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Be the 12th Man

By Terence  Leong :  02/02/2008 :  Comments (40) :
As we approach the final stretch of the most exciting season in recent years, I wonder if fans know themselves what they can really do to help the team end on a high note. Fans, let's ask ourselves ? what can we really do in this final stretch? The transfer window is closed, so whatever your anger might be, let's move on. Nobody's going to re-open the window just because Everton fans got upset that their manager didn't do what they think he should.

I've never visited Goodison, simply because I can't afford to. Living way across the globe in Singapore makes it more challenging. But many of you on this site are season ticket holders, live in the city and perhaps get to chance upon meeting the team. So, what can we really do to help the team?

The answer is helping their morale. When they cross the white line, it's all them. The manager can shout what he wants them to do, but it's up to them. Even if the manager has bad tactics, they are the ones on the field deciding if they should do otherwise. So, we can't play for them, we can't manage them, and we sure aren't going to give them 20 million to buy the next prodigy in football.

Yes, we purchase the season tickets and stuff, but when we knock the management for not stumping out another £20 million, we sure ain't going to take up an offering around the 40,000 fans in the stadium and ask everyone to throw in £500, and then bring it to the club and say, "hey, here's 20 million, loan from the fans, extra low interest"?

My point really is to get behind the team, more than ever ? shout yourselves hoarse (positively), and let the team know that we want them to keep it up and make that fourth place theirs. Whatever it takes, encourage the players, the management team, roll out more banners etc.

Of course, some of us will say "they are paid £50 grand a week and they can't motivate themselves?" Fact is, everyone needs motivation, the amount of money doesn't change that. Instead, we should be the 12th man, home games, away games, everyday on the streets, in the pubs, hang scarves, banners everywhere. You get my point?

When the team plays badly, they know it. They don't need us to let them know. But if we are still going to get behind them even when they are down, they are more likely to pick themselves up again. Perhaps what I am suggesting sounds foolish to some of you, but I think there is great power in positive reinforcement. Let's prove ourselves to be the what we always claim to be, fans with deep passions. Walking out during games sure won't make the team want to push on for the last minute goals. Barracking the players on the touchline sure won't turn them into football wizards. What's the harm in doing what I'm suggesting? What's to lose? You be the judge.

Reader Comments

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Paul Hardcastle
1   Posted 02/02/2008 at 20:47:10

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The fact that you have never been to Goodison kind of says it all, Terence. We read so much nonsense on this website about how our fans are supposed to carry themselves... but at the end of the day it?s more about the individuals themsleves who actually take the time and trouble and pay the not insignificant sums of hard-earned cash to go the games.

So you know what ? how can I put this politely... ? I can?t. How they wish to support the team is completely up to them. Some people will do as you suggest... but they are the ones who would do that anyway. Others will do as they see fit, as they always have, and if that means slagging off the players who are not performing, so be it.

Yes, it may not make much sense to some people, but that?s they way they are. So I?m, curious... why exactly should they change to become something they are not? Just because you say so. That and the "power of positive encourgaement". What a load of mamby-pamby fucking nonsense. Football?s a man?s game, for fuck?s sake. Not bleeding netball!
Colin Jones
2   Posted 02/02/2008 at 21:08:20

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Basically, it’s easier said than done.
Benji Learman
3   Posted 02/02/2008 at 21:34:58

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You say do all we can to make them go on and do well this season, yet you dont go to the game, let me re - phrase that, you have never been to the game, we do all we can lad by cheering the blues every home game and every away game, drinking, singing the lot.... i fucking love it! We do it for Everton, OUR TEAM! Thats what we do for the team and they are fucking proud to be playing for a club with fans like US! Yes, US! Not you mate who cant save up in his whole life to get the money together and go to the game, id like to know how old you really are, now that would make me wonder!
Art Greeth
4   Posted 02/02/2008 at 22:23:26

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As another ex-pat, outcast Blue living abroad, I’ll support you in this thread Terence.

Your physical presence at the game is neither here nor there. Your spirit, support and positivism counts for a LOT more than the moaning minnies who (allegedly) do attend the games.

