Handicapped by Iwobi and Rondon, Everton surrender their home record

Is high time Iwobi pays off the consistent loyalty shown to him by his previous 2 managers despite delivering very little.

Gbamin on the bench... wonder if he'll get any minutes?

I wonder about Simms. Dobbin appears to have moved ahead of him in the pecking order. I was hoping he'd have a future with us.

(PS: I hope to come back later on this thread and eat humble pie.)

Rondon fills me with dread but he's all we've got.

This will be tough.

One thing managers don't seem to share with some fans is abject frustration at the sheer incompetence and lack of guts that Iwobi tends to demonstrate on the field.

And Rondon. It's now more than six weeks that he has been with the club, this will be his sixth appearance for us... How long does it take to get match fit?

So frustrating to see him dropped here. But here's hoping Alex and the boys can do the business today. COYB!

I guess the travel back from international duty was in Rafa's thinking…

Gbamin on the bench (finally) is interesting – the lad probably has till January to really impress; otherwise, he is out the door.

Win today because we just have to – it's a 6-pointer. I'd take 3-1 but expect a hard game. COYB

We need a better option than Rondon up top. He can't play counter attack or hold the ball up and doesn't look any fitter than a few weeks ago.

Pathetic.

That being said, we should have taken the wind out of their sails and been at least two up and the only thing stopping Iwobi being the worst player on the field is Rondon.

The standard of refereeing in England isn't up to much and this bloke isn't trying to raise it.

Thank heavens for Pickford with a very good save before the offside decision, even though he still looks as though that shoulder is worrying him.

We really need someone to come on at half-time to at least make West Ham worry about him. Hopefully, we continue in the second half as we finished the first which could see us home.

Change should be Iwobi. I've said it before on here that he's not anywhere near Premier League standard. Maybe not even Championship. He lacks some really basic technical ability. I can see why someone might have thought he had potential but he's a footballer who doesn't know how to strike a ball.

Give Gordon a go. He's actually a footballer.

Foul on Doucouré to set up their offside goal.

We've improved a lot after that start. They are out of ideas.

Poor miss by Iwobi, the lad cannot finish. Give him another 10-15 minutes playing central then take him off for Gordon, switch Gray back inside. Rondon cannot jump.

Still feel we'll win this, nothing to fear from them. Keane has had Antonio in his back pocket all afternoon. Expecting us to counter-press them with intensity second half.

Iwobi is like Jones from Dad's Army – constantly panicking.

I would like seeing Gbamin at least.
COYB!

We haven't had Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin for weeks, thanks to Sean Dyche's tactics of kick 'em off the field. The current squad is lacking all over with confidence or ability, as can been seen today and when Davies didn't try a shot at Old Trafford.

The era of Koeman, Walsh and Brands cost us today (looking at the bigger picture).

Crap – absolutely crap in a winnable game!!!!! Your fault entirely!

More unforgiveable was that we carried no threat throughout the game. It's like we forgot the identity that's served us well so far this season.

Get it forward early. Compete for the second ball. Get crosses in. That's what we are... and for some reason we were back to trying to play through midfield as though we have that kind of quality in defence and midfield.

I don't like the whipping boy mentality but how the hell did we have Rondon and Iwobi up top for so long? It's the exact opposite of 'up and at 'em'.

Who would you have instead? Gordon with no goals or assists career to date? Dobbin a young kid? No doubt Iwobi was poor, Rondon had his moments but the squad is crap.

Rondon's positioning was disappointing. Iowbi was hopeless. Pickford slack at a routine clearance and in organising his area for the corner.

Next week's recovery will tell us a lot.

Disappointed with today, I expected more from the team and Rafa.

I definitely put this one down to the manager.

Stick Dobbin up top with Rondon. Or Gordon straight swap instead of Iwobi.

Yes, the squad is crap, but if we're playing to our strengths, you can't have Iwobi and Rondon up top together. No movement, no threat, no point.

Arsenal and their fans must be looking at Iwobi in that game and can't believe what we actually them paid for him. He wasn't good enough for Arsenal and he isn't good enough for us. No other club anywhere came in for him other than us, they all seen how much of a crock he is! Why couldn't we?

Let's all hope Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison are back for the next fixture!

If he is the answer in attack, I have no idea what the question is.

We looked okay when we got it wide but had nothing through the middle. We need Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison back.

Iwobi wouldn't get a game in our Tuesday night 5-a-side team, even when we're short of players.

Not a great day but totally predictable.

Denis Stracqualursi would probably give a better account of himself right now.

A great chance to get up amongst the big boys fucking wasted... again. Our next can't come round quick enough for me now!

Iwobi was having a crap game, sometimes made worse by the presence of Rondon but crap anyhow. IMO should have been replace before half-time.

Defensively we were okay, if not 100% at our best, but up front we were absolutely fucking crap. Gave no chance for Gray and Townsend to have much effect. I've been a supporter of Rafa but this was shite team management for this game IMO.

And Rondon done nothing, at least Dobbin would have made some effort to at least close players down.

Forget this result and hope at least Richarlison is back for the next game.

We were poor today but, with Richarlison playing, we may have won that game with the few chances we had. Also, we're 1-nil down and we have every single player back for a West Ham corner! Where's the outlet?

Without our two best attacking options, we will always struggle.

Rondon is not mobile enough for either our style of play or the Premier League in general.

Iwobi is shite.

Mina and Keane are our best defensive pairing against physical teams.

Godfrey struggled 2nd half. I don't think they score if Mina is playing. Keane controlled Antonio, thought he was probably our best player, along with maybe Townsend who looked most likely to create something.

The general weakness of our squad shown up.

Rondon, he stayed on because at least he was showing the ability to get on the end of things and there was no viable option on the bench.

Iwobi just continues to be an enigma. He does some things well, but continues to have no end product and there's just something lacking – confidence or aggression, I don't know. He isn't a terrible player, but he is never the man who will stand up and decide a game – as Doucouré, Gray and Townsend have already done a couple times each this season.

Alex: 2+ seasons and not once. A player in an attacking position has to be a difference-maker, at least occasionally. In the absence of Richarlison, I would start Gordon ahead of him. The lad is physically much improved and will take his man on; he deserves a chance.

Seamus provided an overlap and some decent close support but that wild left-foot shot when Gray is standing on the penalty spot, unmarked is one reason why we need to get in a quality option at right-back.

Allan didn't play well today, not awful but not one of his better efforts. Gray struggled a bit to impose himself, unlucky not to score at the end though, great block by Zouma.

Oddly I fancy Newcastle to get a result against Spurs here, so should be no worse than 7th; not great... but not a disaster. Only 2 losses in 8 matches is not a bad return considering our injury problems, which are dragging on a bit.

I didn't expect much from today's squad, we are always outnumbered in midfield. Rice strolled around all day, with yards of space to dictate the game. We need players back soon.

What does it say to our young players – even if they are poo – that they still can't get near this team.

Liverpool get 5 against Watford; it will be interesting to see how we do.

Realisticall,y with as much possession as West Ham had, Pickford had only one save to make. We always seem to be able to give away "soft" goals on a regular basis.

Just a lousy game!!!

We trimmed the squad of millions of pounds in wages over the last summer. Hopefully that means we can spend again soon. Rondon is looking like a poor signing. I think this is as fit as he gets.

We need Dom and Richarlison back. Hope to see them training tomorrow. We can't afford to carry two players. This is the Premier League.

Thus far, we've got by on a few freebies, exceeding expectations. But the bloated overpaid bulk we've had for years is still here minus last season's two most creative players. Frustrating as it is, a lot of teams simply have better balanced squads than us.

Is Rafa the man? Don't know. Will Brands suddenly figure out how to sign good players? Probably not. For the time being, we are the plucky side with, as someone once said, a “small club” mentality.

Rafa's limitations are starting to show. Picks proven dross and slow to change. Admit it, Rafa, Rondon was a big mistake. And Iwobi is beyond a joke.

The buck stops at whoever (whoever!) runs this outfit. How can we go into a season with no cover for our forwards? Okay, we can't afford Ronaldo or Aguerro… but surely to God there should be players coming through the lower ranks.

As far as I'm concerned, we may as well cut our losses and get shut of Finch Farm and our so-called coaches and scouts and start again.

Frank Wignall, come home – all is forgiven!

I'm not saying they would have changed the result but, if a player is not on form, or have a lack of confidence, then the least you expect is effort, and I didn't see either of those two giving us that today.

We have had 2 years of Iwobi; in my 45 years of watching Everton, he's the worst professional player I've ever seen play football, either for Everton or the opposition. If I could, I'd sack Brands just for purchasing Iwobi.

The whole team were poor but has he ever, and will he ever grab a game by the balls? I don't think he has it in him.

If it wasn't for the wages, l'd have kept Bernard.

When you say no criticism of Benitez, wasn't it he who signed Rondon who is what he is?

And he keeps picking Iwobi.

I think that's the best 20 minutes he's ever had!

We do not have anywhere near the squad of Liverpool which equals us getting a draw or being beaten by Watford.

Pickford is to blame for their goal – all he had to do was catch or punch the ball away and no goal.

If Rafa persists in playing Rondon and Iwobi, then relegation fight looms. To be honest, I think we will be fighting relegation this season and only because we have a worse second string from last season.

It would be interesting to hear the views of those that were at the game but watching it on Sky our midfield seemed to be overrun in the middle of the park.

I thought he was finished after Sociedad but he is still able to compete in the Premier League.

Yes, it was a poor display but we were not actually thrashed by a team who finished in the Top 6 and playing in Europe.

The fact that we are now hindered by FFP and can't buy any players until we sell tells you just how bad our spending has been for 6 years.

The fact that we sold Lukaku 4 years ago and the only strikers we have brought in since are Moise Kean, Cenk Tosun and Solomon Rondon tells its own story of boardroom and managerial negligence.

The fact that we have still not found an adequate right back to replace a 33-year-old that's still first choice tells its own story.

Yes, West Ham had all of the ball but what did they do with it? They had only 2 really dangerous chances in the whole game, the Antonio challenge vs Pickford and the resulting corner which resulted in the header for the goal. Everything else was harmless stuff. To watch that and imagine we were outplayed is fantasy.

Take away those two opportunities and we had the better chances, such as they were. Unfortunately almost all fell to Rondon, Godfrey or Iwobi, none of whom I fancy to score, ever.

I figured Iwobi would get subbed for Gordon much earlier, but he was getting involved in the build-up play so I could see why he was left on. Ultimately though he flattered to deceive, which is his Everton career in a nutshell. He should be sold as soon as we can realistically find a buyer, take a hit on what we paid. There are teams in the league that would offer £15m, possibly a bit more.

Rondon - he had 3 shots in the 2nd half, all half-chances but he was getting in the 18-yard box and showing the instincts of a reliable striker, even if he is looking short of the required attributes to adequately replace a starter such as Calvert-Lewin or Richarlison. I have no idea if he'll ever get there, but I'm guessing not. Still, this is why he stayed on and I can't fault Benitez.

Dobbin is a raw kid with no record in senior football. It's the easiest thing in the world, watching Rondon underperform, to say "get the kid on" – it is about 95% probable that he wouldn't have done a thing, not even get into a dangerous position.

It's criminal the amount of money we've spent to end up with a squad like this.

Give your head a wobble, man. I can understand disappointment but seriously, take 10 minutes and re-read what you've written before submitting it. It is beyond daft.

Yes, Iwobi, Rondon and others very poor, but the man who lost us the game was Jordan Pickford.

His huge weakness is he does not dominate his box, and is useless claiming the high ball – not winning that challenge and allowing the corner was unforgivable. Then he claims he's hard-done-by.

He is always bossed by centre-forwards, which is why he punches so often. We can now start adding up the points he'll lose for us this season.

But the problem was bigger than just one or two players. A very sluggish first 20 minutes, a complete inability to pass to a fellow Everton player, little flicks or long hopeful balls that West Ham recycled easily for another 5 minutes of possession. Allan and Doucouré were unable to break up any of these stretches of play, we just looked overrun and incapable of winning the ball back or stopping them playing through-balls. Hard to believe this was the same team that competed so well at Man Utd. It didn't get much better.

It was obvious at half-time that it wasn't Iwobi's day but it took 78 minutes for him to be replaced by Gordon, that after the young lad had had a good game at Man Utd. Far too late. And as for not taking off Rondon, don't tell me Dobbin wouldn't have given them more to think about with his pace and mobility.

An abject performance all round, including the manager.

We will see.

A basic mistake decided a game between two ordinary teams with the same predictable battle plans. It concerns me that we do not seem to have one dependable centre-half who can organise the defence and communicate with the goalkeeper.

The lack of concentration and organisation that cost a goal in a match that we had no attacking options needs to be addressed. Winning ugly is reasonable given the Financial Fair Play restrictions caused by the waste of money previously.

Losing ugly at home when a contingent of fans still remain unhappy with the managerial appointment does not bode well for the future.

Iwobi and Rondon are not up to the responsibility Benitez gives them. Iwobi could do something useful in a leper colony and Rondon could help Venezuelan logistics, but footballers they are not.

I'm telling you that, if Benitez thought Dobbin would offer more than Rondon, he would have come on. Unfamiliarity breeds misplaced confidence, we see this all the time with our untested youngsters.

I guarantee if he'd been played instead of Rondon, the same fans would be writing off his career after a couple of games.

I would've taken a draw today but the better team won. And they weren't that good.

However, we are still missing a few key players and don't have a fit striker, so the return is still pretty decent. As ever, expectations at this football club need to be reset.

Bang on. Iwobi and Rondon are not good enough, the one because he never decides a game and the other because he is a big drop-off from our starting forwards and may be finished as a Premier League player.

Neither player was responsible for us losing that game though. We made an absolute arse of a routine punt into the box – which is all West Ham offered all match – and then Godfrey got bullied by Ogbonna on the resulting corner.

As I've already said, if Mina is playing, that corner is cleared, no problem. Ben has a lot of attributes but he is not a physically dominant centre-half.

I'll gather my thoughts in the Crown as I prepare to head back to London with the gloating Eastenders. Not looking forward to that journey.

Massive thanks to Martin Nicholls & John Hoggarth for sorting me out with a ticket. It will be 1am by the time I get home having left at 6 this morning. Still worth it. Always is.

And thanks to the gang in the Saddle Inn who showed great Scouse & Evertonian hospitality to the West Ham crew I sort of adopted on the train this morning and who jumped in a taxi from Lime Street with me! Great stuff gents!

To say that people criticising Benitez for that performance don't know what they're talking about is a ridiculous statement; we all saw the same game. Rondon and Iwobi were useless and had to be carried by the rest of the team, yet both remained on the pitch far too long.

We'll never know if Dobbin would have had an impact on the game because it wasn't even tried. What has been seen is the lack of impact that Rondon has. Benitez did nothing to change the game and for that he definitely can be criticised.

Can't agree at all. If I was Dobbin, I would want to know how Rondon was keeping me out of the team. He has pace and guile, something that left Rondon many years ago.

What is really worrying is that Rafa stuck with it – fucking why?? Everyone could see what was happening on the pitch, it was as clear as day, yet no changes up top. You could see Gray was getting pig sick of creating chances only to see them totally wasted.

If Dobbin is not good enough, but we all know he is, then why have him on the bench? Why bother?

A lacklustre performance in a tepid game showing how far ahead of the pack the usual suspects are. Of course, major absentees explain some of the day's events, but the attitude from the team wasn't right from minute one and never really looked right for the whole match.

Thankfully the team already has 14 points in the bag but any illusion some may have of a Top 6 or better league placing for this team is the same as previous seasons: pie-in-the-sky.

Rondon missed the target from 6 yards, for Christ's sake. Stop making stupid excuses for inadequate players.

Benitez chose to pursue Rondon and get rid of Rodriguez and Kean. This one is clearly on him.

I was starting to have hope for Benitez, but he's back to the previous 5 managers and picking people based on their price tag.

However, and maybe against what I've suggested to date, given our injuries, then perhaps starting Dobbin would be not a bad thing, for the following reason. Rondon adds next to nothing in terms of ball control, passing, pressing, shooting. Dobbin I suspect might just, just, add something in terms of pressing, given the guy's pace (and his ball control is really good as well).

So possibly a better contribution in terms of creativity but more so in terms of a pressing game – creating chances for other players from opposition defensive mistakes.

Yes, Benitez knows more than us, of course he does. Sometimes he gets it wrong and, in my view, he was wrong today.

I would suggest that there was not one Blue in the ground who thought that Rondon was anything other than utterly lamentable. Rafa thought different.

Rondon still looks like one of the over-the-hill boxers who came out of retirement after James Douglas flattened Tyson. Right down to the big elasticated shorts and puffing on the ropes, knowing that it's money in the bank. If he's an athlete, so am I.

I actually thought Iwobi was in good form before his injury but him and Rondon were dire today. Rondon is Calvert-Lewin without pace, power, fitness and worse technical ability. A few years ago, he was a handful… but I genuinely believe he'll be the worst striker to play for us in our history. I can forgive a player being poor but I can't forgive his lack of effort.

Supporters as well as the manager are fully aware of the poor squad we have, but can do nothing about it until if we are within the FFP rules in the next transfer window. We have gone a number of games without 2/3 of our better players missing and have done better than first thought.

We are starting this season with another new manager who has a really difficult job; he has not shirked his responsibilities and is doing okay with the hand he has been dealt. Other matches, his choices have worked out; today, they didn't.

We are only at the beginning of the season so people talking about fighting relegation are off the mark. Every team has bad games and this will not be the last that Everton will have, but I believe we will have more better than poorer games.

Today, we lost 0-1 to a team who are tipped again to be challenging for the Top 6, yet we are looking for 8th to 10th but, with any January signings, maybe higher. They may have had more of the ball but Everton had the better chances; they just went to players who were on for our injured strikers.

Just watching the Newcastle game, where it has been stopped and the players taken off the pitch for someone who needed urgent medical attention in the stands. And that makes you think, after all, it's only a game,

The issue is basically the shortcomings of the squad.

You can understand Benitez persisting with Iwobi, because we do need a player of that type. But I suspect the patience will now be wearing very thin indeed. Hopefully Gordon emerges.

With Rondon, maybe this is all about getting him fit. And he gives us height at defensive set pieces too.

Maybe Dobbin or Simms might benefit from some or more loan football?

What do we do is always on everyone's tongue after losses like that. One thing I know is we must not change the manager. What we need is a massive injection of cash in the guise of sponsorship or another buyout.

You're right, it really is that simple. We just lost to the better team on the day. Making excuses is just petty.

Coleman did really well with a couple of moments in the first half which got us on the ball and resulted in chances. Other than those and a couple of other moments, West Ham were the more likely to win the game and it leaves me wondering if the usual depressing Everton story will play out for the rest of the season.

