Ellis Simms signs new Everton contract

Interesting reference to his relationship with the manager.

In an ideal world I'd like to see him given an opportunity ahead of Rondon and do really well. Then become first option off the bench or ready to stand in for injuries. He's at an age where he could possibly kick on given the chance.

I still see Rafa preferring his non-jumping Salomon to giving Ellis much of the runout he must be desperate for.

But that's the way with youngsters, init? You mustn't play 'em too much or you'll burn 'em out. When the only thing they want to do is play, and play well.

That's why our Wayne was shot at 30... or not, as Moyes deliberately held him back.

Can he be any worse than Rondon?

No good just signing him in, get him on the bench before the wasters and if possible get him on.

I'd like to see him introduced once he's fit. Or will the club send him on loan again? Either way, it feels like he's ready for competitive football. What is the latest on Calvert-Lewin?

Looks like we have another Garbutt on our hands.

Yet another reason why Unsworth, Kenwright and that lot shouldn't be anywhere near the club.

Play him.

Calvert-Lewin and Davies are the only remaining players from their group – assuming Kenny moves, on as seems likely. Pennington, Dowell, Connolly et al didn't make the grade, despite playing international level. A number have appeared to then slide back to U23, loans and eventually release.

I would love to see him and Dobbin do well at the senior level. Anything better than Tosun or Rondon or Niasse would be like attaining heaven for us long-suffering Blues.

Great to know that Rafa and Marcel see enough potential in the young man to keep him. Can't wait to see him play. Hopefully this weekend in place of Rondon.

Hope he gets some game time in the coming weeks, he can't be much worse than some who have donned the first-team shirt in recent times.

He may make a few cup appearances... but that will be it.

I have a better idea, send Rondon to Blackpool in January instead.

He could train on the beach with the other Donkeys.

That next loan is critical because he's often a slow starter when he steps up a level, and will need time to acclimatise.

He has to be a better choice than Rondon, for fuck's sake!

We have Calvert-Lewin back soon, what happens if he breaks down again, no Kean, no Simms, just Rondon as back up.

Nevermind Rooney, he was the best we never had.

Nkounkou has been loaned out to become a better player long term.

Simms very likely needs to be loaned out for the same reason.

What a joke the whole Kean thing has been. He surely would have played this season. To be replaced by Rondon... who I can't believe has been so bad. He's had enough time to regain fitness. I thought he looked a bit better against Man U but that didn't last.

I saw Duncan Ferguson's testimonial game and he was slow... but still more mobile. We must have signed him purely on the word of our manager.

As for Simms, we have to wish him well, hope the club know what they are doing. Hope he gets some minutes. At worst, we either sell him for £2M or loan him to get his wages off the bill... a grand Brands tactic. Or he scores goals and we all become dancers.

Kean didn't want to be here, and we're not paying him, Juventus is. And they're paying us €7 million for the loan and up to €31 million to buy him at the end of next season. So fuck off to him as far as I'm concerned.

Plus he's been mostly a sub for them, even before he missed the last five games due to "muscle fatigue", which I didn't know was even possible for a 21-year-old who has only played 300 minutes this season.

We all have many, many regrets about Roadblock Rondon, but Moise Kean shouldn't be one of them.

Great idea regarding Rondon, think he would look good at Blackpool beach with the other donkeys.

He is Shite! One of our worst ever signings and looks like an over-40s player.

Wonder if we are getting the €7M from them but paying that back to them as we likely owe them still for the initial transfer fee?? If you know what l mean.

I just wish we would give Ellis and the rest of these promising young lads a bit more encouragement that they are in the plans for the future, and get a few cameo roles in matches, not just warming the bench with little or no chance of being involved.

It's all very well saying they don't want to risk them too early etc, but the fact is they know if they are not being valued they will vote with their feet and not sign a new contract, if offered that is!

Is Brands going to do another Nkounkou, and leave us down to the bare bones again?

The Premier League might be faster – but it is no tougher than the amateur leagues.

Young players have to be properly blooded at some time; otherwise, we will still be lending them out as they approach their 30s.

The problem it seems is that, such is the fear of putting your Premier League status at risk, most managers will not take the risk of playing any players, other than players who already have extensive Premier League experience.

We then get to the "chicken and egg" scenario – which is where it seems we are now, at Everton.

Hopefully, Gordon's continued improvement game, by game, can light the way.

Nkounkou has played in all eight games since joining Standard Liege, starting seven. He has gone the full 90 in his last four games, all at left-back, all draws. No goals or assists, but he's certainly getting lots of minutes.

The club itself is having a miserable season, currently sitting 14th. Haven't won a game since September.

Time we gave him some Premier League match time!

However, what should be noted is that Simms is 2 years younger than Coleman returning from Blackpool. If Seamus could play second fiddle to Hibbert for a couple of seasons, surely Simms could follow the same development under Calvert-Lewin?

As Danny O'Neill has touched on, he obviously has an interesting relationship with Rafa, so maybe if he hadn't missed pre-season with injury, he could have seen minutes on the pitch ahead of Dobbin and Rondon, and there wouldn't be speculation of a loan in January.

Good post. I also suspect they're taking into account the injuries he's had the last two seasons and realizing his development has stalled a bit just from being unable to play.

Like Derek Knox, I'd love to see him do well and had high hopes when he moved up to the U23s. Hopefully he can fulfill his destiny and take his father's place alongside the Emperor … waitm wrong thread! But let's hope he's another Coleman or Osman and not another Garbutt or Barlow.

The kid is still getting way more first-division minutes there than he would have here, and that could pay huge dividends next season.

As they say, hindsight is a great thing!!

And whilst my initial post advocated towards him staying at the club, here's food for thought.

Andy Cole, Kane, Lukaku (direct comparisons) and Beckham (sure why not) all had loans away from their parent clubs at the age of 20. Don't think anyone could really argue that their careers suffered from the experience. Obviously ToffeeWeb excluded.

Either way, next season should be his goal to fully establish himself as a first teamer.

