Everton begin preliminary work at Bramley-Moore Dock

Monday, 14 June, 2021 104comments  |  Jump to last

Everton have begun preliminary inspection work at Bramley-Moore Dock in anticipation of construction work on the new stadium beginning in earnest later this year.

The club received both local and central Governmental approval for plans to build a 52,888-seat stadium on the north docks site earlier this year, with the first project being the filling in of the dock itself.

The Liverpool Echo report that specialist firm Boskalis Maritime will send a boat out onto the Mersey to carry out various checks on the dock and its hidden contents.

Their team will conduct a survey of the bottom of the dock and check for any potential hazards like unexploded devices from the Second World War, while also assessing the condition of the dock wall ahead of the infilling operation.

The Echo report also suggests that other work will include a survey of microbiological organisms present in the water and the recovery of panels and materials installed to better understand the local climate, with construction work set to start in late summer or the autumn.

 

Reader Comments (104)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


Barry Hesketh
1 Posted 14/06/2021 at 13:55:29
The obligatory stadium update, well, that's how some cynics might describe it. It does look like the timeline for the first spade in the ground might be in the final quarter of this year.
Dennis Stevens
2 Posted 14/06/2021 at 15:22:04
Nice to know, but not the announcement I've been waiting for, tbh.
Colin Glassar
3 Posted 14/06/2021 at 15:22:11
Will Bill be hiring the yellow submarine to find those German bombs or will he be donning his woolly cozzy and doing a Buster Crabbe impersonation?
Brian Murray
4 Posted 14/06/2021 at 15:24:55
We are exploring species that may be clinging onto the dock wall etc. Quite apt. We have had a useless barnacle doing that for years...
Colin Glassar
5 Posted 14/06/2021 at 15:25:45
Dennis, probably means Nuno has turned us down😉
Mark Ryan
6 Posted 14/06/2021 at 15:33:19
Embarrassingly predictable article that we should expect from the club, just before another one that says "Nuno has said no no!"
Alex Kociuba
7 Posted 14/06/2021 at 15:33:48
I would have thought a preliminary inspection would have happened years ago? How much money and time has already been spent that will be wasted if some kind of rare and protected fish is found? Why is this only happening now?
Peter Mills
8 Posted 14/06/2021 at 15:55:47
I suppose the scepticism and cynicism will continue until people are walking through the doors for the first game there.

Dennis Stevens
9 Posted 14/06/2021 at 16:10:22
At this stage, Colin, I think I'd be disappointed & relieved in equal measure!
Rob Halligan
10 Posted 14/06/2021 at 16:22:54
This thread is only a couple of hours old, but already it's full of shite comments.
Terry White
12 Posted 14/06/2021 at 16:30:44
You said it, Rob (#10), and Kevin (#11), in typical fashion, right behind you has proven you correct.
David Pearl
13 Posted 14/06/2021 at 16:41:36
Alex 7, do you think any fish are in there? Maybe some 3 eyed ones but other than that l just expect a few body parts, old bikes etc

Mark 6, come on now, are you serious?

Numbers 1 through 5 and 15 through to 950... are you serious?

Michael Boardman
15 Posted 14/06/2021 at 16:48:20
The fish is taking some time to consider the Everton offer, as it assumed the offer was pre-tax, and Fleetwood are potentially offering a better career / life-cycle than Everton's offer of 650 mealworms spread over 16 years; dependent upon trophy success
Duncan McDine
17 Posted 14/06/2021 at 16:50:36
Kevin 11 (that almost rhymes)… why so cynical? Ah, hang on, yes you’re right - Hibbo is there as I write this with his carp gear alongside Jose Baxter (there are whispers of ‘other’ gear in his case).
Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
19 Posted 14/06/2021 at 17:06:27
I wonder if the Arteta money will be one of the hidden contents?

Bramley-Moore Dock walls needs re-enforcement to make it water tight - - - bit like our defence then because that isn't water tight either.

Tom Edwards
20 Posted 14/06/2021 at 17:22:21
Brian Murray (4). Class, lad! I must admit to having a loud chuckle at that one!!
Tom Harvey
21 Posted 14/06/2021 at 18:00:19
Kevin Prytherch @ 11

No, Derek Hatton is out on bail and looks set to play a big part in the Everton project.

James Flynn
22 Posted 14/06/2021 at 18:19:00
Exciting news. Going to be fantastic.

Now and again, I go online to look at the development in that whole dock area. With so much development, I can't find how the road/transportation net will change to accommodate so many people living or visiting the dock area.

Brent Stephens
23 Posted 14/06/2021 at 18:33:52
Alex #7 "How much money and time has already been spent that will be wasted if some kind of rare and protected fish is found?"

You know you're inviting the (in)famous fish puns from Live Forum?!

Phsh!

Ian Horan
25 Posted 14/06/2021 at 18:51:09
Moshiri will be hoping for a prehistoric site to be found and the site becomes protected phew!!!! Moshiri and Usmanov will save an awful lot of Rubbles then maybe Nuno is on the Verge of jumping into BMD..
Tony Abrahams
26 Posted 14/06/2021 at 18:52:01
James @22, in their wisdom, Liverpool City Council, have actually started bringing the continuation of the dock road, down to two lanes, and although we don't know what it's going to be like when it's finished, it's an absolute catastrophe at the minute.

