Favourites aren't always the best, Part 8

Great pick on all counts. How we could do with his type of leadership on the pitch right now!

As you say, he singlehandedly turned Leeds United around.

Thanks again John, not least for the research.

I couldn't believe we had signed such a great player as Bobby, someone to watch each week and boast about. As Steve says (above) he'd knock some life into most of the present squad. Thanks for picking him John, and thanks for the wonderful memories Bobby.

My "Special Mention" pick at #8 is the elegant Martin Dobson. Never seemed to be rushed, he covered the ground without ever seeming to break into a sprint, he was excellent in the air, everything he did oozed class.

I think if memory serves me correctly the year he left to go to Leeds he won the player of the year award. I had to laugh when you mentioned the Royal Tiger club, I used to go in there on a Saturday and players from both Everton and Liverpool were there.

I remember Alex Young and Jimmy Gabriel being there one Saturday chatting away with Ian St John and Ron Yeats from Liverpool.

Thanks John.

I always struggle in thinking of who my favourite player of all time is and it's always a mental fight between Bobby Collins; Alex Young and Alan Ball.

The Manchester City game you mention when we won 4-2 was the first time I had also seen Denis Law but the only thing I can recall was the maroon/purple shirts worn by Manchester City as I had never seen a football kit in such a strange colour!

As Steve (#1) – says, boy could we do with this wee giant in today's team. He would do Allardyce's job for him!

I'm pulling together a paper on the ERT history so let me have anything you may have on the club that could be useful or pertinent.

Thanks,

On a more amusing note. I spent 1958-59 in Canada as a 19-year-old. I was living with an older brother and his family, a dyed-in-the-wool Red, when we played Spurs. The football results were in the local papers in very small print. I saw the result 10-4. and immediately thought it was a misprint and told my brother that we had beaten Tottenham 4-0. I just didn't believe that the "1" in front of the "0" could possibly be true. It was!!!

In that game Jimmy Harris scored 3 despite the 10 at the other end. Compared to today we at least had 4 shots on goal I don't care that Spurs had at least 10.

Bobby Collins was still the best... at least until another superb Scott came along

I've enjoyed all your trips down memory lane, your recollections predate my own but it's always good to be reminded of our past heroes. But Collins and Ring are two of my favourite Everton players of all time. And both enjoyed Everton careers that were far too short for different reasons.

Great series of articles.

Hi Dave [3], this is the post I left for you on the part 7 thread, regarding Jimmy Payne, "I certainly do remember him, if memory serves me right he signed on Thursday and played on Saturday, I'm afraid you have got your facts mixed up, his first game was against Blackpool on 21 April 1956, Peter Farrell scoring the only goal of the game. I actually attended that game, the last game of the season. It was the only time I saw him in an Everton jersey, because I went into the army in August of that year.

His first game the following season was an away game against Sunderland a 1-1 draw, on 2 February 1957, you're right in saying that he played against Charlton Athletic a 5-0 victory when he scored one of the goals, the others coming from Jimmy Harris 2, Wally Fielding, and Jimmy Gauld.

Again you're correct in saying that he played against Manchester United in a 1-0 FA Cup defeat. He then played in a 2-0 loss to Arsenal at Highbury, followed by a 4-1 home defeat to Preston North end, he actually scored Everton's goal.

His record for Everton is 6 appearances and 2 goals, before retiring through injury, he then, as you say, ran a newsagents, I believe it was in Aintree Road Bootle.

You're allowed the occasional mistake Dave, after all it was nearly 62 years ago; fortunately for me, I have my research department to fall back on.

A brilliant article for the terrific Bobby Collins. I saw his debut at Maine Road, went with my Uncle. He showed me where he was crying at half time, when he was at the semi-final versus 4-0 down to Bolton Wanderers in 1953.

John you have told us in detail about Bobby. But I believe he only took a number four boot, can you enlighten?

Ray (13), if I had been with you I could have shown you the spot where I felt like crying at that semi final with a Red supporter laughing his bollocks off at the score,

Benny Maloney, a great lad, but I fuckin' hated you that day.

I still can't understand why Harry Catterick moved him on, and how he sold Alan Ball to Arsenal, two bizarre decisions by the great man.

Unfortunately, your posts which have taken us away from our current woes have now brought us to last summer – assuming there was a little bit of thought given to how Rooney, Sigurdsson and Klaassen might assimilate into the same team, I am now desperately wondering how you are going to fit Alan Ball into yours!

Digressing slightly, Ray (#13) mentions Bobby's boot size as 4 – I too have read this. Anyone remember Willie Carlin, a scouser who played one game for (dare I say it?) the RS, but later found fame with Derby County? He was my father-in-law's cousin and I seem to remember was known for wearing the smallest boots in the Football League!

