Why didnt Neville go down when Kuyt tried to drop-kick him in to the Bullens Raod stand?Gerrard had no hesitation going down and getting Hibbert sent off did he? Neville should have done a Drohgba and hit the floor. Kuyt would of been off and that would have been that.
We are too nice and don't have any real leaders in the squad apart from Stubbs. Stupid decisions cost us the game not just the referee's cheating. Why did Hibbert let the ball bounce on the half-way line in the first place which led to the penalty challenge on Gerrard? In all honesty the ref had no choice once Gerrad went down.
The team Moyes sent out for the Derby game was a joke but I dont hear anyone having a go at Darling Dave for that. A team consisting of three right backs, three center halfs, no left back, no width and very litte in the way of creativity... and we are all blaming the Ref for the defeat. The Hoofball approach to the game was both painfull and embarrassing to watch yet a lot of you seem fine with that also.
The awful way in which this season has started is surely enough to convince even the most loyal of Moyes zealots that this miserable and gormless style of play doesn't work. Moyes is killing decent talented players with this bullshit. Yakubu is coming in for all kinds of stick now but what do you expect a striker to do with his back to goal and the ball aimed at his head all game long. It's a joke. Yakubu was a 20-goal-a-season striker until Moyes got hold of him.
Blaming the referee for the Derby debacle is an easy option as far as I am concerned. It goes a lot deeper than that. We will never get anywhere untill we start playing the game in the proper manner. We are no better to watch than a conference side under Moyes's leadership and it has to change. Supporters from other clubs actually laugh at us when they watch us play and I can see why .
Some of you defend Moyes and his playing style and point to results being all important but what now that the results have started going against us? It's not working yet Moyes is still using the longball tactic... WHY??? The club is a shambles from top to bottom and the football is as bad as I have ever seen from any Everton side including Gordon Lee and Walter Smith and some of you just lap it up without any hesitaion.
That's the big problem with EFC at the moment ? fans who are too easily pleased or too easily fooled. I have never known a group of supporters at one of Britain's elite clubs to be so happy with utter garbagge as us... If we continue to accept Moyes and his outdated methods then all we will get is more of the same. No trophies and no entertainment for the next 5 years at least.
Stop blaming referees and linesman and take a look closer to home. The manager is taking no flak for this latest defeat but its all down to him in my book. Still we finished 4th once and we are no longer fighting relegation so the football doesn't really matter....?!?
Isn't ambition a wonderful thing?
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1 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:59:27
Sometimes we look very naive; it sounds negative but I think under the circumstances we should have shut up shop and played for the point.
2 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:21:37
Agree again we do need to start playing FOOTBALL not this crap. these players get paid very well yet the average fan breaks the bank to watch this shite its not on. I believe our money was wasted,a blind man could see we needed one maybe two center midfielders who could play a killer ball or just hold on to it, we cant do the simple things thats why we are getting killed most weeks,, your right about the leaders we dont have any, maybe add cahill and grav could add to stubbs as leaders, i think we should play 3...5...2....here it goes howard...stubbs yobo...lesscott...arteta...pienar...cars...cahill...v.der mey...yak..and aj...what do you think tony??? surely we could keep the ball better and create chances with this lot??????
3 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:30:13
we have i think the best bunch of players weve had in years an theyre bein strangled by hoofball
i said in a previous post that were becoming a graveyard for strikers for which i recieved loads of flak just because yakubu was desparate to come here, if he had his time again now dont think he would be in a rush
one last point
does anyone else think arteta is becoming fed up with our style of play ?? one last chance for moyes is the return of cahill and graveson i hope ?
4 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:30:37
still preaching to the converted ?
you dont want Moyes - not many of us do
so who the fuck do you want ?
5 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:29:09
However, unsurprisingly, you’ve seized the opportunity of a defeat in the derby to get on your Anti- Moyes soapbox.
You say that the football is as bad as anything you’ve ever seen from an Everton side???? Do me a favour - were you in hibernation when Mike Walker was at GP??? & the silky football of Claus Thomsen & Brett Angel used to really excite eh Tony????
Compare the squad we have today to the squad of 2/3 seasons ago - there’s no comparison in terms of depth & quality.
Incidently you mention that we started the game on Saturday without a Left back - from where I was sat our Left back was the best player on the pitch.......
You obviously want a change at the top - but who would you want in his place Tony???? Who would be capable of coming in & turn us into the Arsenal of the North ????
Sadly it’ll only be after Moyes goes that people with your viewpoint will finally understand what he has brought to EFC.