The new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock is going to be a bit like Wembley, with only really three ways to access the stadium, whereas Goodison probably has about fifteen different access routes.

The water might eventually get used for people coming from the t'other side, and my own guess is that they are going to eventually have to build another train station in between Sandhills, and Moorefields, because driving towards the ground just doesn't make any sense at all.

Bill Watson
27 Posted 14/06/2021 at 19:11:09
So many ridiculously negative comments. Why, on earth, would Everton spend tens of £1000s checking the condition of the dock before they had planning permission and before they'd signed the lease?

This is based on today's Echo article today but there's nothing, as yet, on the Everton website.

Good to see they're doing a sweep for unexploded bombs as there could well be a few in the mud.

Ian Pilkington
28 Posted 14/06/2021 at 19:18:59
Tony @26

Merseyrail have been planning a new station at Vauxhall between Moorfields and Sandhills since 2017, irrespective of BMD being approved.

Water-borne traffic is never going to happen at BMD due to the tides. The cost of a floating landing stage would be prohibitive.

Billy Bradshaw
29 Posted 14/06/2021 at 19:19:06
When do we go from the preliminary stage to the official start, because this to me looks like the start of our new stadium and long may it continue.
Soren Moyer
30 Posted 14/06/2021 at 19:52:24
Oh my cod! Fantastic news!
John Pickles
31 Posted 14/06/2021 at 20:01:23
I don't think they need to spend any more money on it, looking at the photo at the top, it looks fine as it is.
Alex Kociuba
32 Posted 14/06/2021 at 20:17:04
Bill, because I'm assuming millions have already been spent so tens of 1000's relative to that isn't much? I have no idea of the costs involved though. However, if bombs are discovered which can't be made safe without hindering the integrity of the dock walls or creatures are found that can't be disturbed, then millions will have been wasted, rather than just 'losing' whatever the costs are to dive down and survey the surface.

Having said all this I'm neither an architect or an accountant. I just would have thought 'check to see if there's bombs' might have come before now.

I can't believe all these bloody fish puns, it is pathetic. There's a time and plaice for that kind of thing.


Jerome Shields
33 Posted 14/06/2021 at 20:25:08
Good to see a start being made. Will regenerate the area and spawn other developments. Jobs and probably house development will follow. Barcelona had one of the first Docklands developments. There is a Exhibition of the Development and the economic developments that materialised from it. All impressive, changing the perspective of Barcelona as a City worldwide.

Liverpool have already started years ago, but maybe at last they are going to push ahead. Great that Everton is part of it, even though I was sceptical of it getting off the ground after previous disappointments

At least this development is one of Moshiri prime objective and should generate the returns he wants. Hopefully it will drag Everton Club up by the bootlaces with it.

Len Hawkins
34 Posted 14/06/2021 at 20:37:15
I hope the divers are not under 50 because if they find a man with a newspaper sticking out of his pocket they won't know the claim line " You are Lobby Ludd and I claim my £10".

Why would there be any bombs there the Germans didn't know Everton were going to build there I think it's a red herring.

Brian Wilkinson
35 Posted 14/06/2021 at 20:46:31
You can expect a couple of Norwegians, making an appearance with a jar of rare newts, to drop in the dock.

I would laugh myself, if I thought it would not happen.

In regards to bombs being found, I think a few of the older gangsters from the sixties, will be more worried of something else being found, and twitching a bit.

Rob Halligan
36 Posted 14/06/2021 at 20:51:48
Alex, as far as I'm aware, the only money spent by the club so far, was to acquire the land from Peel, and the designs of the new stadium by Dan Meis. What would be the point in the club spending tens of thousands of pounds on what we are seeing today, to see if any UXB's are located under the Mersey near the dock, and even in the dock, and also to recover all fishes etc, only to have planning permission denied, or called in by the government, who then pull the plug? Now that would have been a waste of money to do these checks, only to have the whole project pulled from underneath them.

As it turns out, there have been other checks being carried out, which I, and am sure everyone else was unaware of, which is that engineers will were on the site today to recover panels and materials which were placed at Bramley-Moore Dock to help fully understand the climate of the plot by the Mersey. These findings will also help the club update their extensive heritage plan for the site. So plenty of things have been happening which we are not aware of.


Colin Glassar
39 Posted 14/06/2021 at 21:13:35
It would be funny if the remains of Lord Lucan, Shergar, Jimmy Hoffa and Fishcake Harry were all found on the bottom of BMD.
Tony Abrahams
40 Posted 14/06/2021 at 21:16:48
The station makes sense Ian, I presume it’s going to be opposite the huge heritage warehouse that is slowly getting redeveloped mate?

I think as time moves forward, ferries might start to dock near the cruise ship landing stage, but the train is the most important transport link, so that’s very good news.

