Funny how that song always plays in my mind when I read the shallow, short-sighted ramblings of a minority of Thaksin Shinawatra wannabes whose only tiresome commentary is to bitch and piss their way through an entire season.
When I watch the team I too want to see us playing like Arsenal, but then I wake up and realise that Arsenal didn?t always play like Arsenal. Under George Graham they too were a bit boring. They had to be in order to stabilize the club and manage their way to success.
Now year on year Arsenal replenish that standard by attracting (IMO) the best manager and players in Europe, huge investment and a beautiful stadium to a team whose pedigree is far from where it was before George Graham.
Success breeds success I hear some cry. But that has not always been the case now has it. So in 6 years Moyes has failed to win anything. Colin Harvey, Joe Royal, Walter Smith, Howard Kendall and Mike Walker had 14 combined years and all we had to show for it was an FA cup win against an injury hit Manchester United side after an easy road to the final. Don?t get carried away boys, we weren?t that good!
Hate to say it but silverware is not the be-all-and-end-all a football club. Winning something might have negative returns. The club might feel that they have done enough. That we have arrived and nothing new need be done. Remember 1995? The FA Cup win taught us nothing. The same failings and administrative problems were still there. The same systems and mechanisms that highlighted our limitations were not targeted and removed. We believed our own hype and landed right back where we started.
After that the club fell even further into debt. We lost hope, we lost direction, we lost respect, we lost our pedigree, we lost our talent, we lost our managers, we lost our kit sponsor, we lost our Merseyside rivalry and we so damn near lost our premiership lives.
Since Moyes we have regained everything that once was lost. He has gutted out and truly managed the club and we now march to the beat of a different drum.
Tottenham Hotspur, Newcastle United and Manchester City with all of their money and arrogance look up to us. This season alone David has been linked with all three, as well as Celtic, England and Scotland. He has again won the Times statistical manager of the year, and could easily command a bigger wage, transfer kitty and prestige, so do you really think he needs us? If he indeed stays it will be out of loyalty and love for our club (something rarely found in today?s current climate of players and managers).
On paper we have no right to expect Europe but again we stand at the waters edge. We have no right to 5th place on the money that Moyes receives yearly. We have no right to sign players of Arteta's, Pienaar's and Cahill's quality for a combined £5.5 million (due to lack of funds), and to expect a C Ronaldo, SW Phillips, and Lampard performance. But you know something? for Moyes, they fucking try.
Truth is the fast food/ Mtv generation will have you believe that Football Manager isn?t a game.
So fellows if you want instant gratification you can always switch off the lights and lose 5lbs ?the hard way.? But if chess is your game and you?re patient about our future then you like I will endure hoofball in the present if European qualification attracts the financial investment and the players who will make us consistently play on the ground and eventually challenge the big 4.
The journey isn?t over yet, the graft work is yet in play and once Moyes gets us to where we need to be he will either have to evolve, be removed, or step aside for the good of the club.
Will he, won?t he? We don?t know, I guess we will cross that bridge when we come to it, but for right now? we need him!
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1 Posted 10/05/2008 at 04:22:57
the only thing I would point out is that we were never lower than 4th under Harvey and that was considered a disaster after the 80s success.
2 Posted 10/05/2008 at 07:31:21
3 Posted 10/05/2008 at 08:03:49
In terms of the post I wouldn?t say the Spurs match in the 95 FA cup run in was easy, they were a good side yet the only team we conceded a single goal against in that campaign and even that was a dodgy Klinsman dive for a penalty, Joe Royle had his team of underachievers believing they had the right to take the game to anyone.
4 Posted 10/05/2008 at 08:52:12
And anyone that says Moyes can?t win must win games. How about Utd, the Ferguson header? That practically ensured we reached the Champions League.
And no one has mentioned the fact that we beat the Uefa Cup finalists 2-0 in the UEFA cup! Which just goes to show what a lottery wining a cup competition is! It was also a must win game as it meant we qualified for the knock out stages without having to go to Alkmaar and win (which incidently we did! The first team in 30 years to do so!)
5 Posted 10/05/2008 at 10:25:38
ps Jay W - we beat Zenit 1-0, and as much as it pains me, that was down to us being at home and them getting a seriously dodgy sending off. We did play for an hour (or more) against 10 men. The Alkmaar result was great too ? but you don?t mention the Bucharest one??
