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A Material Consideration

By Neil  Adderley :  25/04/2008 :  Comments (51) :

As each day goes by and more information is released by various outlets and duly gathered by supporters, it is now becoming increasingly clear — if it wasn?t already — that all was not as it seemed.

Even down Old Hall Street, editors are giving the nod to headlines such as ?The True Cost? and allowing statements that seemingly challenge the validity of a mandate to relocate to Kirkby — ?obtained under false pretences,? — to grace their publications. Stirring stuff from the local rags. Is this a significant shift? Do the hacks know something we don?t? Is the Everton board?s continuing silence on this biggest of all issues (depending of course on your stance over Kirkby) good or bad news? Who knows? At least on that last question, the vast majority of Evertonians have some common ground.

Nevertheless, the debate — or in-fighting — between Evertonians rages on. So, while the cries of ?I told you so? are being met with shouts of ?yeah, but £78m is still cheap,? I want to attempt to take a different angle on this issue — the role Everton Football Club now finds itself in.

In March of 2007, a full four months before the ballot, work began in earnest on the huge amount of documents that make up the Tesco planning application. For such an application, whose significant non-compliance with planning policy is readily excepted by Tesco themselves, to be successfully accepted, it has to have enough weight or material considerations in order to attempt to balance out the contradiction to policy.

We have all been made aware of the ?positive? material considerations being used by Tesco as counter balance: regeneration, a revived town centre, 700 new jobs, road, parking and public transport improvements etc, etc. What I suspect the vast majority of Evertonians are not aware of are the ?negative? material considerations being used to add weight to the Tesco planning application. This, to me at least, unsurprisingly, is where Everton Football Club really comes in to the equation. In fact I should re-phrase — you will be aware of them due to the fact that almost all of them were first revealed by Keith Wyness, both before and during the ballot process. Here a just a sample;

Within the planning application Tesco state that:

  • Goodison Park cannot be redeveloped beyond a 37K capacity = material consideration in favour of the Tesco planning application.
  • If an alternative viable site for a stadium could be found then the need for the massive retail element in Kirkby could not be justified; there are no alternative sites for a stadium for Everton FC = material consideration in favour of the Tesco planning application.
  • Everton FC have a desperate financial need to leave Goodison Park. The club has explored all of the options available in order to fund a new stadium. Whilst the club has stabilised its position in the last few years there has been a legacy of debt which is long term in nature and impacts on present and future borrowing possibilities = material consideration in favour of the Tesco planning application.
  • The club cannot and are unlikely to be in a position in the future to fund the costs of the stadium = material consideration in favour of the Tesco planning application.
  • The current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club = material consideration in favour of the Tesco planning application.
  • Without ?a critical mass? of retail development (around 85,000 sq m) there can be no stadium, without a stadium there can be no retail development, without the retail development there can be no regeneration of Kirkby = material consideration in favour of the Tesco planning application.

There are more, lots more, and most of a similar ilk. All in black and white and available for all to read on the Knowsley Council website or in hard copy.

This, at the behest of a handful of middle aged millionaires is the role Everton Football Club finds itself in and whatever your stance on Kirkby might be; be you for, against or not arsed, I?d suggest you will have difficulty in denying the fact that a once proud institution has been purposefully presented as a wreck of a club, reduced to becoming a material consideration in favour of a Tesco Stores Limited planning application.

To rub a little more salt in, the figures of the development value and cost to Tesco given in the revised Financial Statement (page 7) (dated April 10th 2008) simply beggar belief and are even more incredible when you consider and compare the planned Tesco Extra that alone has a projected yearly turnover figure (2012) of £145m against the ?extra £10m in revenue? predicted by Keith Wyness last summer;

Value:

  • Investment Value £280m
  • Grant circa £10m
  • Total circa £290m

Cost:

  • Construction and other development costs circa £211m
  • Profit circa £27m
  • Cross subsidy from enabling development circa £52m
  • Total £290m

Against this £290m cost to the £multi-Billion monster that is Tesco, the current cost to the financial wreck that is Everton Football Club, as it stands is £78m.

?The deal of the century??