Dave, I hope you understand that if I didn't have my research department, I wouldn't be able to provide so much information, I don't want to come across as a smart Alec.

Christy, the sale of Bobby and Alan Ball were probably the biggest mistakes of Harry Catterick's managerial career. There were rumours doing the rounds regarding Alan Ball's departure, Catterick was reported as saying "It will all come out in time" It's probably just as well that it hasn't.

Peter, when managers say that they enjoy having too many players to choose from, trust me they're telling lies, but then again their choice doesn't run into hundreds, and span 60 years.

I think? Willie played for England schoolboys and was at Liverpool with fellow southender Ian Callaghan, I saw him in the players lounge at Nottm Forest on the day of the Bradford fire tragedy, I think his son was on Forest's books at that time, a fine little player.

Having played once for Liverpool, he was transferred to Halifax Town where he played 95 league games and scored 32 goals

He then moved to Carlisle United 93 games including 1 substitute appearance, and 21 goals.

Sheffield United 36 games 3 goals.

Derby County 89 games 14 goals.

Leicester City 31 games 1 goal.

Notts County 60 games including 3 substitute appearances 2 goals.

BB Cardiff City 22 games and 1 goal.

Not bad for a career that lasted from 1959 to 1974. Those figures do not include FA Cup fixtures.

He or Colin Harvey are the best Everton players of my time and no player whom we have signed on a transfer in the past 60 years has had such an impact. Alex Young is my favourite Everton player, but Collins was simply the best.

Catterick made three terrible mistakes, he got rid of Collins, Vernon and Ball far too soon and it's no coincidence that they were all very independent men who knew their own mind.

These articles have drawn posts from some of the most knowledgeable people on this website. Sometimes you just have to sit back and learn.

Such a refreshing change from reading painfully long winded selective "research" put up here by newer if-it-cant-be-googled-it-didn't-happen type of poster.

Well done Sir

John; Collins was my first hero and this time your favourite was the best. Just like it (nearly) was Ball and 10 others, so it was with Collins.

My first memory of him was '59 or '60 squaring up to a 6ft-3in centre-half... who had the good sense to know when he was out weighted.

I liked your bit about how he hardly touched a drop and with the current thing about the Full English Breakfast at Finch Farm, He obviously like his meat. We has a Butchers shop on County Rd, He and many of the players, mainly the Scottish ones, Parker and Brown I remember most, used to come in for with a list of stuff for their wives. I had a steady supply of autographed paper bags to sell or swap.

Collins was as hard as nails... at his size I suppose you had to be... but he was never dirty. When he went to Leeds and Revie wanted them to get in first and unsettle teams, unlike the other faux hard men like Bremner (I still laugh at that picture of a real hardman, Dave Mackay, gripping him by the collar / throat and nearly lifting him of his feet for some sly snide kick) and Revie's snide in chief, Giles... he didn't have to resort to that sort of stuff...he just was.

Catterick got rid of players who had a mind of their own... but only if he thought they had either reached their 'use by' date/age (29/30?) or he had somebody better to replace them with.

Harry couldn't or wouldn't see that 29 or 30 was no longer the end of the road for players and some, the mentally disciplined ones, who looked after themselves could and in Collins's case did play on to a high standard.

Some say the foundation for the Title in 62-63 was laid by Carey; and that Catterick just 'tweaked it' a bit. I think there was a bit more to it than that. But replace Collins he did.

Poor old Dennis Stevens suffered for years, just by virtue of not being Bobby Collins... you wouldn't think it was that hard to fill size 3 boots.

Results proved Harry right in the short term – but history in the long-term, has the final say.

How different it might've been... how would you have fitted Collins, Kay, Gabriel, Young, Ball, Harvey and Kendall all in one team between Aug 66 and May 68?

Some good comments there, Derek, about the Leeds side that Collins joined. They were all good players and had no need to play so dirty, so was it Revie who was behind that tactic?

Collins, although hard as nails, wasn't sly and underhand, or a coward like Giles who would go over the top on someone and then hide behind Charlton. The oft mentioned "Battle Of Goodison" was a prime example of their filth.

Collins, Ball etc. should never have left when they did; it makes me question just how great Catterick was... Oh! for a John Carey type manager now.

So if he saw a mouthy player who he thought had peaked (rightly or wrongly) he then had two good reasons to move them on and if he made a profit on the deal that made three reasons. If he had a good/better, younger, player he could bring in, like Harvey, well that made for four reasons.

