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Pondering the Big Move

By Ed Fitzgerald :  23/04/2008 :  Comments (85) :
This piece was posted by Ed as a response to Neil Pease in an ongoing thread concerning Destination Kirkby. If you're not following those threads, you are missing out on some excellent discussion and top quality writing, of which this one stood out ? The Editor.

Neil,

I like reading your posts; they are reasoned and non-confrontational even though I disagree with the sentiment of them. Whether Kenwright has turned away investors is something we don?t really know. What we do know is that any major investor would want control ? something Kenwright seems loathe to hand over. Whatever you think about Paul Gregg, he had a lot more financial clout than Billy Boy, but BK wanted to retain control.

Your comment about other Premier League owners is interesting. Would you call idiots and charlatans the type of people who would mislead people to ensure they get a result they want?? Billy is not a crook ? he does not have the nous.

If Kenwright publicly stated that he wanted to relinquish control of the Blues to ensure the club got the best possible financial deal, how do we know we would not get investment that could transform our club on and off the pitch? I think you are letting him off a little lightly Neil.

I would love to stay at Goodison but I am not against changing grounds or even sharing a ground with Liverpool. (Surely if Lazio and Roma can share then we could.) I am against change that weakens our club for some very dubious short-term benefits and condemns us to a bleaker long-term future.

For mid-level stadium read middle-of-the-table team. Wyness and Kenwright remind me of Thatcher?s statement in the 1980s ?there is no alternative? because that?s the way the vote was managed by the club. It was either move or Goodison rots into the ground and we would never attract any future investment; I think this is a fantasy.

Now of course we cannot build a stadium without major investment from external sources whether it be in Kirkby or in Liverpool but in my opinion the move to Kirkby is a profoundly dangerous move for the club. I believe we are ?giving up? our ambitions to ever compete at the top of English Football. That does not even begin to consider the issue of our abandoning our heritage and traditions and the place of the club within the community.

Some of the posts on the website appear to think these factors are unimportant but I believe they are ? to use the marketing jargon ? part of the "branding" that attracts average gates of 37,000. It seems the stadium move is being touted as a way to attract a new breed of supporter who has no allegiance with the City of Liverpool, who are these people and where are they going to come from?

When a company effectively pisses off a considerable proportion of its customers, it is likely to lose some of that business. From a commercial perspective this is fine if those customers are replaced by new ones but somehow I don?t see this happening.

If or when we go to Kirkby I will sadly go no more, for the simple reason we will be Everton no longer but some bastardised chimera that would be as well being called Knowsley Tesco Warriors or whatever.

For those that will come on the site and condemn me for saying that I am unrepentant. It is a shameless sell-out. I am proud to have been born in the City of Liverpool and it is where our team belongs ? not on a soulless retail park outside the City.

I am not anti-progress, I just don?t believe it is progress. I walk around Liverpool City Centre and I see a City transforming itself, reinventing itself at the same time one of the City?s foremost cultural institutions is sold out by those who are entrusted to run it. It is tragic... I suspect we all know it is (even yes voters); sadly some of us believe (or have been manipulated to believe) that there is no alternative, but of course there always is if you choose to think more expansively than the short term.

Reader Comments

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Jay Harris
1   Posted 24/04/2008 at 06:16:19

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Ed,
I totally agree with you.

Some points for everybody to ponder:

Let?s consider the reasons for moving from Goodison

1. We need a "world class" stadium to attract the best players and generate more income and attract more fans and sell more corporate facilities.

2.GP facilities in some ways are inadequate and there are restricted views and not enough corporate boxes.

3. We have no money (At least the board have no money and nobody willing to invest in them) so we need a "FREE" stadium.

Does KIrkby satisfy any of these criteria:

1. It is certainly NOT "world class" and IMO will not attract more fans nor corporate income because of its location (on a Tesco car park in an undesirable out-of-town location with very poor transport links and infrastructure.)

2. The facilities will undoubtedly be better with less restrictive views and empty corporate boxes although the transport and infrastructure is only suitable for 40,000 residents not for 55,000 fans every matchday(As outlined by Everton?s own transport advisors).

3.Kirkby is NOT FREE! ? it will cost between £80 and £135 million.

Now there is very little to secure it on or contribute to it as all our assets including GP are currently mortgaged and we are currently making operating losses although i WOULD EXPECT BETTER THIS YEAR AS THE SKY MONEY HAS GONE UP.

Now looking at future projections, let?s say we start with a £10 million per year interest bill to service this loan before signing new players and higher wages etc. and let?s say we still average the same gates at Kirkby (we will win some lose some and there are a lot of Evertonians who will NOT go to Kirkby so let?s say theoretically we make them up although I don?t know where from), and let?s say gate receipts go up by £2 million a year because of increased prices. I cannot for the life of me see us getting more corporate events in KIrkby but let?s say we do and that adds another £1 million a year. Let?s assume naming rights generate another £2.5 million a year..... That leaves a shortfall of £4.5 million a year ? hardly the ?Deal of the Century and very high risk.

So logically why were the board pushing it so hard and what has changed since?

There is no doubt some strange goings on behind the scenes as EFC have been totally silent on this one for months and you would have expected them to be singing from the rafters about the"Deal of the Century".

My personal opinion is that I have no problem with a mid-class stadium if that is all we can afford but I have major problems with the board who I don?t consider able enough to run a small store let alone an institution like Everton and I don?t trust them because of the continuing stream of lies coming out of GP.

I also have major problems with the location but more from its lack of transport and infrastructure than its distance from the city although I think that too is an issue for a number of longstanding supporters.

And BKites please don?t come on with tripe like "we?re moving get on with it" because that adds nothing to the discussion and only shows you up as a narrow-minded sheep. (Neil excepted of course).
Alan Willo
2   Posted 24/04/2008 at 07:52:06

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What a surprise TW heads another No slant, I think the editor has nailed his colors to the mast!! The above article just shows how narrow minded some people are in the City of doom. I?m not going to the new Stadium because it?s outside the City! I park my car on Stuart Road by Hillside School, guess what???that?s in Sefton!! Not Liverpool, oh my God what shall I do now. I will return my season ticket until I get a parking space in this alleged ?great city?.

I have no problem with No being passionate about the team we all love but it?s a simple issue we have no money, no commercial backer so options are limited to say the least so we have to make good out of a poor situation. Basic economics we need a handout to survive and that?s what we are doing the only sad thing is no other party or business wishes to offer us a handout. EFC ltd have to either sit on their hands and stay in a tip or make a decision to move and they have done that with the backing of the commercially committed fans.

I was christened at St Lukes, lived next to GP all my younger years (and my family still do) but I can see life does still go on outside County Road. I live in big smoke but love going home to see EFC especially seeing my friends in the pubs of County Road but life goes on if we move to Kirkby, we support Everton FC not GP and that love should make you visit us 3 miles away from our past home. I travel round trip 500 miles for home games and you can?t be bothered going 3 or so miles, Shame on you!!! You?re not a proper fan, just a stubborn militant, COYB not matter where we play!!

Jonathan Tasker
3   Posted 24/04/2008 at 08:24:12

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As an exclied Scouser I am following this debate with interest . i wanted to make a few points

I never believe a word that comes out of Kenwright?s mouth after the Fortress Goodison affair. The vote to move to Kirkby was "rigged"; Voters were not aware of the full facts; very stupid people were swayed by the comments of the players, for example, who all said it was a good move; as if the players were going to say anything different!

If I understand all of this correctly, the club still needs to get together £80m to move; is this going to happen ? I think not

Not sure what the solution is as I know that the other side in the City are now a far bigger brand than us; this was not the case thirty years ago when there was a 50/50 split in the city

Meanwhile, I am very worried about Sunday
Chris Briddon
4   Posted 24/04/2008 at 09:08:05

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Jonathan - you see that's what antagonises all Yes supporters. When No voters like you come on and cliam that ?very stupid people were swayed by the comments of the players, for example?

Just because they voted Yes doesn?t make them stupid, it just means they have a different opinion to you. I didn?t get to vote, but would have voted Yes if I had, because the move seems like the best available option given the need to progess and compete at the top end of the Premier League.

Everybody gets hung up on the phrase ?mid-level? but to me that relates to the capacity of the stadium not the quality of it (if you read the document it mentions other words as well that are much more positive that people seem to have edited out!)

