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Only 4 poxy miles...

By Brian Baker :  21/01/2008 :  Comments (67) :
Up to now I have just sat back a listened to the arguments for and against moving to Kirkby. At the outset, both sides seemed to have sound arguments for moving to Kirkby, staying at Goodison, or moving to an alternative site within the city boundary.

I for one have tried to stay neutral and listen to both sides of the argument. But the more I listened the more angry I got about how damaging and sensless a lot of those argueing against Kirkby were being. I just wish those in the Keioc camp would sit back and look at their arguments in the cold light of day, against the needs of the club, and just seriously consider Kirkby for a split second.

If Everton had moved to Kirkby before 1st April 1974 we wouldn't be having this argument now!

This is because Knowsley Council was only created by Ted Heath's Tory government in 1974. Prior to that it didn't exist, and Kirkby came under the control of Liverpool Corporation.

How would the KEIOC camp feel about moving Everton FC, lock stock barrel down to Speke or Garston, which are much further away from Goodison than Kirkby, but yet are within the city boundary?

Up until now the main thrust of the KEIOC argument has been based on geography, which to me, based on Kirkby's locality is a very weak argument.

Do these people not realise that to Everton FC time is money? The longer we stay in Goodison the more money we will lose in the long term. We can't afford to spend another 10 years pontificating over where to build a new stadium. The rest of the Premier League will pass us by, leaving us even further behind the so called big boys.

For Christ's sake, with our wide appeal and history we should be one of the big boys, not an also-ran!

I am also yet to hear a sound financial argument for an alternative site or for staying at Goodison, which surely must be a consideration. All I have heard so far are arguments from a few selfish fans who are moaning about having to catch an extra bus or Mersey train to get to the new ground and the colour of the wheelie bins parked outside the new ground.

Just pause for a few minutes, take a deep breath and stop thinking about how this move affects you and think about what's good for the club. The club will not implode with its fans deserting in droves by moving 4 poxy miles down the road.

Everton is a great club with great supporters, who will still be great even in Kirkby.

Reader Comments

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Michael Hunt
1   Posted 22/01/2008 at 05:34:40

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Well said that Man! Absolutely spot on. For Everton to continue to progress we need an improving side (YES), stability at the helm (YES), regular lucrative european football (YES), increased revenue facitated by a hugely improved modern and affordable stadium ( KIRKBY!)
The RS don’t attend goodison or contribute to the success of our great club, so who gives a flying one what they think about such a key issue. For me, the transport issues are the only major concern I have re Kirkby. This ’issue’ of whether the wheelie bins are purple or grey (and what the redshite say) really should not matter. I’m not one for the conspiracy theories and trust that BK and KW have learnt from past mistakes. I therefore have faith in the board to deliver this for a brighter, bluer more SUCCESSFUL EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB, DOMESTICALLY AND IN EUROPE in the near future! Change is necessary EMBRACE THE FUTURE!
Peter Corcoran
2   Posted 22/01/2008 at 06:25:52

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Good comment - we definitely have to move.

Here is an alternative.

Steam in and build (with Tesco) at Stanley Park whilst LFC and the yanks are still trying to find someone to lend them the money to build there - wouldn?t that be great.

Where would LFC go then - don?t really care, but I would not mind betting that another site within the city of Liverpool suddenly was found.
Lyndon Lloyd
3   Posted 22/01/2008 at 05:45:21

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If the whole pro-con argument was solely about "four poxy miles" (5.6 by car, by the way), it would be a far less complex one, though no less heated I?m sure.

The thing is, it?s not just about the fact that Kirkby lies just over a municipal boundary. It?s equally about a mediocre stadium planted on a retail park another four miles (as the crow flies) from a city centre undergoing the largest-scale urban regeneration in Europe.

It?s about misleading figures, shifting estimates, obtuse dismissals of alternatives by "experts" in the pay of the club without a feasibility study into redeveloping Goodison Park.

It?s about genuine concerns that the matchday experience will be watered down by bland environs, park-and-rides, endless bus and train queues and jostling for space with weekend shoppers.

It?s about these quotes from Paul Wilson in The Observer this past weekend:

"Arsène Wenger... backed the Everton fans? campaign to stay at Goodison Park by suggesting their boxy old ground is more intimidating than Anfield. Everton cannot possibly relocate to some soulless supermarket car park in Kirkby after that."

"Everton are going to Kirkby, their fans will eventually become as quiet and respectful as Liverpool?s, and Portsmouth, Birmingham, Fulham and West Ham will be left as the only Premier League grounds where anything like the old raucousness remains."

"It is also regrettable but true that most clubs outside the major cities have trouble filling their grounds, and swathes of unoccupied plastic seats do nothing to promote atmosphere either inside stadiums or on television."

"Yet because Everton are on the cusp of a move and because most of their supporters oppose it (whatever club surveys may say), Bill Kenwright and his board have a chance to stand up for the soul of English football. If financial imperatives insist the club must relocate to a Kirkby trading estate, then so be it. They will move in the full knowledge that such grounds are unpopular with fans and players and they will be leaving behind at Goodison much of what is distinctively Everton."

It?s about massive stakes and long-term effects on our fanbase that are impossible to predict until it?s too late. it?s about the heart and soul of Everton Football Club.

That municipal boundary may seem like a small issue but it?s not for those who feel as though we?ll be handing the City over to Liverpool. Even if it were, it?s just one of many problems with the Kirkby proposal.

Steve Stott
4   Posted 22/01/2008 at 08:05:50

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Mediocre stadium on what evidence do you base that comment on. As far as I’m aware, Everton have appointed architects who designed stadia for Germany World Cup & wasn’t that deemed a success. Call me naive but personally I don’t see any problems with Kirkby proposal at all. We have to move, Liverpool Council don’t want to know - I don’t buy into handing city over to Liverpool - I think they have enough problems of their own to take that on board.
I know we’ll agree to disagree on this but that’s personal opinion. I’ve no doubt the debate will continue.
Nick Entwistle
5   Posted 22/01/2008 at 09:03:05

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Architects have a remit to work to.

There’s a difference between designing for a government backed largest single sporting event in the world and all that goes with it, and Keith Wyness et al playing lego with Tesco.

Besides, the vast majority of money comes from TV now. I’d like figures on what percentile increase the Kirkby stadium would give us...
Steve Lyth
6   Posted 22/01/2008 at 09:12:29

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You just dont get it Mr Baker do you.
Its going to be a shitty retail park stadium, not good enough for EFC or its supporters.
Here we go again !!!
Jay Houghton
7   Posted 22/01/2008 at 09:05:23

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Okay, lets forget about the boundary issue for a minute, and about the distance from the city centre, and even about the lies, damn, lies and statistics.

Instead lets talk about how we (the fans) will get to the club. Kirkby has an infrastructure commensurate with its size, not much more than one road in one road out. The fans will not be allowed to use the tesco carpark, so it we will largely be bussed in from somewhere and then bussed out again afterwards. And what happens when we increase the capacity to 75,000 - or was that just a lie?

Whilst this might work, imagine how easy it would be to get into town, have a few drinks and then walk to the ground?