First loan season for Mount was with Vitesse Arnhem in the Netherlands. To Mike's points about Nkounkou; playing regular competitive football in decent leagues (same region funnily enough) that let you play. And a continental experience can do no harm for a young player's experience and development. Especially places like Holland and Belgium.

Separate one thinking of those 2 leagues, where did the idea of them joining to form a joint Benelux League get to? That actually wouldn't be too bad a standard. Ajax, PSV Eindhoven, Feyernood, Anderlecht, Club Brugge (Dutch spelling) and Standard Liege. Some famous and fairly decent-sized clubs that could form the basis of a pretty good league.

I'm the same, and with hindsight in mind, I'd liked Nkounkou to have stayed this season. But I like to think that the original intent was to manage his career with a view to him coming back to Everton more experienced, fitter and stronger.

I don't think Simms will go out on loan and don't want him to based on what I'm hearing from those who have watched him. Especially given our injury plight and thin squad.

But it just wouldn't surprise me. Either way, he can't go back into the U23s if he's got the potential people are talking about and now that he's had a taste of competitive league football. I suppose we have to let the managers and coaches decide whether he's ready.

It's all good and well mentioning those players that went on loan but they all were playing for teams at the top of the Premier League who have won it with massive squads. We do not have that luxury, so his experience should be with us. Well, that's my opinion.

It's fine for lower league clubs to loan players from other lower league clubs as it helps them to survive, but no Premier League club should have to bring in players on loan, unless there are exceptional circumstances, and no single Premier League club should be able to loan out more than two or three players during a season.

That sort of rule, might stop Chelsea (and others) from stockpiling players and using other academies to nurture future Chelsea stars and it might also sharpen the focus of clubs like Everton to ensure that there are fewer players seeing their careers flat-lining.

Some people suggested it was because he was a big lad for his age and could bully other youngsters but they can't make that claim at Blackpool where he stood out under Neil Critchley who is desperate to get him back there again.

I think Brands should be planning to have Simms, Dobbin and Whitaker developing as a first-team squad front 3 in the next couple of years. Just add them to Gordon and Calvert-Lewin and what a goalscoring threat we would have in the squad.

We haven't benefitted too much from the outgoing loan system. I can't think of anybody recently beyond Seamus who went out and then came back and turned into a top player.

He looks so much more dangerous running down the left flank, taking defenders on, and putting in some decent crosses. And he linked up really well when he played alongside Gordon.

Brian, I agree with you and I think he's another prospect that after he comes back from his loan period, he'll be in the first-team squad next season.

Certainly in his younger years. As he matures, maybe as he becomes more of an out-and-out left-back. I seem to remember Seamus evolving in a similar manner.

I'm not sure I'll explain this very well, but sometimes with players like this, you lose their effectiveness if you have them too far up as an out-and-out left midfielder in a 4-man midfield or the 3. They don't have as much space to run into. Their game is better coming from a deeper position as an attacking, overlapping full-back or as a wingback.

But I can see what you're saying about him.

But his defensive aspects left a lot to be desired. Hope he hasn't got to liking those Belgian Chocolates too much, and is looking forward to returning to us with a genuine claim.

Instinctively, I agree with Danny that his attack capabilities will be enhanced by starting further back, but I'm not basing that on any particular knowledge.

Once Calvert-Lewin is back fit, Simms will not be forcing him out of the team and you have to think that the club will wish to reinforce our forward options with experience and hopefully proven quality either in January or the summer thereafter.

I don't see Simms getting in. The guy is 20 and will be 23 at the conclusion of this contract.

He's signed for the money and unfortunately that, like others before him such as Pennington and Garbutt, tells me all I need to know about his character.

He should've told Everton where to put their contract: "Play me or I'm off in the summer."

He should've backed himself to find a club, possibly in the Championship, where he can go and start playing football.

If he were to leave and start playing, then he could play the best part of 150 games between now and the end of what this Everton contract will be. Instead, he will reach 23 having played less than a tenth of that amount of games at Everton Football Club.

He will also show enough promise for us to use him in the Premier League – probably as back-up rather than first choice. Nevertheless, that still serves a purpose and avoids stopgaps like Rondon.

Otherwise, he would have left for free... which seems daft.

I think I agree wholeheartedly.

I agree with you, the injuries to Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison plus the unfit condition on Rondon in recent weeks represented a wonderful opportunity to see how and if Ellis Simms could step up to the challenge of Premier League football.

However, you give the false impression that the manager completely (maliciously, even..?) overlooked him and 'didn't give him a sniff of an opportunity.'

The truth is a tad more prosaic. Ellis Simms was injured, as in, unfit and unavailable to play.

To add as you do that Simms 'has signed for the money and unfortunately that, like others before him, such as Pennington and Garbutt, tells me all I need to know about his character' is an exceedingly sweeping assumption by you.

Your observation doesn't tell us 'all we need to know about [Ellis Simms's] character'at all. But I rather fancy it gives us a wee insight into your own.

I'd agree with most of your comments on Tommy's post. I did have to correct his maths – Simms will be 23½ at the end of his new contract not 24 as Tommy originally wrote.

But you imply Simms wasn't fit enough to be selected by the manager. Which begs the age-old question: So what is he doing on the bench, then?

I hate seeing young players put on for the ridiculous 5 minutes at the end, which seems to be Rafa's way of doing things, but in his case it would at least have given him his senior debut and let them see perhaps how robust his recovery had been.

The unfortunate thing seems to be that he was sat on the bench unused for three games, but then he must have broken down again in training as he has not reappeared there for the last five games.

Let's hope he really is fit now and that Rafa will give him his debut and a decent amount of playing time.

Ellis Simms - Current Season

He missed our opening five fixtures in all competitions as he continued his recovery from the injury picked up on loan at Blackpool.

He has appeared as an unused sub on the Everton bench three times all season, all within a single week. Away to Villa on 18 September, the mid-week League Cup defeat to QPR on the 21st then on the 25th, home to Norwich back in the PL.

Rafa commented publicly at the time that he told Ellis explicitly NOT to expect to get on as he wasn't match fit, that he was part of the match day squad for the experience.

