Location, Location, Location
By Marko Poutiainen : 23/07/2007 : 
Comments (41) :
Comments (41) : Any business-owner knows location is the key. You want to have your business in a place where people want to come to. Of course this has to be offset by the costs of buying or renting the space but location is still a critical factor.
It is said that that's why the McDonald's restaurants didn't use to go bust. They are always located in prime locations. Of course these days the company is in a different kind of trouble with people being made aware of the poor quality of their offerings but they managed to go for decades without a single restaurant going bankrupt. The first one, allegedly, in Germany was closed because the council built a new major road in a location that drew the customers away from the restaurant.
After this prologue I'd like to ask if Kirkby really is such a great place for a football club? I can see several problems:
1. Logistical issues
There will only be 1000 parking spaces for match-goers.
There is only one rail going to Kirkby, it will not be nearly enough.
People leaving the area by car will mostly use only one road, which will certainly be congested. The number of roads is much less than around Goodison Park and there's isn't a big shopping centre next to it.
2. Business issues
Will Kirkby really be a location that will draw the business-people? Would you take your clients to a stadium in the outskirts of the city located in a giant shopping centre?
How will it affect the match-goers? The whole area is totally different from Walton that you won't be going to the pub before the match and walking in just before the kick-off. I know many find these "non-match" issues important.
3. Image/Brand issues
This is the difficult one: how will it affect the club in the long run that it is not located in the City of Liverpool any more? You can say all you want about Kirkby being the Merseyside, but this is an issue our dear neighbours will ram down our throats from the point a decision to build the stadium to Kirkby is made. And they will make sure everyone knows Everton is not in Liverpool any more, with great glee. Will you enjoy reading articles starting like ?Everton Football Club has severed it's ties with Liverpool where they played for over 120 years by moving to the small town of Kirkby...?? That's what every Reds supporting reporter will write, even some that now are writing pro-move articles in the local papers.
That's the business side of things. Then comes the really scary part.
Our Board.
I know a lot of people think they are doing a great job. I don't. These are just some of the things I wouldn't expect from a competent board:
- Quadrupling the debt while selling every saleable asset the club had and getting 20+ million for Rooney, 8 million for Jeffers, 6 million for Michael Ball and so on. In fact the club has spent something like 10 million net in players over the past five years. And to blame it all on Goodison Park is ridiculous. GP is hardly the worst stadium in the country.
- The NTL fiasco.
- The FSF fiasco.
- The failure to deliver the King's Dock stadium.
Managing to make a loss on merchandising and not being able to fix it by themselves, but rather outsourcing the whole thing to JJB. I find it completely incomprehensible when you think a shirt cost £5 and they sell them for £50 and should have a good idea on how many shirts they sell every year ? they have the data from past years.
Without the miracles David Moyes has produced I fear where the club would be.
And now the information we hear about the new stadium is vague at best. The stadium has cost £50 million, £75 million, £100 million and £150 million. It will have 55,000 or 50,000 seats. There will be 4000 or 1000 parking spaces. It will create maybe up to 10 million extra revenue while the fittings might cost as little as 10 million and the club needs to take maybe only 10-15 million more debt.
The last point is a major sticking point. The cost to the club depends on how much the sale of Goodison Park will generate and how much the club can gather from naming rights. Wyness has stated that the sale of GP will create 15 million pounds. To me it sounds an awfully lot in Walton. Naming rights should generate 35 million, which also sounds quite a lot considering Arsenal got about 50 million from Emirates.
If the club can't make that much money from those two sources it means it will have to take on more debt on top of the existing one, which is somewhere around 50 million. I think Wyness is deliberately playing down the numbers. Also, I can't see how revenue would increase by ten million in the new stadium, and neither does Wyness, or so it seems. The club finds it hard to sell all it's 11 corporate boxes currently, how will it sell 40 in Kirkby? And considering a number of fans will stop going to Kirkby, it will require an awful lot of new fans to increase the capacity by any meaningful numbers. And will this increase be long-lasting? And what makes the club think they will be more attractive to out-of-towners after the club moves to Kirkby? No doubt revenue would increase some, but is it really worth moving for, say a 4-5 million increase?
But it wouldn't sound so good if extra revenue was only 5 million while the club had to increase it's debt by 25 or 30 million and that's why we get these vague numbers.
