Holgate attracting loan interest

Sell. I'd rather play Branthwaite. We've got Keane, Mina, Godfrey and Branthwaite. That will do. Reinvest the funds on someone that isn't Longstaff and I'll be happy.

Never fulfilled his promise, makes a lot of mistakes and has the arrogance of prime Baresi without the talent or temperament.

If Burnley can get £20M for Wood, sell him to Newcastle now.

Christy just seen that. I thought it was a deeply machiavellian move. Overpaying for a player that will help them short term but also deeply impact one of their main rivals.

Personally I hope Mason stays as I think he has better this season than last.

He's getting older but not getting any better, and his first half performance against Brighton last week, was as bad as anything I've seen for years, which is a bold statement considering how much shite I've watched over time at Everton.

It's a pity he never improved. Early last season, I thought he had every chance to establish himself either at centre-half or back up right-back.

God knows what happened but, for whatever reason, he seems to have gone downhill quite quickly.

Hopefully a move may well kick start his career but I doubt staying will help either party

Please get rid. He's a liability. Not good enough in the Premier League. A Championship player, like Delph and Davies.

Clearly, Moshiri never read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. If he had, he'd have learned that, before you invest your hard-earned in any business, you work in the business in some way so that, when you come to have to trust someone to manage any aspect of that business, you at least have enough understanding to a) have a half-decent chance of picking the right person for the job and then b) enough nouse to ask the right questions in meetings when overseeing said manager during review meetings.

Failing to do this leaves you wide open to being royally shafted by charlatan chancers who can see from a mile away that you have pots of cash and know nothing about the business you just bought.

Specifically regarding useless, overpaid crock playing staff, am I overly optimistic to hope we'll have eventually cleared the mess we're currently in by the time we're playing home games at BMD?

Disappointing because he was excellent during Ancelotti's first few months and I thought we'd found a new John Stones.

Not to be.

Hopefully he leaves and we get some decent money.

Rumour mill in overdrive today!

Holgate can go, El Ghazi no thanks and Allan needs to stay

Send Holgate on a Nice trip. Then hire somebody there to steal his passport.

He can sit next to Schneiderlin on the Nice bench and they can compare notes on sideways passes and general indifference.

A good move all round for Holgate and club. Not good enough.

No loans unless guaranteed sales price or loan fee of £5M plus.

Holgate like many young player's failed to improve on his initial promise. He can still look good at times and panicky 5 mins later.

There are two pet hates of mine that he has always consistently done that needed to be drilled out of him years ago but continues to do.

1. he's too quick to pass blindly backwards to the keeper. Often resulting in giving the ball away 20 yards from goal.
Coaches should fine him for every back pass!

2. he goes to ground too quickly when tackling. Often giving dangerous free kicks away and yellow carded or simply skipped past.
Coaches should warn him and then sub him every time!

But he has rescued the slow Keane several times this season by using his pace covering for his team mate.

Godfrey and Branthwaite are both better defenders.

Cash only, no loans and no El Khazi either. Shouldn't be too hard for Benitez or Everton - no more Mr Nice Guy.

I'm worried that Rafa doesn't know what he is doing.

Lost count of the many opportunities he has had to push on and step up but, for whatever reason, it's not happened. For me, his main attributes are his speed but this is paled into insignificance by his poor positional awareness and ball watching. How many times has he lost his man?

Has to be a sale, will do his confidence good and our bank balance. The next of many.

Christine

That may have something to do with the fact that He's played in just about every position across the back line. In just about every formation. For two managers who's sole intention is to spoil the game. He's played in Midfield too. When he played there for Ferguson he produced a performance at Old Trafford that Allan has failed to match in numerous attempts.
Could anybody see Either of the lighthouses managing that ?...or even being asked to try ?

Yeah he's a whipping boy, but I would challenge anybody to to put up a list of errors he has made which lead directly to us conceding a goal...Ask that about any other defenders..and it would be like asking what have the Romans done for us.

