Everton U21 side soundly beaten by Carlisle United

Might be good for them to get more minutes in a professional game and might also bring more out of the likes of Warrington, Welch, Whitaker and Price.

On that, anyone know if Onyango is getting close to fitness?

Do you happen to know whether Onyango might be in contention or still recovering?

I know it's hard, it's men against young lads, but I like to see young players wanting to express themselves, although sometimes I get the feeling that the way they're being coached doesn't allow it.

Warrington was good at spraying the ball about from deep but no killer movements from us. He reminds me a bit of Ryan Ledson who was similarly good at spraying the ball about but lacked something special when it came to carrying it forward. I wonder if Onyango can make that difference when he returns?

Some of these kids are looking leggy and tired, that's probably the worst that Whitaker and Price have played this season. Another game Friday night too. It's a tough run of games.

It might be a lack of genuine talent. But players like Whitaker, McAllister and Garcia are good footballers who should be capable ahead of the likes of Warrington and Price in deeper positions.

There's just no quick passing or movement in the attacking third. Onyango will help because he's so big, almost like Fellaini, but we could really use a couple of talented wingers at this level – people to dribble, ask questions etc.

Unless Unsworth has been specifically told to play that system from above, they should always where possible try to mirror the first-team system in under age teams as it means you play exactly the same whatever level – just the quality grows. If Unsworth really thought that team system would beat a team of seasoned pros when it can't even beat other U23s teams, he needs to wake up.

As for resting players, there is enough about to rotate but he doesn't do it much then plays some but blames them because they come in from the cold and some were out of position.

I didn't catch tonight's game (but did watch the recent narrow defeat against Man Utd) but if Whitaker played worse tonight than he did against United then that is really saying something.

Not quite sure why Unsworth thought Whittaker could play as the lone central striker against United as he seems very lightweight to me. And it's not a size thing as Rafa Garcia looks smaller but somehow manages to make himself a nuisance against bigger defenders, while Whitaker gets brushed aside far too easily.

Maybe he'd say our Kenwright-appointed scouts deliver such inadequate sprogs that his job is impossible before he, Kenwright-appointed as he is in his own right, even starts, or maybe he's just hoping that the Everton fan-base never begin, repeat, begin, to ponder just who's been amiss in the boardroom of our club, for the past thirty fruitless years?

Good shout on Pienaar. I know we've discussed this previously, but I always feel regret when I see Leon Osman on the tele doing his pundit thing. He's doing well, but what a waste in my opinion.

As much as I'm no advocate of the comfy zone old boys club, I'd much rather he was on the training grounds at Finch Farm than commenting on the box.

The kids will get tired Phill, and something that I thought was a great idea, (playing everyone up at a higher level) has obviously got its drawbacks, and finding the happy medium that people like Michael Kendrick have talked about, has hopefully also got to be part of the plan?

Danny, Osman and Pienaar both played at the top because they had great little football brains, and never because they could win a race or a full blooded tackle, and they are the two who I’d love to see at finch farm teaching 16-21 year old footballers, especially Pienaar because of his connections to the great Ajax academy, and the way he always came towards the ball. Obviously coached into him from an early age?

I'm a big fan of him but happy to call it when he has a bad game. Yes, he's not an out-and-out lone striker, but for the Man Utd game, he was our only option, Dobbin was with the first team, Cannon has missed our last two, presumably injured. Garcia came on at half-time against Man Utd to play up front.

In a previous game, with Dobbin and Cannon ahead, Whitaker played as a No 10 behind them, then alongside Cannon when Dobbin went off, then on his own up front when Cannon went off. I like that kind of versatility and giving them exposure to different positions when young, so I'm not too critical of Whitaker being played up front occasionally.

Ellis Simms, Branthwaite and Onyango would have made a big difference last night. But overall you can't help but feel a bit deflated by this run of results from the youngsters, and the inescapable conclusion that some are just not good enough.

I've generally defended Unsworth because I think he gets a lot of stick through association with Kenwright – but I would like to see the style of play develop. In the current system, the players seem to stand out for physical attributes more than ability.

I watched Grealish last night for City, he was the same: waiting for the ball, then getting it standing still, giving the opposition time to come and cover him. At the very top level, he will struggle, and this is one of the reasons why.

He is Ajax through and through having started out as a youngster in one of their satellite academies in South Africa before moving to the real thing. And then a spell at Borussia Dortmund.