Reader Comments

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Pete Gunby
1   Posted 25/04/2008 at 04:19:51

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Good article Neil. Unfortunately I think most of us fans look at the statements and it reads "blah, blah, blah blah.....". There is also the added sense of helplessness that I’m sure many of us have felt upon realization that we have no control and no input over something we all care about so much. Facing up to the fact that our team is in the complete control of BK & co. is tough. Trusting that he will do what is right for the club requires massive amounts of faith. The bitter arguments and name calling that has arose with this issue reveals the passion of Everton fans.
Its beyond frustration but in the end, no matter how much kicking and screaminjg we do, only BK and co pull the strings. COYB.
p.s. You can thank me later for the uplifting remarks.
Ian McDowell
2   Posted 25/04/2008 at 07:40:42

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There has been so much written about the stadium move that I am lost now and have given up reading through it all. I don?t really know what is best for Everton Football Club and I am probably 60/40 in favour of moving but basically it looks like the move is going ahead now.
Alan Willo
3   Posted 25/04/2008 at 08:11:18

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What is up with you people? Kirkby is still the best deal on the table for EFC whether its £78 or 60 million. We can?t re-build or move elsewhere for that money so Neil, many thanks for your article, it proves very much in my mind that Kirkby is the best deal on the table.

Please all get in the real world, RS will need to borrow £ 200M+ to move and have debt close to £300M is that what you all want????RS have the Champion?s League, better income/sponsorship and are still in debt. All you people need to get in the real world and smell the coffee, it's clear as day light that this is the best we can get based on EFC revenue/earnings moving forward.

We are the poor relation when it comes to major investment; live with it. You all live in a financial fantasy world and the more articles that are posted like this, the more it?s obvious how blinkered you all are. If you have no money then you to make do, simple as. Kirkby is by no means ideal but it the best we can hope for and that?s life.

Nick Heady
4   Posted 25/04/2008 at 08:50:17

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Alan Wilko, Why is it that fans that don t want to move to Kirby are living in a financal fantasy world?
If I've got no money(which incidently is the case), then yes, you make do ? you don't borrow more and get yourself into debt, you try and make small adjustments, be frugal and try and work your way out of it.

"Kirby is the best we can hope for and thats life," ? that to me just says it all!

Gordon Blair
5   Posted 25/04/2008 at 09:06:40

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Alan,

In our impoverished financial circumstances, by far our best option is the phased, sustainable redevelopment of GP.
This may take a little longer, but within 10-15 years we could have at least the equivalent of Kirkby, at GP, without having to have taken on the same levels of indebtedness.

In fact, had we started to redevlop the Old Girl in the early 90s when this was all first raised, it’d pretty much be done now and we’d be reaping the benefits. All of which reminds me of an old Proverb:

The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now.
Steve Lyth
6   Posted 25/04/2008 at 09:52:05

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Nick, people like Alan dont deal well with reality, fantasy is a great release valve.
Eric Myles
7   Posted 25/04/2008 at 10:33:43

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Well it looks like Tesco Terry has got HIS Plan B sorted even if BK and KW haven’t got one.
With Tesco purchasing the Kirkby Town Centre site of their main competitor and opponent of Destination Kirkby if planning permission isn’t granted or gets called in then Tesco’s can just drop Everton like a hot potato and build their own Tesco Max in the town centre.
Pity Tesco Terry in his role as consultant to BK and KW didn’t advise them to consider a Plan B themselves.
David Thompson
8   Posted 25/04/2008 at 10:35:46

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Neil,

Excellent article which sums up the situation extremely well.

If only someone could explain how the ’cross subsidy’ of £52M from the enabling development becomes cash up front to pay the builder!
JL Slap
9   Posted 25/04/2008 at 11:01:22

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What a shout that old proverb is Gordon Blair.....
Stuart Fox
10   Posted 25/04/2008 at 12:07:48

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This horrible situation where EFC are getting into bed with Tesco and seem to be forcing a stadium and massive retail park town sends me into despair. I was always against the Kirkby move but everything you hear just makes it worse.

I can only assume the problem for EFC directors is that they do not want to sell the club and so must seek investors who are happy with a share in the stadium etc. I presume this is the case (but someone can put me right if I?m wrong) and I presume it is not easy to find such an investor. So I am just preying that Blue Bill is still looking for this elusive investor while the Tesco thing goes through its interminable planning application period. and that an alternative and better location might still happen if someone will come in and save us before this awful Kirkby thing actually happens.
Alan Willo
11   Posted 25/04/2008 at 13:04:22

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Nick/Steve, I?m very sorry but fact is I?m in the real world and live it every day. You guys have some dream that EFC are still a big club with loads of money. Sadly, I wish I was wrong but we have no money, no investor and have to ask for handouts either off LCC or companies such as Tesco. The Bar has been raised in the game of the Premier League and if we wish to play in it then we need to move forward and that?s what we are doing, it?s not perfect by any means but sadly we don?t live in a perfect world.