Pessimistic, yes… but today gave little reason to be optimistic. The return of Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison may well provide some hope.

The head scratcher is how Iwobi is anywhere near the first team and Rondon offers very little. I understood lack of match fitness but the guy doesn't even jump.

Realistically this reflects more on the shocking way we've recruited over the past 5 years or so, a threadbare squad and no game changers on the bench.

Great start to the season but there'll be other days like today ahead of us.

He was mediocre at Newcastle and it looks like his time in China has dropped him to Division 1 level, if that. It was cruel to play him, embarrassing for him as well as us. If an academy player could not do better than zero, then the academy is a waste of time.

Iwobi might be rubbish but at least he was having an impact on the game of sorts, certainly in the second half. Yes, he's not good enough, but Rondon's contribution made Iwobi look good in comparison.

Even so, they both should have been hooked after an hour. Gordon is not proven to be entirely useless so he was worth trying, probably from the start, and any player on the bench would have been preferable to our Number 33. And if we were after height and presence, someone on the Live Forum suggested Dixie's statue...

Rondon worked his socks off. Iwobi was... well, Iwobi. The kids could be really good, he got himself into match-winning positions. Rondon put him off one and Ogbona blocked his turn.

I thought our whole team were off colour apart from Keane. We are, after all, similar to last season... good away, on the break, lacking craft at home.

Danny, good for you looking after the West Ham buddies. I lived in the East End in the mid 80s and me and my Everton mates drank with Hammers in Stratford regularly. Proper fans, unlike many of those London posers.

We sorely missed Richarlison and even more so Calvert-Lewin today. Against the better teams in the division, with our squad, you need your best players or you'll get exposed.

Today, with Iwobi and Rondon filling in offensively, they just don't have the class to hurt the likes of West Ham, a tough physical unit that is well organised. Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison can't come back soon enough or we'll have more days like today.

Very disappointed to see Iwobi start ahead of Anthony Gordon. The way he played against Man Utd, it was a tough call to leave him out.

He literally had one decision to make today. Iwobi or Gordon, I think he probably made the wrong one.

Shows the lack of depth we have. Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison start, we win that game.

How do we all know that Dobbin is good enough? Based on what, exactly? Benitez watches these players in training every day. He's never shied away from giving youngsters a go. if Dobbin isn't getting on the pitch, then he's not seeing it from him on the training field.

I can understand the argument for starting Gordon, as he impressed against Man Utd. But just because Rondon stunk doesn't automatically mean that Dobbin would have played well. One doesn't lead to the other.

Randon is probably the worst centre-forward ever to put on an Everton shirt... and Iwobi is absolutely shite.

If we remember a couple of years ago, many an Evertonian thought Calvert-Lewin wasn't good enough and now we wouldn't accept £70M for him.

The problem is Rafa never has, and never will, trust youth.

Iwobi is being indulged in the hope that he can come good. He will also command a higher fee in January if he plays regularly.

Iwobi is not only a shite player – I also think he's a jinx. Can any stattos out there tell us what our win rate is with Iwobi in and out of the team? I bet we're better when he's not even on the team bus.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, according to the old saying, and we have too many garbage players – starting with Iwobi and ending with Iwobi. He's the alpha and omega of shit footballers – while Everton managers persist in playing him, we deserve everything coming our way.

If we had a chamber of horrors, Iwobi would be the star attraction... alongside McCloughlin, Angell, Nyarko, Lawson, Krøldrup etc… Pay him his contract and get rid!

No point criticising Iwobi for me, I just never expect anything good from him so I'm rarely disappointed. The corner from which West Ham scored their winner should have been prevented. Again, I'm never surprised by a Pickford cock-up, no matter how well he plays.

I didn't think any Everton player stood out but thought Keane was the best of the bunch. He made the least mistakes, had a couple of good blocks so to me it showed how poor we were if Michael was the pick of them.

There will be a few poor results like this one as the season progresses. I think we will just have to grin and bear it, until January at least when we should make a couple of telling signings to strengthen the squad and cheer us up. I shudder to think what will happen if we don't make those signings.

And it was like eleven v nine in that most of Iwobi and Rondon's touches went to the opposition. How did Iwobi miss that sitter? Anthony Gordon would have scored that, as would Anthony's mum.

I don't think Arsenal have stopped laughing yet. They probably have parties where they laugh at the dopey scousers that bought him. And how long will Rondon take to get fit? Or is this it?

I didn't understand the set-up today. If Iwobi was left wing and Townsend right wing, what was Gray supposed to be doing? Whatever it was, it didn't happen.

Coleman, Keane and Doucouré played well today but the others need to have a word with themselves. I would have them back at Finch Farm tomorrow at 8 to watch the match over again. Rafa needs to think again as well.

There must be players in the squad who could have done better. And why wait 77 minutes to bring Gordon on when it was obvious at 20 minutes that Iwobi was worse than crap?

Talking of Dobbin and pre-season, the thing that puzzled me was that we gave Broadhead a new contract in June (age 23) then immediately sent him out on loan to a third-tier side (albeit a big team).

By the time he's done there, he will be 24 going on 25. So it seems unlikely he will become Everton first-team material at that point. I assumed we gave him the new deal to keep him in and around the first-team squad as someone who at least can dribble, run and has a few goals in him.

Essentially, he could be the kind of thing we are hoping the much younger Dobbin can do. I don't think he would displace Richarlison or Calvert-Lewin but I think he would have been a handier and cheaper option to have in the squad than Rondon, and based on experience, if not raw talent, at this point, he's more effective at this level than Dobbin.

I think that's a very good point about Broadhead. Him on loan to Sunderland does deprive us of options given our injuries.

Never mind no singing or getting behind the team but no getting angry with the usual things fans get angry or excited about. It was like a zombie crowd, really weird and as someone who's been going to Goodison since the '70s, it was like the crowd has finally been beaten to submission by years of dross.

Unfortunately, even Iwobi probably knows it that ain't happening for him at Everton. He has just had too many chances, and I don't think there is another team in the Premier League that has such an ineffective player in their front 3/4. He may do well for a team like West Brom or Norwich. Thank god we got Gray and Townsend. Imagine where we would be without those two?

I really don't know why Tom Davies is not tried out more? He would definitely do better defensively and he does tend to get into good goal scoring positions. Until Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison return, I would like to see Rafa play a front 3 of Gordon, Gray and Iwobi and a midfield 3 of Allan, Davies and Doucouré.

I thought Rafa's demeanour in the press conference was wrong – you don't let your opposition know in advance that Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison are definitely not playing. He could have kept Moyes guessing.

Tell that to Pickford who has been here many times before, including earlier in this very game!

After today, Spurs are sitting in 5th – one point ahead of us – with a -3 goal difference, compared to our +4.

They only managed to beat Newcastle by the odd goal today and, as far as I am aware, are not suffering any substantial absenteeism due to injuries.

I think things will improve dramatically, once Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison are back.

I agree that the crowd was mostly quiet and unmoved today, but there are a lot of factors for that, matches on a Sunday, unless, we're hosting a team like Man Utd or Chelsea et al usually lead to a quieter atmosphere than a Saturday game or a game under the lights.

Regardless of the day or the opponents, the Everton team on the pitch has to set the tempo for the fans to become animated. Today they failed to set the pulses racing, and given the absentees in our team and the slow start to the match, I wasn't too surprised with the low-key atmosphere.

It was a bad day all around; we can only hope that next Saturday sees an improvement from all parties involved.

Disappointed with the result. I'll reflect on the performance tomorrow when I give it more thought. I'm just pleased I got the blessing to be at Goodison.

Saturday. Watford home. We regroup. We win. I'll be there again.

Great to catch up with some of the gang in The Crown near Lime Street. I took my 2nd adopted group of Irons fans back to Platform 9 with me. Excuse the pun but they are hammered, happy and fascinated by my Schalke top!! Hopefully they'll go to sleep soon.

Good night, Blues.

Sadly been like that for a few years now, since Martinez's second season... give or take a few games. Hardly the 12th man.

I expected this performance. Doesn't make it any less disappointing. I thought our back 4 did okay, we kept them quiet. Our front 4 were uninspired. Of our starting 11, only Pickford played this last week. No excuses.

Much more of the same, entering a tricky spell, and Rafa's gonna need a hard hat.

Dobbin and Gordon should have come on after the West Ham goal.

Very concerned about Ben Godfrey too who has gone from our best player last season to distinctly average this season.

Doucouré and Allan continue to impress and Seamus is putting in a Herculean effort. Watford and Wolves next – both showing an improvement after a poor start. Let's hope the bubble hasn't burst again.

Lalalalalalalalala ohhh

I thought Keane was our best player, and Godfrey was being bullied by the end of the 90 minutes, in a game that was mostly controlled by West Ham, who I thought found it easy, playing against a team that find it hard to be compact.

Gray and Townsend were well marshalled, forced to operate in areas where they could do only limited damage. Allan and Doucouré, as in many games last season, were reduced to operating as auxiliary defenders. We made the game as difficult for West Ham as we could but tight games are often decided by a set-piece.

So it was that we conceded from a corner. That was no surprise because we always look likely to concede from corners, especially those swung in towards the far post. That we conceded from one directed to the near post was disappointing to say the least. On the other hand, when we win corners, we rarely look anywhere near capable of converting one into a goal. More work is required on the training ground to improve the way we deal with corners at both ends of the pitch.

I agree with Dave Abrahams that Keane was our best player this afternoon.

Right now, I'm surrounded by singing West Ham fans but equally moved having been to my spiritual home and place of birth. I'll be home in a few hours time and sit up to analyse with the dogs. They'll have me out early and we can talk things through. I love them; I love Everton more. And that's saying something.

And I'll be there next week too. Watford. One love. No other love!! Well, a different kind of love!

I'm going to be in so much trouble. My Everton. One Everton. Come on, Blue Boys.

Yes, Iwobi and Rondon are quite clearly the worst of the lot and Iwobi possibly being one of the worst players to turn out for us in many a decade, but there were poor performances from Pickford, Digne, Godfrey (second half), Townsend, Allan and Doucouré.

There appeared to be a real lack of energy, fight, aggression and most alarmingly, a plan! I find it hard to believe that there was no plan so I can only assume they were not capable of carrying it out. Some of the football, with and without the ball, was appalling.

Why the manager persisted with the team until almost the 80th minute before making a change was quite staggering. If you couldn't see how badly Iwobi was struggling and probably Rondon also, I really don't know what game you were watching.

We may as well get rid of all of the fringe players immediately. If they couldn't get on today then they will never be good enough in the eyes of the current manager.

A complete shambles all round today. We can only hope they recover next week and that Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison are back very soon. UTFT

"Football is no longer a sport," he said, "it's political money laundering."

Sutton & Savage just corpsed and moved on to some Man Utd fan who wanted to have the usual moan.

Pathetic.

There's not a huge amount to choose between these teams and will depend on injuries, manager efficacy and momentum.

It's been a decent start to the season. I just hope the rumours of Calvert-Lewin being out till Xmas are not true.

I don't think the squad depth is anything new, we are a club that operates a supposedly tight-knit ship and that has been the case for over 20-odd years since Moyes was in charge.

There is no real ambition at the club to build out a squad with 17 or 18 players of quality that replace like for like in the first 11. I don't see this trend changing, we get by with the bare minimum and expect to gets results.

Best we can hope for is an 8th spot finish.

We have our two best attackers injured, the result was hardly a suprise – it was always going to be a close game.

Our squad's only mid-table quality, we have been punching above our weight recently. When we have an injury or two to our better players, we are up the creek.

Those two stunk the place out.

We're finishing between 4th an 6th.

I'm not sitting on trains back to London with gloating fans, risking my marriage and upsetting the dogs for anything less than European qualification.

And Wembley in in May.

But right now I'm focusing on Goodison next Saturday.

It's not going to happen for Iwobi, is it? He's clearly like one of those horses that's brilliant on the gallops and freezes on the track.

No focal point or awareness up front. We need Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin back asap.

I agree with your assessment of the game, the better team won and deserved the points. I find it difficult to accept the heaping of blame onto two players when, with the exception of Michael Keane and Seamus Coleman, no-one came out with flying colours.

The way I saw it from the Park End was that West Ham had the bulk of possession in the first half, but Everton had the better goal-scoring chances. Of course it was a disappointing result and performance, but Everton don't hold the copyright to such games.

Playing poorly and losing is little different from playing well and losing, and for every winner there's a loser. Because I have no control over such things and lose no sleep, I imagine that I would be in the 'accepting mediocrity' category, but I can live with that.

I hate us making that ginger idiot look like Pep.

We played excellent crosses into the box throughout the match, Calvert-Lewin or Richarlison would surely have feasted on them. Rondon didn't. Lack of match fitness is one thing, but lack of technique is another.

I thought the corner from which West Ham scored should have been a goal-kick, I had a good view of it, but I haven't seen it again and it seems I was wrong, from the comments above.

Coupled with a 95th-minute equaliser from a dubious free-kick by Wrexham at Marine in the FA Cup, it's been a frustrating footballing weekend.

‘Vampire' who killed 10 children beaten to death by mob after escaping prison

Sometimes stubbornness and grit are admirable; not always, though.

I'm sure it's been mentioned but Iwobi was an embarrassment and Rondon looked like a washed up Sunday league player at best. With absolutely no focal point, then you ain't gonna score at this level unless the opposition gift you a goal.

Today was my little lad's first game at Goodison. I told him the tales of my heroes: Ferguson, Lukaku, Lineker, Latchford, Gray and Sharp… but the poor lad had to witness a motionless Rondon. You should've seen his face. This is it, son; you're in it for the long haul now…

I haven't heard that rumour but quite a few people sat around me in the ground believe that there has been a setback in Dominic's recovery and that he might be out for far longer than first expected.

Please explain what's wrong then with what I've said? Have I been missing us build out a squad over the last 20 years then?

"Well, lived my life and never stopped to worry 'bout a thing,
But opened up and shouted out as Kenwright won "K'ching"!
Wondering if we've done wrong,
Will this depression last for long?"

All together now with the chorus:-

"Won't yer tell me, where have all the good times gone?
Where have all the good times gone?"

Pickford produced a couple of good saves but his distribution was dreadful all game. The back four were all decent but we were crying out for a third man in centre midfield as Rice was in total control.

Disappointing but, without our two best players against a decent team, a defeat is understandable. I hate to pick on a player but Rondon has had enough time to be fit now but is sluggish, has no spring, no pace and lacks sharpness. He really should not be starting games.

As for Iwobi, he can't strike the ball either to shoot or to play a critical pass. He could have been subbed after 10 minutes without complaint.

Not Rafa's fault… but next week will be if he doesn't learn from this.

I admire your optimism and really hope you're right. I still think we're short and it might not be until next or season after that we can start really pushing for Top 6, providing we start getting the recruitment right and start putting a squad together with more strength in depth. I think we'll need to see a bench which gives us some real options and right now we are far off that.

Safe journey home. I've done that Euston to Lime Street journey a number of times.

Sadly our “extensive injury list” isn't the problem – it's specifically two players we miss. The rest of the injured offer little or nothing.

Anyway, nice to meet up with a few after the game, everyone of you cracking guys. I do not envy Danny sat on that train home. It was bad enough in The Crown, their singing. However, I spoke to a few of them and they were proper decent fans, West Ham.

You're probably home and hosed by now and hope to catch up with you and the gang Saturday. Do you agree Digne needs serious competition as well as obviously the right side. Total lack of vision today by the manager not making the changes at half time. Will we get also a striker in January. See you in the San Siro soon as we secure Top 4... ha ha.

Sorry, long day drowning usual sorrows mate.

We have pissed almost half a billion £ up the wall in the last 8 years. That's why we are in the financial do-do that we are in now.

Forget the fact that we squandered nearly £30 million on him in what was a panic buy after the failed Zaha pursuit.

Even if we had paid £2 million on the lad, it still wouldn't make my opinion any different.

He offers absolutely zero input, can't run with the ball, can't shoot, doesn't score any kind of goal, his passing is horrible and his reading of the general play shocking.

How he keeps getting picked to start is beyond me.

When he moves across to try and close a player down, he doesn't actually do anything other than run alongside the player. When he receives the ball, he either loses it, runs it out of play, or passes straight to the opposition. As a goal threat, he's non-existent.

Just what is the point in selecting him? I don't care if he's amazing on the training pitch; games are played in the real football world. The fact he stayed on for 79 minutes is just rank bad management.

I appreciate Rondon is playing as a lone striker and wasn't fit when we signed him but, so far, he's the worst Everton centre-forward I've seen and that list includes Rod Belfitt and Brett Angell. He wins little in the air, can't hold the ball up, and misses comparitvely easy chances. If he's the best back-up we have, then it's a serious indicement of our Academy recruitment.

Very poor team selection today meant we were effectively playing with the equivalent of 10 men, compounded with appalling game management to only change things with 10 minutes to go.

I agree, we need competition on the flanks. Both flanks.

It's late so allow me to be sentimental. I f@*cling love Everton. Despite what they do to me and put me through.

His big disappointment for me was getting into position for crosses. In the first half, he was 5 yards out of position, with other Everton attackers in position at the near and far post. The latter, Iowbi, getting his head to the ball.

In the second half, again he was out of position for a perfect Gray cross. He checks his run and seemed to be heading nowhere, only to be 3 yards off where he should have been. Gray's face said it all. He is now match-fit, but this was a big failing today.

Iowbi's only good play on the right was passing to Digne who has a left foot to cross. Iowbi does not have a left foot.

Iowbi when moved inside to get more on to his right foot, made a complete Horlicks of kicking the ball with his right, missing it completely with a open goal waiting. I just think that Iowbi is not wired correctly and never will be.

I saw your post after I posted mine. I forgot to say he fails to read the game so thanks for that.

When we signed him for £30m I thought he may be half decent as he'd played well over 100 games for them but an Arsenal friend said he was shite. I'm afraid he was correct. £30m? Good grief!

The scourge of the international break, the "it's too good to be true" after a better than expected start to the season, and after playing so well, versus Man Utd 2 weeks ago. Seemingly as feared, Moyes got a reaction today from his squad.

No complaints as the team that really wanted it, and won.

Another great chance to make a point and get some air space blown in classic style at Goodison.

If, and if, how many times, in a lifetime, with matters EFC. But if we'd had Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison on today, it would have been a win, that I'm convinced.

But at the moment we need them back and fully fit and to beat Watford well and to get the Wolves beaten..

A good start to the season, old record, it's to be broken, and made today, it took me back to a game v West Ham about 40 years ago, and Jim Arnold was in goal. I think it was Geoff Pike who done an up-and-under cross-shot from out on the Bullens Road and Jim Arnold, done the equivalent of a Stewart Kennedy attempt to parry the shot.

