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Can Goodison be re-developed?

By Paul Lally :  20/03/2008 :  Comments (100) :
I love having a true blue as a chairman and was delighted to meet Bill Kenwright not so long ago. I tried to insert the stadium move into the conversation but he expertly side-stepped. But I did manage to get a response regarding re-developing Goodison and his stance borders on pure bloody mindedness. It was like he actually wants to cut off his nose to spite his face.

The money - £80 to 100 milion for Kirkby - easily covers up-grading Goodison Park. And we own Goodison - but we will not even own our new stadium in Kirkby if we move.

Health and Safety - new rules; total propaganda backed up by ex-players who are paid by the Board to spout opinions about how we cannot re-develop. What exactly do they know apart from what they are told by the so-called experts employed by the Board?

I find it so frustrating that our super blue chairman cannot see what to most of us is obvious. To the point that he ignores expert opinion and it seems will not even consider the proposals. As Trevor Skempton has pointed out, we can increase capacity to 48,000 + by starting with the Park End.

When I met BK I felt like grabbing hold of him and trying to shake some sense out. We have to stick together on this and keep the whole debate on the front burner. The People's Club = people power.

And by the way, I did not receive the 2 voting forms I was due - made complaints and got nowhere so how this is a mandate is beyond me. I feel like I am being rail-roaded on the Northern Line.

Just one more point - the propaganda goes that deep that a friend who works for EFC full-time told me that they are told on a regular basis that if the ?re-develop Goodison? debate ever comes up tell everyone and anyone it is a non-starter. The facts they gave him - Health and Safety new rules will not allow it. That was it and not being the sharpest pencil in the box he (and I imagine lots of others) accept what they are told by their employers as Gospel and therefore when asked come out with the ?party? line. That is how it works in all major corporate companies otherwise there would be rebellion amongst the staff.

So Bill Kenwright, please start behaving like the Evertonian you say you are and re-look at the pros and cons of re-developing Goodison and let?s have it all out in the open so then we can either accept it is not possible or see it can be done.

I recently wrote a piece advocating a shared stadium because I felt at the time that the Goodison debate was stalling but, as I said, what is wrong in proving one way or another whether it is possible to re-develop?

I have the feeling that if the truth was out re-developing Goodison is a very real possibility and BK knows it. Therefore the only reson to create such a smoke-screen is down to how much his shares will be worth in a new stadium. I cannot think of any other reason why a blue-blooded Evertonian would not exhaust all re-develoment possibilities before even considering moving us from our home.

Why not consult experts in the field and publish the findings, costs and time scales i.e one side a year for a developed Goodison? Is that too much to ask of our chairman?

Reader Comments

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Dave Whitwell
1   Posted 20/03/2008 at 15:31:01

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Just a thought: I was unfortunately one of the Yes voters as at the time; after much consideration I got caught up in the "this was the only option" scenario. However, many of the articles I have read since have made me wonder and if I could vote again I would certainly cast a No vote.

Just a thought: could Michael or Lyndon commision some sort of petition on this site, and try and get readers of the KEIOC site, Bluekipper etc to sign up, requesting the Board carryout a thorough examination of the redevelopment of Goodison and make all information public?
David Wood
2   Posted 20/03/2008 at 15:21:07

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"The money - £80 to 100 milion for Kirkby - easily covers up-grading Goodison Park."
Everton is not solely paying this though, the majority is coming from Tesco because they will be putting one of their stores on the same site. It would not be possible to allocate enough room to have a similar store where Goodison is now. This means we would have to find £80 - £100 million ourselves to finance it which to me does not make any sense as this would hinder our financial power in the transfer market at a time when we are looking to make the next step up and challenge for a champions league place on a consistent basis.
I realise that most, if not all, evertonians would love to stay at Goodison forever (myself included) but it would greatly halt the recent progress we have made if we were to stay for another 10-20 years.
Mark Murphy
3   Posted 20/03/2008 at 15:45:41

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"But it would greatly halt the recent progress we have made if we were to stay for another 10-20 years."

How???
Trev Richards
4   Posted 20/03/2008 at 15:30:59

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Goodison is no longer a world class ground. Neither is the Kirby proposal but at least it is functional.

Redeveloping Goodison would cost a lot more than £80mill to make it a modern stadium and there are not grants / Tesco funds available. We would not get the money from naming rights and even then we would still only have a 48,000 seater stadium with no potential for upgrade.

It may go against our club moto but where the best (Kings Dock) is not an option why take the worst option. I live within the city boundaries and Goodison is a lot closer for me to get to but I have no issue with moving to Kirkby. I whish there was the opertunity to have a world class stadium but there isn?t and let's be honest, we are not a world class club (yet) and don?t have world class money.

I really think some people who are upset they lost the (democratic) vote should now get behind the club they are suposed to support. This constant complaining is helping no-one except the RS.

Paul Lenehan
5   Posted 20/03/2008 at 15:52:45

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How are we going to find £80 - 100 million? In the current financial climate banks won?t even loan to eachother never mind to football clubs who regularily run at a loss. Also if we were to raise that sort of money then where are we going to find the additional millions required to improve the team?
David Wood
6   Posted 20/03/2008 at 15:57:27

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Other clubs are getting new stadiums which means greater turnover that can then be spent on the team. This is as well as billionaires buying many premiership clubs which we also have to contend with. Moyes has worked miracles on the funds he has had to spend but we cannot expect him to do this forever. A new stadium would increase revenue for new players as well as helping us attract them in the first place.
So that is how it would halt our progress if we were to stay at Goodison!
Rob Bentham
7   Posted 20/03/2008 at 15:43:19

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DWood
The £80-£100Million is what Kirkby will cost Everton, it?s in the planning application. The enabling development with Tesco means they will contribute the land, but not to us, to Knowsley and we lease it off them. Nobody is paying for a new stadium for us, Tesco are contributing nothing financially to our stadium.
D Whitwell?s comment on his change of mind now the facts are coming out, will be echoed by a lot of others who were led to believe we were getting a new stadium for a pittance, instead of a new stadium for the cost of a new mid-range stadium (NSNO).
Paul Houghton
8   Posted 20/03/2008 at 15:58:31

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I really only have one thing to add to this debate and that is the numbers which are now being talked about with respect to the cost of the new stadium have to be found/financed by Everton and Everton alone. It is not being provided by Tesco who have stated all along that they are not giving Everton any finance. Mr Wyness was quoted as saying the new stadium might indeed need an input on Evertons behalf of possibly upto £100M. If this is the case then we should be looking at using this finance to help re-build Goodison. I only see a massive mortgage being taken on by the club for either project so for those that use the argument that not moving to a new stadium will remove funds for new players I dont believe it as both options will have an effect on our ability to finance new players. I believe that the argument comes down to a simplistic one of move to a shiny new stadium which unless done carefully will finish up being devoid of atmosphere and any link to our past, or stay in our home which has seen all our ups (as well as a number of downs). I do realise that this is an emotive subject but I know which option I prefer and it doesn't inlcude a shiny new stadium.
David Wood
9   Posted 20/03/2008 at 16:19:14

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Sorry I didn?t realise that Tesco were not contributing financially. I suppose this has been the common misconception by many fans. Hmmm it looks like I may have to reconsider my stance on this.
Michael Smith
10   Posted 20/03/2008 at 16:23:34

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Of course Goodison can be redeveloped but because of the re-written green guide (and the old one too) a redeveloped Goodison would house hardly any more than what it currently houses maybe even less, I don't think it would be sensible to redevelop Goodison to the latest specs - angles of stands no more than 34.5 degrees, stands which have to be much further away from the pitch than in the past etc etc and for the club to go into huge debt for the sake of a ground capacity of.... 35-40,000...
John Beadle
11   Posted 20/03/2008 at 16:14:33

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Its a tough one, but I dont believe GP can be redeveloped without hindering the teams progress personally, I can't see how playing in a 3 sided stadium for the next 2/3 yrs or whatever would be of benefit .. I'm sure I've read that statistically clubs suffer when this is the case .. Goodison is blustry at the best of times .. but with a stand knocked down etc, i can't see how that would allow the likes of Arteta to fourish. It's hardly conducive to giving your all for the shirt if the stand your shooting towards is just a big empty gap... wind blowing through at gale force.

The only way I think its possible were if we did one stand per end of season during the break, and have it take 4yrs to complete... so no disruption to the play. But can a stand be built in that amount of time? .. I assume not. For us to lose a stand at a time during the season would not only disrupt the play but would be a huge loss in income for the club. One quarter or your revenue is a lot when were not exactly flush with cash, plus add on the £80+million to actually do the work.

I can't see we?d get through it whilst maintaining / improving our current position on the field. We need the money for transfers or else risk losing DM to another club that matches his ambition.

Alex Spelling
12   Posted 20/03/2008 at 16:17:33

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This may be a crass point, but if we leave Goodison we will recoup some money for the sale of the land which will go towards paying for the new stadium. Obviously if we stay, the land value brings us nothing to contribute to costs We’re getting money for Bellefield and now have, albeit rented, a state-of-the-art training facility.

The second point would concern naming rights. I’ve no idea if someone would pay to have their name attached to a redeveloped Goodison, but its likely that for a club in our current position they would rather have it on a brand new stadium in the middle of a large, modern retail park (for business and image reasons).

Thirdly, we will probably seek additional commercial partners to help finance the Kirkby Dome who as with the naming rights are more likely to invest / lend money based on the ancilliary commercial possibilities associated with a new retail site.