I also have an issue with the land value. The value of the land now is pretty much nothing. That's because its not in a good location. Just because it might be surrounded by shops won't make it worth 50 million to a football stadium. It could make it worth that to some other business that benefits from those shops but I can't see how a football club could. So adding the 50 million to the total costs to make the deal look bigger is quite dishonest in my opinion. The actual cost of the stadium is quite low and that's why Wyness wants to use tricks like these. £75 million is not a lot of money on a new stadium and that's why our "world-class stadium" is now merely a "high-class stadium". And what will it actually look? The Ricoh Arena looks nothing like the original sketches, for instance.
There are a number of questions I'd like to have answers to:
- What is the REAL cost of the stadium to Everton Football Club?
- What is the business case for the move? Where and how much will extra income come? I want more detail than just "up to 10 million extra".
- Is it really apt for a club of Everton's pedigree that a construction company designs the new stadium instead of an architect? Archibald Leitch and all that.
- What is the role of Robert Earl, who was recently promoted to the Board, in all this? How much will he and the other Board members benefit personally from the move? As far as we know, his only input to the club so far has been to bring Sylvester Stallone over for a match. Now, on the eve of the biggest decision this club has done for over a hundred years he is suddenly elected to the Board.
- How on Earth can Tesco get Barr to give a 25 million discount on the building costs? It would be hard for a construction company to get that sort of money back because in effect it would mean taking a loss on the project.
Don't believe the hype. There are always alternatives. The Board blew the first one (King's Dock). Others will come.
And don't believe the spin. Just today there was an article in Liverpool Daily Post by Mark Thomas which ended with the sentence ?Would you rather watch a Riquelme in Kirkby, or a Brett Angel in Speke??. That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Almost parody-like. The new stadium isn't a magic wand that suddenly allows the club to sign the best players in the world.
Reader Comments
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Great article Marco, I was laughing on the floor reading for 25m discount on 75m deal. Not to mention the ridiculous media spin, the Board is pushing us toward Kirkby move without giving any information except "deal of the century" and no Plan B. Its a shame but I think that we are off to Kirkby.
Could someone provide me with info about The NTL fiasco. I think I have missed it.Tx
Long story short:
Kenwright had made a deal with NTL for £x (substantial amount, can’t remember how much). For some reason the club never ratified it (i.e. signed). Then NTL went bust.
Trouble is, the club had already used the money promised in the deal to purchase players. This lead to some serious financial problems.
Kenwright had made a deal with NTL for £x (substantial amount, can’t remember how much). For some reason the club never ratified it (i.e. signed). Then NTL went bust.
Trouble is, the club had already used the money promised in the deal to purchase players. This lead to some serious financial problems.
My negativity towards Kirkby was allayed slightly by the release of the stadium pictures. However, I think you’ve hit many of the nails on the head with the logistics, business issues and image / brand issues. Also, I feel I’m getting rail-roaded or bullied into this Kirkby. No Plan B? What kind of business has no Plan B? You are also right that those pictures of Kirkby are really presenting things in the best light. You reminded me of that scene in "Falling Down" when Michael Douglas questions the picture of the hamburger on the wall compared to the one he’s just bought. The Kirkby stadium could well be the latter. We need to make a Plan B and Plan C even though it will take longer. LCC say Plan B and C are in the city. Plan A should then be to make them deliverable in business terms.
Does the author of this tome seriously think that the Everton Board and their advisers have not addressed all the points he raises?
Why does he consider there is any compunction on the Board to share their business dealings with all and sundry?
Everton FC is not owned by its supporters nor is it a public company.Surely it’s enough that the principle shareholders (the risk-takers)are satisfied that this is a good deal for the Club.
Only the nosey knockers want to hear the minutiae of every business deal the Board enters into.
Too many ’Evertonians’are using this ballot as an excuse to pour out their bile on a Board who have done well to steady a rocky ship and get us into Europe twice in three years.Lay off,I beg you!
Why does he consider there is any compunction on the Board to share their business dealings with all and sundry?
Everton FC is not owned by its supporters nor is it a public company.Surely it’s enough that the principle shareholders (the risk-takers)are satisfied that this is a good deal for the Club.
Only the nosey knockers want to hear the minutiae of every business deal the Board enters into.