But at the end of this game, Everton didn't do enough and were too timid... and arguably alehouse in front of goal today and in the main in the midfield.

Let's get our squad back to fitness as it's clear that like today missing a few key players like Calvert-Lewin, Richarlison, means that without strength in depth, you'll lose more games than with a full fit squad.

Tough lesson, today; let's hope Everton can learn.

The chances missed today, if taken, could have changed the game.

Enough has been said on this thread about the chances spurned and lack of attacking threat.

Let's read The Runes, and in time for Watford.

Oh and Rondon finds his form and legs when hell is well and truly frozen over!

And Iwobi, who the hell thought he was a footballer!? Maybe our scouts are double agents!!

Where we would be without Gray and Townsend is bottom half for sure. Tactics may have worked so far but this way of playing with 30% possession each week is soul-destroying. We limited West Ham to a few clear-cut chances but the ones we had were more clear cut.

All is not lost on one result but our manager has to find another way to play. I'd like us to put our foot on the ball for a change. It might also help if we put lwobi on the wrong bus home. Yet another player to add to the long list of signings that will leave us for free. Soon to be Sigurdsson, Delph, Tosun.

Only another 2½ years to go before we see the back of Iwobi. Perhaps ToffeeWeb Editors can put up a countdown clock!?

I think Rondon did alright. He's close to scoring a header and also held up the ball reasonably well. We just can't compare him with Calvert-Lewin. He's a back-up.

Also, I do feel Gordon should have a chance next game.

Schalke provided some solace, this weekend, but hope eternal in all matters EFC.

Watford is a must-win game, and no doubt they will learn to press rather than stand and watch, like yesterday vs the RS.

A tough game but Everton must win this game.

Those sort of mistakes take years to recover from and we've still got another couple to suffer. I'm glad we've got a proper manager to navigate us through some very difficult times ahead.

On hesgoal, they compared the shots on target to percentage possession in the first half and stated Everton had 4 shots on target to West Hams 2. In the second half, Everton had 2 shots on target from Rondon that I saw.

But since you paid to go, I will go with what you saw. It makes Everton's performance worse though and the report on this thread regarding the stadium atmosphere more explainable.

Hesgoal's stats could be a bit off, like their coverage, which was intermittent as usual. .

If you look at the West Ham corner late in the game, where we have no players at all as an outlet, then it shows the mindset of the manager to defend at all costs. Just one player upfield gives them something to think about.

Maybe Rafa needed somebody to talk Spanish to because I can't see any single reason why Rondon should be near our club, especially as we are already trying to shift a load of shit out from previous mistakes. Disgraceful signing.

While we are on the subject of Pickford, what is all that about, pulling both his shorts legs up? Anyone else notice it, normally when facing a free kick??

What a mess we are in for the comment above to be true…

I note that one poster above criticises Gordon for not having scored any goals or created any assists. That is difficult to achieve if you aren't being given much game time. Gordon is a far better footballer now than Iwobi will ever be.

Iwobi's very first act in possession to put in a pinpoint pass straight to the feet of – Pat Rice! Iwobi can't pass, shoot, cross or tackle and has only got a couple of goals in over 80 appearances. How can any manager persist in giving him more chances??? And I don't give a damn how good he looks in training at Finch Farm.

Plaudits to the players and fans for how they dealt with the medical emergency at St James Park and saved someone's life. By contrast, in the earlier match, a lifeless corpse was thrown onto the pitch at Goodison Park and no-one did fuck-all about the situation for over 90 minutes. Rondon should now be declared DoA as six attempts to revive him have all failed.

As to not risking the youngsters, Gray created chances that Steven Hawking would have got to and put away. Dobbin or Simms would have gleefully taken one of them. You could see Gray's frustration at his efforts being wasted.

The only thing that will live in my memory from this match is Iwobi's two-footed air shot from 4 yards out. A truly exceptional skill. If Charlie Chaplin had made a football movie, then it would have been based on Iwobi – the complete clown.

Ranieri will be praying that Iwobi and Rondon get yet another chance to prove themselves next week.

It's all very well to hang it on Iwobi and Rondon, and God knows they were dreadful, but there was no desire to get forward and I doubt West Ham will get an easier 3 points all season.

It wasn't as if they were any good, we just didn't turn up. Not sure just what the game plan was but how Benitez didn't see what was going on and remove Iwobi for Davies, or get some urgency by pressing higher up the field?

I don't know... 4 am to bed again... woke up fed up...

The other players must realise it too by now. The look on Gray's face during the second half. He put at least 2 chances on a plate. I really want him to score, even as much as l wanted Li Tie to.

Iwobi l have no sympathy for. People on here moaned about Sigurdsson or Walcott, before then Osman and Hibbert. This guy needs to find his balls. Take responsibility, find his mojo, take charge of his career. He's wasting his time and ours. What does he want to be?

Having your head in your hands doesn't mean you care or are just unlucky, it means you've fluffed your lines again. (I'm trying not to swear to keep my blood pressure down.)

He's been given a fresh opportunity by our manager. He needs to take it, or else what? We are stuck with him because – even if we can loan him out, paying half his wages – it gives very few options for us to re-invest.

Remember one of Moyes's old lines: "You need to be a good player to get into this Everton team." Well, not any more.

From what we have seen, he does not seem to have much faith in our younger players. In that case, he may have to be creative in choosing a leader. In the past, Steve Watson was able to cover as a centre-forward. In fact, he scored a hat-trick!

I just think that we do have defenders who could possibly play up front. How about Godfrey, Holgate, Keane or Mina? They would surely do better than what we have now. I am not being facetious but, in times of desperation, what else can we do? Preferably we get Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin back.

Iwobi: somebody said he was good prior... maybe so, but only compared to the utter gashness – similar to today – that he usually puts out. It's a low bar, no way should he have started.

Gordon: must be severely pissed off. He did enough to keep his place. It's impossible to say if he would have played better than Iwobi – though it's hard to imagine he'd play worse – or that the result would've been any different.

If Gordon had replaced say, Salah vs United... and had a decent game, then you could see the case for bringing Salah back in. But Iwobi??

When you have a weak squad and play with 9½ men, who then proceed to have a collective off-day – what can you do?

Ranieri will have watched and inwardly digested West Ham's Plan A; get it in the air under Pickford's crossbar, will do for a Plan B.

Let's hope Benitez did the same – and doesn't try the same – and that he doesn't rush Richarlison back too soon either. Or, if he is fit, leave him 1 on 3.

However, West Ham appeared to have another couple of gears if necessary as well. A gentle reminder that we will need to fight for every point this season as we are fairly ordinary if it isn't 11 men pulling in the same direction.

I thought Gray did his job today. At least four winger shimmies and killer crosses. What more can you expect from a winger?

The pisser is, about 10 minutes before the goal, I thought shot-stopper extraordinaire Pickford is improving his goalkeeping craft. For fuck's sake...

Also, it's not Rondon's fault. We had this gun striker at our local club. He should not be anywhere near the Premier League without buying a ticket. Neither should Rondon. Not his fault.

Another thing, Gray and Townsend? Who brought them in? Brands or Benitez?

What does Brands do for his £1 Million a year? He looks cool, in a mid-1960s sort of way, though.

I recall that it's not so long ago I was fighting a certain Calvert-Lewin's corner, both on here and in the Gwladys Street, when many were screaming for his 'useless' blood. I was one of the few who saw his potential, applauded his work rate, made allowances for his youth, and criticised the players who failed to supply him with enough chances to improve his game. When, all around me, Evertonians were calling him a Championship player at best.

Rondon, regardless of his age and experience, has been thrown in at the deep end. Yes, his first touch certainly needs to improve, as does his workrate and overall sharpness. But I honestly feel that a couple of goals could make all the difference and give him the confidence he needs. I don't know what his strengths are, as he's failed to show any yet! Hopefully, Benitez knows something about him that we don't.

Godfrey was poor today, but he wasn't alone. Iwobi was dreadful. I've tried for so long now to give the lad the benefit of the doubt, but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to do so, if not impossible.

However, the villain of the piece for me was undoubtedly Rafa. Not just for his naive team selection and tactics, but for his stubbornness in not making half-time changes when clearly the plan wasn't working. Without Iwobi, he could have picked either Davies, Gbamin or even Holgate to partner Allan in a defensive midfield partnership, allowing Doucouré to push further forward.

Not only would the wingers and Rondon have benefitted, it would have stifled the freedom that Rice was allowed. He ran the show and was the main reason, particularly in the first half, that West Ham overran us.

True, Rafa's choices are critically low with injuries stretching the squad to its limits, but nonetheless, I believe he got formation and selection badly wrong today in crucial areas of the team.

The best team won today.

We don't have the bench to cover those two not playing. We need 2, maybe 3, good windows to compete top for top 4. Until then… mid-table.

As for the goal, just what was going through Rondon's and Godfrey's minds. I noticed a couple of times Pickford having a word with Rondon about standing so close in front of him at corners. If one thing did come out of this game, it is that Keane and Mina are our best central defenders.

Injured players recovering, dropping out-of-form players, and occasionally taking a chance on youngsters should see an improvement. Can it get any worse or just the opposition better?

I was discussing with my brother on the way home last night. We saw different games. As I said to a few of the gang when we met after the match, I saw a nothing match. I didn't feel threatened and was waiting out for the 0-0. We didn't do enough to win and wouldn't have deserved it. I haven't looked it up and won't, but although it seemed West Ham had more of the possession, I thought we had the better chances. As Paul Birmingham & Mark Wilson have said, I think had Calvert-Lewin or Richarlison been on the pitch, we'd have got something out of those chances.

My brother, however, saw it different. He said it was a very controlled performance by West Ham, which some agree with reading above. I'll caveat: he's a Moyes-era fan and still holds a place for our second cousin (I think he's that)!!

But I see his point. On reflection, they had the midfield. Doucouré was subdued. Was this because they pressed us? It didn't feel like it but maybe those who watched on the screen may have had a better view than me? Or was it the problem we have with the defence sitting deep, which has a knock-on effect in holding the midfield back?

I'd said before the match, and said it during the match, we don't want to be trying to beat this lot in the air with crosses. Keep it on the deck and use the width and pace. We kept lumping crosses into the box, especially towards the end, which was easy meat for the West Ham defence and goalkeeper. I'm not going to have a go at Rondon. I just wouldn't have started him for that reason.

Positives? Gordon looked neat when he came on. And the fans. Although not Goodison at its best, and yes, a few grumbles at the end, a lot were still there and gave the players a clap off the pitch. Particularly Gray and Godfrey, who came over towards the Gwladys Street & Bullens Road.

Apologies if I'm as scattergun as our transfer strategy, but a couple of other points.

Kevin & others. I'd recommend reading the recent article in The Athletic to get context on the job Brands has had to do and continues to have to do. It is really well balanced. And whilst not a complete case for the defence, it adds a lot of context and talks about laying foundations at academy level, as well as interference at board level in transfers. And the obvious job of clearing out the deadwood we've assembled and an U23 squad on Championship wages.

Last one (I promise). John Boon. Now if you're going to push me on that centre-back as a centre-forward one, if needs dictate, I'd opt for Mina. Let's hope we don't have to go there!!!

It was just an archetypal after-the-International-break performance by Everton. The work was not put in at Finch Farm. They were a yard short.

I thought Rondon was better, but was woefully inadequate getting into position for crosses. It wasn't his fitness. On the Gray cross he attempted a detour, rather than attacking the cross. Iowbi was as described. But the team was not up to it. As I said earlier, even Benitez was sitting down more.

Next outing will tell us a lot about Benitez's progress in turning Finch Farm around. The problem I see is that the poor work of previous regimes, with the perpetrators largely intact, could be a "Get out of jail free" card to Newcastle, that Benitez may think it is best to play.

Who would blame him on that effort? West Ham will finish mid-table. A near-post unchallenged header from a corner said it all.

I think you'll find there's just the one, being perpetuated by repetition on various sites.

That, unfortunately, is how rumours – many totally unfounded – spread.

After that, I thought we were the more dangerous team and should have scored two or three before they nicked one and managed the game out comfortably. As others have said, with either Calvert-Lewin or Richarlison in the team, we would probably have won.

Which brings us to the miserable subject of Rondon and Iwobi. The former must now be considered fit and wouldn't be a starter at any Premier League team. It's bad luck that both our strikers are out but getting Rondon as back-up was clearly an error.

Iwobi is a mystery. His teammates talk about how good he is in training but, on the pitch, he was dreadful in the first half, though marginally better as the game went on. His confidence must be completely shot. Gordon surely must start next time if it's a choice between him and Iwobi.

Can you tell me that a half-arsed, not-fit James would not offer more than Iwobi?

Pickford's cheat sheet exposed

While driving to the game, I was amazed that Benitez had selected Iwobi over Gordon. Surely if the kid was good enough to start at Old Trafford and putting on a decent show, he should have been allowed to start yesterday?

The game started the same way most of our home games have started with the away team having most of the possession; why do we always start so sluggishly at home? Took a good 25 minutes before we started to put anything together and Gray laid on a gold-plated chance but somehow Iwobi managed to miss the ball altogether.

Iwobi is a coward of a player whenever the ball was played out to the fullback, which he should have been closing down, he keeps looking behind just to make sure he doesn't get close enough to put in a tackle. Even when we are going forward and he gets the ball, his first thought isn't to run at the opposition, it's to pass it sideways or backwards rather than taking any responsibility.

I thought yet again Michael Keane was our best defender, just a pity that Mina couldn't partner him due to travel and international games.

I have said on here before I have reservations about Ben Godfrey playing at centre-back, and again yesterday a poor attempted clearance led to the corner which led to the goal. Again he failed to beat Ogbonna to the ball; this can happen but why have teams stopped putting a man on the far post from corners? The amount of goals scored directly from near-post flick-ons from corners, or the chances it creates for a far-post tap-in is happening a lot.

The one bright spark is Demarai Gray, he is a very talented footballer and, when we get Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin back, he will have players he can play with up front.

I think everybody has commented on Rondon's lack of mobility. I think by now that's as fit as he is going to be. It's like watching Stracqualursi without the running.

Benitez said that Richarlison was closer than Calvert-Lewin to making a return; let's hope it's next week he returns as we desperately need him.

Finally, I saw the possession stats for the game yesterday and West Ham had 62% possession, and if memory serves me correctly I think apart from the Norwich game we have been 2nd in possession stats in most games and that's a worry. Yes, sometimes you can have less of the ball and win, as we already have this season, but by and large over a season, less possession usually results in more defeats.

When that ball was crossed yesterday and he swung at it and missed, he should have put his own hand up and said "Take me off."

He will not start the next game after that, I'll put my house on it. Pitiful display from a nervous wreck of a footballer. Please give him away so we are not forced to have to play him. Gordon every time please. Give him a run and build his confidence.

I'm fine with having less possession than the opposition. But to play counter attack, at home, with the immobile Rondon and ponderous Iwobi up front, was dumb.

We didn't need to have more possession but we did need to put West Ham under some pressure. There's a way to play Rondon and it's not by isolating him. What happened to going direct, getting players up in support, swinging crosses into the box?

Yesterday was back to the first half against Southampton. Trying to do too much in defence and midfield. Not one of our centre-backs or centre-mids is equipped for that. It's no coincidence that Doucouré and Allan had their worst games in a while when were asking them to do the opposite of what they're good at.

"I presume that every other team will be looking for Pickford's water bottle before each game kicks off from now on then:

Pickford's cheat sheet exposed"

Well spotted by a certain Mr Whetstone at West Ham – very sharp.

I guess Iwobi has something similar on his wrist telling him which is his left foot and which his right.

Juventus 1 Roma 0

Total fluke.

As for Iwobi, I don't need to pile into him anymore than people have already done, we all know how frustratingly poor he can be. I'll never get over him bottling the penalty shootout against QPR.

I think Benitez picking him over Gordon was pure and simple him being pig-headed and saying "I'm the boss," because he was asked some questions about Gordon following a good display against the Mancs. It was his way of putting him back in his box. Don't tell me Iwobi offered more defensive cover than Gordon would.

It was clear from the outset that, with the excellent Declan Rice running the show, that Duke was dropping deeper and deeper and our mid field creativity was virtually non existent. When we did get the ball there was no out and with Iwobi consistently failing to find a blue shirt and Rondon constantly out of position (the lad next to me in the Park End commented that if Rondon stood still in the centre circle then at least West Ham would have to go round him). Allan was anonymous and chasing shadows for much of the first half.

The major surprise as the players came out for the second half was that Iwobi was among them. It was obvious that he was contributing nothing and indeed his inability to pass the ball accurately was one of the reasons we were under so much pressure. The introduction of Tom Davies would of enabled Allan to sit more effectively in front of a back 4 that was being run ragged by Bowen and the excellent Antonio. It would also have enabled Duke to push higher up the pitch and given us an out ball.

Benitez' obsession with Rondon is plain baffling. Rondon has no anticipation, he waits for the cross to come in before he moves, meaning that he is always a foot short of the ball. If we had one benefit from Ancelotti it was DCL's increased awareness and it is fair to say the excellent service from the wings this season would have seen him close to double figures already. The non introduction of Dobbin or Simms was just plain ridiculous. Rondon was offering nothing in terms of goal threat, Zouma and Ogbonna can rarely have had an easier afternoon, so test them with something different - a bit of mobility and pace. If it doesn't work you have lost nothing because it wasn't working in the first place.

Finally, Jordan Pickford. When things go wrong his mentality just changes completely, his antics after the goal and through to the end were quite ridiculous and did absolutely nothing to help the team. His distribution yesterday was shocking. To be fair the ball did come off Antonio for the 'corner' that led to the goal.

Think it is coming to something that playing West Ham at home and we have 2 shots on target, 38% possession and our MOTM is Michael Keane. As the West Ham fans in the Crown loudly reminded us, they are going on a European tour, something we won't be doing for quite some time.

Ernie, now you frame it like that, yesterday is making a bit more sense to me. Rondon was isolated from our deeper sitting midfield and back line and he's just not that type of player. Even Calvert-Lewin struggles when isolated, but yes, better suited to being used in the counter due to his mobility and work rate.

Denis, I for one never doubted Kean's ability or potential. And at 21 he's only going to get better. Shame he just doesn't seem to want to be at Everton.

But he's still our player right? So either a charm offensive to coax him into giving it another go. Or just keep banging them in for Champions League clubs to increase the price tag. Win-win!!

Godfrey reminded me of Holgate, who also has potential, but is another who I've seen getting bullied by big centre forwards in the past.

My own opinion is that Godfrey should have been the player sweeping up, because whilst we continue to defend to Michael Keane's strength, we will continue to give to much space to the opposition in the midfield, who were already a man down yesterday because of a £30 million, Marcel Brands signing.