Benitez on Simms

Ellis disappeared from the weekly training session videos the club posts, a clear indicator that he was training apart with an injury. He has only reappeared again in the last two weeks, confirming that he picked up a knee injury that excluded him from being selected.

Absolutely nothing to see here. Just unfortunate circumstances and timing as far as Ellis is concerned.

Which it does. And how I've formed my own opinion. To which I'm entitled. Your opinion is different from mine. Don't attempt to twist my words to suit your own perspective as I never said his actions inform others' opinions.

As for him being injured. He made the squad, ahead in some instances of others who were fit and didn't make the squad. If he was there and completely unavailable to play, then why was he running around the pitch during warm-ups and what on earth was he doing with shin pads on at one point?

As for comparisons with Brewster and any others such as Solanke, the pedigree of Simms at international youth level, I'm afraid, is not comparable to Solanke and Brewster. Solanke also had played a good amount of football within top level Dutch football and Brewster had a very successful loan in a strong Swansea team in the Championship.

Although Simms showed promise on Loan at League Two level last season, again the comparisons do not quite reconcile.

Nobody is denying you the right to hold or express an opinion. Your opinion is being questioned, to which people are also 'entitled' to do.

I rather think it's you doing the 'twisting of words'.

I was very explicit in quoting your own words verbatim, namely: that Simms 'has signed for the money and unfortunately that, like others before him, such as Pennington and Garbutt, tells me all I need to know about his character' is IMO - as I originally wrote - an exceedingly sweeping assumption by you.

It presumes you know for a fact that:

1) His primary, even singular, motivation to sign a contract extension was money. There are a whole list of alternative reasons as to why he has signed.

2) On such a flimsy presumption you deem yourself a fit and proper judge to determine the character of a man that, beyond knowing he plays for Everton, you know Porthcrawl about.

Your single post @ 56, together with your follow up post @ 63, gives me a far greater body of evidence to offer the opinion I did about you, Tommy, than the exceedingly superficial judgement you make about Ellis Simms, based on... nothing. Nothing at all.

‘Your observation doesn't tell us 'all we need to know about [Ellis Simms's] character'at all.'

I didn't say that my observation about what his actions make me feel inform the opinion of anybody else. At no point did I say this. This is my own opinion and one that I have not tried to project on anybody else.

My assessment may be superficial to you. But it's my opinion. And my own assessment. The fact he's put pen to paper on this, as I originally stated, tells me everything I need to know about his character.

I'd like to be wrong. Maybe he backs himself and has the ability to make a breakthrough. Or maybe he'll be at the club until his near mid-20s having played hardly any football and his career as good as done.

I expect, as the going rate tends to be around £8-10k a week, that this will be his wage. I believe Pennington was on more like £16k. However, going by the lower rate, this will mean after tax he will trouser the best part of £750k by the time he is 23. Maybe that is the incentive and, in reality, he doesn't really back himself as he knows a League One or Championship club may only go for a 2-year deal on the same money. After which point, if he's failed, he'll never earn another contract like that again.

So, a young footballer who is offered a contract extension which he then signs, in your eyes, Tommy, makes him a dubious character, destined for failure as he cruises on easy street.

Got it.

"He's signed for the money and unfortunately that, like others before him such as Pennington and Garbutt, tells me all I need to know about his character."

I think that's a bit harsh on Pennington. He was in the squad and played a fair few games before he signed a new deal. But the managerial merry-go-round and injuries did for him. He never struck me as a chancer just trying to fill his pockets.

Do you think he's on £16k a week at Shrewsbury? Pennington must've thought he'd won the lottery when he was offered that deal.

As for Jay @66. Pleased you've finally grasped my very concise and clear original message. Rather than imagining I had told others what I think that they should think.

You obviously feel different to me, Jay. Please be as bold as to outline your opinion on how Simms's contract period with Everton FC will play out.

I've given you mine and for some reason you really don't like it.

Honestly, for a time, his trajectory reminded me of Richard Dunne and Shane Duffy. Two players who did "make it" in the Premier League – albeit one after he left Everton. But obviously that's not how it turned out for Pennington.

Likewise, the footballers are professional people who, if they wish, can demand more than the club is prepared to pay and risk being out of contract or they can be sold on for a fee if the club deems it prudent to do so.

Some will accept the terms and conditions that the club offers, because they are happy to be with the club, and signing a new contract gives a certain amount of stability for their career at Everton FC.

I can't for the life of me see how any of the above offers any particular insight into a person's character – good or bad.

Whether offering an extension to a particular player is a wise or foolish move by the club... only time will tell.

You really think a young, 20-year-old striker is signing a contract because he doesn't think he has the ability to make it and will ultimately fail, so he's milking what he can? That's just absurd.

Most of these young lads, like any young footballer, believes they are good enough, believes they are gonna make it. If they didn't, they'd have failed before they even turned 15. Most young players believe they are better than they are.

I'm sure Ellis very much believes that, if given the chance, he'll score 30 a season in the Premier League and will lead England out to World Cup glory in 2026. Because he's a young lad. Don't let your cynicism make you think all young players are just as cynical.

And everything he's done so far wouldn't suggest he shouldn't believe in himself. Everytime he's stepped up, after a small adjustment period, he has managed to find his rhythm and score goals.

But if you think wasting a tiny amount of money (in football terms) on a potential young striker is a waste of money, then that's your issue. Just remember we paid £35 million and probably £100k a week for Iwobi.

Pennington having a long contract has in no way damaged Everton as a football club. Garbutt's failure in no way damaged us in the long term.

And also, always remember that one of the best Premier League strikers of the last 10 years didn't play a game in the Premier League until he was 27 and was playing in lord knows what division when he was 23.

Interesting point, only it gives me flashbacks to people saying the same about Garbutt. I remember when he was back as an overage player in the U23s and Unsworth saying they were working on his defending... 10 years after he signed as a defender.

Or have I got that wrong? Did Everton benefit? Did Pennington go from strength to strength?