Too many ’Evertonians’are using this ballot as an excuse to pour out their bile on a Board who have done well to steady a rocky ship and get us into Europe twice in three years.Lay off,I beg you!
We really can’t have it both ways; to criticise the board over things like NTL and Fortress Sport and then complain they are being too secretive now.
If they release too much information at this stage and some of their ASPIRATIONS fail to come off, their critics will leap on that rather than giving credit for what they do achieve.
I also think if we do manage to acquire a stadium on the cheap, thanks to Tesco or Bestway or whoever, a new buyer won’t be far away - it’s the prospect of having to finance a stadium that frightens investors more thna anything I suspect.
I also think the board can be pretty sure of what it will get for GP because Tesco will put a superstore on it!
Whatever the outcome of the vote, I just hope it turns out to be the best one for EFC.
If they release too much information at this stage and some of their ASPIRATIONS fail to come off, their critics will leap on that rather than giving credit for what they do achieve.
I also think if we do manage to acquire a stadium on the cheap, thanks to Tesco or Bestway or whoever, a new buyer won’t be far away - it’s the prospect of having to finance a stadium that frightens investors more thna anything I suspect.
I also think the board can be pretty sure of what it will get for GP because Tesco will put a superstore on it!
Whatever the outcome of the vote, I just hope it turns out to be the best one for EFC.
Ah, another "Evertonian" who won’t follow the team a couple of miles.
The club needs real supporters. Don’t ones who are more interested in having a pint in some dive before the game.
Go and support the redshite.
The club needs real supporters. Don’t ones who are more interested in having a pint in some dive before the game.
Go and support the redshite.
Why can’t more people see that Kirkby is just Bully Wyness railroading the fans into a stadium that he NEEDS to keep himself in a job. The sheer amount of spin since the ballot announcement is unprecedented in our history. I don’t really care where the stadium is, but I’m not a fan for Kirkby, but we are allowing a sub-standard stadium to be spun into existence. There are too many questions and weaknesses. We need to fight hard and fight now otherwise we are allowing the custodians of our great club to consign our futures to mediocrity!
Great article Marco, hit on all the valid points. I dont trust Billy Liar. Remember he always used to say Evertonians will have the final say. At last AGM it was Evertonians will be kept fully informed !! The so called vote is corrupt.
I am in favour of the move but I liked that this article actually focused on the business issues. Not sure where figures came from but at least it’s focus was business not the "we are selling our birthright" bullshit that predominates this debate from the anti Kirkby side.
However one issue at least that was off the mark and key to something that needs to be and can be got right. Transport. There are possibilities at Kirkby for decent mass transit that can only be dreamed about in Walton. Space for coaches off the motorway, expanded rail services etc. I don’t care about lack of car parking because by 2010 any business with large private car parks are going to be (green) taxed to bits anyway. And for the truly green why not cycle paths from Walton that way we can have a German style stadium and a German approach. Though the idea of of some of our lardier support arriving by Raliegh Racers does alarm me slightly....
However one issue at least that was off the mark and key to something that needs to be and can be got right. Transport. There are possibilities at Kirkby for decent mass transit that can only be dreamed about in Walton. Space for coaches off the motorway, expanded rail services etc. I don’t care about lack of car parking because by 2010 any business with large private car parks are going to be (green) taxed to bits anyway. And for the truly green why not cycle paths from Walton that way we can have a German style stadium and a German approach. Though the idea of of some of our lardier support arriving by Raliegh Racers does alarm me slightly....
Supporting a football team is about the whole experience not just 90 minutes in a fancy new stadium. ’A pint in some dive’ and being able to banter with ’City rivals’ can be as important as the football especially having suffered some pretty dire football during the late 90s.
I’m not sure GP would have been as full as it was back then if it hadn’t been for it’s location and die hard walking support.
I’m not sure GP would have been as full as it was back then if it hadn’t been for it’s location and die hard walking support.
I agree with you Marko Kirkby is a disater waiting to happen.All aspects of the deal are flawed and it will be the death of us moving there.The one point on which you are wrong is the boxes at Goodison.They dont have trouble selling them now .There is a waiting list of about 10 names and no more are being taken as it is pointless.No one is giving up a box in the near future.We would definetly have problems selling corporate facilities in Kirkby but with a state of the art stadium in the city it would be no problem.
Location ,Location,Location
Location ,Location,Location
Good to hear a Scandanavian perspective !