I still believe it's the best option available and whilst it may not be free, it's as near as we are likely to get to it.
Rob Bentham
5   Posted 24/04/2008 at 09:08:20

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Alan
How much is this handout we’re getting? Out of interest.
Tim Keen
6   Posted 24/04/2008 at 09:20:40

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I think one area that needs clarification, and quickly, is this enabling money.
We have been sold it all along as "a handout" or in Robert Earl’s words "a non reinbursable cheque for £55m".
But is that the case? Rumours have surfaced that it is infact Everton who take the risk not Tesco. If all the units in the retail park sell out quickly then Everton will indeed receive £52m. If the units don’t sell out then the stadium will still cost £130m but who will be liable for the £52m shortfall?
Tony Kelly
7   Posted 24/04/2008 at 09:44:48

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I have been going to Goodison Park for 55 years. I come from a large family of season ticket holders. I have got a lot of close friends who are season ticket holders. Out of 40 people, 2 voted to move to Kirkby. Speaking to all of them only 4 have said they will follow EFC to Kirkby, this is a worrying statistic and if this trend continued across the board we will have problems filling a 30,000-seater stadium ? never mind a 50,000-seater. I would like to ask anyone in favour of this insane move, where are all these supporters coming from to fill a 50,000-seater stadium?
David Kiely
8   Posted 24/04/2008 at 09:57:47

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There?s no getting away from the locational aspect of this proposed move from Goodison. I believe too many anti-Kirkby stadium people are wringing their hands a little too much about ?Kirkby not being the issue?, and that ?other factors? such as stadium design, transportation headaches and cost are the substantive reasons. They are all weighty arguments against Kirkbydome, for sure. But we dont need to be repentant about the locational objections either....it was a big issue during the ballot period, and it is a big issue now. I?m glad TW?s Editor has highlighted this again.
Robert Carney
9   Posted 24/04/2008 at 09:58:43

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Ed, as you quote a leader from the eighties, remember the head of a high street jewellry store called Ratners? Sell them shit and charge high prices. Then tell the fools it is a good deal.

Now where do I read similar comments coming from? Oh, and where are Ratners now?
Robert Carney
10   Posted 24/04/2008 at 10:10:21

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Alan, another No slant!

I am sure the editorial team would love a new Yes slant from any source.
The problem is, whether from Everton or the remaining Yes voters nothing new has come forward.

We have been dripfead what the deal of the century really is. It is not the utopian deal for Everton we were led to expect.

We were told no plan B or C. We now know Sainsbury?s wanted to come on board in Walton Hall Park.
We heard Everton rubbish the Loop site, it has been proven that it can be done. The financial side was never explored.

It has also been proven Goodison Park can be developed piecemeal. At a similar cost to the Kirkby proposal.

The real problem seems to be that Tesco stitched up BK, either though the so called deal of exclusivity or other means we know not off.
As for no interest in investing in Everton, I do not believe it for one moment. Man City, Birmingham, Aston Villa but to name a few wo have attracted new money. Any interest in the stewardshp of this club as been thwarted by Tesco and Kenwright whilst this runs its course.
Steven Flynn
11   Posted 24/04/2008 at 10:41:40

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The hardcore Everton support don't want the heart and soul of our club ripped apart by moving to Kirkby; the ?we want better facilities?supporters are willing to move into Tesco?s car park (make no mistake because that?s were our new home will be )so they can watch in comfort. This move will spell the end of Everton FC as we know it. There will be other options available please let's not press this self-destruct button, the silence from our Board is deafening.
Steve Lyth
12   Posted 24/04/2008 at 11:43:49

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Rob for RATner substitute Wyness, the sooner we get vocal with our dissent over this issue the better.
I think the question of how many fans want to Kirkby will be sorted when the first anti song goes up.
Andy Willox
13   Posted 24/04/2008 at 13:41:49

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I said at the beginning of this whole sorry mess that the only people to benefit from the move would be Tesco. The recent purchase of Devsecs holdings put?s them in a very powerful position, they effectively own kirkby and could let it rot should they so wish, but more importantly, they can still develop now without EFC.

Tesco and KMBC have always had a plan B, we didn?t, as I?ve said before on these boards that is tantamount to dereliction of duty by fatpants Wyness towards the shareholders. Never mind waiting for the government to ?call in? this project, every Evertonian should call this sorry mess in.

We cannot fill Goodison each week so the entire mathematic model doesn?t add up for Kirkby. Look at the surrounding areas of Kirkby and to the east there are fields, not residential areas, which new fans would we attract there? Sheep? Cattle?

To quote John Lydon, ?ever get the feeling you?ve been had??. It stunk from the beginnig, it stunk in the middle... and it reeks to high heaven now.

Alan Willo
14   Posted 24/04/2008 at 13:06:42

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Rob B, EFC contribute £ 60 million to the project do you really think that is what it will cost? so handout is the cost of the land and the rest on the bulid money.
Rob C, Loop site could be done? come on lads please wake up! Loop was a joke from the start a patsy by LCC to aviod the fact that Walton Park was not mentioned. Sainsbury made no commitment sadly to WP they expressed an interest its completly different than investing cash. Sainsbury’s have a store less than a mile away from WP so that would increase the coast considerably as they would have to let it go when they have a long term lease. When you have a plan b or c it can only be backed with a finiacial package that will include a major sponsor or benefactor, WE HAVE NO MONEY TO BUILD OUR OWN OR RE-DEVELOP GP. Now that not a yes/no slant its basic fact
Alan Willo
15   Posted 24/04/2008 at 13:50:27

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Rob B, EFC contribute £60 million to the project do you really think that is what it will cost? so handout is the cost of the land and the rest on the build money.
Rob C, Loop site could be done? Come on lads please wake up! Loop was a joke from the start a patsy by LCC to avoid the fact that Walton Park was not mentioned. Sainsbury made no commitment sadly to WP they expressed an interest it?s completely different than investing cash. Sainsbury?s have a store less than a mile away from WP so that would increase the cost considerably as they would have to let it go when they have a long term lease. When you have a plan b or c it can only be backed with a financial package that will include a major sponsor or benefactor, WE HAVE NO MONEY TO BUILD OUR OWN OR RE-DEVELOP GP. Now that?s not a yes/no slant its basic fact and unless we all address that issue all this other crap is just hot air. As Tesco have paid for the land this week and the local MP has backed the project then I?m sorry but it?s going to be built. LCC could have put the Tesco project in WP but you all wasted your time slagging off Kirkby and EFC board instead of putting political pressure on LCC to make it happen (regardless of confidentially agreement). All Evertonian?s saying you will not travel to Kirkby too see the team we all love are just pathetic!! I voted yes, but would have accepted the result no matter what, it?s a shame you all don?t have the same understanding. Lastly, you all mention this will be the death of EFC, I think not because I like to think we are special fans that will accept it in time and keep going whether you voted Y or N that?s why we are better than s-ite across the park. COYB
Tony Williams
16   Posted 24/04/2008 at 13:49:32

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Just a thought to throw out to the ones saying that it will be the financial death of Everton and they will not be renewing their season tickets or won’t go to Kirkby to watch the Blues anymore.

Surely this represents becoming a part of a self-forfilling prophecy by taking your money away from Everton?

Jay Campbell
17   Posted 24/04/2008 at 14:00:58

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Tony Williams, answer: YES.

The answer is simple innit? If Evertonians believe and want Kenwright?s and Wyness?s vision for the club and it?s future off they can go to Kirkby. if you don?t, just don?t go anymore; vote with your feet and don?t give them one cent of your money. Me, I?m doing the latter and Everton fans seriously need to wake up to the fact that it?s not their club anymore. It's Kenwright?s and his cronies' ? and the only way to get it back and stop the whole Kirkby disaster is vote with your feet. It?s the only way these idiots see sense.

They?ll put a statue of Kenwright alongside "Shanks" outside Anfield. Who could blame them??
Andy Hegan
18   Posted 23/04/2008 at 23:15:17

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I'm sick of these Yes voters wingeing about being kept in the dark since their collaboration with Bill and Biffa. The question is as clear now as it was then, "Do you or do you not want to hand sole ownership of the city to the Redshites?". If you voted Yes then you are as guilty now as you were then.
Ed MacDonald
19   Posted 24/04/2008 at 11:05:50

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I have read all the info from the club regarding the planning application. It seems to me they only give one valid reason why Goodison can't be redeveloped - they say the footprint is too small. They could only build a 37,000 seater. The footprint can't be extended. Does anyone know if this is true?

Given that they admit redevelopment would cost a bit less than Kirkby it is clear we could afford it. It may take 10-15 years and there would be no naming rights etc. There would be less money for players. But it could be done if there was the will. But if we can't extend the footprint we may as well forget it and move on.

Jay Harris
20   Posted 24/04/2008 at 14:05:44

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Alan Willo
NOBODY is giving us a handout at Kirkby.