His footballing pedigree and, as you say, he brain, is impressive to say the least. And he does no doubt have an affiliation to Everton.

Imagine him bringing some of that academy and development philosophy to Finch Farm?

In Tiny crowd says it all at Carlisle United v Everton U21s in Papa John's Trophy, the Carlisle journo pulls no punches in disdainfully condemning the EFL Trophy as "the thin end of the wedge" on B-teams entering the Football League – a good read for Danny to comment on, perhaps.

Then the Echo takes an entirely different tack with the bold claim that Everton have a raw but exciting potential left-back solution, talking up the performance of Eli Campbell, who is a 17-year-old centre-back barely out of the U18s – a bit premature for me but, yes, that's what the new system of young teams and lost games is meant to produce: players ready for the first-team.

How often do you watch a game of football and mutter to yourself - play it quicker? How often do you watch a game of football and think - he’s passed that to soon?

I’ve watched a bit of academy football over the last few seasons, and I honestly sometimes get the feeling that it’s not about the players, but it’s about the coach, and with most of them seeming to run off a similar program, I just get the feeling that rather than harnessing natural ability, it’s actually stopping these kids from sometimes thinking for themselves?

I'd agree on all of that Tony. On top of ability, desire, commitment and fitness, there's the intelligence aspect to the game. The decision making. Now only the best will have all, but intelligence & decision making are a crucial aspect of any player's game. Knowing when to go and when to hold.

The Pep Guardiola "Take the Ball, Pass the Ball" philosophy. See it play it mindset. Don't think about it, the first pass / option is probably the best one. If you haven't watched the documentary, I recommend.

Then to contradict that, patience on the ball if you think you have time and space. Kevin Sheedy against Bayern Munich where he seemingly slowed the game down (in his own head) and waited until the timing was right. I'm not comparing, but dare I say Allan last season against Southampton on the edge of his own box. He waited and waited until he saw the pass was on then executed, which resulted in an assist to a goal.

Decision making and football intelligence, regardless of whether you go quick or you hold.

I agree, too much is about the coaches at the younger levels. It should be about letting the kids express themselves and make mistakes, not constrain their natural ability. Let it develop. Results don't matter.

In the other article, Eli Campbell has been a welcome surprise at left wing back, he’s been quietly competent defensively, gets the ball forward well but attacking wise is no Nkounkou/ Small. They also failed to mention that Campbell played centre back for the u18s last Saturday, so he’s played a lot recently. And in that u18 game we had a young 15 year old left back Ishe Samuels-Smith, cue a “ the next Small” from the Echo soon!

On the subject of B teams / feeder clubs, it makes sense in many respects but I can't see it happening any time soon. The big 3 have used the Dutch, Belgian and other leagues instead. Leipzig obviously done similar. This might be better for brighter talents than a spell in the third tier having the shit kicked out of them while the ball flies over their heads. Good life experience too. Lot of West African players in particular have to grow up very quickly far from home. We tend to expect much less from our local boys.

Obviously as an advocate of the B Team concept, I'm likely to lean one way here, but I see the concern that it could undermine the lower leagues with further infiltration from the bigger clubs.

I would also consider that this is a meaningless trophy and considered as such by both Carlisle and their fans. And rightfully so.

Drawing parallels to my Director of Football views, don't half bake it. Go full in or just don't do it at all. Would the Carlisle manager have made 9 changes and only 825 fans turned up if they were playing Everton B in a competitive league match that meant points on the board to seek promotion or avoid relegation? An Everton B team that wouldn't have just contained U21 prospects, but also some seniors playing in an actual league fixture?

Remember the Full Members Cup? Everton v Liverpool in a so called competitive match but we all knew it meant nothing so I think only 20,000 turned up for a Derby.

I still think the B Team concept is a way forward. But I also think that is linked to an overall restructure of English football. There are too many professional teams. Sorry to bang my German drum again, but 3 professional leagues with 56 teams in a country with a population of over 80 million.

We have 4 leagues of 92 plus and effective 5th tier professional league in a country with a population of 55 million (England).

Phill Thompson, what you allude to is the German model. The B teams have to remain in the regional leagues that underpin the Bundesliga and can't be promoted. I'd prefer the Spanish model, but that's a radical overhaul. And I appreciate, unlikely to happen. But it's what I'd do.

