Column
If you believe you can or you can't ? you're right
That phrase has been attributed to Henry Ford and it suggests that you will achieve what you believe you can achieve. Like most Everton fans, I have been following the stadium debate closely and have come to the conclusion that the so-called leaders of the club do not believe they can redevelop Goodison or find a site within Liverpool. But where there's a will there's a way.The board and Wyness must be intelligent and resourceful people to get where they are today. I find it impossible to believe that, if their initial thoughts at the start of their discussions were, "We want a state-of-the-art stadium within Liverpool", that they could have made this happen. Is there no club motto in the boardroom? What has happened to Nothing but the Best etc?
Why are they not aiming at the stars? Why did they tantalise us with the Kings Dock stadium? Are we all supposed to forget that magnificent stadium in its magnificent location? Remember how Bill eulogised about it at the time "World class"... In the space of a few years we have gone from "World class" to "a very nice stadium". Who are they kidding?
And this is the saddest part: I don't want our club to be run by some pseudo politicians who won't answer a straight question and think the fans are stupid and can't see the way they are being manipulated. The fans are the lifeblood of Everton. Remember, without the fans everything becomes pretty meaningless. Now we are told you can have a vote, but there isn't a choice, there is no plan B. What viable business does not have a contingency plan?
How is it that representatives of the fans are not brought into the debate at an earlier stage to feed back what is going on? Some "People's Club"! Bill can spare the time appearing on television but cannot meet with a group of concerned fans because of the ballot. How do these two events impinge on each other? They don't. It would have given Bill and the fans a chance to do some straight talking, maybe ask some relevant questions, but it seems we are not deemed important enough to ask questions, only to take part in this vote for a lingering death at Goodison or a lingering death as a Tesco subsiduary out at Kirkby.
I have nothing against Kirkby or the residents but when I watch Everton I want to come back to Liverpool. Maybe Bill and the board need to keep reading the club motto until they raise their aspirations and develop a "can do" attitude. If they really believe they can't, then it is time to move over and let others who can, take charge.
Finally I remember reading an interview with Graham Souness (no lover of Everton) who said that Everton should be one of the richest clubs in the world, because on his travels round the globe, he was always meeting wealthy Evetonians who were passionate about the club. Well, if you are out there it is time to make your presence felt and help us all aim higher.
Reader Comments
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J.harris
2 Posted 21/07/2007 at 15:56:46
2 Posted 21/07/2007 at 15:56:46
Barry it is you who are deluded if you think this board is capable of getting something for nothing!!
Every investment has to have a return.Otherwise it would not go ahead.Who do you think this deal suits most Tesco, Knowsley or Everton?
We would get a much greater return and more Free money (City of culture/EEC funding)by finding a suitable site in Liverpool(Oh that Kings Dock - If only).
That is obvious to anybody with any financial acumen.Do you see any other developments happening in Kirby?
I personally will give a resounding no to this vote for 2 reasons.Kirby is just wrong and secondly I have no trust whatsoever in this board.
Nuff said!!
Every investment has to have a return.Otherwise it would not go ahead.Who do you think this deal suits most Tesco, Knowsley or Everton?
We would get a much greater return and more Free money (City of culture/EEC funding)by finding a suitable site in Liverpool(Oh that Kings Dock - If only).
That is obvious to anybody with any financial acumen.Do you see any other developments happening in Kirby?
I personally will give a resounding no to this vote for 2 reasons.Kirby is just wrong and secondly I have no trust whatsoever in this board.
Nuff said!!
Steve Taylor
3 Posted 21/07/2007 at 16:24:20
3 Posted 21/07/2007 at 16:24:20
John - you asked the question who does this deal suit the most - Knowsley Council, Tesco or EFC - the answer is all 3 - it’s called a business partnership!
You seem to think that by simply finding an available site closer to Liverpool city centre - we’d automatically be able to generate equal amounts of funding, business partners etc - are you seriously suggesting that we could obtain such a site, build a stadium & be left with the same level of debt that we’ll end up with the Kirkby project???
If so, you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. The posturing of LCC in the wake of the Kirkby scheme announcement is sickening IMO. They’re making out that they’ve been eager to work with EFC from the start - absolute bollocks.
Are they prepared to give the same level of support as Knowsley i.e. vastly subsidised land costs?
No - what sites have they actually offered the club??? The simple facts are that land within the notional City boundary comes with a HUGE price tag. For the club to buy a piece of land & build a stadium on it - without the 3rd party support of a willing business partner - simply isn’t possible - we couldn’t afford to do it - simple as.
The Kirkby scheme makes sound financial sense - the only reason for not backing it, is the boundary issue - a nonsense in my view - Kirkby residents are Wools? Didn’t think so.