Ultimately, were we correct to give him that contract and was he correct in accepting it? (for anything other than financial gain - not a criticism, he has every right to make as much money as he can, good luck to him, and others).

Point being, Simms signing this deal is exactly the same scenario.

I get your point. We have held on to many for far too long when it's obvious they won't make it. But, as Robert points out, he could be someone we sell for a decent fee if he doesn't make it at Everton.

Him apart, would I give new deals to the others coming up in June? No.

I'd be of the opinion that this was not Simms's best opportunity to breakthrough, as I think he would have been destined to fail if he had played.

When returning from injury, it takes regular pros roughly 3/4/5 games to get match fit and up to the tempo and rigors of the Premier League. Simms with absolutely no Premier League experience and having missed the most important part of any player's season, pre-season, would have been expected to lead the line and more importantly score goals against seasoned international professionals regardless of the duration of time he'd spend on the pitch.

Spurs, Man Utd, Wolves, West Ham and even Watford, all boast international or former internationals playing in the centre of their defence. What type of opportunity would it really have been for a Premier League rank amateur returning from injury? Bearing in mind Rondon didn't train for the roughly the same amount of time, but more importantly wasn't injured and still looks well off the pace.

I also think there is more to being part of the matchday squad than getting minutes on the pitch for a young player trying to make the breakthrough. Seeing how the players he aspires to be, prepare, focus, conduct themselves and simply just approach games is all part of his development. Hearing Rafa barking instructions from the sideline whilst seeing the players reactions, would surely give him greater clarity of the expectations of him when he finally does get onto the pitch.

So do you think, once Calvert-Lewin is fit, Richarlison remains fit and Rondon is available to play, that Simms will get an opportunity?

And that the availability of him being able to do that is more prevalent than when Calvert-Lewin, Richarlison were injured and Rondon had not long landed on English soil?

You may speculate about how injured he was to suit your own point. But the fact remains that he was in the matchday squad a number of times and therefore available to be selected.

If Simms is yet again not trusted before Rondon, then it says all we need to know about Benitez. He can't or won't get past his pride or ego to realise the fella he bought 3 times is past it and he doesn't trust the youth.

Same with Onyango and maybe even Dobbin and Warrington – can't be any worse than the perennial failures like Gomes, Sigurdsson and Davies. (Sorry, Tom, but time to be ruthless!)

Why do you think they're better than what we have on the pitch right now? What have you seen that makes you believe Benitez should choose them?

Yes, it might say something about Benitez that he keeps rolling Rondon out there. But it might also say something about who else he has available.

And by the way, one of the "perennial failures" you mentioned put up 31 goals and 25 assists in 156 appearances. Maybe not spectacular, but I don't think he belongs in the same category with the other two you mentioned.

It's all very well saying our U23s couldn't be worse than some disappointing first teamers, but actually they could very much be worse.

Davies, were he to drop back to the U23s now, would probably run the show at that level. It's really not a great standard of football.

Blackpool was a big step up for Simms and he worked hard and got into a good rythym by the end of his loan. The Premier League is a big step up from third tier football.

As much as I like some of these U23 players, they've all been completely outshone by Branthwaite when I've seen them play.

That's the point; not many people have seen these lads play but they won't if the manager is not brave enough to play them. I would never put a young player on the bench in the Premier League just for the experience. It just takes away a starting place for a player who could influence a game.

Rafa has instructions to not get relegated and that's the reason why he won't start any you named. You explain to me how it was okay for Rafa to start a player who has been injured (proper serious career threatening injuries) for 2 years. Hadn't played any competitive games in that time – not a single Under-23 game. But it's okay to not to start Simms because of injury. Rafa is taking the piss with his talking.

I have to disagree with you on Sigurdsson. He's been an integral part of our team since he signed and I suspect his goals have kept us closer to the top end of the table over the last few seasons.

Let's be honest: he must be our top scoring midfielder. All his haters can say whatever they like but they can't take his goal count away.

Explain to us all why Rafa played Gbamin, please.

But if you don't think there are players who ‘can't be any worse' then you mustn't have been watching Everton Football Club for very long.

As hopeless as Rondon appears to be, I have seen strikers just as bad as Rondon play for this club, some even have been academy prospects just like Simms.

Madar, Spencer, Branch, Jevons, Chadwick, Angell, Barlow, Bakayoko all spring to mind immediately.

He no doubt believes in himself and let's hope he does because as a striker if he doesn't then he is in trouble. He looks a natural scorer to me and let's hope he earns his chance to play for the first team.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can expect him to sign his contract and not be paid?

Agree with comments about us not trying to give Simms minutes whilst not fit, it would damage his confidence. Now he has signed and is increasing fitness, we should be trying to give him game time.

I do not agree Rondon would offer more, not from what I've seen! Give the kids a chance! If we are skint, then Gordon, Simms and Branthwaite should be around the first team as much as possible.

I think it would be wiser, for a lot of fans, to heed your post about putting young untried lads straight into the first team and expecting them to improve the team, especially now that the team has three experienced players missing.

For this notion you repeatedly project that all opinions are valid and cannot be deemed ‘wrong'.

No they aren't. Yes they can.

People post every second on social media believing their opinions are watertight and sacrosanct, taking umbrage at any challenge to them as you frequently do when others question your own expressed opinions.

All your comments in this thread are founded on one very flawed premise. Namely:

‘Ellis Simms has signed a job contract with Everton. This is proof positive that he is a money-grabbing mercenary of flawed character, destined to failure.'

Now if you had based your opinion on what you've seen of his football ability, such an observation might have some validity. But you don't. You call into question his very character and predict his future path in football based on…a young apprentice signing a contract extension.

Putting aside your all-knowing omniscience and all-seeing prescience, such a superficial judgement call would be as well-founded if you had said he is of flawed character ‘cos he buttons his shirt from bottom to top instead of vice-versa, or he always puts his right shoe on before his left shoe'.

Nonsensical non-sequiturs.

As such, your opinion is invalid because you have failed to validate it.