John Chambers
53 Posted 14/06/2021 at 21:54:46
I’d have thought finding out the climate would have been easy enough, wet and windy!
James Flynn
68 Posted 14/06/2021 at 22:16:22
Tony (26) - Thanks for the info.

I used to google the area a lot, last year especially. With all the new construction already ongoing and BMD about to be added to that, it would seem that laying in new roads at the same time would cause problems.

The city has a site that shows current work or planned new roads around town and I didn't see any in the docks area from, say, BMD to the Liver building [Where all is new construction has been happening]. Thought I'd ask as we have a few construction ITKs in here.

Thanks again.

Nicholas Randall
73 Posted 14/06/2021 at 22:35:34
Climate change will have an impact everywhere. With the stadium been built on the Mersey, I am worried if there was heavy rainfall the ground could be flooded.
Cormac Boyd
88 Posted 14/06/2021 at 22:57:08
Jesus wept...how negative you all are! Maybe, just maybe, this is a positive... but no, you just love to believe the worst.

I've supported Everton since Jeff Astle ended our dreams in 1968. But you lot make me sick. Giving out about players and then expecting them to show loyalty when you treat them like shit.

Blue means pain.

Bill Watson
92 Posted 15/06/2021 at 01:58:40
Nicholas #73

I asked Dan Meis about rising sea levels and he said they've been factored into the design.

Martin Berry
93 Posted 15/06/2021 at 08:21:05
Buckets at the ready then, great news!
Ian Burns
94 Posted 15/06/2021 at 08:30:36
Rob Halligan many thanks for your early intervention pulling up those showing their usual sarcasm at any stadium update.

This is positive news, now for a new manager, whoever that may be.

Michael Kenrick
95 Posted 15/06/2021 at 10:27:24
Nicholas @73, drainage design for heavy rainfall –factoring in some degree of increase in storm intensity, frequency and duration with projected climate change – is all part and parcel of the published, submitted and approved project design.

With the site being right on the river, and near its mouth, the likelihood of site flooding as a direct result of heavy rainfall is about zero. The possibility of a "Perfect Storm" combining sustained heavy rainfall with abnormally low barometric pressure, and persistent northwest gales across the Irish Sea, creating a surge that combines with the highest spring tides... now that might get interesting! But it would also probably flood many low-lying areas around Liverpool Bay!!!

Of course the projected effects of climate change could be off the mark. This "predicting the future" malarkey is not for the faint-hearted.

Tony Shelby
96 Posted 15/06/2021 at 11:12:11
Some of the negativity on this site is amazing. I literally doff my cap to those of you who - with Herculean effort - try to turn exciting news like this into a stinking, brown floater of epic proportions.

Personally, I jizz my pants every time I see the stadium. What Evertonian wouldn’t?

Rob Halligan
98 Posted 15/06/2021 at 13:03:02
Ian # 94, and Tony # 96. People moan because it’s all gone quiet on the new stadium, demanding to know what’s exactly happening? News is released giving an update and all the pathetic sarcastic comments appear. I’m really surprised, to be honest, that the stadium is not up and running for the start of next season, after all, it’s probably what some would expect!!
John Pendleton
99 Posted 15/06/2021 at 14:07:49
The timing of significant press releases are closely managed and agreed by the multiple stakeholders involved. This looks more like a 'progress' filler story from the Echo via EFC PR so its timing is a local decision. Cynical or not, all I can say is someone in PR is just doing their job.

The entire timeline and the update responses of BMD reminds me of the Middlehaven project, a similar dock regeneration in Middlesbrough where I lived at the time.

Derelict far too long in an area desperate for significant regeneration; false dawns; painfully slow progress; complex planning, funding and engineering issues; promises broken, diluted but ultimately fulfilled when politics, investment and ambition aligned. It even salvaged its own listed clock tower building.

When huge transformation, big numbers and dazzling visuals were bandied around to 'sell' the idea, the news of its go-ahead raised public expectation of cranes in the skyline from day 1.

If cutting the ribbon was step 10, steps 1 to 8 (planning, funding, design, inspection, decontamination, groundwork, utilities, infrastructure, procuring etc) didn't exactly get the public's heart racing. Step 2 couldn't start until step 1 was secured and so on - much of the progress and money was spent, as scheduled, below ground but with little to show for it public frustration grew. Any update that didn't alter the skyline was met with apathy.

Middlehaven is now the thriving home of Middlesbrough FC, business, academia and residents. Its mainly younger population care not one jot about the 50 years of pain taken to make it all possible. And I'm sure we'll be the same when our first goal is scored in a magnificent stadium on a regenerated waterfront.

Chuck in the uncertainties of the economy, climate, Brexit, Covid, UNESCO and FFP and a manager merry go round, overall I'm reasonably happy with BMD's progress to date. No-one wants the much-anticipated first spade in the ground to set off a UXB ('depends who's digging' I hear some quip).

Having witnessed recent failed attempts the skeptics have a point but surely we've made more progress and we're on a sounder footing than when some were clinging on to the fact that Tesco Terry was an Evertonian?

