The Next Guy...

Very negative, Barry.

You've written him off before he's even got here!

Well there is a novel approach: just ignore the preconditions. Lovely. Next.

By the way, it is a spiral not a circle. While Dyche did make a mistake yesterday; you should try to understand why before proposing solutions to that problem.

Bloody hell, Barry, happy pills run out?

I don't think there are too many of us that actually want to see another manager sacked after what's gone on over this last six years regardless of people's opinions on Sean Dyche.

But if you keep on losing home games against poor opposition then it's heading only one way for him now I fear.

Our home form under Dyche will be what is the death knell for him, at this rate he's falling on his own sword.

The team selection of constantly picking that trio in midfield at home which hasn't once worked in his time here (and didn't work too well when Lampard was here either) is mind boggling.

How can he not see that it doesn't work at home?

He likes James Garner, fair enough, so play him in midfield then, don't shoehorn him on the right, bring him in in the middle in place of Onana or Doucoure.

And seriously at home to Luton, picking Young over Nathan Patterson?.

Play Harrison and give him 60 minutes at home to a team that want putting on the back foot.

I just don't see what he was trying to do there yesterday, or in most home games he's had here in fairness, it's like he thinks he's still at Burnley where every home game is about paying as an underdog.

As I say, I don't want another managerial change I really don't, but the form under Dyche (some decent away results aside) is just horrendous, and at Goodison in particular it's becoming beyond an embarrassment.

Maverick Martinez?...phenomenal!

The most maverick thing about Martinez was wearing brown shoes with his navy suits...

Barry

There was a contributor on last week who said he had to say goodbye to Everton for health reasons, given the negativity coming from you above, it might be in your best interest to take a time out from EFC for a period.

I feel your misery after yesterday but we have to pick ourselves up, stay positive and hope, indeed expect for a better time down the road.

Kenwright may have killed a lot of people's expectations since the start of this century but I still remember the School of Science and Championship winning teams of the 1980's. We were the best and we can be again!

We will see better days in the future, we will eventually prevail!

Barry yesterday was another very poor performance and I still can't understand why he keeps playing Garner out of position, but Dyche hadn't a penny to spend, and changing the manager again is not the answer.

"Decent money"? Them days is over!

As I keep saying, I've given up blaming managers.

Many know where the real issue has lied for decades.

Maybe Dyche could end up being the next lamb to the slaughter in an act of blame deflection and self-preservation.

But who next? Who with any credibility would want it? It would likely have to be someone up and coming who we haven't heard of and we'd need to be even more patient.

Danny

Dyche was not given the best of hands but he is not making the best use of it!

I think Paul's comment WENT IN THE HOLE!

Barry

I get your point but don't see Martinez as a maverick. Yeah early on with Moyes defense we could attack with abandon. But the longer he was here the slower we became with endless sideways passing, no one making runs, no dynamism just sterile passing to pass with no progression up the field or as a club. Very similar to what happened with Belgium as he took and exciting team and let them stagnate into a static bore fest of failure. I guess to your point though there aren't many mavericks around so you're clutching at straws with RM? It maybe the case that the last round of mavericks turned out to be complete nutters eg Di Canio, Poyet, Keane. In contrast Roy Hodgson is the epitome of a safe pair of hands and so nervous chairmen see his type as the best option.

I don't think you are too far off with your analogy of a dramatic structure to the experiences of managers, particularly those of struggling clubs with nothing to spend, Barry; I tend to agree with Jim (#4) however. It will solve nothing sacking Dyche at this time, even if the club could afford to pay him off.
The only hope I am clinging on to is that it is still early in the season, and it appears, at least, that Dyche has made at least some progress in improving away performances, it is both his own tactics and the mindset of the players at Goodison which is our core problem.
I have just watched Forest draw 1-1 home to Brentford. What struck me was that both teams seemed able to get the ball forward quickly and accurately, and it energises the home fans. We rarely see any of that in our home games. I really rate Forest's Gibbs-White, he is exactly the dynamic midfielder who would do wonders in making our midfield more potent. I gather he turned us down though, when he was playing for Wolves. Ah, well.

The reality is that the bar for survival for any Everton manager is now pretty low. In truth it probably has been for quite a while.

Avoiding relegation under Dyche will be seen as success...comfortably avoiding relegation will get a stand named after him at BMD.

I think Dyche will survive but perhaps his name won't be attached to any stand at BMD.

IMO the inadequacies are at squad level not managerial.

Dyche is lacking support from above and below.

For years we have been desperately short of players who can score goals (not just number 9s).

We could and should have been at least 3 up in the first 15 minutes but for atrocious attempts at putting the ball in the net.

We have 3 MF players none of whom has what could be called goalscoring instinct.