The difference is I?m a realist and not a pessimist. Gordon, I don?t think any Evertonian would argue against GP being rebuilt but sadly 15 years to do it doesn?t make commercial sense in an arena that wants the Board to spend big every summer. Like it or not we have to try and increase the earning power which in turn allows us to borrow against it. We may not agree with that approach as a loyal fan base but until some sugar daddy wishes to put in £100/200 million pounds over a three year period we are stuck with it.

All these anti-board post about BK & KW are just smoke and mirrors backed by the frustration of genuine fans that want us to be the best and have the best, that?s fine but sometimes dreams don?t come true. BK & KW's mistakes are purely driven by poor PR.

We would all take the same project in Walton Park every day of the week so it?s all down to location. Location will eventually be accepted as it normally is after time, its only 3.6 miles away, for fans in Magull, Fazakerley, Kirkby and other surrounding areas it?s actually closer. COYB

Neil Adderley
12   Posted 25/04/2008 at 13:40:17

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Eric Myles - "Well it looks like Tesco Terry has got HIS Plan B sorted even if BK and KW haven?t got one."

Eric, you have touched on one point I was attempting to open up. Alongside most of the PR rhetoric emanating from Goodison Park last summer, the now infamous Wyness quote; "No plan B" was a pre-conceived stipulation already included as a material consideration of the draft Tesco planning application. For Wyness of course, it also had, alongside the "Goodison is falling down" and "effectively free" statements, a necessary impact on the ballot result (which itself is included as a material consideration in favour of the Tesco planning application).

I can almost hear the screams of ?conspiracy? from certain posters. To them I would say; do not lose sight of the fact that Everton FC entered an ?exclusivity period? with Knowsley and Tesco in the summer of 2006. 9 months of pre-planning application discussions had taken place before work began on the actual planning application, in March 2007. During this time period and beyond, as is normal practice in this type and size of project, the strengths and weaknesses of the "partners" to be used as material considerations to the planning application would have been laid out and decided upon. Also, I would point you in the direction of cases such as Coventry City ? where the weaknesses of the club were used by Tesco to ?enable? a massive Tesco Express and adjoining retail park and even Newcastle United ? where a report stating that St James Park could not be redeveloped beyond 30k capacity was commisioned by the then incumbents to support a ground move project.

Finally, and a little closer to home, I would advise any Evertonian to do a little research into Keith Wyness?s aborted attempt to relocate Aberdeen from Pittodrie to Kingswells, on the outskirts of the city.

Included within Aberdeen?s planning application was a material consideration that all possible alternative sites had been studied and rejected and Kingswells was (for a number of very familiar reasons) the only available and viable site for a new stadium for Aberdeen........ Within months of the planning application being withdrawn (due to the calling of a public inquiry), Keith Wyness had set up a deal with Aberdeen City Council for a new stadium, a stones throw away from Pittodrie. Eventually that deal also collapsed and meanwhile Aberdeen continue to host European games at their historical home. Despite the material consideration that said Pittodrie would not meet future Uefa legislation regarding the hosting of European matches.

Here is a good place to start;


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20021027/ai_n12579651

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2333449.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/aberdeen/2992436.stm

Steve Lyth
13   Posted 25/04/2008 at 14:34:07

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Alan Willo, "I am in the real world and live it everyday", you certainly are in a world of your own fella.
Where did me and Nick say we were a big club with loads of money?
You're the one spouting about £78 Mil being easily picked up, do they let you out every day or what?
Jean Philibossian
14   Posted 25/04/2008 at 15:08:32

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For a rather intelligent fan base, why oh why are you all being so thick.

Why in god’s name are any of you still attending matches. The time to cripple that cock.....r KW is to show him who has the real power.

I have called for this kind of action repeatedly in previous posts, yet all that happens is more bleating.