It makes me laugh when I see some of the arguments for opposing the Kirkby move. I’d have a large bet that many of the dissenting voices are the very same voices that lead the "Keep EFC at Goodison" campaign when the Kings Dock scheme was announced. 8 years on - they’ve suddenly decided that a "Kings Dock" type development - within the City boundary is the way forward.
We couldn’t afford it then....& we can’t afford it now. Vote no & we’ll be sat behind the rotting steel girders of Goodison, watching the RS’s new "Dunkin Donuts Arena" appearing over the skyline - waiting in vain for our Scouse Abramovich to come forward & wave the magic chequebook - for years & years to come.....
You seem to think that by simply finding an available site closer to Liverpool city centre - we’d automatically be able to generate equal amounts of funding, business partners etc - are you seriously suggesting that we could obtain such a site, build a stadium & be left with the same level of debt that we’ll end up with the Kirkby project???
If so, you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. The posturing of LCC in the wake of the Kirkby scheme announcement is sickening IMO. They’re making out that they’ve been eager to work with EFC from the start - absolute bollocks.
Are they prepared to give the same level of support as Knowsley i.e. vastly subsidised land costs?
No - what sites have they actually offered the club??? The simple facts are that land within the notional City boundary comes with a HUGE price tag. For the club to buy a piece of land & build a stadium on it - without the 3rd party support of a willing business partner - simply isn’t possible - we couldn’t afford to do it - simple as.
The Kirkby scheme makes sound financial sense - the only reason for not backing it, is the boundary issue - a nonsense in my view - Kirkby residents are Wools? Didn’t think so.
It makes me laugh when I see some of the arguments for opposing the Kirkby move. I’d have a large bet that many of the dissenting voices are the very same voices that lead the "Keep EFC at Goodison" campaign when the Kings Dock scheme was announced. 8 years on - they’ve suddenly decided that a "Kings Dock" type development - within the City boundary is the way forward.
We couldn’t afford it then....& we can’t afford it now. Vote no & we’ll be sat behind the rotting steel girders of Goodison, watching the RS’s new "Dunkin Donuts Arena" appearing over the skyline - waiting in vain for our Scouse Abramovich to come forward & wave the magic chequebook - for years & years to come.....
Mike McLean
4 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:24:54
4 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:24:54
Still so few facts. The paltry ten million will come from ... what? Increased sales of delicious pies and healthy beer? A Madonna gig in Kirkby? And the thousands of extra fans needed to maintain the atmosphere in this bigger ground are ... where?
And IF the extra ten million gets to Moyes in three years time, that will buy him ... what?
Rotting girders can be repaired. Wrong decisions of this magnitude can rarely be put right.
Perhaps the truth of the matter is that we pessimists / realists base our view of the scheme on the fact that if either Kenwright or Wyness told us they loved their granny, we’d wonder at their motive. In terms of credibility, they’re a busted flush.
And IF the extra ten million gets to Moyes in three years time, that will buy him ... what?
Rotting girders can be repaired. Wrong decisions of this magnitude can rarely be put right.
Perhaps the truth of the matter is that we pessimists / realists base our view of the scheme on the fact that if either Kenwright or Wyness told us they loved their granny, we’d wonder at their motive. In terms of credibility, they’re a busted flush.
Andy Riley
5 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:39:37
5 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:39:37
I’m with Steve Taylor, Barry (and Seve Ballesteros). This is a heart vs. head debate and the head can be the only winner. In a perfect world I am sure that virtually all fans would love to redevelop Goodison into a world class stadium and have money left over to build a Champions League winning team but this needs a reality check. This offer seems to be the best one available and on the figures quoted it a no brainer!
Tom
6 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:27:37
6 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:27:37
having followed everton now for just on 35 years it saddens me to see whats happened to this club of ours. The peoples club my arse. they dont tell you anythink. Maybe if they were a bit more forthcoming with information then we wouldnt all be having a go at each other.I for one dont want to go to kirkby, and having this piss take of a vote were the outcome doesnt matter because they the club dont give a shit what we think have already made their minds up.i also suspect that the actual ground we will end up with will bear no fucking resembelance to the plans that the club are banging out only adds to my worries.so whats the point in doing anything or trying to do anything BK knows that we will still turn up like gobshites no matter were we are playing. only this time i dont think i will . GOOD LUCK
Steve Taylor
7 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:44:38
7 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:44:38
Mike - I think your point about the distrust of Kenwright by most Evertonians (me included) is a good one - we don?t doubt his love of the club - but distrust the spin & his ability to deliver on hollow promises.
The facts are sketchy - but the PR campaign has only just started - expect a daily offering of "bits & pieces" in the run up to the ballot closing date. I would expect that the £10M quoted is based on increased revenue from ticket sales, corporate hospitality & profit from stadium bars, restaurants etc.