Anyway my point is only that as a support we have a right to criticise as well as praise. Moyes deserves both from time to time.
6 Posted 10/05/2008 at 10:45:06
As for George Graham being boring when he turned Arsenal around after a bad period of not winning trophies, firstly he generally got the tactics right (unlike Moyes) and secondly he won trophies. If I recall it was three league titles, one FA Cup, one league Cup and the European Cup Winners Cup. Not bad for a boring manager!
7 Posted 10/05/2008 at 11:55:43
If he goes, there?s plenty as good to replace him!
8 Posted 10/05/2008 at 12:20:03
By and large I don’t have anything too specific about our beloved Chairman, just his acute lack of spondulicks and the criminal delay in being so effing slow in getting Davey to put pen to paper.
9 Posted 10/05/2008 at 12:32:30
10 Posted 10/05/2008 at 12:45:29
11 Posted 10/05/2008 at 12:50:30
What a larf.
12 Posted 10/05/2008 at 12:53:51
13 Posted 10/05/2008 at 13:22:10
14 Posted 10/05/2008 at 13:34:02
15 Posted 10/05/2008 at 14:44:05
16 Posted 10/05/2008 at 14:49:40
17 Posted 10/05/2008 at 15:00:56
I'm with Moyes on this one, and yes he has his failings as a manager at times but he has taken us to where we are today and I hope he stays around for at least five more years to continue to push us to the next level, sadly we all know that ain't gonna happen as long as Kenwright and Wyness are on board.........
18 Posted 10/05/2008 at 15:04:10
As the article indicates, most of you won?t realise what you had until its gone. Good on you ? I am sure some of the negative undertones and reaction by elements of the supporters are reason for Moyes?s recent reluctance to commit to Everton.
Some of you think after a a few seasons of stability we are on the brink of permanently breaking the top 4 ? not going to happen in modern football guys and besides, I would take 5th place over a season containing a few "cup final" style victories over Utd or Arsenal and a lower table finish any day.
If I was Moyes I would be inclined to walk. How can he win when expectations are unrealistic and what he has done so far is not good enough given the state of club he inherited and resources available?
Get a grip - we?re on the brink of self-destructing and being back to square one.
19 Posted 10/05/2008 at 15:39:31
The facts are simple and plain to see for all; the squad needs adding to with at least a minimum of six players brought in (hopefully at least two of them being big signings) to bolster the size of the squad and add quality to the team, if DM is not supported and then walks away then we will probably have a half decent season next year and then so begins the slide back to mid table mediocrity with some half-wit Yes-man of a manager who will probably fail to work the miracles that DM has with the money he has been given.
We all know that every penny the club has is tied up in the Tescodome project, and that what little that becomes available will not be enough for us to add what is needed to the squad and move on. I hate to say it and be negative but although we need a new stadium at present the lack of funds available could be our undoing and where do we go from there???
20 Posted 10/05/2008 at 16:33:25
Long live the Moyesiah!!!
21 Posted 10/05/2008 at 16:32:15
I?ll tell you where we go: We get rid of this Dreaming Charlatan of a chairman who got 65% of a club now worth £100 million for about £1 million of his own money and REFUSES to dilute his shareholding to attract investment. Instead of Blue Bill he shouild be known as Black Bill.
We need a demonstration of the order that got Johnson to sell up and nothing less will be enough. We don't need Bill Kenwright and we certainly dont need his cover up buddy Wyness.
It is no coincidence that Moyes and the team have had a poor last couple of months. The players must know something?s up.
22 Posted 10/05/2008 at 16:43:56
Moyes is doing an excellent job though.
23 Posted 10/05/2008 at 17:15:51
I believe Mourinho to be such a longshot that we?d have as much shot getting him as we would Ferguson or Wenger -- I think most people are "sensible" enough to realize that?s what I was getting out without taking it literally.
24 Posted 10/05/2008 at 17:30:33
25 Posted 10/05/2008 at 18:23:45
It is extraordinarily unlikely that anybody would take a minority non-controlling equity holding in the club - and then pump in the millions we need. (This is about as likely as Jose Mourinho becoming our new manager this summer.) So dilution has nothing to do with anything.
The only scenario in which Everton gets substantial new investment is if someone else takes over the club - i.e. buys at least the majority, probably all, of Kenwright’s equity holding. That has not happened because no one has wanted to do it enough to go public and make the attempt (as we see happening all the time with other Premiership clubs).