Nice one Marco, remember Wimbledon away at New Year ’95? Only got in for the 2nd half?!!
Nice one Marco, remember Wimbledon away at New Year ’95? Only got in for the 2nd half?!!
I am all for a move away from Goodison. We are falling behind in alternate revenue streams aside from the die hard supporters.
However i am unsure about Kirkby. Although it looks financially like the best deal this "board" can get, therein lies the problem.
This board have not done much to inspire any sort of confidence. The exclusivity period was an absolute disaster PR wise. If LCC were allowed put forward ideas concurrently the degree of transparency would have been a lot higher.
Kenwright has failed on so many levels since taking over that his incompetence is becoming embarrassing. And where is our great leader who bleeds blue when we all have so much that needs answering? He’s hiding behind Wyness and not uttering a word.
He’ll be the first to get in the photo shoot with any half decent signing but when it comes to the biggest decision in the history of the club he is mute....probably working 24/7 to get investment!!!
Trusting this man and his "board" with our long term future is in my eyes a risky business.
Catch 22 with new owners obviously unwilling to put an offer on the table until the stadium issue is resolved but nevertheless its a worrying time to be an Evertonian with so little hard fact to go on.
However i am unsure about Kirkby. Although it looks financially like the best deal this "board" can get, therein lies the problem.
This board have not done much to inspire any sort of confidence. The exclusivity period was an absolute disaster PR wise. If LCC were allowed put forward ideas concurrently the degree of transparency would have been a lot higher.
Kenwright has failed on so many levels since taking over that his incompetence is becoming embarrassing. And where is our great leader who bleeds blue when we all have so much that needs answering? He’s hiding behind Wyness and not uttering a word.
He’ll be the first to get in the photo shoot with any half decent signing but when it comes to the biggest decision in the history of the club he is mute....probably working 24/7 to get investment!!!
Trusting this man and his "board" with our long term future is in my eyes a risky business.
Catch 22 with new owners obviously unwilling to put an offer on the table until the stadium issue is resolved but nevertheless its a worrying time to be an Evertonian with so little hard fact to go on.
I agree with most of that apart from the ’Logistical issues’ Kirkby has two rail lines one for Liverpool people and one for the ’wools’ so to speak! And whats this one road people are mostly going to use? Thats what I would like to know.
I think all Evertonians in their heart of hearts believe the city of Liverpool is it’s home. As much as the move to Kirkby is appealling, in getting a spanking new stadium, it’s wrong to move away from the city. End of. We need to keep everything in perspective, the "board" will give their left leg to move to Kirkby, but that is only because at this precise moment in time, it is the most financially secure route for them. But another location will come up, patience is key. Don’t believe the hype the "board" are building up. Keep the future of Everton Football Club at the fore-front of your thoughts, Kirkby would be a disaster. EFC belongs in the city of Livepool. That is paramount to the future of the club.
Marko ,have you ever seen the Kikby site "the number of roads is much less than around Goodison" there’s a fuckin motorway 500 yards away
Doddy’s right.This ballot thing is a fucking disaster.Just encouraged all the doom and gloom merchants to come out of the woodwork-nobody does doom and gloom like Evertonians.
I couldn’t give a stuff where we play-what’s important is that we keep up the progress made under Moyes.And who appointed him,eh?
I couldn’t give a stuff where we play-what’s important is that we keep up the progress made under Moyes.And who appointed him,eh?
My only comment about this (as one of the great "undecided") is about the alleged current debt of £50m. I would really like to know where you got this information and whether this figure is accurate or just made up. How is it broken down?
To Tom: who gives You the right to suggest that Marko (or any other one who doesnt go to every (home)match) isn´t a "real Evertonian"?You got to remember that this is the same guy who created this very same website.
Marko, a good article and highlights some key fears.
The current level of debt is believed to be around £49m. Considering what our neighbours are on, that’s relatively small and manageable.
However, there are a number of issues. Regarding your point on lack of roads, as has kindly been pointed out, the M57 is literally metres away from the site so congestion out of Kirkby on match day will not be a problem. Secondly, I don’t think people will stay away from Kirkby as much as they are saying. I know our fans are known for being a bit fickle but by and large, we have a very loyal support, and I don’t see that changing with us moving to a new stadium.