Maybe I?m worrying far too much about the whole thing, but for those travelling from Liverpool it will be harder on the whole to get to Kirkby, and for those travelling from outside Liverpool, while the motorway links might be better, the parking isn?t, so again it will be harder to get to.

Will this reduce the size of the crowds? Will the 10 games a season fan find they are only going to 5 games a season? will as many fans bother with a mid-week game?

Maybe I?m worrying about nothing, maybe its try that Goodison is going to fall down in the next five years, and maybe its true that in that time we will not be able to find an alternative site, but so far no one has given me a coherent and beleivable argument otherwise.

Yes, I?d like us to all just go along with the party line, just accept that Wyness is telling the only truth, but this is my club we are talking about and we are all concerned for its future, so to give up and try to accept something that doesn?t feel right is impossible to do.

Steve Foster
8   Posted 22/01/2008 at 09:14:02

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Lyndon, the article says

"They will move in the full knowledge that such grounds are unpopular with fans and players"

I believe the opposite, from what I?ve read from players I think a lot of them extended their contracts / signed for us knowing that the club was planning to build a new stadium, and took it as a sign of an ambitious club.

As for the fans, well you cant ignore the facts, we voted yes.
Danny Mullally
9   Posted 22/01/2008 at 09:09:40

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Brian Baker,

You say:
"Just pause for a few minutes, take a deep breath and stop thinking about how this move affects you and think about what’s good for the club. The club will not implode with its fans deserting in droves by moving 4 poxy miles down the road."

Well I have news for you, I didnt pause for a few minutes, I paused for days when the announcement about kirkby came into the public domain. And no matter how long or hard I thought, the fact remains that we are making the biggest mistake in the clubs history by moving to Kirkby.

I challenge you Brian to pause for a few minutes, to think about the magnitude of moving Everton FC-the first club in Liverpool- the Peoples club-a historical giant in the top flight of the English game-who’s club motto is Nil Satis Nisi Optiimum- I challenge you to qualify that second rate shed of a so called stadium in a prefab as good enough.

Alls that most of us in the "no" camp want, is for the board to be upfront and honest about the alternatives that they alledgedly explored. I do not agree with all that KEIOC do, but I agree a hell of a lot more with them than I do with the Board-Wyness in particular.
Every time a statement is released by the board regarding the move, it stinks of propaganda bullshit, half-truths and fantasy figures.
I have thought about this issue longer and harder than any issue I have ever thought about in my life, so do not insult my intelligence by telling me it is only 4 miles.
We planning on moving out of a city currently attracting the most commercial investment in the whole of the UK mainland.
History speaks for itself when you look at the early nineties Manchester city centre development, investment spills out into the surrounding areas of the city centre for many years following. Our board are too short sighted and unambitious to lead the club on the crest of this wave.
Instead they see a get rich quick franchise with the Tesco bandwagon.
Our recent on field success has brought us to the brink of something special, It wouldn’t surprise me that the "Everton" way kicks in and we shoot ourselves in the foot again and damage our long term future by moving out of Liverpool.

It is you Brian who needs to wake up mate, take a long look at Lyndon’s post and see whether you still believe we have not thought about this move.
Bill Dean
10   Posted 22/01/2008 at 09:24:25

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Steve, read the planning application submitted by EFC, a "mid level stadium with basic facilities". What has happened to the fantastic arena that will be the envy of all quoted by KW. Lyndon, absolutely spot on mate, were being sold down the river. Lets hear some proper financial solutions for redeveloping GP not that load of crap KSS did, even if we have to move across the park for a season and paint the whole ground blue ! Wouldnt that get up their noses
Seamus Murphy
11   Posted 22/01/2008 at 10:00:11

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"All I have heard so far are arguments from a few selfish fans who are moaning about having to catch an extra bus or Mersey train to get to the new ground and the colour of the wheelie bins parked outside the new ground"

No offence mate but thats bullshit. There have been a lot of valid points made on this site and elsewhere against the move to Kirkby but to highlight your point you just pick up on the colour of the wheelie bins???
Steve Stott
12   Posted 22/01/2008 at 09:56:13

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Danny Mullally,As I said at the end of my last comment:-

"I know we?ll agree to disagree on this but that?s personal opinion. I?ve no doubt the debate will continue"

You have made comments I strongly disagree with - you believe KEIOC before the Everton Board that’s your perogative - personally I think KEIOC have behaved appallingly on this issue & continue to do so I think by their actions they have sullied the great name of Everton just as much as you think BK & KW have - different opinions again. I think the TESCO bandwagon is a great piece of investment - one of the top companies in UK if not the world very little (if any) debt associated with it. What more investment do you want (Sh... or Man U experience I don’t). Yes there is major investment coming into Liverpool but the Council is doing its best to ruin it - it’s not bending over backwards to keep Everton in the so called City boundaries is it. I will be more inclined to take notice of the "No camp" if they came up with sensible, properly thought out and financed alternatives to Kirkby & please don’t insult my intelligence by suggesting "The Loop".

My opinion different to yours - you believe you are right I believe I am the future will decide who is.
Brian Baker
13   Posted 22/01/2008 at 10:17:34

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Hi Lyndon

You make some good points, but on what do you base your statement, that most fans opose the move to Kirkby?

I also think the financial argument for moving to Kirkby is atrong one. Building the stadium elsewher in the city would increase the clubs debt and reduce the oportunity to spend more on the playing squad. From a financial point of view our partnerships with Tesco and Knowlsey CC are ideal and would mean our move to Kirkby would not leave the club with huge debts.

The money needed for the new Anfield, on the other hand, would leave Liverpool with debts in excess of £500 million pounds. Is that a situation we want to be in?
Karl Masters
14   Posted 22/01/2008 at 11:08:08

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Steve Stott: Yes, you are naive!

Kirkby will be very unlike the Cologne stadium it is supposedly based on. It is a cheaper version with a number of fundamental differences.

Those differences include: Much wider open spaces in the corner and no standing behind the goal. This will significantly reduce the atmosphere. Wyness cited the atmosphere at Cologne as the whole reason he chose this sort of layout. It isn’t, it’s because it’s the cheapest way of building with no overlapping tiers. His atmosphere comment is nonsense.

You are naive to think that anything other than saving money and doing it on the cheap is behind this design proposal. Tesco will have insisted on it to include us in their plans even though they need us to push it through. You are naive to think Supermarket designers can design something that somebody like HOK could have designed.

Sadly, the penny will only drop when you are sat in it. After all the times it has been shown that BK and KW have ’fibbed’ to put it very mildly, you are naive to trust them implicitly. Not because they are corrupt, but because you naively trust that they know what they are doing on every subject. Maybe they don’t? They got it right with Moyesie, but that dosn’t make them infallible.
Brian Baker
15   Posted 22/01/2008 at 11:50:45

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Karl the old Wembley had the souless design you talk about, with seating miles from the goals, but did it lack atmosphere?

I have been to GP for mid-week league cup tie during the low point of the Colin Harvey reign and it was like being at a training match.