Such was the case yesterday, I, like almost everyone else couldn't believe that Anthony Gordon after his second half showing against Man U, was overlooked in favour of the usually hapless Iwobi. After a short period where we were pinned in our own half by the Hammers, and we did eventually get over the halfway line, it was obvious that Rondon's barren spell was about to be extended, and assisted by Iwobi, who was displaying the Cow's Arse and Banjo syndrome to a tee.

Alas, there was a glimmer of hope early on, where we could see Gordon, Dobbin, Davies and Mina all warming up, Rafa has spotted what we were all seeing I thought, and was surely going to make a change to rectify the Ham Act (ironic pun given the opposition) and get us all cheering our boys on. Unbelievably they all sat down again, presumably under instruction.

So we get to half time, miraculously still on level terms with the Bubble Blowers, and most are thinking (Rafa) he'll make the desperately necessary changes second half, but No again. I often wonder if Managers are told, we have paid an arm and a leg for such and such a player, and we are paying him a Lottery Win Wage every week, so if he is breathing and has a pulse you must play him !

I was almost reluctantly settling for a lucky 0-0 draw, when again the Ref and Linesman awarded a W Ham corner when it clearly came off one of their players. I was sitting in the Main Stand and fairly close the corner flag by the Park End where the alleged corner was given. Of course the inevitable was to happen, and it did.

I said to Peter Moore who was sitting next to me, this will force substitution(s) and hopefully galvanise them into attack mode, again, it didn't happen, and there was seemingly little or no urgency or desire to go for at least a draw, as there was still enough time technically to get two goals and win. My optimism sometimes does encroach on Fairy Tale proportions.

We were certainly not 'Happy Ever After' that dungfest, but after being on the Walk from Bramley Moore to Goodison pre-match in aid or support of Mental Awareness. Bill Griffiths, Jim Lloyd, Neil Copeland, Stephen Vincent, Brian Wilkinson all met up by the Holy Trinity after the Match and got the soccer bus to town where we eventually got to the Crown to team up with Danny O'Neill.

That was the highlight of the day, but it was difficult to talk as the cacophony of euphoric West Ham fans singing constantly, drowned us out for the most part. It was all good spirited though, but there was a certain degree of envy there too, as the Home side it should have been us celebrating, possibly less vociferously but they certainly burst our bubble yesterday.

It is - I saw him spill it!

By the way, can someone please explain to me why, when 1-0 down, we have two corners and put everyone back in the box?

The second of which Gray hacks it clear to the half-way line, where two West Ham players happily control the ball and maintain the pressure?

Nothing much I can add to what's already been said about the match and woeful performances of two particular individuals. Anyone else think that, had we not shipped out two others (James and Kean) and played them in place of the two stiffs (one retained and one recruited) yesterday, the result could and probably would have been very different?

Good to see you yesterday, Danny and the West Ham boys (all good lads) you brought with you to the Saddle. We've got a contact number for them and are hoping to meet up with them (and you) when we play them away.

Wonder what Andy Carroll is doing for the next month or so.

They showed it again on Sky. It was a complete accident. Soucek had gone down and Rondon had turned away to follow the ball, barely caught him with his back foot. Could not have known his face was there.

Retrospective ban is complete nonsense... mind you, I could be persuaded – it's the only thing that will stop mad Rafa from selecting him again!

Michael - I was thinking it but refrained!!

I think most fans are thinking "Will we ever have a team that can challenge for trophies again?" We have had so many false dawns that I think most are very wary of thinking things are changing because quite rapidly we find out that they're not.

Whatever possessed Benitez to sign Rondon is slightly puzzling as he was never the most energetic in his prime, and if as seems is Benitez's plan to play fast counter-attacking football, it's hard to see what Rondon brings to the party. Now I know he was only bought as someone who could come on for cameo displays, but shouldn't we be buying players who, when needed, will be able to play in the style the manager wants?

The next couple of games are very important because, after that, we have a run of playing the better teams in the league.

Remember Richarlison's that came off the post and hit him on the thigh last season? He was in the right position and records will show he scored a goal.

Bernard - sold
James - sold
Kean - loaned (with an agreement for sale)
Sigurdsson - not available
Delph - permanently injured
Tosun - permanently injured
Gbamin - bad luck, never available, may never reach the required level
Gomes - mostly injured this season
Pickford - was injured and unavailable for a couple of games that we lost
Coleman - was injured and unavailable for a few games, and should have had a worthy competitor 3 years ago
Calvert-Lewin - our most consistent goal scorer, out injured for the last 6 games (out of 10 competitive games that Everton have played so far)
Richarlison - our most hard working forward, out injured for the last 5 games

And we have replaced them with Gray, Townsend, Rondon. (I don't count Begovic and the other back GK.)

If it had not been for Townsend and Gray, we would have been in the bottom 5, of that I have no doubt. But here is the thing, WHEN Dominic and Richarlison come back, and IF Brands and Benitez can reinforce the squad in January and IF we don't have any other major injuries, we might still end up fighting for the higher end of 5th -10th places.

Obviously missing your best two strikers/players makes a big difference take Kane/Son away from Spurs, Antonio/Rice away from West Ham, Salah/Mane away from Liverpool etc and the teams results will surely suffer at some point.

We are creating chances and not looking too horribly pourous so I sustain a portion of cautious optimism. What we really need to sort out is set pieces which has gone hugely downhill at both ends of the pitch since Davide Ancelotti left; I would suggest that Rafa bring in a set piece specialist which many of the top teams employ. Such small margins can be crucial and perhaps if we already had one we would still be above West Ham.

On the subject of Sigurdsson, whatever he may or may not have done, just how long do the police or DPP want to decide whether or not there is any case to answer?

Was anyone on here actually asked to produce any Covid evidence or was it just a case of the club going through the motions to make it appear they were actually doing something?

West Ham, got one off their keeper yesterday, moved forward, it broke down, they ended up with a throw-in near the halfway line, and Michael Keane was standing on the line of our 18 yard box.

I said before the game yesterday that I thought Peter Reid would have struggled to become the player he was, playing in front of Michael Keane, and Des Walker, would have never become the defender he became, if he had to pick up big bustling centre forwards, whilst Michael Keane stayed deep, meaning Walker, wouldn't have been allowed to play his natural game.

My scratched record is wearing thin now though Danny, and it wasn't helped yesterday, having to watch a football team that have wasted millions, to end up with such a threadbare squad, and still allegedly struggling with FFP.

There are many teams in the Premier League who are as capable as West Ham and it is a worry that at Goodison we surrendered so much territory so early in the game and only partly addressed it in the second half. If Everton had been playing one of the really top teams yesterday, we would have been out of the contest before it had properly begun.

I think many of us realised that the opportunity that was spurned at Old Trafford would come back to bite us, as we did what we so often do, failed to turn up after a battling performance in the previous game. If Everton fails to come out of the traps, firing on all cylinders on Saturday, it might prove to be another frustrating day at Goodison.

To me, Iwobi is the original enigma without variation. He is always silent and passive in games. He seems weak and, to me, and I regret having to say it, chicken. He reminds me of a poor-quality, non-achieving Barkley (who I see Burnley are now allegedly interested in).

I just wonder whether any of us can make an informed guess as to how much longer the disastrous spending under Moshiri is going to take until we can spend a bog-standard fee (these stupid days) of even £30M again?

"The next couple of games are very important because, after that, we have a run of playing the better teams in the league."

I think our problem will be against the lower teams, especially at home, because they won't give us space to play the counter-attacking football we want to play. We don't have the players to break down other teams around the 18-yard box. The better teams will give us that chance, like Man Utd did.

The plan seems to be that we are happy to conceded possesion/control of the ball in the knowledge that we can create chances on the counter attack. And to be fair it has worked pretty well. I read this morning that we are among the top 10 teams in Europe currently for creating chances. And we're not doing too badly in terms of chances leaked.

So even though it may look like we are being outplayed by teams who hog the ball and possession so long as we are creating better or more chances than them then I will be happy enough; especially when our strikers come back. I'm sure there will be ocassion when we get punished by one of the top teams but then that is true of most mid table teams. Leicester won the league by ceding posession and then counter attacking though the biggest fly in the ointment at the moment is the set pieces; we need to tighten up on that front pronto if we want any chance of top 6/7.

When the latter two come back I expect we'll win games like yesterday because (a) we'll finish our good chances and (b) WHU would have felt less confident about comitting men forward with those two on the pitch.

We just need better players, hopefully a couple will turn up in Jan - and maybe one or more of Gordon, Dobbin, Simms and Branthwaite can force their way into the reckoning.

My worry now is Richarlison is often mentioned as a target for a transfer and more often DCL is starting to get mentioned for a move. I cant see Everton letting them go and a lot of it is pundit gossip, but some times there is no smoke without a fire.

Yesterday was just another display showing what a really poor squad we have, that you cant afford any player starting to have a bad game, as we don't have anyone to replace them, except someone who will get a comment of, he has to be better than the player he is replacing, and to me if he is better he should have started.

Its easy being an armchair manager as you are never wrong, but I am sure Benitez never expected a certain player to be that poor when he was picked to play and stepped over that white line onto the pitch.

Yesterdays game even as poor as we played we still had the chances for a result, but at home where we failed last season we have to bring the crowd into the game and that was something that never happened.

We have to get our injured players back but at the same time we have to improve the Squad to compensate for injuries or suspensions. All teams have injuries but unfortunately ours occurred in critical positions where no matter who's fault it was , we didn't have adequate replacements.

Everton have done very poorly in the back up striker department for as long as I can remember.

Who was the last back up striker who was worth having in the squad? I want to say Naismith but was he a back up? I don't recall.

Either way, the amount of money and transfer fees wasted on the players who aren't able to contribute is quite astounding.

Sam #254, great stat. We certainly created chances yesterday. Nobody on the end of them to convert.

Bobby and others, the criticism of Pickford is ridiculous IMO. I've played a lot of games as an undersized keeper. Trust me, going into the air from a standing start against a physically larger player who's had a running start is dicey at best. JP could have punched? In which direction, assuming he could even choose a direction? He should have blindly kept the ball in play rather than surrender a corner? He's not 6'6" with long arms, so he's not gonna catch that ball, and the best he could do was tip it to safety. And he did, kept the ball out of his net, and that's his job. I was at Anfield when he should have tipped the ball out for a corner and didn't. He handled this play much better.

Brian H and others, I actually thought Godfrey had one of his best games as a CB yesterday. Positionally perfect most of the time, aggressive to the ball, some good header wins and a couple of blocked shots. Yes, he was Ogbonna's marker, but when a guy that much bigger than you has a free running start and jump to the ball, it's pretty tough to beat him in the air.

I thought Gray, just played in little snatches yesterday, but we still could have scored at least a couple, just from his direct approach play alone, if only we had players who had the pace or the desire to attack the ball, and maybe make some headlines for the right reasons.

That's about it. Yeah, Rondon is still lacking but could be functional if he knew what the wingers were going to do and Iwobi disturbs that. Perhaps with Gordon I'm willing to think he could get some plays right and that's all we need from him really.

We were playing for the late show is what the set up looked like to me. Decent enough keeping Benrahma off the ball and Antonio did not run riot so we were on plan. Not sure we would have stayed on top if we took one of our first half chances but I don't feel like we tried to set up in a certain way and failed. And the way they scored was not a clownshow, could've maybe avoided the corner but it happens.

Great to meet up with you, talk with Steve about our south Liverpool connections and meet Brian, who I think I've only had pointed out to me previously.

Apologies for drawing attention from the boisterous (but well behaved) West Ham fans, who zoomed in on me!! My 2nd set of new friends of the day. Man hugs and all at Lime Street!!

Also an earlier post, I agree with your brother about a well organised West Ham team, they found their players and very rarely played a stray pass, with Rice the centre of everything, we were certainly not at our best,so all in all I would put it down to Everton not their usual selves, obviously missing two players, with the two replacing them, being the weak links.

Hopefully we will rectify this against Watford, but will say again, Benitez has been left with his hands tied with past dealings, so needs to be given some wriggle room, until he can strengthen, and at the same time, try to weed out some of the weak links, he is pissing in the wind at the moment, Gordon starting against Watford is a must.

If need be, I will bring my boots and fill Rondons spot.

Have to say the meet up in the Crown was great, nice to put a face to everyone, great blokes the lot of you and really enjoyed the meet up.

Looking forward to meeting other posters on the next toffeeweb meet up.

P.s good friendly banter with the West Ham fans, proper fans who we all said were one of those teams you have a soft spot for.

On another note l thought Keane and Godfrey (esp 1st half) did very well against Antonio. Everything has been said about Rondon and Iwobi... surely its all about confidence? We really need the win now against Watford. If Richy isn't fit then Gordon has to start.

First was Moyes in his last season with us. We were playing well climbing up the table then suddenly we started playing badly. Lack of preparation etc was banded about then suddenly his move to Man Utd his the press and he left.
I hope that type of thought has not crossed Rafas mind because he should remember we also had the second longest manager until he went for so called greener pastures.

The 2nd thought was about Iwobi after he gave the ball away with his first 3 touches resulting in 3 attacks. Why have all the managers picked him. Then I realised Iwobi is playing to impress and not playing to win.

There is a massive difference playing to win like Allan, means staying with the opposition player until they are forced to quickly pass it or be tackled by Allan. You do not think you are being made to look slightly foolish or untalented by staying very close to a player when you are playing to win but you do if you feel that if you are playing to impress.
Iwobi never closes tightly on a player giving them a chance for a thoughtful pass into our half.
I bet you in every training game he passes creatively and shields the ball well knowing the defending EFC squad will not tackle him roughly.

Iwobi missed several shots. The first was a dreadful miss.Then later he hit a player and then skied it with his 2nd attempt.

3rd point Rondon was spent, was playing badly then when Gordon came on he suddenly came to life I think Rondon realised Rafa was thinking of bringing Dobbin on and that might be the end of Rondons season if Dobbin performed well just weeks before one of the main strikers was fit to resume play.

If Dobbins does not get a 10 minute chance when Rondon has had weeks to score and DCL etc are out then when will he get a chance?

Makes you want to puke!!

I think with Iwobi it is lack of confidence and belief in himself, he will never make an Allan tackle, but he certainly has something going forward that he could utilise, if he only had that bit more confidence of doing like a Gray and Townsend do, taking players on and getting the ball to one of our players, instead of being scared of having the ball at his feet.

Before the game you will easily locate me in the Chinese chippy queue side of the Trinity statue around 2pm then by the side of the church wall near the where the disabled supporters enter, wolfing my chips and pie down :-).

Anyway early Days, can arrange something when the Watford preview goes up, later in the week.

Hanging tough without Richarlison and DCL has been cute and all, but it's clear that we actually need our best players.

With Keane back to his old tricks of playing on Pickfords toes, Allan was back to his old tricks of falling between two stools. He simply cannot cover the ground keane presence demands of a mifiled player.

Moyes must have thought he was being transformed back in time watching Everton yesterday. Our performance was very Gingerish the only thing missing was a Marcus Bent or an Andy Johnson to chase get-after-that balls into the corner flag.

Yeah Iwobi and Rondon were passengers yesterday, but we were carrying more than two

Keane our best players says a lot. And as you say, he spent a lot of the match on our own penalty spot.

I thought Gray done well at times and offered the closest thing we had to a spark. In the second half, there were occasions I wish Townsend would have unleashed one of the those Burnley bullets as he cut inside. But he tended to opt for trying to find Rondon's head. Which was static due his level of mobility as well as his studs seemingly getting stuck in the Goodison turf that prevented him from jumping.

Last night late inthe evening I was sitting outside in my backyard with my long suffering wife who literally knows NOTHING about football. I was watching a squirrel running around in circles, completely confused and not knowing what to do next. I said "He reminds me of Iwobi ?"
She turned to me seriously and said "WHAT ON EARTH IS A "WOBI" ? She had no idea who Everton's very own Iwobi was.I find it hard to laugh when Everton lose, but what else could I do after that ? Unfortunately we had quite a few "WOBIS" on saturday

I share the disappointment and frustration of every Evertonian, but what I can't share is the verbal and written abuse that some players receive. There are only a couple who have escaped the wrath of some posters on this thread, from goalkeeper to what I still call outside left.

Alex Iwobi for example is crucified for his fresh air attempt, but I don't think there has been a player in the history of the game who hasn't made the same misjudgement. I have heard and read, fans relating to the transfer fees of players or their weekly rewards; I measure by skill and commitment – money doesn't feature in my appreciation or disappointment.

I'm addressing this post to you because you and Tony Abrahams appear to have played at a decent level, and if anyone can see my point, I trust that yourself and Tony can. If I'm wrong, I will be disappointed but unmoved in my views which I have expressed for many years.

I hope that you're on the mend. I think that some will have to ask their granddads who Peter Kavanagh was, because he made only six appearances for Everton.

I was on my way home from work by bus, when I spotted an Echo placard which read "Everton sign a winger". I jumped off the bus expecting to learn of an international signing... nothing could be further from the truth, but I know that I don't have to tell you that.

Although we pride ourselves on the School of Science logo, football really isn't as scientific as many "experts" these days make it out to be. There is and always has been a natural element to it, which keeps us coming back for more. Deny it or not, its the unpredictability that we love on matchday.

I agree about the abuse. I'm guilty of a few comments on Iwobi on here but hopefully I haven't come over too sinister and it's been meant light hearted. I might get ridiculed, but I'm probably one of the few who can see a player in him if he can stop confusing himself as much as he does us. Confidence & belief.

All the very best John. Next match?

You flatter me by the way. I won't compare myself to Tony, but I was fortunate enough to grace the pitches of Bellefield as a youngster only to have my dreams shattered.

I've said before, but my lasting memory was my Dad being mesmerised by the blue clothed pool table in the canteen upstairs. That's all he talked about!!! I don't even think he watched me.

I thought Moshiri was an accountant? I wouldn't let him look after my piggy bank.

Perhaps, as a club, we might consider the “Moneyball” approach to player recruitment adopted by (my nearest Premier League club) Brentford. They currently sit 2 points behind us, having spent close to nothing to assemble their squad, while making a few quid from player sales. Safe to say the Brentford approach would not have considered paying fees for the likes of Bolasie, Tosun, Iwobi, Delph etc.

The nearest we have come to this approach is when Moyes was in charge – Lukaku aside – the last time we had a decent team.

I rarely criticise individual players on an ongoing basis but I have criticised Iwobi for his repeated poor play, lack of awareness, and general ineptitude after being given chance after chance. Enough is enough.

He does not, of course, pick himself so the manager who preferred him and then refused to remedy his mistake for 79 minutes deserves, and has received, equal criticism.

You omitted the magnificent Sandro, King and Tarashaj – all players who cost us a small fortune in wages and barely played 20 games between them.

The two most recent additions once again have little practical expertise apart from being finance director of an Australian A League club and Usmanov's nephew. Ismailov is 26 for God's sake.