Give me your optimism and support over the doomsayers any day, no matter how distant you are...
Kevin Hudson
5   Posted 02/02/2008 at 21:47:13

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Paul Hardcastle

What a load of unnecessary bile inflicted by you to one of our far east supporters ! What hateful guff. Why do you feel the need to viciously slate the guy, simply because he?s submitted a post of which the theme is positivity? What?s the matter with you?!

You remind me of a guy who sits two rows behind me in the Park End, who thought it entirely appropiate to scream the words : Murdering Kopite " at Chris Kirkland last season, a negative shout-before-you-think character. We don?t need antagonistic pessimists, thank you.

Mr Leong - A very good piece which struck a chord with me. As a season ticket-holder of many years, I too often get to my feet either to appeal, or to exercise frustration, and it is impossible not to be swayed by the events on the pitch. But way too many supporters will only raise their voices to criticise players, which is fine taken in itself, but won?t get off their arses enough with encouragement for them. The net result is that all too often, anxiety takes hold of certain players, who rush and panic, mistakes are made, and the pressure and tension increases. I think this was a significant factor in Goodison becoming a footballers graveyard for many (Limpar, Alexandersson, Beattie) Their arses went..

There is definitely something to be said for us to be even just a little bit more upbeat at home. It would help, but I do think that the almost-gallows humour is part-and-parcel of Goodison, and will always be there, so I won?t be attempting to start a half-time conga next week!!!!
Oh I almost forgot - Nuh nuh nuh nuh Nineteen !!!!
Paul Hardcastle
6   Posted 02/02/2008 at 22:36:55

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Oh look, here they all come. The politically correct thought police. Look, all I’m saying is why can’t there be a diversity of fan expression? If someone wants to barack the players, why should other fans want to stop them? If other fans don’t want to bararck the players, why should they be made to do so?

For god’s sake, we do not all have to think the same, believe the same, behave the same, quote the same shite from the same little red book ... I can see now what an easy job Chairman Mao had! And I can also begin to see why those who promote diverse views on here now tend to get a shitload of abuse for it. I just strongly object to being told how I should support MY club ? especially by some character from Singapore who, by his own admission, has never even been to Goodison Park!!! Why am I even debating this!!!
Kieran Fitzgerald
7   Posted 02/02/2008 at 22:51:03

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Paul: I bet you live two minutes from the ground. Here?s a idea for you. You obviously have access to the internet so price what it would cost to buy return flights from Sinapore, stay in a reasonable hotel, feed and water yourself for a weekend in Liverpool, pay for a matchday ticket, and then come back on and try to justify belittling Terrance.

When I sit down to plan my holidays for the year, I have to factor in my mortgage, other bills, my holiday time from work, my girlfriend, her holiday plans and how we manage babysitters for her five year old disabled son while away. We ask a lot on that front on a day to day basis as it is, we have no right to push it further than we should.

Football is an interest, a hobby Paul. It shouldn?t be given importance over the things that are the real priorities in your life. For a man who doesn?t like to be told what to think, I suggest you do a little more of it before you before you slag off someone who lives the other side of the globe from Goodison.
Art Greeth
8   Posted 02/02/2008 at 23:06:30

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Oopps! Tetchy, tetchy Paul...

Arguing against yourself here, matey. Nothing to do with "politically correct thought police". Just exactly what you state in defence of yourself - Terence and others offering "a diversity of fan expression".

Barrack the players all you want. Just don’t impose such imbecility (my contrarian opinion to your own...) on others.

Give me Terence’s positivism over your bleak ’constructivism’ any time - no matter how distant he is from GP or regardless of whether he has visited the hallowed ground ever or not.
Kevin Hudson
9   Posted 02/02/2008 at 22:56:45

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Look Hardcastle my point was simply that there was no need to rip the guy?s head off !
He had something positive to say.
Also that barracking the players is fine when it?s called for, but they also benefit from a positive gee-up,and need that too.