Carey though? He seemed a football purist of the Martinez sort...10-4?
Moores saw this, I think and brought in the more pragmatic Catterick. He rebuilt/ added/replaced Dunlop, Harris, Collins and Bingham amongst others... Then did it again over the next 6 seasons, with West, Labone and Morrissey making the cut.

So it's a Catterick we need... well actually it's John Moores I think but that's another story.

Hi Peter, the last paragraph in my post to you should have read, "Peter, when managers say that they enjoy having too many players to choose from, trust me they're telling lies, but then again their choice doesn't run into hundreds and span 70 years. I was knocking 10 years off my life, I started going to Goodison in 1948, when I was 10 years old.

Hi Rick [22], I hadn't thought of Roy Vernon when I was talking of Catterick's mistakes, and I did suggest that there was a bit of secrecy surrounding the Alan Ball transfer. I read on another thread that were related to Nel Tarleton, my uncle Phil was a boyhood friend of Nel's, he told me that he lived off Low Hill in the vicinity of Phythian Street, and my auntie Nora claimed that she taught Nel to dance, at Peppers Dance Hall on the corner of Aubrey Street and Everton Road.

Hi Darren [23], you're a man after my own heart. I have followed ToffeeWeb for a number of years submitting the occasional post, and I am dismayed at times, at the experts who know all there is to know about the running of a football club, man management, and tactical methods.

Regarding Google, I have to confess that although I possess one or two football books, (well in fact, one or two more, than one or two,) I have used Google to get as much information as I can, but I have stated that a lot of my stuff is from obituary notices, the authors of them have access to far more than I can lay my hands on.

Hi Derek [24], when you say you liked my bit about Bobby 'hardly touching a drop I imagine that's the part where it refers to him eschewing alcohol and tobacco, I have to confess that was part of an obituary notice. I did admit to that, saying that the author could express it far better than I could.

You are right to say that Dennis Stevens got a rough deal, he was found guilty of robbing Bobby's place (in the eyes of many supporters), but I think that he did enough in the end to win the fans respect.

Hi Ray [25], I had a ring side seat, so to speak, for what you describe as 'The battle of Goodison', we always stood behind the Park End goal, because the turnstiles were the first ones we came to. Johnny Giles started the trouble by going in, shall we say 'enthusiastically,' and Sandy Brown took exception to that, and unfortunately paid the price.

I became a blue because of Dave Hickson. When my dad was home (he was a merchant seaman), he went to the match whoever was at home and so watched both teams.

My first Everton match was the famous 8-4 against Plymouth and although Parker scored four, Hickson imprinted himself on my imagination. Hickson and the fact that we were promoted and Liverpool relegated at the end of 1953-54, made me a blue an exception on both sides of my family. Although another famous uncle, Ernie Roderick was a blue, he too was married to one of the Tarleton sisters.

My dad took me to meet Bill Dean, who he knew from the thirties – Dean hated the soubriquet "Dixie" – at the Dublin Packet when I was 18. Dean was lovely and talked with me and my dad all afternoon, drinking tea after the pub closed. At the time, I possibly took the incident for granted; now, it is one of my fondest and proudest memories.

It's a long shot, but I wonder if any one in your extended family, is familiar with names Phil Braithwaite and Nora Traynor (my auntie's maiden name)?

To maintain the boxing connection, their daughter's father-in-law was Tony Vairo, who I believe managed Dick Tiger and Hogan 'Kid' Bassey. .

I think Phil Tarleton's family, Phil was my oldest cousin and a policeman at Harper Street, may still be in Liverpool, but I've lost contact. I remember Tony Vairo and my dad once took me to the stadium to see Dick Tiger.

In the fifties and before, I think it was common for men to go to Anfield one week and Goodison the next. Most people in the pre-Shankly era, he did change the dynamics and made both teams' supporters more xenophobic, would support the blues or the reds but possibly had the other lot as their second team.

I also agree with you about Dennis Stevens, he was abused for not being Bobby Collins and he was a marvellous player and did a lot of donkey work. At Bolton he'd been the second striker to Nat Lofthouse and he changed his game completely to fit in with Young and Vernon.

Brian Labone told a few of us that Dennis Stevens was for him the most important player in the 1962-63 title-winning season, because of the defensive cover he provided.

Can I just say what a marvellous series of threads this has been and thank-you, John, for reviving so many memories of great players and great times at Goodison Park.

Looking forward to the rest of your team and your subs.

My own opinion was that Everton would have waited a long time before Johnny Carey would have won the title for us, but Johnny will have plenty of Everton fans who will disagree with my opinion.

My mother were friends of Harry Tarleton and his wife Mary. They were related to your Uncle Nel.

They lived in Sadler Street off Low Hill, we lived in the next street, Meaburn Street. I still see Linda (their daughter) around Old Swan.