6 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:26:42
But stop using this site as your platform to co-ordinate a Moyes Out campaign. Yes air your views now and again, but it is getting so boring you on here all the time saying the same old things.... another 5 years!! God part of me wants Moyes sacked as I don’t think I can stand you going on and on for another 5 years.
And before you start having a go at me I am not defending Moyes, althought whilst we are still in the cups and touching distance of UEFA cup places I’m going to hold my judgement, because I do think this is a defining season for Moyes.
7 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:40:37
Two words.... mark hughes!!!! attacking football with a good mix of passion and they like to pass the ball for some strange reason!!! his transfers has also been excellent
8 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:35:05
Last week it was "I’d take a derby win over some silverware"
Yes, you are easily pleased aren’t you Tony and it is a big problem.
How about "I’ll take as many points off as many teams as we can and win a couple of cups in the process?"
"Oh, yes and I don’t care how we do it"
9 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:28:37
Has it also struck you that despite a slow start we were good value for our 1-0 lead (though luckily gained ultimately), and that derbies typically are not conducive to Arsenal-esque flowing football? After going down to ten men and keeping two up front (which I also applaude because in sitting back the winner would’ve come much sooner) how are you expecting this creativity in a midfield of three, two of which are defensive midfielders. Due to injuries in that area we were unable to field the likes of cahill and graveson which may have offered this attacking threat. You could argue that Pienaar should have started but he lacks the physical clout required on such an occasion (arguably Osman does but his past performances against Liverpool, and possibly the fact that he knows what this match means to the club merit his start). Please refer to the laws of realism before stating your desires for the club, and no im not a moyes ’apologist’
10 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:43:47
Come on guys, he’s right, of course he’s right. I can barely stand any more of the dog shit we serve up
the problem is, no one seems to have the courage - probabaly fearing scorn and ridicule - to come up with a fucking alternative, its driving me mad
11 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:52:32
at last, a name, dont agree, but its a name
MH Has been slated from all corners more than anyone - with the possible exception of Big Sam - for his style of play.
The words frying pan and fire spring to mind
12 Posted 23/10/2007 at 20:00:02
Mark hughes teams was slated for being( over aggresive) if you can remember not so long ago they came to goodison and played us off the park only for mcfadden to snatch a late goal.. my point is they play football to win matches we play not to get BEAT...time to change
13 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:39:08
There are many points I could make but we were just poor all over the pitch. Too many players playing out of position, no width and very little pace. The only person to blame for all of that is the manager. Baines and McFadden should have played to give us some width and pace. Arteta should be playing in central midfield, you could sense his frustration with the long ball tactics we continue to use.
I still think peformances will improve with AJ, Cahill and Graveson in the team. I also think we are capable of playing ’proper’ football if Moyes would only play thru the midfield and not over them!
It is time for a change of manager. I would go for Jose Mourhino, Mark Hughes or Martin O’Neill. All three have been successful as eiher a manager or player, something Moyes has never achieved!!
14 Posted 23/10/2007 at 20:14:55
15 Posted 23/10/2007 at 20:14:36
sentence.HA HA HA. Good one that.What I meant was I know we will never win a trophy under Moyes so the Derby is our Cup final our only chance to celebrate something during the season
16 Posted 23/10/2007 at 20:12:39
The central midfield problem was identified pre-season with the attempts to sign ,Manny , Lucho , Riquelme ,? for varous reasons unsuccesful , Now as far as I know David Moyes never injured Grav or Tim C but will no one at least concede that if these 2 players had been able to play or one of his attempted signings had been succesful then we would have had a much better season all together , a much more creative midfield which in turn lessens the pressure on the defence ? If TC and Grav return and we still play the same monotonous football then I too will lose faith in DM , he’ll have no more excuses , But for the life of me , I have no idea who could replace him , I think Arsene is a bit busy at the moment
17 Posted 23/10/2007 at 15:12:45
For the life of me, I do'nt understand how anyone, no matter how anti-Moyes they are can possibly blame our manager for the events of Saturday afternoon. Personally, I think our boys played magnificent. Prior to the sending off, we looked down right comfortable and following Hibbert's dismissal maintained a very attacking approach in spite of the player deficit.
I'm not going to even attempt to argue on behalf of the team and the manager because, let's face it, anti-Moyesites out there will remain so no matter what he achieves. What I would like to ask you though is this. If David Moyes was to be replaced who would you want to come in? I'm throwing open the floor to the minority who want DM out in an effort to see what names you throw up because I genuinely don't think there is an available or poachable manager who could or would do a better job at our beloved club.