Once more: Kenwright isn’t (yet) stopping anyone buying and investing in us, because no one (yet) has seriously tried.
26 Posted 10/05/2008 at 18:46:09
27 Posted 10/05/2008 at 19:05:43
"Once more: Kenwright isn?t (yet) stopping anyone buying and investing in us, because no one (yet) has seriously tried."
The revised Planning Statement (Document 18) released by Tesco, reveals that if there were investors who had the financial clout to wholly or partly fund any new or redeveloped stadium for Everton Football Club, then those investors would be turned away by the current board;
6.10 states "the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club."
So long 24/7 search and not blocking serious investors.
28 Posted 10/05/2008 at 18:53:49
It seems to me that we all need a reality check.
Everton have over achieved this season and may qualify for the Uefa Cup next season by limping in - remember 4th place ? we didn't win it, the others lost it.
Moyes makes the point that significant investment is required to take the team to the next level. The problems associated with Liverpool and Arsenal, may mean a couple of good buys and 4th is realistic.
However, watching the semi against Chelsea and even last week's game v Arsenal, may indicate a need for a significant change in Moyes?s approach. The loss of Cahill has impaired the teams performance overall, but in my humble opinion the futures blue and next season, the futures a dynamic, slightly taller, Moyes inspired team. One that than break in to the Sky TV?s big 4.?
Caution though: see Spurs, Newcastle, Villa and maybe Man City.
29 Posted 10/05/2008 at 19:32:48
Who has overachived?!? If you ask me, we underachived and why should everyone try to underestimate all our achievements? The table doesn't lie; we finished 4th because we won it. Come tomorrow and we will be in Europe for the 3-rd time in the last 4 years.
The other thing that really baffles me is - Are we so successful to refer to Uefa/Carling CUP as the Mickey Mouse Cup; you are right ,someone really needs reality check.
30 Posted 10/05/2008 at 19:44:53
31 Posted 10/05/2008 at 20:05:41
32 Posted 10/05/2008 at 20:12:22
33 Posted 10/05/2008 at 21:37:05
For the avoidance of doubt (& pedants) Rob Newland was patently referring to the ludicrous fantasy that any manager of that pedigree/demand/earnings capability of Mourinho/Ferguson/Wenger/Rijkard et al will a) not be interested in managing Everton (at this juncture), and b) WAY beyond our budget.
So please, FFS, can we all grow up and keep the debate interesting.
34 Posted 10/05/2008 at 22:01:07
The reality is - THERE HAVEN’T BEEN ANY prospective investors. There hasn’t been anyone for Kenwright to turn away.
Do you think somebody with the odd £100M who seriously wanted to take over one of the top 30 football clubs in Europe would keep quiet about it, be deterred into complete monastic silence by the current owner, and we would have heard nothing whatsoever of it? Like has happened (NOT) at Liverpool, ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle. Portsmouth, Man City, West Ham etc. etc.?
I know you simply want to stick Kenwright with whatever you can, but staying somewhere in the proximity of the real world really would help sometimes.
35 Posted 10/05/2008 at 22:07:09
They have all the ignorant audacity of ungrateful and ungracious children carping about their parents inability to satisfy their every whim. Just like bratish children those who take every opportunity to point out every weak area in our manager seem to have no conception of the monumental effort it takes to do as much as what he does already. They seem to think he is expendable. All I can say is God help Everton if he goes because there is no plan B. We can?t afford one.
36 Posted 10/05/2008 at 22:08:50
Stan suggested: "If he goes, there?s plenty as good to replace him!"
Peter then asked: "Who?s as good and available Stan??? Give me at least five names as you said there?s plenty."
And Stan replied: "OK, Peter! How about Mourinho, Sven, Rijkaard, Jol and McLaren for starters?"
The question was not whether they would come but whether they were as good as Moyes, and available.
Hardly an interesting discussion really, more like a stupid schoolkid playground one, but not helped in any way by Rob Newland?s typically scornful and derisory post that named two managers who are not even available.
37 Posted 10/05/2008 at 22:20:24
It is 100% obvious (he has basically said it) that he is waiting for a top ten (minimum) European club with a guaranteed Champions League place and a massive transfer budget.