I worked in the old Lister Drive Power Station. I met Ernie Roderick whilst working there, a lovely man.

Dave, whether we would have had years to wait for a trophy under Carey, well, who knows, but the football would have been worth watching.

Having said that, my favourite Everton side was the 69-70 team with the Holy Trinity in their pomp, and that was a Catterick side. That team had everything: powerful running, exquisite football and flair. Wonderful team, broken up far too soon with Ball being sold because "It was a good financial deal"...

Some supporters of Everton and Liverpool, did attend both grounds, we went to Anfield hoping that Arsenal would beat them, and they came to Goodison hoping that Tottenham Hotspur would beat us. We just needed a game to go to, and if we didn't go away with our own club, we would go and watch the other lot. I would like to thank you for your kind words, and I hope the articles lighten the mood, in these difficult times.

Hi again Peter [31], I took the 10 years off myself, God knows how many years Everton have put on me. I've chosen seven substitutes, but will only use three, and I will require a manager, I have to choose one from Cliff Britton in 1948 to Sam Allardyce in 2018, It's not going to be easy.

As for Alan Ball, great player no doubt, but nobody knows the full story of why he went either. Lots of rumours, Roy Vernon, one of my favourite players, what happened there maybe Roy had too much to say which has been suggested. He went to Stoke City, so no big demand for his services It has also been said that Catterick got rid of Alex Young too soon, I think Alex's best days had long gone when he went.

Now Bobby Collins, Harry definitely got it wrong, even the fact he got more money for Bobby than what was paid for him can't disguise that fact. Then again Bobby Collins surprised many, many people with the length and success of his time with Leeds Utd and elsewhere.

Vernon to Stoke, as you remember, Stoke used to take a lot of players just past their best and squeeze a couple of seasons out of them. It seemed to work for them,the likes of Setters, Dobing McIlroy, Vernon, Violet to mention a few, and they were usually mid to lower half of the table but kept their 1st Div status for a while with not much outlay.

Doubled his money on Ball who according to his dad in the Daily Express the day after the transfer, was absolutely delighted with the move after doubling his wages at Arsenal... might have helped to pay his gambling debts, which were rumoured at the time for Alan moving away. They were only rumours, so who knows.

You know from my posts on here, I loved all the players who were transferred and I am definitely biased where Harry Catterick is concerned, the best manager we have ever had – just my opinion of course!!!!

He was though, a big gambler. Reading his book, I was surprised to discover that he was virtually skint when he took over Southampton and when you consider that he must have been on decent money for those days, it is a bit sad that he didn't look after his cash more.

Catterick, in my mind, WAS a top manager for us; I just wish he had been a little less introverted and that he would have embraced the media as other managers did. We would certainly have more TV footage of our old heroes if he hadn't banned the cameras from Goodison Park!

Regarding Harry Catterick and the way he was certainly a very introverted person, as you say, and even alluded to that in a little dig at the man who courted and revelled in publicity, saying "Well I'm not Rob Roy",

Ray, none of us can help being the way we are, it's mostly down to the way we are, but I agree Harry's personality didn't do Everton any favours while "Travesty if Justice" got the media on Liverpool's side. Catterick, love him or not, was acting naturally while "Fish and Chips" was very contrived to me. Told you – I loved Harry. !!!!!!!

Rob Roy... surely you don't mean Mr Shankly?

Many have been positively dour, Catterick, Lee, Smith, Moyes, Koeman et alia.There are in some ways two very different Merseysiders, Liverpool FC with their anthem, their Kop and their relentless expectant optimism are one facet of it. The other is introspective, self-critical and often downright pessimistic and it seems to find its home in our club and our supporters.

Harry Catterick was a great manager, up there with Busby, Shankley, Nicholson and Revie, yet he never looked for publicity and his sharpness and introversion did Everton few favours. The press were an enemy to him, not a group to be courted and impressed.

So, despite their periods of success in the sixties and eighties, Everton are essentially a club still based and grounded in Liverpool. Round where I live, I rarely see an Everton shirt. I see United shirts, Liverpool shirts, Chelsea shirts and yet Liverpool have been only marginally more successful than Everton over the past thirty years. We are seen as a club that belongs to Liverpool, whereas Liverpool have a base in the whole country, in Scandinavia and Ireland. Ironic when you think of the fifties and the Dublin boat packed with Everton fans.

I don't quite know where this leads us, but it does seem to me that we are not merely two clubs wearing different colours, but two aspects of the schizophrenia of our city and in fact of people in general. Dave Abrahams is hinting at the same thing in his post. Ironically in Manchester, the same split in personality was there till Middle East money transformed Man City, so maybe there's hope for us yet.