So once again Everton miss the chance to appoint some real financial acumen to a board that must be the weakest in the Premier League. Our struggles will continue until Moshiri wakes up smells the coffee and appoints some straight-talking hard-nosed bastards who understand the increasingly complex world of Premier League finances.

EXACTLY!

Just read your email and, as per usual, we agree on the game against West Ham in regards to general aspects of who won, could have won but didn't. We neglected to take some relatively easy opportunities and those misses alone probably affected the general tone of the game. I think we really missed our injured players but we have such a limited squad that their influence and absence is magnified.

I tend to have a different perspective than yourself on player criticism. While I do not think it is ever acceptable to use over-the-top personal criticism, I also think that if you are able to make it as a professional footballer you have to be prepared to accept whatever comes along. Once inside a football ground fans become different people. Tensions are high and emotions take over.

I have even surprised myself by my own comments due to frustration at what seems an idiotic pass or a really bad miss. As another 82-year-old fan I may have mellowed to some degree but in most ways I am still the same 14-year-old who in 1953 echoed vocal disdain when it was announced that Tony MacNamara was taking the place of Eddie Wainwright on the wing. Tony Mac was a fine young man who I used to see at St Mathews on a Sunday. He was unfairly barracked so often by huge crowds who were just as cruel as today's yahoos. Poor old Alex Iwobi and Random are today's goats.

I try to be objective, subjective or what people might consider as sane. BUT Things just come out, I still get annoyed and I still sulk for at least a few days when we lose. That can also end when I find something to laugh about, such as my "NON" football wife asking me what "A Wobi" is. she had heard me mentioning his name at least 93 times since the game ended.

I think you are a fine upstanding Evertonian, and more importantly a very fine person. You are undoubtedly correct in your approach. I am wrong. In fact I have used you as a role model when discussing Everton with my wife. She wonders why I cannot be like that. I envy you having a season ticket while I can only scream at the television along with my equally insane sons. After the West Ham game, I stormed into the kitchen to announce loudly "WE LOST". Do you know what my wife said, "I can't find the cat"!! .After losing to West Ham, she wanted me to look for the 'fucking' cat. Sorry that I had to use that word but no other word could adequately express my emotions.

Being an Evertonian means so much to me. I know that there are far more important things, although they do not include A Wobi or our cat. Wow!! That was a true confession and there is no better people to say it to than you yourself and a bunch of loonie Toffee Webbers. I really might try to change but not until after the Watford game.

Please God make Richarlison and Calvert Lewin better for the next game and I promise not to say mean things about Alex, Rondon and even a few others. And John, I still respect you as my elder. After all, I find it difficult to find elders as there just aren't many still around.

PS God, do you know where our cat is?

Macavity's a Mystery Cat: he's called the Hidden Paw—
For he's the master criminal who can defy the Law.
He's the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad's despair:
For when they reach the scene of crime—Macavity's not there!

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
He's broken every human law, he breaks the law of gravity.
His powers of levitation would make a fakir stare,
And when you reach the scene of crime—Macavity's not there!
You may seek him in the basement, you may look up in the air—
But I tell you once and once again, Macavity's not there!

Macavity's a ginger cat, he's very tall and thin;
You would know him if you saw him, for his eyes are sunken in.
His brow is deeply lined with thought, his head is highly domed;
His coat is dusty from neglect, his whiskers are uncombed.
He sways his head from side to side, with movements like a snake;
And when you think he's half asleep, he's always wide awake.

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
For he's a fiend in feline shape, a monster of depravity.
You may meet him in a by-street, you may see him in the square—
But when a crime's discovered, then Macavity's not there!

He's outwardly respectable. (They say he cheats at cards.)
And his footprints are not found in any file of Scotland Yard's.
And when the larder's looted, or the jewel-case is rifled,
Or when the milk is missing, or another Peke's been stifled,
Or the greenhouse glass is broken, and the trellis past repair—
Ay, there's the wonder of the thing! Macavity's not there!

And when the Foreign Office find a Treaty's gone astray,
Or the Admiralty lose some plans and drawings by the way,
There may be a scrap of paper in the hall or on the stair—
But it's useless to investigate—Macavity's not there!
And when the loss has been disclosed, the Secret Service say:
‘It must have been Macavity!'—but he's a mile away.
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs;
Or engaged in doing complicated long division sums.

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
There never was a Cat of such deceitfulness and suavity.
He always has an alibi, and one or two to spare:
At whatever time the deed took place—MACAVITY WASN'T THERE!
And they say that all the Cats whose wicked deeds are widely known
(I might mention Mungojerrie, I might mention Griddlebone)
Are nothing more than agents for the Cat who all the time
Just controls their operations: the Napoleon of Crime!

T S Eliot.

John, there's probably more excitement to be found looking for the Cat than was served up on Sunday against West Ham ! :-)

Have you found the cat? Maybe he / she also went off to console and will be back when we beat Watford.

Playing deep had the effect of also forcing Doucouré and Allan to defend on the edge of the area. Surrendering the midfield to West Ham for long periods in the first half, Everton were threatening on most occasions when they did push forward.

Another area which has been pointed out is Everton's poor set-pieces, both defending and attacking. Simply the coaching is not at the level it should be. The flick on headed goal from a corner, and the aimless crosses, with no-one available at the end of them, are non-events in most matches now.

As called out by a few, myself included, he was probably our best player on the day. But with him in the team, it can have an impact on how we play unless he's marshalled. Worrying that of the 4 centre-backs, he is the oldest and therefore theoretically the most experienced, who should be leading the line.

I won't repeat myself as I've done it to death since last season, but what you say about the impact it has on the midfield, whoever plays there. It's why for me, with what we have now, Mina and Godfrey when all fit. It's why I wanted a new centre-back.

I hear many on here suggesting Godfrey should partner Mina but for me he hasn't had a good game all season and it was his poor attempted clearance that conceded the corner, and he was marking Ogbonna who scored the goal, yet on T/W its all Michael Keane's fault.

For me, Mina and Keane is our best centre-back pairing until or unless we sign a top centre-back, I know Danny and one or two others have said that Mina pushes Keane further up the pitch. But surely the manager who is on the training ground everyday should be making sure we play a higher line if that's what he wants... but I am not sure that is what he wants.I would remind everyone that Leicester won the league with two very slow centre-backs.

The fact that West Ham had so much room for most of the first half is because our manager has his team sitting deep for the first 20 minutes; maybe he wants to drag teams onto us so we can hit them on the break. But so far at home this season Southampton, Burnley and West Ham have had more possession and territory in the first half than we have so go and question the manager as to why that is.

Rondon... why has this man got a blue shirt? Another Bernie Wright.

Our back four is still open to debate, especially the centre-back positions. Pickford is not the answer to our goalkeeping problem. Makes great saves but doesn't infuse confidence in the back four. Give our youngsters a chance.

As for the Goodison crowd and lack of voice and backing, give them something to cheer and get excited about. It's not the fans' job to raise the team's performance. It's up to the team to raise the fans' performance. Believe me, as an Evertonian for 64 years, there is no place better or thunderous than Goodison Park, given something to shout about.

I'd hate to play midfield with my central defender playing so deep; it would be very interesting to hear the thoughts of the other players on this, and who these central defenders like playing with the most. I actually feel sorry for Holgate; I thought our best defensive display this season was at Brighton, but he hasn't been seen since, except for that game at Loftus Road.

If Benitez is sending us out to start the game defending deep, I'd be very surprised, because of the space we are leaving between the lines, which is something that I don't think is acceptable at any level. A team with more attacking options than West Ham would have systematically torn us apart during that first 25 minutes on Sunday, because of that space in between our midfield and defenders.

I'm hearing very bad news about another one of our very key players being injured now, and if this is true, I think we might be in a bit of trouble. So maybe Benitez is jinxed, because it's not Alex Iwobi, who's probably going past four men in training right now. I've heard he feels right at home when the pressure is off, although the pressure sounds like it's going to be on right now.

I always read your posts as they are written by someone who has an insight into playing professionally is all about. Would you like to elaborate on which key player has picked up an injury, I suspect that with you saying it's a key player will probably mean either Gray, Doucouré, Allan or Townsend?

Benitez gave an update on injuries and said Richarlison is closer to playing than Calvert-Lewin, I read a post the other day where someone suggested it may be December before Calvert-Lewin is back – I hope that's not true.

Brian, I caveated myself above with the "with what we've got now" comment. I agree with you to a degree, but some players don't follow instruction – no matter what level or unless they're being told on the pitch. They often follow instinct.

We have 4 good central defenders. Godfrey (23) is still learning his trade, Mina is still relatively young, having just turned 27, so in a year or two should be hitting his peak. And Holgate at 24, still has some development to do, which he can do. Is it me or are we not yet convinced of his best position? Sweeper maybe?

Despite being sometimes harsh on Keane, I don't dislike him. He's a good defender. But as he turns 29 in January, I don't see him improving the flaws in his game. You can compensate for lack of pace with anticipation and reading the game. That seems to be something he is prone to lapses in, which makes him instinctively sit deeper. There is a good example not too far from home, but I won't mention the name of a certain Sky TV pundit. Although I do enjoy that clip of Thierry Henry making him look like he was jogging backwards as he rinsed him!!

Like I said, it's why I've been pushing against the general tide of opinion on wanting a new centre-back for some time now.

Brian, my son and his mate are at the Watford match Saturday. They're staying over so I'll point them to The Crown if you and the crew are going to be there after the match?

In this thread alone his default position v WHU according to some was on our penalty spot, the 6 yard box or standing on Pickford's toes.

Surprised that some didn't claim he was so deep he was sat in the Gwladys or Park End.

He would even have made players who last kicked a ball 30-40 years like Peter Reid and Des Walker poorer players apparently.

Some influence the lad has.

Commentary on the game is all about opinions. But at least try to make it real and not revert to hyperbolics.

Or should that read 'hyperbollocks'?

Man City abstained because its legal advisors believe it to be unlawful, and for obvious reasons, Newcastle voted against the plan, also believing that the proposed action was unlawful.

Given Paul's earlier post claiming that Everton FC is losing £2.5m per week, isn't Everton FC guilty of acting like a turkey voting for Christmas?

Temporary block of sponsorship deals

What's your take on Keane as a centre back Jay?

Given an improved turnover and the clearing out that's been done, maybe it isn't the case now?

I think with Keane being both the bigger, stronger but slower player, that he should have been the one picking up Antonio, but Michael won't move from the middle of that defence, because he knows once he does he exposes himself, so Godfrey was the one getting bullied and exposed by the end of Sunday's game.

Hyperbollocks, Why Jay? I tend to agree with Jerome, when he said that Michael Keane looked okay, but sometimes this can be at the expense of the team, and also think Godfrey will never make a good centre-half, whilst he's being asked to play with someone who refuses to play a higher line, and used Des Walker as an example.

Gutted about Doucouré, who said he's enjoying playing for Benitez, because after we lost him last season, I think the team really suffered.

I am only speaking for myself Andrew, but the uppermost thought in my mind watching on Sunday, was how could a club spend so much money, and go through so many managers, to end up with such a threadbare squad of players in key positions.

No use moaning though, because this usually only makes things ten times worse.

The one bright thing to come out of this weekend is that our former world class player James or hamez as he likes to be known was dire in his first outing for his new team who lost 3-0 his helping out in defence hasn't been unlocked yet.

Despite my emotional responses to Everton wins or losses I do like to look on the "ridiculous " side of my own reactions and to those of other Evertonians who tend to get a little more emotional than you do when Everton play badly. Basically it is so insane to allow football to become so important. I was really just pointing out that my responses have not changed much since I ventured inside Goodison those eons ago.

I also never considered you as prudish as I completely agree with you regarding the over-use of foul language. It is just that at certain times the odd expletive may be the best way to express one's ire.

In some ways, you are probably more serious about Everton than I am. I admire your ability to stay more rational than I do. I tend to exaggerate my own reactions because in some perverse way I actually enjoy my own responses to a loss that could have been a win.

It really is idiotic for football supporters to go blue in the face and rant and rave and make threats to never watch a game again. BUT.. that is who I am for a relatively short time after 90+ minutes of frustration. Then I can look back and smile at my own weakness of being a football supporter. Let's face it you have to be at least slightly daft to be an Everton supporter.

Still agree with you on at least 90% of your responses to football and Everton. I am not being the least bit facetious when I say that your road is far more sensible than mine. Perhaps it is just the 5% that sometimes makes me react as though I was back in the Boys Pen in the early '50s.

We are all serious about Everton. Every one of us.

How we express that may differ but none of us are more or less of an Evertonian than the other.

Different reactions and different views are just that. Keep posting and keep reacting in your own Everton way just as we all do.

You out o Sarurday John Senior?

I met a few after the game Sunday,Danny, Steve, Jim, Bill and Derek, top blokes and a good night in the Crown and now have knowledge of how to get to the Bramley pub, from Sandhills to boot.

Be nice to see some more faces so looking forward to the next ToffeeWeb meet up.

Hopefully will see some of you at the Watford game on Saturday,just do us a favour Danny, do,not be bringing Elton John,Michael Barrymore or half the Watford fan base on the train with you this time :-)

That he was variously positioned on the penalty spot-the 6-yard box-standing on Pickford's toes. Because...

IT. DIDN'T. HAPPEN.

It's a falsehood.

But for some, EVERYTHING awry with an Everton performance seemingly always defaults to Michael Keane's own (alleged) default position.

The problem on Sunday IMO was that we were lightweight in midfield. WHU was consistently stronger on the ball than us, winning 1st and 2nd balls time and again, breaking through that first critical line of defence.

Iwobi offered no protection. Andros Townsend also had a quiet game. Neither Coleman nor Digne ventured forward much as a result to occupy Der 'Ammers further upfield. This only improved after the interval, switching Iwobi's position with Gray.

Neither Keane nor the defence retreated into our own penalty as some claim to defend WHU attacks. They held a solid line across the edge of our penalty area which WHU failed to seriously penetrate. Only once off the top of my head did Bowen get in behind the Everton defence.

Our overall performance was poor, but even so we created far better opportunities inside their penalty - not taken - whilst they created virtually zero.

I also think your extreme hypotheticals on Peter Reid and Des Walker in reference to Michael Keane are an irrelevance. WTF has that got to do with the price of rice?

Keane was born in 1993, long after both Reid and Walker had hung up their boots. I could pluck an equally absurd hypothetical out of the air and say if Michael Keane had been born in Sweden 60 years earlier and played in the 1958 World Cup final in which the 17-year-old Pele scored two goals, Keane would have snuffed him out and Pele as a result disappeared into obscurity.

And if you don't think Allan has it in him to 'have a word' with ANY player as Reid would have done, you haven't been watching him very closely in a Blue shirt. He gets annoyed with himself if he does something wrong and he clearly bearates - but also encourages - those around him all the time.

Michael Keane, the defence, the midfield plays as it does without retribution from the touchline because that's what successive managers want him and the team to do.

It isn't. That's why I call it hyperbollocks.

Allan might be a little nark, but the pitch is too big for him, as I think it would have also been for Peter Reid, who was lucky because Kendall had his teams playing a much higher line, which enabled Ratcliffe to utilize his main asset, and enabled our midfield players to go and squeeze the opposition.

It ran along the lines of 'There are games when it suits us to play Ben at centre back, but there are games when we want a more physical presence there.'

As under Ancelotti Benitez's preferred centre back pairing has been Keane and Mina who do a job for him, keeping the defence secure which in turn enables the swift counter-attacking game we have seen more of this season.

Didn't Sam Hoare share the stat on TW just yesterday that Everton is in the Top Ten across all the major European Leagues this season for the number of attacking plays?

It's working. And that's best for the team, IMO.

I agree, Ben Godfrey cannot use his pace effectively from centre back as well as he can when playing at full-back.

This season we haven't seen evidence of his explosive pace for reasons he himself spoke of in his post WHU match interview: Covid.

But nor did we see evidence of that last season when he played centre back. He only utlised his pace from full-back. And when he did play centre back last season, his performance levels dropped. His positioning and strength against opposing forwards left a bit to be desired. Even this season he and Holgate were totally bossed at QPR by the Championship journeyman Charlie Austin.

But - hey! Let's put another player's shortcomings all on Michael Keane, eh?

Depends how you look at it. I always respect your views, so I don't know why you've come out swinging. But we're all here to debate. On the Keane / defensive line point, mine is if you sit deep for too long, you will inevitably tempt fate and invite trouble.

I'll agree with you that West Ham had more control, but you said it yourself that our defence held a solid line along the edge of our own penalty box. That will cause the midfeild to sit deeper and in turn give the middle of the park to the opposition midfield. The most important part of the pitch, where games are won and lost. And then isolate our striker, however immobile he is (different discussion). We conceded space in the most crucial area of the pitch by sitting deep and holding a thin blue line on the edge of our own box as you rightfully say.

The penalty spot & Pickford's toes references are just colourful language to stress this, not meant literally over 90 minutes by me or Darren, who I believe coined the other one.

As a unit (key point - as a unit), get higher up the pitch. To use a cliched phrase, attack is the best form of defence. To do that, you need to be further away from your own penalty box and closer to the opposition's. Not science I know, just my humble opinion.

It's no personal dig at Keane, it's just opinion. I'll be honest, I have never really rated him too much. He's a good honest player and decent defender. But that's about it. I think Burnley saw us off for £30M to be honest, but they're not the only ones who've done that to us over the past few years. Had he not played well for Sean Dyche for a few seasons and we'd signed him direct from United, many would be pointing at another United reject / cast off as many have regarding other players over the years.

And in Maguire, I'd say United bought an even more expensive version for a lot more money. Which is ironic.

I don't anticipate the same turnout or liveliness from Watford, so we should be good.

"Standing on the goalie's toes" does not actually mean he had his back studs embeded into the front of Pickford's boot. It means he was defending too deep... and for removal of any doubt, when you hear people say the pitch was too big, it doesn't mean somebody broke in the night before and stretched it... it's footyspeak.

If you hear somebody call a player a goal-hanger, they are not accusing him of swinging from the crossbar... and trust me, when somebody shouts "Get right up his arse" they don't actually mean... You shouldn't really have to explain these things on a footy website.

Keane was defending too deep; that's just the way it was. He did not have somebody easing him 3-4 yards up like he did at OT so he played where he is most comfortable. Did he have a bad game? No, he didn't... but, as is often the case, his positioning made life an awful lot harder for the players in front of him.

Just about everyone who has watched Everton "live" with the full panoramic view during the past 3-4 years will have no doubt whatsoever that Keane is very wary of being exposed to pace. It could be argued that he is simply being sensible due to the fact that, even at full tilt, he looks like he is pulling caravans (another football metaphor).