If You ask a footballer to spoil a game and you are taking a fish out of water.

Holgate didnt play when we conceded 2 going on five against a championship team last week. He wasnt there when wooden Yerry and static Michael were run ragged at Villa...and he had no part in the five goal walloping against Watford.

If he goes; People like M Gaynes who come on virtually every day to hammer him (whether the thread is about him or not) will be sitting there scratching their heads wondering why we are still getting murdered when the "culprit" has gone.

Branthwaite is a baby. we`ll be left with Cant play, Wont play and Got no fuckin intentions of playing.

Put someone like Duncan Ferguson in charge and Holgate will become one of our best players again.

With him gone and Tom Davies out. I guess the "experts" will need to find another whipping boy.

If I was Anthony Gordon I'd be asking my agent to get me the fuck out of here.

I agree with Darren which is very unusual... Rafa out big Dunc in...

Darren, you know what - I think Benitez actually rates Holgate and sees him as a useful squad player for now and someone whom he an improve in the long run. Having said that, most fans are disappointed that Holgate has not turned into the player that he showed he could be during the Duncan Ferguson managed games as well as the initial few months under Ancelotti.

It does not help him and Godfrey playing beside Keane, because Keane spreads nervousness across the defence. Mina is just too unavailable to help in the development of Holgate and Godfrey. Although I see Branthwaite as the next John Stones in terms of his composure and comfort on the ball, he is just too young and inexperienced to be burdened with being the defensive lynchpin of this team.

So, what we really need, which many on here are calling for is an experienced, big, dominating CB - someone like Rudiger or Koulibaly (my favourite fantasy player). Someone like Distin who Moyes pulled out of a relegated team (Portsmouth) all those years ago.

I wish we had gone in for Kurt Zouma when he became available last summer but FFP probably prevented that from happening. There must be others of similar ilk available - preferably with PL experience - Lewis Dunk or Shane Duffy for example.

I've already commented that I'm reluctant to criticise Holgate. Yes, he's not firing on all cylinders right now, but that happens to players. I'll criticise for performance in individual games, but that's form.

And he's another young player suffering from the uncertainty of our managerial situation; it's bound to affect the young players more.

Also, in addition to an unsettled situation at the club, he's not really had a settled position to make his own. I know it's a squad game more than ever and formations fluctuate, but a victim of his own versatility? Or managers don't really know his best position or what to do with him? But they like him because he is a good player and does have that versatility that managers like.

I still think his best position is centre back, but maybe in a 3. With better players around him. That one's for you Darren!!

For where we are now, he's good enough to be in the squad for me. But I'm not the manager.

I read somewhere the other day that Burnley were interested in him, whether that is the un-named team who knows.

Surely we can't get rid of too many players in this window even if we replace them. We need team cohesion badly at the minute and new players will need a bedding in period no matter who they are.

I read somewhere the other day that Burnley were interested in him, whether that is the un-named team who knows.

Surely we can't get rid of too many players in this window even if we replace them. We need team cohesion badly at the minute and new players will need a bedding in period no matter who they are.

Holgate can and will come good again. I just hope its with Everton...

Were in trouble if Morshi cant see what Rafa is doing two stubborn men sinking the Everton ship.

I would rather let Keane and Mina go than Holgate. He doesn't play half as bad as people criticise him for and has been our most consistent defender this year.

I've yet to see the same people who criticise him for chewing criticise Townsend for the same thing.

Holgate, with a run of games and alongside someone with an ounce of pace, is a good defender.

Darren @16- great post. I had said previous that I thought Holgate has been better this season and I feel that this is despite this manager and not because of him.

Benitez has become a disaster zone for defenders over the years and if you look at how many goals we are conceding from set pieces and how all of our defenders are struggling under this regime, you can see that Mason is actually doing a lot right. if you look at every defender at the club through the entire back line from Digne, Godfrey, Holgate, Keane, Mina, Coleman and Kenny you could argue they are all suffering to various degrees yet our fan base would be happy to get rid of the lot of them. What I feel they are missing is that any new addition would likely to fall in the same category.