One or two matches with less than half crowds will get the boards attention and perhaps finally shut up idiots like Alan Willo once and for all.
Jay Harris
15   Posted 25/04/2008 at 15:10:41

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After Trevor Birch took a few weeks to suss out the sins of the fathers and how many rabbits had been pulled out of the hat to give BK control of the club, the only option for BK was to find a like minded CEO.

Enter KW, a proven liar and with questions about his integrity that were well known before his appointment.

On the point of this thread, an excellent contribution Neil and if I can just compare the analogy:

If you have no money and the economy is questionable do you uproot from your long established neighbourhood and borrow around £100 million to go to some cheapskate jerry-built home in the middle of a Tesco car park in a difficult to get to backwater with contaminated land.

The answer has to be a resounding NO, especially if your financial advisors are none other than the incompetent BK and lying Bully.

GP is not about to fall down or be closed down.

It would cost around £25 million to make Bullens Road a world class stand with corporate suites and NO restricted views.

It would cost around £10 million to make the Park End two-tier and add about 5000 to 7000 seats. This can be done in our own time in the close season as funds allow and without disrupting income too much. Now to me thats more The Deal of the Century but unfortunately it misses on 2 key points:

It doesnt have a huge bonus nor "Incentives" for KW.

It doesnt facilitate the creative accounting that can go on with a major £130 million pound development.

So the only way we can stop this juggernaut heading over the cliff is to organise some way of protesting:

Banners at the game
Concerted Emails to BK and Everton
An organised petition
Organised chanting at the game with the media in full attendance. "We?re not going to Kirkby" anybody?
David Kiely
16   Posted 25/04/2008 at 15:13:51

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Absolutely spot on. The humiliating reduction of Everton to a ?material consideration? in support of a supermarket?s strategy is a sickening reality. This ham-fisted board letting Tesco make a virtue out of its mismanagement is surreal: ?this is what Everton DON'T bring to the party?.
Magic Johnson
17   Posted 25/04/2008 at 16:39:19

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The real humiliation here is winning nothing for 13 years, not even competing for the last 10 years at least.
Kenwright & Moyes have brought us as high as possible with the present facilities, we have to compete with teams that have 60-70 000 seats. If we can’t fill them then that will be the end of EFC as a genuine competitive force but to give ourselves the chance they MUST be built.
Mike Corcoran
18   Posted 25/04/2008 at 14:58:39

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It’s like the "Monorail" episode of the Simpsons
David Kiely
19   Posted 25/04/2008 at 17:13:29

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Magic - you believe taking our 36,000 average gate to Kirkby will see us become a ?competitive force? to challenge those in the 4 spots above us?

Even if that stadium had the ability to entice full gates out there in the pre-transport age tundra, and even if the Sky Corporate Four weren?t already over the hills and far away, Wyness?s little plan of hawking everything just to get there would prevent us seeing dime one invested toward the building of a competitive team in the first decade of its existence.

Haven?t you worked it out by yet - deal of the century wasn?t just a soundbite, it was also the personal perspective of a man who actually stands to receive one.
Alan Willo
20   Posted 25/04/2008 at 17:58:52

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Steve Lyth, you must stop returning with such articulate responses I?m ever so worried. The above article states EFC cost at £78 million. What I?m saying is, as stadium build costs go, that is a good deal. If you?re not capable of accepting that then you?re about as intelligent as your posts.

The problem with this move is purely location, that?s it. All the other cost, finance, projected earning etc?is all normal in today?s business environment. If they stuck this project in the middle of Walton Park, we would all be happy and TW articles would reduce by half overnight. By all means fight against the location but once the builders go in then its time to move on.

Anyway, that?s my last ever post on the Kirkby move as I?m completely bored of the debate as no one has ever to date come up with a plan B including BK and KEIOC. We are going to Kirkby, deal is done, see you all in the nice new stadium. COYB

Sean McKenna
21   Posted 25/04/2008 at 18:24:32

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Alan wilo, I'm sorry but location is very important; here's why.

Would you buy a mansion for 100 thousand in the middle of Iraq?? Even better, would you buy half a mansion for 50 grand in Iraq, THEN expect your family to follow you??? I'll let you answer! Were getting a crap stadium for a large sum in a place that most Evertonians don't want to go.

Now if we were getting a state-of-the-art stadium like the Emirates, maybe Evertonians would be happy enough to relocate, but the facts are we're not. Also, why move out of a city that is being regenerated at a very fast pace, then only to uproot to a small town with its own people who don't even want us there!!!! FFS, man ? get a grip.