Ok, let the barrage begin!
Paul Lally
13   Posted 20/03/2008 at 16:08:51

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Thank you Rob re finances.
As Rob has reiterated we have to find the £80 to 100 million anyway for the move.
We all have our opinions on costs, future team building, health & safety etc etc.
But we do not really know what the situation is.
Just how deeply did the engineering appraisal of Goodison go when you consider the person asked to complete the study would have been made fully aware BK and KW’s position ?
Totally independent and fair ?
Just the way business works - reports are written to favour certain opinions either deliberately or subconsciously

All I am asking for is an open investigation as to whether we can or cannot develop Goodison, fully and honestly backed by BK and the board.
Do they already know the answer and that is why they are so reluctant to even look at the engineering plans that experienced engineers and architects have drawn up and are more than willing to sit down and discuss ?
I cannot for the life of me see why that is a problem.
Just because Kirkby seemed right for a lot of Evertonians when they had to vote does not mean that in the ever changing and fast moving football / financial world they cannot later reflect and possibly reconsider their vote, based on more information - it is whether this information is openly and honestly provided so we can then make an open and honest decision.
Why all the secrecy ? There is no need is there ?
Come on Bill - every interview you give, you say how much you love Everton, David Moyes, the fans, Goodison - so what is the problem ? Commission an unbiased, independent report re developing Goodison in the next 2 months and publish the findings. Why not ? It would be well worth the money and time. This is our home, heritage, history and (possible) future.

Is that so wrong ?
Paul Lenehan
14   Posted 20/03/2008 at 17:01:33

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I didn?t realise we had to contribute £80 - 100 million. I remember hearing Wyness say the sale of Goodison and naming rights would be sufficient to cover the finance we needed to contribute. Obviously if we are now talking about £80 - 100 million someone has seriously got their figures wrong or have deliberately done so. One thing I am certain about is the uncertainty: there are so many figures and articles, it is hard to know what to believe.
Lee Smith
15   Posted 20/03/2008 at 17:17:50

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I have copied the following from a post I made on a very similar thread from the mailbag, apologies to those of you who may have already read it but it fits the discussion here as well....

It’s interesting to read the seemingly polar opposite views with regards to the necessary positional and structural restraints of Goodison Park issued by Trevor Skempton and Mick Dempsey (see the Mailbag article).
On one hand we have Trevor, who insists it can be done bit by bit over a period of time, whereas Mick has gone down the route of complete demolition and rebuild.
Now I will be the first to admit I am in no position to comment on who is right (although in an ideal world I would love it if what Trevor is proposing could be accomplished). But surely if the views expressed on here are so varied then that means the club must think to themselves "what exactly can we or cant we do with the Old Lady", and open up a forum / meeting with people from all camps and views invited to sit around a table and discuss the options or allow them to issue their plans, and confirm once and for all what exactly is feasable and what isn’t. It would put a quick end to all the squabbling!
Now I know that some people will say the Club isn?t interested as the Kirkby train is almost in the station etc etc (or whatever the latest tag line Mr Wyness and co. are using at the moment), but surely it is down to the club to explore every possible avenue. After all, the (much weighted IMO) vote was only to continue negotiations with Tesco and Knowsley, and wasn?t a mandate from the fans to IGNORE all other options.
Mark Murphy
16   Posted 20/03/2008 at 17:23:47

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"Other clubs are getting new stadiums which means greater turnover that can then be spent on the team".

Like Bolton, Boro, Sunderland, Newcastle, Southampton, Leicester, Derby, Coventry, etc you mean?

Sorry, I dont get this mad rush to leave Goodison Park
Cormac Murphy
17   Posted 20/03/2008 at 18:07:11

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I sent a letter yesterday explaining that Everton should look at the redevopment of Leicester Tigers ground at Welford Rd. OK it’s only expanding to 30,000 capacity, but it is 5 minutes fom the city entre and is similarly positioned to Goodison, nestled amongst terraced streets and busy roads. The council have granted the go ahead - and it will be the best club rugby ground in the contry. The board should examine this development and model their ideas on it. It can be done. We need to stay at GOODISON!
Tony Billows
18   Posted 20/03/2008 at 18:13:03

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So who wants to miss the home games for a year or so while their part of the ground is re-developed? And of those who do get in are you willing to pay 60% more for your seat to recoup the lost revenue from the 16,000 in the St End (if that?s were the re-development begins)?
It may be true to say that we don?t know the facts regarding the move, but nobody is giving any facts either about how to stay put will work.
Barry Scott
19   Posted 20/03/2008 at 19:11:59

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There’s load of information here on redevelopment:

http://www.keioc.net/index.php?page=goodison-park
Jay Gordon
20   Posted 20/03/2008 at 20:08:22

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How many of you actually believe that the residents around Goodison would welcome there area being turned into a building site for the next four to five years. One old woman in Edge Lane has managed to bring the redevelopment of that area to a complete and total halt and we only have to look over the park to our beloved neighbours to witness the probs they had with a couple of old dears.
In the end, Goodison won?t be redeloped not because of money or what goes on inside EFC; it?ll be because of local people doing what they do best in this city and holding back progress.
Neil McDermott
21   Posted 20/03/2008 at 20:42:07

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Why have Everton not looked at what the GAA did in Dublin? They took a very outdated stadium in 1995 and totally redeveloped it on the same site. Constrained by a narrow site - flanked by railway line and canal. The stadium makes money and is now paid for totally: 80,000 capacity.
Gavin Ramejkis
22   Posted 20/03/2008 at 21:00:46

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I have requested feedback from the H&S executive on current and forthcoming regulations regarding Football Stadia both new build and existing builds and will post them to this site and anyone else that is interested. At least that way anyone interested could have a definitive rather than hearsay response.
Jay Harris
23   Posted 20/03/2008 at 21:34:02

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Gavin
Once again good objective point.

For those who are querying areas of the ground being closed in the season read Trevor Skemptons report on the development work he did at Newcastle.
Much of it was done in close season with minimum disruption to the season.

Now I don't know how many of you have been to Newcastle but there isnt a more landlocked site in the country and Goodison stands amongst some of the largest square footage of land of quite a few premiership grounds so obviously DOES have the scope for development.

As one of the main objector?s to the Kirkby ground move I have constantly said that:

Kirkby is not FREE!!!!!!

Kirkby is not the deal of the century!!!!!

GP is not about to fall down or be closed down!!!!!!!!!!

The only logic to building a new stadium was the availability of HUGE grants (a la Kings Dock).

That is no longer the case but building costs are building costs whatever site you build on and common sense will tell you that it is cheaper and better (because we own it and the land is FREE) to develop half of GP than to build a new stadium on somebody else?s land.

To all those pro-BKites who knock us for questioning "The Magician", has this man never told blatant lies before? I question his motivation and integrity because the evidence is there to see for all but the blind.

We are going to Kirkby because there?s a pot of gold and it isn?t for Everton or Evertonians..
Alex Pat
24   Posted 20/03/2008 at 22:22:51

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Jay, your comment:
We are going to Kirkby because there?s a pot of gold and it isn?t for Everton or Evertonians.

This is just one of the many examples of crass comments made about the proposed move to Kirkby. If it is not a pot of gold for Everton/Evertonians then who is it a pot of gold for, because surely if you mean the pot of gold is only for the current shareholders then how will they make their money? Do you think some poor sap of a billionaire is going to buy them out but be left with a worthless product?!

They may well make a hefty return on their investment but if they do it is only because the buyer thinks that EFC are a sound and marketable product which will have to have money invested in it to turn a decent profit for the buyer. Money makes this world go round (like it or not) and we don?t have any and the only way to get it is to move.

You will notice that KEIOC and other advocates of staying at GP only talk about EFC bankrolling the rebuilding of GP out of EFC?s own current turnover/profitability but none of them has stated how exactly the board are to work this economic miracle especially without input from any other wealthy benefactors!

I?m sure a few questions will be fired my way but I?d rather they be answers to how EFC can perform the miracle of Gwladys Street!

John Anderson
25   Posted 20/03/2008 at 21:30:13

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Does anyone know 100% what the full financial implications are? Judging by the comments here, I don?t think so... Does anyone honestly think that, if this new stadium was gonna set us back £80 to 100 million, we?d be moving to Kirkby? It's fuckin TESCO putting in money, that's why we're moving to Kirkby.
Tom Hughes
26   Posted 20/03/2008 at 23:21:25

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If Tesco are paying for this why haven’t the Club/Tesco said that? They may have started by saying something similar at the time of the vote, but since then it has been the complete opposite. Everton will be paying for 2-3 of the 4 stands minimum, if as the club has said itself we need £100m for Kirkby. Meanwhile in broadest terms GP only needs 10,000 new seats to match Kirkby’s capacity, not to mention the benefits of preserving heritage/history, and the continuity and established and improved infrastructure at the more central site.
Neil Morris
27   Posted 20/03/2008 at 21:53:54

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I honestly thought going into the stadium vote that Kenwright wouldn’t be able to pull the wool over the majority of Evertonians eyes. I really did. When the results of the vote came through the first thought that crossed my mind was "who exactly got the vote??" On most away games attended this season I have not crossed paths with anybody who voted Yes. Nobody. It seems that the hardcore following of the club do not in any way shape or form want a move out of the city. In fact I have heard certain fans say they will never ever set foot in Kirkby and their association with the club will end once the move is stamped a certainty. Comments like these certainly grabbed my attention especially when you consider the length of time these people have followed the club, the games they have attended and the money that they have spent over the years.