The B Team plays in the same league system as the senior / first team but can't play in the same league. They could just be called Barcelona B (as is) but might also be another club that gets re-branded. For example Real Madrid Castilla.

They also compete in the cup competition and there was an instance of when Real Madrid played Real Madrid Castilla in the final. Imagine that day out; Everton playing Everton at Wembley?!!!

So let's say Everton B won the Championship and Everton remained in the Premier League, Everton B wouldn't get promoted and the place would go to the next best placed team.

Similarly if Everton got relegated, Everton B would automatically drop to League 1. Double jeopardy!

It happened in Spain once when the top 2 teams in the second tier where Real Madrid Castilla & Bilbao Atletico (obviously Real Madrid B & Atletico Bilbao B respectively) took the the top 2 berths. The 3rd and 4th place teams got promoted. You could argue big club domination, but then those clubs benefited even though they didn't finish in the promotion places.

Also, the clubs are entitled and allowed to make "transfers" between senior and B teams throughout the season, even outside the transfer windows.

I like the concept. In all honesty and realistically, we're more likely to see a model where clubs like Everton formally have relationships with, let's say, a club like Blackpool. So it's a hybrid model that straddles the B-Team / Feeder / Loan system constructs and lets them keep their brand and identify. But you're doing it with one club, not scattering our players to the 4 winds to be overseen by different coaches, systems and techniques. They're all Everton players, playing together in the same team in a competitive league as they develop. And Everton can influence the coaching and how that club plays. So its effectively a B Team in all but name.

Danny, that Spanish system makes loads of sense imo.

If a person from outside of the city was to take the Echo's website 'news' page as a guide to what the city of Liverpool is like, they would avoid visiting, as mostly the representation by the Echo of its residents is one of drug-fuelled, layabouts harbouring criminal and violent intentions. How this helps the city in any way is a mystery to me, but I suppose it helps to sell copy and garners enough clicks to justify the output.

In the scenarios you describe, I presume the "B" team always has to be in a lower division. So you couldn't have Everton "B" promoted to the top flight in the same season Everton were relegated. I suppose, if that was allowed the "A" team might never get back!

Keep donating for Derek's collection if you can. Do you know what we're at Brian / Derek?

We currently struggle to field a decent First XI, let alone have a B team. I'd rather some arrangement like a tie up with say Dundee Utd or Brondby or even a club in the MLS whereby we loan them our best and also buy players to place with them for development. I don't think we'd ever manage to support our own version of Salzburg for example. But we could have the likes of Simms, Gordon and Onyango all playing top flight football for the same club in Scotland, competing for trophies and even playing in Europe.

This sort of arrangement kicked things off for Solanke, Mount and others at Vitesse Arnhem. Might also have been away to keep talents like Vlasic and Lookman at the club, sparing us the need to buy the likes of Iwobi.

Grim thought

For me, at a time when lots of smaller clubs in the lower reaches of the EFL and in the National Leagues are really struggling to survive and thrive, the prioritising of how the richer clubs get bigger and stronger in terms of the development of young players is not a great look.

It feels like an unpleasant place to end up with community clubs losing their sense of identity.

I do like the idea of some feeder / affiliation arrangement though as a better transition to first team football thanU23s and the daft competition we played in last night.

I just think we need to restructure. And that could be a way to do it. The bigger clubs "adopt" a neighbour club as their B team. It helps us, it helps the likes of Bury as Robert mentions.

Which leads me to your point Andrew Keating. It's not about making it fit the current pyramid. It's about overhauling the pyramid and re-designing it. We have too many professional clubs playing in national leagues.

Germany - 3 national leagues before it goes regional.
Italy - 4 national leagues (but only 3 professional) before it goes regional. The 4th tier is defined "inter-regional".

I'll repeat, I like the B Team concept, but I think for English football, the more realistic model would be to adopt a club and farm our fringe players out to them and influence how they are coached and play. Depending on which way you look at it, you can call it B Team, Reserves, targeted & consolidated loaning or feeder club. But we have our players all playing together in the competitive league football system. Not behind closed doors on a training pitch at Finch Farm.

And it wouldn't just be young players, although they would likely make up the majority. There would be other squad players in the mix too. See above.

But ultimately, they're playing league football and which ever way you look at it, representing Everton with a view to progressing to the senior team.