The land which is apparently reclaimed landfill and will cost millions to prepare for building will NOT be ours it will be leased so how the hell is anybody giving us 50 million.

LCC got so pissed off with being given the run around by BK (particularly after KD where they spent over 2 years working up what was the deal of the century only to be let down by none other than "The cheques in the bank" man) and were told to back off by BK/Wyness because of the exclusivity deal which must be the longest running exclusivity deal in history.

THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS!
Steve Lyth
21   Posted 24/04/2008 at 14:22:57

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Alan Willo "What a shame you dont have the same understanding" .,.. Get over yourself fella and face facts: we had a better understanding than you hence our vote and what has come to pass.

Andy Willox, all that Kirkby will attract is sheep mate.

Colin Grierson
22   Posted 24/04/2008 at 14:20:28

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Just a minor point in this issue fellas; Tesco are a massive business and are run with scant regard to the fortunes of smaller companies, ie, the suppliers of the produce and other products that fill their shops. These people do not gamble and this whole sorry debacle is as much a publicity stunt for them as anything else. They wont GIVE us anything. Like a few others, I too am not against progress but this is a massive gamble and in my opinion one that will end in tears! (Rest assured not Tesco?s.)
Andy Willox
23   Posted 24/04/2008 at 14:32:06

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So there?s no confusion, me and Andy Willo are genuinely seperate identities.
Now, Jay Harris, the value of the land intended for the stadium is currently put forward as nothing (not true) but that?s how it is presented, the value of the land with the stadium on it and part of a ?complex? or retail sites would then be valued at £50million, as Tesco are purchasing the entire project site and not charging EFC for the land to build on, that is where the £50million comes in. I believe that loans based on that as collateral were to be pursued but subsequently all loan possibilities are shut out because the cost to the club towards the stadium build takes it?s leanding up to the absolute hilt.

Propaganda and lies, cooking the books, call it what you will, but that?s how our club have sold us this pup.

Oh and I?m another one who wouldn?t go to Kirkby, I want to watch Everton FC ? not FC Kirkby Allstars.
Steve Lyth
24   Posted 24/04/2008 at 15:12:08

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Andy the latest from the Kopites is that we are all Chickens, KFC, Kirkby Football Club, maybe Bill and Lyness should "Gerra Bucket", it would certainly beat the pot they have to piss in.
Steven William
25   Posted 24/04/2008 at 15:16:19

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If we move to Kirkby will will loose thousands of loyal fans. Where this man Wyness gets his extra fanbase from baffles me, the man lives in a dreamworld. We will have a half-full stadium, the only extra fans will be more away fans depending on who we play.

Half-empty grounds means more debt, more debt means no transfer funds which means poor results on the pitch, it has a domino effect. The board are only interested in one thing and that's getting the stadium developed at any cost regardless then selling us for a huge profit of their own then crawl back to where they belong, leaving us stuck in a cowshed with the heart an soul taken away from us. We have to stop it now, or say goodbye to the Everton we know and love.

Dean Williamson
26   Posted 24/04/2008 at 15:55:32

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If we move, we lose the city and I will not follow Everton any longer.

Paul Gladwell
27   Posted 24/04/2008 at 16:44:47

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One thing no one can dispute, is that this Kirkby project is first and foremost all about Tescos and what they can get out of it, we are just like Debenhams in the Ggrovesnor project and to me that is so wrong. We should be in control, but sadly we won't own anything if we move there and what happens WHEN football hits a black period and we are still mediocre and have lost our heritage and a good few blues who just never felt the same when they went to Kirkby?

I have said it before, I will try and give it a go for my kids sake more than anything, but I am worried that it will be the end for me, how many more feel like me and these lads saying it will be over for them? and more importantly just where do you think the replacements will come from because the City will slowly turn into their City... they know it too.

Tony Kelly
28   Posted 24/04/2008 at 17:42:05

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You can say what you like about sons of Shankly... these guys have balls. Evertonians are like the Jews going to the gas chambers. Imagine if LFC.announced they were relocating to Kirkby. They would take to the streets in their thousands. Every everton fan who cares passionately for their club should be demonstrating vociferously against this insane move because, believe me, if this move goes ahead, our great club will gradually go into oblivion.
Alan willo
29   Posted 24/04/2008 at 18:03:55

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Ha, you lot Loyal Fans!! You can?t even travel the short distance to watch the team we all LOVE!! To me your a load of charlatans, you will all go to Kirkby because like me you love it, breath it and want to be part of it!! Accept it and move on, you don?t have to agree with it but that drug of Z cars and the buzz of seeing EFC win is why you follow the team not because you sit in a crap stand and walk through dog shite every home game. Moving to Kirkby may not be Kings Dock or any other great venue but it will be our new home, embrace it. Don?t worry about being called KFC, what we call the RS is far worse that that. COYB wherever we play!
Paul Gladwell
30   Posted 24/04/2008 at 18:20:26

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Could not agree more Tony, them bastards would've stopped this by now, we are just lazy supporters, although I don't think it has hit home to most what is happening and most of us have an attitude of it will go tits up; it always does... Things will get moving when it becomes too late.
Steve Stott
31   Posted 24/04/2008 at 18:37:09

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Wasn?t there a democratic vote which resulted in a Yes majority - or sorry that it was rigged even though it was overseen by the respected Electoral Reform Society?

The Loop is a masterstroke put forward at the last minute by a company that makes a £73M profit on a turnover of £1.7 M whilst Tesco make £2.7B profit - I know why I?d want to be involved with.

Sorry, Goodison can be redeveloped whilst we continue playing there - reduced income so how do we move forward - oh and there is the small matter of where is the finance to redevelopit come from.

I?m not going to watch Everton again as Kirkby isn?t in Liverpool - by the same token why are you watching Everton now when
a. It isn?t their original home
and
b. it wasn?t in Liverpool when it was originally built.

As I?ve said many times before instead of being negative about Kirkby move why don?t you try and get involved and engage with Everton, Kirkby Council & Tesco to make the move a success. Sorry can?t do that that would be behaving like a mature adult.
Gerard Madden
32   Posted 24/04/2008 at 19:09:22

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I?m delighted at current developments regarding the move to our new stadium.

Personally i?d follow us to Bolivia or the moon if I could, I will never desert the club, the fact we?re moving just 4 miles away to a strong scouse heartland to a 50,000 (extendable to 60,000) new stadium is the icing on the cake!

Tom Hughes
33   Posted 24/04/2008 at 18:44:33

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Alan,
It’s really not about whether or not the diehards will carry on going. We are talking 10-13,000 extra seats that need filling to make this thing viable, and with the logistics making this location much less accessible than the current one how can we expect them additional seats to be filled? The hardcore support is brilliant, and the envy of many clubs I’m sure, but less than one in ten blues goes regularly to the away games, and this will not fill the bottom tier of any of the stands in Kirkby. Everything is convenience-led these days, and Kirkby is certainly less convenient than Walton for the vast majority of match-going blues. At present it doesn’t even look likely that this scheme will attract all of the current regulars, nevermind 15-20,000 extras that are required to make this a profitable venture given the size of the impending debt. There is no massive waiting list to ofset this. I’ve a feeling that the post-match cattle-herding onto the mythical park and ride non-existent buses (According to Merseytravel), and the crush-loaded (EFC’s transport consultants)bombay express from Kirkby station will deter even more. 4-5 miles and at least one extra bus/train change for all south Liverpool and Wirral-based fans (Over 1/3rd of our season ticket holders are Wirral based) could add an hour each way for over half our Merseyside-based fans. The relatively few traffic lanes feeding the Kirkby area from the main population compared to Walton (and certainly the Loop) will further compound the deterent effect for even the motorists at this car-dependant site. Bottom line is of course, none of this is what was promised!
Jim Lloyd
34   Posted 24/04/2008 at 19:42:44

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It seems to me that there are some Yes voters who will not wait to see if there is any altrnative to moving to Kirkby. The alternatives that have been suggessted are belittled without any serious consideration to whether they would be practical or achievable.

Fair enough; those who want to go to Kirkby are entitled to make their choice. Although I do not think that all of the 15,000 who voted to move OUR club out of OUR city, would do so now, knowing that alternatives do exist.

I don?t feel that Kenwright and Wyness and Leahy have been totally open with us. We were told that there was no plan B. IT looks like there could well be a Plan B, Plan C and Plan D. They are GP, WHP or the Loop. The club has, in MHO, actively rejected loking at any of these alternatives.

