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1 Posted 07/09/2021 at 07:23:59
The other problem is a preference for 1-year extensions for aged players, rather than building replacements, and the lack of youth coming through the ranks. Often, the most promising are being loaned out to reduce the wages percentage.
This has been a pattern for years at Everton which needs breaking. Because of continual crisis management, numerous changes of manager, the preference has been for experienced professional players, which has its drawbacks. Since Big Sam, Everton has been risk-averse to youth. Either the managers are playing safe or have no confidence in the youth setup at Everton.
2 Posted 07/09/2021 at 08:40:17
Sigurdsson, Walcott, Schneiderlin, Williams, Bolasie, etc. There's probably £150M spent on that list alone. Sickening.
We need to either go back to the “bargains and misfiring potential” of Moyes (where Rafa has started), the very promising youth model (Lookman, Vlasic, Onyekuru, Deulofeu, Kean, etc) or the raw youth and development level.
They go up on risk as they are set out above. For me, whilst the middle model has failed on the pitch and players named, it's the one where we've actually at least broke even. If we'd had different managers maybe they those players would now be a core part of the team or sold for more profit to invest in more.
It's really the “Dortmund, Ajax and Red Bull” model. It should be set in stone. If Brands can't deliver it find someone who can. If Rafa won't play and develop them, then find someone who can (in a year or two when he's got us stable again). But for fuck's sake, have a strategy that is sustainable, eh, Moshiri!
3 Posted 07/09/2021 at 08:58:12
Yannick Bolasie - £30m
Morgan Schneiderlin - £24m
Ashley Williams - £9m
Ademola Lookman - £10m
Idrissa Gueye - £7m
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - £1.5m
Maarten Stekelenburg - £1m
Enner Valencia - loan
Gylfi Sigurdsson - £45m
Michael Keane - £30m
Jordan Pickford - £30m
Davy Klaassen - £24m
Theo Walcott - £20m
Cenk Tosun - £27m
Nikola Vlasic - £8m
Henry Onyekuru - £7m
Sandro Ramírez - £5m
Cuco Martina - free
Wayne Rooney - free transfer
Eliaquim Mangala - loan
Richarlison - £44m
Yerry Mina - £28.5m
Lucas Digne - £18m
Kurt Zouma - loan
Andre Gomes - loan
Alex Iwobi - £35m
Moise Kean - £27.5m
Andre Gomes - £22m
Jean-Philippe Gbamin - £25m
Fabian Delph - £10m
Jarrad Branthwaite - £1m
Jonas Lossl - free
Djibril Sidibe - loan
Ben Godfrey - £30m
Allan - £21m
Abdoulaye Doucoure - £22m
Niels Nkounkou - free
James Rodríguez - free
Robin Olsen - loan
Demarai Gray - £1.7m
Andros Townsend - free
Asmir Begovic - free
Andy Lonergan - free
Salomon Rondon - free
4 Posted 07/09/2021 at 09:26:21
Your list certainly highlights the problem, how can you spend so much on such mediocre players. Looking at the list year by year it looks like Ancelotti may have had the best window, but time will tell. The other depressing thing is when we off loaded some of these players we got back very little in transfer fees compared to what we paid for them. It really is astounding that you can spend all that money and yet the club goes backwards while spending these eye watering amounts.
5 Posted 07/09/2021 at 09:46:16
Firstly, I'm not ageist and don't have an issue in bringing in experience to be tempered with youth and potential. Any sound transfer and development strategy should balance both in my opinion.
But looking at the current first-team squad, none of the following were in the 27 - 30 range when they joined Everton after Moshiri taking control in February 2016. Some still aren't:
Now, whether we think the standard is good enough or if the transfer strategy has been effective are different questions that many, myself included have critically called out. But just because we signed James Rodriguez, Doucouré and Allan last season doesn't tell me that our focus has been on the 27 - 30 range during Moshiri's time at the helm.