With lower costs, lighter planning requirements, less transparency and no public consultation Goodison Park must have been a breeze to build by comparison. Do we know or care what fans thought then? History records the firsts, the memories, the legacy. These days, however, we also get to record the bitching, sniping and personal attacks. Let those who judge us in 100 years know that it wasn't all negativity!

We are the lucky generation that should witness a huge milestone in our shared history. I sincerely hope everyone today on ToffeeWeb gets to witness that first goal.

Dave Lynch
101 Posted 15/06/2021 at 16:09:41
Meanwhile.
The other lot have just been granted permission to redevelop again to increase capacity to a further 7000.

What is it with us? Years of fuckups and still no spade in the ground, they move forward whilst we are still climbing hurdles.

This is not a negative but a frustrating angry post.

Will Mabon
102 Posted 15/06/2021 at 16:15:46
Dave, let them add some more greenhouse, who cares. We're building a huge stadium complex.
Will Mabon
105 Posted 15/06/2021 at 16:32:40
Dale, many threads take diverse routes away from topic and football. Less often, do people scream "Fuck off" in first response. I guess you're triggered. Me personally, I don't want a globalist stooge, coached and placed child pushing an agenda by trying to pull emotively at people's heart strings and naivety. I won't fuck off, but thanks for asking.
Dale Self
106 Posted 15/06/2021 at 16:40:43
Will, look man, the trigger is happening when you visit 4chan and then come here with some overcharged neanderfuck paranoia over others just doing their thing.

Weak attempts to agitate will receive the response they fully deserve So fuck off then

Dale Self
107 Posted 15/06/2021 at 16:40:46
Will, look man, the trigger is happening when you visit 4chan and then come here with some overcharged neanderfuck paranoia over others just doing their thing.

Weak attempts to agitate will receive the response they fully deserve So fuck off then

Will Mabon
108 Posted 15/06/2021 at 16:49:17
Not trying to agitate anything Dale, was simply my opinion in reply to another poster. Look to Greta and her handlers if you want to see agitation in action. 4chan - yes, OK.
Tony Abrahams
109 Posted 15/06/2021 at 16:49:55
The road that runs parallel to the bottom road (DockRd) James F, has already been completed mate. Two lanes going towards the city, and two lanes going away from the city.

It’s a proper dual carriageway, but I’d say driving towards the new stadium would be a nightmare, and think that the train would be the best route, for most of the crowd, because it’s a fair old walk from the city centre, especially during the winter months.

Anthony Murphy
110 Posted 15/06/2021 at 17:00:32
Thanks John - a great post
Barry Hesketh
111 Posted 15/06/2021 at 19:17:47
Just read that our neigbours are going to trial 7800 rail seats from the start of next season, which might be good for Everton when we eventually move to BMD as it will be a way to increase the capacity?
Paul A Smith
112 Posted 15/06/2021 at 19:18:16
David 101 I feel your point mate. On a very serious note, while Carragher and Neville were crying fake tears over the super league, the Champions leagues new arrangements were making sure the clubs made more money anyway.

The divide is about to grow and grow. Everton seem to do as little as possible to offend the red shite. We let them lead the way on everything. Now they have announced a rail seat plan for next season.

Believe me we are well left behind by the time Bramley Moore comes. As beautiful as The Bramley Moore plans look, the riches will be already in the big clubs pockets by a further stretch.

They are getting more fixtures in the Champions League and more seats. Its gut wrenching but Everton is near a forgotton club with or without Bramley Moore.

The divide will grow and grow while as per usual, it'll be far too late to deal with it. I don't care if it sounds negative and offends anyone because it is negative and its coming soon.

James Flynn
113 Posted 15/06/2021 at 19:25:58
Thanks Tony
Barry Hesketh
114 Posted 15/06/2021 at 19:45:48
Paul @112
It is negative of you, if BMD wasn't even a proposal where would Everton be? If Moshiri wasn't a bit daft in the head when it comes to spending his wealth, where would we be? At least he's trying to bridge the gap between us and the other big clubs, but he's trying to do it following 20 years of neglect and managed decline.

Everton can't control what other clubs do, we can only control what happens to us. If Everton were to have an unbelievable run of success winning five titles and five Champions League's guess what we'd still be in the shadow of our rivals. That's why comparing the two clubs' actions is futile we lost that war donkey's years ago.

Paul A Smith
115 Posted 15/06/2021 at 19:57:43
Barry its not just us its the rest of the football clubs. Moshiri has to get a stadium built or he will never be able to make a profit on the club.

Bramley Moore is spectacular but it won't bridge the gap. If Bramley Moore wasn't a proposal we would be where we are now. I am not sure what other answer there is to that question.

We have long lived in their shadow as you put it but until recently they have been catchable. If all the other clubs don't stand up now, we can forget about success in football as we know it.

We may one day get success from some other kind of division when the gap proves so big there has to be a break away league.