I strongly believe that if the club moves to Kirkby, it wil be the beginning of the end of us having any identity with the City of Liverpool. I hope no-one will get on here and tell us that Kirkby is in Liverpool... it Isn?t. The Reds know this and I guess they can?t wait for us to leave. I hope no-one will get on and say it?s only 4 miles down the road. It might as well be in Skelmersdale (better traffic links) or any other little Lancashire town, Nice... but not Liverpool.

I certainly will not be going to Kirkby on the back of a dodgy vote. I would hope that enough of us could make this clear to the club. Come out and and tell us in an honest and open debate, why none of the alternatives mentioned are deliverable. Until they do this I?m doing the only thing I can to try and get them to at least look at the alternatives. Anyone else?

Paul Gladwell
35   Posted 24/04/2008 at 20:29:15

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Gerard would you move to Birkenhead? because its on the banks of the royal blue Mersey we like to sing about plus our most famous legend is from the town... I await your answer.
Gerard Madden
36   Posted 24/04/2008 at 21:17:27

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Hold on a sec Paul.... Just checking if Lyndon/Michael are allowing evil me to post under my name... Just a sec.... YESSSS!!

Now, no I wouldn't accept Birkenhead as to me it doesnt ?feel? as though it's in the city like Bootle, Kirkby and Huyton are - places that are joined onto the city without a noticeable join and are jam packed full of scousers. Birkenhead would be as unacceptable to me as would Widnes, Cronton and Maghull would be as well.

Gerard Madden
37   Posted 24/04/2008 at 21:27:26

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I should have added that I would still wish to go and watch us play at Birkenhead, Cronton, the moon etc but they aint the same as Liverpool, Bootle, Kirkby or Huyton.
Ian Naylor
38   Posted 24/04/2008 at 21:26:36

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Small point but Steve Lyth says "we had a better understanding than you hence our vote and what has come to pass." He had better have a small word with Jay as the both are no voters, and in Steve’s eyes the ones who understand "facts".
One of Jay’s point’s is the land in Kirkby will be leased and not owned by us.
In English and Welsh law no-one owns land other than the Crown, hence the use of the terms Freehold and Leasehold. One of the consequences of this law is HM goverment can compulsory purchase your house throw you out and demolish it and you have no right of appeal.
Longterm leaseholds with property have the same value as freeholds, just try the housing market if you wish to test the point. In the case of a major building such as this the legal term used to describe the land is of no importance.
Just thought that as guys who are keen on facts this is one you should be aware of.
Some times in the heat of an argument we tend to give our "views" as facts, and this is happening a lot in this stadium debate on both sides.
Art Greeth
39   Posted 24/04/2008 at 22:20:53

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What’s in a word, eh?

On the home page of TW we are told: "MP FRETS over call-in". Now my understanding of the word "fret" is that one worries unnecessarily about something. Yet you follow the link, read the report (and others related to the same story, if you’ve the mind...) and I don’t see the MP George Howarth fretting at all. On the contrary, he appears to very decisively have come out in favour of the Tesco "Destination Kirkby" project by saying he will NOT be calling it in as was earlier threatened.

The KEIOC site surpass even TW’s slanted link in flagging up this story with the headline: "Local MP Prostitutes Himself to Big Business". Very tasteful...

BTW, any one else ever done a head count over at KEIOC? What is commonly accepted as THE flagship for the ’no’ camp has a TOTAL of 498 members signed up to their forum. The record number of members online at any one time was... 49... on Wednesday 27 June last year.

Hardly sounds like a groundswell of changing opinion to me, nor the overwhelming silent majority "clearly" opposed to a move to Kirkby we are constantly informed of by the more vocal in the no camp...
Neil Pearse
40   Posted 24/04/2008 at 21:47:24

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Thanks Ed for your kind and intelligent post. Since mine on this subject are usually on the more financial aspects of the move (and surely are well known to all regular Toffeewebbers by now), I would like just to comment for a change on the very important more emotional aspects of all this.

First of all I should state that, although my father was born within a few streets of Goodison, I was born in Maghull and left when I was three. So I am hardly a through and through scouser (although I am a through and through Evertonian and always will be). I have no experience now of what it is like to live in the city.

I say all this because it seems to me that, leaving aside as I say the differences in view on all the business aspects of the move, a critical ’pain point’ here is the feelings of those in the city around ’the abandonment of the city’ to Liverpool FC. My sense is that this is at the core of much of the passionate opposition to the move.

Perhaps not being a scouser or city resident, I don’t feel this sense of abandonment at all intensely. But I can certainly try to understand how those of you who are resident, do feel this so painfully.

Net net, I remain a reluctant but clear supporter of the Kirkby move for all the reasons I have previously written. IMHO we desperately need to generate new revenues, for that we need to move, we are pretty poor, Kirkby is a pretty good financial deal, and to be honest we can’t afford anything else (certainly not the other more expensive options) unless we get a rich new owner, and there has been no sight of one of them (and if there seriously had been they would have made themselves known), and that having a new stadium in the bag is precisely what is most likely to bring out a new owner...etc. etc.

Oh, and so as I am not seen as some Kenwright / Wyness creep, let me be clear in stating once more that I think the PR management around Kirkby has been utterly inept and excruciatingly embarrassing. I am actually mad that they have made such a bollocks of what is basically a reasonable case, thereby dividing the fanbase more than was at all necessary.

But back to the important emotional issues. What can I say about the emotional pain of abandoning the city to our rivals?

Saying that Kirkby certainly seems like ’scouseland’ to me (it does) is hardly very helpful. It doesn’t to you.

Perhaps that, yes, Liverpool fans will taunt you about ’leaving the city’, but that, especially if we are successful on the pitch, this will wither and die. (Imagine Jamie Vaughan scoring a hat trick against them in our new stadium? That will shut them up for a while...)

Maybe more bleakly, the reality now is that we ARE living in Liverpool FC’s shadow. Indeed, if we stay in Goodison we may soon literally be doing so as their Stanley Park monstrosity towers over us.

Perhaps emotionally for me at least, there is some attraction to actually escaping from this shadow and not living under it any longer. Making a new start in a new (nearby) location has some positive feeling for me.

I wish we were moving to a more prestigious stadium in a more exciting location. I am not a fool, so I do not think that Kirkby is the new Jerusalem. But perhaps I do have some feeling that we will gain something from this new start. And personally I have no doubt whatsoever that the club is far too strong to succumb to the dire predictions of many of the posters here.

But then I have not lived in the city for over forty years. So I have to accept that many of you feel very differently, and respect you for your obviously genuine feelings.

Most of all I am extremely saddened by the split in the fanbase that this is causing. I think the root cause of this is our relative poverty - we are like a married couple in reduced circumstances fighting amongst ourselves because we don’t have enough money to live the life we expected anymore. I wish we could stop, but then passions are now inflamed on all sides. And these are issues of deep importance to all of us.

It would be an act of leadership for Kenwright and Wyness to come forward and explain more fully and honestly why they think Kirkby is a good move for us now. Including being honest about the dangers of not securing additional revenues in the near future, and what we can now actually afford as a club. It is a dereliction of duty not to do so as the fanbase splits further.

Perhaps I should finish by saying to Michael and Lyndon that they perform a great service by providing in Toffeeweb a place in which we can all debate these matters and let off some steam (without coming to more than verbal blows). And perhaps through these debates can realise that, however we see the Kirkby issue, we really are only all so passionate about it because we all feel so deeply about the club we support together.
Jim Lloyd
41   Posted 24/04/2008 at 23:39:14

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We can debate the move as much as we like amongst ourselves and it will not matter a tinkers toss. The fact is we have been given a vote when all the information was kept from us. Now that it is becoming more and more apparent that alternatives did, and still do exist, more and more Evertonians are wondering why Mr Kenwright or anyone else from EFC, will not come out and say why these alternatives will not be deliverable. For those who are happy to go Kirkby, this will not matter. To the thousands who voted No, it does matter. Once we leave this City (and Gerrard Madden Kirkby is not in Liverpool) it is irrevokable. It will not be just a matter of the other half calling us silly names for a while, we will have left this city to them. I for one could not abide that; not until we have been told in detail, why we cannot stay in our city.
Alan Willo
42   Posted 25/04/2008 at 07:45:07

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We as fans have options and we can walk away with our head in the sand and let RS pick on the Kirkby move, some fans dont want and basically be a loser. I think as soon as the bulid starts and we cant go back all fans should unite and back Kirkby 100% and support the team and fill the stadium up to the rafters!!