Sorry, that just irked me a bit!!
6 Posted 07/09/2021 at 10:51:18
However, biggest financial disasters (and the reason we are now in the shit) have though - imho - been in the big buys in the age range Ive specified, and some of the players Ive named.
Not sure what the pedantics are trying to prove tbh, unless you are arguing that we havent been spending money on this age group and should be? My primary point was about the need to invest in promising young players.
7 Posted 07/09/2021 at 11:05:10
8 Posted 07/09/2021 at 11:10:46
- generally young reserves from clubs with swollen squads (ie champions league teams home and abroad)
- the championship
- the best generally young players from relegated clubs
- players pinched from other academies
- the best generally young players from middling clubs in strong foreign leagues / top clubs in weak leagues
You can also apply age, wage and cost restrictions to limit the risk of failure / increase the chance of shipping people out who do fail. Wage and cost restrictions might be different for different age players.
It's not perfect but if you apply those principles you would exclude:
Might still have bought Iwobi and Klaasen and Kean.
Might not, possibly, have bought Richarlison.
This is not particularly unlike what Moyes did for years to generally good effect, or what Martinez did in that very successful initial rebuild - or indeed what Benitez has done this year.
It basically excludes the poorest value parts of the market, which is where you pay big money and wages for average players. It also leaves you with a better chance of realising some sell on value to reinvest in new players.
I suspect we'll be working broadly along these lines for now because Benitez seems to buy into the idea - which means there's better alignment between manager and DoF.
9 Posted 07/09/2021 at 11:14:45
Under 27, weve recouped fees for Lookman, Vlasic, Gueye, Onyekuru, Klaassen and Kean. Cant remember how much they all went for, but if someone wants to calculate it, it would make an interesting comparison.
10 Posted 07/09/2021 at 11:48:06
Regardless of age, I think most of us agree the transfer non-strategy of the past few years has been alarming. Last summer was probably the best we've performed. A bit of proven experience combined with a bit of potential. That's the ideal scenario in my view as long as the players are of the right standard and last summer, we done well on both counts. Again, in my view and every transfer is a gamble as you just never know if they'll be a good fit.
That said, despite being underwhelmed at the time, let's see how this Demarai Gray gets on. Positive so far. And one thing I've seen from Townsend so far is commitment and desire as well as a bit of leadership thrown in.
Robert @78. I'm influenced by my youth, but your strong foreign league point. I have no idea why Brands, with his nationality, doesn't tap into the Dutch, German and even the Danish leagues. Surely he has connections there?
11 Posted 07/09/2021 at 11:53:53
However some of the big money spent is slightly offset by:
Cleverley, somehow, £8m
Funes Mori 8m
Is that about 191m?
So indeed we have spent poorly. However we have offset the best part of the 500m disaster with almost 200m back in that time.
We overspent on Gylfi and although he hasnt been a 45m player, if hed been 20m I think many wouldve been ok with his return over the last few years. So I see him as 25m in the toilet rather than the full 45.
And we have assets -
DCL and Richarlison at the moment could recoup 150m in transfer fees.
Some, if not most of the others such as Digne, Doucoure Mina etc are probably worth around what we paid for them.
Others like Davies and Holgate Could give us a sensible profit.
Likewise Godfrey although I would say that he could and should have capacity for massive value increase.
In essence its not as awful as it first appears and whilst there are many Id still like to see gone, we are stuck with them. But we have managed to ship on some of the deadbeats and the ethos seems to be that we will stick with this.
12 Posted 07/09/2021 at 12:06:33
Lets face it, who would want to sign elsewhere for less money, when they can sit on their arses, and run their contract down, getting paid more for doing next to nothing.
Even now Tosun is refusing to sign for a Turkish team and said he is resting an injury, but will move in the January window, only a couple of Months ago he said he would move, if Everton pay his final 12 Month contract up, in full.
Hopefully now, we will see an end to giving new signings, silly wages.