Kenwright is fully aware of the opposition to this move and is also aware of the narrow percentage that he obtained to get the green light to progress this project further. Hardly a landslide was it. Knowing that he does not have a large majority of the fan base united about most aspects of this move it begs the question "why are the board persisting with a project of this magnitude when it does not have the full backing of it’s fanbase which they will require to assist them in paying the mortgage back??"

Would you walk down the aisle with somebody if there was any doubt??

Would you buy a car if there was any doubt?? Different examples but It’s still the same principles.

There is only one answer to this in my opinion and that is certain people stand to make a lot of money out of this and certain people are going to lose out. You can bet your life like anything in this world it’s the people at the top that win and the people at the bottom (the fans) will lose out.

I really wish certain Evertonians would stop labelling Kenwright as a true blue and that we should be grateful that we have one of our own running the club. Utter rubbish. He like all people in his position are only interested in one thing: Money. Kenwright has obtained his position at EFC by careful manipulation, smokescreens, and empty promises. Now he holds this position it appears he is answerable to nobody anymore. Such a shame really when you consider how the club has gone from having a leader like Sir John Moores to now having Bill Kenwright. Tragic really.
Jay Harris
28   Posted 20/03/2008 at 23:34:21

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Neil
I couldn't have put it better myself although there are still people that come on here and think he?s responsible for the success this season.

I have said this before but this same TRUE BLUE, who was worth about £1 million at the time, bought Johnson out for £20 million and Everton?s debts rose by £20 million at the same time.

Now that was SO smoke and mirrors that nobody even saw it.

The same man who TURNED DOWN Kings Dock when he had to act as guarantor because his one time GOOD Friend Paul Gregg sussed his game and refused to put £30 million up without some sort of security on the development.

The same man who said "The cheque will be in the bank in the morning" (Fortress Sports Fund)

The same man who has been "working 24/7 to get new investment into the club"

The same man who has systematically sold off all our assets except GP (Yet).

Tesco are not making ANY contribution to the Kirkby stadium.

The stadium will cost EFC between £80-120 million at last count and will be built on land that we lease.

Kirkby IS the deal of the Century BUT not for EFC or its supporters!!!
Kevin Mitchell
29   Posted 20/03/2008 at 23:19:47

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John, you and thousands others who voted for a slow death of our club need to wake up pretty quickly. Tescos are not paying for the stadium, we are!
I can sense the reality of this move outside the city is starting to give supporters sweaty palms.
For me it will be a life changing move as I dont want to support a team playing in Kirkby, which by the way will have nothing to do with the everton we have been brought up with.
Paul Lally, a good article, your encounter with Kenwright says it all. I feel quite helpless watching these gangsters who run our club destroy what has taken 130 years to make it what it is today.

Jean Philibossian
30   Posted 21/03/2008 at 00:02:32

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In light of the above, and as I have previously stated in other posts. The power is in the supporters hands.

We must stop going to games NOW.

In the past, the common response has been, oh...consider the team etc.

Well our collective choice is this. Pain for a couple of games, or pain for a 100 years from Kirkby on.
I assure you, the button to be pressed with the Wynesses of the world ia MONEY. Should Goodison be devoid of people for the next 2 or 3 fixtures, believe me, you will have that beauracratic fat fucks attention.
Donka Doran
31   Posted 21/03/2008 at 00:08:30

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The wind is tossing the lilacs, The new leaves laugh in the sun, And the petals fall on the orchard wall, But for me the spring is done. Beneath the apple blossoms I go a wintry way, For love that smiled in April is false to me in May. SO FUCKING STAY
Simon Gilmovitch
32   Posted 21/03/2008 at 00:11:03

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This is I think where we are. We are skint but we own GP. We can?t afford to redevelop AND spend money on the team. So Mr Tesco has said sell the Old Lady and come and play in my carpark. I will give you the land for free and you put all the money you made from the sale of GP into a new stadium.

Fair enough... but why? Well, it means increased revenue which means a better team. So in 5 years time we will all be watching Kirkby United competing in the Intertoto.

Sorry but no thanks, Bill. I prefer to watch Everton FC at Goodison Park. But all this is academic because, despite what the Board say, we remorgaged GP to that American bank afew years ago so we won?t even have the money from the sale of GP. Which begs the question: who is paying for Tescodrome?

Well nobody cause we will not move. Like the Kings Dock we will pull out as soon as Tesco ask for the first £30 mil and BK will blame it on rising building costs. It's a complete charade; it will never happen. Nobody wants it and in the cold light of day even the Yes vote is disappearing fast.

So where does this leave us? Well top 5 playing in the best ground in the country ? and long may it continue.

Damian Wilde
33   Posted 21/03/2008 at 00:46:28

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Here we go again, same old people spouting the same old rubbish. Neil Morris, I?m bored with hearing ?I haven?t met a Yes voter?? You lot would have everyone believe they don?t exist. Look at things objectively and balanced. I?m a Yes voter and know many of them. And before you say anything I have a season ticket, got to a fair few away too (Europe included). If people decide to cry and not go, well than they are not proper fans and I couldn?t give a fuck if they don?t go anymore. Vote narrow, etc, etc. The vote was won - end of story.

As for your wedding analogy, are you for real???

You and Jay Harris, particularly Jay Harris always slagging off BK. We?re doing the best we have done for about 20 odd years, have a decent squad, new training complex, going to a new ground. You don?t think BK has anything to do with our recent improvement? He?s not a factor in us getting into Europe? He?s done fuck all? Look at things in a balanced way. Has he made mistakes? Of course he has, but he?s done some good things, but as you exhibit some thinking errors, you filter out any positives for him and Kirkby, and only focus on the negatives and you tend to overgeneralise and catastrophise them. Me, Me, Me, etc. Who would you replace him with then? Come on, who?? If you?d prefer some yank or arab, then we?ll see how we do.

Stop being paranoid about money and stop feeling like your ?the victim?. If you don?t like it, don?t go. We?re going to Kirkby, deal with it. I really thought these stadium debates had been put to bed. They?ve been done about 600 times and always the same content from people who claim they?re experts.

Shall we talk football?

David Wood
34   Posted 21/03/2008 at 01:38:20

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"Like Bolton, Boro, Sunderland, Newcastle, Southampton, Leicester, Derby, Coventry, etc you mean?"

First of all Bolton, Boro, Southampton, Leicester and Coventry can?t get enough fans to fill their stadiums like we would be able to but Sunderland and Newcastle (especially Newcastle over recent years) have spent quite big money. However you fail to mention positve scenarios, as with most of this article, like arsenal and man city who are making more money from match ticket sales than ever.

Another point... isn't anyone else sick of obstructed views? I used to sit in the Gwladys Street but now sit in the Park End and think it is much better. Game after game (unless its the derby or against Utd) there are large diagonal patches of empty seats behind the girders. Only a minor point but thought I?d make it nevertheless.

Rich Jones
35   Posted 21/03/2008 at 02:09:12

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Damien if you going to use the ?we?re going and deal with it line? I will use the "wake up and smell the coffee" line. You've been fooled by your leader and I think there are less and less of you backing him. I hope you can deal with that in 10 years time when there's 20,000 v Fulham at your Kirkby Dome. You can't just ignore so many people who are against it.
Erik Dols
36   Posted 21/03/2008 at 08:06:20

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If I won the Euromillions anytime soon...
Arthur Jones
37   Posted 21/03/2008 at 09:39:48

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Damien .... If Blue Bill is the greatest thing since sliced bread, how come, pre-Premiership when Sky invented football, we were regarded as one of the "big 5" teams? Whereas every other team from that group has moved on, we spent a decade or more fighting relegation. We are doing so well despite Kenwright, not because of him.

David Moyes rescued our club along with £27M from Man Utd for ?fat boy? ... Johnson and his mate Kenwright dragged Everton from the jaws of potential prosperity to the doom of near bankruptcy; now Bill is looking for the pot at the end of the rainbow.

Incidentally, I have been going to watch Everton home and away for 40 years: season ticket holder, Europe games this season and 23 years ago, and I know some Yes voters , but they are well outnumbered by the No voters of my aquaintence.

Joe Ludden
38   Posted 21/03/2008 at 10:23:01

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Guys, this is excellent. I remember reading and contributing to a discussion on this site shortly after the "vote", if we can call it this. What annoyed me most back then were the supporters giving comments like "time to shut up and back the club, back BK, back the move and lets carry on.." normally followed by some drivel like "this arguing is only helping the RS..". Ha, like they care. Such closed minds to what is such a HUGE issue. Now look at this discussion, mostly fans agreeing that the move makes no business, financial or fanbased sense. This is the time to kill off Kirkby for good. We need to let the board, the players old and current, and more importantly Tesco and friends, that we don’t wanna move, that we see through the lies and the propaganda, and that We Shall Not Be Moved. Redevelop the Grand Old Lady. Lets get a board that can make this deliverable.
Barry McDonnagh
39   Posted 21/03/2008 at 10:46:39

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Cant be bothered to read it all but if we re-develop goodison, then while the seats are out of commission during the season we lose a load of revenue, millions to to honest. We cant afford it. plus half a stadium makes for poor atmosphere, remember Wimbledon anyone?
Off to Kirkby we go, wether we like it or not!
Erik Dols
40   Posted 21/03/2008 at 11:00:05

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Barry if you would have taken the time to read the comments you would have read that it isn?t that much of a problem, ie redevelop the park end in close season and you have a 48000-seater stadium. Why do you react when you don?t care to read on what you?re reacting?
Ron Leith
41   Posted 21/03/2008 at 11:06:28

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Unbelievably, some people still want to stay in the boundary of Liverpool City Council. Has anybody read that the same Council has refused planning permission to build houses on Bellefield. This is an essential way of providing funds for a new stadium but the Council who have alowed Liverpool FC to build on an historic park, increase their capacilty and gennerally give them everything thay want have turned down EFC. What other evidence do the KEIOC group need to indicate the Liverpool City Council are not going to deliver? It is all a load of bull.
Barry Scott
42   Posted 21/03/2008 at 11:14:29

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Ron, have you ever considered that LCC asked for the clause that that will see any money from the Bellefield sale will go towards a new stadium or redevelopment purposefully knowing they will refuse planning permission on Bellefield to stall Everton’s move out of their area?