By time the new staduim is complete I will be buying a exta season ticket for my son and my brother will too so thats 3 extra already. If we embrace it and fill it plus the team doing well then RS can be told to FO back to Ireland and Norway! Its only a problem in your heads!! Fight against it as much as you like but once the builders start, get behind and show then across the park that we love EFC no matter where we play!! COYB

Steve Lyth
43   Posted 25/04/2008 at 08:46:25

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Ian Naylor, I was referring all Yes voters to the fact that Kirkby whatever format it might be delivered in, will be a long way from what was originally promised by Bill and the self interested Keith Wyness.
My point being, that most No voters knew this would transpire given the caliber of the men in charge .
Jay Campbell
44   Posted 25/04/2008 at 09:00:51

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Collectively as a fanbase we should be ashamed of ourselves.

The RS march the streets and demand everyone’s head if the fat waiter doesn’t get a tenner!!!!

Speaks volumes of Evertonians nowadays this ground move.
Colin Grierson
45   Posted 25/04/2008 at 08:49:12

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Global Warming, Exxon Valdez, Rabbits in Australia, Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Relocation to Kirkby.

All disasters! All man-made! Two of them have something in common! They can still be prevented, but, as Al Gore put it, the truth is inconvenient.

Fight the good fight.
Steve Lyth
46   Posted 25/04/2008 at 10:40:36

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Jay, we either start raising our voices at the game with a very simple message or we dont. Thats how protests start, "We shall not be moved", "Stick Kirkby up your Arse" etc, we will only see who is in the majority when such things come to pass.
Sunday after the game is good time to start
JL Slap
47   Posted 25/04/2008 at 11:09:38

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Whatever your opinions are on this ground move, I will hold mine back for now, what this has done to one of the most unified & loyal fanbases in football is enough to make you chuck it all in. We won't though ? we shouldn't either.
BK has done a lot of good for this club & I believe his heart is in the right place but the mistakes he has made have been massive. From the Kings Dock to the Fortress Sports Fund to Rooney's departure and the biggest one of the lot: Mr Keith Wyness.

We have Evertonians tearing each other apart on all sorts of forums, sites & in boozers all over the world because of facts from both sides of the argument yet a 1-hour look into this mans ?chequered? past in the business world (especially his time with Aberdeen) would tell you that the man is a bluffer!! He has managed to get his fat arse into numerous positions of power & influence through nothing but bluffing, he also follows the same business plan EVERYWHERE!!!
Strip down assets to make the balance sheet look better before proposing relocation to attract new owners/finance etc before fucking off with (probably) a hefty fat cheque and a glowing reference from short sighted employers!!! Get this fat Rasputin-esqe twat out of our club........
JL Slap
48   Posted 25/04/2008 at 11:23:16

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I would also urge people debating this subject to do a bit of thier own research into this fact as a lot already have.
If you are willing to tear into a fellow blue over a difference of opinion as we seem quick to then at least have the decency to have looked at the facts & figures that are available (usually on web) to the public domain & not read the propaganda from the club themselves. the local rags or your mate who knows someone.
There are too many people on here getting too vociferous & sometimes insulting without looking at all the reports and info that is out there, then making usually untrue claims.

I?m game to start the "Wyness Out" chants on Sunday, d?you reckon anyone will get behind me??
Robbie Muldoon
49   Posted 25/04/2008 at 12:21:08

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Everton will not be the same club if it moves to Kirkby. In my opinon it would be a scandal.
Chris Slotham
50   Posted 25/04/2008 at 12:33:47

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Assuming Everton continue doing decent in the league (e.g Uefa Cup place) and Kirkby goes ahead, will Everton with new stadium be worth more (for a short period of time) than Everton with GP? Nice profits all around for directors who then sell their shares?

I?m sure I never used to be so cynical...
Ed Fitzgerald
51   Posted 25/04/2008 at 11:36:10

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As someone who has looked back at the past career of the venerable Mr Wyness I can only agree with you JL. My problem is that someone made the decision to appoint him? Presumably that ultimate decision lay with BK who also should have done his homework properly. It seems at times that Kenwright?s Evertonian credentials absolve him from any responsibility with certain Blues.

Alan Willo - I am sorry to be contentious but I don?t think Everton fans are any more ?special? than any other team?s fans. Many of my friends support other teams and are just as passionate and as fervent as the most rabid of Evertonians. In fact the most committed follows Halifax Town. What all of them express is shock at the lack of protest (vocal or otherwise) at our proposed move out of our HOME city (and this includes Liverpool fans). We can mock their protests supporting Rafa etc but at least they are making their voices heard and it would be fair to say are exerting some influence.

The move out of our city appears to be an unimportant factor to you, as you no see no problem with Kirkby, that?s fine... but your posts are becoming increasingly desperate attacking and demeaning Evertonians who hold a view that is diametrically opposed to yours. Sadly we will not all go to Kirkby as many of the posts on this thread make clear with lucid and impassioned reason.

You say the problem is in our ?heads? ? that is correct because the longer I think about the long-term future of the club at Kirkby, the more I recognise rationally that it spells decline and Everton becoming marginalised. As Kirsty and Phil would say it?s all about location, location, location

Option 1. Stay in a City of International known for Arts, Media, Culture and business or?
Option 2. Move to an overspill area in Retail Park?
Eh?????? yes I am still struggling with your apparent enthusiasm for Kirkby?

But it?s not just my head that tells me it is wrong, it is my heart also because from the first moment I heard the idea it made me feel sick (in fact I thought it was a joke). Some posts appear to denigrate this type of emotional response as sentimental and yet this is the basis of how people become and remain supporters of football clubs.

The club's handling of the whole affair has been pitiful from the start and as the truth unravels the anger and disillusionment is growing. Imploring all Evertonians to be ?happy campers? and put the whole thing behind us is a little trite and that?s putting it mildly.

Dave Wilson
52   Posted 25/04/2008 at 12:42:37

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Alan Willo

I don't think you?ll ever get it, mate; to many of us Everton will be dead if BK starts a new club in Kirkby, just as surely as Wimbledon FC is dead to the people of Wimbledon, at least Winkleman had the balls to change their name to Milton Keynes - not to mention the good sense not to try to make RS and Manure fans change allegience - think BK will do the same?

I?m another who wont step foot in the place, trust me the number of "new fans" will be outnumbered a thousandfold by the number of loyal Evertonians who would feel utterly betrayed.

Vote yes by all means, but dont delude yourself, the thousands who say they wont go, will NEVER have a change of heart.

JL Slap
53   Posted 25/04/2008 at 13:24:30

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I agree, I agree & I agree.

Is it time to start organising this sort protest? Is it time that match going no voters or Yes voters who have become disillusioned with this farce to show our discontent? I have never had to or wanted to do this sort of thing before but maybe now is the time.... help & ideas on how to do this would be appreciated. Maybe for the last game at Newcastle, let Bill & that fat twat know exactly what we feel about this move.
Tony Williams
54   Posted 25/04/2008 at 13:53:52

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Point of order please.

A few posters have suggested that the move will make "thousands of loyal fans" will be lost. How exactly can you call the fans that would turn their backs of Everton loyal? Fuck Wyness and BK and the board, they would be turning their backs on Everton FC, the club they love.

What about the fans who have already said that they will be following Everton if they end up in Kirkby? Are they "more loyal"?...... I have a feeling they will be called sheep by some.
Steve Ryan
55   Posted 25/04/2008 at 14:19:30

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Neil Pearce, I have read every one of your very lengthy and repetitive posts in which you have explained to fellow blues why the move will benefit the club. I am puzzled therefore why you have made the following comment in your latest piece some 6 months after the vote: "It would be an act of leadership for Kenwright and Wyness to come forward and explain why they think Kirkby is a good move for us now"... and you wonder why we voted No!!!

Forgive me Neil, but I find your ?everything to all men? posts a little patronising and while you may think you have a ?connection? with the No voters in understanding their reasons for opposing Kirkby, the fact that you assume they relate mainly to the emotional ties with the city, and to the Liverpool boundary issue, would indicate that you still haven?t ?got it?.

Notwithstanding the countless lies and misinformation associated with the Kirkby project, the main reason why most of us No voters opposed the scheme was that in the long run, the amount of revenue which the club will accrue located in a small town on the outskirts of Liverpool will be a drop in the ocean compared to the funds they could generate if they had decided to locate in the heart of a thriving city.

There is no need to respond with your usual Loop related comments because your views on that subject correspond to those of Wyness..... enough said!!!

Joe Ludden
56   Posted 25/04/2008 at 16:56:35

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To Alan Wilo et al:

I am not a scouser, not born there, got no affiliation with the place other than I was born with Everton in my DNA from my scouse Dad and his family. It?s not about postcodes, or place names or if we are in the city or not. I live breathe dream Everton every single day, not a day goes by without me having some EFC tag on my person, whether it be clothing, keyring or whatever.

