In the last few years our attendance has averaged around the 36,000 mark, which is 90% of the capacity. I am also reasonably sure that, in the past, Wyness has stated that this percentage should be higher.
The proposed Kirkby stadium has a capacity of 50,000. Now 90% of this is a 45,000 average and if we make the reasonable assumption that EFC are looking for around 95% that is an average of 47,500. These sorts of crowd figures and the ability to sell the corporate side 100% are presumably what the £10M for additional transfers is based on.
If we had a waiting list for season tickets or the new ground was conveniently located, then our average attendance could drastically increase. Incidentally when Arsenal moved from Highbury they had around 24,000 season ticket holders and another 24,000 on the waiting list ? I think they have limited season ticket holders to about 44,000 at the Emirates.
Unfortunately, we have no waiting list and as Kirkby is on the periphery of Liverpool, it is not convenient for public transport. Looking at maps of Kirkby (no, I haven?t been there for years), there also appears to be a lack of parking compared with our current location ? country roads don?t lead to mass parking.
Of course there is the park & ride solution ? 50,000 leaving after a Uefa Cup night match, how many busses are going to be needed and how much will it cost to park? It doesn?t bear thinking about, especially when you consider that the further out from the centre, the more likelihood that the average supporter will need a car. Also at Goodison there is always the option of walking to Lime Street, which is a huge advantage compared with being so far away from the centre, that bus, car or train are the only options.
I just don?t understand where all these new supporters are going to come from. Yes, I know the Liverpool & Man Utd games will be full houses, but can you see the attendances increasing for Fulham, Wigan, Middlesboro etc. As for visitors to Liverpool with no affiliation to EFC making the effort to visit our new stadium, I just don?t see it happening ? again too far out.
The other problem is that there are so many people unhappy with the Kirkby option, that we will lose some of our current support. Personally, I will go and watch EFC in Kirkby, but I certainly won?t go to as many home games and possibly won?t renew my season ticket ? why bother, when it should be easy to get tickets for the games I want to see (in a stadium I don?t want to be in)?
If EFC want to dismiss the Loop or any other idea, then fair enough. I just wish that if they go public with their reasons, they are based on common sense and not some mythical figure that has been dreamed up by Wyness. In my cynical view, if the Loop could hold 75,000 then Wyness would have said 85,000.
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1 Posted 22/11/2007 at 19:45:12
2 Posted 22/11/2007 at 20:02:09
As to whether Kirkby is the right place or not, that is actually a different issue which has been amply debated elsewhere. People are combining them becasue they see it as a cynical ploy by Wyness to discount the Loop site. Well, the fact is Everton are not interested in the Loop site and it seems no amount of persuasion is is going to get them interested, or sway them from Destination Kirkby.
3 Posted 22/11/2007 at 20:16:34
Trevor, Michael, you both talk a lot of sense. I prefer to read your reasoned argument and informative posts than some of the crap that is being held up as "debate" on the other threads! You acknowledge that we should be aiming high, regardless of our current attendances, but offer up arguments as to why you feel that Kirkby may not be the place. Bravo.
I wish more of the fans that posted wrote this kind of response instead of the usual regurgitated nonsense. Most threads start with some good debate, then decend into verbal abuse.
Thanks for redeeming my faith in this site for providing info and interesting discussions/debates.
Jeez this is doing my nut at the moment
4 Posted 22/11/2007 at 20:32:26
5 Posted 22/11/2007 at 20:34:38
5.16 "The development proposals set out in this IPS are likely to have significant implications for transport networks. The stadium, retail and other town centre uses proposed are likely to generate very significant numbers of visitors, which could, unless adequately managed, create
significant additional pressures on the public transport and highway networks, and on car parking facilities. Pressure for car parking will be particularly significant on match days. If these issues are not addressed adequately there could be severe implications for the operation of the highway
and other transport networks, and for the amenity of nearby residents."
6 Posted 22/11/2007 at 20:56:18
7 Posted 22/11/2007 at 21:00:55
8 Posted 22/11/2007 at 22:47:03
Even if the loop could accommodate 75,000.. be it 10 even 20 years in the future, how do we pay for it TODAY
How do we pay for the redevelopment of Goodison into a modern stadium TODAY
We can?t afford a new stadium on our own - fact
The loop site cannot accommodate a 50,000 - 60,000 seater stadium AND the retail development that make it financially viable
-and even if it could, why would any company do that with Liverpool City Centre down the road to compete with?