LCC are desperate for Everton to stay.
Neil Morris
43   Posted 21/03/2008 at 10:16:37

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Damien Wilde, the people reponsible for the up-turn in Everton?s fortunes is David Moyes and the players ? nobody else. What has Kenwright or anybody on the Board done that has contributed to the recent sucesses on the pitch?? Half time team talk?s?? Bringing new tactics and training methods perhaps??

No they are invloved in the activies off the pitch and to be honest apart from selling off virtually every asset that the club own?s, posting another set of disasterous annual accounts and allowing a CEO to explore his own personal business interests as well as collecting a salary of over £400k a year off the club they are doing an excellent job aren?t they??

Your attitude of "if you don?t like it, don?t go" is the exact same attitude that Kenwright and the Board is coming out with. Pathetic!! If you can?t enter in a civilised debate and address what is a serious issue ? probably the most serious issue in the club?s history ? then don?t start your childish name-calling.

I used to give Kenwright the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time but his track record now is laughable and I now firmly believe that he is not the man to lead Everton at Goodison Park or anywhere else.

By the way, just out of interest, are you saying if somebody like Abramovich or his standing bought Everton you wouldn?t be happy?? I?m sure you?d be devastated. Even at the time when football was booming with money, Kenwright still couldn?t find any. He has now shown himself for what he is to me and that is a man totally out of his depth, totally out of touch with his fanbase, and a man who is not willing to listen to anybody else?s opinion that is in conflict with his.

Jay Harris, thanks for your comments; nice one, lad.
Damian Wilde
44   Posted 21/03/2008 at 11:30:24

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No wonder you ?no? voters get a bad name. Rich Jones, we are going though! As for coffee, no thanks I don?t like the stuff. As for 20 000 v Fulham, you psyhcic mate?

Aurther, maybe the no voters outnumber the yes voters in your circle, but were it matters (overall) it?s the other way around - ?fact?. The 27 million for Rooney, did DM do all the negotiations?? The man is skilled. I presume BK did nothing on that deal.

Erik, if you?re such an expert (and let?s face it nobody is on here but some like to think they are) go up and sort it all out Fella. Note I called you Fella, not twat like you did someone else, try to have a little class in your conduct, as I say that?s why ?no? voters have a bad name. They ram it down your throat and if you don?t agree you?re a ?twat?.

Neil, stating the obvious that BK doesn?t do team talks, etc. Who brought DM to the club, who didn?t sack him when many others wouldn?t, who has given him the cash (or got it off others) to buy the players DM has? Who sorts all the off-field stuff out (quite a bit to do with the club, hey???)? It?s just silly to say BK has done nothing towards out progress. Maybe you?ve made mistakes in your job, what if someone told you you had contributed fuck all to the organisation when you clearly had done some things well?

What I call childish is the ?well I?m not going then?... Like a kid who gets told they were going to McD?s, but now it?s Burger King and throws their dummy ou of the pram. All I?m saying is that I?m not bothered by these threats. I?ll continue to go to the match, whereever it is because I love my club.

Don?t make out you?re an expert on Everton bussines affairs because you?re all not, same as I am not. I like being run by a fan, considering the strengths and money of other clubs, we?re doing okay. I would not want us to be owned by some yank who?s not arsed about the club and don?t say BK isn?t arsed because he clearly loves the club whether his decisions are daft or not.

I just don?t understand why you lot get so worked up, we are going. Just try to look at things from a BALANCED point of view and don?t catastrophise and only focus on negatives, think more clearly. I see both sides. There?s good and bad things about the move. Why would we go if if was such a shit move? They obviously know more about it than us and don?t pretend you are fully in the know. I agree that they haven?t given us enough information though. Maybe it will turn out to be a bad thing, who knows?? We?ll see. But I know one thing, whether it be GP, Speke, or Kirkby, I?ll be there supporting the Blues and not be unbelievably bitter. It?s not in out hands, what will be will be. If you think putting in a petition will help, or march up to the ground, fair play.

I appreciate your views and there are some good points, let?s just keep it calm, balanced and civilized.
Paul Lally
45   Posted 21/03/2008 at 12:18:39

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Damian Wilde you say - ’I agree that they haven?t given us enough information though. Maybe it will turn out to be a bad thing,who knows’??
Exactly who does know.
Does that not bother you ?
No you are right - let’s just go. As we leave we can all stand and watch the first LFC spade going into the turf of Stanley Park.
Unbelievable.
Calm, balanced and civilised you say. That is all we are asking from BK re Goodison.
What is the problem with 1 more commissioned report being done - fairly and independently so we would all know either way ?
If it is no to Goodison for whatever reason then we can put it to bed and look at alternatives - not just Kirkby but Walton Hall, Bestway etc.
If Goodison can be developed then the whole argument is over and we stay.
1 report and move on.
The reason I and other supporters will not let this drop is because it is the biggest decision we will ever make in our lifetimes and for our future.
We will not have a world class stadium in Kirkby but in Goodison we have the potential to have one of the best and well known stadiums in the world plus the story to sell around the world of out history and rival club a stones throw away.
Our history alone will provide revenue streams world wide then add in a traditional but modernised stadium that is over a hundred years old and football purists and tourists will flock to visit.
Anyway £20,000 say for a report - completed in a couple of months !
Not a lot to ask is it ?
Tom Hughes
46   Posted 21/03/2008 at 12:23:34

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Damian,
BK was right in persevering with Moyes IMO. The Training facility also seems to be very good, although we don’t actually own it. Can you tell me much else that he or KW has got right? Commercially, we don’t appear to be doing too great, we have either farmed out or sold most of our assets and income earners. We can’t even sell out our tiny executive areas on a regular basis yet we are consistantly told we need more of them as another reason to run to Kirkby. It isn’t really about whether or not you or I will travel anywhere in Merseyside to watch our team. There are several thousand who will travel literally anywhere to do the same, but there’s not enough to fill a stadium anywhere! Kirkby and any edge-of-city/out-of-town location have serious logistical inadequacies that cannot not be readily addressed. Try both Kirkby and Speke retail park any rush hour, try it via public transport too. It’s simply not possible with the city’s infrastrucure to shift the numbers of people..... hence the impromptu change in transport strategy that was revealed. We need a facility that is more convenient, not less, otherwise the slightly less enthusiastic will be deterred (less 1 in 10 blues go "anywhere" to watch our team). Surely you don’t need to be an "expert" to recognise that much.
Jay Harris
47   Posted 21/03/2008 at 12:25:16

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Damian
the reason so many people are concerned with this move is twofold.

One they can't see the logic in it for EFC particularly as more information comes out.

And secondly they don?t trust BK for a lot of reasons which I have listed many times .

As for him negotiating the Rooney deal I can't even agree he did that well. He originally stated Rooney will not go for £50 million then 2 weeks later he?s accepting £20 million over 2 years with a few add ons over the next three seasons which add up to £26.5 million, some of which still hasn't been paid.

The reason the NO camp are so emotional about it is its irreversible.

I have been going to Goodison since 1958 as a 7-year-old with my father, uncle and grandfather. In the 60s Goodison had crowds of 65,000 for the big games and Anfield was a corrugated cowshed that even a current non-league side would be disappointed to play in. In derby games you were crushed so tight you couldn't even get out for a pee so people regularly pee?d all over other supporters... And as for restricted views, if you weren?t tall like me you had to ask others what was going on.

My reason for going on so much is you follow Everton despite restricted views, despite inadequate facilities, and because it brings out your emotions. I have been a season ticket holder for over 20 years and was lucky enough to be able to vote because I received my forms but I know quite a few people that have followed EFC like me and weren't qualified to vote and one or two that were and didn't receive their forms.

I also acknowledge that we need more corporate boxes, better facilities and improved views in some areas of GP. But to me and so many others KIrkby is totally wrong and no purpose is served in slagging off the NO camp because we feel that way.

We all love our club and evryone is entitled to a different opinion. Mine is that I wouldn't trust BK to run a sweet shop for me ? let alone manage a project of this magnitude.