Benitez famously told John Terry that he was too old and too slow to play 90 minutes in the Premier League at the age of 32 because he became a total liability that campaign having the worst season of his career. Mourinho comes in they win the title whereby Terry was rejuvenated into being the best defender in the league that season and incredibly playing every minute of every game making a total clown out of the Spaniard in the process.

If he does that to a Premier League icon what hope for some of our boys.

For me too many supporters place emphasis on how the manager sees the game and because his limitations are transferred onto the players they dismiss a lot of talent out of hand.

I was against Townsend coming because I wanted to see more of Gordon. Many said he wasn't good enough because he didn't pull up trees on loan. He only gets his chance through injury now they rave about him.

Likewise I wanted Branthwaite when Godfrey was poor because I thought he would bring balance and was worth a try. He comes in and had a stormer months after he should have had his chance.

I wanted to see a more technical manager coming in after Ancelotti who has a record of improving players as I think we have still some decent talent here not being utilised properly with the likes of Richarlison,Digne,Gomes,Godfrey and especially Holgate at the forefront of that list.

Darren, frankly I think under Benitez that ship has already left port. For his own good I think he would be better off finding a club he can claim his own place and fit. Its a fair comment that he has been used across the back four in multiple positions but has not done enough in any of them to oust the present incumbents in the eyes of previous managers, any of them. Midfield? I think to my recollection he was used there once? may be wrong about that, but he doesn't command the box as a centre half (neither do any of the present lot it has to be said) rarely do I hear of headed clearances etc.. so given that Benitez is taking no prisoners, I feel his career, rightly or wrongly, is drawing to a close here, as are most of the current squad. Sometimes players don't make the cut with managers, it says more about the managers than the players.

Robert@8- I keep hearing that myth that it was Ancelotti who had Holgate playing his best stuff. I totally disagree with that and feel the Italian was largely responsible for his disastrous form.

This is not me just taking a pop at Ancelotti as I feel that working under the Italian will most likely be fundamental to his long term career as he will have learnt so much in terms of his weaknesses and on the art of defending that he wouldn't get from say a Silva.

However for me the Portuguese played to his strengths whereas Ancelotti didn't and it was no surprise to me that his form relapsed.

Under Silva in that turbulent season Mason was absolutely immense and his partnership with Mina gave Silva a stay of execution. I had never seen a centre back get so many man of the match performances game after game in such a struggling side.

If you recall we were able to play with a high line which we couldn't do with Mina and Keane who had been disastrous. When Ancelotti first came in we almost continued with Silva's way of playing only with Ancelotti's greater tactical nous. For me it was when Ancelotti began playing deeper the following season after Mason's injury that Mason's lack of stature and not being a backs to the wall defender began his demise though I'm sure the injury also had an effect on his confidence.

Personally I think Mason is more suited to a coach who will play on the front foot as was the case in his first real full season here.

I had high hopes for Mason but despite having around a century of Everton appearances he hasn't pushed on in the last year or so. I don't think he's any worse than Keane or Godfrey in particular but neither is he much better. He's not as quick or some might say and he's not especially good on the ball either; in short he's not the John Stones-esque footballing centre back I hoped he'd be.

I'm sure he'd look better under the right manager in a better team but that doesn't help us now.

If we were to get a good bid for him it would make sense to consider, though it probably speaks volumes that this has not happened despite him being reportedly available since Benitez arrived. I don't see how a loan would help us unless it were to put him in the shop window for higher price but such a tactic had the opposite effect with JJ Kenny.

Picking up on your observation about commanding the box Christine. Or the defensive line. Agree

I think Holgate is a good player and can potentially get better. Like you though, it doesn't look like it will be with Everton, unfortunately.