Don’t forget lads, when we moved to Goodison Park in 1892, we technically weren’t in the borders of LCC then, either. It wasn’t a problem back then, it wasn’t a problem back in 1997 with the first ideas of moving to Kirkby Golf Course, why the sudden change of heart?
The current level of debt is believed to be around £49m. Considering what our neighbours are on, that’s relatively small and manageable.
However, there are a number of issues. Regarding your point on lack of roads, as has kindly been pointed out, the M57 is literally metres away from the site so congestion out of Kirkby on match day will not be a problem. Secondly, I don’t think people will stay away from Kirkby as much as they are saying. I know our fans are known for being a bit fickle but by and large, we have a very loyal support, and I don’t see that changing with us moving to a new stadium.
Don’t forget lads, when we moved to Goodison Park in 1892, we technically weren’t in the borders of LCC then, either. It wasn’t a problem back then, it wasn’t a problem back in 1997 with the first ideas of moving to Kirkby Golf Course, why the sudden change of heart?
If the club are going to get land FOC from Knowsley council and investment from Tesco to build a new stadium why not explore the viability, the board would not be doing there job. Also LCC wont give EFC any land FOC they want money, no investors are willing to back EFC to the level that tesco are as yet with a site in Liverpool. If we get a new stadium on the cheap so what that should leave money for players, not arsed where we play as long as were playing good footbal winning games. IMO IF YOU LOVE EFC THATS WHAT REALY MATTERS
Peter, regarding your last paragraph, I believe the problem is Kings Dock. The bar was raised so high then, putting the stadium in the emotional heart of the city, that any new proposal will be compared to that. As things go (finances aside) the Kirkby project is a very poor second. Yes I know finances are a very major part of this move - however the chopping and changing of numbers doesn’t inspire confidence. So I for one would like to see the numbers behind the proposal - the Business Case should set out the numbers. I’m worried by the use of certain words "upto" £10m extra - why "upto" - what does this depend on? What happens if you’re wrong? (more debt???)
And a point about the Motorway next door, yes it’s a motorway, but there will be a bottle neck getting onto the motorway, Its going to cost something like £1.5 million pounds to signalise the junction to better manage the flows onto the mway (I got the cost from a similar junction on a scheme I’m working on at the moment in case anybody questions it - but is is just to give you a clue of how much these things cost).
Although I’m leaning towards ’no’ to Kirkby - I’ll wait until I see the information provided to us for the ballot. Then I’ll MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.
And a point about the Motorway next door, yes it’s a motorway, but there will be a bottle neck getting onto the motorway, Its going to cost something like £1.5 million pounds to signalise the junction to better manage the flows onto the mway (I got the cost from a similar junction on a scheme I’m working on at the moment in case anybody questions it - but is is just to give you a clue of how much these things cost).
Although I’m leaning towards ’no’ to Kirkby - I’ll wait until I see the information provided to us for the ballot. Then I’ll MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.
My problem with Kirkby is this: Everton (unfortunately) is a much smaller club than Liverpool on national and international scale. We have less money, fewer fans and have won less - especially in very recent years.
Having said that, locally we are AT LEAST on a par with LFC.
The city of Liverpool is growing rapidly at the moment. Confidence, investment etc in the place is as big as it has been for 50 years. New people are coming to the city all the time. If we are not part of the city I fear that we will lose a lot of potential support and probably even more potential exposure and investment. Our support in the city may well (gradually) dwindle, as kids who have a mum who’s an Evertonian and a dad who’s a Liverpudlian will feel more of an affinity to LFC, whilst people new to the area will not identify with the club in a way they could if we were part of the city.
This in turn means that we will struggle on a national and international scale, as we will not have the exposure of being part of one of the major provincial cities in the country.
In my eyes Kirkby is part of Liverpool really, but the city boundaries will mean that our relationship with the city of Liverpool will never be the same again and I think this will harm us greatly in the long run.
It’s this, not the sentimental stuff, or the extra 4 miles out of town nonsense which worries me. King’s Dock was our big chance and we blew it. Simple as. Now we have to find another alternative IN LIVERPOOL!
Having said that, locally we are AT LEAST on a par with LFC.