But calling me a communist, denigrating "diverse views" as you put it, referring to the submitter as "some character from Singapore" in such a sneering way, bringing Chairman mao into the discussion, and the bizarre way in which you use terms like politically-correct to describe my simply agreeing with the sentiment of Mr Leong?s piece, (would that be because he may be foreign,perhaps?) suggests one or two unsavoury things about you,frankly.. I ain?t the thought police. But I at least think before I articulate...
Gavin Goh
10   Posted 02/02/2008 at 23:21:17

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Hi Terence,

I am with you on this one, I am also a Singaporean who has been supporting this club since 1984 when I was five.

And to all who have not been to Singapore, apart from planning a trip to Goodison, being a supporter is here is also challenging simply because every other Tom, Dick or Harry is a Maure, Arse, Chelski or Kopite. I have an Everton car sticker and on occasion have drawn flak from others, but I dun care because I am who I am.

Simply by the fact that we uphold our beliefs gives us the right to have an opinion. So good on you Terence.
Leslie Wee
11   Posted 02/02/2008 at 23:37:55

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Paul Hardcastle wrote: "I can see now what an easy job Chairman Mao had!" in response to the main post.

Dear Paul, like Terence, I am a Singaporean, and Singapore happens to be in South-east Asia, not in China; and secondly, Singapore never was, and never will be a part of China. It was actually part of the British Empire prior to its independence, you know

Paul continues: "The politically correct thought police. Look, all I?m saying is why can?t there be a diversity of fan expression?"

I agree with you, Paul, and I won’t spoil it by claiming that I love Everton as much as you do, or even more. But perhaps you could be gentler with Terence, and the likes of me. Believe you me, I would love to be at Goodison week in, week out, if I could. Unfortunately, I am no Einstein (to figure out time travel) nor Abramovich’s love-child (to pay through my nose to make up for my stupidity).
Paul Hardcastle
12   Posted 03/02/2008 at 00:21:41

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Jesus Christ... now look what you?ve done, Terrence! False accusations of name-calling (check the transcript, Kevin!) and disabled five-year olds... WTF is the matter with you lads? Can we please stay on the topic?

The issue here is the same one as the shite we had to put up with from these armchair experts about the level of vocal support during the Chelsea game. We had people who watch the game on tv telling us how quiet we were. Now we have Terrence telling us we need to be gushing with positivism, and not to barrack the players... My point, before you lot all got so uppity was this: why can?t we as fans be allowed to support the team in whatever way we want? What?s wrong with that, Art, Keiran? See if you can answer the question.
Michael Tracey
13   Posted 03/02/2008 at 02:25:17

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I just did it this Christmas!
Air tickets for two 1300 quid
hire car and petrol 140quid
hotel 2 nights 180quid
game tickets 66quid
food and drink 100quid
merchandise 60quid
thats all most 1800quid probably 4 seasons tickets worth. Also I must say that this is not the first time i have done it either. So Paul all I can say is what a wanker you are! A positive post and you abuse him for it! Yes people can express there support anyway they want but if they are all arrogant pricks like you then why bother.
Derek Thomas
14   Posted 03/02/2008 at 03:28:22

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Terrence, nice one, I don’t think you can have too much positivity, even if there may be a tinge of innocence and naivety in there as well.

Paul, lighten up and rejoice in the fact that such views have not been totally hammered out of this cynical world, don’t make with the negative waves.
Timothy Lim
15   Posted 03/02/2008 at 07:54:48

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Firstly, I?m Singaporean, and I?ve been to Goodison twice (yeah, have to state that if that constitutes a passport to comment on the level of home fan support at Goodison).

I?m not just defending a fellow Singaporean, but objectively, Terence?s post is largely a positive one (albeit, some would say bordering on naivete), urging the privileged few who live near enough to go to the ground regularly, to urge the team on whereas he can only be there in spirit. Terence is in no way belittling whatever support we have at the moment.

That said, from what little experience I have had at Goodison (most recent game was Big Dunc?s final game against WBA), it does appear that aside from games against the huge significance or against our hated neighbours, the Goodison support tend to be pretty quiet until there?s something to shout about (i.e. we score an unlikely equalizer), and till then all I could hear the small motley crew of the away fans far louder than the home crowd.