Back to command. Like a few of our defenders, he is not a commander. They need to be commanded. And we lack that. I've been calling it for ages. I'm boring myself now.

Get that player in and I believe players like Holgate and Godfrey would look totally different. Both young players out of sorts. Could that partly be because they're not being led by that commander. Commanding front foot playing centre back. Please can we have one Moshiri, Benitez, Kitman or whoever is in charge of transfers this week?

Connor #26, You might well be right. I remember him at his best at the end of the weird lockdown season.

Whether Ancelotti gets credit for that I don't know - but I do think Ancelotti was at least partly responsible for him tailing off by (a) buying Godfrey, who was never going to be a good partner for Holgate and (b) playing him at RB rather than CB for long stretches.

A player who might have kicked on as a CB therefore found his chances very limited.

You are probably right that Ancelotti's increasingly 'on the back foot' tactics made it harder for him to shine too.

I bundle him up with Iwobi and Gomes and now Digne as people with ability but have stopped looking like they enjoy their football with us. Having lost their oomph and sense of purpose, might be best just to let them go and move on.

It's really tough to pass any sort of real criticism of any of the CBs in our squad based on the awful zonal defensive tactics that they are dealing with weak in weak out.

Poor attitude, switches off too much for a centre half at this level and frankly thinks he's great but he just isn't and never has been.

That said, a loan is ridiculous, we need fee's, there must be someone out there that wants him for £5-10 million?

While we are at it let's find permanent suitors for Tosun (another that badly needs removing off the wage bill) and end the contact of the waste of a dressing room hanger that's known as Fabian Delph.

Jim @ 31. As things stand Delph, Tosun, Kenny and Sigurdsson are all out of contract in June so all will be off the books.

Can't say Benitez isn't aware large scale revolution is long overdue if Holgate hops off to join Allan, James and Digne. Think I saw a list of players near the end of their contracts as well so if he can get his own players in a fair assessment of the manager can be made.

"fair" 😂😂 book me through my agent I'm here all week.

I thought Silva sent Holgate out on loan where he played right back for most of that period, Conor?

Anyone get the feeling that this is Benitez (and Everton's) way of raising transfer funds? Unfortunately it seems he is getting rid of those somewhat better than the "deadwood" who appear to have until season's, that is contracts, end.

Just hope his computer list of 3000 is up to date and doesn't include those positions reasonably well stocked which seem to be goalkeeper, full back, central defence and wingers at least for now. Other than Longstaff any ideas on his midfield?

Conor,

Picking up on your post @26 and the comment about some now raving about Gordon. Not sure what's wrong with that. I'm glad people are raving about him even if unsure a year or so ago. He did need to improve aspects of his work rate, physicality and dare I say, attitude. All common traits with young players as they develop.

With young players, it's always difficult to predict how they will turn out. Some thought Barkley and Rodwell were going to be world beaters. Others didn't rate Calvert-Lewin. There was near hysteria around Cadamateri. We thought Kenny was the long-term solution to the right back berth. You just can never tell.

Only the benefit of hindsight proves those opinions right or wrong, but it doesn't stop people praising or criticising at the time on a match by match basis. None of us are the Evertonian equivalent of Mystic Meg or Septic Peg. It's easy to say "told you so" either way several years later.

Gordon is coming along nicely and has justifiably received praise for his recent performances. But he's still developing, so let's hope he gets managed correctly to realise the full potential and be a future star for Everton.

This looks like the work of a man who is going absolutely nowhere and is putting his own stamp firmly on the team. It might work out, as long as it is not the work of an autocratic, out of date manager who just wants yes men around him. (On that point has anyone ever seen him and Duncan talking to each other on the touchline?)
And the Rafalution WILL be televised. I get the feeling it's not going to be dull from now to May 22nd.

Mike @10 - love it! Don't forget his inclination to misplace passes constantly, commit stupid fouls in dangerous areas and his ability to observe opposition moves unfolding without actually doing anything to stop them - or his knack of not getting in the way of shots.