18 Posted 23/10/2007 at 20:33:21
You must be having a laugh mate, If we cant play the balls to the likes of nev and oz in midfield what the fuck are they doing there in the first place!!! nev is a fullback fullstop,, oz is a poor squad player pienar plays football yes he might be lightweight but at least he goes looking for the ball plus he has a bit of pace!!! jags is a defender so no wonder our defenders dont pass to them,, we hace the players we just dont use them right!!! bring on MARK HUGHES
19 Posted 23/10/2007 at 20:17:06
Tony Marsh, however, has it all sussed - it’s all David Moyes’ fault. So tell me Tony, if Moyes had fielded a more attacking side would that have inspired Clattenberg to give us one or both of the two pelanties we deserved?. And if we had played more attacking football would he have ignored Gerrard’s aside to send Hibbert off or maybe he would have red-carded Kuyt as the rules of the game required him to do?
20 Posted 23/10/2007 at 19:59:33
On the tactics I thought they where right for this particular game. On a whole Moyes tactics are genarally shit but he got it right on derby day. I think we played a mixture of long ball and passing but to me the long ball hurt them more as Carragher and Hyppia couldn’t stand the power of both Yak and Vic. Baines was left out because Lescott offered more physical presence and could deal with the diaganol ball Liverpool have played in the past as they did last season with Gerrard winning the knockdowns on the smaller Naysmith. And judging by Lescott’s performance he was quality both defensivley and attacking wise. He gave us width down the left handside also.
Yes we could has passed the ball better but we would have been beaten more convincingly in my opinion. They are the better passing team and if we had played to there style they would have killed us plain and simple. Man utd couldn’t beat Arsenal last season as they tried to outpass them which they couldn’t do as Arsenal where better in that aspect of the game. If they head been physical and agressive they probably would have beat Arsenal but they played into there hands and payed the consequenses.
To be honest I dont care how we play as long as we win. If that means winning ugly or outpassing teams I dont care but if we are not winning I worry and sadly we are not. If we are going to continue to play this long ball game then why not play our biggest a most physical players? Thats my gripe with Moyes. Play to our strengths and we will win a lot more. At the moment I see players like Baines, Arteta, Osman, Pienaar, Johnson and Van der Meyde who while they are small they are all capable of playing passing football and should be allowed to do this. They are not suited to "Dogs of War" tactics so dont play them. Aa I’ve said whether Moyes wants to play total football or dogs of war atleast pick the right player or it is a waste of time.
For me this is the big time this season where Moyes is badly under pressure. With Johnson, Vaughan, Cahill and Gravesen coming back the football and results have to improve and if they dont he has to go. This is his team and he should face the consequenses if they dont improve because it doesn’t look good at this moment.
21 Posted 23/10/2007 at 22:02:51
You Make a fair point, I wouldnt give a monkeys if Everton were tagged over aggresive, if they were exciting, Sharpy, Gray, Read n Bracewell we no shrinking violets, but I’d give me right hand to have that back every week, but its not just that is it ?
I’ve seen Blackburn stink the place out on more than one occasion and outplaying a depleted Moyes team - not forgetting it took a TH shot in the arm to get them going - is hardly a ringign endorsement is it ?
Youve swayed me a bit, you may even be right and I certainly wouldnt dismiss it out of hand
I need more convincing and will watch Rovers a bit closer, I suspect however the answer to our problems may lie outside the Prem
22 Posted 23/10/2007 at 22:49:24
I have never rated David Moyes and was questioning his tactics in the first three or four games he managed for us and I think now, after almost 6 years he has more than peaked; but he is not going nowhere and we all know it and to be fair he has gave us some stability (although this season I think the wheels have finally fell off).
My main point here is that over the past four to five years well over 60% of the football played in the Premiership has been utter garbage, we have contributed to that no doubt but the main concern I have is not our situation, but the current and future football (and investment) being played by the likes of Man City, Newcastle and maybe West Ham or Blackburn that will see the 5th, 6th & 7th spots taken up and will have more impact on us than the way we are managed under David Moyes.
Saturday was a disgrace and your right, Liverpool were there for the taking but again and not for the last time our tactics and game plan didn’t exist!
23 Posted 23/10/2007 at 22:49:22
24 Posted 23/10/2007 at 23:54:00
25 Posted 23/10/2007 at 23:50:07
We have one midfielder who can pass the ball in the entire match, and they double and triple team him and foul him so he can’t do anything...
The only saving grace for this is that if Yobo keeps playig like this Nigeria won’t want him for the Africa thing in January....
Tony’s right...the guy has tken us as far as he can...there ain’t no more....
And by the way, please stop with the Mark Hughes nonsense....he’s Moyes in disguise...