The city of Liverpool is growing rapidly at the moment. Confidence, investment etc in the place is as big as it has been for 50 years. New people are coming to the city all the time. If we are not part of the city I fear that we will lose a lot of potential support and probably even more potential exposure and investment. Our support in the city may well (gradually) dwindle, as kids who have a mum who’s an Evertonian and a dad who’s a Liverpudlian will feel more of an affinity to LFC, whilst people new to the area will not identify with the club in a way they could if we were part of the city.
This in turn means that we will struggle on a national and international scale, as we will not have the exposure of being part of one of the major provincial cities in the country.
In my eyes Kirkby is part of Liverpool really, but the city boundaries will mean that our relationship with the city of Liverpool will never be the same again and I think this will harm us greatly in the long run.
It’s this, not the sentimental stuff, or the extra 4 miles out of town nonsense which worries me. King’s Dock was our big chance and we blew it. Simple as. Now we have to find another alternative IN LIVERPOOL!
Tom,
is that the only braindead answer you can come up with? "go and support the red shite" You fucking Wally,read it again and try and educate yourself.
is that the only braindead answer you can come up with? "go and support the red shite" You fucking Wally,read it again and try and educate yourself.
I saw today that the redshite are all set to move into their lovely new stadium (60,000 with possible increase) at the same time we are due to move to kirkby. if we are still at goodison when that happens i feel we will be a laughing stock. it is not feasible to upgrade Goodison and i can relate and understand with all and sundry about their reluctance and not for wanting to move from our spiritual home. With the Shite moving out of analfield and we staying put in a frankly outdated stadium they will be right under our noses and we will have to put up with endless taunts and such. As a former Liverpudlian, born in Blackpool but having spent 16 years residing in Wavertree and Speke I can understand the wish for not wanting to move out of the city. It has been said before and I will say it again, we were the first in this city and I for one to not want the Shite having the city all to themselves. But by the same token it is imperative that we move on to better facilities and a move to Kirky or whatever with help and investment is one way towards future prosperity. There has been a lot of talk about the whole damn matter but whatever the end product its going to be interesting.
I have genuine fears that the average Evertonian will be hoodwinked by the inept everton board into voting yes to the move to kirby... as stated, if there is no plan B then heads should roll, as no viable business should ever be without a contingency plan...
My advice to all Evertonians, is not to look at the fancy pictures of a proposed new stadium, but instead to vote no, and force the current board into looking at viable alternatives including the redevelopment of our school of science...NO TO KIRBY.
My advice to all Evertonians, is not to look at the fancy pictures of a proposed new stadium, but instead to vote no, and force the current board into looking at viable alternatives including the redevelopment of our school of science...NO TO KIRBY.
Thanks to everyone for their comments. Some comments from me:
"Does the author of this tome seriously think that the Everton Board and their advisers have not addressed all the points he raises?"
They probably have, problem is what is good for them isn’t necessary good for the club in the long run. Wyness for instance: he’s no Evertonian and I doubt he won’t be here in five years’ time. So why should he care what happens to the club in 20 years’ time?
"I?m not sure GP would have been as full as it was back then if it hadn?t been for it?s location and die hard walking support."
Nail on the head. The fact you can walk to the stadium from the pubs is a massive plus-side at GP. I have been to various stadiums around the world and it’s just not the same if you park your car, go watch the match and then drive home. Especially when the team is playing poorly the temptation to stay home would be much greater.
"Nice one Marco, remember Wimbledon away at New Year ?95? Only got in for the 2nd half?!!"
Yes, definitely :) Although I think we got in with a bit to spare in the first half. We only missed all three goals...and the bastard steward lying Wimbledon had scored another..
"Marko ,have you ever seen the Kikby site "the number of roads is much less than around Goodison" there?s a fuckin motorway 500 yards away"
One road is hardly enough. The new stadiums like Reebok, Riverside and Madjeski all have a road next to them and all I hear is how much time it takes to get away from the stadiums. And lets not forget there will be a whopping big retail park next door, I can imagine that at least on Saturdays there will be quite a lot of non-matchgoers trying to leave the area as well. Goodison Park is one of the quickest stadiums in the Premier League to get away because there are so many routes you can take.
"My only comment about this (as one of the great "undecided") is about the alleged current debt of £50m. I would really like to know where you got this information and whether this figure is accurate or just made up. How is it broken down?"