Get rid.

That's what infuriates me about him, Jim #38. There's so much physical talent there, and so little football intelligence.

And so little commitment. Even his most passionate supporter here (above) was moved to concede a few weeks ago that Holgate just doesn't care very much.

Your comment about his awful passing highlights another point. Even had he committed to fulfilling his potential and became as good as he could have been, Holgate was never going to be more than a strictly defensive CB in a modern world that values attacking skills he utterly lacks. Mason can't carry out of the back, can't pass, can't get into the box and score with his head even occasionally. At one point I thought he might develop some playmaking ability... I remember him laying in a perfect through ball for DCL to score a few years ago. Turned out to be a fluke... it never happened again.

Forget a loan, just do a straight swap for Longstaff, we know what one can or more so cannot do, nothing to lose, rather do that, than pay money for Longstaff.

Send him where?

He's contracted thru June 2025. Looking up his per week wages shows widely different rates; from his old contract 25k per rate (which I'd doubt), 37k, 45k, 63, k, and even 70k (these last two, I'd hope the Club isn't paying him AND a 5-year contract).

So, taking 50k as a rough average, Mason is owed about 9 million for this and three more seasons. Maybe quite a bit more, maybe somewhat less.

Think this will be a sticking point regarding any fee we get and his agents negotiations with a new club.

He's 26 next October. Like Iwobi, Kenny and include Barkley at that age, what we're seeing is all we're going to get.

We must be able to recoup our million quid we spent on him. He's versatile because he can play shite in a number of positions.

Thank you Christine and Darren, I was beginning to think I imagined the game where Holgate was tearing about the pitch, playing incredible in the Defensive Midfield role. I seem to remember the Centre Defence was so bad at that point he was moved back in there again as soon as the Midfield injury crisis eased at the next game.

If Allan is going, I'd be giving Holgate a shot in that role.

Does he need a lift to the Airport ? :-)

As far as I'm concerned the quicker this fella is gone the better, another one of the fabled play out from the back centre halves who can't do the basics of defending, give me a tall rugged centre half any day of the week over a blag ball playing one who thinks he's better than he actually is

I agree with Darren, in that I think Holgate best position could be a defensive midfielder. He also has the inclination to bring the ball forward not like our other CB who will pass around the back, become pressed and then send it back to Pickford who hoofs it up the pitch and hopefully not out of play.

I'd give him away for a bag of crisps. Lazy, useless, arrogant waste of space. My Nan can defend better than him and she's been dead these past 20 years. Get rid, many thanks 😊

I am totally against a loan !

That way he would inevitably come back to us ! :-)

It must be me but I just don't see the Holgate midfielder thing. I'd rather bring in another midfielder before we go down that route otherwise we're reverting to the square pegs in round holes approach many have rightfully complained about just to try and make a player we like fit.

I would imagine that aside from one or two performances, over time, he would be getting slated. Not a midfielder for me.

I think the thinking here leans more towards him being more suited in a defence that can play higher up the pitch. I think he'd play better in a 3, but I've said that earlier.

Danny
I think he has limitations in centre of defence particularly in handling crosses. At full back he can do the job but not sure he can get to oppositions end line to deliver god crosses. Hence I would like to see him tried in the Allen role. I do see some qualities and do believe it is the best place to channel his aggression.

Holgate is not a terrible player but he's one of many who has lost his oomph at Everton and probably needs a fresh start to get it back.

I don't think trying him in another position is the solution. A lack of regular position for him has become part of the problem.

Holgate will probably not be loaned out. But there are questions at Finch Farm of sustained and improvement player development. Player come to Everton full of promise, but after intial good performances, seem to drift.

Even improving players is beyond their reach. King after a year at Everton looked 100 times fitter, when he turned out against Everton after two months in the Summer at Watford( no chance with Rondon then). Holgate, Digne, drifted from previously good performances. Many players look to drift to a recognisable Finch Farm level rather than NSNO Everton level.