You have not been explicit at all in clarifying the ‘reasoning' you applied to conclude that he is a money-grabbing mercenary, destined for failure.

As for your other implication – that the manager has failed to give him ‘a sniff of a chance' – again, all the evidence is there as to why this has been the case.

The season started 15 weeks ago. Simms missed the opening 7 weeks of the season recovering from the injury picked up at Blackpool. He was selected on the bench for 3 games in one single week in mid-September. He subsequently picked up another injury which means he again has been unavailable for selection for the last 7 weeks. Only in the last two weeks has he reappeared in the team training videos the club posts each week.

As for your invitation to me to outline my opinion on how Simms's contract with Everton will play out, why on earth would I want to do that? His signing of his extended contract doesn't angst me as it evidently does you and I make no claims about possessing the omniscient and prescience powers you presume to have.

I'll stand by my opinion about your flawed original premise and opinion, ta very much, Tommy.

It is trite. Superficial. Absurd.

Can you answer a question then, Jay:

Was the £16k a week contract that Matthew Pennington was offered and signed of any benefit to Everton Football Club or the career of Matthew Pennington?

Sigurdsson may be the best of an over-priced over-hyped bunch. For what we paid, he's been very hit and miss and dictated our very slow (and unfit) style of play. The modern game has no room for his type – especially the Top 4, where we want to be. Just an opinion. Coyb

It has nothing - absolutely ZERO - to do with the original flawed premise you offer, viz-a-viz that Ellis Simms signing a contract extension is proof positive in your eyes of a dubious character, a money-grabbing mercernary, lacking ambition, destined for failure.

Answer me this question, Tommy.

Is your premise intended to be applied universally? To all people? In all walks of life? That if you sign a work contract you are all of the above that you charge Ellis Simms with?

If not, why do you apply such a sweeping superficial judgement to the 20-year-old Ellis Simms alone?

Will you answer this one?

How do you envisage the remainder of his contracted time at Everton going? Will he be a success?

Is it a wise investment?

I won't facilitate your face-saving attempts to deflect from the single flawed premise I (and others) have challenged and the unrelated 'connections' which you continue to chase in the labyrinth of the rabbit hole you have fallen into.

- Likely to go on loan in January to Championship.

- If he scores goals or looks the part, then there's the option to sell or retain a 20- or 21-year-old.

- If he does not score goals or look the part, then he'll be on loan again to get more time to acclimatise to that level.

- If he scores goals and looks the part, we have the option to sell or retain a 21- or 22-year-old.

- If he flops, then it's back on loan or sale at a modest fee

This gives us a decent chance of having a good squad-level striker at least or a decent fee.

The alternative sees him leaving for nothing at the end of the season – which seems daft if it soon transpires this improving upward trajectory player who the club have been developing carefully since we brought him in from Man City is good enough for the Premier League.

Banker gets offered promotion to Director and accepts new offer. For the money or the career progression? Probably both. Don't we and wouldn't we all do the same in our walks of life?

He's a professional footballer who has just been offered promotion, career progression and, yes, a pay rise. Why wouldn't he accept it?

But I doubt very much he has just signed for the money. He will be motivated to challenge and play alongside Calvert-Lewin. We should be enthused at having 2 still relatively young strikers with potential to get better and learn from each other.

Back to the football. He'll get his chance, but I'd wager most on here scrambling for him to play haven't seen him play. I've seen him play once and there wasn't enough to make a judgement as it was a poor quality mini-derby, so I don't know enough about him, but enough who have rate him. Totally different level though.

Maybe the manager is managing the kid's career. I understand that a lot are frustrated with Rondon and would take anything over him, including an untried player. The manager doesn't have to manage his career as it's pretty much done, so why ruin a young player just starting out by playing him not fully fit? Like I say, bigger picture, he's going to get his chance.

Thank you for answering the question though.

He hasn't played much football for a guy who'll be 21 in January.

He needs a productive loan move in January that's for sure as he certainly won't be playing any games for Everton.

If that doesn't happen for him, or he has a largely unproductive loan spell like Anthony Gordon last season, then what happens then.

The loan pathways system is not always assured success.

Simms should've left the club permanently in January, and gone to play football somewhere.

All the indicators are there for me of another ‘let's just keep him just in case'. It's abysmal talent management by Everton. Really insecure and a complete lack of conviction.

As stated, let him go and build in buy-back options into the deal. It's what better and more successful clubs than ours do.

It probably originated with me but I don't think it's as crass as that wording sounds.

I'm disappointed in another young player who's favoured a mid-term lucrative contract with Everton with absolutely no guarantees of ever getting first-team football. Ahead of him moving, probably for a lesser wage or lesser years, to a team in the bottom half of the Championship or any League One team for guaranteed first-team football.

I recall listening to Stuart "Psycho" Pearce a few years ago when he blew a fuse talking about grown men being employed to carry team and personal kit for teenagers getting onto a club coach for an away game. He called it a very poor preparation for life, never mind football, and he was right.

Too much, too soon, too easy seems to engulf many young players, as the admirable Tony Abrahams alludes to, so I can definitely see where you're coming from, and why.

Other fans seek some sort of self-perceived superiority for their own opinions of course, even if they are trite, superficial and absurd. Such is life on a forum built on opinion.

All the best.

I'd like to see more focus on integrating Gordon and Branthwaite into the first team – and maybe we're just about there with the former. But Branthwaite should be prioritised now ahead of Holgate.

It would be a very good result if Onyango, Dobbin and maybe Warrington are also getting first-team minutes by the end of the season too.

Alan #76 and Robert #80, good common sense.

And Robert #101, agreed re Branthwaite and Holgate.

Bobby #81, I highly doubt that "Rafa has instructions to not get relegated" -- that would be a really bizarre thing to tell a manager before the season started -- or that he lacks bravery for that reason. He wants to win games, and he's going to play the players he thinks give him the best chance to do that. Which are not necessarily the players you or I think will do that.