And yes, Paul, it appears churlish to castigate a fellow blue just because he has not made his pilgrimage to Goodison. The exchange rate from pounds to Singapore dollars is nearly three to one, the average worker generally earns far less than a Brit (in McDonald?s it is common to see a wage of SGD2.50 an hour), and I?m privileged enough to be able to save up more than SGD$3,500 for each trip to the UK (assuming you stay for in crummy hotels for a week). It would be far easier here to just support the so called ?Big Four? teams and wait for the meaningless money spinning post season friendly games here in the far east.

So, all in all, we?re all blues, and the blue blood coursing through our veins is thicker than any political correctness, negativity, racism, or any cloistered thinking. So lighten up and instead of a shove in each other?s back, let?s consider a huge pat instead.

Come On You Blues!
Dave Wilson
16   Posted 03/02/2008 at 08:52:42

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Michael Tracy

Hundreds, no thousands of Evertonians spend far more money watching Everton than you do, some just dont have that kind of money, but they love the club just as much. In fairness to you, you may have broken your bank, either way your credentials are not in question, but its never been about how much you spend, that’s just unfair, just as amounts of games watched isnt the issue - someone from walton will have more opportunity ’s than someone fro HK - if your a blue your a blue, but the abuse you hurl at Paul Hardcastle is bang out of order.
Fact, EFC will last another 125 years without support like yours, without support like Paul’s it wouldnt last 5 minutes, try to remember that when using such language against a fellow blue
Art Greeth
17   Posted 03/02/2008 at 10:13:56

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Paul... I already answered you in my original reply:

"Barrack the players all you want. Just don?t impose such imbecility (my contrarian opinion to your own...) on others."

I hope that suffices.
Terry Maddock
18   Posted 03/02/2008 at 10:31:55

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Paul Hardcastle:

"How they wish to support the team is completely up to them"

"and if that means slagging off the players who are not performing, so be it. "

Do you not see the contradiction in your own statement?...
You cannot slag somebody off and support them at the same time...

I cant imagine how..and it happens a lot at Goodison park, screaming "Fuck off Hibbert ,your shite".. during the warm up, constitutes support...

Yes we all pay our money ..and if you want to shout abuse at the players..thats your choice..but that is not support..

Bemoaning a misplaced pass, or a catch dropped by a keeper..that i can understand..
But we currently have far too many"FANS"..who only go to slag players off and draw attention to themselves..

I took my youngest son in the family enclosure for the Wigan game..3 rows back from the touchline...and when on an attack..the prick in fron actually shouted at Phil Neville,,who had the ball at his feet.."fuck off Neville , you ugly manc cunt".

Then I guess you would just say he was choosing to support the team AS HE SEE?S FIT..

Best of luck in one day getting to see us play live Terence..we need more like you.
Paul McCann
19   Posted 03/02/2008 at 11:24:11

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Paul Hardcastle,

Why did you even bother posting mate? Terence has submitted a positive post, and you jump on the fact that he’s never been to GP.

As Kieran Fitzgerald and others have pointed out, you haven’t a clue about Terence’s circumstances, so you’re really not in a position to comment. I’ve heard that there’s a vacancy in the overseas marketing department at the club mate, maybe you should give KW a ring?

Yes, there is a bit of naivety in Terence’s post, but his basic point is that if all of us [especially those who go to the match] are SLIGHTLY more positive, that it will have a positive impact on the team. Think about it, it can’t do any harm, can it?
Dave Wilson
20   Posted 03/02/2008 at 13:32:44

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Art Greet

positive statements from someone who never goes will not pay the rent
Thats left to the Paul Hardastles of this world, its an awful lot easier to be positive if your not parting with your hard earned every week, sit there in pompous judgement if you must, but know this if a few thousand Pauls stopped going and suddenly developed yours and the other non attendants "positive attitude" we wouldnt have a club to be "positive" about, who are you to critisise any blue ?
Ed Fitzgerald
21   Posted 03/02/2008 at 13:46:25

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I am made up that Everton attract support from all over the world and that some people manage to have enough money to make the trip, that great. But I am afraid it is a big but, Everton more than most clubs rely upon a hard core of support largely drawn from the City of Liverpool and Merseyside (A number of statistical surveys tend to back this up) so I have plenty of sympathy for Pauls views.