26 Posted 24/10/2007 at 00:05:11
But, general anti Pip sentiments aside, we can?t, with a tight schedule & a threadbare (especially in midfield) squad, afford to lose our captain for months at a time.
And it shouldn?t have mattered if he jumped the tackle or not, Tony. Should have been a dismissal either way.
27 Posted 23/10/2007 at 23:11:47
28 Posted 24/10/2007 at 00:26:37
So if I want to blame the referee for an inept performance on Saturday, then that is exactly what I will do. I won?t have anybody telling me that I can?t. The football isn?t always great under Moyes, his tactics are sometimes questionable to say the least, but for christs sake, don?t you realise, he isn?t going to get sacked in the immediate future so why don?t you do something constructive and write to the clueless bugger and tell him how to mange a football club, as you seem to have all the bloody answers.
29 Posted 24/10/2007 at 08:26:19
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but why ToffeeWeb allows you to evangelise so often on this site beats me.
Understand this, Moyes will not get sacked for the foreseeable future- unless he walks of his own accord. Also, who is going to replace him that can do a genuinely better job ..... Souness, O’Leary, Sammy Lee - how many top seven finishes have this lot acheived as Managers .... so for everyone’s sake, give it a f**kin’ rest will ya, its become mind numbingly boring and it’s only my anger of seeing you spout verbal diarrhoea that has forced me to write this as normally I can’t be arsed responding to your usual tripe ....
30 Posted 24/10/2007 at 10:54:08
After Clattenburg and then the Aussie television referee at the rugby it was a bad weekend.
31 Posted 24/10/2007 at 11:21:01
Moyes just simply isn’t good enough.
32 Posted 24/10/2007 at 11:35:55
33 Posted 24/10/2007 at 12:47:07
As it happens, it would seem like you got what you wanted, plenty of ammunition for your Moyes out campaign. A campaign which, as many have pointed out, is pointless as he’s going nowhere right now.
The team selection was questionable and we certainly didn’t create a great deal. Can’t argue there. As usual you point out some valid arguments and as usual you offer no alternatives/solutions. You have every right to your opinion, but you are like a stuck record. It would have to be an Arsenal like performance (my god how good were they last night) for you to struggle to find negatives.
Complaints about the lack of creative players in midfield? If we had played Pienaar (the only other real option) and lost then Tony and the like would have argued the exact opposite. That we didn’t have enough steel in the middle. It’s a no win situation.
The referee wasn’t totally at fault for our loss on Saturday, nor was Moyes and nor was Hibbert. IT WAS A COMBINATION OF ALL OF THOSE THINGS! It’s no good telling people to forget about referee’s decisions/mistakes or telling others that there are no problems with the team and that it was all down to the ref. It was all of the above.
The difference between Marsh and many others is that they don’t have an agenda and he does. Whilst many fans would accept a poor performance to get a win in these circumstances, Tony would prefer to have the ammunition to shoot down Moyes. The refs mistakes can’t be changed (as someone posted earlier), but if you can’t come on a site like this to let off steam about such shocking officiating, then what can you do?
There is no doubt that we need to play better, but we could have come out on the right side of Saturday’s result with some better reffing.
Tony will continue to write his articles, and he has every right to. Just don’t let his perpetual negativity get you down too much. He wants Moyes out and won’t stop bitching til he gets it.
34 Posted 24/10/2007 at 13:49:23
Lescott over Baines at left back? Lescott is the better overall defender and even without Torres, the RS still possess a wealth of offensive talent
No Pienaar? In a derby, he would have been ground to bits -- many of which we’d still be picking off the GP turf if he’d been on the receiving end of Kuyt’s Bruce Lee imitation
As for Hibbert, as I said in response to another post, Moyes must be clinging to the idea he’ll regain his defensive form. That, to me, was Moyes’ only mistake, but I say that only with the benefit of hindsight as I was at the Boro game and Hibbert actually played well. No manager can know in advance if a certain player’s going to have a clanger
Moyes does seem to have a more attacking frame of mind since the Spurs debacle of last year, even staying with two up front when down a man, but there are still games when defence first has to be the game plan.
Oh, and Mr. Marsh, be careful what you with for. You might get it.
35 Posted 24/10/2007 at 14:23:50
36 Posted 24/10/2007 at 14:57:29
If and when the times comes that someone in higher authority should see fit to move him on, then so be it. I am frustrated that under his five years we have not even come close to a trophy but even under the smith years and howards two and three sessions in charge led to nothing. Even Mike Walker was given hardly any time to achieve anything. Joe came in and steadied the ship but after the Fa cup win we were soon back in choppy waters. I hope we can win something this year- even if it is the league cup. I would even like to have seen david go up the steps and lift it himself.
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