He even looks good at times, but he makes the job so much harder than it needs to be for those in front of him. Allan often struggles badly with a deep-lying back four.

As for Keane not trusting Godfrey or Holgate, I am pretty sure it's the other way around. These two have enough confidence in their pace to recover and the last thing any centre-half needs is a reluctant partner when he wants to push the team up the pitch.

I remember Silva wanting to play a higher line, but this became impossible once he lost Zouma, and then it wasn't long before he'd had lost his job.

I actually said that I thought Keane was our best player on Sunday, but I don't think the same player is good enough to play in a really good side, which is what I'm desperate for Everton to become.

It comes down to personal opinions, obviously; with my own being that Michael Keane hasn't got enough ability to play for a top team. But Godfrey has got the scope to possibly play at the highest level – but only if he is allowed to develop in a team playing to his obvious strengths, which is definitely not happening right now. (It's why I used Des Walker as an example because Ben Godfrey reminds me of him.)

I don't listen to Benitez much, Jay, because I think most managers just use a lot of lip-service, an example being pairing Holgate and Godfrey, against the physical Charlie Austin, when it was obvious Ben was still struggling with his recovery from Covid, although it was probably a competition he is glad we are out of right now.

It's not about bashing the player, it's what you say. It's whether he's good enough for where we want us to be. He isn't. He's not alone in that sense.

Godfrey is incredibly young for a centre-back and will develop. A very different style to Stones, but I hope we firstly show him the patience we didn't with Stones when he has a young player off period, and secondly, we keep hold of him.

We sat deep on Sunday as we had to. It's tactical. We played 2 up top which meant that we surrendered the midfield to West Ham before a ball was kicked.

It won't be the last time we sit deep and break quickly this season. People have commented on how quiet the crowd was. Being penned into your own half for the first 20 mins doesn't get fans on the edge of their seats.

Ancelotti would have been slaughtered for playing like that. Instead, Iwobi and Rondon have shouldered the blame. I haven't seen a critical comment about our manager's selection or tactics. After conceding did anything change to try and turn the game? Young striker left on the bench!

Sure you can have an opinion on Pickford's role in the goal but the bottom line he still produced two great saves, has been excellent for 12 months and is a top keeper.

Keane lacks pace on the turn, we all know it. Doesn't stop him being a reguarly dependable player for us. As usual we missed Mina and the stats don't lie. When he plays – and this is over 100+ games – we perform significantly better.

The first problem was Iwobi, who quite clearly is not up to it. We were shafted by Arsenal clear and simple.

Secondly, and I have a little but not a lot more sympathy, is Rondon. We can't play the fitness card any longer – it's quite clear he's slow and cumbersome. His total contribution was desperately trying to flick long balls on and he didn't even make a great job of that.

He can't make runs behind, he can't make runs down the channel, and he can't hold the ball up and bring others into play. The comparison with Antonio playing the same role was so stark it was embarrassing.

I've never been one to rush young players in just because they are untested and therefore present the easy answer but surely Gordon and Dobbin couldn't do any worse?

Wow, a 1-0 defeat to a squad with a lot more depth than ours. Not exactly a thrashing, is it? West Ham are a very good side and have strength in depth. They will beat better teams than us this season.

Thought our defence was pretty solid and some of the attacking balls into the box were excellent. Yes, changes should have been made earlier in the game but poor finishing by experienced players can only be blamed on those players.

I have seen a lot worse displays over the last few seasons. It was not a bad performance from our small group of players.

With Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison, we would have stuffed West Ham. Or if players had tucked away the easy pickings.

Slightly off topic, but in your younger days at Forest, was that the era when Des Walker was still there? I remember you saying you played with Crosby. I guess Walker was a few years older?

'Commentary on the game is all about opinions. But at least try to make it real and not revert to hyperbolics.'

By acknowledging your (and others') use of 'colourful language' to describe Michael Keane, you admit you (and others) resorted to hyperbolics.

The lad was called as MotM by some (including yourself, Danny) but in doing so is damned with faint praise along the lines of 'it's pretty damning if Michael Keane is the MotM'. (Personally, I thought Seamus was our standout performer against West Ham.)

The discussion on playing a higher defensive line is also a hypothetical one as – again – successive managers have chosen to set up with a deeper-sitting defence, best utilising the current playing resources we have instead of employing a system ill-suited to the squad, with players we don't have as you propose, again. And again. And again. Ad nauseum.

As I already pointed out, even with the injuries, Benitez has made us a much more potent counter-attacking team as a result of this.

What are the alternatives? In his first season, Holgate and Mina was Carlo's preferred centre-back pairing, until injuries ruled them out. Holgate looked to be blossoming, won Player of the Year awards, and some called for him to be made captain.

However, even though Carlo tried to get Holgate back into the team as early as possible in his 2nd season, Mason by his own recent admission, recognized he got nowhere near the standards he sets for himself last season.

Godfrey has yet to prove himself and cement a position at centre-back, IMO, either last season or this.

Since Holgate and Mina got injured towards the end of Ancelotti's first season, Michael Keane has been an ever-present, been given an extended contract and Benitez recently described him as a 'key player' for the team.

For me, he is our best out-and-out defender at centre-back, as well as being the best ball-playing centre-back at the club, capable of stepping out from the back and playing very astute and well-executed short and long passes.

The notion you and others attempt to propagate, Danny, that playing Michael Keane (and only Michael Keane, no other player) impacts totally and negatively on every aspect of our play is – I repeat – hyperbolic nonsense, IMO.

Godfrey has the makings of becoming one of the best centre-halves of the modern game, but we cannot keep playing him at right-back a couple of games, then at left-back, then at centre-half with different centre-backs each game.

We destroyed Colin Todd by playing him at right-back instead of centre-half; we have to learn from that and play Godfrey in the centre of defence. Fair enough, Alan Harper was a different breed and could play anywhere; however, if we can keep Godfrey as a centre-half, he will make it big time and be one hell of a player.

Speaking of Forest, I had a mate who was a Forest fan. Everton I think we're away to Southampton so we decided to go a Forest game. As fans were leaving, I got my mate to stay, so I could get the Everton score from the scoreboard.

You guessed it: Des Walker scored and my mate got to see it, unlike others who had left the ground.

I think the lack of mobility of Rondon is a major problem. As Paisley always said, good teams defend from the front and neither Rondon nor Iwobi offer anything in that area.

I also think asking Allan and Doucouré to play against a 3-man midfield asks far too much when two forwards are offering no cover whatsoever. We look a far better side when Doucouré picks the ball up and runs at defenders, but too often in this system, he is defending deep in his own half.

Maybe Benitez doesn't rate our other midfield players so doesn't play with 3 in midfield; he certainly hasn't given Davies much game time which is a concern as Tom is the only fit midfield player to replace Doucouré on Saturday.

I just hope that Richarlison is fit for Saturday. I think he and Gray and (when fit) Calvert-Lewin will make a very good front 3. Also, Richarlison we know will track back and deny the space that West Ham found in midfield.

I couldn't defend deep though because you had to hold the line, and sweep your centre-half, in case they missed anything that might come in from the opposite side, and also because he was always pushing us out, knowing he had the pace to deal with most situations.

You had some great experiences by the sound of it. Des Walker had a funny sort of up-and-down career but earlier on, he was tremendous. It seemed as if he just lost his confidence a bit after that Holland game. Although he had a renaissance as part of the really good Sheffield Wed team with the other England veterans, Woods and Waddle.

Great memories, Kieran, but most of them are buried very deep, although ToffeeWeb does tend to bring a few to the fore sometimes. 👍

A long-standing weakness was being squared up and being zipped by on either side. Do you see much of that these days? Both Ancelotti and Benitez are on record as saying they worked on the player's 'starting position' in different game situations. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that, contrary to some people's belief, Keane has not plateaued and is still improving his skill set?

Another is that he is slow paced. Sure about that? I recall the home game vs Wolves last season. The Speed Train that is Adama Traore had a 4-5 yard start on Michael Keane in one situation, and Michael gobbled him up, knocked him off the ball and started an Everton counter-attack.

Implying he doesn't 'relish the fight' Tony? Cheap shot. The extremely serious foot injury he suffered in his first season and hid from everyone, choosing to play through the pain.

Recovering from a fractured skull – and immediately on his return, no hesitation in getting his head on every ball. Courage and bravery in adversity is not something you can ever accuse Keane of not having.

And I repeat, name me a better ball-playing centre back on our books right now than Michael Keane.

He is an asset, not a liability, as too many IMO wish to paint him.

He's also a fully committed player, willing to give his all within the serious constraints of his lack of pace. This means he MUST defend deep, and this means that he gets more opportunities than most defenders to spray long passes around the pitch. He's good at this but then he bloody well should be given how deep he has to play.

And then there's the problem his lack of pace presents to a midfield and fellow defenders who might otherwise line up ten metres higher up the pitch to the benefit of our attacking prowess.

That said, I admire his whole-heartedness and skill. His lack of pace is insuperable.

Talking about pace I'd like to remind folks of what DCL said earlier in the year when the media asked him who in the squad was quickest. He said Godfrey and Branthwaite always left him, DCL - and no slouch, behind in a sprint. If the latter soon fills out like Godfrey's still doing we might just see a pairing where opponents have to rely on more than pace to unnerve us, unlike now.

Godfrey also played in the defeat and shits gold bricks! Despite being out muscled and being unable to pass water.

Our alleged 2nd fastest player struggled playing in a mid table championship team last year.

Meanwhile the ageing slow defensive pairing of Bonucci and Chielini hobble off with yet another trophy. Imagine what they could have won if they where quick!

I think Mina, is better with the ball than Keane, but Michael plays the longer pass much better, but that's not even the point, my point is that Everton are easy to play against when the big strong centre back, sits very deep.

I think we can all acknowledge that we carried two passengers on Sunday, and Michael Keane had a decent game, but I can't acknowledge that Keane is an asset, because I've never looked at the team-sheet when he's missing, and thought we are going to miss Michael Keane today.

It's at times like this that I wonder if introducing a sin-bin might be something that football might benefit from?

'Someone who relishes the fight and makes everyone else around him aware of their job.'

It has two different clauses which are not dependent on each other. I clearly addressed the first clause and made no observation on the second.

Your point being..?

It is amusing to read ALL posts and realise that everybody has there own perspective on a game. In that poor West Ham game nobody really deserved to be "Man of the Match".But NOBODY is "stupid" for picking any Everton player... other than those who may have decided to choose one of those highlighted in the headline for this article.

It is amazing to realise that up to now 400 Toffee Webbers,including me, actually think that they have something sensible to offer in regards to sensible advice.

Just to finish on a non Everton ridiculous FACT, Do you know that you can't breathe through your nose if you stick your tongue out.

Bet you have just tried to do it !!!

A sin-bin could be a solution to needlessly sending players off for relatively minor offences or accidental clashes which cause injury.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a third card introduced.

A yellow card for non-violent infractions

An orange card for serious foul play but undeserving of a red

A red card for serious foul play or for collecting three yellows or for getting a yellow and an orange in the same game.

If a full back catches the eye by imposing his will on his opposite number and forcing him back all game going past him repeatedly, it would be very easy to say he has played well. especially if he is putting balls in for strikers to attack But if the opposition deal with his crosses and exploit the space he has left behind him a couple of times and score two for a 2-0 victory. Then he should be criticised. The criticism is every bit as valid as the praise. He may have carried his teams biggest threat but his marauding style of play has ultimately cost his team the game.

Very few players bring only qualities to the team. Most have weaknesses that can be exposed too. The problem with Keane is every man and his dog knows his weakness and if I'm a coach playing against him I know that by outnumbering Evertons midfiled I can expose the space between their lines. we have all seen it happen time and time again.

Calling out and recognising Keane's shortcomings as Tony A has, may seem "Hyperbolics" to those who only want to hear praise for him, or who don't quite understand the point he is making, but for me, Tony is simply demonstrating an ability to see the bigger picture. An understanding of the effect Keanes presence has on our formation...Even when he plays well as an individual

We've mainly been discussing the merits and shortcomings of a player like we do on most players.

We have our favourites of course, and can all be guilty of being blinkered and defending them to the hilt. Then sometimes we can be harsh on others. I tend to look closely at centre backs as that is where I eventually settled and played.

Also, just as we do with the team in general, we can judge a player on the basis of each match. Then we can have an opinion on the bigger picture and the basis of an entire season or what we've seen over a number of seasons.

Ultimately, it's opinion though.

My biggest worry after our injuries, is the gap between the defence and the midfield, because being compact, is crucial, and even average players can exploit you if they are given to much space.

Absolutely spot on if pace was the main requirement for being a CB as you say how come the slowest pair of CBs in Bonucci and Chielini win the European Nations cup playing in a very attack minded Italian side. Listening to so called experts if they were in charge against a slow CB that team would be easily exposed and not only did Italy have 1 slow CB they had 2.

How come Mancini had Italy playing high line attacking football with these 2 at the back. Maybe our managers tactics need exposing rather than the perceived lack of pace by one of our CBs. I would also add the Leicester pairing of Huth and Morgan won the Premier league with 2 slow CBs.

Sam, the big difference (in my opinion as always), is that Godfrey is a young centre back. He will develop and get better. Keane, approaching 29 is what he is. I am obviously no predictive prophet or expert, but at that age, if he hasn't ironed out the basic flaws in his game (coping with lack of pace through reading the game and concentration), I don't think he will now. Again, this is not talking about Sunday, any one game or a phase of play scenario in a single game. This is an assessment and opinion over time.

Look, to reiterate what I and those questioning him have said on this very thread, he is a good defender and was probably our best player on Sunday. But he has his faults like any player. That doesn't mean we can't call them out as we see it, just as we do with others.

Very few players are totally perfect. Johann Cruyff, Maradona and maybe Beckenbauer in my life.

And Kevin Sheedy obviously.

It isn't always about raw pace. Read the game, anticipate and be there if you don't have the pace to recover in a Kevin Ratcliffe chasing Ian Rush kind of way.

Darren make a great point above. Most of our 1st choice 11 have great attributes but also glaring deficiencies.

A manager has to play a system that suits the players available. Ancelotti and Benitez are playing a deep counter attacking game as we don't have the players to play any other way. He won't be changing the system to develop Godfrey.

Good point about the tactics Brian, and those two slow Italian defenders playing a higher line. I'd say it's because they are both, what I'd call, proper out and out defenders, meaning their natural aggression makes it much easier for them to play on the front foot?

Again, that word; anticipation. If the keeper can anticipate and read the game, he effectively becomes a sweeper.

I would love to see Everton play like this, but I'm equally happy watching us defend deep, and hit teams with a fast counter-attack.

Either tactic will do for me, because it's only when we don't defend as a collective unit, that we become very easy to play against imo, especially in the biggest area of the pitch, which looked like it was the case to me against West Ham the other day.

Group hug everybody?

The comic positioning of some (well...one) as being a superior, better informed fan with a greater understanding of the game than those who offer an alternative view to their own. That 'their view' is the only legitimate view.

It isn't.

The hyperbole about Michael Keane in this thread was pointed out and admitted to by the perpetrators. An exchange on a football issue resulted.

It is MONTHS - maybe a full year - since I last debated Michael Keane on TW. A fun to and fro with Dave Abrahams in which we concluded we should watch a game at Goodison together with particular attention on Keane. I likened it to being akin to the Muppet hecklers Statler and Waldorf, with Tony Abrahams playing the referee as Fozzy the Bear.

Too many IMO have a predisposed opinion about Michael Keane that he, and he alone, dictates every aspect of our set-up and game play. He doesn't.

We do NOT defend the entire game on the edge of our own penalty area as some wish to claim. Depending on the game situation and where the ball and play is, we also defend on the half way line or an imaginary line the width of the park from the edge of the centre circle.

Guess what? When the opposition is in possession, they attack the Everton goal. Whilst you want to defend as high up the pitch as possible, it is still a natural movement to retreat to and defend your penalty area at its perimetre at such moments.

Everton does this very well.

Some wish to pass off that a high defensive line with speedy centre backs is a superior and preferred way to play, rather than a deeper defensive live with (alleged) static defenders.

It isn't. It is A way to play. It is not the ONLY way to play.

The system is largely determined by the players available. And right now Rafa Benitez considers the most effective centre back partnership for Everton are the 'two static lighthouses with the turning circle of an oil tanker'. (Yes, that's more hyperbole attributed to Michael Keane and Yerry Mina by the self-anointed superior, more knowledgeable fan).

They are part of a deliberate system now employed which frequently sees Everton with around only 30-40% possession, but with a rapier-like thrust on the counter attack which has delivered memorable goals and results this season, even in adversity, hampered as we are by injuries.

The notion put forward by some that on the one hand Michael Keane is not a leader, an organizer, whilst simultaneously claiming that his selection dictates how the entire back four plays - indeed, the whole team - to the detriment of our play is a contradictory one, IMO.

If his negative impact on every apsect of Everton's play is truly the case, then how come the much wiser and more seasoned professionals than anyone on TW that train and prepare the squad haven't noted this, dropped him from the team and eradicated such bad practice in the remaining players to the betterment of our performances?

Could it rather be the case Michael Keane and the team are playing exactly as required by the management?

There is a reason that Rafa Benitez has given Michael Keane more game time than any other player.

He's good.

I'm sure those who have criticised certain aspect of Keane's play will have had their opinion turned on its head after reading such a powerful compilation of strawman arguments

It s like witnessing a kid trying to convince his chuckling mates that he REALLY does understand the argument whilst all the time making it abundantly clear that he doesn't.

If you going to employ philosophical debating terminology, do try and use them correctly.

No need to bone up on ad hominem. You've got that one down pat.

If we take moral superiority, straw man and ad hominem out of the Dazzler playbook we ain't got a lot.

Although for entertainments sake I don't think we should.

But I think he's been the best we could have hoped for him to be -- an honest, courageous, capable servant of the club who has never given one ounce less than his best and has always been a credit to the badge.

If memory serves, Keane has played for seven managers at Everton -- five permanent, two interim -- and they have all picked him to start in almost every game he was available. (I believe Fat Sam benched him for his first few games on the job, but he never did it thereafter.)

Either all our managers are idiots, or Keane's a better player than some of you make out.

"Either all our managers are idiots," that's a case that also has certain merits. lol

But when he asked his team to open up, we got footballed to death by some very average teams, who all took advantage of our very narrow midfield, and a hole that rarely got plugged, and which was often caused, by our retreating back four imo.

This is the reason why I think playing compact is the most important thing, especially now we have lost the energy of Doucouré.

Keane is a good example of that. I've seen Gomes and Sigurdsson in that light too in the past.

I agree with those who say we could do with a more mobile, agile player at centre-back. But we've certainly seen some very good performances from him and he's won a few England caps off the back of it.

If we had a better midfield and attack, it would gloss over his shortcomings, too.