So stadium design is only partly responsible for the atmosphere in a stadium. Most of the atmosphere comes from the fans.
Tom Hughes
16   Posted 22/01/2008 at 11:04:32

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Our situation is completely different to LFC’s for several reasons, so I’m not sure about your analogy. However, you talk about increased debt, surely finding £80-100m+ for Kirkby, compared to £20-30m to create 50,000 seats (15,000 new ones) at Gp is more debt. GP doesn’t need to be redeveloped in one go. Improvements can be made as and when finances/success/demand dictates. whereas Kirkby needs the lot up front, how do we finance to that level and maintain improvements on the pitch..... especially if the turnouts aren’t as projected. The worse case senario of similar or even reduced gates with that kind of debt would leave is in a very dangerous position surely?!

The Boundary issue is only one of many. It is important, although I am not sure how anyone could quantify its effect on how the club is perceived in the future and the loss of heritage, and therefore how much our identity is changed. Suffice to say much that we associate with our club would be lost forever. That said, similar would apply to a move to Speke which is inside the boundary because we are historically a North end Club, Everton is a district of North Liverpool etc. It could also polarise future generations of Supporters similar to Manchester were the divide is slightly geographical. However, the main point concerns the basic mechanics and logistics of locating a stadium. Peripheral sites practically always have significantly less Public transport capacity. They are also at the ends of these networks therefore reducing their effectiveness further. The continous reference to Kirkby as only 4 miles away doesn’t do the problems any kind of justice. A hint at the magnitude of the problem should be the planner’s last ditch notion of arranging the biggest Park and ride scheme in the country since Kirkby simply cannot handle this influx by road and the public transport is grossly inadequate. No-one, including the club refute this. Your dismissal of people’s concerns about additional train/bus journeys so flippantly is remarkable, less convenience will effect support, changing buses/trains etc adds to journey times considerably, especially when so many others are vying for these limited seats. I travelled to Kirkby for 6 years by every mode of transport, and was involved in the desins for Merseytram, and am very familiar with the transport issues. It is probably the least accessible part of the whole area from the main conurbation. Next to no districts have direct bus/train routes to Kirkby, whereas Walton is at the convergence of all branchlines of the Northern Line with several major arterial, cross-city and ring-road routes within walking distance, and of course is more central and nearer to mainline and Wirral line train networks. This can NEVER be matched at Kirkby, not even remotely. Park and ride will require in excess of 100 buses and drivers to clear the stadium and it will still take well over 1 hour. Merseytravel has been deregulated for over 20 years and currently struggles to provide half a dozen soccerbuses, so where these are going to be supplied from is anyone’s guess. In the US, the home of auto culture, they tried the out-of-town stadia route in the 50’s-70’s, they are currently knocking them down to build downtown, since they have found that the increased amenities and readily available mass public transport networks have increased attendances and profile massively. Kirkby is completely the opposite. This combined with the manipulation of the facts, the hard sell and the whole process that has been undergone since this was first revealed has had the alarm bells ringing with most discerning blues from day 1. This ticks no-one’s location box but Tescos. We are essentially getting 4 stands for the cost of 3. Is that really a good reason to test all those other unknowns, and leave all that we have?
Tom Hughes
17   Posted 22/01/2008 at 12:05:40

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Steve Stott,

"Everton have appointed architects who designed stadia for Germany World Cup & wasn?t that deemed a success."

This is yet another example of the tangled web of myths surrounding this proposal. The Architects for Kirkby had nothing to do with the German World cup stadia. The club made the comparison with Cologne, and people have bought into it to the point that we are now getting the Allianz arena. Barr designed the Kirkby stadium, with KSS advising on fit-out etc. Check out Barr’s portfolio!! They are no HOK.
Jay Harris
18   Posted 22/01/2008 at 11:59:36

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I am getting bored making these points over and over again but Kirkby(the town) only has the infrastructure for 40000 people.
Liverpool has the infrastructure for 1 million people including bars,restaurants,,roads,public transport and it is possible to walk from the city centre to our current home.
Tesco,Knowsley council nor EFC have the money/desire to put this in place.
Secondly would you trust anybody who says the money will be in the bank tomorrow (Fortress sport fund),who says the loop willl not work and then is presented with world class engineeers(who have built stadia all over the world)report saying a 55000 seater stadium is viable and immediately says it has to hold 75000.Who also said the new stadium will cost about 15mill covered by selling GP and then announces it will cost between 80 to 100 mill plus.
I could go on about ticket/travel fiascos.NTL,Kings dock etc but I know I am wasting my time as people seem to be in one camp or the other.
But do any of the yes camp understand that there would not be such a division in opinion if EFC came up with a more realistic option than being the support act for a Tesco store built on an out of town backwater on the cheap by amateurs in stadium design.
Jay Harris
19   Posted 22/01/2008 at 12:52:59

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And we could get you Damian to make the tea and Wyness and bullshit Billy to tell us stories to send us to sleep.
Peter Roberts
20   Posted 22/01/2008 at 12:59:43

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Jay, no need to employ BK and KW, they already do that as part of their job description.

Having said that, I find it hard to believe some of the rubbish the conspiracy theo... sorry, no-voters are spouting. The last thing I want this club to do is be crippled by debt and reduce ourselves to also-rans going back to fighting for relegation. However, we do need to move as Goodison is creaking. LCC haven?t provided us with a suitable alternative, and as far as I?m concerned, never will because they?re too busy with the CoC and LFC that we?re merely an afterthought. So I see the move to Kirkby as the ultimate show of two fingers to the council - relatively cheap in comparison so the impact on club finances are relatively small, but still a vast improvement on the current facilities. That for me is good enough.

I wish people would just give up on the debate. We have a clear split down the Everton support and everyone?s made their bed and are lying in it. No amount of debate is ever going to sway people over to the other side, even after we?ve moved into the Value Dome. So please stop the bickering because it?s driving me insane.
Steve Lyth
21   Posted 22/01/2008 at 13:17:14

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Damian, thats just it tho, Tom and Jay speak a lot of sense were as Wyness is a proven bullshitter.
As you where.
Tony Williams
22   Posted 22/01/2008 at 13:40:07

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Fookin ’ell Jay, I wouldn’t go for a pre match bevy with you in town. You can walk from the town centre to our ground!!!!!!!!

Good luck with that mate. If I was having a bevy in O’Neil for instance I would have to leave about 2:00 to get to the ground for kick off.

And of course there would be such a division between fans if another option was put forward because there is always the "moaning bastard" faction that everyone has to deal with when dealing with important issues.

A lot of the No’s would still moan that we are leaving Goodison and that won’t change but again a lot of Yes’s would probably find a reasonb to moan.

People moan, unfortunately and the board will never get it 100% right, no-one will ever.

The split with regards to Kirkby is effective down to the Board for allowing us, a gang of irrational, emotional reprobates, to vote for such a move. I find it disgusting that they put it onto us and not just told us.
Steve Stott
23   Posted 22/01/2008 at 13:35:07

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I don’t remember saying in either of my comments that Kirkby stadium is another Allianz Arena nor am I naive enough to believe it will be (alhough I’d love it to be). What does concern me is that some of you still believe Goodison can be developed in chunks (how & what happens in the meantime with greatly reduced income, share with the Sh... or do an Arsenal of years ago & paint faces on a wall). As for The Loop cram as many people in, have walkways & tunnels (health & safety anyone) but more fundamentally then that find someone to finance it - not exactly banging at the doors are they & please don’t insult my intelligence & suggest Bestway(no doubt they are sincere but able to finance such a scheme no way).