Ron Leith
48   Posted 21/03/2008 at 12:56:02

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In response to Barry, I am a Chartered Town Planner with over 20 years experience so I am surprised about a clause that is infact illegal. Another example of the forked tongues of Liverpool City Council. It is a well known fact that any condition, clause etc has to be related to the development, reasonable and serve a clear planning purpose. Notwithstanding the bogus clause, permission was refused on traffic grounds as I understand. So why is a 70,000-seater New Anfield acceptable to the LCC clowns? KEIOC had better realise who they are getting into bed with...
Paul O'Neill
49   Posted 21/03/2008 at 12:38:30

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I am absolutely sick to death of hearing about this issue. I voted Yes by the skin of my teeth, I was literally sitting with the ballot paper in front of me unable to make up my mind. There was nothing concrete that was better at the time. I?ve since had second thoughts ? especially regarding the apparent increased cost and lack of transparency from the club, but I?m not going to wring my hands over that I?m afraid. If we end up with a new stadium I?ll go, if we don?t I?ll still go.

Just so you dyed-in-the-wool Scousers know by the way, outside of Liverpool absolutely everyone thinks Kirkby?s in Liverpool anyway, only in the most identity conscious, territorial city on Earth would this be an issue... I suppose that?s a good and unique thing, but in Manchesteer and other cities too boundaries are more blurred and people are generally more chilled out about what is not an especially important subject, but then you?ve just got the perspective of the scum of the Earth, a Manc who voted Yes.

I?m in the Upper Gwladys tomorrow if any bug-eyed, spit-flecked KEIOC evangelicals want to come tar and feather me. Happy Good Friday people! :.)

Paul Hardcastle
50   Posted 21/03/2008 at 13:07:07

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Paul,... "One report and move on" ...

While I fully support the points you make, I have to ask myself, could I trust a report like you describe comissioned by the Club? The decision has been made to go to Kirkby, and that is the real issue. Concoting a report that supports the EFC position, confirming that Goodison Park cannot be feasibly or economically redeveloped, would be a doozey... in fact, I believe it already exists, it just has not been made public.

We have to face the fact that the current custodians of this club we support and love have no interest in redeveloping Goodison Park. And plausible answers to the question, "Why Not???" have been alluded to many times on here... Follow the Money Trail.
Joe Ludden
51   Posted 21/03/2008 at 14:10:19

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Jay Harris is bang on regards BK and the Rooney deal. Who got the best deal on transfer deadline day that year? Everton, with installment payments and a shut transfer window, about to face The Arsenal without boy wonder? Or Man Utd who got a 17-year-old kid, with 15 years of making and scoring goals in him, signed for less than 50% of BK's own valuation?

Mr Wyness, even you have to agree that that is "the deal of the century" and not the £100m mortgage on the new plastic McDonalds Stadium in Kirkby. Lest anyone forget, BK hasn?t invested in EFC, all our expenditure is generated by our support, on match day and at your local JJB(!). BK is a failed Coronation Street actor, not a business man. Being an Evertonian doesn?t qualify you to run a big business like Everton.

Why do so many Yes voters simply want us all to be quiet and not ask questions? Is it because you are afraid of what the answers are I wonder? Goodison ForEver-ton.

Jim Hourigan
52   Posted 21/03/2008 at 14:06:56

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I?m sorry, folks, we don?t own the club and it's not a democracy unless the owners choose. They will do what they want be it staying or going. We are not Barcelona and whatever people say, and no matter how vehemently it is said, they will still do what they want.

Have they studied remaining at GP thoroughly enough? Well they say they have and effectively that is unlikely to change. If you want them to change you have to give them a reason and the only reason they will listen to is a wadge of money in the hand. Not projections of income streams or financial possibilities or inferences that LCC might help, someone give them a lot of millions to stay and I?m damn sure they would. But the key thing is GIVE THEM THE MONEY, don?t promise or speculate because business people don?t work like that.

However passionately the arguments are put, the only real thing that talks is money ? if I was a sugar daddy I?d give ?em the money to stay, but I?m not and I can?t see any on the horizon (BK?s fault or not!).

The club asked for a mandate to move and the mandate was set up on their terms ? rightly or wrongly, they have the authority to do that. Whatever our views on the justice of that vote, it achieved its aim as far as the suits are concerned.

So can GP be redeveloped? Well, all the experts in the world, and all the amateurs on this site, will not make a blind bit of difference unless someone stumps up the money.

So sadly boys it's an irrelevant argument and before you all scream about the injustice of it, or my ?lilly livered acceptance? come into the real world of business and put your money where your mouth is.

Joe Ludden
53   Posted 21/03/2008 at 14:29:18

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ps. Paul O’Neil... I live in Birmingham and Brummies are as territorial as any scouser regards city limits.. as are Geordies / Mackems.. them from Leeds etc etc etc. I guess its just the Mancs, who are desperate to have 2nd city status by trying to include greater manc as part of the city, who don’t care about boundaries.

The Everton issue about remaining in the city is understood down here as well as by all scousers. It’s not about moving to Kirkby for me, it’s about moving at all. We don’t need to. Goodison can be redeveloped. If it costs less than £100m then we are financially up on the Kirkby deal.
Colin Laphan
54   Posted 21/03/2008 at 15:25:38

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Amazing how well misconception, rumour, gossip and propoganda get all mixed up time after time.

The developers are paying for the complete,the entire,the all,the whole of ALL of the construction costs for the stadium.

It is absolute bollox to suggest we have or have to find £80 to £100 million, pure propoganda.
Colin Laphan
55   Posted 21/03/2008 at 15:32:26

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ps.... Everton have no money and cannot raise £80 to £100million, no matter how much the dreamers wish.

Anyone noticed btw the money problems raging in the city and the banking industry.

It makes the TESCO deal even more wonderous.

Keep dreaming, no point talking about facts as they don’t seem to matter in this "story!"
Tom Davies
56   Posted 21/03/2008 at 15:34:29

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Great article, there is only 1 thing on Bill Kenwright?s mind, money in his pocket. That is the only reason I can think of as to why he is acting the way he is over this stadium debate.

There is nothing wrong with Goodison Park, it is perfectly safe, has room for re-development and has perfectly good access that we are used to. If anyone complains about traffic or access they?re idiots because you are going to get those problems at any site.

I have said No to Kirkby from Day 1 and always will!
Michael Smith
57   Posted 21/03/2008 at 16:54:52

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Thanks for the reassurance Mr.Laphan, the amount of heresay and conjecture spilled out by amateur experts is laughable.

The current turbulence in the banking sector and world markets makes the rock solid alliance with Tesco appear even more desirable, the club have been and continue to be right.
Neil Adderley
58   Posted 21/03/2008 at 16:58:35

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Colin Laphan, you say "Amazing how ignorance still persists."

Well, from your privileged position, here is your chance to free the Evertonians from the shackles of ignorance;

* What are the "contingent liabilities" now in place for ?Destination Kirkby?"

* What is the total projected estimate for the naming rights of the proposed Kirkby Stadium?

* What is the total projected estimate for the sale of Goodison Park (with planning permission)?

* What is the total projected estimate for sale of Bellefield (with planning permission)?

Can you then tell us what the total of all of the above current projections will in fact be used for?

Our enlightenment is in your hands.

Thanks.
Damian Wilde
59   Posted 21/03/2008 at 18:03:49

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I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, all I was saying is that some No voters put theirs across in a very one sided, unblanced, and from some, in an aggressive manner.

As for the history of Goodison making millions around the world... I?m not sure about that. We need more than a few quid from history books and DVD?s.

People bang on about transport access; what, you reckon your car flows freely around Goodison Park?? Do you not think they?re looking into transport issues, etc. None of you guys are in on the planning side so you don?t really know (like I don?t know). There?s so much guesswork on this site, but to claim it?s true ? it?s unbelievable.

As for people saying that there?s nothing wrong with GP, facilities are fine, etc... do you really think that? I love the place and love going up the steps seeing the place and if we had the money to sort it out (as it needs work if we were to stay), fantastic, but it doesn?t seem like we have.

So, Kirkby it is. It won?t be GP, but at least the facilities will be decent; mind you I suppose someone is going to say how it will be a dump and we deserve better, well where?s the money?? I?ll miss the place like mad but it?ll be nice to be in somewhere modern and hopefully revenue will improve. Who knows!!

Jim Hourigan, good post.

Colin Laphan
60   Posted 21/03/2008 at 19:03:08

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Neil.

All that info. is already in the public domain.

I keep posting it....

The stadium build is free!!!

We pay for the fit-out. We use the proceeds from the items you listed to fund the fit out. The contingent liabilities are in place in case GP,Bellefield and the naming rights don’t cover the fit out cost.

Last figure was around £25m for a fit out.

If the money is raised as expected then Everton’s actual contribution could be a net zero. Although I think we may opt to increase the quality and incur £10 milliion cost.

Far cry from £100million.......
Tom Hughes
61   Posted 21/03/2008 at 18:36:33

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Damian,
The Football Research Unit and other bodies including Police authorities have research regarding things such as accessibility/transport at stadia. I believe someone posted a link during the vote, I?m sure someone would still have it. GP has one of the best dispersal rates of all Premier League grounds.

There are set criteria to assess this. There are also some websites containing studies of the success of the new generation of downtown stadia in the US that have been replacing the out-of-town stadia. However, regardless of these stats/studies, just make a simple assessment of the public transport capacities. The club?s own transport consultants have stated that this is no greater than 3-5,000 per hour for Kirkby. This is a fraction of that at Walton, and only a few percent of that for the Loop, so if you struggle now at Goodison you can only imagine what?s in store in Kirkby.

Strange also that planners have assessed and allowed for a potentially 75k seater on the park using precisely the same infrastructure. Look at how many districts of Merseyside have direct bus/train services for either site, there really is no comparison. Hardly any areas in Liverpool or the Wirral have regular direct bus services to Kirkby. It is a small out-of-town estate with consequently small provision.