I think the TV ban came at his outrage when he saw the finished piece they put out.

They showed numerous clips and had Harry talking them through it all. Harry, I think, got a bit carried away with himself, seduced by the glamour and attention, not being at all media savvy like Shankly, who was it had to be said, a natural. Anyway, Harry (Inadvertently) gave away a few of our plays in his in depth analysis.

For all I know, they may have used the old trick of, "Now we're off air what do you really think?" When they asked him was it true that Sandy Brown was the only non-International in the team... they counted U23s as a big deal then. Let's just say that 'Damning with faint praise' was the order of the day.

Teams of course then targeted Sandy, his confidence and form fell away (he most likely saw the Interview too) and the icing on the cake was the famous, or is it Infamous, derby own goal... which is why Keith Newton was bought quick smart.

This didn't help his dislike of TV. He later went on to say that TV would be no good for football in the long run... and who's to say he wasn't wrong.

I agree with those who say that Collins, Vernon, Bally etc were sold too early but how things changed at our Club! We now (and have done for many years) keep players until well beyond their peak years!

And how sad that a great servant of EFC, Sandy Brown, is remembered for an own goal. A great fighter for he team and a player with much more talent, in several positions, than people remember.

Dave,

We have "YouTube" and I suppose we should be thankful for that. Thing is, once I start looking at old footage, I'm lost in nostalgia for the rest of the day, getting all misty-eyed over my boyhood heroes and lost youth.

I'm going to sit with a gin and dream for the days of yore for a while.

I'm pleased that there has been a favourable response, I had hoped that apart from reviving memories, for those who saw the players featured, it may have given the younger readers an insight into why we hold this club of ours in such high regard, and I feel that it may have created a bit of light relief in these troubled times.

For the work you have put into these articles, the response from TW readers has been just reward. The series has also brought out the best in people. Those who disagree do so with respect to your choice and opinion and express their view accordingly and without rancour. It has also brought out additional information, stories and personal experiences from those who have posted, which has added so much to the thread(s).

Ray Roche makes a very good point in that it is a great shame there isn't more video footage of some of these wonderful players, as I'm sure our younger readers would get great enjoyment and probably understand why we older guys are so dewy eyed when it comes to such as Bobby Collins et al.

Thanks John and well done.

Just been through this thread and note the reference to Tony Vairo and the Tarleton family.

I have an old report from the Echo entitled "Star -Studded Tribute" by Syd Dye about a tribute night in honour of Alan Rudkin at the Grafton Rooms.

There is an accompanying photograph (not good quality so I'm trying to get a better archive copy) which shows Tony Vairo and Brian Tarleton in attendance, along with the likes of Dixie Dean, Brian Labone, Johnny Cook, Brian McCaffrey, Reg Gutteridge and others.

Let me know if you want a copy?

John is right. One's favourites aren't always the best players but they are those that capture the imagination at a time when we are at our most impressionable.

Like Ray (#49) I look at as much footage of the team as I can on YouTube and wish that there were more of the games from the '60s. Like him once I start I am in deep trouble as I find something else to look at as well. For me it's 1960s music, I never grew out of it!

It might be a good idea to ask your Dad, he has met me, and if he says there's a resemblance, then I will accept that, perhaps next time your Dad and I meet for a pre match cup of tea, you might come along. By the way I'll be 80 in July.

Hi Steve [54], thank you for the kind offer but I'm afraid I'll have to decline, I don't have any contact with my cousin these days, and as Tony Vairo was her Father-in- law I think she will have plenty of photos of him. I trust I'm not coming across as ungrateful, it's just that it would be of no use to me.

I'm a bit of a collector/scrapbooker so I grab anything I find from the old days! I have a subscription to the online British Newspaper Archive which keeps me occupied when I'm not on ToffeeWeb!

All the best.

I give you everyone's favourite Number 8... Mike Trebilcock.

I saw him at Goodison in a night game versus Aston Villa reserves, he scored and ran half the length of the pitch with his arms outstretched, great to watch such joy at scoring in an unimportant game.

I think Mike was chosen to become one of us just for that cup final game. I hope some one is watching over us for the rest of the season and keeps us up.

A lot of us are still very worried. [Looks towards Brazil and Jay Wood...]

I have just checked Mike Trebilcock's Everton record, and it is 11 league appearances and 3 goals; 1 European appearance, 0 goals; and I'm saving the best for the last: 2 FA Cup appearances, 2 goals.

What an FA Cup career, 2 games (Semi-Final, and Final) and 2 goals. Total:14 appearances, 5 goals.

A real shame the way Alan ended up. Always maintained his dignity but was a shadow of himself towards the end. His local was Ye Cracke in Rice Street of Hope Street. Sadly he was making his way home after a drink and was found dead in the street.