As to your question at #83, Gbamin was a proven, professional player before the injuries, and he has spent the past two years working to come back. Rafa gave him a start because he thought he was ready, and because he really did not have many other options. It didn't go well, but I doubt he will write Gbamin off.

I agree Don. But the precedent has been set unfortunately and that's the reality of where we are now.

There will be exceptional cases with exceptional teenagers who can have the ability to demand what they want. Rooney at 16 being an obvious example.

But the club seem terrified on losing players for free who go on to become something somewhere else.

Well that's football. Get over it. If a player over the age of 19 has no real prospect of challenging for a first team place within 12 months then move them on. For the sake of the players. They need to go and play football.

As by the time they are 22-24 and leaving everton, they have played hardly any football. Whereas players emerging up the leagues with 150 games + under their belt are far more likely to go on and have a successful career.

I can't think of many, if any academy produced player that has left the club in the last 15 years who has gone on to any kind of level where he'd be considered an improvement on any of our starting XIs in that time.

For that, he needs to be under a decent contract. You expected him to turn it down, so he could negotiate with another club in January and leave then (for a fee that Everton would have to agree) or leave in the summer for nothing?

I'm sorry but he would have been utterly stupid to do that at this critical stage of his career. The alternative motivations you invoke are of course complete nonsense, as Jay has amply demonstrated.

You say "the club seem terrified of losing players for free who go on to become something somewhere else." Of course it's not an ideal outcome... but "terrified"??? Have you any idea of the number of young players the club releases at the end of each season because they are not good enough?

The proof of that approach, ironically is to be found in your last paragraph:

"I can't think of many, if any academy produced player that has left the club in the last 15 years who has gone on to any kind of level where he'd be considered an improvement on any of our starting XIs in that time."

Of course you can't. If you could, it would be an additional bullet to shoot at the non-performing Academy. But at least in this respect, they appear to be doing their job... or are they?

The whole Academy argument hinges on a belief that (a) we are getting players in who are good enough to become Premier League superstars; but (b) the Academy is failing in its job of developing those players to become Premier League superstars because none are being produced.

If you believe all the players who come in have the potential, then all the players we release are proof of the Academy's failure.

Whereas a player like Simms – who appears to be on the verge of getting playing time in the Premier League – must count in that case as one of the Academy's very, very rare successes.

And yet you expected him to turn down his new contract?

This season, the manager is in a position, through a lack of funds, to start looking at some of the younger players, and as Simms has been injured for most of the time, they have offered him a new contract to keep him at the club that gives the manager time to see him more in more competitive games.

All clubs give young players contracts as most are not outstanding at 16 or 17 years old but develop later, both in growth and in fitness. I think it is unfair criticizing young players until they have been given a chance to prove themselves at a higher level.

There is always a risk when a young player goes out on loan that he will not fit in with the coach, see Anthony Gordon's experience at Preston North End or Virginia's at Reading. That risk does not exist if Ellis goes back to Blackpool. The only way that Critchley leaves is if he is head-hunted by a Premier League team.

I hope that Ellis goes back to the Seasiders for the second half of the season. He will be well coached and will have to compete with Lavery and Yates for the starting position and he may have the fun of playing in a team that is in a promotion race again.

"Banker gets offered promotion to Director and accepts new offer. For the money or the career progression? Probably both. Don't we and wouldn't we all do the same in our walks of life?"

That's my profession and to Tommy's point, I have frequently quit my job when offered promotions and taken lesser paying, worse jobs at other institutions. It's a recipe for success... (?)

Is a £500k a year directorship for 3 years, in a role where you'll gain no experience, skills or reputation enhancement. You become surplus to requirements and 3 years in you're gone. You have no reputation because you've achieved nothing. Meanwhile other directors from lesser companies are being headhunted - for the role you've just had the bullet from.

You step into joblessness with a 3 year black hole in your CV.

Or a lesser company gives you £300k a year, but for 2 years. However, with an exciting project that you will lead on and you'll be the figurehead of the organisation. You'll gain invaluable and unenviable experience testing your abilities regularly and in varied and diverse environments.

After 2 years you've shown your industry what you can do. You're proven. Your current employer wishes to incentivise you with better and more long term contracts. They are also in competition with other better organisations who also want to offer you these things.

Just trying to adjust your analogy. I'm not a banker, you obviously are.

Thanks for your interpretation of the progression (or lack of it) for Simms so far this season.

You say there was talk of a knee injury that kept him out until the last 2 weeks. I don't see that anywhere but something seems to have cut short his stints on the bench, stopping him from soaking up that first-team atmosphere and savouring the lampost impressions provided Rondon since the end of September. Rather ironic that "movement" is what Rafa feels Simms still needs to work on before he can be risked, don't you think?

What I do see reference to is an ankle injury. Is that what's been keeping him out?

'Just simple questions, Jay. I can't see why you won't answer them.'

You are a very inattentive reader, Tommy.

I acknowledged your questions in my posts @ 92 and 94, explaining why I wouldn't answer them.

You are the one who has totally failed to answer, or even acknowledge, the very incisive questions I put to you @ 94.

Those questions are pertinent to the discussion (though I can understand why you might find them impertinent and so avoid them). Your questions are not.

I think my questions to you are pertinent. And yours to me, not.

I think you're right in just about everything you say.

No-one knows for sure and, if Calvert-Lewin leaves, he [Simms] might morph into a world-beater... but he's been here since 2017 and his path has the familiar ring of others coining in whilst contributing very little. I, like others (despite someone claiming otherwise) share your doubts.

It's no surprise to me that you are unwilling, unable (or both) to validate the false premise your opinion is based upon that this entire exchange has been about.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin may not be able to improve his game or hold down a regular place at a Champions League club if he was ever to leave Everton. But here right now, he is the biggest miss to our team, and the results for Everton since he has been out, prove that to be the case.

DCL is far from perfect, in fact, he's fairly ordinary in some aspects of his game, but to say the lad has contributed very little to Everton FC is more than a tad disingenuous.

I actually do think Simms will have a better opportunity when all the lads are fit, but not this season, next season. But you'll have to bear with me as I explain.