Before people say the extra services will come for the new shops, I would ask you to look at what extra services there are for the Speke Retail park which is similar in size to that proposed for Kirkby..... There are none! This doesn?t require any expertise just a bit of local knowledge.

No-one has said GP doesn?t require attention, some (even KW) have said that it is falling down, and will soon be unfit for purpose via some imaginary legislation, that even the editor of the current green guide says does not exist. It has been demonstrated by several people that GP can be redeveloped (some of whom are experts), and it is the ONLY place where it can be done incrementally in affordable phases, and it is the only place that preserves our history, that offers continuity and has proven transport infrastructure. I suppose it depends on how much value you place on those assets.

Neil Morris
62   Posted 21/03/2008 at 19:19:14

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Damien your are entitled to your opinion and that is fine. I am very civilised about this matter because my anger is not vented towards Yes voters it is directed towards Kenwright for putting Evertonians in this position in the first place.

By the way mate Kenwright never stumped up the money for transfers the last few years yet again the banks did. Everton borrowed again because our chairman has no money and has no intention of pouring any of his limited resources into the club. When he goes with his pockets lined the club (us) are left with the debt.

Good talkin to you mate regardless of the difference in opinion.
Tom Hughes
63   Posted 21/03/2008 at 19:37:05

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Colin,
You appear to be still quoting KW’s pre-vote figures. It would be interesting to see you link that to any more recent official statements.

I doubt you would be prepared to put your house on your "stadium for zero" statement? Even KW only said it was "practically nothing" back then. Hasn’t said much recently though.
Jack Parker
64   Posted 21/03/2008 at 20:02:32

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I was never in favour of Kirkby but I?ve sensed a sea-change recently in people's views towards it, I don't know whether it's the general bleak economic outlook or what but the Tesco deal/package is looking more like that ?deal of the century? after all ? not that the anti-Kirkby fundamentalists will ever agree.

I don't think its in Mr. Laphan's interest to peddle lies on an internet site at this late stage of the process (long after the ballot and still no alternatives/packages being thrown at us by LCC) when he has nothing to lose/gain by doing so.
Neil Adderley
65   Posted 21/03/2008 at 20:30:51

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Colin,
I asked you four straight forward questions;

* What are the "contingent liabilities" now in place for ?Destination Kirkby?"

* What is the total projected estimate for the naming rights of the proposed Kirkby Stadium?

* What is the total projected estimate for the sale of Goodison Park (with planning permission)?

* What is the total projected estimate for the sale of Bellefield (with planning permission)?

You accuse Evertonians of ignorance on the stadium finance issue. Four straight answers from yourself would, I?m sure you?d agree, go some way to lifting that particular cloud.

Thanks.
Terry Maddock
66   Posted 21/03/2008 at 20:07:04

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While I agree that everybody is entitled to their opinion on this subject, some of the points being put forward are ludicrous.

I think the one that galls me most is the constant berating of the Board of Directors (the owners of this buisness) for the fact that they may actually want to line their pockets. I thought that was the point of a buisness?
Also, most buisnesses make money for their owners when they are successful... yes?

So, if I owned a buisness that was millions in debt and on a downward spiral, I need to get a manager in to stop this... I may need to restructure the buisness, perhaps consolidate the debt. If I can broker a deal for new more modern premises which could actually make my buisness more attractive to a prospective buyer... hmmmmm now theres a novel idea?

So ... I ask a few friends to invest in purchasing better merchandise (AJ, Yak, Lescott, Hoawrd etc etc) because this better merchandise will (if used to its full potential) INCREASE in value... making it more attractive to the consumer (fans). They can then (if they want to) sell on their investment ...at A PROFIT!!!

So basically the only way that Bill and Wyness and Co make any money (or return on their investment) is to make the club more successful.....
So if they make millions hen Im happy..

It's not a conspiracy... it's a buisness..and it's their buisness... not yours. They don't have to share their private buisness with you; they don't have to tell you how much it costs... you are a customer... they only have to tell you how much the product you wish to buy will cost you ... and it's then up to them to provide the best enviroment for its customers in which to enjoy and continue to purchase that product..
Gavin Ramejkis
67   Posted 21/03/2008 at 21:11:45

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Damian, as a regular visitor to Ibrox as a guest of a work colleague, I have stated on this site before that that place is graded as a Champions League venue and having sat in three of the four stands, the toilets and food vending inside is as shite as that at Goodison. Of all the Premier League grounds, I can say that only the Emirates and Old Trafford have struck me as modern spanking all singing all dancing and look at that as a proportion of total grounds in the EPL. As long as there are clean usable toilets and shops I personally don?t give a monkey?s. I go to the match to watch the football, the corporate dollar is worth more than our?s and they are never sold out as it is.
Damian Wilde
68   Posted 21/03/2008 at 21:34:00

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Some good points Fellas, fair play to you. Fair enough, GP can be redeveloped. I’d prefer to stay there if it was done up, etc. Does anybody know about
- how much it would cost?
- Where we’d get the money?
- When done, would the redeveloped GP generate enough revenue?

I’ve been to the Emirates, comfy seats and loads of leg room!! Ya can’t beat the Lower Bullens though!
Paul Johnson
69   Posted 21/03/2008 at 21:28:39

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Tom.... I?d stake my house on us getting the stadium for nearly free. And you know why? Because there?s not a hope of us raising 80-100 million pounds. And everyone knows it, including Tesco and Knowsley Council.
Tom Hughes
70   Posted 21/03/2008 at 21:47:36

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Colin,

A Quote from another Everton website.......

Robert Earl, a club director said at the last AGM: "The Kirkby stadium cost was around £50 million when first floated. After the feasibility study and the Board?s wish that supporters only received the highest quality seating, facilities, environment etc., the cost rose to about £75 million.

Due to construction costs, the figure then became approximately £100 million. Now, because construction costs have risen again, the total stadium cost at Kirkby is in the region of almost £150 million".

Not sure of the validity of this..... is it a direct quote? I was away for the last AGM. If so, how does this equate to your earlier figures, or do we have floating enabling values also?
Tom Hughes
71   Posted 21/03/2008 at 21:54:00

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Paul,
Then who will foot the bill. Tesco have already stated categorically that they will not be paying for it, and if the original enabling development values are fixed, who will meet the stadium cost increases the club themselves have recently outlined?
Paul Johnson
72   Posted 21/03/2008 at 22:09:08

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Tom, Tesco will be footing the bill. Irrespective of what is said publicly. If it?s left to Everton Football Club to fund it won?t happen. And as I?ve previously said Tesco and Knowsley Council will be fully aware of that and will have been aware of that from day one.
Tom Hughes
73   Posted 21/03/2008 at 22:00:41

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Damian,
The cost of redevelopment is dependent on the the scope of work required. Increasing capacity can be achieved relatively cheaply. Just adding a further 30 rows to the existing Park end would bring us up to approx 46,000 seats, and would probably cost no more than £10-15m. Or, knocking the existing stand down and building a new state of the art Double-decker that joins with the Bullens, with 15-16k seats would bring the capacity upto 50k+ (cost £25-40m depending on format). This could incorporate premier seating in the first few rows of the upper tier with supporting lounges etc. The Bullens could also have approx 20 new rows placed behind the upper tier extending this, and increasing the capacity by a further 5,000 with a new roof removing all upper tier obstructions. This would preserve an iconic and historic structure, and would enable increased and much improved concourse areas for this stand. This relatively basic structure would probably cost a further £10-15m. Or, a row of exec quality boxes/sky-boxes could be placed along the back of this stand instead with a new roof. Lower Bullens/Paddock would be re-profiled to get rid of rearmost rows and the worst obstructed views. Re-roofing Gwladys Street, and mainstand with goal post trusses or catenary supported roof structures would further reduce obstructed seats. An exec balcony could be added below the Top Balcony getting rid of the poorer seats at the rear of the mainstand. This could be done over a series of phases, and if for instance the Upper Bullens extension was done first, there would never be a lower capacity than the current one throughout the process. Of course there are a multitude of variations on the theme.
Tom Hughes
74   Posted 21/03/2008 at 22:25:59

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Paul,
......and how will a plc justify that to its shareholders, and why has that never been stated? Why didn’t this happen at Coventry?
Jay Harris
75   Posted 21/03/2008 at 22:44:10

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Paul
At first I thought you were being sarcastic but now I?m really starting to think that you believe the new stadium will cost Everton nothing.

If this is a belief of some of the Yes voters then no wonder you voted Yes.

Get real my friends.

NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE.

TESCO are not contributing anything to KIrkby except the development people they use at the cost they charge Tesco.

The Land is not free it is leased.

The only deal of the century is not for EFC or its supporters.



Terry Maddock, in principle you are correct but directors usually have to invest to get a return.

In this case the club was put in debt for BK to get his majority shareholding and the main objection is not how much if anything BK or KW get its the fact that they are a pair of incompetent fools that are leading us down a path that many thousands of longstanding Evertonians do not want.
Neil Pearse
76   Posted 21/03/2008 at 22:58:22

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There are a lot of important issues being debated here, and since I have posted often on this subject before, I won’t repeat (in a nutshell I am a Yes voter who does not believe we can stay long-term at Goodison and be economically viable, and doesn’t think that, absent a very rich new owner, we can afford any other option because they will all be more expensive than Kirkby).