13 Posted 07/09/2021 at 12:11:08
14 Posted 07/09/2021 at 12:14:13
15 Posted 07/09/2021 at 12:23:13
Given Everton's reputation, the 25 to 27 they wanted did not see Everton as a good career move, so Brands had to take chances on injury-prone p!ayers who inevitably were bought in over-priced. A supposed step up from paying over the top for average players, which had happened before Brands arrived, but gave similar results. Brands tried to fast-track the academy by reducing the age profile of the U23s and buying in promising young players, but there are no results.
As Everton stand now, Benitez is faced with an Everton that has not progressed or changed and results in a groundhog dependence on aged players on extended contracts, a varying defence, a need to improve midfield, and an attack that needs to score more.
Anyone coming in, either manager or player, is expected to work with an unchanging, unproductive and unsuccessful structure. Benitez has made good signings. We do not know what he actually thought of the other prospects or if he wanted them. When I saw the long list of loans out, I did wonder how Benitez is going to field a side in the Carabao Cup.
There does not appear to be a strategy, other than to tinker with the existing failed structure.
16 Posted 07/09/2021 at 12:24:47
Interesting comment from Tommy Carter on the Coleman thread.
If you look at what we've eventually, and somehow, managed to recuperate, plus the near £50M for Stones, the £500M outlay is actually closer to half that amount.
If we're talking transfer fees. It's the wages that kill you.
It doesn't excuse our shockingly bad approach to throwing money around once we finally had it, but it does paint a different picture. We only wasted about £280M!!!!!
17 Posted 07/09/2021 at 12:32:57
18 Posted 07/09/2021 at 12:52:58
Tommy, it is really very bad when you compare how we've done relative to others. Our net spend is extraordinarily high for a club that is neither (a) successful nor (b) desperately trying to build up a recently promoted side. It's why we've got further away from the Top 6 and made it so easy for other mid table sides to match or overtake us.
Like I say though I'm impressed with the business this summer and am hopeful Benitez can build a decent platform to coincide with players like Branthwaite, Gordon, Simms, Onyango, Price etc maturing into first-team squad quality players.
19 Posted 07/09/2021 at 12:58:46
20 Posted 07/09/2021 at 13:21:27
21 Posted 07/09/2021 at 13:34:47
This "long list of loan-outs" that you've seen. I wonder how long it is? If it's so long that it would cast doubt on Benitez's ability to field sides for the Carabao Cup, then it would indeed have to be pretty long.
We currently have 27 players listed in our first-team squad but two of those won't be playing – Sigurdsson and Tosun – leaving 25 to be registered with the Premier League. Beyond them, we have at least 20 more players at U23 level, any number of which could slot in on the subs bench for Carabao Cup games.
I must conclude you're talking nonsense.
22 Posted 07/09/2021 at 14:16:01
23 Posted 07/09/2021 at 14:26:55
Of course it is bad when comparing to some other clubs.
But there are others whove had it bad, comparatively as well. Fulham and Sheff Utd have dropped out of the league having spent heftily in the last couple of years.
But looking just at us in the context of the Mirror article, the initial thought is that we are unsuccessful and 500m in the hole.
No. We are unsuccessful but with a fair track record on generating transfer fees in the last 5/6 years and we have two attacking players, in our team right now who have many of their best years ahead of them, who at a conservative estimate would cost 150m in the current market.
Attacking players who rarely (touch wood) miss games and in the last 2 full seasons in a toiling not very creative side have managed 161 games between them scoring 63 goals.
I think when 5 years ago if you have said wed have an England International centre forward capable of 20 goals in a season and Brazilian International starting forward with over 30 caps and a 1 in 3 goal record then wed have taken that.
Thats within the context of losing Rom, who we were never going to be able to keep despite the fact some fans who sat around me thought he wasnt good enough for us and expressed this via a chorus of boos
24 Posted 07/09/2021 at 14:29:47
Great post and thanks for the detail.