9 Posted 22/11/2007 at 22:33:23
It’s about time Bill Kenwright grew some balls and came out the woodwork to stop this maniac in his tracks right now before it’s too late.
I hope the forthcoming shareholders meeting exposes this shishter once and for all.
10 Posted 22/11/2007 at 23:26:51
Of course it would be great if one day a really successful Everton was playing in 75,000 capacity stadium packed to the rafters. It might happen, but our history tends to suggest otherwise.
Everton’s success has been cycical. One interesting stat is that every 24 years since 1891 Eveton have won the League- 1891, 1915, 1939, 1963, 1987 ( we are due another in 2011 so get your bets on now! :) ) and whilst there has been success in between only really in the 1930’sand 1960’s did we sustain it for more than a few seasons.
Therefore, it stands to reason that should we end up with a 75,000 capacity stadium the barren years in between success could result in much lower crowds and loss of atmosphere. We can also say that this could cost us dear as I am personally sure that only Goodison’s ’ on-top’ atmosphere has saved us a couple of times when things were bleak (1998 for example). Furthermore, the likely access problems in Kirkby will not boost attendances and 40,000 could seem lost surrounded by 35000 empty seats. Or imagine the 80’s again with only 15,000 in there!
60,000 would easily be enough. Arsenal are happy with that. Wyness has only thrown this silly number in to blow the Loop idea out of the water. This suggests to me that he believes it is more possible than he lets on. I can only feel distrust for his motives, Iam afraid and therefore with all the other reasons that cry out that Kirkby is just plain wrong I cannot back this idea.
11 Posted 22/11/2007 at 23:53:34
At the moment plans are in place for residents parking only within about a mile of both grounds, so what about the future?
I live in Walton and have always walked to the game, however, it stands to reason that a good percentage of the extra supporters will come from "out of town".
What happens then tarmac over Everton Park, park in town, we could get the council to knock down some of them big old red brick warehouses on the Dock Road and use them as a car park or what about park on Great Homer Street when the market is on, we could use the sports centre car park, theres a few hundred, can anybody think of anywhere else, theres Stanley Road all the way up tp Bootle I forgot about that.
Lets face it it would look spectacular but in reality not very practical. I don?t particularly want to go to Kirkby either, I can?t walk there.
I think another site would be better, where, I don?t know,
12 Posted 23/11/2007 at 00:16:19
13 Posted 23/11/2007 at 00:16:28
One little simple point that you raised set my blood pumping and it’s a very obvious one as clearly pointed out.
I travel up for almost every home game from sunny Sussex!!! and I have done that walk to Lime Street . Normally mid week.
I 100% agree... Where are all these new supporters coming from???
I am pasionate about my club, a season ticket holder, just been treated like sh1t again, but thats for another post.
Brian,get hold of TW and give me your email...if thats OK TW
14 Posted 23/11/2007 at 03:03:13
15 Posted 23/11/2007 at 07:06:33
Karl, I agree with you, although I actually believe there were two things that sustained Everton in the top-flight: Goodison’s occasional bear-pit atmosphere (we fans know when to wheel this out to blinding effect) and Mr Neville Southall (although I appreciate he had gone by 98). I dread to think where we would have ended up *considers pouring a stabilising scotch even though it’s at 7.15am...shivers*
16 Posted 23/11/2007 at 09:05:01
Could someone tell me how we are going to pay for this 75,000 seater stadium in Kirkby ? - or will this all be part of the £50m free land , £75m free stadium , £10m fit out costs with minimum debt , "Deal of the century" that we’ve been told of ?
17 Posted 23/11/2007 at 11:05:24
18 Posted 23/11/2007 at 11:08:53
19 Posted 23/11/2007 at 11:19:48
Question: To all the people who believe Wyness is just being ambitious.
Why did he not mention this factor (75,000 seats) earlier when dismissing the Loop? Because it would have put the Loop debate to bed a long time ago. Surely if this was always a consideration then it wouldve benefited him to mention it before.