For me, my father and all like us, this is about Everton, and not Billy K and Bully Wyness. We are being sold to a ransom and you dont see it. Whats more, its not even a kings ransom. The vote was "managed". Kirkby is not free. Just read the DTZ report. Kirkby does not equal £10m a year increase in profits. Kirkby = at the very least £80m of debt + interest + crappy plastic soulless stadium.

Do you honestly believe what you are saying, or are you playing Devil?s Advocate just to get a reaction? To everyone and anyone thinking we need to move from Goodison ? why? I know we live in a ?throwaway? society, but does that really extend to football stadia, history, culture and tradition? Can we not just install new toilets and replace the roofs? Oh we can?? Hhmm.

I spend over £1000 a year on Everton. It?s not as much as many on this website, but it?s a lot. We move to Kirkby, as much as it pains, I become a rugby fan and will spend my pounds elsewhere. Not because I don?t love Everton anymore, but because it?s not Everton anymore.

We lose loved ones but life goes on. I?m not contributing to Bully and BK?s payoff. I can?t see the move ever going through now, but if it does, Al and others, enjoy. I don?t know anyone else that will ? generations of Blue. Roll over MK Dons, coming soon live from the Mcdonalds arena come?s the Kirkby Warriors?

Alan Willo
57   Posted 25/04/2008 at 17:43:16

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Dave Wilson, do me a favour: stop going now, we don?t need fans that walk with a little bit of change!! Not got your own way so withdraw your labour. Were you a docker or miner in your past life because that sort of attitude bankrupted what was once a great City; only recently it?s starting to fight back.

Comparing us to MK Dons is nothing short than a load of crap!!! I don?t mind us all not agreeing, that?s only normal, but to walk away from a Club we all have supported because we move down the road (only 3.6 miles) is pathetic to say the least. If you feel that way, stop going NOW, why wait... or are you all just talk????

I understand your arguments totally but don?t understand your actions, it will be your loss not ours and you will regret every game you don?t go.

Neil Pearse
58   Posted 25/04/2008 at 18:37:28

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Steve, I find your post needlessly insulting, but there we have it. I did not claim at all that I had a connection with No voters, but I was making an effort to understand - something that clearly you are not trying to do with Yes voters.

The point I am making about Wyness and Kenwright is simply that there is a good case for Kirkby in the circumstances, and I wish they would make it. Is that too difficult for you to understand? Is it a reason to vote against something that you judge in the best interests of the club that there has not been a good public case made for it?

The reasons I have to be repetitive about the likes of the Loop are that fools like you keep mentioning them as if they are real options which we could afford. It gets boring for me too, I can assure you, and I wish people like you would stop being so repetitively foolish.

The reasons I don?t "get" your so-called reasons for being a No voter is that they don?t make any sense. We cannot locate to the middle of the thriving city BECAUSE WE CANNOT AFFORD TO DO SO. If you still don?t get that after all this time then it truly is hopeless bothering to exchange views with you.
Jimmy Fearns
59   Posted 25/04/2008 at 18:39:00

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Alan Willo, you my friend have a very unhealthy obsession with dog shit. I am sure there are other sites you could visit that cater for this type of thing. Weirdo.
Dave Wilson
60   Posted 25/04/2008 at 19:38:12

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Alan Willo

Why would I contemplate doing you a favor? Sorry, me old china plate, but I?m not going anywhere. I have seen about a thousand Everton games over 40 years, thats Everton FC, The Everton FC that represents the community I grew up in ? not some tatty little imposter you want to get behind. if you want to go to Kirkby so badly, go ahead, but trust me ? EFC WILL NEVER GO THERE!

Wimbledon moved to M/Keynes to capture a whole knew catchment area, that's exactly what you and BK are advocating EFC does, so even you must realise the comparison is a valid one.

If BK actually gets to Kirkby and tarnishes our great name by calling his new imposters "Everton", you will look around the thousands and thousands of empty seats and realise what the Yes vote did. Within a year, you?ll probably jack it in yourself.

Not sure why I?m debating anything with a guy who holds the miners responsible for once bankrupting a great city . . . . I wonder which city you're talking about ?

Dave Wilson
61   Posted 25/04/2008 at 20:09:50

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Tony Williams

"Loyal Evertonians will never turn their back on the club," I think you?ll find a lot of us think its the other way round
The loyalty of the people who say they will go to Kirkby isn't in Question
Kevin Mitchell
62   Posted 25/04/2008 at 20:20:30

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Neil Pearse, in your last paragraph above, you say we don?t have the money to relocate in the thriving city. This type of comment is common to all Yes voters. You say this because BK & KW told you so.
It?s been well established that Bestway had an alternative with the loop, Sainsburys had one with Walton Hall Park and Liverpool CC are willing to sit down and help extend GP?s footprint. On top of all this, we've had people like Tom Hughes and Trevor Skempton proving Goodison can be redeveloped over a period of time without loosing the attendences that we have now.

Neil, the point I'm trying to make is that none of these other options have ever been on the agenda, so how do we know we can't afford it.

Listening to Yes voters is no different than listening to KW. Why do you believe everything that comes out of EFC is the truth?

Tony Ainscough
63   Posted 25/04/2008 at 22:20:39

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Dave Wilson, if there are thousands of Evertonians who think like you, why aren't they making their feelings known at the matches? Surely there would be demonstrations and at least the odd chant but, apart fom a pathetic banner on the back of an aeroplane, I havent seen fuck all.
Gerard Madden
64   Posted 25/04/2008 at 23:50:10

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Excellent point Tony! And a point i’ve been making for months without an adequate reply from any of them. The thing is the threshold has been set so low for attendence figures at a protest - the legendary couple of dozen who turned up at the KEIOC ’protest’ called after the Utd match last September, that if a subsequent protest was ever dared called by them and say 50 or 60 or even 300/400 turned up it would be hailed by KEIOC as evidence of a ’tide was turning’ when even multiply them figures by 3/4/5 and they would still be a drop in the water of the fanbase....What they need is thousands, thousands protesting regularly and it hasnt happened - and the matches are running out too before the long, hot (hopefully!) summer....
Steve Ryan
65   Posted 25/04/2008 at 23:44:13

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So Neil Pearce, you say that we cannot afford to develop the Loop site or Goodison. CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY? bearing in mind that you are not an Architect, Developer or financial expert and that the Everton Board have never bothered to fully explore these options. Your argument has always been flawed in my opinion because if you were honest with yourself, you dont really know the answer to this question do you? For someone who’s argument is soley based on the financial issue, I am amazed that you could be so naive as to think that the Kirkby site will be less costly and will generate more income to the club than a city centre development in tandum with another enabler or the redevelopment of Goodison. By the way, I am not a fool.....showed your true colours there didn’t you mate !!!
Dave Wilson
66   Posted 26/04/2008 at 06:13:15

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Tony Ainscough
I personally wouldnt have the time, the knowledge or the finance to start a protest, I suspect that would be the case with all No voters. I doubt if collectively we could muster the financial clout the club displayed in it?s "Vote Yes to Kirkby" campaign, the brochure alone must have cost tens of thousands - and look what a pack of lies that turned out to be

Remember this though, mate; despite the fortune spent by the club to convince us all this was the "deal of the century" and that there really wasn't any other option, only 15,000 voted for it, even the most ardent Yes voter now knows a club playing in Kirkby would play in front of thousands and thousands and thousands of empty seats.
When you're at Goodison tomorrow, look around at the empty seats ? despite the importance of the game ? you?ll then maybe realise the protest has already started: people are demonstrating NOW

Paul Gladwell
67   Posted 26/04/2008 at 07:06:54

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Gerard, people feel Kirkby is not in the city too, so try to understand that, like I understand what you say about Birkenhead. It lies on the banks of the Mersey, the city centre is all of 10 minutes away, and half the town sees Goodison when standing on their doorstep. But it is not Liverpool and a lot of people feel the same way about Kirkby, no matter what you may say, just try respecting their views instead of sarcastically belittling them.
Neil Pearse
68   Posted 26/04/2008 at 09:42:22

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Kevin and Steve. Kevin - where do I say that I only believe that we cannot afford a new stadium in the city because BK and KW told me so? Find one place in all the posts that I have ever written where I have said this.

This is a constant No tactic, to say that Yes voters have no minds of their own and are simply sheep. Frankly, it makes me sick and I am completely fed up of it. Of course it means that you can abuse Yes voters rather than arguing with them, so I can see why you do it. But it is part of what is causing the deep split in the fanbase over this issue - the complete lack of respect shown to Yes voters by the No voters. Does it ever occur to either of you that I actually care about our football club and that I sincerely think, after reading everything I can on the subject and reading all the arguments and thinking a lot myself, that Kirkby really is the best option that we have available to us? I really do. And not because BK or KW told me so!

