but offers less on the pitch these days. He is a leader though and has value in that respect.
As for Lallana, I do not understand the criticism. I think he will prove himself to be a top class player in the next few years. He has movement, vision and skill to execute this. I think it is fabulous for Ross to be in the squad regularly. He can learn a lot from his Enland team-mates.
88 Posted 27/03/2016 at 17:09:23
That said, England did play very well both in bouts during the first half but particularly in the second half. Bar a couple of panic attacks in front of goal by Lallana and Alli, England's goal tally would have been much better. That said, there is still a long way to go before England are really capable of challenging at either the Euros or World Cup.
Barkley did play well when he came on and he showed me once again that he does have vision and can spot a pass when it is needed. I think using him and Alli in the middle of the park could be a real plus for England, as would playing two up front. Until Vardy came on, Kane often found himself in a 1 v 2 scenario and having to chase the ball as people like Henderson and Lallana really didn't provide the service he needs.
I also was very aware that English players' ability to cross when compared to the Germans was pretty poor. The first half, the Germans showed how you put the ball in the box and can land it on the striker's head pretty much every time.
Until the corner, England had real issues managing to hit an English player with a cross from open play. And that is a real problem at Everton where our crossing is amongst the worst I have ever seen.
89 Posted 27/03/2016 at 17:11:05
In answer to your question "Who are you? Mary Whitehouse?"
No, I'm not. Read my above reply to John Daley.
A question of my own to you.
Who are you? Judge Dredd, sat in the Star Chamber?
90 Posted 27/03/2016 at 17:24:34
Maybe you should stay off the ale if you are a self-confessed Scrote when you have a drink. That's a huge admission, I'm not sure TW is the right forum for this kind of self- insight and disclosure though. Perhaps going to a meeting would be preferable. Keep coming back, Jay ;)
91 Posted 27/03/2016 at 17:47:14
92 Posted 27/03/2016 at 17:49:54
I can't really remember the name of the poster but I recall the dispute in summer 2014 during pre-season and it was just prior to completing the Lukaku deal, I spoke of Spurs being a rival of ours for the coming season (how times change in 2 year's) and that they had a top class striker in Harry Kane, I was hit with the reply that we didn't need a striker as we've got Chris Long, who's apparently better than Kane.
Who knows it might even have been Chris Long himself taking the piss!!!
93 Posted 27/03/2016 at 17:53:27
94 Posted 27/03/2016 at 21:34:16
"...some might consider it somewhat ironic that Phil is, in his own way, demonstrating a prejudice and intolerance similar to that for which he condemns Vardy."
There's no irony there at all. How is calling someone 'a scrote' for actually acting like a scrote (and there's absolutely no question whether how he acted qualifies as the behaviour of 'a scrote' or not. We've all seen it and there's no way of viewing it any differently) similar in any way to racial abuse? They're in no way comparable, in the eyes of civilised society or the law. To put forward the contention that one is somehow akin to the other doesn't require "nous". It's just fucking nonsense.
You can't be "totally opposed to racism" in one breath, but be "simultaneously tolerant" of someone caught spouting racist shite in the next. There's no shades of gray when it comes to the subject matter. It's like a Jewish studio head saying 'Hang on a minute. Mel Gibson may have said our people were solely responsible for every single war that's ever taken place, but let's not lose sight of the fact he was in fucking Max Mad 2: The Road Warrior' as well'.
So what if he was tanked up and his mates say he's not normally such a twat. Vardy has a choice in his behaviour, his beliefs and when and where he chooses to air them. The fact he was under the influence of booze doesn't matter one iota in my book (the fact he might have a tuftier ball sack than Teen Wolf and maybe suffered a total fucking mare of a night placing bets is utterly irrelevant as well, Jay). Racism can't be passed off as a drunken mishap or a mistake like falling arse over tit, chucking up on someone else's kebab or getting involved in a bit of aggro.
The press 'building him up, only to knock him down' part you put forward is again totally besides the point. Did they put the words in his mouth, egg him on or spike his bevvy with just three big letters of alphabet spaghetti? (Pop a J in his pint. Pop an A in his pint. Pop a P in his pint. Stand back and watch him turn into a racist prick. Result!).
The Jose Baxter story you bring up bears no similarity to the Vardy situation and is just sidetracking. So, Baxter was previously condemned on ToffeeWeb without people knowing the facts and without the benefit of any evidence, in your opinion? What's that got to do with anything? Vardy was condemned on the basis of video evidence, eye witness accounts and his own admission of guilt.
Whether or not this one incident should be held over Vardy forever and ever and ever is a different kettle of fish entirely to whether someone is within their rights to say, 'well, hang on a minute', when the guy is being spoken of as some sort of shining example to other pro's, a mere seven months later.