And its very strange he chooses to reveal this mysterious requirement in the week he was proved catergorically wrong by HOK on the Loop holding a 60,000 capacity stadium.
20 Posted 23/11/2007 at 11:57:31
I dont think that kirkby is the "deal of the century" but its a lot more realistic than building a football ground on a postage stamp. Tesco are putting some of the money to kirkby project which they wont do for the loop site. So were we going to find the extra money?
21 Posted 23/11/2007 at 12:11:07
Why can’t you give the guy a break. I’m not saying Kirby is the answer but christ, if by some nonsense one day we did need a 50000+ stadium, you’d be slating hime because he didn’t have any foresight.
He’s not saying Build it. but he’s including some contingency and anyone who wouldln’t build contingency into such a project wouldn’t be doing their job correctly.
22 Posted 23/11/2007 at 13:03:58
well you could ask KEIOC as they seem to be excellent at coming up with designs for stadiums that fit large numbers into extremely small spaces.
If yuo can fit 60,000 in the Loop or 55,000 in a redeveloped Goodison without affecting attendances in the mean time, then you can quite easily fit an extra 20,000 into the Kirkby site if required!
23 Posted 23/11/2007 at 13:15:10
It is not about 75000 (totally fictitious anyway) or 50000 seater grounds it is about LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION!!
1. Transport and infrastructure- Kirkby does not even compare to a City that is used to having large numbers of people and if anyone thinks that Kirkby can accommodate more parking and easier access than the loop they Deserve Wyness.We are talking about handling more than the population of Kirkby on match days.Who is going to pay for the infrastructure to support that.Certainly not the Government,the council nor Tesco!! Where are the rail connections?
Liverpool already has a wealth of bars,restaurants,Chippies etc.
and Goodison has good demand for functions and events.
Can anyone really envisage booking their special family occasion or corporate event at Kirkby?
Tesco are not providing any money to EFC - FACT!!
Knowsley are providing pretty low value land in exchange for a massive investment from EFC and Tesco.
In comparison the loop may cost more for the land but that can be offset by partnerships and investments from hotel/leisure groups and developers who I am sure can see the value in the Everton brand IN LIVERPOOL.
24 Posted 23/11/2007 at 14:04:09
what are the chances of getting planning permission for a standing section at the loop? If we did, surely we would have a capacity then of 60 to 65 thousound,thats with same plans they have now.Also there are a lot af fans who would love to see standing back at the football stadia in this country.
25 Posted 23/11/2007 at 17:12:52
Where will that go during the rebuilding of the traffic infrastructure at its entrance.?
Have you seen the traffic during a quiet period when one of the tunnels is closed.?
Can you imagine one being closed for months....and thats just the tunnel..its also one of the major routes into the city..
If Kirkby is a logistical nightmare..surely this is worse..?
26 Posted 23/11/2007 at 17:56:27
27 Posted 23/11/2007 at 17:41:09
The fact is Wyness is in a shitty situation just as Trevor Birch was. How on earth can you replace Goodison when you have little or no money? Is the situation as black and white as is made out? I think it is and the lack of any forthcoming alternatives with funding is the reason.
Football has changed beyond all recognition with suits running the game ? Everton FC Ltd tried to be open with the voting (which no other club had done) and now it has become the stick to beat them with. It is wrong to leave our spiritual home behind but Football is no longer the game of the masses, it is a money spinner for the worlds wealthiest men (BK excluded) and you can't have your cake and eat it.
Football has changed beyond all recognition and we almost have a throwback for a chairman because he actually supports the club.
28 Posted 24/11/2007 at 07:21:40
29 Posted 24/11/2007 at 11:37:38
Families might pop in after they’ve been ten pin bowling, bought the groceries and been to Burger King.
Maybe the turnstile attendants will validate their car parking tickets? Dad can go for a swift pint of Chang before the trip home.
30 Posted 24/11/2007 at 16:49:11
31 Posted 24/11/2007 at 21:14:40
To say that the tunnel would not need to close ..and to use rush hor when all roads are in use as an example. .read the question... A Major Route in and out of the city ..plus the Wallasey tunnel closed..FOR MONTHs... of course its a nightmare...
32 Posted 25/11/2007 at 00:19:15
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