I’ve never said Kirkby is above reproach & yes I’d love an Old Trafford but neither do I want it to happen when it would leave us £500M plus in debt & at the personal whim of some egomaniac (Glazers, Abramovich, Laurel & Hardy at the Sh... take your pick). Neither do I blindly believe everything BK or KW say at times they’ve let themselves down badly (Fortress fiasco for one although I do believe that was BK’s misguided attempt to get rid of Gregg). Neither do I disbelieve everything they say as some of the contributors here do.
As I’ve continually said someone one come up with a properly designed fully costed and financed alternative to Kirkby and I’ll happily consider it - I’m still waiting.
Phil Bellis
24   Posted 22/01/2008 at 14:01:53

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Hi Tony W...yep it’s about 45mins walk from Gwladys St to Lime St Station. Quite a regular hike for us south-enders during the bus strike years ago. If it’s extra time and penalties tomorrow, Runcorn / Winsford/Crewe rail travellers will have to leg it to get to the station for 23.20. Ah, the joys of public transport!
Les Smith
25   Posted 22/01/2008 at 13:51:03

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Brian Baker
If Everton had moved to Kirkby before 1st April 1974 we wouldn’t be having this argument now!
Kirkby was created an Urban District Council in 1958 having been in Lancashire. As far as I am aware Kirkby UDC was never administered by Liverpool City Council and has never been part of Liverpool. It certainly wasn?t when I worked in Roughwood School (1962 to 1965).
However, though you make distance from Goodison to the location of the Kirkby Cowshed the central point in your post its an argument that should have been kicked into touch long ago.
In comparison to moving towards the Liverpool City centre a location in Kirkby is juat a non-starter from every rational point of view.
I disagree with almost the whole of your article and note that you must have been having doubts about it to have concluded with the words;
-even in Kirkby.
Everton is a great club with great supporters, who will always be great.
Peter Fearon
26   Posted 22/01/2008 at 14:14:25

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I am old enough to have been watching Everton week in week out in 1974 and if, back in 1974, or 84, or 94 for that matter, I had suggested leaving Liverpool, moving to Kirkby, setting up shop in a retail park in one of the most economically and socially troubled towns in the north west, leaving behind not one brick or smear of mortar connecting Everton with its roots in the city, most Evertonians would have thought the idea crazy. Because it is. I am resigned to the fact that it is going to happen, because Everton is now contractually committed to it. But that doesn’t change its disastrous and divisive nature. The very fact that Liverpool fans are rightly celebrating our departure should raise a red flag - or a a blue flag - with some of the rabid Kirkby Wanderers fans but it apparently doesn’t. I predict within five seasons of the move you won’t be able to find one fan of the Kirkby Peoiples Club who still admits voting to leave the city.
Brad Linaker
27   Posted 22/01/2008 at 13:58:12

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I don?t want to get into the whole Kirkby is the way forward or Kikby is the death of us debate (even though i voted yes) . But i would like to put forward a view that Everton Football has not put forward for their argument so here is a link to a page which states Uefa policy for 4 and 5 star stadia which most clubs developing stadiums want to comply with. It states things like the standard size of playing surface, the distance the crowd has to be from the pitch, a certain number of hospitality lounges to be available, facilities for the disabled. This is something that the Kikby plans do cover even if the submitted application says basic facilities.
Tom Hughes
28   Posted 22/01/2008 at 14:00:30

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apologies for the cut and paste..... but here you go:

"I don?t remember saying in either of my comments that Kirkby stadium is another Allianz Arena nor am I naive enough to believe it will be (alhough I?d love it to be)."

You said the architects were responsible for one of the German World cup stadia, giving them credibility on that stage. This is not true! The designers for Kirkby are more Warrington RLFC standard than Bayern Munich

"What does concern me is that some of you still believe Goodison can be developed in chunks (how & what happens in the meantime with greatly reduced income, share with the Sh... or do an Arsenal of years ago & paint faces on a wall)."

Stadium construction/design has come a long way since the early 90’s and the new North stand at Highbury. It has been shown by various people that GP can be redeveloped with no sustained reduction in capacity, starting at the Park end. Ipswich did precisely that by replacing the end single tiered stands with double-deckers. Also an enabling scheme at this end could release a major chunk of funding to help finance this initial stage. Losses due to subsequent phases therefore being offset by this initial increased capacity. This has been done many times and is one of the reasons why redevelopment is still the most common way forward.

"As for The Loop cram as many people in, have walkways & tunnels (health & safety anyone)"

Emirates is bound by two converging railwaylines and is only fully accessible on one side. With only a bridge on the other. The loop is currently fully accessible on its entire eastern edge, with cheap partial or full cut and cover on the south side offering much greater access than the emirates and several other well known stadia.

"but more fundamentally then that find someone to finance it - not exactly banging at the doors are they & please don?t insult my intelligence & suggest Bestway(no doubt they are sincere but able to finance such a scheme no way)."

EFC have admitted that we are expected to finance 3/4 of this stadium in Kirkby. How are we going to do that? Bestway are a private company who’s owner is worth considerably more than our club. They can do whatever takes their fancy, and the City planners believe enabling developments can also work for this high profile site. We are continually told that Tesco are a multi-billion pound organisation who can afford anything, how come we’re still having to stump up what would be small change to them? They are not a private company and couldn’t justify this outlay to their shareholders. All their influence has got us one standfor free.....maybe! We were supposed to be getting the lot apart from the seats for "practically nothing". I mean, who is insulting who’s intelligence!!??

"I?ve never said Kirkby is above reproach & yes I?d love an Old Trafford but neither do I want it to happen when it would leave us £500M plus in debt & at the personal whim of some egomaniac (Glazers, Abramovich, Laurel & Hardy at the Sh... take your pick)."

Who has mentioned £500m with regards our situation..... even Wyness hasn’t pushed the myths that far.....give him time though.

"Neither do I blindly believe everything BK or KW say at times they?ve let themselves down badly (Fortress fiasco for one although I do believe that was BK?s misguided attempt to get rid of Gregg). Neither do I disbelieve everything they say as some of the contributors here do.
As I?ve continually said someone one come up with a properly designed fully costed and financed alternative to Kirkby and I?ll happily consider it - I?m still waiting."