I'm with the other fans, get your fucking fingers out and start protesting this Sunday, live on Sky, and let the world know we're not fucking happy... Here's a banner idea for Sunday... THIS IS OUR CITY, FUCK OFF TO KIRKBY, KENWRIGHT!!!

Tony Hawkins
22   Posted 25/04/2008 at 18:46:19

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A large portion of the impact for any potential stadium move is lost on many fans because of the financial implications. I do not mean that detrimentally or derogatarily to anyone but it?s the case. There are many who understand significantly (I?m dont including myself in that category) but on the whole it?s true.

How many fans said "no" to Kirby because of the cost or increased debt? How many registered that much of the figures will NEVER stack? How many noted that all new stadiums cost significantly MORE than the original valuations? Given Everton?s limited cash flow, how will they managed the almost certain increase in building costs?

Most said "no" due to location above all.

On the one hand I can see that a new stadium will bring in increased revenue from use and ticket sales; however, there are a number of financial hurdles to clear even before the first game can be played on the new "hallowed" turf...
David Kiely
23   Posted 25/04/2008 at 18:56:01

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Alan Willo - surrender accepted... Now all we need is for the organ grinders to issue theirs in the coming months.
John Gee
24   Posted 25/04/2008 at 19:15:22

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I was for the stadium move. I believed that a new stadium would attract investment and an aura progress would be infused into the club, hopefully translating onto the pitch.

And then that banner... "one club, one city, one love"

I?m from Kirkby and I see it that Kirkby is in Liverpool. I see myself as being from Liverpool. But, if just one person sees it that we would be surrendering the city to the RS then I say "fuck the move"

I wonder if the world famous Everton fan Terry Leahy would build some nice new homes on the Kirkby site to rehouse the couple of dozen families from the adjecent streets close to GP?

How about that great idea of rebuilding the stand so that it incorperates a tunnel for the Goodison Road outside?
Big blue Everton gates to the tunnel that light up of a night, Everton legends painted on the wall.
I can see the kids (future supporters) in their dad?s car right now, "can we drive through Everton?s tunnel?"

We should be redeveloping OUR HOME.
Tony Kelly
25   Posted 25/04/2008 at 19:34:12

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In answer to Alan Willo's comment that there is no Plan B, I ask him to refer to the glossy brochure produced when the Kings Dock scheme was first mooted. In this brochure there is a Plan A and a Plan B. Both being about redeveloping our spiritual home.
Ste Kenny
26   Posted 25/04/2008 at 19:44:16

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The biggest load of bullshit were being fed is that we can fill the stadium with new fans from the outlying areas around Kirkby such as Skem etc. But then on the other hand they tell us it?s only 4 miles away... So if the people from Skem etc want to watch Everton surely they wouldn?t mind travelling a few extra miles. Biggest load of shit I?ve ever heard.

I don't go in for the conspiracy theories, or that Wyness is getting backhanders etc, I just think the man's incompetent.

When we signed Gosling, he was all over the media saying how we had signed him "the Everton way". Why didnt we sign Pienaar the everton way, instead of having it all over the media, creating the impression we?ve got fuck all and can't even sign a £2 million player who even Stevie Wonder can see is worth between 3-5 times that.
John Gee
27   Posted 25/04/2008 at 20:14:39

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Maybe I?ve missed this being said before, maybe it was rejected because of reason or other...

Has anyone mentioned Walton Hall Park?
Rupert Sullivan
28   Posted 25/04/2008 at 20:53:00

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Allan Willo - the reason there is no Plan B is because Everton vetoed one with an exclusivity deal. There are many alternatives around which will not be investigated fully by EFC because they do not want to.

On a further note - Jean Philibossian - Spot on mate. I live in Bristol so do not go to too many games as it is, but if you really wish to prove that you do not want to move then put up a banner and boycott the match! BK and KW will have no choice but to respond to you, they may not reconsider the move, but they will have to acknowledge the force of your convictions.

I have stopped buying EFC merchandise and have cancelled my Everton TV subscription - and wrote to them telling them why - not a lot I know, but every step is a step closer.
Gavin Ramejkis
29   Posted 25/04/2008 at 21:54:03

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Ste Kenny I drive from Upholland with a carload of Skem family and we have family in Kirkby - not one of us want the club moving there we are happy with coming to where the club should be.