But I did want to make one point. Many of you criticise the club for "selling all its assets". I’m sorry, but this is a complete red herring. It is now utterly standard business practice to sell off and contract out business assets and non-core services. Everybody does it. Of course, you may underprice your assets and get poor services - but there is nothing at all wrong with not owning anything. I used to work for a company who didn’t own a stick of furniture and leased everything. They are doing fine.
Paul Johnson
77   Posted 22/03/2008 at 00:54:27

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Tom, for someone who is obviously a very intelligent man you seem to be trying to come across as someone who’s very naive. Bottom line for shareholders is profit. If Tesco profit from the deal then you won’t hear a peep out of them.
.
Jean Philibossian
78   Posted 22/03/2008 at 02:23:57

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Terry Maddock is right.

It is a business. And it is their business.

So, once more to us No Voters, we need to stop going to games NOW.

Let’s see how THEY stump up THEIR cashflow without us.

Personally, I am tired of arguing with the Damien Wildes of the world.

It is time for REAL and DRASTIC action. If indeed we do believe (as many of us seem to) that the No voters do outnumber the Yes Voters. It is time to stop arguing amongst ourselves, and dig our proverbial staves into the ground and make the stand as a collective that we feel we need to make to keep OUR club (not Bill’s or Keith’s) in the direction we want it to.

I propose we begin organising a concerted effort and a mass agreement to avoid certain matches in mass numbers.

We are all well aware by now that anything else will do nothing to change the boards’ already made up minds.
Paul Gittens
79   Posted 22/03/2008 at 10:08:15

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Can Goodison be redeveloped?
Probably.
Will it ever be redeveloped?
No.
Joe Ludden
80   Posted 22/03/2008 at 10:11:38

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Jean - you get my vote. A mass protest of boycotting certain home fixtures is the best way to show the board and the yes voters how many of us feel so strongly about the issue. It pains me to say it, because such a protest can only harm our on field interests. A necessary evil if ever their was on.

To all yes voters and in particular those who think we are all just wasting our time discussing the subject still, read Tom Hughes discussions regards GP redevelopment, and also the now huge amounts of infomation online on this site and on KEIOC.net regards redeveloping GP. Some no voters do come across as angry and annoyed, but this is because yes voters have an opinion which they air vociferously, but without full knowledge of the alternatives to a move to Kirky. This is indeed most annoying.

Paul - in the words of Bill Gates "I did not get rich by writing a lot of cheques". Mr Tesco did not and does not either. Moving from GP to get into bed with Tesco is like selling your soul to the devil. Even if you make a profit, the devil will always own you. Please try to remember our club motto. It is the best we crave, not the cheapest.
Tom Hughes
81   Posted 22/03/2008 at 12:10:43

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Paul,
You may be right, I don’t profess to being business minded at all. I’m an engineer in the business of seeking solutions to problems.

However, Tesco’s well documented insistance that they will not be paying towards the stadium (lie or not) indicates that they will not be meeting a shortfall which appears to have grown a lot since the vote, or at least they certainly don’t want to admit to it. Why would this be? This will be especially acute if alternative schemes gain some momentum whereby Tesco can get their development or part of it without a stadium. Shareholders will get their profit without the substantial gift to a football club supported by its chairman.
Colin Laphan
82   Posted 22/03/2008 at 12:37:57

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Tom, your redevelopment ideas are very poorly thought out.

The ground is not fit for purpose and you singularly fail to see the actual point here.

It’s not about capacity so much much as experience. Nearly 20% of present capacity can’t see all the pitch... Corporate facilities are naff, GP is a physical limitation on our drive for increasing turnover to spend on the team.

Just adding a few more crappy seats is a pointless vain waste of time.

I suggest you understand the problems before you provide a one size fits all solution. Unfortunately you seem to have the ear of many people on here yet your words are hollow.

Your costings fail to take into account the negative effects of construction.

What about the games where we don’t have 100% capacity, how are you going to get extra income from these games? How are you going to solve the sight line issues, the desperate catering and hygiene facilities? oops the bills start to rise.... the need to actually spend around £130 million or maybe £230 million starts to appear......

Serious discussion needs needs serious costed proposals.....
Colin Laphan
83   Posted 22/03/2008 at 12:57:37

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Tom why do you like others peddle the idea that the developers won’t be paying for the stadium construction.

Very sad that you resort to these tactics.

The inability to overcome the hurdle that is the provision of a "free" stadium is holding back the KEIOC campaign. Unfortunately for you the only reason the board ever even considered such a radical move was the provision of a "free" stadium.

How hard is it for this simple concept to be understood?

Perhaps your efforts and others are sadly misplaced? Surely your efforts would be better focused on ensuring we get the best stadium possible.... in Kirkby.
Neil McKinney
84   Posted 22/03/2008 at 12:31:50

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This shit nearly drove me away from this site. I’ve read through a lot of the posts above and there are interesting points from both sides. However, the points are not validated any more than the crap that spews from the club or KEIOC for that matter.

The reason the argument continues is that there don’t seem to be any "facts" that can’t be disputed in some way, by somebody.

I would like to see an end to fellow Evertonians accusing each other of "voting for the slow death of the club" and other such tripe. Do you really think that’s what yes voters want? If you do your an idiot. Maybe it will turn out to be the wrong decision, maybe it won’t, but accusing blues of consciously voting for the death of their club is rediculous and ignorant.

The counter insult of put up and shut up cos we’re going is no better. If people feel strongly about the issue then they have the right to debate it, problem is that it always seems to be the same arguments. We never seem to get any closer to the truth, just more conjecture and speculation.

I just hope it all works out in the end as I didn’t get a vote anyway. I suppose to some people that means I don’t really count.

COYB
Tim Davis
85   Posted 22/03/2008 at 14:12:25

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Oh dear... the dreaded boycott of the ground raised by some so-called ?Evertonians?. It will fall on deaf ears ? the same deaf ears when KEIOC called for a protest after the Utd game back in September ? when only 20-30 turned up...
Tom Hughes
86   Posted 22/03/2008 at 14:08:01

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Colin,
I don’t believe you answered Neil’s questions yet before you attempt to have a go at my suggestions, which incidentally are based on years of experience as a fully qualified design engineer with experience working on substantially larger and more complex construction projects than the Kirkby one.



"It?s not about capacity so much much as experience."


I have been attending GP for nearly 40 yrs and have visited many of the world’s major stadia and arenas.

"Nearly 20% of present capacity can?t see all the pitch..."


I’m really not sure what your problem is, I cannot explain it in plainer english. We can get rid of the vast majority of the existing obstructed views by building just one new stand and re-roofing the others. Furthermore, the additional capacity will be all unobstructed views. Two new stands could reduce this further. The scheme I posted on KEIOC’s site has none!

"Corporate facilities are naff",

I agree, but the corporate provision can be transformed, by either placing an exec tier beneath the existing Top Balcony, and/or Boxes above the existing Bullens. There is nothing prohibitive or unusual in that suggestion.


"Just adding a few more crappy seats is a pointless vain waste of time."

A 20 row tier of seats at a rake of 34 degrees behind the existing Bullens will not be "crappy seats", they will all have sightlines c-values greater than 60mm, with the front rows considerably better than that. Their viewing distances will all be a minimum of 15m less than the corresponding rows at Kirkby with better viewing angle and aspect angle than anything at Kirkby..... of course your superior knowledge of sightline geometry will allow you to verify that.




"I suggest you understand the problems before you provide a one size fits all solution. Unfortunately you seem to have the ear of many people on here yet your words are hollow."

I suggest you do your homework before you attempt to insult fellow blues. Nothing so hollow as words that say nothing methinks. The rest of your diatribe suggests you haven’t even read my input nor even that of KSS.

Must try harder?!


Paul Johnson
87   Posted 22/03/2008 at 14:38:07

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Tom, the way I understand it is that any development needs the stadium to avoid it being called in. Should this change then I have no doubt that the stadium will not be built and we will be staying at Goodison. And it seems to me the only people who are claiming a shortfall have an agenda. And that is to stop the move at any cost.
Tom Hughes
88   Posted 22/03/2008 at 15:18:03

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Paul,
Robert Earl himself stated the issue of increased cost at the last AGM, see the quote above. Even Mr Laphan hasn’t refuted that one yet, and to be honest it was only a speculative readily available one on my part, I’m sure there are more where that one came from. Increased costs should equal short fall, unless someone can explain the mechanics of this to prove otherwise. There are detailed appraisals carried out by far more experienced business people than me that would suggest that "practically nothing" was always fanciful, nevermind the zero cost scenario. There are alternative redevelopment schemes for Kirkby which are fully compiant with the UDP, some involving Tesco, some not. Also, the scheme proposed by Tesco is subject to more constraints than the UDP. Surrounding authorities have ALL registered some form of protest, when formalised that alone can get it called in.
Tim Davis
89   Posted 22/03/2008 at 17:23:57

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Correct Paul, the stadium as a flagship and internationally known structure and brand would put Kirkby and Knowsley on the map. The community/conferencing facilities at the ground as well as being home to EFC is just what the doctor ordered for the development, its akin to the type of major regeneration that New Labour are always banging on about for poor areas.

I think Tom and others banging on about UDP/RSS violations is a red herring, developments get proposed every week that violate these policies but they arnt often £400m regeneration projects that have developers WHO CAN DELIVER their promises. Its not widely spoke about but a stadium+development on Scotland Road between the city centre and project Jennifer would be against (wait for it)....Liverpools UDP but Tom and his minions never like to talk about that - and as for a stadium+supermarket on a Walton public park - well I wonder why cllr Bradley and LCC kept that quiet? Answers on a postcard....