I am afraid Terence states the bleedin obvious ? we all know we should be positive all the time, but when you follow them week-in, week-out, season-in season-out and inflict that passion on children (who then become devotees) it can be difficult. When you have witnessed the indifference from the leadership of the club (not Moyes) and absolute shite on the pitch (not recently but let's not forget the best part of the last 20 years) it is hard to take seriously the views of people who have never been to Goodison never mind made round trips to Gillingham in the middle of a working week, or had the delights of meeting of Northumbria police.

People who are Blues from abroad or who support us through watching TV should remember that before the Sky media explosion and Tim Berners Lee giving us the world wide web, us slightly cynical Blues were still turning up, sometimes moaning, sometimes cheering but always supporting the Blues. I don't want to patronise anyone who follows Everton from wherever they're from, but I don't want to be patronised either by people telling me how to be an Evertonian when they have never been at the game.

Art Greet
22   Posted 03/02/2008 at 14:23:16

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You really are not very bright, are you Dave Wilson...?

You and Paul both need to look in the mirror at yourselves. It’s not me or others in this thread making "pompous judgement" of others. But the pair of you do.

Paul’s acid original reply to Terrence was arrogant and condescending and totally disproportionate to Terrence’s upbeat message.

What does it matter if Terrence or others like him are not match-attending Blues, for whatever reason? Or do you consider that there is a caste system, that ONLY Blues who attend the game have a right to an opinion?

Furthermore, there are more ways than paying at the gate to contribute to the coffers of the club, all the more so in this e-commerce world, regardless of your geographical location.

And are your suggesting that all match attending Blues are pessimists whilst all non attendants are optimists...? What dross!

Hell’s Teeth, you don’t half talk some shite Dave. And I’ll close with exactly the same question you put to me: who are YOU to critisise any blue ?
Dave Wilson
23   Posted 03/02/2008 at 15:30:24

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As usual when your abject stupidity is exposed, you start to invent statements to justify your half-baked, ill-concieved, half-witted posts. Show me where I suggest a "caste system" and where do I suggest that all match-going blues are pessimsts or even where I suggest all non-match going blues are all optomists?

Sorry to dismantle you idiotic argument ? again ? but I think you?ll find the shite you refer to is all your words, they were never mine.

if you want to engage me in debate, don't atribute to me comments I didnt make, ok? Oh and you might wish to aquire a brain.
Ed Fitzgerald
24   Posted 03/02/2008 at 15:33:32

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Of course they are entitled to an opinion but it is a little illogical to attempt to convey what the atmosphere is and level of support the club are getting when they are not present at the ground. I would suggest that fans who have attended are realists Art they know for example that when it sounds like the away support (a la semi against Chelsea) are making more noise than us its not a true reflection of what is happening. They also tend to be more cynical based upon experience due to the some of the bullshit that the club utter as they tend to have local knowledge on some of the issues and not rely solely upon the club and toffeeweb for insights.
To respond to Terence’s original point in his post which suggests that we should be

"the 12th man, home games, away games, everyday on the streets, in the pubs, hang scarves, banners everywhere. You get my point? "

I would point out that at its most extreme this type of blind support reminds me of Newcastle fans - who are reviled by most other fans in the UK as insincere, fickle and media darlings

Evertonians who attend Goodison will thankfully remain loyal, but not gullible and feel able to pass a negative comment about a player, a chairman, a manager or tactics without being subject to the internet thought police.

Art Greeth
25   Posted 03/02/2008 at 16:07:00

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I repeat Dave, you’re not very bright, are you?

You defend Paul - I defend Terrence. You tell others not to make "pompous judgement" of others - but then you do just that yourself.