EFC still haven’t put a final cost on Kirkby...... 6 months after the vote, yet you want similar from ordinary blues. GFE did it 10 years ago, where was that option on the ballot sheet? How come the KSS feesibilty study for redevelopment is dated 4 months after the vote, when this option was supposed to have been dismissed over a year ago?
Chad Schofield
29   Posted 22/01/2008 at 13:37:51

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Absolutely Lyndon fantastically put.
Mr Baker, have you got some kind deal going on with club points? I understand people trying to put their point across, but seriously you can’t compare a national arena like Wembley to our current or future ground.
What is annoying is the amount of half-truths being belted out by the pro-Kirkby bunch. Do we really want to make a massive expensive mistake? Of course there will always be a few who object out of principle, but people are making extremely valid points and having them dismissed simply because "we need to move"... Nothing is going to change there for at least 10-15 years, so if as is in another column acoustics and character are not well thought out then we have to lump it, as will the next generation of supporters.
The "Riverside? anyone?
John Lloyd
30   Posted 22/01/2008 at 14:58:07

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If you try to leave opinions to one side about what are (at present) trivial issues such as:- kirkby v walton, amenities, distance from town/or goodison, whether kirkby is liverpool or not, food & toilet qualities & even potential revenue increase.

If you then concentrate only on facts, then how you think Kirkby can be a good thing baffles me??? Tom Hughes has spelt it out better than I could just above, read the facts, do your research. Not projections or lies or opinions. Just doesnt add up people.

I know people who voted yes only want what they believe is best for our club, as do no voters but if we stick to the facts then we may get on a little better than at present, Kirkby is not the right thing to do, I honestly from the bottom of my heart believe this.
Brian Baker
31   Posted 22/01/2008 at 14:58:26

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Hi Chad
I wasn’t comparing the old Wembley with our proposed new stadium, I was citing it as an example of an old stadium, not purpose built for football, but yet on occasions, like an FA Cup final had atmosphere. In other words, atmosphere at a football match is created by the fans, not the construction of the stadium.
There are some matches I have been to at GP that have lacked atmosphere, which was nothing to do with how the old lady was built.
Brad Linaker
32   Posted 22/01/2008 at 15:27:12

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Further to my earlier e-mail here is a link to FIFA?s requirements for new stadia this report discourages clubs from redeveloping old land locked grounds like Goodison and encourages football teams to build on open spacious grounds.
Dave Lynch
33   Posted 22/01/2008 at 15:51:13

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All you yes voters:
When we do move and the gates are pathetically low, who will you blame for the loss of revenue and the demise of the team ?
I can hear you now.
It will be the stay away fans fault won?t it ?
Churn out all the old they are not real Evertonians .........
Believe me, this will be the death of us.
Greg Murphy
34   Posted 22/01/2008 at 15:45:28

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Like Lyndon my stance against Kirkby is nothing to do with geographical boundaries, Brian, because to me it’s more a question of profile and visibility, neither of which Kirkby boasts and a large reason for that is due to the way the town has been treated as a bolt-on, after-thought, second cousin, "out there", embarrassing inferiority when compared to the other superior, favoured-child constituencies that make up the rest of Knowsley Council.

However, seeing as though you’ve played the 1974/ Ted Heath/ Liverpool Corporation card, then it’s only right to provide a bit of balance.

It’s a fact that the peoples of Whiston, Prescot, Halewood, Knowsley Village and Huyton had absolutely no wish or desire to be bracketed or associated with run-down Liverpool in the 1974 political chicanery (the same type of attitude that prevails to this day on Wirral and in Southport-cum-Preston).

They also wanted nothing to do with Kirkby (eeeugh).

It suited the putative "Biccford Council" (the intended name for the new authority, named after the two largest employers; at least until someone with some common sense decided to use the ancient name of Knowsley - but, hey, they were never gonna use Kirkby which is even older, because of all its perceived negativities).

Moreover, if you wish to deconstruct the 1974 act, then you must revert to calling the Kirkby and Melling areas as "Altside" not "Merseyside", for the latter - in a purely political entity which is what you base your argument on - was purely a creation of all that happened back then. Merseyside was a notion not an entity back then.

So is Kirkby in Merseyside or Altside? If it’s the former, then you have to make a nod to 1974. But if the events of 1974 - as you suggest - carry no weight, then Kirkby and Melling are on Altside. Silly isn’t it?

A silly as citing that Liverpool Corporation "controlled" Kirkby back then. Well technically it did, but it’s probably more correct to say that it "owned" huge tracts of land on Altside (i.e. Kirkby) for the sole purpose of re-relocating people from the slum areas of Liverpool. By the same token, though, Liverpool Corporation also purchased a reservoir in North Wales (created after a whole town was scandalously flooded - Vrynwy) for the sole purpose of providing fresh water to the city. So, by the same reasoning, then, there’s a part of Denbighshire that is in Liverpool because the Corpy once bought it!

You could go round-and-round and argue all day long that Knowsley and Kirkby is spiritually part of Liverpool (don’t tell that to Prescotians, though) but it’s highly indicative that you can drive right throughout the borough right now and you won’t find a single banner proclaiming Liverpool as the Capital of Culture (they stop on the Lancs as you head toward the M57 - which is most odd seeing as though, according to some, you’re still in Liverpool at that point).

At the same time, though, Knowsley Council is quite happy to bask in the reflected glory of the Capital of Culture (just don’t ask any of its residents to cough up for it via the Council Tax - for that’s when you really will find whether Kirkby or Knowsley is in Liverpool!).

No, Brian, Knowsley, historically, concerning its association with Liverpool, wants all of the rights and none of the responsibilities. It runs away from any association with the city as soon as the going gets tough.

As I said at the start, though (and perhaps KEIOC should have thought about its name a little longer) for many, including me, it’s not about boundaries, whether they be real, arbitrary or perceived.

It’s about profile - and Kirkby (sadly) hasn’t got that and is therefore no place for EFC to be. A large reason for that lack of profile is because for far too long Kirkby has scandalously been the last in the queue with the begging bowl when Knowsley has been dishing out its largesse.

It’s up to Knowsley Council to raise the profile of Kirkby - not Everton Football Club.

David Shankland
35   Posted 22/01/2008 at 16:13:00

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Still not seen any viable plans or financing of alternatives.
Tom Hughes
36   Posted 22/01/2008 at 16:40:40

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Dave, have you seen any for Kirkby? If you have seen how we raise the £80-100m for 3 of the 4 new stands in Kirkby, then just apply the same logic for one or 2 at GP. Not to mention an enabling scheme on land we own at GP. Have you seen the transport strategy for Kirkby? How do you feel it compares to GP, that we all know has worked for over a century?
Steve Stott
37   Posted 22/01/2008 at 16:49:29

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If I get chance I will endeavour to respond to your comments to my last input but I’m in the process of moving home (some 150 or so miles not 4 or 5!) so have other priorities at the moment.

I notice in your latest response though you again mention The Loop but as as been mentioned before who is going to fund it & for that matter re-development of Goodison. You say it can be done by enabling schemes & developments but I’ve yet to see any evidence that these can be put in place. Please give me an alternative with requisite elements on board & I’ll consider it.
Tom Hughes
38   Posted 22/01/2008 at 17:04:34

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Trevor Skempton is the consultant Architect for the Grosvenor project. He works with the city planning department, and has been involved with the major developments in the city centre. The Loop is his brainchild. The city planners were very excited by this idea, enough so to also enthuse Bestway who are on the site, and felt optomistically enough to commission a study by the world’s largest stadium design group. The city planning department is now the busiest outside of London, with in total multi-billion pound schemes going through their office. They say enabling schemes are viable for this site, and this quite frankly is their bread and butter..... but it all falls down if the Club aren’t interested. As far as redevelopment of GP is concerned, in simple terms if we now need to find £80-100m for Kirkby then we can find similar for GP, only at GP we don’t need the full amount up front. Trevor Skempton has also looked at enabling schemes at the rear of a new Parkend stand to built above the car park. This also has had a good response from the planning department. Meanwhile the Kirkby scheme contravenes Knowsley’s own UDP and has now been objected to by all the surrounding councils.
Tony Williams
39   Posted 22/01/2008 at 17:30:35

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Playing Devil’s Advocate Dave Lynch, who else would you blame if the gates were low other than the stay away fans?