Philip Bunting
116 Posted 15/06/2021 at 20:32:40
When its 11 men v 11men it's always catchable. It's the defeatist mindset that is holding us back and it comes from within. Just glad Mosh has not got that attitude or he would never have got to where he is now.leicester City seem not to have it either and it's that spirit and mentality that is worth more sometimes than spanking 30mill on Bolasie...as an example.
Barry Hesketh
117 Posted 15/06/2021 at 21:09:54
Without Moshiri coming on board, despite the expensive mistakes he and the board have made, I think we'd be constantly looking over our shoulders at the teams behind us and having a very real threat of falling out of the Premier League. We needed a Moshiri type about four or five years before he arrived, since he has come on board, the financial clout of other clubs outside of the usual suspects has increased, and the limitations of financial fair play has made it even harder for Everton to make any progress, of course, if we had spent the money more wisely, we might have broken into that top six.

BMD alone will not make Everton a more competitive club on the pitch, but it will help raise the profile and generate more income for the club, without it, we are just another of a long line of 'used to be good' clubs.

Paul Birmingham
118 Posted 15/06/2021 at 22:05:06
Barry, @117, that’s a fair summary of Everton in 2021.

Bobby Mallon
119 Posted 15/06/2021 at 22:30:18
Paul 112,

What do you mean, rail seat plan?

Paul Markey
120 Posted 15/06/2021 at 22:32:07
I’m a commercial diver who’s worked on UXO ident jobs all over the Uk and Europe. I can offer a little insight into how these projects work.
The vessel currently in BMD will be carrying out a grid search using side scan sonar, picking up anything metallic. These are then logged as targets with pretty accurate coordinates, usually with in a 2-3 metre radius.
Then a dive team will begin searching for each target with a metal detector, there are ones that work under water. Each target will be dugout with an airlift and identified, it’s usually an old car wheel or shopping trolley.
If any ordinance is found it will be all collected in a specified area of the dock and detonated at the end of the project.
Depending on what quantity is found, it may very in where/how they detonate the ordinance, can’t be to close to dock walls.
I’d give the club a little leeway on this folks, I’m sure you’ve all had builders tell you it depends on how deep the clay is before laying foundations for an extension, that’s this but times a million. Who knows what will turn up in BMD.
This is just a general summary of how the projects I’ve been involved with have worked, unfortunately the one project I’d love to work on for free and I can’t because of bad timing, that’s Everton that.
Barry Rathbone
121 Posted 15/06/2021 at 22:40:47
Paul 120

Fascinating stuff thanks for the insight but I bet your life insurance ain't cheap.

Billy Roberts
122 Posted 15/06/2021 at 22:42:29
Brilliant post @120
Paul Markey.
Nothing like listening to someone who actually has experience in what they are commenting on, and also reassures you that we have Evertonians everywhere in every field. and on TW
Rob Halligan
123 Posted 15/06/2021 at 23:16:35
Paul, a very good post, giving us an insight into just how time consuming it can be to search, locate and then dispose of any such items than may be found in the dock and surrounding area. Do you have any ideas as to how long it could take to carry out these searches, and also an estimated cost to the club? Some think that these checks should have been carried out months ago, but as I stated earlier in the thread, why carry out such checks only for planning permission to be denied, or the government calling in the project and totally pulling the plug altogether.
John Keating
124 Posted 15/06/2021 at 23:27:04
Paul
They will side scan the dock bottom which will show up anything of any size
Then its a magnetometer to pick up anything metallic including all old ordinance.
Anywhere offshore we suspect there may be anything, especially around the UK coast, prior to installing oil installations or wind farms we carry out similar works.
There was a fair bit found around Seaforth when the present docks were extended as was out in Morecambe Bay.
Hopefully nothing will be found around BMD as trying to get rid of it will be a pain!
Paul Markey
125 Posted 15/06/2021 at 23:41:52
Unfortunately not Rob, but as you said in an earlier post the club could not have done anything until planning permission was granted. Can you imagine trying to guesstimate what an untold amount of work/UXO might be discovered in an unknown environment?
Paul Markey
126 Posted 15/06/2021 at 23:51:34
Who knows John, but I’ve worked extensively around the dock system and offshore for many years. Time and tide move all sorts around, a fishing trawler might drag anything up from the sea bed and then drop it when they see it.
Paul Markey
127 Posted 15/06/2021 at 00:03:49
Thanks Billy Roberts, I just want Everton to win, ANYTHING. UTFT
John Keating
128 Posted 15/06/2021 at 00:08:29
Rob
To side scan BMD and run a magnetometer sweep would take maximum 12 hours.
Depends on side scan sonar used as they have different area coverages but you could cover the dock in probably 4-6 runs
The sonar and magnetometer are portable so could be put on any size vessel, problem is the dock is relatively shallow.
Wouldn't cost a lot of money loads of companies carry out this stuff and the results are instantaneous.
Obviously if anything is down there it either needs inspected by divers or if ordinance is suspected safer checking it out with an ROV
We do it all the time offshore and not a big issue to be honest
James Flynn
129 Posted 16/06/2021 at 01:39:28
We are far behind because we're not signing young talent that can grow together. Instead we've had 5 straight years of catch-as-can player recruitment, resulting in a mess.

Paul Markey and John Keating - Thank you both. Good stuff.