Plenty of big clubs go through spells with centre-backs as 'bad' as Keane (eg, Lovren, Smalling etc) – it's just that opposition teams don't dare attack them like they do us, for fear of getting punished.

So we either need better chemistry in defence and midfield, or a superior attack.

You like Keane and think he has done his best for the club. I don't doubt that for a minute; I just don't think his best is good enough.

It is also up to the manager to pick the players based on the opposition's style and tactics. There is no – and I repeat – no player that does not make a mistake but most times nothing happens when they do; players are often criticized when their mistakes lead to a disaster, but I believe a manager is capable of knowing any player's weakness and helping him to overcome them.

We are not in a position to buy top-class individuals, so we have to rely on who we have.

Although we don't have good chemistry in defence, we take the pressure off that by improving the attack.

Unfortunately without Doucouré, Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin, we're going to really struggle and Keane will be exposed (and I expect Allan and the midfield will be in for some stick too).

My hope is that Benitez is able to get performances out of Gomes, Davies, Gordon and even cameos from Dobbin, Simms and Onyango which stand us in good stead longer term.

We're not going to win anything this season so we might as well build for next.

I just can't get over the fact your lad played alongside Des Walker. He's always modest about his playing days but, if he was good enough to be picked alongside Des Walker at any level, he must have been bloody good. It's just a tough, tough career to get the breaks.

To your point: Demarai Gray had a couple of wicked balls across the box and yet he got below-average reviews. If Calvert-Lewin or anyone bar Iwobi and Rondon had been in the box, we'd be talking about two more assists and of the Match.

As Tony Cottee would say after scoring two consolation goals in a 6-2 loss: “He did his job.”

Quite what Keane is being blamed for escapes me. Match goers who regularly get a panoramic view of the effect Keane's presence has on the team in general and our midfield in particular were making observations… commenting on what they have seen with their own eyes. I saw no blame.

If a certain poster who clearly, clearly didn't understand their point hadn't charged in "swinging " (as somebody accurately described it), screaming "hyperbollocks", the performances of others would eventually have been discussed. Not now. The whole thread has been turned and Keane is now the one under scrutiny. Yet I still see only observations. No blame.

Nobody says Keane's presence "alone" dictates our set-up or game-play. That's just a foolish attempt by one poster to create an argument he thinks he can win.

What I'm still scratching my head about is how or why the names of Cheilini and Bonoucci were brought into the debate as some sort of defence of Keane?

These two are serial winners. They can both organise the defence. They would both eat nice guy Keane for breakfast. They both retain a lateral movement Keane didn't possess in the first place. They have both long since recognised that you can venture as far forward as you want once you have got your full-backs acting as insurance policies. They are natural-born defenders who smell danger before Keane even sees it... Oh and one more thing. They may be pushing a combined age of 80, but both would still comfortably burn Keane over 25 yards.

Let's not bring world class defenders into a debate about a semi-decent centre-back who can be good when the game is played to suit, or poor when it isn't

Have you thought about moving on from infants two and sending people “to Coventry” and instead of referring to “a poster”, just saying his name: Jay? It's called 'maturity', old timer.

His best is certainly not good enough for a club with genuine ambitions of Top 4 and silverware. But for this club, as we are now, it's plenty good enough, and he's consistent in bringing it to every game. That said, I fully expect that Mina and Godfrey will be the starters at the position next season.

Tony #344, I want your autograph the next time I see you!

To be fair, there's two of them at it when it comes to referring to “a poster” without actually mentioning their name.

Kieran, I set out to become a professional footballer, did okay, but never pushed on enough; if I was looking at things honestly, I don't think I failed because of a lack of talent or natural ability, so in this sense, I failed miserably mate.

Making the grade would have been brilliant, but if life is for living and enjoying yourself, then I genuinely don't think I've missed anything, except scoring the winner in the FA Cup Final for Everton, obviously. Although, if Michael Keane, was to do that for Everton, I'd definitely celebrate his goal a lot more than my imaginary one!🙏

I know you didn't like the comparisons, but your "smell danger" did resonate. It goes back to anticipation and reading the game.

Can we get decent odds on the Michael Keane FA Cup Final winning goal in May, Tony?

I don't get the chance to read posts or contribute much anymore but I had time this morning and think your argument on managers preferring Keane is a bit of a fallacy. Many of them have tried to replace and been unhappy with Keane at times however the issue is that others have failed to cement their place. Keane was also suited to the tactics employed under Koeman, Allardyce, Ancelotti and Benitez – most of whom have played with a deep defensive line.

Last season, Mina was actually our most important defender in terms of the goals conceded despite the generous praise Michael received.

The problem we have, IMO, is that Mina is best on the right side, is injury prone and seems always late back from international duty so hasn't really ever been an ever-present. I also don't feel he is a perfect fit for Holgate or Godfrey because he can get rattled and doesn't have Keane's composure. Michael also can play on the left which suits Mina and makes him a better fit with Holgate than the Colombian.

Personally, I haven't given up hope on Mason and feel his form under first Silva and then pre-lockdown Ancelotti (when we still played like a Silva team with Carlo's greater tactical nous) was the best I've seen from any of our centre backs. It was no surprise to me that Holgate has struggled under Ancelotti given his stature and how the team was set up. However, Benitez is taking a similar approach which may not see Mason to his best.

Godfrey is still learning his trade and needs an experienced head beside him and Keane again is the best natural fit. Personally, I feel it is no surprise that Keane is the natural go-to man more by default than design as we have a lot of uncomplimentary yet decent centre-halves who all have greater attributes than Michael but possibly more questions. Individuals rather than any partnership.

England only have one out-and-out defender in Maguire in their squad yet Southgate has no faith in Keane to fulfill that void such are his limitations.

During the summer, I controversially suggested that we should have cashed in on Dominic in a Coutinho-esque approach to squad transformation. Umtiti was the defender I really wanted because he would be a perfect foil for any of the other four centre-halves and has leadership, power, pace, aggression and experience and looks ideal for the Premier League. He would also have given Godfrey the chance to develop as a full back for the next season or two and would have also allowed us the flexibility to play with a three had we had a Doucouré type injury. This signing would, IMO, arguably have seen Keane move from being arguably our most to least important defender but Michael would still have had a role when we needed to defend a lead.

Umtiti-Keane (Distin/Jagielka)
Umtiti-Holgate (Vidic/Ferdinand)
Umtiti-Godfrey (Adams/Keown)
Umtiti-Mina (Keane-Mina)

Hopefully I'm gonna cry it in, but for us to win the cup, then now has got to be the time - that all our injuries have come at once.🤞

I think you sum up the Michael Keane issue very well. He no doubt has his limitations but, unless we can buy better, him and Mina are our best pairing.

I think with football fans we all have players who we praise and defend more than others and there are some, no matter what, we just can't take to them. It's why football is so interesting, so many varying opinions.

I go back to when we sold Bobby Collins to Leeds and replaced him with Dennis Stevens from Bolton. For me, Bobby was a class act: he could pass and dribble and, despite only being 5ft 4ins, was a tough-tackling midfielder (or wing-half as they were called then). But, despite being a solid workhorse, for me, Stevens wasn't in the same class as Bobby, although many of my mates liked him and he did a job for the team.

You think Keane brings consistent good displays in his performances?

I'm not having that. His mistakes are often only highlighted when they are the cause of a goal against us, but the mistakes are there in every game he plays – whether they cause a goal against us or not. But he is here for the foreseeable future and I hope he helps us to provide enough wins to keep us happy until better players arrive.

Yes, Tony wasn't a bad player... in fact, I'd go as far as to say he was nearly as good as me. Unfortunately for me, like Yossar Hughes, my paper round kept me back!!

"Match goers who regularly get a panoramic view of the effect Keane's presence has on the team in general and our midfield in particular were making observations… commenting on what they have seen with their own eyes."

That seems to suggest (maybe I misread your intention?) that regular match-goers' views are more reliable than those who don't attend regularly ("panoramic view", "seen with their own eyes"). Is that what you're saying?

If so, does that mean that Blues who regularly attend our away games have more reliable views on those games than those who don't attend away games ("panoramic view", "seen with their own eyes")?

I'm not clear on what you're saying or implying.

I suppose you get a better birds eye view when watching on the screen, but I see the movement and the shapes better when I'm at the match. But in my opinion, neither view is more authoritative. Darren is just pointing out that just about all those who have commented on the subject of Keane were actually calling him out for having a decent game but then discussing the limitations of the player in general - and certainly no blame for Sunday.

Caveat. I wouldn't call myself the best at analysing Everton either way in the way I can when I watch other football matches between other teams.

I was brought up at No 32 Beversbrook Road in Norris Green, in the days it was trees, garden fences and a swing on the lamposts... used to be lovely. Mum and dad married in St Teresa's and little me got doused in the holy water there as well.

It was quite a hike for me little legs to Clubmoor... wasn't there a big library there?
Then we got shifted around by the Corpy...

"But in my opinion, neither view is more authoritative."

My "view" exactly!

There was a moment against West Ham when Godfrey hammered a ball out of the park with a look that said everything, eyes and head turned away in mortification. Rafa has the job of building not just a team but players' own self-belief. Too many hopeful punts with the cheque book, methinks... but if he can make them perform...?

Just realized it was No 20... senile dementia setting in... or the drink.

Coming from Greaty, I think I was always more of a townie by nature, and always used to jump on the 14 bus, going right through Clubmoor, to take me to the Albion House, which might trigger a few more trips down memory lane, now that you're so far away from home.🙏

Broadway still has a great library, Christine, but it's a long time since I took any books back for my father, on the way to picking up his Echo, or putting his bet on! And I didn't know that Clubmoor used to have a picture house but, as for the lampposts, they were my first ever introduction to a game of floodlight football, and it wasn't easy trying to hit the target with a flyaway!

Those kids definitely don't know they're born nowadays, unfortunately, because I couldn't imagine my childhood without the streets.

As you've got older, your imagination as grown and grown, in fact you could be compared with Walter bleedin' Mitty!

You went for my Echo every night? – the paper lad delivered it!!! In fact, the paper lad was your brother Michael.

I took my own books back to the library. And you were such a little jinx, I wouldn't let you put my worst enemies' bets on!!

What a hardware shop! I came out with things I never knew I wanted...

You have just brought back loads of memories with your mentioning of the pitches at Scargreen Avenue, and playing for St Teresa's. I used to play there for my junior school which was Wellesbourne, then moved on to Stonebridge Lane when I got older.

We had some really competitive house matches at Stonebridge as Ken Mulhearn who played in goal for Man City and Tommy Wright who played for Everton were involved in those games.

I used to knock around with a lad who lived about 10 doors away from St Teresa's school. His name was Lenny Durr, he was the brother of Frankie Durr, the jockey. Oh happy times.

I couldn't find Michael Keane to score in the FA Cup Final in May, but got Everton to win it at 25/1. Got to be worth a punt? As well as the blind hope.

Talk of bus routes made me nostalgic too. Forgive the memory, but the No 14 is the one I think I used to get to Croxteth when I lived with my mum's Aunty on Middle Way for a while.

Then the 17(?) to my Grandad's on Arkles Lane.

It often was connecting with the 81D on Queens Drive, unless I took the train from Hunts Cross to Kirkdale or town.

Right, through fear of being called a bus spotter. These days, I'm a pampered resident of the capital who gets frustrated, tuts and shakes head if the next tube is more than 2 minutes!!

Frankie Durr one time lived in Everton Brow, further up the street from me. I never knew him or met him but a big house he reputedly lived in was always referred to as "the house that Frankie Durr lived in" – maybe when he was growing up?

I was about 11 or 12 when I used to knock about with Lenny Durr (and I am 73 now) at the time his brother Frankie (who I never met) lived in Newmarket.

Yes, Frankie Durr would have been close to 20 years older than you. He died in 2000 aged 74, so would have been serving his apprenticeship in Newmarket when you became mates with his brother. I presume Frankie would have lived in Everton Brow before I was born.

To reply.

First, the notion that this thread has somehow been ‘hijacked' (by me) and turned solely to a debate about Michael Keane. It's a common feature of TW threads, that multiple subjects get discussed. Long may it continue.

You yourself Darren attempted what you falsely accuse me of @ 278 when you went fishing for reaction, calling out Allan. Only you didn't get any bites, did you?

It was others, not me – including yourself in that same post about Allan – that introduced the subject of Michael Keane into the thread, stating he was ‘back to his old tricks of playing on Pickford's toes.'

It was that and other comments I called out @ 312 with the observation that ‘Commentary on the game is all about opinions. But at least try to make it real and not revert to hyperbolics. Or should that read 'hyperbollocks'?'

Now that got a few humphing in indignation, which conveniently ignores the fact that the likes of you and Danny O'Neil fessed up that you HAD been hyperbolic in your comments.

At 333 you admitted ‘it's footyspeak', not to be taken literally. Danny acknowledged he used 'colourful language' to describe Michael Keane.

Ergo, my observation was a legitimate one, admitted to by the perpetuators themselves.

Then there is the ‘positioning' you attempt, promoting yourself and those that share your views as being superior, more discerning and knowledgeable fans than those who simply offer a legitimate alternate view.

Well, at least they are considered ‘knowledgeable' whilst they agree with you as Danny does here. It certainly wasn't the case when Danny casually labelled Allan the ‘Brazilian Peter Reid' last season which you are still inclined to beat him with months later.

To that you can add you promoting the view that match-goers by default are better judges of a football match, players and tactics than those who view the game remotely.

That they have different perspective views of a game is undeniable. But you just have to read the comments by match-goers and remote viewers to negate the absurdity of such a claim. There are knowledgeable and insightful posters from both camps. Equally. there are absurd and ill-informed observations from both camps. Neither can be classified as ‘superior' or ‘preferred' over the other. There is no homogeneity in either group.

You also claim that ‘nobody says Keane's presence "alone" dictates our set-up or game-play.' Then clearly you have not read this thread or others over many months attentively. Because that IS a claim constantly being made by some.

For Danny O'Neil in particular for reasons best known to himself Michael Keane is a real trigger. Sorry Danny, but I wonder if you are aware of just how frequently you reference Michael Keane on all manner of unrelated threads. I personally find it tedious – tedious to the extreme – and just flip past them.

Yet I make a single brief legitimate observation on Michael Keane – the first in more than a year, as I said – and I'm the agitator. Convenient.

Next we have the typical projection that you indulge in Darren. Presuming other posters comment with the same intentions that motivate YOU. Namely, that I have ‘created an argument' seeking to achieve ‘a win'.

I don't claim, never have claimed and never will claim that my view is the only legitimate and definitive one. The clue is in the phraseology I use. My posts make it very clear I'm offering my personal opinion, sprinkled as they are with such phrases as ‘Personally', ‘I think', ‘I believe', ‘IMO'.

Clearly, I am someone who enjoys genuine debate. But unlike you Darren, I'm not concerned with ‘winning' a debate or having the final word. Unlike you, my ego is neither so inflated yet simultaneously so fragile that I lack the emotional maturity to engage in genuine debate, rather than the juvenile gainsay you frequently indulge in.

If it floats yer boat Darren, you keep deflecting, misrepresenting and fabricating what posters that agitate you actually say. I'll leave you to scavenge through the bins at the end of that particular cul de sac.

The reason he never won is because I thought that I should have got 10% for getting the bet on, but I can read now though mate, so I hope you've had a right few quid on Everton for the cup!!

I scored my first goal on the pitches of Scargreen, Brian, aged 8, playing in an Under-12s game, and although I genuinely think I'm in the early stages of dementia, I can still remember toe-poking it in the corner!

I was born in Scarisbrick Road, Broadway a short walk. Wife was born in the 4 squares, Queen Anne Place, moved to Croxteth where I met her.

Remember shops, swimming baths and the Regal on Broadway and the Cinema in Clubmoor. Mid 60s after football on a Sunday, I used to go to the Dockers Club.

Shame I never kept it but I had a membership Card for the Cavern from the first month it opened – it was a Jazz Club then. Used to walk to Goodison Park from Scarisbrick Road.

Memories are great, at least I can remember Everton actually winning something.

Of course not. The long, incredibly wordy, ridiculously self-contradicting posts telling people they are spouting hyperbollocks or that they are taking cheap shots. Making up false statements are simply the actions of a guy who isn't interested in winning a debate... No sir!

To answer the question as to whether one person speaks with greater authority than another depending on whether he attended the match or not? Of course it bleeding does. It makes all the difference in the world.

I spent decades attending every match, home and away, and I have lost count of the number of times I have phoned somebody on the way home and asked something like "Was he really offside?" You see, the person I would be ringing would have seen it on TV and while I had only seen the incident once in real speed, they would have had seen it 4-5 times, from every angle. I knew they would be speaking with authority on the matter more than me.

Conversely, I would be able to see things the guy who was watching on the box couldn't. I could see how far a team was being stretched, or if someone was not doing enough off the ball.

I view the question suspiciously, but if Brent Stephens was asking if I thought those Jay Wood was accusing of having "preconceived" idea's or talking "hyperbollocks" or taking "cheap shots" or any of the other things he was accusing them of, were speaking with more authority on the effect Keane's presence has on our shape, simply because they get to see the whole panoramic picture. Then the answer, IMO, is a categorical Yes. Every single one of them are better qualified than he is. Will that stop him trying to discredit their views? It's all up there.

Two Evertonians who are both avid supporters as recognized by their comments.

Jay (##420): Logical. Well researched. Aware and accepting of others' opinions. At times willing to accept he could be wrong. Well aware of the English Language with an ability to be assertive without being insulting, except when faced with idiotic rantings.

Darren (#423): Bombastic rantings of an egotistical, deluded Evertonian. His way is the "only" way. His self-proclaimed "Decades of Following Everton" has enabled him to recognize the naive wrongs of his fellow ordinary Blues.

Your final paragraph (#423) could have been written in Egyptian Hieroglyphs or Chinese Hanzi. I sincerely apologise if you had an ice cream brain freeze when writing that paragraph. OrIs it a secret code for your fans only?

So I wasn't the only one to make neither head nor tail of that last paragraph.

You're right about one thing: "It's all up there" for anyone with the mind to read the chronology and full context of who said what, how, when, and to whom, rather than your selective isolating of phrases taken out of context and given the Rocky Horror Show 'Hind Warp' treatment.

You know how Alexander solved the problem of the original Gordian Knot? He sliced through it with his sword.

A butter knife will suffice for your latest post.

Keep scavenging in them bins at the end of the cul-de-sac you keep placing yourself in, Darren.

You missed the hidden Hindinian code? It relies on only reading certain letters. I'll highlight them for you so you can see his admission.