To me it looks like the first 2 years were disasters but the last 3 years recruitment shows a progressively more successful intake.
There are still poor examples but that will always be the case even for the much-lauded David Moyes (Per Krøldrup vs Eric Dier).
I think Brands and the last 2 managers have got it largely right and that should give us a foundation for the future. (Lack of right-back recruitment duly noted).
25 Posted 07/09/2021 at 15:03:29
When Moyes spent big, it was often with mixed results. A trend he continued at Manchester United despite everybody telling Evertonians that his lack of transfer budget was what was preventing us from winning a trophy.
When Moyes was given the opportunity to break our transfer record, he did so by signing James Beattie. A signing that absolutely did not work out.
Krøldrup was big money at that time, for us.
Then really big with Andy Johnson, who was a mixed bag, but I think we somehow made a profit on him. Bilyaletdinov was also a disappointment.
26 Posted 07/09/2021 at 15:11:15
Rafa, on the other hand, with Torres and Alonso, does seem to be able to pull this trick off more often than not. So I think our big money will be much safer with him.
Just a shame we haven't got any.
27 Posted 07/09/2021 at 15:21:31
Martinez in just a couple of seasons had given us Lukaku and Stones (albeit Stones was bought but not played by Moyes and Koeman sold Lukaku) who really have gone places with their talent. Deulofeu had talent but plateaued. Barkley possibly declined.
It suggests to me that you need the safe Moyes profile type 24- or 25-year-olds to form a team – but you need racier top-class Martinez profile youth to take you up a notch.
I think Benitez is building a Moyes-esque team at the moment. Hopefully some exciting world-class youth will arrive at some point too.
28 Posted 07/09/2021 at 15:50:20
Tell me didn't cost £10M.
29 Posted 07/09/2021 at 16:17:50
30 Posted 07/09/2021 at 17:01:03
31 Posted 07/09/2021 at 18:30:47
32 Posted 07/09/2021 at 18:44:45
33 Posted 07/09/2021 at 18:53:10
Obviously, there have been more mistakes than would be expected for the overall cost to Everton FC. but we still have a squad of players that should comfortably finish top-half this season, providing long-term injuries don't bite us too hard. If the manager finds a way to pick up more points than we might expect, there's even the outside chance of qualifying for Europe and if he gets really lucky in the cups we might be celebrating in 2022.
It costs money to stay afloat in this league and if some fans are expecting the club to make do and mend on a shoestring for the long term, they will be disappointed, if Everton does go to that mode of operation for the long term we'll all be very disappointed.
34 Posted 07/09/2021 at 19:01:23
I will take the afternoon off work so I can travel up from London. I will either book a hotel or stay with family overnight and take the next day off too to travel back.
It will cost me a fortune as my better half continues to maintain her stance to double what I spend in terms of transferring to her own bank account.
In some ways I care about all of this and comment as much as anyone on here.
But come Monday all I will care about is Everton and what happens on the pitch. That's really what it comes down to for me.
I'll deal with the aftermath, hangover and constant reminding of who is more important in my life later!!
35 Posted 07/09/2021 at 19:06:43
I think you are misreading Kevin's comment... I think he's saying that when you list every signing, it makes for depressing reading but he's not actually saying every signing was bad.
37 Posted 07/09/2021 at 21:13:05
Its the sheer number of £10m-£20m plus signings thats depressing, only to end up with an arguably worse squad than when we started.
38 Posted 07/09/2021 at 23:56:42
I hope he's both sensible and decent enough to acknowledge that and keep a long-term view which will ultimately see success both on and off the pitch.
We fans just have to hope and support in the best way we can.
39 Posted 08/09/2021 at 01:14:24
So now, 5 years after having shown his own incompetent arse as an owner to the whole world of professional football, and after having said when he bought in, “there's never been a more level playing field in the Premier League than now", he's supposed to be embarking on a magical, for him, "Plan B" to even try to start establishing a scintilla of credibility, is he?