I refer you to my post 39 re Coleman and will use that analogy once again. I see the time that Simms spent at Blackpool last season equivalent to the time Seamus played for Sligo as the leagues are of the same standard. Only difference being, Seamus played a staggering 46 games more than Simms before moving to Everton.

At this point Seamus, is further on in his development to being a pro and after playing a handful of games for the first team, he was shipped out on loan to Blackpool in the Championship, with the rest writing itself.

If Simms was to go back on loan to Blackpool in the Championship for the remainder of this season I think it could be argued he would be better equipped to tackle a fully fit DCL and the lads than he was this season returning from injury.

Which now leads to a couple of questions of my own. Can you name 3 strikers (ideally first ones that spring straight to mind) who arrived to the Premier League from the third tier and immediately scored goals? That would be a good gauge as to the standard Simms should be playing at right now, whilst also giving people on here a clear picture of the level you currently think Simms is at to be available from the bench.

Lastly, would you also class Seamus as a money grabbing mercenary, as he did pretty much the exact same thing as Simms?

You point out yourself that Seamus had played a lot of games in the league of Ireland before getting his move to England.

Had Simms played an equivalent amount of games by the time he was 20 then I think more accurate comparisons could be drawn.

You can apply this with the likes of:

Pennington, Garbutt, Feeney, Foulds, Sambou, Williams, Charsley, Dyson, Grant, McAleny, Duffus who've all left the club in the last 5 years – in their 20s, some in their mid-20s.

And for this group, including Simms they'd hardly played a first-team competitive game at any level and in numerous cases, by the age of 20 they hadn't played a single game, not one, at and competitive first team level.

Now I'm not saying that every player should be a superstar by the age of 20, but I'd be interested to see the statistics on international footballers (which is the level we want in our first team) who by the age of 20 have played less than 10 first-team football games at any level. My suspicion is that it would be a very low percentage.

Yet here's Everton thinking that they can create a system that operates outside of this, regularly handing contracts to players that will take them into their mid-20s.

They're then released into the Football League wilderness with a few loan spells at various levels under their belt for experience.

Of those players listed above, it's no surprise to me that none of them really seem to be having the career that the people who handed these contracts out at Everton must have envisaged them having at the point they offered the contract.

Jay and others obviously see merit in attempting to develop players with absolutely no first-team football experience from ages 20-24 with no prospect of playing for the Everton first-team any time soon. Good luck to you all.

@105 Michael. - terrified. I remember many people on TW being up in arms at losing Antonee Robinson and Ademola Lookman. Now – whilst these are 2 of the more successful products that we have developed in recent years – I supported their moving on, and I still believe we were absolutely right to sell. As I supported the loan of Niels Nkounkou this season when many on TW were dead against it.

The point being – these players need to go and play football in order to develop.

HELLO!! The "he" referred to is. Ellis, the subject of the discussion.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

No probs, so glad to hear it wasn't your poorly constructed powers of comprehension.

My constant reference to Seamus is because it is relevant. What you've overlooked is that he is two years Simms senior, so should have played more games.

But by any chance do you have answers to the two questions in my previous post?

This:

'Jay and others obviously see merit in attempting to develop players with absolutely no first-team football experience from ages 20-24 with no prospect of playing for the Everton first-team any time soon. Good luck to you all.'

Pure invention on your part. I have never made such an observation in my entire posting history on TW, never mind in this thread.

I and others have questioned the 'rational' in your original post way back @ 56, specifically one single paragraph:

'He's signed for the money and unfortunately that, like others before him such as Pennington and Garbutt, tells me all I need to know about his character.'

A trite, superficial and absurd judgement call.

You have steadfastly refused to engage with and respond to the many posts and posters who have questioned your 'rational'.

Rather, subsequently you have tried to baffle with babble, deflecting rather than reflecting on the challenges put to you, à la Vicky Pollard's 'yeah but, no but' rebuttals, going off on tangents which formed no part of your original post which is the basis of the criticism you are receiving.

So much bluster and blag, Tommy.

He's improved his finishing. He's improved his centre-forward's positional awareness (no more chasing corner flags). He's already strong in the air. He's already an athlete with an immense engine and reasonably quick.

What now? Maybe further improvement in his goal tally? Jump higher, run quicker? I doubt he'll ever develop the longer-range strikes the likes of Kane has in his back pocket, so I think we're fast approaching the finished Calvert-Lewin article. And that's not meant to be a negative. I can't wait to have him back. I hope Benitez was playing derby poker in his press conference yesterday.

I enjoy generating a dialogue on here with quite a few other contributors, where a sensible and reasoned interaction is the aim for those involved.

However Jay seems to spend a lot of time dissecting my contributions and instead of having opinions or contributions of his own, limits himself to acute criticism of each point I make.

I enjoy being challenged with other views and perspectives. It helps me to form my own and enables me to think differently to what my natural thought pattern bings me to.

I take exception to being personally attacked.

Ciao for now. COYB

You know I'm thick as fuck so you have to make it simple. 😉

You weren't "personally attacked". You were engaged by various posters after making a completely unjustified inference that Jay nailed you on.

There may be some merit to your underlying contention that young up-and-coming players need to be – and should be – playing football at the right levels. But the way you went about it with that ridiculous claim about Simms's character lost you all credibility.

A pity that you steadfastly refuse to re-examine your own statements and either justify or retract them. Instead, you kept throwing in other deflecting rubbish that only made it worse.

Enjoy your sabbatical.

"after making a completely unjustified inference that Jay nailed you on."

Utter bilge.

Unless you have clairvoyant powers to see how this pans out you cannot know if Tommy's opinion is right or wrong. He said it was his opinion laying out plainly he wasn't attempting to convert others. Not sure if the Brazilian guy is a relative of yours you do seem to indulge his tedious pestering.

Tommy @56 made this totally unjustifiable claim about Simms and his motives in signing his new Everton contract:

He's signed for the money and unfortunately that, like others before him such as Pennington and Garbutt, tells me all I need to know about his character.

See above for the rebuttal of this ridiculous claim.