The only even vaguely possible scenario in which Mourinho would take over at Everton is if we were bought by someone mega rich who granted him an immediate £100M+ to spend. Although I doubt even that. So we can safely conclude that he is not available to manage Everton.
The importance of this is that the relevant Moyes comparisons are therefore (at the top end) with the likes of Allardyce, Jol and McClaren. All of whom have underperformed Moyes in the Premier League.
38 Posted 10/05/2008 at 23:40:14
39 Posted 11/05/2008 at 01:07:49
40 Posted 11/05/2008 at 07:57:27
Allardyce is probably one of the most negative and unispiring managers out there, his after match interviews would send an Insomniac to sleep.
I would prefer to keep Moyes than any of those managers, it was just a few months ago we were on a run playing football that you would struggle to get from "the special one" everyone was happy(well I think anyway). but unfortunately injuries, tiredness and loss of form were to blame for us stuttering, does Moyes derserve to go because of this?? Well I think you would have to be harsh to say yes.
Moyes is not perfect but I think he has done a fantastic job and if Kenwright was able to get him £20 -25 million than I think you would see us moving on another stage, if as I expect he is given around £5 million pounds and told to wheel and deal than Moyes will do the best he can and in my opinion that will be better than the other managers available.
41 Posted 11/05/2008 at 09:11:11
42 Posted 11/05/2008 at 10:38:56
We can all accept that there are better managers than David Moyes out there, Mourinho being an example, the problem is there aren’t any who would be interested in managing Everton. Rob simply made this point using the razor sharp tool of sarcasm, he did nothing wrong, so to do the online equivalent of shouting him down and putting ’end of’ is not doing yourself or your credibility much good.
43 Posted 11/05/2008 at 10:41:54
I am praying that we can get the win and end the season on a high... but if we do draw and still hold onto 5th, I for one won't complain coz we did better than teams who spent much much more than us.
I read that this maybe Carsley?s last match for us and I for one would like to say thanks to him for all that he has given for us over the years. He may not have been the most skillful of players but he always gave his best for us. I don't think that the FA Cup win of 95 was easy by any means but I also agree that silverware is not everything. I am praying that Moyes stays and signs a new contract.... Let's make the last home game of the season a memorable one... COYB
44 Posted 11/05/2008 at 11:25:22
45 Posted 11/05/2008 at 12:58:12
46 Posted 11/05/2008 at 14:18:01
The blunt truth is that, to generate the additional monies required, we need a rich new owner willing to sink tens of millions of his own money into the club. There is no way around this. And Kenwright is currently doing absolutely nothing, nor could he do anything, to prevent such a prospective new owner coming forward.
Such a new owner would make Kenwright very rich, and it is extremely doubtful that Bill could resist the pressures to sell if such a buyer emerged. But the new buyer has not emerged. And, however much many of you would like all the problems of our club to Kenwright’s fault, given that under his Chairmanship we are now the most admired club outside the top four (Keegan et al), he can scarcely be blamed for someone not wanting to buy our club.
47 Posted 11/05/2008 at 15:45:13
48 Posted 11/05/2008 at 17:30:46
49 Posted 11/05/2008 at 17:37:16
David Moyes has been the salvation of this club. And furthermore, Bill Kenwright had the wisdom to employ him.
All those disapointed with Moyes, should we now go for Sven?..he’s free..an 8-1 drubbing at the Boro should ensure that scenario.
Have patience Blues..Trust in Moyes, Trust in Kenwright, and support the club, even if sometimes they may do some things you may not agree with.
You know something..? they may just know better than you do.
50 Posted 11/05/2008 at 20:43:19
"Trust in Kenwright"!!!!!!!
Are you joking? Name one thing this man has done to deserve our trust. It didnt take wisdom to employ DM - he was recommended by Walter Smith and according to Kenwright sold himself at interview (which probably means he was available on the cheap).
Anyway lets see if he has "the wisdom" to keep him by backing him in the transfer market.
51 Posted 11/05/2008 at 23:58:27
We just qualified for Europe AGAIN!!
No-one remember the nineties? Being an Everton fan was no fun whatsoeveer. Every season came down to me spending the last few weeks praying for all I was worth (and I?m not even religious)
We had a string of ?successful? and ?passionate? managers and they achieved jack (with the excepiton of Royle who won us a cup and then nearly had us relegated). I?d swap getting into Europe consistently and not worrying about relegation in years for one cup in over 15 years before DM joined us.