Steve, I regretted calling you a fool, but you can understand that being constantly abused by No voters as a simpleton sheep, even when I am trying to understand their views, occasionally gets the better of me.

On your point about what we can afford. Let’s put it this way. Many of your fellow No voters believe that it is extremely dangerous for us to borrow an additional £50M or probably less to move to Kirkby. That is why they favour the incremental rebuilding of Goodison. I agree with them that we are basically a poor club that is not able to afford very much. There is heaps of evidence for this, most of it highlighted by your No voting friends.

So, here is the question for you. Do you really think that we could build any stadium in the city of Liverpool anywhere that would cost us less than the stadium in Kirkby? That Bestway for example (a small cash and carry) could provide us with a better deal than Tesco? LCC than Knowsley? I don’t. In the circumstances all the evidence, as well as plain common sense, says that any new stadium in Liverpool would require us to borrow much more than we can afford. You might have noticed that our friends across the park are going to borrow more in the order of £200M to build their stadium in the city.

Finally, on BK and KW, why on earth would they want to build a ’medium class’ stadium in Kirkby if they could afford to build a ’world class’ one in the centre of the city? Because we can’t afford to. The truth hurts me too Steve. But it’s still the truth.
Neil Pearse
69   Posted 26/04/2008 at 10:13:03

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Final point Steve, to avoid confusion, on the redevelopment of Goodison. As I have said numerous times on recent posts, of course I believe that we can afford the redevelopment of Goodison. I also believe that it is extremely likely that this would be less financially onerous than going to Kirkby.

What I don?t believe, for reasons I have gone through many times, is that the redevelopment of Goodison will generate sufficient additional revenues to support the club going forward. Of course this is because I believe that the stadium will be at least as full as Goodison provided the team does not crater on the pitch. I also believe that having an affordable new stadium wrapped up is more likely to attract the major new owner that we need. And, on the emotional level, I don?t much like the idea of playing in an old redeveloped stadium literally in the shadow of our friends new Terminal 5 Monstrosity. But I can agree that playing next to a Tesco's is hardly great either. But in the real world these are the choices we have.

I have also said that, deciding purely financially between redeveloping Goodison and moving to Kirkby, is a pretty tough call based on a lot of unknowable uncertainties. I completely respect the view that we should stay and redevelop Goodison. On the other hand, the view that there is some wonderful new stadium which we can afford awaiting us somewhere in Liverpool is, in my opinion, given our financial circumstances, a fantasy and a cop out.
Colin Grierson
70   Posted 26/04/2008 at 12:54:59

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So the lack of an organised protest means that everyone?s happy about ?The Move?! What a load of nonsense.

Have you people even bothered to follow the facts regarding this issue? The original pre-vote leaflet was like a Maggie Thatcher manifesto; full of empty promises, lies and half-truths!

Does this not bother you yes-voters at all. I can accept that some people are not arsed about Kirkby not being in Liverpool but what I can't accept is that you are seemingly content to swallow a pack of lies.

I suspect that a fair few of the fanbase are silent becuase they dont know what to do. They see it as an inevitability. The facts are irrefutable. They lied to us all.

I can?t go the match cos I live in Bangkok, but I won't be here forever. I support the blues as vociferously as I ever have and always will but I WON'T be going to Kirkby cos I?ll be busy mourning the demise of the club I love. If this happens then Kenwright will prove to have been a worse guardian than the unmetionable ?Park Hampers? thief was.

Pat Domingo
71   Posted 26/04/2008 at 13:01:52

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Neil, I enjoy your posts, you are one of the few people who actually talk some sense on here. But please stop thinking/saying the fan base is split. It is not. A fair vote was held and the ’Yes’ vote won.
As Art Greeth et al has pointed out, and the evidence from the usual suspects posting on toffee/keioc.web clearly shows, the no voters are a tiny clique, shouting, usually with much abuse, very loudly. For a small number of zealots they are pretty good at PR, by getting so many people, yourself included, into thinking the fan base is split. Even amongst the no voters I know, exactly zero is saying they will not go to Kirkby.
Finally, trying to explain to these people, logically and reasonably the fors and againsts the move is pointless. I’ve got doubts about the move, none of us know how it will pan out in the long run.
Some of the arguements against are valid ones, but you just can’t reason with these people.
Some passionately believe it is wrong, fair enough. Some are just plain thick.
In their world logic and reason goes out the window, they are like some wacko religious sect!
Many have convinced themselves it is all a big con and the board is bent, and if you point out the facts, as far as we know them, all you get is bullying abuse.
Tom Hughes
72   Posted 26/04/2008 at 13:44:57

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Pat,
How can you call people "plain thick" for pointing out their reasons for voting NO that have since been partly or even fully vindicated? Tell me ONE thing preached to us as gospel by KW/Tesco before and during the vote that is still valid!? How many lies constitute real "bullying abuse"? Then you can explain the concept of "fair vote" in light of this to those of us of apparently "wacko" persuasion!
Gerard Madden
73   Posted 26/04/2008 at 15:47:08

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Lets not beat about the bush - THERE IS a split in the fanbase, there?s the split in webland where you find 65-35/75-25 or even 85-15 against our move on small online polls voted on in the hundreds etc etc then there?s the split in the real world away from the small amounts who view web forums, this split is 65-35/75-25 or even 85-15 in favour/acceptance of the move. I would say its closer or even higher than 85-15 using evidence like the lack of protests and the thousands of honourable ?no? voters who accepted the result of the democratic ballot that was dealt with by the highly reputable Electoral Reform Society. And Tom - ?no? voters havent been ?vindicated? except in your mind, the deal remains a super deal where the club only has to find £78m for a new 50,000 capacity stadium - naming rights, sale of Goodison and Bellefield should deal with at least half of that so still a super deal in my opinion.
Jay Harris
74   Posted 26/04/2008 at 15:39:16

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Ed McDonald
GP footprint as it stands is as big as St James Park (60,000 seater). If extended to include the school the footprint goes to over 600 000 sf (bigger than the Emirates) so the person who claims GP can only accommodate 37,000 in future is talking absolute bollocks. But there again, we already know that.
Tom Hughes
75   Posted 26/04/2008 at 17:51:36

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Gerard,

It was stated that this stadium would cost us "practically nothing". Several Yes voters were still stating 'til very recently that this stadium will cost us nothing..... People repeated ad infinitum: Tesco had it all sorted because their turnover is gazillions and their boss is a good blue etc, etc.

None of this has come to pass. It will cost us a minimum of £78m, this is not 'practically nothing'. GP is already remortgaged to or beyond its current value, and naming rights of even the Emirates would not cover anything like half that cost. By the way, going by previously revealed estimates (£0 - 10m) expect that £78m to be on the optomistic side.

We were also told that there were no options since we cannot afford anything else..... can you tell us what £78m could achieve at GP, or even just £50m, £30m.....? If not, why not? You?re the one professing the fully informed stance that supported your vote all those months ago. If you can?t tell me now, then sure as hell you couldn?t then.

Bestway also stated that they expected EFC?s contribution to the Loop to be of the order of £60m, therefore rendering that also a viable option. Then of course we had the WHP revelation, revealed many months after KW stated that there were no other plans (no wonder Leahy insisted on exclusivity), and this was intentionally kept from us.

We were also told that this would be the most connected/accessible stadium in the Northwest when considering GP doesn?t require a park-and-ride scheme bigger than anything else in the country, this stadium will be many times less accessible than our current home, with pitiful public transport provision too. (Even with a tram, which is also speculative in the extreme, and hardly a basis to pronounce Merseytravel?s support, since their reaction has been quite the opposite).

Therefore, by definition..... the doubter?s instincts and questions were by definition vindicated. None of these issues, the foundation criteria of the Yes vote have been achieved.

As far as your 85/15 percentage support statement...... I challenge you to find any poll or forum where anything like that was achieved...... in fact I challenge you to find any poll other than the vote that was in support of Kirkby at all. Meanwhile, there were several internet forum based ones that were strongly against..... some from very substantial samples too.

Colin Wordsworth
76   Posted 26/04/2008 at 20:46:30

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So Everton stay at Goodison Park and can only afford to redevelop say the Park End, increasing capacity there and the corporate. The dark side then build their monster on the park... all singing all dancing..... and casting a shadow over ye olde Goodison Park... and it will!

WHO WILL BE THE POOR RELATION THEN!