Banging in a few goals for an unfancied side, getting into the England squad and being called a scrote on ToffeeWeb sure as shit doesn't qualify as the footballing equivalent of Albi sitting down to scoff a bit of bubble gum pie with a badly burned Albanian boy:
95 Posted 27/03/2016 at 22:53:44
I'm sick to death of over reactions like yours to isolated incidents. If he was at it habitually, you might have something to get upset about, but even the best of us drop the ball on occasion. It's called fallibility aka bad judgement aka the human condition.
Yes, he shouldn't have done it, it was idiotic and way out of order, but get some perspective; it's not like he's rigging himself with explosives and running into airports shouting "die, infidel dogs". Why not reserve your lengthy diatribes for that?
96 Posted 27/03/2016 at 22:56:46
Most were saying Barkley was the best England player by a mile, even if I thought Stones, playing on the right side, looked the best player that day.
Anyway someone posted that England never change with the big target man, Kane, looking like a young Lee Chapman. I thought the poster was bang on, because Kane looked very awkward to me.
Fast forward nearly three years, and the transformation has been incredible. It just shows that when you combine hard work with raw talent, what can happen, because Harry Kane has turned into a really good footballer. A lesson for any kid who wants to become a top player!
97 Posted 27/03/2016 at 23:22:29
What next - 'that Adam Johnson, it was only an isolated incident as he has only ever groomed the one 15 year old and it was only bad judgement. It's political correctness gone mad from these lefty PC keyboard warrior types and their Human Rights Act nonsense'
98 Posted 27/03/2016 at 23:38:30
I'll be sure to remember your words next time some piss head spits the word 'chinky' in my wife's face, Jay. In fact, following your train of thought, I should first pause to ask him if he's ever 'dropped the ball' in a similar fashion before or if this just a one off offence, before deciding how I should react.
After all, it's only fair to consider the perpetrator's point of view and past history, carefully building up a full character profile before deciding whether you believe his actions, right there and then, at that moment in time, are those of a racist dick.
"Drop the ball"? He wanted dropping on his fucking arse.
99 Posted 27/03/2016 at 23:40:36
Ironically she also said Adam Johnson isn't a Paedophile and he shouldn't be branded as such, because it was an isolated incident and bad judgement.
100 Posted 28/03/2016 at 00:38:38
He hasn't got a sort of life sentence as a klansman and his human rights have not been trampled on by being called a scrote on ToffeeWeb; as if he should give a fuck anyway.
101 Posted 28/03/2016 at 00:41:41
First, you pull me up on my observation that "... some might consider it somewhat ironic that Phil is, in his own way (my highlights), demonstrating a prejudice and intolerance similar to that for which he condemns Vardy" and make the leap that I am stating Phil Sammon's comments are (to quote you) "similar ... to racial abuse."
I don't make that connection at all. Thus my words 'in his own way.' That is YOU who makes that claim, a contrivance to muddy the waters. Basically, your allegation (to again quote you), well ... "It's just fucking nonsense."
Unlike your own ramblings, my first post to you in this thread was succinct, unambiguous and to the point. I reinforced those points in the conclusion of my second post to you. There is no conflict in the 3 bullet points I make in that conclusion as you try to claim. But once again you take what I very clearly stated out of context and re-frame what I actually did say to better fit your profiling of me.
You evidently take an absolutist position on the question of racism, categorically stating: "There's no shades of gray when it comes to the subject matter."
You are simply wrong, John. There can be mitigating circumstances in anti-social behaviour, be it racism or otherwise. Rather than condemn and exile individuals for all eternity on their failings, believe it or not there exists re-educating and rehabilitation programs that can help the offender learn the error of their ways which can have many positive impacts for society at large beyond the individual concerned.
In both my posts I am very clear: I don't condone Vardy's conduct. I don't believe celebrities should be exempt from social norms if they behave badly. I consider it quite right that Vardy was 'outed' on the casino story.
Similarly, I made no claim that the Jose Baxter story I used bears any similarity to the Vardy case. Once again, that is an invention by YOU. If you read that passage of my post again I was making a wider point of how frequently, in cases of real or perceived wrong-doing, a mob mentality takes over towards 'the accused', with people competing for the title of the 'Most Morally Offended and Indignant.'
To close, as my "doppelganger" Jay WoodS writes (and believe me, he and I do not see eye to eye on many matters ... I don't even agree with all he writes in his post), but he is correct in saying "even the best of us drop the ball on occasion. It's called fallibility, aka bad judgement, aka the human condition."
It is your right John to maintain the absolutist position on such issues as you have demonstrated here.
Me? I am happy to retain my right to have an apparently more tolerant stance on the same issues and to challenge such glib and trite comments (as I view them) from those who themselves at times also display the 'obnoxious scrote' behaviour they label others with.
Fair enough ..?
102 Posted 28/03/2016 at 00:53:49
Do keep up, chaps. Address the correct poster ...
There is a considerable difference in the views and writing style between myself (Jay WOOD) and my doppelganger, (Jay WOODS).
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