We are weak in both fullback positions so the wingers need to help with covering neutralizing our effect down the flanks.

In short we have a team made up of mainly 6/10 players instead of having a number of 8/10 players.

We let Mina, Iwobi and Gray go and all 3 would have improved what we witnessed yesterday.

We are incapable of breaking down teams that park the bus and when we do our efforts are woeful.

Dyche is trying his best to get a tune out of them but will quickly find the same as Lampard, Benitez and Ancelotti that we need a miracle worker.

Sacking Dyche probably won't achieve anything, though our fixtures after Bournemouth and up to Man City on Boxing Day don't make pleasant reading. I'm Looking at that list and wondering where a team who cannot keep a clean sheet might pick up points - Burnley away perhaps?
If we are looking likely to be cast adrift by then a change will be inevitable.
Perhaps Joe Royle (who is 2 years younger than Roy Hodgson) might be tempted back?

There inevitably will be a next guy, but I hope Dyche sees out a three year deal at least and helps to manoeuvre us back into mid-table stability after too many years of utter chaos and mismanagement (largely off the field).

Despite mistakes (of which even the best managers are guilty) he is a good fit for the club and if we can give him a little more on the field quality then I'm confident we can start to enjoy being Everton fans again to some degree.

Obviously we won't and indeed cannot compete with the likes of City and others at the top table. That's nothing to do with Dyche. We are not simply "a decent manager" away from trophies, European nights and the top 4.

The teams that compete at the top table have better players than us, often with a second string that is better by some margin than our First XI. They have both quality and quantity.

The easiest way to participate at the top table is by being unbelievably rich (sugar daddy and / or commercial operations). We have neither.

Another way to compete (trophies and European nights if not titles) is to build teams by developing players, accept they'll all then leave and then experience a fallow period before going again. Lots of clubs around Europe do this.

Basically it works on a player recruitment and development model, targeting the young cheap and talented. Many clubs also invest heavily in their academies. I bang on about this all the time and often get told I'm talking nonsense and, for various reasons, while other clubs do it - it simply isn't possible for us.

I'd like to think it is possible. I'd also like to think we're already starting to do something along these lines under Dyche and (instrumentally) Thelwell. I'd like to see improvements in the academy too. Since these things take time, it probably will be "the next guy" who gets a lot of credit if we can sort out the supply of quality to the First Team.

Until Sean Dyche arrived our away form last season and the season before was worse than our home form. He has managed to deliver an improvement in the away form with six draws and two wins in the last ten league away matches. That's more than a point per game which ordinarily would be enough to ensure a mid-table berth. Away from home we have scored goals, played progressive football and looked a decent team in spite of defensive lapses in some of those drawn games.

The home form has proved intractable. We have not scored more than one goal in any game at Goodison since last October. Yet enough decent chances have been created to win three of the four games this season. Fans have argued for various attacking permutations. Yesterday Dyche tried many of them including Harrison on the right, Garner in midfield and Beto and DCL as the duo up front. None of those changes worked.

Indeed they made things worse. Our play in the closing stages was totally disjointed. Our players looked as though they were still getting to know each other which in several cases they are.

Given the 40% turnover in playing personnel since last season that is unsurprising. It will take any manager time to mould these players into a consistent winning unit. Dyche will know more than anyone the pressure is now on him to deliver victories at Goodison. I doubt any other manager, willing and available, will be able to do that in the short to medium term.

These are dark days. I believe we will improve sufficiently to stay out of the relegation places but three points next Saturday would seem imperative to prevent panic mode setting in.

John @19

Even the great Ancelotti found it difficult to win at Goodison, in his only full season with us, he only oversaw six victories, losing nine and drawing four, but his away record shows eleven wins, four draws and only four defeats.

However, that being the season during lock-down, and therefore no fans, it's hard to fathom why that should've been the case. I'd argue that even Ancelooti would have struggled to keep the fans onside with his Goodison record, had they not been prevented from attending.

I had a look at our home games, following Bournemouth and prior to Boxing Day, prompted by a fellow poster on another thread,and it hasn't filled me with optimism.

The problems at Everton aren't down to the manager.
Sack him, get another, the results will still be dire.

I honestly believe that there is huge random factor in appointing any manager. Who'd have thought Emery would revitalise Villa, de Zerbi out perform Potter, Pochettino, with a fantastic reputation and limitless resources, flounder at Chelsea?

Sometimes though it's the recruitment policy, recruitment budget and philosophy of the club that has as much bearing on the club's success as the manager. I think we're in that cycle of underachievement because we haven't got those factors right and that another manager won't make much difference in the long run. Having said that, defeat to Bournemouth and Dyche will be very close to the edge.