Kirkby had a little football team called Kirkby Town, they got renamed Knowsley Utd and moved to Huyton and then closed - Kirkby couldn’t keep a Northern Counties club afloat. Kirkby is a one horse overflow town that never went anywhere and never will, it’s as big as it’s going to get and no big Tesco or shed of a football stadium will change that.
Kevin Mitchell
30   Posted 25/04/2008 at 21:43:36

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I'm in total despair over this move, after 45 years service I'm ashamed to say I am starting to hope we don't qualify for Europe. Don't get me wrong; on Sunday I will be shouting the lads on, but after the game my focus will be on the ground move again. I only say this because any sucess on the field just plays into the hands of the board who I see as the enemies of EFC.
Can't believe I just said that.
Gerard Madden
31   Posted 25/04/2008 at 22:35:09

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Every Evertonian is entitled to their opinion and I will not criticise any blue on their personal stance on the move - each to their own. I can say though that i’m delighted over the move (with a tear for the ol’ lady of course) and can only see goodness coming out of it for the clubs future fortunes. Unlike Kevin Mitchell I really really hope we qualify for the UEFA Cup even if via the Intertoto - great for the club and the fans.
Robert Carney
32   Posted 25/04/2008 at 22:31:15

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It is interesting to note the chinless little shit who represents the part of Knowlsey has finally spoken. After the buying out of the opposition for 65 Million by Tesco the spineless bastard says he will make his opinion known later in the week , surprise surprise he has come out in favour of Tesco.

On another point, how come the other half of the land is worth £65million. That seems a lot to get what you want. With a town of 40.000 people, who is laughing at who.

There are a lot of questions that need asking regarding this planning application. Surely even this morally corrupt goverment need to take notice.

The chinless wonder balks at the cost of delaying the project. Fuck all consideration to his constituents. Maybe old labour is really back in control. We all know the history of Kirkby were land and ski slopes are concerned. ps: nothing aimed at the chinless wonder...
Peter Howard
33   Posted 25/04/2008 at 17:04:45

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I suggest Jay checks out what Trevor (football financial genius) Birch is doing now. Didn't he leave Derby (after more disagreement) soon after joining them from us?...mmmm?
Dave Moore
34   Posted 26/04/2008 at 08:33:16

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It seems to me there is now a split in the No voters camp, those who can offer sensible debate and those who talk utter crap. Spitting out dummies won?t get you anywhere, comparing EFC to Kirkby Town FC and calling Kirkby a "one horse overflow", comparing Kirkby to Iraq??

It seems to me that some no voters now believe they can turn the vote around by personally insulting other posters and having a go at Kirkby.

Yes I?m from Kirkby, No I don?t want to move from the City, but if you can?t put up some sensible debate shut the fuck up FFS.

Kirkby will be regenerated with or without EFC, Gavin, when you wake up in the morning in the internationally renowned City that is Up Holland try see if you can catch even an under eights footy match let alone a Northern counties!! And watch the shite in the farmers field.
Tom Hughes
35   Posted 26/04/2008 at 09:08:18

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Peter,
If we’re in research mode, you might wish to extend it to KW’s record at Aberdeen..... many parallels, and some less savoury incidents to ponder. Enough negatives to wonder how he ever ended up at EFC.
Bilbo Baggins
36   Posted 26/04/2008 at 11:15:34

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I went to the next round of consultation for the revised stadium on Wednesday at the Kirkby suit. The intereseting thing about the visit was the transport planner Knowsley council informed me that British Transport Police and Merseytravel have both objected to the stadium and if it doesnt pass through the planning application first time round, Tesco willl redevelop without Everton.
Vince Hindson
37   Posted 26/04/2008 at 11:27:55

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Monorail / Simpsons episode. Very funny. Good point.
Andy Willox
38   Posted 26/04/2008 at 11:52:10

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No defence of insults but a lot of people have put up extremely intelligent, reasoned and researched information against the move, Dave Moore, but to no avail, as I said that?s no defence but it is frustrating. The further you dig into fat pants' history, in the UK and Australia (law suits and court warrants) then it is apparent that his motives are selfish.

What doesn?t seem apparent is that ultimately we all want the same thing ? what is best for the future of our club. This has lead to a split of exact opposites: that the move would finish the club as we know it, No camp; or that it would gaurantee the club?s future, Yes camp.