Shall we blame the ones that are there still paying their season ticket amounts or travelling from around the country, somethimes the world, to see the club they love, when you get the disgruntled Country Road drinker vowing never to go the game again because he can’t have a bevy in the Chepstow up until 2:40 and walk the ground.
Tom Hughes
40   Posted 22/01/2008 at 17:47:30

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Or shall we blame the club who opted for a site on the edge of the city with all its added inconvenience, in an era when modern stadia planning trends worldwide are favouring downtown locations. People have the right to do whatever with their entrance fee. If the new experience/location or whatever doesn’t appeal we can’t make people attend. We are only a captrive audience to a certain degree. If people can go their local and watch it, or go to a place with less accessibility, and little attraction in its environs with guaranteed delays many might choose the easier option..... that’s human nature, only a few percent are home and away diehards.
Greg Murphy
41   Posted 22/01/2008 at 17:55:52

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Dave Shankland - it’s not our job to provide viable, costed alternatives. One reason we can’t do so is because we’re not fully au-fait with all of the club’s finances and behind-the-scenes activities. All that we can do is comment, either positively or negatively (in my case the latter) on the option that has been put before us by the club, on which it has concentrated almost exclusively for two years.

Not our job to propose alternatives - it’s Mr Wyness’. And he’s not prepared to do so. Fair enough, he wants us to go to Kirkby.

I don’t. I reserve the right to be able to say so without having to then table a viable alternative.
Dave Wilson
42   Posted 22/01/2008 at 18:05:21

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Tony Williams
I havent been in the chepstow for 20 years, prefer the brick meself, you can get another bevy and leave at 2-50, try getting a life lad
Kirby wont happen
Jay Harris
43   Posted 22/01/2008 at 18:16:07

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you?ve been making the case so well I haven't been able to add anything except my support to the anti-Kirkby lobby and reiterate my earlier comments that this huge didvide in supporters' feelings toward the ground move would be stopped in one foul swoop by Wyness and BS Billy agreeing to consider alternatives and look at something the HUGE majority of REAL supporters really want.

For those who keep knocking the costs of staying in L?pool especially the loop I think its very shortsighted. The amount to build a stadium is the same wherever you go give or take a small proportion for groundwork. Its the return on investment thats the key to enable investors and financial support.

Does anybody in their right mind think Kirkby can generate more income than a city site (e.g. the Loop or GP) or is more attractive to investors. There are much bigger companies than Tesco?s who would love to link up with EFC and despite popular opinion Bestway group are not that small either.
EFC just needs to show a bit of willing and LCC and other investors will come knocking.
Dave Lynch
44   Posted 22/01/2008 at 18:25:01

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Tony it has nothing to do with getting a bevvy.
So don’t come up with a petty insignificant point as that.
It’s about soul, identity, heritage and history.
If you have none of those feelings for your football club then i pity you my freind.
Mark Stone
45   Posted 22/01/2008 at 18:26:02

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What I don’t understand is; if the only financial benefit of moving with Tesco is that the plot of land would be paid for - then what is paying for the stadium itself? If we already own the land that Goodison is on, wouldn’t it be cheaper to renovate a pre exisitng stadium than to build a whole new one? Add to that, a stadium in Liverpool would generate a lot more revenue than one in Kirkby. So to me it seems more financially realistic to stay at Goodison - and couldn’t we sell the naming rights to Goodison? Maybe not something that would be welcomed by many fans but I’m sure they’d rather be playing at Chang Stadium in Walton than the Tesco Value Dome in Kirkby?

I may be a million miles off here and I’m not trying to suggest that I know anything of the economics of the deal - but reading the report that came out recently this was the first thing that jumped out at me.
Tony Marsh
46   Posted 22/01/2008 at 18:49:01

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Only 4 miles? ? what the fuck has that got to do with anything? When will it sink in to you people? It has nothing to do with mileage away from Goodison Park but the distance from the city center. Also, it sends out the wrong signals to investors and these so-called new fans the Board want to attract. Why oh fucking why would anyone want to drag themselves through the ordeal of getting from Lime Street to Kirkby every other week? Oh and by the way if you haven't already been told' the new ground will be on a supermarket carpark on a retail park. Some fucking attraction that is mate.
Jay Harris
47   Posted 22/01/2008 at 18:56:21

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if its you?
Welcome on board.
I?ve missed your to the point views recently.
It does seem as if some people genuinely believe that Tesco is Father Xmas and Kirkby is to become the new Mecca of Sport.
But if you blindly believe what Billy Liar and Wyness tell you what else can you expect.
Andy Macfarlane
48   Posted 22/01/2008 at 18:50:00

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God give me the strength to keep logging into this website where I can read reports and opinions about our Team, and engage in sensible dialogue, whilst trying to ignore the temptation never to enter it again to suffer having to read the negative, facile, insulting and abusive drivel that infects it whenever the more "closed minded" no voters grab the opportunity to peddle their illogical bile.

I complement Lyndon and all of his ilk in the "no vote" camp for his reasoned arguments and obvious passion for our Club, but for others, the arrogant assumption that anything that is stated by Keith Wyness and Bill Kenwright or Tsecos, or the various experts supporting the Kirkby plan is "lies and bullshit", whereas any figures or opinions thrown into the arena to contradict them is "truth" is blind, ignorant, fanaticism of an Al Quaeda depth. By the way, even as a yes voter, I am mulling over a negative thought. If we win the carling Cup this year, I am longing to relive the days of the parade from Speke to Town.. St Georges Hall plateau etc. Where the fuck would we "parade to" if we were in Kirkby. hmm. You see, like many yes voters, I am NOT blind to the downside, and I WOULD leave the City only after I am convinced that there is no alternative. AND, I?m not stupid, or gullible, or not well versed in business economics, or not a "traitor",before some angry "no voter" acuses me of being so.

Paul Power
49   Posted 22/01/2008 at 19:12:00

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Tom Hughes- I know you must be getting bored of repeating yourself but my hat is off to you for trying to talk sense into some of these dumb pricks... please keep it up - you are the voice of reason and if Kirkby goes through I will remember you as one of the guys who REALLY tried to save us...

To Yes voters I say this - please make sure you attend EVERY home game if we end up in Kirkby - and please all get season tickets in Row A so the stadium doesnt look as empty as it is - Im sick of this fucking argument and wish the whole Kirkby thing would just fuck off and die - then we could concentrate on whats imprtant - the biggest game in 12 years tomorrow night !