Paul A Smith
130 Posted 16/06/2021 at 06:20:16
Bobby 119 the rail seats are in place for safe standing eventually. The club that were opposed to it for years will be the first to profit from it in the premiership.

Nothing more certain.

Matt Traynor
131 Posted 16/06/2021 at 07:05:57
@Paul Markey - the most important question, is can you confirm that the apocryphal story about the diver writing to his sister, explaining his job, and how he got stung by a starfish, on the er... starfish, is true or legend?

Onto matters BMD related. As someone who was involved, albeit on the periphery, of Kings' Waterfront (my employer was involved, and I got occasional days on the project in exchange for sourcing match tickets!), that was a true loss and would've changed our finances 20 years ahead of BMD.

However, one thing I hope they do is try to provide as much reason for fans to arrive early and enjoy F&B in various concessions run by the club. I can't recall the figures off the top of my head, but the new Tottenham stadium (pre-pandemic) was selling an incredible amount. with an on-site brewery and a dispensing system capable of pouring thousands of pints a minute, selling enough per match to maybe cover most of Bale's wages.

I hope the club wring as much coin out of the design as they can.

Mal van Schaick
132 Posted 16/06/2021 at 08:38:29
Knowing Everton, the new ground will be built before we have a new manager.
Martin Nicholls
133 Posted 16/06/2021 at 09:32:54
Matt#131 - I'm with you on your comments about the new Spurs stadium. I'd add that one of the reasons (apart from quality drinks!) for the success of their bars is that they've kept prices down – quite possibly less than, but certainly on a par with surrounding pubs.
Larry O'Hara
134 Posted 16/06/2021 at 09:42:47
Regarding the new Tottenham stadium. I visited for a match vs Norwich before lockdown and while impressed by the facilities did not find the atmosphere at all intimidating for the away team/fans. Yet inducing such a bear pit ambience is surely what we want BMD to do (among other things). Architecturally the flaw I think is the seating is too far back and not steep enough.
Danny O’Neill
135 Posted 16/06/2021 at 09:43:44
I worked for a company that was providing services to Tottenham and went to a meeting at the stadium the week before their test game, which I think was the U23s playing there in front of a reduced crowd. Can't remember exactly.

They gave us a tour and explained the concept was not just the magnificent stadium (it is), but to change the match day experience. They didn't want supporters bomb-bursting out straight after kickoff and leaving en-masse. The idea was to keep them in the stadium and spend money, hence a plethora of bars and literally restaurants serving up every style of food you can imagine cooked by chefs, not just sell pre-prepared pies and sausage rolls from counters, with a flat Chang.

The traditionalists in us would be horrified, but it struck me as taking Roy Keane's prawn sandwich brigade jibe out of the executive box and providing it to the regular punters. At cost obviously, but that's the commercial aspect to it.

Brian Williams
136 Posted 16/06/2021 at 10:06:40
Larry #134.

I believe the seats were designed with the maximum angle possible and to be as near as possible to the pitch. That's what I remember anyway.

Dave Abrahams
137 Posted 16/06/2021 at 10:08:23
Regarding doing the scan on Bramley-Moore Dock, if they find anything valuable, treasure troves, large bundles of drugs etc, is it Everton's and we keep it to go towards the cost of the search and also the cost of the ground? I hope we've covered all angles.
Ray Roche
138 Posted 16/06/2021 at 10:16:18
Danny, @135,

The prospect of good quality and, importantly, affordable food AFTER the match is a good idea, especially for those who have travelled any distance to get there. Or for visiting fans who want to make a night of it in Liverpool. I hope it's included in the BMD plans.

Football has changed enormously in recent years, and not just the diving species, the players who end up in intensive care when they chip their nail varnish, but more families are going now and I think it would be a winner. Here's hoping...

Dennis Stevens
139 Posted 16/06/2021 at 10:17:36
Larry #134 It sounds like Spurs have made the same mistakes as Arsenal with their new stadium. It's a magnificent building, but it's not really a football stadium - a football fan would never design it that way, imo.

Meis was, seemingly, aware of these concerns & expressed a desire to try & maintain a degree of intensity in the way the seating was planned. How successful that will prove to be is the question.

Danny O’Neill
140 Posted 16/06/2021 at 10:22:20
All hypothetical now as we are on our way to BMD, but with all the stadium debate over the decades, the only way I saw us being able to redevelop Goodison and stay in the same location was to do what Tottenham done.

Spin the pitch around 90 degrees. But then we'd have had to buy the Gwladys Street school and pay for a replacement somewhere nearby I would imagine. As well as those couple of streets of terraced houses between Bullens Road and Walton Lane. Like Liverpool had to. And it would have only taken a stubborn Kopite family to put a delay in that like the Everton ones who allegedly delayed the Kemlyn Road replacement by years.

It would have taken years.

Oh wait, it has!! But hopefully, this will be worth the wait.

Larry O'Hara
141 Posted 16/06/2021 at 10:31:29
Brian #136:

I am only going on my experience of the match compared to Goodison for example. Spurs were especially bad that day, of course, which wouldn't help.