One of the unluckiest boxers ever in the calibre of the three opponents he fought in World title fights. In these days of alphabet titles, boxers who could not put his bandages on win World titles. One of the all-time British greats in my opinion.

John I think I read somewhere you lived in Skelmersdale. Wish we'd have signed Steve Heighway, he was tipped to come to us but joined that other lot instead.

Not only was Bally in tears – I don't mind admitting I was too.

England played Belgium just before Catterick got rid of him, and won. I remember the Belgian manager saying to the media that they'd had to play two teams that day, "England and Alan Ball" in his words.

Summed Bally up – Legend!!!

After our coach arrived back, Bill James and I had to wait for hours standing in shop doorways and being questioned by the local constabulary as to our intents waiting for you drunken lot to make it home!

Different perspective indeed!

There is an article recalling it on the Echo website, including a quotation from the referee to the Southport centre forward after he clattered Gordon West – “Mr Redrobe, I'm going to book you, because if I don't I'll never get out of this ground alive, and you'll be lynched by those mad Evertonians”.

Sorry about that. We're all getting to be a bit old. Love this series of posts.

I follow a daily boxing talk show here in the USA, broadcast out of New York, and they are often critical of current day boxers' tendency to duck other top class fighters so they build a winning record. Back in Alan's day, boxers wanted to test themselves against the best to prove themselves.

In addition to the three greats he fought for world titles (any one of them probably rank in the all time top 10 bantams ever) he also fought Walter McGowan and Johnny Clark a couple of times, each for British and Commonwealth titles!

An all time great.

Come on West Brom!

A few of his mates from his amateur days at The Gloves under Dougie Pomford looked after Alan royally in his later days. A great club the Golden Gloves, produced some top amateurs. George Turpin one of my favourites

Catterick had faults as we all do but in the main his record is exceptional and no doubt overlooked by the media because of his distance from most journalists. Reading Rob Sawyer's excellent book, I think he realised his approach could have been different much later in life but what a team builder in his prime.

My early recollections of being a blue started with the 1966 Cup win then the assembly of the fantastic footballing unit we enjoyed till the European Cup and FA cup losses of 1971. As Joe Royle said, a team died that week. Will we ever see football of that calibre again?

But The Team and West were on to this and showed extra restraint... West just met Redrobe shoulder to shoulder and laughed at him, led him a merry dance...

One time, the ball was rolling over the goal line and West went to pick it up to keep it in. Redrobe came steaming in to clatter him once... or maybe even just before West had the ball in his hands – keepers were a lot less protected then – West just stepped over the ball and left it. In came Redrobe to where West should've been only to hit fresh air, the only thing he clattered were the press photographers.

He also caught him... 'accidentally' of course, round the earhole, when throwing the ball out over arm... cue bitter, but futile complaints to the Ref.

They gave up this Plan A, no Plan B after a bit and we could then play enough football to see them off.

Then as now, you have to win the 'fight ball' to earn the right to play your 'football'.

Johnny would have made a great boxing coach as well. I had a mate, we grew up together, who boxed at The Maple Leaf boxing club with Johnny and also in Johnny Campbell's boxing stable in Birkenhead with Johnny Cooke and he said, every time he sparred with Johnny Cooke, he learned something.

You can catch the Cooke - McCaffrey fight on YouTube, well worth watching.

Larry was a very humble and unassuming man you could ever hope to meet. I used to have a drink with him in Ned Kelly's (now The Sovereigns Cross) and not many people in the pub would recognise him, yet he had three Championship medals for the 1st Division, 2nd Division, and 3rd Division South with Ipswich town. When he retired from football, he worked on the docks.

Alf Ramsay, his old manager at Ipswich, said of him: "There are only three or four people from football that I would invite to my house and Larry Carberry is one of them". Larry and Brian McCaffrey grew up together around Scotland Road; both were a credit to that area, along with many others.

I was always of the opinion that most boxers would be 'no-goods', if their aggression wasn't directed down the right channels, but I can honestly say that both Harry and Jimmy, were gentleman. Sadly neither of them are with us now.

In the ring, Harry fought some of the best middleweight boxers around at that time including, Rubin Carter, Chris Finnegan, Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith,Alan Minter and Lassoing Papp, not sure if he fought Terry Downes, he never fought for the British title, lost three eliminators for this title, another fighter who always gave value for money in his fights and maybe he was too brave for his own good.

John, a lot of boxers were gents outside the ring and never took advantage of their boxing capabilities, but I knew one or two who were "not very nice to know".

In fact Harry Scott is in the picture I referenced above at the Alan Rudkin tribute.