Oh one final point - the Regional Spatial Strategy is being changed so it means Knowsley will no longer be the odd one out of most of the NW councils in not allowing a retail development the size Kirkby is getting - the stadium is the icing on the cake in almost guaranteeing approval.
Damian Wilde
90   Posted 22/03/2008 at 21:24:08

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Fair points on both sides But Jean, do you really think mass numbers will stay away? Don’t be ridiculous. You stay at home with you a cup of tea when we play Derby and see what difference it will make. None. Support your side.

You saw when those dickheads from across the park kept protesting against the yanks, I was loving it because I think it had a negative impact on the club and team.

I respect views from both side but don’t agree with the idea of a walkout and don’t for one second think it would ever come off anyway.
Jim Lloyd
91   Posted 22/03/2008 at 20:53:21

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Not being an expert in stadium design, engineering, business, transport...or anything else for that matter, I can only speak from the heart, from what I’ve seen and read and the conclusions I’ve reached, about our situation.
I can only say that instinctively, something really stinks about all this. I believe that if we were Liverpudlians, we would be screaming from the rooftops at what is going on. Does anyone seriously consider that they would dream of leaving this city? They could probably get away with it, having both the money and the name but they would never do it, not in a million years.
The contributers on this forum who appear to have either voted, or are willing to go along with, the move to Kirkby, don’t seem to worry about moving out of our city.
Well I do. I have been going to Goodison Park since 1960 and, like every other Evertonian, love the old place but recognise we need to consider our future.
The trouble is..I cannot trust Kenwright and Wyness to act in the best interests of Everton Football Club and its supprters.
I look at the man’s history and something isn’t right.
The Albert Dock! What a wonderful site, a once in a lifetime opportunity...gone. I believe that we lost it because Kenwright wanted Gregg to pay for it but for him to stay as Chair.
Well, even now, when there appear to be alternatives (Walton Hall Park, The Loop, Redevelop Goodison) he is not willing to listen.
I agree with Jean Philibossian. The only chance we have to get a proper look at all the aslternatives , is to stay away, so that he gets the message. That will be the only thing that will worry him. He will just laugh when he reads some of our contributers when they say "Oh well Bill’s a blue!"
If this move ever takes place.. there is no way back. We will have just handed this city to LiverpoolFootball Club.
John Collins
92   Posted 23/03/2008 at 08:46:55

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Here’s something i’ve never read before about this debate:

We don’t need a new stadium bigger than 40,000 because in the very near future we won’t be able to fill it...

I have worked in Education all of my life and each year have seen less interest in football by ’the kids’ each year.

To most ’playing football’ is playing it on the PS3, and ’watching the match’ means wtching it on sopcast.

The shift has happened already - we have already lost the next generation.

Joe Ludden
93   Posted 23/03/2008 at 10:22:10

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Damian - how else do you think we should show our disapproval, other than a stay away? Do you not realise that we, those who realise what is going on, are almost at a state of panic that Goodison is even in the balance, let alone already consigned to the annals of history? Too many supporters are far too relaxed about the subject. Too many think BK is a good chairman purely cus he is a blue. You yourself started this discussion as a yes voter. Then you admitted there was more to it. Still you are far too relaxed about the subject. Goodison Park is a part of the history of the game, and we cannot give it up just for a "keeping up with the jones’s" mentality. We all know we wont fill a 55,000 seater stadium week in and week out (unless we get successful), and we all know that GP is not about to fall down. Get passionate about the place. Im passionate because I started going to GP in the mid 1980’s, my father before me in the mid 1930’s, my grandfather in the mid 1910’s. God willing and BK & KW aside, I hope to take my children to the Grand Old Lady one day too. Forgive me if I dont think that Wyness has the right to take that from me and my fellow supporters. Again i suggest all undecided and yes voters spend a day researching the excellent contributions of Tom Hughes and all the redevelopment studies of GP on this site and on keioc.net. Wake up. Tesco are not going to build a stadium for us. Robert Earl has admitted it will cost EVERTON £150m, tied to the club in debt. The AGM in December 2007 is published online. Wake up Toffees. Nil Satis Nisi Optinum. Nil Satis! Why aren’t you all as angry as the rest of us???
John Cartwright
94   Posted 23/03/2008 at 13:35:19

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Nobody can really comment on this as we dont really know the in?s and out?s. Maybe Goodison can be redeveloped but is it really worth it? Football stadiums in the modern game have to be able to offer a lot more than just a surface to play on and accomadation fo 50,000+ fans, they have to include conference facilities, vip lounges etc etc.

Is the area surrounding Goodison big enough to offer the space for fans and the playing surface? Well yes it is, but it most certainly isn't big enough to offer other things which will be important in raising revenue. For that reason, we should move as staying at Goodsion isn't financially viable, short or long term.

Tom Hughes
95   Posted 23/03/2008 at 13:39:28

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Tim,
Talking of red herrings........ I have a copy of our UDP..... please point me to the section that says a stadium at the Loop violates this in any way. I find it peculiar that the proposals in principle got the approval of the city planning office at every level with no mention whatsoever of violations. In fact, the planning office sees such a scheme as a great bridging project between the massive city-centre developments and Project jenifer, in much the same way as those many new downtown stadia in the US have acted as catalysts for redevelopment of decaying inner city areas (been to Everton lately).

You are correct in saying that projects have got through these type of obstacles before, but not when so many surrounding councils have reason to object. The grosvenor development and the various others in the city centre dwarfs the Kirkby proposals. There is real concern that another out-of-town retail development would be a threat to the success of this major investments. Combined with the fact that fewer of these retail developments are getting the go-ahead, regardless of who the backers are, would IMO only reinforce those obstacles.
Barry Scott
96   Posted 23/03/2008 at 16:37:09

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John Collins, I agree with you, it’s because of the high ticket prices that kids are not in attendance at the game. We need a larger capacity and be able to offer initiatives to kids to come to the match such as Tranmere’s idea of quid for a kid etc.
Damian Wilde
97   Posted 23/03/2008 at 16:31:24

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Joe, I don’t like your tone. ’Do you realise, we, who not what is going on’. Who do you think you are? Arrogant man.

Get passionate about the place? Are you taking the piss? I love the place, I’ve been passionate in that place hundresds of times.

I said I repsect views on both sides and some of the ’no’ voters have made some good points which I have listened to. But, you one of the peope who give ’no’ voters a bad name. A sort of ’we’re right, just look at our sites, points, etc. I have. I see points on both sides, but for various reasons (which I can’t be bothered typing again) I voted with the majority of fans ’yes’.

As for staying away, do it Joe, but about 20 people might stay away (if that). It would never come off and would make no difference and I think deep down you know that. If you have other suggestions that make sense and might come off I’d gladly listen. Just do me a favour and don’t disrespect me, my intelligence, or my views.
Neil Adderley
98   Posted 23/03/2008 at 16:30:02

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Tim Davis.

Tom Hughes is correct in regards to a development at the loop and the current Liverpool UDP.

On your final point regarding the RSS;

"Oh one final point - the Regional Spatial Strategy is being changed so it means Knowsley will no longer be the odd one out of most of the NW councils in not allowing a retail development the size Kirkby is getting - the stadium is the icing on the cake in almost guaranteeing approval."

The Secretary of State?s decisions on the recommendations of the panel which conducted the examination in public on the draft RSS are now entering a final consultation period (six weeks).

I am afraid though Tim, if you are expecting Kirkby to be bumped up the heirarchical settlement, you are mistaken. In fact if anything, the recommended ammendments to the RSS indicate that the Tesco proposal for Kirkby, and who would have thought it possible, conflicts even more with the Regional Spatial Strategy.

The recommended ammendments are to be found here:

http://gonw-consult.limehouse.co.uk/portal

Click on "Sustainability Appraisal" to see the proposed changes.
Joe Ludden
99   Posted 23/03/2008 at 16:55:25

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Damian - no disrespect intended, if you implied it, maybe think why? You are a blue, I know. So am I. But you need to justify being blue and also agreeing to leave Goodison. I can't reconcile myself to that. Especially when I understand that GP has a simmilar footprint size to Old Trafford.

I will never step foot in McDonalds Arena, Kirkby, nor my children. My grandfather rolls in his grave. How dare you make me do that to him. Arrogant? Yes I am, I am oft excused of it. But on this occasion, I am right to be so. I would go for a beer with you and we could share our views, and I am totally convinced, like this blog, you would end up agreeing that GP redevelopment needs more research.

Peace to all all blues, and Happy Easter. I'm a blue and a footballer, so these words make sense more than ever: "Never turn your back". Think about GP when you do. I'm sorry if I have offended, but GP is too damn precious, she is a fundamental part of Everton Football Club. We are born...not manufactured......

Joe Ludden
100   Posted 23/03/2008 at 17:22:18

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PS. Damian, please address the issue of the missing £150m required by Everton to pay for Kirkby (Robert Earl, AGM December 2007). You suggest I am arrogant, I suggest you have no answers. You are sitting on the fence - do you enjoy the sensation? Do you really expect a private unconnected business to build us a stadium costing £150m? Are you completely f*$%ing crazy? Anyone got an example of a supermarket chain spending such money on a football club before? No one? Anyone? Headline news: Tesco gives Everton £150m. Now theres the deal of the century. Only prob, not seen that headline yet....

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