We are achieving. Obviously we want to move on, we want to win the league, we want to win the Champions League. But I?d rather be the "People's club" and have built a real team than have some random foreigner come in and give us a bucket of cash so that the fans don?t matter any more and still not win much.
For God?s sake, we should be happy with what we?re achieving, and I am! We should obviously strive to improve but right now I?m buzzing about what we have managed!!
52 Posted 12/05/2008 at 01:39:23
Manny?s loan period is over
Gravesen and Wessels are going
VDM should be going!!
Carsley is either going or on his last legs
Phil Neville is not the answer at RB nor MF
Arteta, Cahill, Vaughan, and Hibbert may not be the same next season due to their various injuries/operations
And worst of all, although its only paper talk, there is definitely a crack in the Moyes/Kenwright relationship.
We need to act now before we are trumped for the best players and we need to get players together for proper squad preseason preparation.
53 Posted 12/05/2008 at 01:48:23
It seems you need to be PR agent for BK. I have constantly disagreed with you about him. In your earlier post you claimed that BK would have to sell out completely then as Gavin pointed out this is not the case he could simply dilute his shareholding to attract investors but has stated on the record that he has no intention of diluting his shareholding.
You, therefore, as a management consultant ought to know that even Father Xmas would not seek investment in a club where the major shareholder has 66% and is unwilling to dilute his shares.
We also disagree on this point: Most rich people prefer to do their business in private unless they are outright publicity seekers.
Dave Whelan even came out today and said he had the chance to buy United in the late 80?s for 10 million and declined. Most of these approaches only come to the media if there is a chance of a takeover but with Bill?s 66% and reluctance to dilute his holding it actually deters investment.
Even his longstanding friend Paul Gregg said the same before they fell out.
54 Posted 12/05/2008 at 06:01:32
Firstly, for the record, as of May 07, Bill Kenwright held 8,754 shares in EFC Co Ltd. ? 25% ... not 66%.
66% is the approximate joint sharholding of the Everton Board of Directors: Kenwright, Woods and Earl. You could argue that, since the board is united behind Bill, his ownership is effectivey 66%, which enables him to weild power... but in reality this is done through the united Board.
You may be right in effect that, for anyone to gain control of EFC, they would need to buyout the full 66% held by the Board. However, if it was an amicable sale, I see no structural reason why Bill could not sell his 25% stake, and the buyer gain control, with the goodwill of the remaining Board members.
The reason this does not happen is liklely two-fold: they don?t want to sell... and thus there are no real prospective buyers. It takes two to tango.
I can?t really blame them for not wanting to sell; I think, if Kirkby goes through, they are effectively sitting on a goldmine. How big a goldmine probably depends on the size of the debt at the time but a nominal club value of £100M would net Bill over £2,000 per share over what he paid for them (BTW, I think he put up around £7½M, not £1M; we haven?t found anyone on here to coroborate your claim that he leveraged the £7½M through teh club?s books). I?m guessing that number would be pro-rated down by the magnitude of the outstanding debt at the time, but he stands to make a tidy sum when (not if) he decides it?s time to move on.
But why would he do so now? If the Tescodome is a real prospect, he has every reason not to sell.
55 Posted 12/05/2008 at 09:20:30
Now this will upset a few of you, but if Arteta went for £12M (I pray he does not)you could get 3 or 4 players for that...
56 Posted 12/05/2008 at 10:18:59
you?re absolutely right but I think Bill?s reluctance to dilute his shareholding has more to do with ego than money.
He has his train set now but I think he was hoping for CL qualification to bankroll spending and we may be disappointed this summer.
57 Posted 12/05/2008 at 10:15:49
It is essential that we keep perspective.
Moyes has utterly transformed this club; the 10 year anniversary of our near-relegation is a sharp testimony to how far our expectations and achievements have come.
It is essential that we demand year on year GRADUAL improvement, rather than quick-fix, instant gratification.
This season has been an awesome one for EFC and I’ve very proud (once more).
Now all our eyes are on next season, we must be realistic - the club needs to begin by replicating the achievements of this season: good quality value for money signings similar to Yakubu, Pienaar and Jagielka, good cup run, excellent showing on the European stage, ’best-of-the-rest’ placing in the league to get Europe again for the third season running.