"I view the question suspiciously, but if Brent Stephens wAs asking if I thought those Jay Wood was accusing of having "preconceived" idea's or talking "hyperbollocks" or taking "cheap shots" or any of the other things he was accusing theM of, WeRe speaking with mOre authority oN the effect Keane's presence has on our shape, simply because they Get to see the whole panoramic picture. Then the answer, IMO, is a categorical Yes. Every single one of them are better qualified than he is. Will that stop him trying to discredit their views? It's all up there."

Jay Wood, who only gets near a football pitch when he takes the dogs for a walk, is tellinga group of Evertonians who actually see the panoramic picture, that they are spouting "hyperbollocks" when they make their blindingly obvious observations about Keane. He then rather laughingly tries to prove he is right, by repeatedly claiming they have "admitted" guilt to his accusations.

He tells them they have a predisposed notion regarding Keane. He accuses them of saying taking "cheap shots" when they disagree… of claiming Keane is the only one who shapes the formation of the team.

Now if he was telling them a ball was out of play, or that a guy definitely touched the ball with his hands, I could understand it. But he is not. He is, as is his wont, preaching to the better informed.

I see the let's-score-a-point-without-mentioning-the-game gang are lining up. Same old faces. They are of very little interest to me. I did enough arguing with them when they spent 18 months getting it so fantastically wrong about the last manager.

If anyone wants to talk about the game or try to take on my points, knock yourself out. They are there to be shot at... you only need the wherewithal to do it.

I remember looking at some kid who was possibly a better footballer than me when I was about thirteen like he had two heads because whilst we were inside Wembley, he said he thought the pitch was to far away inside the stadium, and that he thought watching on the telly was better.

“You're mad, you” I said (maybe it was me who was mad?) “how can you see those little blindside runs, how can you see if the 60-yard pass is on, and how can you see the whole picture?”

Television is fine, anyone with a bit of knowledge can pick most things up, but as the jam sang, “When I'm in the crowd” is a unique experience. Although I'm not sure about those away games, Brent, because when you're surrounded by loads of drunks who won't sit down, then you probably see more whilst “Watching TV”. It's Roger Waters who I've got to thank for giving us that classic! (This post is probably another candidate for “it might as well have been written in Latin”!)

I went to Wembley for the League Cup final v Liverpool in '84. A mate's dad knew the Liverpool Chairman, and got me and another Evertonian tickets right on the halfway line, halfway up the stand. The stadium looked pretty compact from there and it was a perfect viewing spot.

Of course back at Goodison you could be in the Lower Bullens near the back and never see the ball once it goes over 3 metres.

Being at the game you can edit your own footage and watch a player(Keane) and see what he's up to throughout. From my telly, I really only get half the story, so I am in the Hind camp.

"Being at the game, you can edit your own footage and watch a player (Keane) and see what he's up to throughout. From my telly, I really only get half the story".

Including for away games, I assume?

And again. And again. Distorting what a poster has actually said and attributing to them claims they haven't made.

At 420 I made it explicitly clear that the match-attending fan and the remote viewer undeniably have different perspective views of a game.

I'm not the one planting my flag in one camp, insisting one view is superior whilst dissing the other perspective.

Again, I noted there is no monopoly in one camp or the other on the quality of post-match comments. That there are knowledgeable and insightful posters in both camps. Equally. there are absurd and ill-informed observations in both camps. Ergo, neither can be classified as ‘superior' or ‘preferred' over the other. There is no homogeneity in either group.

I can offer a real life example of just that. Two match-going fans attended the same match and couldn't even agree on the playing position of one single player.

The two fans? Myself and...Darren Hind.

Let me explain.

Back in September 2017 during the dying embers of Koeman's reign, I was back in Liverpool for the first time in 20 years.

I took my Brazilian wife on a pilgrimage to Goodison to the Everton-Sunderland League Cup tie which we won 3-0.

This was the line up:

Everton 3 Sunderland 0

There were a number of interesting talking points. On the Sunderland side there were no fewer than 3 ex-Blues in their starting XI - James Vaughan, Jack Rodwell and Darron Gibson.

The Everton side - remember to take four years off their ages - was a largely youthful one. Holgate and Kenny played full-backs. Williams and new-boy Keane the centre backs. Besic, Klaassen and Davies made up the midfield. Sandro and Vlasic flanked DCL who played the #9 central striker role. More of the latter in a mo. Oh! And Koeman finally relented and had Niasse on the bench.

My perspective of the live game recalls the following. James Vaughan in particular was well up for it, the most warmly received of our ex-players by the Goodison crowd on the night. He and Keane had a battle royal with neither backing down. This was the night that Michael Keane picked up his long-festering foot injury in a clash with Vaughan that we only learnt about a full year later.

The best player on the night by a country mile was Dominic Calvert Lewin. He was imperious. Scored two goals and almost completed a hat trick when a header hit the post before being subbed out on 66 minutes for Niasse.

The best midfielder, again by some distance, was Tom Davies. It was his pass that set up the third goal for Niasse which had Goodison roaring in delight. Klaassen was anonymous. Besic as poor a player as I've ever seen in a Blue shirt. Hapless and hopeless in everything. Positioning, technique, passing, tackling. A complete liability.

To demonstrate how attending a match offers you a perspective the remote viewer cannot see (contrary to the false claims Darren lays against me that I don't acknowledge that) I remember one particularly delicious move between two much maligned played - Williams and Kenny. You could see what was unfolding before it was completed.

Williams picked up the ball and started moving forward with it. Kenny, in a starting position behind him, set off at pace to attack the flank of Sunderland's penalty area. Williams saw Kenny's move and delivered a crossfield pass perfectly into Kenny's path which he took with aplomb, sped past the opposing full back and delivered a peach of a cross. Warmly applauded by all.

So what has this game got to do with match-attending Darren and me? The following...

MONTHS after this game Darren was going off on one about DCL not being played as a central striker, even though he was being picked regularly by Allardyce at that time.

For some reason the Everton-Sunderland game came up and Darren steadfastly refused to admit that Dom played central striker that night.

Look at the line-ups. Look at the substiutions.

What would be the obvious playing position for Dominic? What would be the natural playing position for Niasse who came on for him on 66 minutes? What would be the natural playing positions for Lookman who came on for Sandra on 73 minutes, and Lennon who replaced Vlasic on 82 minutes?

And yet Darren refused to concede that Dominic Calvert Lewin most certainly did play central striker that night. And this with his decades of watching Everton live.

Now for me its neither here nor there. If you believe MY view of DCL's starting position that night, or if you believe Darren's.

The point is, as I've stated a couple of times in this thread, there was no agreement, no homogeneity between just two match attending fans that night on something as simple as where exactly one single player was positioned.

Times that by 40,000 every home game, and by hundreds of thousands in the remote viewing audience and the obvious conclusion is that there is never any single view that can be categorically described as the definitive and 'superior' view, no matter how and where you view the game.

It's just Darren being Darren. Picking at a loose thread and running with it until he stands there bollock naked, only then realsing that he has defrocked himself.

I spent decades attending every match, home and away, and I have lost count of the number of times I have phoned somebody on the way home and asked something like "Was he really offside?" You see, the person I would be ringing would have seen it on TV and while I had only seen the incident once in real speed, they would have had seen it 4-5 times, from every angle. I knew they would be speaking with authority on the matter more than me.

Conversely, I would be able to see things the guy who was watching on the box couldn't. I could see how far a team was being stretched, or if someone was not doing enough off the ball.”

Nail on the head.

I used to laugh when Darren said that some people are obsessed with him. I'm starting to think he's right. The fact that a couple of them weighed in on his post to poke fun at a couple of typos in the final paragraph, rather than the part above, says it all.

Quite what the fuck a debate over a striker's position in a league cup game four years ago has to do with a couple of match goers correctly noting that the default, deeper position taken week in week out by a centre half - who turns slower than butter - can have on the shape of the whole team, is beyond me.

That's the sound of something going way over your head and missing a relevant point in response to something that Darren - nobody else - introduced to the thread which is another debate altogether from the discussion on Michael Keane.

You get it, or you don't. You evidently don't.

It's me who can't see the Wood for the trees…

As ever "less is more" springs to mind even allowing for the deranged penchant of airing grudges from years ago.

Hard to imagine how one gets that pained on the internet

I was merely suggesting that his last paragraph was convoluted garbage. Complete "Hindism"at its best. "Obsession" with Darren is perhaps a bit heavy. However if it means responding to his typical insults then I plead guilty.

This whole topic has become somewhat tedious and over responded to. It is just that I feel that Jay makes more sense in one sentence that Darren does in many boring and annoying paragraphs. He is ALWAYS right and never leaves any room for logical debate. He just has to have the "last word" But, probably that is the same for most Toffee Webbers. It is great because it draws out the best and the worst in all posters. Let's face it BAD news is often the most interesting.

Thanks, Eddie. I think we agree on the general point about needing consistency in the argument.

Dont talk in Riddles You got a question ask it. Ask it directly.

I'm all ears

I too was at that Milk Cup Final Eddie. Up in the gods at the very back in a corner section. So much so, I was actually sat on the concourse wall right under the roof. Talking of being at the match to appreciate the football better. I recall very little of that match. I may have only been 12, but I was just mesmerised at being at Wembley for the first time to see Everton that day.

Of course its the same. Being at the match is being at the match...Watching on the box is watching on the box....Unless you are suggesting the camera team follow us around and changes tactics when we are away from Goodison

Sigh

So, good to have confirmation of the weight you place on the views of those who attend away matches.

I think the question -- in question is

"does that mean that Blues who regularly attend our away games have more reliable views on those games than those who don't attend away games ("panoramic view", "seen with their own eyes")?

i.e. in the chain of knowledge, he would not be "the same" as you, he would have a better viewpoint as he sees home and away games in person with panoramic views. So he has more eyeball data to analyze and draw from.

I have always loved the away fans. I was one of them for over 40 years...but that does not mean I put any more weight on their views than anybody else..

Like home match-goers, occasional match-goers and armchair fans who can't get to the game, some of them are very knowledgeable and some of them are bleedin' idiots.

The point was about people who are at the games seeing a different game than those who are watching on the box. (It's one that several people have already agreed with.) If you disagree, that's your prerogative, but, by trying to separate the away fans and the home fans, you merely prove you don't understand it.

One is his first goal.

On the contrary - I was just asking you in #405 to confirm (which you now have) that that principle applies at all games, home and away - i.e. those "who are at the games see a different game than those who watch on the box". Home and away.

As you say, those attending a game have a "panoramic view" (your words), and have "seen [the game] with their own eyes" (your words). I haven't disagreed with anything at all that you've said. Just asked you to confirm, as you have, that that applies to home games and away games.

Like many threads, particularly match day threads, this one contains many diverse sub-themes. A thread is seldom static keeping to one single theme. It continual evolves.

I wasn't the one who introduced the subject of Michael Keane to this thread. Others did. I first made comment @ 314 at the hyperbole by 4 unnamed posters about the player.

Subsequently 2 posters - one of them being Darren - admitted their words should not be taken literally. Ergo, they embellished their description of Keane which was not a true reflection of his play. Reasonable to say then that they did indeed indulge in hyperbole.

That should be the end of it. But not for Darren. He constructs a complete lie that I have dissed and dismissed the legitimate views of match going Blues, promoting my own remote views as being more valid.

Two things here:

1) it didn't happen
2) whether the four posters whose hyperbole I called out were match-goers or not didn't even enter my thinking. As it was, of the four I was only aware of Danny O'Neill attending the game

And this is were we get the Hind Warp where Darren moves the discussion away from Michael Keane, to another topic altogether.
Namely, insisting that the view of the match-going fan takes precedence and is superior to that of the remote fan.

At 420 I offered a very explicit summation that takes a more balanced view. That there is no homogeneous, universal view in either camp and that neither camp is exclusively made up of fans with greater knowledge or out-and-out imbecility.

So given the above, in answer to your question 'what the fuck a debate over a striker's position in a league cup game four years ago has to do with [the themes in this thread] I thought it should be obvious.

It's this.

Darren has made great play on his belief that match attendees 'see' more and so are better placed to comment on events such as a player's positioning on the pitch.

At no time have I argued that a match goer doesn't have a fuller perspective of proceedings than the remote viewer. I called it undeniable.

My example of the Sunderland game from four years ago that exercises you so much Jim is completely relevant to the claims Darren makes, as well as highlighting the lack of universal agreement on proceedings by two fans attending the same game.

How anyone who attended that game and insist as Darren did that DCL did NOT play central striker that night should bewilder me. All the more so with his 'decades" of going the game.

But it doesn't. Because it's Darren. Having claimed at the time Dom was not getting games as central striker, it was beyond him to acknowledge in that game DCL most certainly did.

As I said previously, multiply that divergence of opinion between just 2 fans by 40,000 and you have an obvious example from the man himself on how there is never, ever universal consensus on a game or a player that Darren is attempting to claim, be they match-attendees or not.

We do not see things through one set of eyes for all.

Finally, on your observation that some TWers are obsessed with Darren.

I rather think the person most obsessed with Darren is Darren himself. Such is his vanity he cannot be seen to lose an argument or face.

Thus the frequency of the abrasive, cantankerous and rancourous posts which define him.

I also picked up on the fact that Darren didn't place the views of match-goers or people watching on TV above one another, but simply pointed out that they both have the benefits of different views.

It's blatantly obvious that you can see more of the build-up, positioning etc at the match as much as it is blatantly obvious that, with the advantage of replays, multiple camera angles and no obstructed views that you get a better view of goals and tight calls than the average match-goer.

Lord knows why others are so coy about citing the other thing but am I the only one who vividly remembers being "auditioned" for the church choir?

"Oh, for the wings of a dove!" is one song I'll never forget.

I'm loathe to extend this discussion but the only thing that monologue clarifies is that you are focused on settling old scores to understand the point the man made. Simply read post 456 which explains it quite succinctly.

Btw the irony in you writing the following will not be lost on anyone who reads these pages regularly.

“Such is his (Darren's) vanity he cannot be seen to lose an argument or face.”

Haha best post in the thread

It is a clear and relevant example and a very simple point I've made in response to Darren's claims in this thread.

How can two different match attendees 'see' something as obvious as who played centre forward and call it so differently?

As I said, no matter whether you are a match goer or a remote viewer, there is never universal consensus on the match or individual players.

Yet Darren states '[match attendees] speak with more authority...simply because they get to see the whole panoramic picture.'

Enlighten me Jim. Who determines who is the greater authority among match goers 'who get to see the whole panoramic picture' when their opinions on what they saw 'with their own eyes' are diametrically opposed as clearly is the case every single game?

Oh! And if it's alright with you, I will exercise my right to defend myself against distortions and correct out-and-out lies others post about me. Nowt to do with needing to always 'win' a debate.

Posted by Darren on the match day thread for the 1-1 away draw at Man Utd. Did he attend that game or watch on the TV? If the latter then his TV set has a lot more functionality than mine and I'd like to know where I can buy one.

Steve Brown

I watched the game at Manchester on TV. I commented on seeing Mina sweep his hands past his hips trying to push the rest of the defence forward. Did it give me a panoramic view ? did it fuck. Thats why I only commented on Mina...The rest of the team could have been strung out like awashing line for all I know. If I think on, I will ask my lad, He'd be better informed than me on the particular point.

That telly of yours ? It missed all that anti football Carlo played for eighteen months too didnt it ?...It may not be the telly you know. Have you tried switching it on ?

Hate to say it. HATE TO SAY IT. … but in this instance I think you're in the right

I'll admit I only piled in to wind Darren up as he's irascible but I think this debate is a bit silly as, in truth, no-one is wrong and I think both sides are in agreement. But, being an internet conversation, it comes across as hostile so people double down and miss the big picture.

All joking aside, I also think you are right. You do see more of the team shape when you are at the game.

Perhaps the moderators have mistaken his identity with a Latvian counterpart? This type of data protection breach is completely unacceptable due to the serious detrimental effects on the victim and how these posts are viewed by his contemporaries.

If the same thing happens today, then just listen to the dog's abuse that Tom Davies will receive from the stands. I hope I'm wrong again.

Posting this around as I unfortunately can't travel today through illness. I left it late, but my ticket is going if anyone wants to attend. Upper Bullens and I don't want anything for it.

dannyefc26@gmail.com

My original 'hyperbolics' post that causes you so much angst is still up there @ 314 to view in its full context.

As are Danny's posts @ 331 and your own @ 333 acknowledging that you both 'embellished' your comments to exaggerate Michael Keane's default position.

Case closed then. But no. You keep picking at the scab and pervert my words into the false claim that I am dissing and dismissing the views of match-going fans.

Show me any post at all where I - not YOU, but me - have stated as much.

Similar with the 'cheap shot' comment you misportray as me deriding all and any dissenting views to my own opinions. It was addressed to one poster and one poster only - Tony Abrahams - about one clause he used and fully explained to him @ 325.

At 393 you accuse me of 'coming in swinging and screaming' with my comment @ 314 that so triggered you. I did no such thing. Didn't even step out of my bathrobe or flip-flops. I'll happily leave the hysterics and drama queen act to you.

Further, that I was singularly responsible for shifting the focus of the thread on to Michael Keane. Again, it's all up there. I wasn't the one who brought Keane into the discussion.

It was you, no one else, that took the discussion off in another direction about the different perspectives of match goers v remote viewers.

My post @ 420 clearly lays out my balanced view on that, pointing out that such is the diverse range of opinion in both camps that neither can be classified as ‘superior' or ‘preferred' over the other. That there is no homogeneity in either group.

Even now, of the four people whose comments my original post @ 314 noted, I am only aware of one - Danny - who attended last week's match. I have no idea if the other three people - you, Tony Abrahams and Jerome Shields - attended or not. It is also a total irrelevance as it didn't influence the comments I made. That's another contrivance by you.

Finally, like Steve Brown I also wondered at the time about the comment he quoted of your observations about Mina v United if the following came with the benefit of live match attendance, or through the images all remote viewers share:

'I watched our centre-backs with great interest yesterday...Mina spent nearly the entire match trying to usher a reluctant Keane to shuffle up 4-5 yards.'

Given all you've posted on different match viewing perspectives, I'm intrigued to know how you contrived to 'see' Mina spending nearly the entire match doing what you claim.

Hands up any other remote reviewers who feel confident enough to make such a sweeping statement based on what they saw.

Dare I say it, more hyperbolics from you Darren based more on confirmation bias on what you saw rather than hard evidence. All the more so that you now add 'The rest of the team could have been strung out like awashing line for all I know.'

A final comment on me choosing to post that some question.

Several different posters have addressed me directly. Some I answer, others I ignore. My choice. My right.

TW doesn't have a private messaging facility that allows two posters to have an exchange unseen by others. Therefore, a reply addressed to an individual is seen by all.

Each of us then have a choice. Read it, or ignore it. There is plenty on TW I happily scroll past daily.

Time to focus on a new day, a new game.