As well as Brian McCaffrey, Johnny Cook, Brian Labone and Dixie, already mentioned, the picture includes Tommy and Jimmy Molloy with my granddad Dickie Burke, Terry Spinks and a few names I don't know. Maybe you guys know who they were? Frank Hope, Tommy McArdle and George Brown.

Not in the picture but in attendance were Roger Hunt, Wally Thom, Joey Singleton, Stan Rowan and Pat Dwyer. Ernie Roderick and Peter Kane were invited but couldn't attend on the night, which I'm guessing was in the late 1970s.

What a turn out for Alan Rudkin!

Tommy McCardle (I think) ran a club in Temple Court, off Dale Street. You had to wear a tie to get in – this was in the sixties. He was an uncle of Eddie Palmer, an amateur heavyweight boxer who fought for the Golden Gloves if I'm not mistaken; I don't know George Brown.

McCardle's club, if it is the same Tommy McCardle, was a very well known place to go and, on a Thursday night after the boxing show at the Stadium, many personalities would show up there.

One night, Terry Downes came in with Harry Carpenter, had a good chat to Harry, and on another occasion, Alan Ball came in with Howard Kendall, Ball having a bit of banter with everyone, Howard sitting there like a choir boy nursing a glass of lager.

A Liverpudlian said to Bally "Smithy will have you in his pocket on Saturday." Everton were playing Liverpool that weekend... Bally said to the Liverpool fan, "That's all Smithy will see of me on Saturday," pointing to his arse. Even the Liverpool fans laughed.

It was kin late 1959, that I bought three tickets from Harry for a fight night at the Stadium, I presume that Harry who I believe was a middle weight, was still an amateur, and in order to fix him up with a fight, he was matched against against Ray Shiel a heavyweight from St Helens, and Harry actually won the bout.

I worked with Jimmy in a factory in Skelmersdale, and he brought the bronze medal he won at the 1960 Rome Olympics, into work to show me, he lost in the semi-final to Nino Benvenuti,

Benvenuti went on to win the gold medal. Jimmy told me that Benvenuti was later to win a world title as a professional.

When I was involved with the football, I used to write the match reports for the Skelmersdale Reporter and the Ormskirk Advertiser, I was a postman at the time, and the weekend before Christmas I had to work Saturday and Sunday to handle the volume of mail. Jimmy scored his only goal for the club that weekend, but unfortunately I missed the printing deadline, and he never let me forget it.

As I said in my previous post, two gentlemen, but I got to know Jimmy better than Harry, I knew Harry as a workmate, but Jimmy and I became firm friends.

It would appear that the Bobby Collins thread has run its course, so I'll put the finishing touches to Part 9. [Watch this space.]

BTW Dave Abrahams, you should write a history about Liverpool and its great characters. You know more about the Liverpool scene than any source I found on the internet!

John, your thread has, for me at least, become more than football and is bringing back great memories of Liverpool in general which is great for an exile like me now living in the USA. Looking forward to Part 9.

Thanks for that bit of info on Frank Hope.

I did a bit more digging and came up with the following paragraph in an old Echo report, which answers Dave's query in #90 above:

"Hope went into local folklore in 1955 when he became the first Liverpool boxer to win an ABA senior title, beating Bootle's Dave Rent to the honour by a few minutes. He took the middleweight crown, with Rent next in the ring to capture the light-heavy crown.

A product of the St Teresa's ABC, Hope was national schools champ, ABA youth champion, boxed in the Olympic trials for the Helsinki Games and was watched by millions on TV as he helped England to a famous international victory over USA in 1955.

By the way, Rick, I take it Brian Tarleton was a relative of yours?

For years I have had a mental picture in my mind of both Gordon West, and Andy Rankin having to play out of goal because of injury, both operating at outside left, in what we used to term as 'nuisance value'.

Both would have taken place before substitutions were allowed, and the relevant dates are, for Gordon West, 9 November 1963 [Blackburn Rovers] and for Andy Rankin, 12 December 1964, [Stoke City] only one person I have mentioned this to, agrees with the Andy Rankin incident, but no-one can recall the Gordon West incident.

I appreciate that it is asking a lot of you, but if you could clear it up one way or another, I would be forever in your debt.

Stoke 1964

Blackburn 1963

Can't find any reference to Gordon playing out but, as Lawrence confirms, it looks like Andy Rankin played out for a short period v Stoke as per the following report I found under this url: http://www.sportinggenes.com/andyrankin.html#64-65:

" Full-back Ray Wilson returned to Everton's side for the home game against Stoke on Saturday, 12th December, after an absence of nearly four months through injury. The team was:

Rankin; Brown, Wilson; Gabriel, Labone, Harris; Scott, Harvey, Pickering, Vernon, Temple.