If we say No - how long will we have to wait until the next scheme reaches a point where it?s viable? 3 years? 10 years? Can we wait that long? How far behind will we be by then? If we?re hoping Kenwright will sell up & our problems are solved - we?re kidding ourselves.
I?m not Kenwright?s biggest fan - but I do think this scheme has a lot to offer - more facts are needed to make me feel completely comfortable with it - but the fact that it happens to be in Kirkby is an irrelevance to me - but it seems to be the main opposition point.
The facts are sketchy - but the PR campaign has only just started - expect a daily offering of "bits & pieces" in the run up to the ballot closing date. I would expect that the £10M quoted is based on increased revenue from ticket sales, corporate hospitality & profit from stadium bars, restaurants etc.
If we say No - how long will we have to wait until the next scheme reaches a point where it?s viable? 3 years? 10 years? Can we wait that long? How far behind will we be by then? If we?re hoping Kenwright will sell up & our problems are solved - we?re kidding ourselves.
I?m not Kenwright?s biggest fan - but I do think this scheme has a lot to offer - more facts are needed to make me feel completely comfortable with it - but the fact that it happens to be in Kirkby is an irrelevance to me - but it seems to be the main opposition point.
vin bleu
8 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:41:32
8 Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:41:32
If we listened to the "No" lobby we’d see EFC fall further and further behind the top four, all because they can’t cope with the stadium being half a mile north of a notional line drawn on a map. The stadium will be FOUR miles form Goodison and for the vast majority of people alot easier to get to. Barry is exactly right - if we miss this opportunity, it will never happen again. Then bye bye EFC. Guess where future supporters then go to watch football within the all so important city boundary.
Brian Waring
9 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:03:21
9 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:03:21
I would just like to ask them fans who back Kenwright.What would your feelings be,if within a year of moving to Kirkby.All of a sudden a buyer pops up and Kenwright sells up and walks off with a huge profit in his arse pocket?Stupid question really.You would all probalby say he deserves it for all he has done for the club,you wouldn’t for one minute,think that he had ulterior motives for the move all along.
Steve Taylor
10 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:29:53
10 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:29:53
Brian - what if he did?
What difference would that make? We’d still have a new stadium, little debt & (hopefully) Moyes.
It’s irrelevant. Do you think that if he sold up to AN Other businessman - they’d be in for "love"? Get real.
What difference would that make? We’d still have a new stadium, little debt & (hopefully) Moyes.
It’s irrelevant. Do you think that if he sold up to AN Other businessman - they’d be in for "love"? Get real.
Brian Waring
11 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:40:38
11 Posted 21/07/2007 at 18:40:38
Steve your missing the point mate.All the pro-Kirkby crew are saying we should trust Kenwright because he has the clubs intrest at heart.How do we know that his motives to get the Kirkby project underway are not purely so he can get it built and get a buyer and then fuck-off?Would you be happy knowing his motives were to just get the club sold and make his huge profit.You sound like you are in favour of the move.So it’s just a geniune question as to how you would feel knowing he had planned it this way all along.Surely you would feel let down?I,m not saying they are his motives,but at the end of the day we just don’t know.
Stuart Duncan
12 Posted 21/07/2007 at 19:03:34
12 Posted 21/07/2007 at 19:03:34
Brian,
BK owns (part of) the club. If I own my business and make a good decision that increases its value, then I reckon I would deserve to make more money.
I actually think Wyness has brought some stability to the club’s finances. We all realised that it was in a state when PJ left, so why are we all forgetting what they have achieved so far?
You all want a white knight to appear from somewhere. If you read the Private Eye article 6 weeks ago, you would understand that (except for Abramovitch) all the other buyers have either lent the club money or raised loans from elsewhere - i.e. massively mortgaged the club. None of them have put real money in. A buyer of EFC would do the same, so all these clubs are living on the edge. If there is ever a down turn, the owner can rely on the assets to pay him back - ie he owns the land. If the debt is too high, and the owner decides not to put in some equity, well it’s sell the players and the slide begins. (Leeds Utd scenario)
The Kirkby supporters are saying that this looks financially sound. If there is a similar deal available at a better site in the city, great. But if the site in the City costs us a packet and leaves us heavily in debt and hampered in the transfer market, then it’s a poor business deal and we shouldn’t do it.
BK owns (part of) the club. If I own my business and make a good decision that increases its value, then I reckon I would deserve to make more money.
I actually think Wyness has brought some stability to the club’s finances. We all realised that it was in a state when PJ left, so why are we all forgetting what they have achieved so far?
You all want a white knight to appear from somewhere. If you read the Private Eye article 6 weeks ago, you would understand that (except for Abramovitch) all the other buyers have either lent the club money or raised loans from elsewhere - i.e. massively mortgaged the club. None of them have put real money in. A buyer of EFC would do the same, so all these clubs are living on the edge. If there is ever a down turn, the owner can rely on the assets to pay him back - ie he owns the land. If the debt is too high, and the owner decides not to put in some equity, well it’s sell the players and the slide begins. (Leeds Utd scenario)
The Kirkby supporters are saying that this looks financially sound. If there is a similar deal available at a better site in the city, great. But if the site in the City costs us a packet and leaves us heavily in debt and hampered in the transfer market, then it’s a poor business deal and we shouldn’t do it.