No doubt somebody somewhere can dig out the actual dimensions of the stadium. It would be useful to compare to BMD. As you say, Meis was on it; I hope his successors are too…

Dennis Stevens
142 Posted 16/06/2021 at 10:36:16
Aye, Danny #140. Goodison Park redevelopment has always been my preference - but Moshiri never popped 'round to ask me!

If I remember correctly, there was some proposal that by expanding the footprint as you describe, the pitch could just be shifted through the Bullens to give more space on the side where the main stand is currently, & a small shift towards the Park End would open up the Gwladys Street end a little.

As for the houses, etc, it amazes me that any club wouldn't acquire as many of the surrounding properties over the years. Everton have been at Goodison for nearly 140 years so could almost certainly have acquired all the housing around the ground. I know they're not in the business of being a landlord, but the footprint could have already been in their possession to allow for future redevelopment/expansion.

James Flynn
143 Posted 16/06/2021 at 14:22:02
Around the time we first heard of Moshiri's interest in BMD, Tom Hughes provided an entire explanation, including illustrations, on how Goodison's capacity could be increased.

There was quite a bit of discussion about it in here.

Roger Helm
144 Posted 16/06/2021 at 15:02:31
Danny 135

Sounds similar to the US stadiums I have visited for football, baseball and basketball - scores of outlets everywhere for merchandise and every food and drink you can think of, including cocktail bars, sushi bars, kosher food etc. It is a great match day experience, but not cheap. I am not sure how it would go down in Liverpool, Americans are a lot wealthier than us.

Eric Myles
145 Posted 17/06/2021 at 11:38:36
Ian #28, do you have any professional knowledge of floating landing stage engineering and costs?

I don't myself but the ones I've used look like simple structures and they are always the cheapest to build.

John Keating
146 Posted 17/06/2021 at 12:39:05
Eric,

Spot on regarding floating landings. In the scheme of things, they are very cheap to install.

With the money mentioned to build BMD and refurb the pumphouse, a riverside floating landing stage for something the size of the ferries would be insignificant.

Boskalis, who appear to have the marine work for BMD, install these things worldwide ranging from a small yacht marina to the bigger cruise liners. They have everything in-house from survey, naval architects, engineering, installation, vessels etc.

Tony Abrahams
147 Posted 17/06/2021 at 21:46:32
The city of Liverpool is finally going to lose its world heritage status, which can only be a good thing imo
Colin Glassar
148 Posted 19/06/2021 at 07:40:25
UNESCO can go and do one if they want to. What do they want exactly? Do they want to turn the city into a modern day Pompeii? Or a thriving ruin like the Parthenon filled with admiring, camera wielding tourists?

Liverpool city council, and it’s planners, committed architectural crimes against humanity in the 60’s and 70’s where the fuck was UNESCO then?

John Keating
149 Posted 19/06/2021 at 08:17:11
Colin
Spot on
We have never recovered from our own councils housing decisions from the late 50’s to be honest
Colin Glassar
150 Posted 19/06/2021 at 08:39:58
John, the council planners almost finished the work Adolf and the Luftwaffe started a decade earlier and not a peep from UNESCO, English Heritage, Save the Mersey tadpole society or any of the other do-gooders around at the time!
Paul Hughes
151 Posted 19/06/2021 at 22:11:29
Interestingly, there was an august letter in today’s’ ‘Times’, defending Liverpool’s world heritage status, and quoting the benefits of the BMD development. It also pointed out that the waterfront is in a much better state now, that when the status was originally granted.
It was signed by a list of about 50 worthies - including: the several mayors; Heseltine;Prof. DBB; heads of the various development agencies; both bishops; and some hitherto unknown playwright by the name of ‘Wily’ Russell.
This is going to run and run.
Don Alexander
152 Posted 20/06/2021 at 00:16:55
Colin Glassar (various), I quite agree, led as a good lad should be by my 98 year-old Ma who experienced the '41 Blitz aged 17. She grew up in terraced streets within half a mile of BMD and knew long before the Luftwaffe arrived just how decrepit the whole area was and remains (and she still has all her faculties, unlike me perhaps).

Unfortunately (and God forgive her), she's a Red (Proddy Dog) given her heritage but she thinks BMD or summat like it is decades overdue to be the catalyst for something the city of her life deserves, namely prosperity and reverence based upon that prosperity, not mawkish sentiment.

That said, as a life-long Socialist she's not at all attracted to Moshiri or Usmanov.

John Keating
153 Posted 20/06/2021 at 00:41:16
Thing is Don the City recovered from the Blitz attacks, especially the May ones
To this day it’s never recovered from the blitz the council inflicted on the City from the late 50’s
Just think what might have been if they’d taken their time and renewed areas slowly, piecemeal, and kept the communities together rather than the scorched earth policy and decanting they did
Eric Myles
154 Posted 22/06/2021 at 03:24:49
John #153, what I remember from the 70's was a proposal to build a ring road through Liverpool which was why a lot of community areas were demolished and families moved out to new areas like Netherton.