THEN if we surpass these acheivements in any way such as: getting a truly World Class player, winning a trophy (or at least a Cup Final), or hitting the RS for 4th - then we can properly say the club is moving forward.
We don’t want boom or bust like Man City, Newcastle or Spurs. We want steady consistency and gradual improvement at all levels of the club. You will soon be hearing the expression ’The Big Five’!
Bit by bit we’ll get there. But we need to keep the patience and support intact. This season has seen a lot of ugly attacks on Arteta, Yak, Howard, PN, Cahill, Johnson and Moyes.
These are great days to be an Evertonian. Make the most of them and enjoy them, because we were a long time down.
AND GET MOYES A NEW CONTRACT!!!
58 Posted 12/05/2008 at 10:42:09
59 Posted 12/05/2008 at 12:25:04
60 Posted 12/05/2008 at 13:33:22
Moyes - In an interview yesterday he constantly refused to confirm he would be here after next season just responded by saying "I will be sitting down with the chairman next week he and well see what he has to say."
Following his statement the other day:
?I haven?t actually been offered a new contract and nothing has been mentioned about talks.? Moyes also revealed that he is in the dark about how much he will have to spend in the transfer market.
?It may seem strange to be preparing for another season with just one year on your contract.
?But maybe that is a question for the chairman".
Kenwright - "I?m seething there is a five year contract worth £10 million waiting for David Moyes"
Wyness - "The manager and Chairman have been in talks for 3 months and it is going very well."
I am led to believe (although it is from an Auntie's Uncle's Niece) that DM presented an A list looking for £40 million and a B list looking for £20 milllion and Bill nearly fell out of his chair. DM then took his bat and ball home and here we are.
I think DM is a very principled man but also likes it in return and reading between the lines, as none of us except maybe DM?s wife, really knows what is going on.
I just know this: We, apparently, had £12 million for Manny "He?ll be signing in the morning" Fernandes last August and we got around £6 million for Faddy less £2.5 million for Peanuts.
We have lost Stubbs, Beattie, Naysmith and probably Gravesen, Carsley, Wessels off the payroll recouping £5 million in fees.
With the Sky windfall and our European adventure this season I would be disappointed if we had less than £30 million to spend and that is IMO why Moyes is P?d off.
But as they say, let's wait and see.
61 Posted 12/05/2008 at 13:35:46
It's the same with Moyes but obviously to a lesser extent. He has worked wonders so far and i believe will continue to work wonders. Ye,s there will be blips along the way like with Fergie but the potential of this man is massive and to lose him would be as much of a disaster as it would have been had Fergie left Man U when some fans were getting on his back because they wern't having it all thier own way for once.
62 Posted 12/05/2008 at 12:34:59
Imagine being a spurs/man city/west ham/newcastle or boro fan???
God help us all if we ended up with one of their managers. (Ramos exckuded - he hasn’t played with HIS squad yet - but Jol??)
As far as I am concerned - if it’s not broke then don’t try and fix it.
5th with our squad? Is anyone telling me that any other manager plying their trade in THIS league, with the limitations on budget that moyes has had to deal with would have got us there?
If so can some-one please let me have his name?
Be happy for cryong out loud!!! - Every other fan outside the "TOP 4" would love to be in our postion.
Great Article Jason.
Lets just hope Moyes gets a few bob from bill and co - and gets the players he wants.
I for one am loving being an Evertonian right now - I can just see us getting better and better.
Glass is half full here.
63 Posted 12/05/2008 at 13:54:45
I think the only circumstances in which he will leave is if he feels the board are thwarting his ambitions by failing to come close to what he needs to kick on.
He is very very ambitious and extremely talented despite what some goons keep saying about him. But don’t forget, this is everton, one of the biggest clubs in britain. He knows he can do all he wants to achieve with us. He wants to make EFC really big again. I think that’s his ambition. If he can achieve that with the budget constraints he is always under it will be the biggest fuck off achievement of them all and would put him right up there with the greatest of all time.
64 Posted 12/05/2008 at 14:02:08
Have to agree with JayHarris though, that it’s scary we’re getting contradictions in regards to DM’s contract talks... let’s hope that the title doesn’t actually happen.
65 Posted 12/05/2008 at 14:12:41
66 Posted 12/05/2008 at 14:15:20
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