And we, the fans, are seemingly now expected to meekly accept (as we've done with our boardrooms down the decades) that the boardroom that wholly failed to deliver the 2016 inane project now has the gravitas to deliver.
If any one of us believes that, they presumably consider ‘Sasha' Ryazantsev to have been the ultimate boardroom toss-pot, despite having only been in charge as he reportedly was of developing the Everton Ladies' Team and overseeing spending by others in the boardroom.
He's now been supplanted by Usmanov's mid-20s nephew on the board, you know, the nephew who's seemingly already improved our Ladies' Team to such an extent that they are now expected to be the best of those teams that never win a trophy or qualify for anything important.
Sound familiar folks?
Maybe, just maybe, a seriously significant number of us will one day (soon) in unison identify the boardroom shyster who's still our chairman after a record-breaking 26-year period of no trophy success whatsoever, still serving, in the words of our ridiculous owner, "in a newly enhanced role".
"Can't see the wood for the trees" to me sums up the feeble acquiescence of way too many of us Everton fans to the chief pseudo in the boardroom, for 30 years of diddly-squat.
Except for himself of course.
40 Posted 08/09/2021 at 08:19:44
“When probed, the Premier League story doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The top division's clubs have only recorded a collective profit four times this century. Outside of the elite, things were even worse.”
“Beneath the hype and global profile, English football was living on the never-never, dependent on continually growing its income to paper over the cracks in its finances. It was like a Ponzi scheme: once the growth stopped, the weaknesses would be visible to all.”
Maybe Moshiri is a "glass half-full" kind of guy.
41 Posted 08/09/2021 at 09:00:37
I think the Big 3 has sort of already happened. The RS are hanging on in there through a very effective recruitment strategy and quality management. They also get a boost from Champions League revenue. However, at their own admission, they can't compete financially and don't attempt to. What does the future hold after Salah, Mane and Klopp?
Arsenal are no longer in the same league as the Big 3. I'm not sure Spurs ever really were.
42 Posted 08/09/2021 at 11:39:55
I have no issue with it, players will generally earn what the current market value dictates. But there are several players that would make interesting comparisons.
So-called hits, such as Richarlison and Digne vs Sigurdsson and Mina vs flops Delph and Gbamin. Then compare to the younger lads that have come through, eg, Dom, Tom, and Mason.
With Ronaldo and Romelu back in the Premier League, average salary costs will continue to go upwards as the benchmark is stretched. Should make it fun when it comes to renewing several contracts... I'm thinking of Richarlison's and Dom's in particular, now they are regular internationals.
43 Posted 08/09/2021 at 12:45:22
44 Posted 08/09/2021 at 13:03:37
I think you're spot-on given Don's casual gear wardrobe!
45 Posted 08/09/2021 at 13:37:24
47 Posted 08/09/2021 at 22:26:42
. Actually I felt afterwards that the post you refer to was below par. Letting my concerns get the better of me.
Actually, how did I get on this thread? Good thread though.
48 Posted 08/09/2021 at 22:49:37
I have wanted an extended Carobao Cup run for seasons, but have a lack of confidence that it will happen this season. But hope is eternal.
50 Posted 09/09/2021 at 11:42:46
It would be interesting to compare the wage bills of the clubs alongside the transfer fees to see the differences between the clubs.
It is also worth remembering that, despite Everton's spending on the current squad being higher than Leicester City's, they had a squad that was good enough to win the league at the start of Moshiri's spree, and the usual suspects were regularly hoovering up trophies or qualifying for Europe.
51 Posted 09/09/2021 at 14:37:08
Probably bad luck though, rather than the responsibility of anyone in the boardroom, eh readers?
52 Posted 11/09/2021 at 09:35:49
Look at Kevin Campbell back in the nineties. It should be an honour to play for Everton.
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