I DO NOT say that you suggest there is a "caste system" amongst Blues. I quote, verbatim, the following from my post:

"What does it matter if Terrence or others like him are not match-attending Blues, for whatever reason? Or do you consider that there is a caste system, that ONLY Blues who attend the game have a right to an opinion?"

I ASK you the legitimate question (IMHO), because both you and Paul in my eyes are implying just that - that greater weight should be given to the opinion of match attending Blues than absent fans. That, IMO, is absolute bollox!

The same with the reference to pessimists and optimists. Again, I quote verbatim my comments:

?And are your suggesting that all match attending Blues are pessimists whilst all non attendants are optimists...? What dross!?

Now read your own previous rambling post about ?know this if a few thousand Pauls stopped going and suddenly developed yours and the other non attendants "positive attitude" we wouldn?t have a club to be "positive" about?. WTF???!!

I don?t have much of a brain, but it least it is functioning, unlike some on here eh Dave??
Art Greeth
26   Posted 03/02/2008 at 16:31:54

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Ed? DOES Terrence ?attempt to convey what the atmosphere is and level of support the club are getting when they are not present at the ground?..? Not at all, IMO. He just makes an appeal to lend positive support to the team.

Now as others have commented on in this thread, that may be a rather naïve and innocent statement to make. Does it merit the ridicule directed at him by some? Again, IMO, it doesn?t ? and I have defended and supported his position.

I refute TOTALLY your suggestion that match attending fans are greater realists than absent ones. There are many ways you can form a realistic, cynical, romanticised, idealised? whatever ? opinion about your club without actually attending the game.

I really do not get your point in reference to Newcastle fans. I?m more of the opinion that Everton is no different from any group in that we have followers across the whole gamut of opinion, as forums such as this ? this thread even ? demonstrates. We are NOT a superior species of football supporters?

Now? does that final comment constitute heresy on my part?
Dave Wilson
27   Posted 03/02/2008 at 16:49:45

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Durr Art
I’ll try to spell it out, if the people who actually keep the club afloat - you know the paying customers - stopped going, the club dies, if you as a non contributor never went to GP, who the fuck would know ? be of no doubt Paul as a contributor carries more weight than you ever could, thats a cold hard economic fact
I didnt tell others not to make pompous judgement, i told you ! only you !

Invent comments and attribute them to other people if you want - you always do - but the fact is, a paying customer is entitled to complain all he wants and whether I agree with Paul or not I would always defend his right to say what he wants to the hilt. Even a non contributing idiot like you must understand that
Robert Carney
28   Posted 03/02/2008 at 17:43:59

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Can it not be construed, that anyone paying to watch their beloved Everton whether it be through the turnsiles or media e.g Sky and its offshoots are contributing to EFC.

To all our Singaporen Fans. most Evertonians welcome your support for this truly historical club.
Terry Maddock
29   Posted 03/02/2008 at 17:37:03

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Reading the above comments..

Does it not make sense, that positivity, cheering on your side, creating an intimidating atmosphere for the opposition, can only be good for the team?

I think that's all that Terrence was saying..wether or not he has been to a game has no bearing on this..

And a "CONTRIBUTOR" well buying a shirt is contributing,becoming a fan club member is contributing.. you can get EFC mobile and credit cards, golf balls and bags.. loads of merchandise..DVD?s etc..

So I'm fairly sure that Terrence other fans around the globe and ex-pats are all contributors... and should not be abused for airing a point of view..
Ask Man Utd how much their non match attending fans "contribute"?

As I mentioned earlier... it's unpleasant to hear our own players being abused..before the game..!