Note: nothing to do with how his career pans out. That is not the issue here. It is about what Tommy infers regarding his character from the fact that he signed the contract.

Absolute nonsense only the future will decide if Tommy's opinion is correct.

If Ellis emulates those mentioned in the quote then his assertion is justified if not he isn't - only runes with impeccable predictive qualities can say at this juncture. But if you have a bag of 'em what are next weeks lottery numbers?

Sanctimonious crowing about a situation yet to play out is patently ludicrous.

We are talking about a player signing a contract offered to him by his club, and what Tommy claims that says about his character. Focus on that. Respond to that.

It's the claim that he signed for money and the inference that his intention is to follow in the footsteps of Pennington and Garbutt, and that somehow reflects his character. That is what is absolute nonsense from Tommy – and from you if you agree with him.

Again, see if you can focus. It's about the inferred motivations for signing his contract.

There's no prediction about anything panning out. It's about what the act of signing his contract says about his character.

See if you can focus on that.

For entertainment I'll play despite your odd analysis.

If Tommy is PRESENTLY wrong how do you know?

Are you privy to the Ellis inner sanctum and can conclusively report his thoughts and motivation? No you can't you are opining like Tommy

For all you know he rang his uncle Horatio whilst floating toy ships made from fifty quid notes in his customised spa and jacuzzi laughing down the phone "i'm hanging around here no matter what it's top dollar and I'm not fannying around the lower leagues" or similar verbiage.

Was it unreasonable to make the assumption he made without any concrete evidence? Most certainly.

Are you gonna get pulled on TW by making unsubstantiated detrimental (to the player) statements? Every time, I reckon.

I put it down to the languor of the International Break...... or Donald Trump.

Would it be pedantic to point out “pendants”?

"Tommy-Gate" wasn't to do with forecasts or predictions and opinions on whether the player will make it or not.

It was his insinuation that the young lad had signed for the money. Therefore a perceived slur on Simms's motives and character before he's kicked a senior ball for the club he has committed the next 3 years of his professional career to.

Now you can argue that itself is an opinion. But many found it harsh on the player and totally unfounded.

On the spirit of impartiality, a case for the defence.

Based on Tommy's response to me when I questioned why money had come into the conversation (not knowing who had introduced it, I just saw the debate flowing back and forward and put a generic post without looking).

I think Tommy's frustration is broader with the amount of money young players are on now. Fair point and that will resonate with many. My opinion: that's just the game now, like it or not. And we can't complain too much or we'd collectively be hypocritical. Us fans keep paying for highly priced tickets, expensive merchandise and Sky TV / BT Sports subscriptions that feed the monster.

If you, we, I are truly repulsed by it, there's a simple way to vote.

I'm sorry but Tommy being right or wrong has become the crux of the matter. Triumphalism is a nasty little trait, especially given the fact no-one knows the Ellis mindset now or how his signing will pan out in the future. It is indisputably wrong to claim the Tomster as wrong in such circumstances.

Furthermore, he gave an opinion – just as you have with "unsubstantiated detrimental". Now, you may be right, Ellis may be in a heap in the corner as we speak, but it's distinctly possible Ellis does not frequent TW or give a shit about fan opinion.

It doesn't make you definitively wrong but, given you might be wrong, should we write tedious overlong missives about it, then gloat when you piss off?

I think not.

Maybe Mercury? Mars is too close for a decent telescope to miss the truth.

"Keiran, I hang my head in shame!!"

"Keiran"?!

Barry, you're talking about knowing how things will pan out in the future. That's nowt to do with the crux of the matter.

What was said was that "Simms signing a contract tells me all I need to know about him." It was certainly obvious it wasn't meant as a compliment, and you know that, mate, as well as everybody else who read it.

Has he (Tommy) been treated badly since? Not by me, but if you make what can only be construed as a slur on the lad, you're gonna get pulled.

If you're gonna get upset at that, think about what you print before you hit submit. End of story for me.

It's gone too far to be sensible now anyway.

When it comes to matters "TW", I just think us fans need to be able to poke fun (and show lenience) to each other when it comes to players, rather than resort to the sort of silly character annihilation so evidently favoured in Brazil and in and around Kirkdale/USA from two/three of us.

After all, the antics of those few, those very few, who are culpable for the sorry state we're in (for nigh on 30 sodding years) are far more deserving of personal attack, aren't they, as folk in Brazil and in and around Kirkdale/USA occasionally touch on with insight?

The Live Forum scene in Star Wars was great. As Obi Wan said “never will you find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.”

Equally, I am sure Barry's opinions are bone-headed drivel and he wouldn't be able to disagree because, if I am I presently wrong, how does he know? Or more likely accept that Barry is a fantastic wind-up merchant who always gets a bite!

Yes, Don, agree about a balance between poking fun and lenience.

And I'll take my red card like a man!

"Barry, you're talking about knowing how things will pan out in the future."

Why misrepresent and descend into naughtiness? I spoke about the idiocy of making a conclusion about Tommy's opinion without knowing the facts both in the future and now – it's there in black and white

Remember the "slur" will eventually be regarded as an accurate description "if" Ellis follows the route of those mentioned. But if sensitivities are such that some (remember others agreed with Tommy) cannot wait to see how it pans out, then they are entitled to puff out their chest in righteous indignation as much as they want. What they cannot do is say Tommy is wrong whilst gleefuly compounding their error with sanctimonious bollocks.

I invoke my right to effect your "pulled" description on such miscreants at that point.

Simple question:

Within your personal moral compass, do you see any slur on Simms's character, here and now, in this statement: "He's signed for the money and unfortunately that tells me all I need to know about his character."

Possibly so if he is wrong - if he isn't then no it is an accurate descriptor. The issue is that minus all the facts no conclusion can be reached. Quite simple really.

For it is that about which we are talking. You seem to be saying it's okay to impugn his character because we just don't know?

I don't think it's okay to impugn his character, just because he signed a contract with Everton.

Barry, you're barmy, at least you MAY be proved to be so. 😉