Barry
13 Posted 21/07/2007 at 22:45:55
13 Posted 21/07/2007 at 22:45:55
Brian you have hit on the only genuine reason why this deal may not be ideal. The key to this whole scenario is wether Kenwright intends to stay or sell after we move. If he stays then it will indeed be the deal of the century but if he sells up and runs with the money he will effectively leave the club in debt to the tune of whatever it costs the new buyer to buy the club.
I am not naive enough to think this would ever happen but surely now would be the ideal time for the club to start a fan’s trust fund so that we could contribute to the costs of and share in the ownership of the new stadium. Given that the club’s contribution is only in the order of £20m - £30m surely a good chunk of that could be raised through a share issue of some sort. At least then if kenwright cuts and runs he doesn’t take all the profit from the kirkby move with him
I am not naive enough to think this would ever happen but surely now would be the ideal time for the club to start a fan’s trust fund so that we could contribute to the costs of and share in the ownership of the new stadium. Given that the club’s contribution is only in the order of £20m - £30m surely a good chunk of that could be raised through a share issue of some sort. At least then if kenwright cuts and runs he doesn’t take all the profit from the kirkby move with him
Mike McLean
14 Posted 21/07/2007 at 23:00:18
14 Posted 21/07/2007 at 23:00:18
Are we still missing the point? WE’re not moving for the sake of it, we’re moving because, apparently, Goodison is falling down.
Oh and there’ll be extra cash and more fans. Apparently.
Most of the ’no’ lobby are not sentimental fools hanging on to a long tarnished dream, they simply want to know how moving into a tin can is going to improve finances and where the new paying support is coming from.
If anything, it’s the ’no’ lobby who are the hard headed pragmatists here. The ’yes’ group tend to blur over the detail.
A good steward of the club would be seeking inward investment, building the squad and exploring every avenue exhaustively before issuing the "...no plan B" statement.
Without going into, perhaps, tedious detail all the way from the 1890’s, any Evertonian who believes the Board on almost any matter is flying in the face of historical fact. They have made many quite astonishingly poor business decisions for the club, ignored the long term in favour of the quick buck and, notoriously in a game famous for its neglect of fans, been one of the worst when it comes to genuine delaing with the people.
All clubs are in hock to someone, so Kenwright’s presence after an initially beneficial period, is of little relevance. And without extra debt disguised in some way, we will not build a squad capable of challenging for honours. Again, Kenwright’s name is to the point only because we know he hasn’t got either the dosh or the bottle or the vision - whatever -to look for growth.
Or is it more Deadly Doug syndrome ... noone plays with my toys until I’m good and ready. I hope not.
Oh and there’ll be extra cash and more fans. Apparently.
Most of the ’no’ lobby are not sentimental fools hanging on to a long tarnished dream, they simply want to know how moving into a tin can is going to improve finances and where the new paying support is coming from.
If anything, it’s the ’no’ lobby who are the hard headed pragmatists here. The ’yes’ group tend to blur over the detail.
A good steward of the club would be seeking inward investment, building the squad and exploring every avenue exhaustively before issuing the "...no plan B" statement.
Without going into, perhaps, tedious detail all the way from the 1890’s, any Evertonian who believes the Board on almost any matter is flying in the face of historical fact. They have made many quite astonishingly poor business decisions for the club, ignored the long term in favour of the quick buck and, notoriously in a game famous for its neglect of fans, been one of the worst when it comes to genuine delaing with the people.
All clubs are in hock to someone, so Kenwright’s presence after an initially beneficial period, is of little relevance. And without extra debt disguised in some way, we will not build a squad capable of challenging for honours. Again, Kenwright’s name is to the point only because we know he hasn’t got either the dosh or the bottle or the vision - whatever -to look for growth.
Or is it more Deadly Doug syndrome ... noone plays with my toys until I’m good and ready. I hope not.
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1 Posted 21/07/2007 at 15:24:17
If you think that all Kenwright and Wyness have to do is have a litle think about the club motto and hey presto somne devine inspiration will miraculously provide and even better stadium option for no cost then you are as deluded as you sound.
If I challenged you as an individual to find a way to get yourself a new house free of charge do you think you could do it? Do you think any amount of positive thinking would get you a free house/ And if by some fluke of chance you did manage it but I said the location wasn’t good enough do you think you could do it again somewhere better and do you think you would even bother trying. I don’t.
Grab this opportunity with both hands Paul cos there won’t be another one like it ever!