Everton went ahead after 16 minutes, with several good saves by Andy helping to keep the lead at the interval. However, seven minutes into the second-half, Andy was injured diving to save at the feet of one of the Stoke forwards. He had to leave the field for treatment and Brown took his place in goal. Ten minutes after being taken off, Andy returned with a bandage on his left forearm and went to the left-wing. Brown made several good saves but was beaten with 13 minutes to go."

I will keep digging re Gordon but the National Newspaper archive only has the Liverpool Echo online up to 1945 at the moment!

Alex Young opened our scoring account against the Rovers but Blackburn recovered their three goal lead when Pickering completed his hat-trick. Everton found the going even harder after losing the services of Tony Kay but had the last if ineffective, word when Derek Temple found the net a few minutes before the end. Definitely a game to forget.

From the following years Evertonia: -

It was after only three minutes that Fred Pickering opened the scoring for Blackburn in last season's game. Twenty minutes later the same man scored a great goal to increase his side's lead and bring on the Goodison gloom. Left-winger Harrison registered Rovers' third goal before Alex Young opened Everton's account with a goal after half-an-hour.

Everton came more into the game after this although their labours were not rewarded with any more goals for the time being. Indeed, it was again the visitors who scored the next goal - and Fred Pickering scored it.

Although Everton did what they could in the circumstances (Jimmy Gabriel) had been a limping passenger for most of the game., in addition to other troubles) it was not until only five minutes remained that our second goal went in. This was a header from Derek Temple and the effort completed the scoring for the afternoon.

There's something I'm 100% certain of, but can't get anyone to verify, is that the ground until the late fifties at least, was painted green and cream – what we used to call Corporation colours, the livery of the buses.

Once again, Lawrence and Steve, many thanks for your assistance.

I would have said it was a night match as it was under the floodlights, but mid-December would have seen the lights on, at least for the second half.

Bruce Rankin played 398 times for us between 1901-1906 and a George Rankin notched up 39 appearances between 1950 and 1956.

Seems like he came from a great sporting family with a couple of other relatives playing non league at Marine and another a decent rugby player.

Amazing what you can dig up!

At Nottingham Forest last Saturday there were some changes in the team. Andy Rankin made his senior debut in goal in place of Gordon West and Brian Harris came in at right-half in place of the injured Jimmy Gabriel.

Nottingham Forest centre-forward Frank Wignall went all-out to do well against his old club and caused our rearguard some worrying moments during the game. Forest attacked well in the first half and when Everton took the lead five minutes before the interval it came as some surprise. Brian Harris was happy to put the ball in the Nottingham net.

Five minutes after half-time Everton went further ahead with a good goal from Roy Vernon. The Blues now had the upper hand in the game and were playing good football. However, all was not finished. Brian Labone was injured with 20 minutes to go and had to leave the field. He returned to play in the forwards but a big shake-up of positions had to be made.

As if this wansn't bad enough Alex Parker had to come off injured a few minutes later. Everton were thus down to nine fit men. It was at that point that Nottingham were able to take advantage of our misfortunes and they drew level with two goals in as many minutes from Jeff Whitefoot.

All credit to the Everton team, and Andy Rankin in particular, for preventing Forest going into the lead in the hectic final ten minutes.

That Blackburn game in 1963 was quite a game. When Kay was sent off, the mood was as ugly as I can remember in Goodison Park.

Brian Douglas on whom Kay committed his foul had been provoking Everton players all afternoon. It was raining and it may even have been thundering and as the game drew to its close, Blackburn were being booed for everything.

I was in the old Paddock and Mike Harrison, the Blackburn winger, was going down the touchline towards the Stanley Park end, when an object was thrown at him from the paddock, Harrison stopped dead. I think he suspected it was a brick.

An old khaki knapsack which working men all carried in them days floated to the ground and all of us in the paddock were laughing at Harrison, who'd lost the ball and it had gone for a goal kick.

Harrison picked up the knapsack , grinned and handed it back into the crowd.He got a round of applause and helped to make things a little lighter.

Lawrence, I must be truthful, although I would undoubtedly have seen the Blackburn Rovers game, but I have no recollection of it, I think it's asking a lot to expect to remember all the games you attend in a lifetime of watching Everton [well, that's my excuse]. Even reading the account that you have furnished, I'm afraid the game is hidden in the depths of my mind.

However, I would like to thank you for taking the time to help me, I will probably have to admit that Gordon West spending some time on the left wing, is a figment of my imagination.

He ended up playing at my local team Peterborough and became a crowd favourite – not because of his performances... but because he always ran out wearing a scary theatrical mask.