50   Posted 22/01/2008 at 19:28:29

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thanks, Paul. QED
Bill Murphy
51   Posted 22/01/2008 at 18:49:29

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My opinion is that, if people want to keep the club in the city, then you have to come up with something interesting. The Kirkby deal is very good financially. How are Everton going to pay for the stadium if we build it in Scotland Road? We are getting a major deal from Tesco but would we get the same amount of money if we would build it in the city?

It´s not enough to find a spot for the stadium; if you want to keep it in the city you have to find something that will get us the same amount of money from someone, because we all know that Everton do not have the amount of money that it takes to build a stadium on their own.

You are always talking about the parking space in Kirkby, but what about the parking space if the stadium would be in the Scotland Road or somewhere else in the city? Where are you planning on putting them?

So if you don´t come up with a better plan than Scotland Road or rebuilding Goodison Park, then I think you have got a lost case! It´s just simple as that.

Or are you maybe willing to pay for the stadium from your own pocket?

Of course Everton want to keep it in the city, but the facts are that the Kirkby deal is finincally the best opiton (yet) and we need a new stadium as quickly as posible so we don´t get left behind by the big teams, and the teams around us. And therefore Kirkby is the only option. Unless you find something better.

So i challenge you all that hate the Kirkby stadium to come up with an idea to stop them from moving there! And if you don´t do that, then Kirkby it is! It´s just simple as that.

Paul Gladwell
52   Posted 22/01/2008 at 19:46:51

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I have yet in all these arguements seen anyone come anywhere near giving Tom Hughes a run for his money.
Why ? unlike the vast majority on this site he has experience in this line of work.
The mans only objective in all this is he only wants whats right for his beloved club unlike wyness.
Time and again he answers the questions
put to him, yet time and again it falls on death ears.
We all know we need something done , The Bullens Road story the other day reminded us all, however it should be done right and the fact that our fan base for the first time in 130 years is split down the middle with some hatred proves that its being done all so wrong.

Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
53   Posted 22/01/2008 at 20:13:08

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Brian: "on what do you base your statement, that most fans oppose the move to Kirkby?""

That was Paul Wilson’s quote, not any assertion of mine, but while I always expected the "Yes" vote to pass, I do contend that there is a worryingly large percentage of the core, match-going support who are deeply opposed.
Michael Kenrick
54   Posted 22/01/2008 at 20:34:50

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Andy, that?s a fair shout. I?m doing what I can to eradicate comments from the more intolerant ones on either side of this who can no longer debate the issues in a civil manner. And to those I say: take your bile elsewhere, please.

Oh, and let's have a bit less of this "Real Evertonians" rubbish. We are all Evertonians. Use that phrase and your message will be removed. Thank you.

Andy Macfarlane
55   Posted 22/01/2008 at 20:54:02

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Thanks, Michael. I?m not for "censorship", but please, fellow Evertonians, let?s not tear ourselves apart over the debate. Have a bit of respect for opposing views. We are ALL, no doubt, passionate in our devotion to EFC. And here?s a thought.. would even the "no voters", and, even more, the BK, KW "haters/ mistrusters" prefer to be in our shoes than in those of our beloved RS bretheren, who are so far up their own arses that they are shouting for an Arab banking consortium to "buy out" a couple of Texan rednecks to put their club into £500mil + debt on the arrogant assumption that "it?ll be alright. we?ll always fill the new "Burger King/Camel Dome", and we?ll always be near enough to winning the Champions League, so, hey, what?s the problem?" Maybe they don?t do economics in Scandinavia....
Greg Murphy
56   Posted 22/01/2008 at 21:52:08

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I agree about the need to eradicate the more overt slating that goes on. But there are many more subtle examples that can just as easily pass under the radar because they are expletive free: e.g. Brian’s original article refers to fellow Evertonians as "these people".

Not good enough.
Gerard Madden
57   Posted 22/01/2008 at 22:57:25

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Excellent article Brian. Andy Macfarlane, your quote - ’please, fellow Evertonians, let?s not tear ourselves apart over the debate’. It’s alright Andy, i’ve said it before and i’ll simply say it again - I judge that most blues now see the stadium as a boring ’settled’ issue, ’out there’ in the real world away from small messageboards ’n forums people are ’content’ with things, we saw that after the ballot when KEIOC did that unforgettable clarion call for the fanbase to reject the result of the democratic ERS ballot and protest - only a couple o’ dozen turned up! We see it every single week where we still don’t see any regular (or any at all!) protests by thousands of blues - I judge that even most of the ’no’s have moved on. Our new 50,000 (Extendable to 60,000) stadium with its built in Museum/stadium tour and megastore will be one of the best in the country and I and I judge most other blues simply can’t wait!
Tony Williams
58   Posted 22/01/2008 at 22:59:12

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"Tony Williams
I havent been in the chepstow for 20 years, prefer the brick meself, you can get another bevy and leave at 2-50, try getting a life lad
Kirby wont happen"

Please explain why my comments mean I should get a life? Is it because it is at odds to what you think?

"It?s about soul, identity, heritage and history.
If you have none of those feelings for your football club then i pity you my freind"

You see that is where you and I differ, I love Everton FC not a postcode.

"To Yes voters I say this - please make sure you attend EVERY home game if we end up in Kirkby - and please all get season tickets in Row A so the stadium doesnt look as empty as it is"

I intend to be at every home game, no matter where we end up, that’s why I buy a season ticket year after year, to follow Everton not complain about an imaginary boundary.

"People have the right to do whatever with their entrance fee. If the new experience/location or whatever doesn?t appeal we can?t make people attend"

Totally agree about peoples right, however, I tend to save my enjoyment for the game of football I have paid to watch, not the fact that I am in a Liverpool postcode or the warm piss that we get served at half time. The second I walk up those steps into my seat, I couldn’t give a toss if I was in Timbucktoo, as long as I can still watch my team playing togger. That is all I want, to be able to watch the game
Tom Hughes
59   Posted 22/01/2008 at 23:34:51

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"Totally agree about peoples right, however, I tend to save my enjoyment for the game of football I have paid to watch, not the fact that I am in a Liverpool postcode or the warm piss that we get served at half time. The second I walk up those steps into my seat, I couldn?t give a toss if I was in Timbucktoo, as long as I can still watch my team playing togger."That is all I want, to be able to watch the game"

Not sure of your point.....Why can’t you do that at Goodison, isn’t that what you do now? I thought the main reason for moving was so that we could have more fans in the ground to increase income. I think location, transport and the general match day experience on offer will affect people’s choice, we need everyone to attend who does now including the thousands who enjoy their County Rd time-honoured routine, and many thousands more besides and not just those who’ll even go to Timbuktoo. Otherwise EFC will be in a lot of debt!
Tom Davies
60   Posted 22/01/2008 at 23:46:45

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Completely disagree, why do so many fans just care about the business side? And the fact is, Kirkby is outside the boundary, Speke and Garston are not!

Kirkby is actually more than 4 miles if you go by road too!