At least our own brand new stadium in Kirkby will give us a chance to compete, and move forward.

And don?t mention the Bestway site..... it is so flawed it is pathetic!

It is only the location that is the problem and to my mind Everton Football Club is the team not the stadium. Remember LFC will be paying £30 mill a season.... at least in interest..... we won?t! We will be paying a max of 20% of cost, it is a great deal, it gives us a chance to compete; I fear staying at Goodison Park won?t.

Everton Football Club is not just the old stadium, this could be our one chance to use our full potential. Who is to say that if we were to stay at Goodison we won?t end up like Ipswich, nice club, great support..... but a nearly club!

It is a great opportunity, at a great price.... and the club were spurned by LCC on many other sites in the city.... We cannot build a stadia unilaterally, we need a partner...and this is one of the main sticking points for staying in the City, we need the council to work with us.... they won?t!
Dave Moorcroft
77   Posted 26/04/2008 at 21:31:00

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I said many times before the so called vote was taken,"That they were Liars", and I think the statement from DTZ confirms that. I also said, "They would move the goalposts to get what they want." Tesco are saying anything to appease the people of Kirkby, ie, changing their plans. Everton FC are doing absolutly fuck all about the mayhem that's going on within the real people's heads.

To you, Kenwright, I don't ever want to see your face or hear you voice saying what a great Evertonian you are. You are nothing but a typical politically thought-minded LIAR. We can all be Great Evertonians when we take millions out of this once great club.

Why are we the only prem club who is always crying fuckin poverty? I will tell you why!!! You have brainwashed a lot of Evertonians into thinking we have never got any money. That way, they will accept any shite that your horrible lying sidekick spews out.

To all the people who dont agree with me, tell me and all Evertonians your reasons. Please stick to the point.

Tom Hughes
78   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:29:48

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Colin,
How is £78m only 20% of the cost? Do you think £78m could build more than a Park end, when £130m can clear a contaminated site and build an entire stadium? What effect do you think a massively less convenient location will have on attendances (approx only 10-15% of the public transport capacity of Walton, only a handfull of traffic lanes serving it from the core support population compared to dozens at GP)? You could build the San Siro in Kirkby, but if people find it less convenmient then once the novelty has worn off, or results dip, people will stay away. Also regarding the Loop, you might wish to enlighten HOK the biggest stadium design company in the world about how pathetically flawed their report is, not to mention Trevor Skempton and the city planning Dept. While you’re at it you might wish to inform us about all the sites LCC spurned, regardless of the lack of relevance to the real issues such as why such a no-brainer as Kirkby needed to be supported by so many fabrications by the club (which has nothing whatsoever to do with LCC)?
Colin Wordsworth
79   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:22:19

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Tom

I don?t think Everton will be paying anywhere near £78 million for the build, more nearer £40M! We cannot afford to rebuild Goodison properly.

Do you want a stadia in the middle of a roundabout.... behave!, rubbish!

And I DO KNOW THE CLUB LOOKED AT TENS OF SITES..... we need a partner fullstop! And we need a new stadium! As for the transport difficulties I?m sure this will be ironed out and sorted.

The big problem as I see it is location, if this scheme was nearer Goodison here would be no problem!
David Thompson
80   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:50:49

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Colin,

The DTZ Financial Statement sumitted to KMBC and available on their website clearly states Everton will be contributing £78M. It’s not in dispute. Why do you think it will be only £40M?

Let me guess? Naming rights, sale of Goodison, sale of Bellefiled?

Well, Goodison has a mortgage, and isn’t worth that much as land anyway, after demolition costs have been met. Bellefield - ok, maybe up to £15M could be raised.

Naming rights? Will everyone who keeps trotting out this one please get it into their heads - THIS MONEY WILL HAVE TO BE BORROWED!!!!!!

Naming rights are not paid up front, but over the length of the contract - probably 15 years. Builders need paying up front (or on completion) hence, regardless of the amount of any deal, which is highly subjective to say the least, it will have to be borrowed - or ’securitised’ as DTZ put it.

This puts it in no different category to future season ticket sales (securitised already) or Sky money. It’s just another future income source, and the level of it depends upon a series of targets being met.

In all probability, if the contribution remains at £78M (highly unlikely, since it’s gone up from £35M last July) Everton will need to borrow over £60M.

The cost of this borrowing will be huge, and will hamper any future development of the team for decades to come.

End this madness now.

Tom Hughes
81   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:50:02

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Colin,
For all intents and purposes the Emirates sits in the apex formed by 2 sets of railway lines with full access on only ONE side. The Millenium is bound on one side by a river and tight blocks on all others. The Loop is not a roundabout it is completely accessible by pedestrians on the Scotland road side, Gt Nelson street and a pedestrian bridge, with relatively cheap cut and cover construction opening up the entire Juvenal street side, this would equate to a few percent of a stadium build cost. As far as your assertion about cost, I can assure you that if the cost was going to be as low as you say, KW would be shouting it from every roof top, and there would never be mention of this vastly inflated cost. These days however, he’s not allowed to just say anything and pass it off as fact so often (as you would have seen if you attended the last AGM). All of his previous offerings have since been disproven. £78m is the minimum we will have to pay. Any return from Bellfield can just as easily apply to redevelopment, and GP is already remortgaged to its full value according to company accounts with any meagre gain still applicable to the Loop. Therefore you’re claiming that naming rights alone will yield £40m, I don’t think so. When the scheme is called in due to multiple UDP violations the enablers will vanish and god knows what we’ll have to pay. You don’t know the club looked at tens of sites at all. They produced one redevelopment study (By Tesco’s consultants), and even that was dated several months after the vote, and NOTHING for any other site, and as I asked before..... what has any of this to do with LCC in any case, There are no planning applications or querries registered? As someone who worked on the design team for Merseytram, I can assure you the major transport defficiencies aren’t something so easily ironed out.... they’re on their 3rd plan already!
Colin Wordsworth
82   Posted 27/04/2008 at 12:24:53

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Tom

The loop is a joke... end of!Transport a red herring!.........there?s plenty of time for it to be sorted! If this scheme was on Walton Park or similar there would be no problem! The club has to move on like it or not!

I love Goodison but it has had its day. I know Kirkby is not ideal but we have to be realistic.... it?s the best we will get!

At the end of the day Goodison is not exactly situated in a great spot!....other than being in the city!........if you go to the game have a look around as you walk.!
Tom Hughes
83   Posted 27/04/2008 at 12:43:51

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Colin,
I’ve been going to GP for almost 40 years and also have full site plans....... I know it pretty well.

Saying the Loop is a joke without being able to back it up is quite frankly a "joke"..... I gave you 2 examples of modern stadia equally if not more constrained, both designed by HOK who support the Loop. I can add several more to that list. I am not against moving per se, hence my reference to the other sites, but I also understand the value of history/heritage and Identity, all of which will be compromised at Kirkby. I am also aware of the transport issues that have prompted several revisions to the Transport plan, that can never offer the accessibility of GP nevermind the city-centre Loop site.
David Thompson
84   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:40:33

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Colin....?transport a red herring - plenty of time for it to be sorted?

Tell that to people going to The Emirates, where the Transport Plan was done by SDG.

This is from a Transport for London report:

?Transport improvements have been achieved at new stadiums, such as Wembley Stadium, where the costs of investing in transport infrastructure have been shared between transport providers and developers. This is in stark contrast to the situation at the new Emirates Stadium where a number of promised improvements to transport infrastructure have not materialised.?

Link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2007/11/01/stadium_sport_travel_feature.shtml

The recommendations include "?Lessons learnt from the Emirates and Wembley stadium developments indicate that robust business costings and studies need to be undertaken at the start of the negotiations about these agreements."

?at the start..? - no one can doubt (surely) that there are huge issues with the current, (recently revised), Transport Assessment - even Merseytravel admit they haven?t got the buses to fulfil it. The proposed remedy is to increase the Park and Walk to an area even further away, and to a level which even SDG admit in the report contravenes current planning rules for new stadia, although they hope the distance from the ground will enable this to be overlooked.

It?s a shambles, and SDG have a track record in unfulfilled transport arrangements, Why on earth would you trust them?
Ciarán McGlone
85   Posted 28/04/2008 at 13:01:29

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Alan Willo,

You have dragged this argument into an all time low with your ignorant and wholly perjorative references to working class people ?bankrupting this city? .

Perhaps in sanctity of your callous and conservative pit, theres a lot less room for understanding and social equality......and perhaps that goes someway to explaining your idiotic and condescending attitude to this whole stadium debate and the idea of disclosure.

Shame on you, and any other Boris clones like you.

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