Because we have been through so many Managers and seen so many hope dashing results like against Luton it is easy to try a stereotype the situation.

I personally believe to root of the football problem is the Rest and Recovery regime at Finch Farm, while the rest of the Premier League is operating on a High Performance regime.The Finch Farm regime is not fit for purpose in the modern game.Hence all Everton defeats appear to be similar.

Many Managers are caught unaware as a result. They think they have got the selection right and the tactics right and witness it fall a part in front of their eyes.Dyche and everyone mentioned have had similar experiences.

There is no doubt that Dyche has fixed views on who to select and the way his teams should play.There are flaws in his selection and tactics, but they are exasperated by a regime that seems to be able to continue largely unopposed with its out of date rest and recovery regime.

Thankfully I was not able to see the full match at the time, but did watch highlights and footage of areas of play.Everton had two games in close succession and their regime was not fit for purpose in coping with a third game close on the heals of a midweek game.Those not selected midweek were not up to speed for selection against Luton.Dyche
also seemed to get carried away with the midweek result changing the structure of the attack.It appeared that no work had continued on set pieces, having rectified the previous set piece problem with work.

Dyche will stay in the meantime, but if a takeover occurs there will have to be more on the firing line of change than Dyche, if necessary fundamental change is to take place.

Frustration Dyche says. We all know that one, but the team is and continues to be, without soul. It's a thin shell with no centre steel, brittle without substance. Capable of flurries of endeavour but totally lacking the spine upon which consistency can be built.
In this non contact game we lack enforcers, not the hard men of yesteryear, but the relentless effective engine that enables the creativity to function. Alas we have neither the engine or the guile, one without the other is not sufficient to make progress, without both you will struggle to survive.
We have runners.. but no generals. We have a manager, like all those before him, who struggles to get his team running in the same direction, at the same time.
A significant amount of deadwood has gone, but the malaise remains. Are we simply not good enough? Or managed poorly? A mixture of both?
Watching of late reminds me of a jigsaw where everyone has a different image of the final picture, the pieces don't fit together, square pegs, round holes. Jammed in, wrong fits, bad decisions.
One could forgive Dyche for bemoaning the lack of quality in places, but several players consistently fail to hold a shape, have tactical awareness or simply fail to do what's asked of them.
That's Dyches job, as was Lampards, Ancelotti, Benitez, etc.. it's not working no matter how frustrated he is.
Too many tactical errors, absolutely basic defensive failures, horrifying in their simplicity.
The manager isn't good enough to get the best out of a poor squad. The squad isn't good enough to do what the manager wants. It's a match made in hell.
Responsibility is shared but the price of either failure is the manger. Slavishly continuing with players who fail can only have one result. Failure for the team.
We have tactical holes due to players age or ability that we do not cover tactically. Asking them to do things they cannot. Find a system with the players we have, dare I say it, do a Moyes.

Reading the replies the consensus seems to be it's not a good idea to sack him- I agree.

But he will be sacked if things don't radically change in the next few weeks.

New owners are the sharpest shooters the quickest on the draw they'll have him out before you can say “severance pay”.

The views here are a bit like surveys showing people would pay an extra few pence in tax to improve the NHS - very laudable. But then election day comes and nobody votes for it.

People talk a good game full of reasonable musings but come the defeats we all know what happens.

He was dead fish as of Luton

It makes you wonder who the decisions will be left to over sacking/appointing managers?

I'm assuming 777 will have a fair say in the matter depending on how confident they all are on concluding the deal.

If it's left to Moshiri then you think Dyche probably would have one or two games left tops, given that he seemed reluctant to appoint him in the first place, it was so apparently clear that Marcelo Bielsa was the man he wanted.

Dyche is going nowhere. Moshiri has minimal interest besides which he probably can't afford to sack him without another loan (mind you that would epitomise his ineptitude). 777 love a distressed asset, so they'll be happy to see how this plays out. We're rudderless, both on and off the field.

He won't be sacked anytime soon because 1) no-one is making decisions, we are on autopilot for a while and b) there's no money.

If the new owners come onboard, and if they have any money to spend in the short term, then they might fund a replacement, albeit they might also look at the vast deadweight cost of 'letting go' previous managers. Bear in mind if a manager and his team get £5m or £10m or even more as a leaving present, that is a pure bottom line cost. If we buy someone for £30m, it doesn't cost that or anything like, and if we were wise (which hitherto we are not) we might actually profit trade, like Brighton and others do. I'm quite sure sacked managers don't count as an asset.