My opinion is that this ill-concieved PR campaign, the amount of quite obvious problems, inaccuracies and the again, quite obvious, benefits for both KMBC and Tesco who are both in a no-lose situation (therfore no risk or gamble to them as opposed to the massive risk to us) shows it is a very sad day when we as a club are kow-towing to a supermarket and council, cap in hand, to try and survive off the field of play. For that alone Kenwright and Wyness must be held responsible.

David Kiely
39   Posted 26/04/2008 at 13:16:10

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Bilbo - interesting stuff! I know talk has been of the shortfall in availalble transport for ?the best serviced stadium in the North West?, law and order issues will be another dimension to this transportation headache. Little wonder these chancers are fighting shy of an inquiry.

Gerard Madden
40   Posted 26/04/2008 at 16:00:48

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As opposed to interent heresay and conjecture saying otherwise there’s actual ’evidence’ that Merseytravel actually see the Kirkby proposals as vital for its dream of the re-emergence of the Merseytram - now looking very likely particularly if Labour wins back Liverpool council next week. If people had been paying attention to their Echo/Post and listening to Radio Merseyside over the last few weeks/months you will see and hear ’quotes’ from Merseytravel being supportive - not heresay and conjecture.
Dave Moore
41   Posted 26/04/2008 at 16:42:06

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Andy I agree, people have put up more than reasonable debate on the subject. There are people who post here with some very good points, I don’t always agree with what they say but I do respect their opinion and knowledge of what they are talking about. However there is an apparent divide now amongst the No voters - those who say things constructively and those who can’t and therefore make stupid comments. What is the point of slagging off Kirkby? Its not the fault of Kirkby residents that EFC decided to try and locate there.
Knowsley council, I believe like most councils, would welcome the opportunity to regenerate and bring in a football club like ours, its just a pity LCC didn’t feel the same way about trying to keep us from the start.
David Kiely
42   Posted 26/04/2008 at 17:00:22

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Madden - have you been reading your Post this week and the report and editorial comment concerning a calling in of this madhatter?s tea party?

Lol!
Andy Willox
43   Posted 26/04/2008 at 17:13:36

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Madden resurfaces, hysterical! Found your rose tinted specs now have you?
Dave, I believe this week has been a bit of a rousing one for those against the move and as this whole scenario is so emotional to both sides it is when the likes of Mr Madden are reluctant to concede any point against kirkby either in locational terms or infrastructure or finance but continue the deal of the century rhetoric (so obviously torn apart as false whichever way it?s viewed) then I can see why some resort to name slinging, wrong though it is.

In this context I think those who are set against the move would settle for a pause in proceedings, if the timescale on the project is that imperative then why have the proposals taken all this time (and money) to finally come through? Surely one of this size would have meant fully scrutinised plans from the offset, including finances, not last minute.

If you?re heading for a crash you don?t wait until the last minute to avoid it, just in case.

This has fuelled conspiracies but has reinforced the labelling of incompetence directed at the Board.

Michael Kenrick
44   Posted 26/04/2008 at 17:25:16

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Some fair comments here on the quality of the debate, and the influence of the underlying emotionalism, which cannot be denied. It is a pity that there are some who are not interested in the exchange of ideas and information but are intent on slagging off, demeaning, or belittling the other side. I have been tempted to strong-arm them and have received requests that some of them be banned, but I have restricted intervention to just removing some of the more extreme nonsense or abuse that has been posted.

I would appreciate it, however, if those wishing to pigeonhole the position this website supposedly takes (Rob Jones, Pat Domingo) would either get their facts straight or just back off. We publish views from all sides of the issue, as long as they conform to our Conditons of Use.