Jerome I think there are 2 key reasons for that problem :

1. Some players like King are bought in without the manager's blessing. There's no role for them in the team. That's a function of powers at be pulling in different directions. Unfortunately we may see it with El Ghazi.

2. Some players lose their sparkle over time. I think that happens because it's hard to stay motivated if you're not competing for anything. I think that happened to Digne a bit. That's a function of playing for one of only 2 sides in league football who have won nothing (including promotion) since 1995. The other is Oldham.

That's why I think we should focus very hard on cup competitions. The players need to know they are trying to win something

Neil, I think our discussion lends itself to something I've mentioned earlier. Maybe that's the problem with Holgate. Managers and coaches don't know what to do with him, but his ability and versatility make him attractive to keep in the squad.

He hasn't had the benefit of playing for Manchester United and picking up medals for his efforts, but a bit of a Phil Neville?

Who, let's face it, lived in the shadow of his brother and the other "Fergie's Fledglings". Got moved around the pitch like a subbutteo player, could never make a position his own but was a managers dream.

Sell him to first bidder of £8M plus. 3 years ago we thought we had a gem on our hands, he hasn't met that potential and its all gone stale for him. I suspect, like with many that fall foul of the Everton curse, the problem lies within the bowels of the club, not necessarily in individual problems. I am glad my 9 year old son wants to support Man City (I supported his free will on this decision but banned Liverpool as an option), I would not wish this club on anyone right now :(

Robert (53) - Players are always competing for things, even if it is on more of an individual level than specifically silverware; improved contracts, international recognition, sponsorship opportunities, social media followers, the chance of moving to another club further up the ladder where all of the above become more likely. If you think that players are motivated by the possibility of winning trophies then you're watching the PG13 version of an 18 rated movie.

Those things you describe are individual level motivations, Andrew. Some players will have that sort of motivation, some won't. Same in any walk of life.

What if you are highly motivated who joined what appeared to be a newly rich club with great ambition - then found yourself with repeated mid-table finishes, deteriorating quality of players around you, lack of focus on cups etc.

It creates a club level environment which saps away at motivation and creates a very comfortable environment. Almost uniquely comfortable at Everton.

Robert#53

Very good points. I understand the need for a short term winning post. I have employed that strategy myself.

I have gone out of my way to get to grips with Finch Farm, I admit from a distance, helped by those with local knowledge. I find a very sophisticated structure with alot of up to date thinking, but a lack of performance accountability.

Maybe footballers now have a short life cycle explaining the fall of in motivation you explain. Six years of differing Managers has not helped. But basic football errors are more to do with commitment to training imo a nd the attitude of trainers. .

Apparently Bernard has recently revealed that there were problems in the dressing room regarding attitude. Maybe the modern day highly paid footballer is not so easy to talk to.

I would be interested how you see this?

I think you're onto a very good point there Robert and it all goes back to mindset and culture throughout the club; top to bottom.

In any organisation, or walk of life as you put it, if there is a culture of acceptance and resignation, that will breed and spread; human beings tend to fit in to the culture or they leave.

I know football is a slightly different beast, but that's a pretty good call in my opinion.

For once I think i'm with the vast majority! He started off showing great promise, but it's never really gone beyond that and if anything it's gone backwards. Flashes of being okay, but gets panicky. That just isn't good enough. So sell now while we might get some money back, or loan out and bring someone else in. Godfrey is fairly versatile so can fill in too. It's not quite the same point, but next season we've got Nkounkou back so more left back cover so less needing to shuffle people around - something we've had to do a lot of this year.

Duncan might be able to get a tune out of him, particularly if he wants the defence to play higher up the pitch. He can certainly turn and run back faster than Keane.

Maybe if Burnley sell Tarkowsky to the skunks they will take Keane back. He suits their style of play.