In any case, they would need money to sort the real problem, the quality and lack of depth of our options. Yes Garner should play in the middle, and we have the likes of Harrison or even Danjuma to play wide midfield, but that still leaves us with 2 pretty duff midfielders and a back up of Dele, who we can't play because of the transfer fee issue and Gomes, who never will and appears to have 'tooled down', even assuming we think he would improve matters. Then there is the 'Godfrey as DM' option .

Dyche is not miles off turning us into a mid-table team. We've been seriously hamstrung by some woeful finishing and individuals switching off at the back. And some very low quality full backs. The performances have been better than the results. Though of course its the results that will decide Dyche's future.

The reality is that we will not have 'decent money' to spend on transfers for a good few years. Certainly not without first selling our best players. 777 will likely come in and they continue what was already started this summer; cutting costs and turning us back into a more sustainable business.

Not many managers have more experience of keeping up a club in the PL with zero budget than Dyche. And I still think we will be fine this season. But results are king and Dyche can only keep harping on about performance and xG for so long.

We have no money and nobody making the decisions so Dyche likely to get a free pass this season, certainly till the new year.

I like him, honest and intelligent. However, some of the decisions have been strange but it's easy for us to criticise. I want to see us stick with him for the time being.

However, if we do sack SD, look no further than the Ipswich Town manager Keiron McKenna. What he's done on a shoestring is really impressive, only 37 and has serious pedigree. He will be poached by someone in the PL soon.

Of course we won't do that and we will go for some no mark.

Steven Schumacher is one to keep an eye on too, not sure whether he comes into the maverick catagory but has done a good job with Plymouth Argyle with promotion and has them boxing above their weight holding their own against much bigger clubs in the Championship. Also has them scoring goals as the third highest scorers in the league. On top of that he has said that Everton is his dream job. Worth following this progress this season to see if he could step up.

I'm still sticking with Dyche as the recent Brentford and Villa wins were good signs of progress. As usual we were let down in the worst possible way yesterday. Why oh why is he playing our best midfielder out of position to shoehorn lesser players in ? He has to be braver at home, seven defeats out of eight home games would see any manager in serious trouble. Most would already be sacked.

There's only so much the fans will take and he desperately needs to get everyone back on side this Saturday against Bournemouth.

Who's the next guy after the next guy?

But of course the players mostly seem to get a free pass in there debates.

Both Schumacher and McKenna are young managers who have performed very impressively with their clubs. For their long term term career prospects they would be wise to steer clear of a Premier League club in big trouble on every front, not least the uncertainty over the ownership and the dire financial situation.

There is long list of former managers who damaged their professional reputation after moving to an unstable club. Some never recover from the experience. At present we are set up for any manager to fail.

Sean got carried away by two very good performances and made errors in his selection. Gana and Young are too old for a starting berth- Garner and Onana should be the CM pairing with Harrison and Dwight on the flanks.
Patterson has to play in this type of game where the attacking threat is not obviously severe. If Mykolenko is not fit then play Godfrey- he has had his best games for us there.
We must give Dyche a chance. He now has strikers but they need time and a settled midfield behind them. Our wide players need to practice crossing the ball at pace, our whole team needs to practice defending set pieces and how to pass to a blue shirt!!

Sod it, we need a true maverick as we're going nowhere without a pisspot.

I'd go for Will Still from Stade de Reims. Despite his highly unorthodox background in football, his win % is crazily high for a club of Reims stature.

It would make it interesting to follow Everton at the very least when all we are currently getting is relentless embarrassment and disappointment. That's putting it mildly.

Should Managers be sacked? I can't recall many resigning owing to a team's performances unless you think Ancelotti did as there wasn't any money to buy more of the type of players he wanted, or did Real Madrid come calling first? But I suppose there is then those phrased, "By mutual consent" which always has me wondering who consented first.

Ancelotti's contract at Real is up shortly and he did, albeit flippantly, once state before one of their games against somebody or other, that he is an Evertonian.

You are absolutely wrong to include Moyes in your critical list of managers. Look at your next sentence where you say "given reasonable money".

If Moyes had been given such funds, the story of Everton would have been so different and, in my view, much better than it has turned out.

Robert 18, mirrors closely what I think about changing managers often.

Sure, Dyche in hindsight has made mistakes; it's easy in hindsight though, isn't it.

Our home form is terrible, as someone has already said, when the opposition lay back we seem to flounder.

If we can't beat Bournemouth next up, it will be a major disappointment and the future will be looking grim.

Will sacking Dyche make any difference? I fear not: it's more about the players than the manager… in our case, I think it always was.

If he does a "Carlo" and loses loads of home games but wins away, we will be fine.

A maverick like Bielsa might have taken us straight down and into administration.

I'm not a big fan of Dyche but the guy needs a lot longer.

We should have photoshopped Rupert's Tower onto the cover of the Who's Next album for a lead picture.