There was so much opposition to the ring road that it was eventually stopped but not before a lot of CPOs had been executed and the bulldozers moved in.

I still hate Clayton Square development and still avoid it, the old buildings were much nicer architecturally. I can't remember though what used to be at the site of St. John's Precinct before?

Eric Myles
155 Posted 22/06/2021 at 03:37:35
John #146, if you look at the landing stage at the Pier Head it's basically a couple of metal arms attached to the sea wall and the landing stage by pivot hinges with the landing stage being a buoyant wood structure. Nothing complicated.

There are piled variants used by which the landing stage floats up and down between the piles that would be more expensive, but they are mainly used for boat moorings at marinas.

Also there are fixed landing stages that are piled but they would need to go farther into the river to eliminate tidal variations and would therefore be more expensive.

Derek Thomas
156 Posted 22/06/2021 at 04:11:56
Did we amend the Stadium Plans in case the WHO and/or English Heritage withdrew their support?
And they withdraw it anyway? Back to Plan A, lads.

Fuck them and their "not put a penny in the kitty but let it sit and crumble" principles.

Laurie Hartley
157 Posted 22/06/2021 at 05:14:16
We have had a few hammerings on and off the pitch over the last few years but it will all be worth it in the end.

I hadn't seen this video before so I thought I would post a link to.

Stadium Build

It will be a bear pit alright. They wan't know whats hit them when we get them in there.

Gary Willock
158 Posted 22/06/2021 at 06:57:50
Derek @156 - I read that it’s almost an extra £50m in total being spent by Everton to preserve the “look and feel” around the heritage aspect. And as you say, it’s still not good enough for these backwards tools.

Other developments around the dock have had to collectively spend hundreds of millions also, not to mention substantial council spend on maintaining areas not developed.

So, all in all, we’re spending half a billion+ as a city to keep the city looking like it did centuriy(s) ago. WTF?

Couldn’t agree more with your “fuck them” comment. Time for the city to start having ambitions to be compete with Singapore, Hong Kong, Sydney, New York, et al…..ASAP.

100% certain that would approach would bring us multiple times the prosperity as continuing to waste money on lunatics who’d rather see a rotting dock sewer than a wonderful stadium.

Derek Thomas
159 Posted 22/06/2021 at 07:06:37
John Keating @ 153; Spot on; All that Everton Brow, Shaw St and W. Derby Rd, both Gregsons, The Grafton, Low Hill, back down W. Derby St, Pembroke St, London Rd...and more besides; was a thriving community in 1960s when I used to knock around there.
By 1975-80 It was nearly all gone.

They wondered why the London Rd shops all slowly died - no customers...people will only come in by bus from Netherton, Kirkby and Croxteth for so long.
And don't even start me on the motorway were The Islington Community used to be.

We used to have a stall in the Old St John's Market, before It (allegedly?) caught fire one night and burnt down all on its own...hmm?
There used to be 1000's - tens of 1000s' of families in walking distance.

When I was 9 or 10, in the Christmas school holidays, my Gran was supposed to 'mind me' and I was supposed to carry bags of meat, sausages etc...and 1 time, I kid you not - a 24Ib turkey, only to have to bring it back as it wouldn't fit in her oven. Then take her money back and then come back again...that saw most of the day off...or other shopping and stuff for overloaded housewives, (you'd get a penny if you were lucky)...I mostly roamed around town taking in the glory of a still bustling city centre.
Yep in those day you could send a 10yr old to a moremor less strangers house, but of course it wasn't a stranger, it was 'Mrs So and So' from Christian St. Or where ever, then send him again to return half a weeks wages.
As you might tell it left a lasting impression.

Anyway; WH?, as somebody said - who? tell them to do one.

Danny O’Neill
160 Posted 22/06/2021 at 07:13:14
I don't care for the UNESCO label.

Our city has a proud history and proud heritage that we can be proud of regardless of that tag. It's irrelevant and not a priority. The future is. For the City of Liverpool and for Everton.

Does and has Manchester ever had UNESCO status? To my knowledge, no. They're equally proud of their city and their heritage, yet they've left us behind to effectively become the second city of the nation.

As I've said elsewhere, you look forward and seek to progress. You never forget your roots and remain proud of your history, as they are the foundations we are built on. As an individual, as a city, as a football club. But don't let nostalgia get in the way of progress.

Make a history future generations can be proud of, don't live in the past. Our forefathers didn't.

Eric Myles
161 Posted 24/06/2021 at 07:12:52
Good link Laurie #157, but that vid shows both ends being 2 tier and I thought that the home end was going to be a "wall" end?
Ron Sear
163 Posted 25/06/2021 at 15:06:27
Took a walk from the Woodside ferry terminal to New Brighton the other day admiring the view across the river. Quite frankly once you have passed the three graces UNESCO should be begging Liverpool to build anything at all that was remotely attractive on the dock sites. However, there are ninety seven jobs on offer at UNESCO at the moment so you could get serious money for moaning at people and destroying things on paper, there are clearly many ToffeeWebbers who highly qualified.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.


About these ads