But to try to ridicule a fan half way across the globe because he wants us to get behind the team in any (positive) way we can... just not right.
Terence Leong
30   Posted 03/02/2008 at 16:48:23

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I expected diverse views when I posted the above, and I’m man enough for it. You’ve all got blue blood coursing through your veins, and I had never wanted to challenge that. My main point was not to tell people that they are less of a Blue because they barrack the team. Rather, since we all want the same thing i.e. see the team end the season well, what is the best that we can do for the team right now? That’s all that is to it. Yes, it’s easier said than done, but the fact is barracking the team basically will help you release your frustrations, but that’s all it can do. That’s a time and place for everything. What I am suggesting is that the time (and energy) right now is best spent helping to will the team across the finishing line. This is not about being uncritical. It’s about timing. Perhaps it’s a fear that if we don’t let the team know of our frustrations, they won’t know the folly of their ways. Perhaps it incidences like Spurs last season (at home) where we felt that it’s justifiable to barrack the team to give them a wake-up call. I don’t want to knock that. I just want to suggest an alternative approach (which many fans are already doing).

Just for the record: Supporter since 1984.
Art Greeth
31   Posted 03/02/2008 at 17:28:48

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Durr, Dave... I?ve already addressed this one.ln this e-commercial world, gate receipts is but one income resource for the club. Or are you now trying to argue that distant remote Blues contribute NOTHING financially to the club...? That our nasty funny foreign currency is somehow worth less than the sterling coinage from UK based Blues...? "Cold hard economic fact" - my arse! Laughable... naive even.

And where, previous to my exchanges with you, did I make "pompous judgement" of others? You have a real problem with me offering OPINIONS - that’s all they are - OPINIONS - contrary to your own, which you COMPLETELY fail to refute.

Now there are some people on here whose opinions I respect more than others. You are not one of them. I have clearly demonstrated that I have not invented comments and attributed them to you. I have clearly stated in this thread that Paul or anyone can claim whatever they like as an Everton supporter, be they a paying customer or not.

Squirm and wriggle all you like, Dave, but I’m not easily fooled by the empty rhethoric and contradictions you constantly post here. Stop being a dullard and recognize that you are trying to argue one thing whilst denying the same universal right to all.
Dave Wilson
32   Posted 03/02/2008 at 18:09:45

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Once again you put up your own comments and attribute them to someone else - It's getting embarrassing -Who said remote blues don't contribute? I said you, understand? That's you!

Please dont try to put yourself in a group every time your exposed. And who mentioned currency? And contradicting myself? More shite, show me examples cold hard economic, inescapeable, irrefutable, incontravertable fact! No one would know if you never went to GP ? ask BK or KW who they want you or Paul ? And next time you critisise a good blue like Paul, have the balls to call it criticism and don't disguise it as opinion.
Art Greeth
33   Posted 03/02/2008 at 18:39:41

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Dave - you’re an idiot. Pure and simple.

You simply cannot engage in reasonable debate. You simply cannot follow simple lines of argument. You simply cannot offer good counter arguments or examples to those offered by someone on the other side of the debate. You simply cannot establish, let alone sustain, a reasoned line of argument. You simply cannot see just how impoverished, hypocritical and contradictory your comments in this thread (and in general...) are. Your offerings here are totally incoherent.

In attempting to ridicule me, you just further expose your own shortcomings.

Highly amusing.
Paul Hardcastle
34   Posted 03/02/2008 at 18:56:02

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Art, with your pompous preaching and political correctness, you have successfully twisted not just my contribution and that of others to suit your own personal "positive is Beautiful; Criticism is Bad" agenda. The point I was making, which has been reinforced by Dave and Ed, is not that Terence and his friends in Singapore don’t have a right to comment. They can comment all they like... but they need to accept that their perceptions are influenced and distorted through the jaundiced image of television ? just as your is, as it turms out.

This is not a vendetta against foreign-based fans, especially those who can’t afford to attend, as you have cunningly twisted the discussion. The point is that no-one, wherever they are, has any place telling match-going fans how they should support the Blues. That in my book is just not on. The self-confessed fact that he has never actually been to Goodison just reinforces to me the fact he doesn’t know what he is talking about.

It really does you proud calling the poeple who disagree with you "idiots". But go on, keep digging the hole... I’m finding it quite amusing now.
Dave Wilson
35   Posted 03/02/2008 at 19:09:11

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apology accepted
run along now, there’s a good little non contributor
Tom Davies
36   Posted 03/02/2008 at 19:35:27

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How is it possible for you to ask us to improve the atmosphere? If you ever visited Goodison you?d know that we have one of the best atmospheres in the country, any manager or player will say so.