Other than Goodison there is a perfect site for us, but the board and alot of fans have ignored the famous saying "don’t knock it before you’ve tried it"- investigate more!
Paul McCann
61   Posted 22/01/2008 at 23:59:28

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Paul Gladwell,

I have some experience in this line of work, and I’m not convinced by Tom Hughes’ argument, although I am sympathetic to it. I?m an architect and a yes voter. Before I start, apologies for the length of my reply.

The reason I voted yes, and the reason I am still supportive of a move, if because I do not believe the alternatives are deliverable. I should qualify this by saying that I am becoming increasingly concerned with the spiralling projected cost [to the club] increases which KW has been letting out of the bag over the past six months. I am also very worried that at the time of the vote these costs were negligible but shortly after the vote began to increase. To me this is deeply concerning.

However, without knowing the full financial position with regard to the Kirkby proposal, I find myself having to take the board, and particularly BK, at his word. I, unlike many fellow Evertonians, find it hard to believe that BK would sell the club down the river to line his pockets. For those who do believe this, my point would be that the club being £100m+ in debt, playing shite football in a half empty stadium in Kirkby doesn?t strike me as a particularly attractive investment opportunity. If BK really intends to sell the club post relocation, then it had better be a pretty successful relocation, or else there won?t be too many takers.

I?ll deal with the alternatives in turn, firstly, a possible redevelopment of GP.
The main problem with GP is the state of repair, particularly the Bullens Road and Gwladys Street stands. The Main Stand is also in need of refurbishment, but to a lesser extent. In my opinion, these areas of the ground would be refurbished before the capacity of the Park End was ever increased, as has been suggested by Tom Hughes as a possible way to maintain capacity at or near 40k during redevelopment of the rest of the ground.

In my opinion, the refurbishment [or more likely rebuilding due to the poor state of repair and obstructed views caused by structure suporting overhanging upper tiers] of both the Bullens Road and Gwladys Street stands would be prohibitively expensive for the club. In addition to this, the final capacity of both stands would be likely to be significantly reduced due to both updated space standards which are employed in sporting stadia and the fact that overhanging upper tiers, of the type used on the Bullens Road, Gwladys Street, and Main stands, are highly unlikely to be constructed now [anyone who read the recent article by Matthew Mackey about his view from the Bullens Road Stand will have some appreciation of why this is the case [although obviously any rebuild couldn?t possible produce views like those that Matthew and his family had to suffer].

The second alternative is the Loop site. To make a stadium development feasible in today?s financial climate [when the club do not own a prospective site], any development must include ancillary facilities [casinos/hotels/supermarkets] which make the project economically viable to the developer [except if the land is publicy owned [and then any municipal authority [LCC] would have to make some sort of justification to their taxpayers for the cheap sale or gift of land to a private company [EFC]].

To my eye it seems that there is little stomach within LCC to donate land to a private company [EFC], which would have to happen for the ancillary facilities at or around Scotland Road [not the Loop site itself, but surrounding sites] to make the Loop site a viable alternative. I believe that the Loop site can accommodate a only a 50-60k stadium, and none of these ancillary facilities. As has been pointed out by many others, this is very different to the support that LFC have received from LCC.

As a result, I feel that Kirkby is, for the moment, the best deliverable option. I share Tom?s concerns regarding the frankly laughable transport strategy. There are several other significant planning issues which will have to be overcome for planning permission to be granted. It is by no means certain that it will be.

As I said in a response to Tom yesterday, I?m not saying that it will be easy [or pain free], but I feel that it can be delivered, and that the ?alternatives? aren?t deliverable at the moment. I agree with Tom?s analysis that all of these alternatives, or at the very least a thorough feasibility study and cost analysis of a possible redevelopment of GP, should be undertaken by the club. I am also realistic enough to know that this is unlikely to happen.

Looking forward to tomorrow night when we all have something else to worry about.
Tony Williams
62   Posted 23/01/2008 at 00:02:55

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Tom, my point is that no matter where the location is, be it at a redeveloped Goodison (We can only hope) or be it at the loop or Kirkby the primary experience that I am looking for is an enjoyable game of togger. It is as simple as that for me. I wan’t to enjoy my footy and locality will never change that for me.

I simply want to watch Everton FC play footy and hope that they can win something and if that is an experience that doesn’t appeal to some fans, then I don’t know what else Everton as a company can do to bring them in.
Phil Bellis
63   Posted 22/01/2008 at 23:59:43

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Gerard do more to make Yes voters regret their decision than anything rational supporters can say; you are, sir, the Captain Flint to Bill Kenwright’s LJ Silver. May you live to regret what you sow.
Andrew Richards
64   Posted 23/01/2008 at 00:05:58

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For God’s sake, there was a vote. No bullshit, no claims of vote rigging.


Let’s start a thread, name, row and seat number should do it as proof of elligibility.

The overall majority voted to move, and as for people not openly expressing their ’YES’ votes in public, that’s true, largely because the NO voters are aggressive and ignorant of the YES voters feelings.

OK, tell you what, you NO Voters pick your hardest lad and I’ll go toe to toe with him in Gwladys Street.
How sad is that statement?

See you in Kirkby, and if you don’t want to go then fuck off, because I for one don’t want to live in the shadow of the Shite’s new stadium. One City, One Name, One Club, they can have it!

We’ll be a Bolton or a Coventry!
Bollocks, we’ll be bigger and better than ever and still be able to grab a Stella and a snadwich on the way home!!

Remind me, how many executive boxes are suspended above the paddock?

Move on for Christ’s sake!

Dave Wilson
65   Posted 22/01/2008 at 23:37:02

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Then why at every opportunity to you want to brand life long blues piss heads, just because "all you want is to watch the game" other people have mates and can squeeze more into a day, its the match day experience, they socialise before and after
I’ve been to over 700 gmaes - the least in my group,
Some of my mates would still go even if we went to Kirby and others, me included, believe the club would no longer be Everton, people like you and Madden will never see that, before you blame the stay aways for crap attendance - interesting how you seem resigned to that and still voted yes - know this. there are life long Evertonians who will view your vote as the ultimate betrayal,
I’m just relieved its not happening
Andrew Richards
66   Posted 23/01/2008 at 00:20:33

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With respect mate, are you pissed or just a shit typist.
The ultimate betrayal. Don’t make me laugh!
Ever sat at the back of the main stand with your kids for a UEFA game?
Here’s a clue, it’s like being 8 years old and watching your heroes through a letterbox with a large bloke stood in front of you.

Everton is bigger than GP, we’ve all loved it, but it’s time to move on. Kirkby is the only option. BTW, did you vote?
Michael Tracey
67   Posted 22/01/2008 at 23:29:59

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Gee thats a record Gerry Madman, why did you take so long to enter the debate! How did the propaganda and bullshit meeting with Keith and Bill go? Its good to see that you also learnt how to cut and paste on the computer! Gerry if these Message Boards are so small and irrelevant then why do you keep coming on here and dribbling the same garbage? Are you a parking inspector by any chance? Don’t you worry if this insane move continues to look more realistic you will see protests, I for one am not too worried as Kirkby is still far from being signed off on. Government regulations need to be changed for this to happen, so how long will that take? If this fails to happen then surely Bill, Keith and the whole board need to move on! Oh which in turn means Gerry you will be out of a job!

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