If your post has not made it as a Mailbag thread starter, it is primarily for editorial reasons. Write it well, without being abusive, condescending or repetetive of another thread, and it will be posted.
Gavin Ramejkis
45   Posted 26/04/2008 at 22:50:09

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Dave Moore I have family in Kirkby, spent years of my childhood visiting them still doesn’t change my mind that its a shithole, if it wasn’t then why does it have a 40k population and nothing going for it after all these years? Upholland is where I chose to buy a house, yes it’s tiny but try a bit of homework son, it’s an historic village dating back way beyond Kirkby and despite it’s size and proximity to Skelmersdale where I lived as a child it’s still light years ahead of Kirkby. The notation of Kirkby Town in which I had a cousin who played for years by the way and went on to Knowsley Utd was to show that the place couldn’t even support a tiny local club with the majority if interested in sport split between the two Merseyside big clubs and rugby. Debate takes a little nous and interpretation of information, maybe writing things in expansive verbose loops might help but I really cant be arsed if you cant see the point and think Kirkby is the promised land then you should apply for a job with KW and BK as one of their propoganda merchants. I enjoy debate but not a petty slagging match, if you don’t agree then give a balanced explanation as to why, not just I’m from Kirkby and Upholland is shite (it’s one word by the way)
Karl Masters
46   Posted 27/04/2008 at 00:31:25

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Spot on, Jay Harris. I really do despair at the- people who cannot see through Wyness.

The answer is to develop Goodison properly, even if it takes 10 years. It?s what the likes of Villa and Newcastle have done. The fact it should already have happened is surely a testament to the the short-sightedness of Philip Carter, the impotence of Dr David Marsh, the greed of Peter Johnson, with BK probably guilty of all 3 failings in some respects laced with incompetence and a sly one in Wyness.

Jesus, if I had the £100m to get shot of these bungling idiots I?d do it tomorrow and I?d turn EFC around. Sadly, that is not quite possible, but I also know that Kirkby is a dead duck and that is what keeps my hopes up.
Dave Moore
47   Posted 27/04/2008 at 09:45:24

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Ahhhh Gavin you?re the perfect example of what I?m talking about here. You can?t offer sensible debate so you start slagging off Kirkby. Also its quite clear you know nothing of Kirkby or even UpHolland (is it a capital H ?) I don?t need to do any homework son - a simple google will show any historical statistics about your village (1066AD) and our town (820AD). Anyway I?m being drawn down to your level now and in grave danger of becoming what I?m against.

"Kirkby has nothing going for it"- its has one of the biggest industrial areas in Europe and did have the biggest in the 70s, Oh and by the way it's very possible it could become the home of one of the worlds best footballing institutions ? EFC or are you forgetting this is what it?s all about?? Now when are you getting the new roof for the church hall??
David Kiely
48   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:21:36

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Dave - get over it mate, no one?s remotely interested in slagging the people of Kirkby off. This is - and always has been - about demonstrating that every which way you look at it (culturally/economically) that town is not the right place for Everton FC.

Getting all precious over an overspill town quite frankly baffles me. We all have to come from somewhere, right? Why get all defensive about Evertonians making the more than obvious point that it would be disastrous for the club... even if it does spill over into vitriol against the town on a couple of occasions?
Dave Moore
49   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:52:07

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David - first off so we are quite clear here I am against the move to Kirkby. I live in Kirkby, I know what Kirkby is and I know what it isn?t. I?m not getting all precious over Kirkby at all, I am sick to the back teeth though of reading stupid fucking posts from people who, rather than offer up valid debate for not moving, persist in throwing out shite and creating stupid fucking statistical garbage. When are you lot going to get it into your fucking heads that if you want EFC to stay in Liverpool you should be aiming your weapons at the club and LCC. There are bigger "shitholes" than Kirkby in the area and at the moment Goodison Park is in one of them, so why the fuck don?t LCC spend some of their cash on that area? Answer because its being spent on the new Anfield. Some people really need a good dose of reality on here. Kirkby doesn?t need Everton, the people of Kirkby don?t need Everton. The club and its owners have decided Everton need Kirkby!!
Robbie Muldoon
50   Posted 27/04/2008 at 12:35:54

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Some great posts in this thread. The links to the stories relating to Keith Wyness trying to move Aberdeen to the outskirks of the city (and failing) have really opened my eyes further to this lying fat twat.

Surely people can see the the huge financial gains Wyness and Kenwright are set to make if the move happens!?

My quote of the day was the proverb ’ best time to plant a tree, 20 years ago. Second best time, now.’

Redevelop Goodison before ripping the club apart in Kirkby.
Andy Crooks
51   Posted 28/04/2008 at 18:43:45

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Robbie, the second best time to plant a tree might be now but by the time it grows there will be a European league and we won?t be in it. We need Goodison redeveloped within five years and that isn?t even a remote possibility with Bill Kenwright in charge.

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