So personally I?d advise you to support another team if our fans don?t sound good enough to you from your armchair.
Leslie Wee
37   Posted 03/02/2008 at 19:38:13

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To Paul Hardcastle, Dave Wilson, and your lot.

Thank you for your clarification. I now know why I should keep my opinions to myself. Not having been to Goodison Park means my views do not carry as much weight as yours. Some diversity of opinion we are talking about. You guys remind me of Chairman Mao.

And should financial clout be the basis of one’s right to put forth a view, and if you so happen to be against the move to Kirby, then I hope you will be so good as to take your own advice when the moneymen at Everton Football Club get their way with the relocation.
Art Greeth
38   Posted 03/02/2008 at 20:52:27

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Paul? a typical card played by people who find their opinion countered is to describe the other as ?preaching? and applying ?political correctness?. You did it very early on in this thread, failing COMPLETELY to recognize that many ? the majority, I would suggest in this thread ? take a different opinion to you.

I do not have ?an agenda?. I do not subscribe to such a trite view as "positive is Beautiful; Criticism is Bad." I have clearly stated you have the right to offer the opinion you do. I have clearly responded in a public forum ? the same forum you are posting in ? that I do not agree with your view. I give concrete reasons WHY I don?t agree with your view. Furthermore, I consistently defend the right of one and all to post whatever they like on here.

I have not ?cunningly twisted the discussion?. I have responded to posts, rather than initiate things, so I have not led the thread in a particularly direction. The discussion has evolved and I pointed out the fallacies of statements made, principally by Dave Wilson rather than you.

I do not consider that Terrence?s original post was in any way a criticism or least of all a directive as to how match-going fans should conduct themselves. It was simply a charming appeal to support the Blues in an encouraging way to help them to the end of the season. Thus the thread?s title ?Be the 12th man?.

In your opinion ?The self-confessed fact that he has never actually been to Goodison just reinforces to me the fact he doesn?t know what he is talking about?. In my opinion, that is both presumptuous and pompous of you. It is an OPINION, not a FACT as you describe it.

I have the distinct impression that neither you nor Dave Wilson have the first idea how to engage in genuine debate. Each and every one of us is ?prejudiced? or ?jaundiced? in our views and opinions, influenced not only by television as you suggest here. Of course, the reverse of that coin is if you agreed with me our shared views would then be described as ?profound? and ?insightful.

I don?t accept that I call EVERYBODY who disagrees with me "idiots". I reserve that for people who demonstrate true stupidity by compounding their mistakes when they have had them pointed out to them. So ? yeah ? call me pompous if you like because I have a low tolerance level of stupidity, as demonstrated in the last post of Dave.

Dave? you cannot accept what was never offered. But you knew that already, didn?t you?? But then again, judging by your contributions today?
Paul Hardcastle
39   Posted 03/02/2008 at 22:15:55

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Yea, like I said: pompous preaching. Thanks for confirming it. You think the mind-numbing diatribe you produce constitutes "debate". Any pretence at debate vanished when you attacked me because I objected to someone who was casting an unwanted slieght on the level and form of support currently provided by fans who actually take the time and trouble to go the game.

The fact that you are also preaching this nonsense from the lofty perch of another distant armchair really says it all. It?s about time the moderators of this site terminated this ridiculous discussion just to save us all from another page and a half of you self-important drivel.
Michael Kenrick
40   Posted 03/02/2008 at 22:24:42

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Okay, boys and girls... I think that’s quite enough of this rubbish. Is this what happens when I don’t stay on watch all weekend? Got to agree with Paul, though, about the preacher-man. We’re getting a bit sick of your form of "debate" to be honest, Art Greeth. Some reasonable concerns experessed and you just go off on one.. or should that be ten! Surely you have something better to do with your time? Let’s have a little more deliberation in future, alrite?

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