The number is a sort of best guess from last years’ accounts. The Bear&Sterns loan is still well over 20 million, there are short-term loans and overdraft totalling some 20 million and I’ve heard the club made an eight million operating loss last season (the accounts haven’t been published yet so can’t confirm).
"Does the author of this tome seriously think that the Everton Board and their advisers have not addressed all the points he raises?"
They probably have, problem is what is good for them isn’t necessary good for the club in the long run. Wyness for instance: he’s no Evertonian and I doubt he won’t be here in five years’ time. So why should he care what happens to the club in 20 years’ time?
"I?m not sure GP would have been as full as it was back then if it hadn?t been for it?s location and die hard walking support."
Nail on the head. The fact you can walk to the stadium from the pubs is a massive plus-side at GP. I have been to various stadiums around the world and it’s just not the same if you park your car, go watch the match and then drive home. Especially when the team is playing poorly the temptation to stay home would be much greater.
"Nice one Marco, remember Wimbledon away at New Year ?95? Only got in for the 2nd half?!!"
Yes, definitely :) Although I think we got in with a bit to spare in the first half. We only missed all three goals...and the bastard steward lying Wimbledon had scored another..
"Marko ,have you ever seen the Kikby site "the number of roads is much less than around Goodison" there?s a fuckin motorway 500 yards away"
One road is hardly enough. The new stadiums like Reebok, Riverside and Madjeski all have a road next to them and all I hear is how much time it takes to get away from the stadiums. And lets not forget there will be a whopping big retail park next door, I can imagine that at least on Saturdays there will be quite a lot of non-matchgoers trying to leave the area as well. Goodison Park is one of the quickest stadiums in the Premier League to get away because there are so many routes you can take.
"My only comment about this (as one of the great "undecided") is about the alleged current debt of £50m. I would really like to know where you got this information and whether this figure is accurate or just made up. How is it broken down?"
The number is a sort of best guess from last years’ accounts. The Bear&Sterns loan is still well over 20 million, there are short-term loans and overdraft totalling some 20 million and I’ve heard the club made an eight million operating loss last season (the accounts haven’t been published yet so can’t confirm).
I cannot in all honesty understand the so obvious dislike of locating in Kirkby.
As an area, it is light years ahead of our present venue. Goodison Park is old and so out of date.
Now to the question of pubs. There seems no doubt that a number of supporters find quaffing a few ales before the match, to be almost the best part of the day. Pause a moment though, what proportion of the games supporters actually find the ritual so important.
Speaking for myself, I have never gone nor have I ever had any desire to become one of the tipsy mob who throng the turnstiles close to kick off.
As an 8 year old lad, I remember well climbing the stairs on the old Bone Shaker at the Pier Head. It took quite a time to visit Goodison in those days, very considerably longer than it will take to get to Kirkby. Why then the cries of doom.
Kirkby sounds like a really pleasant location for our new and improved club.
I am so looking forward to the coming season. We can anticipate a new much improved stadium in 2/3 years and , in the meantime, I have a great feeling we are going to have a team which can compete with the ’big boys’.
As an area, it is light years ahead of our present venue. Goodison Park is old and so out of date.
Now to the question of pubs. There seems no doubt that a number of supporters find quaffing a few ales before the match, to be almost the best part of the day. Pause a moment though, what proportion of the games supporters actually find the ritual so important.
Speaking for myself, I have never gone nor have I ever had any desire to become one of the tipsy mob who throng the turnstiles close to kick off.
As an 8 year old lad, I remember well climbing the stairs on the old Bone Shaker at the Pier Head. It took quite a time to visit Goodison in those days, very considerably longer than it will take to get to Kirkby. Why then the cries of doom.
Kirkby sounds like a really pleasant location for our new and improved club.
I am so looking forward to the coming season. We can anticipate a new much improved stadium in 2/3 years and , in the meantime, I have a great feeling we are going to have a team which can compete with the ’big boys’.
When they say that there is no "plan B", I THINK they don’t have any other plans for a new stadium at this moment... and in my eyes that fault isn’t theirs.. it’s LCC that hasn’t given us reasonable locations to build a stadium.
Plan B right now is staying put and waste more years while LCC is keeping us on hold. We lost Kings Dock, and that was a big mistake. Now we stand to miss this one as well, and if we do miss this one due to fans voting no and no good stadiumlocations crop up from LCC I definately can see fans being against this move complain at our current board that they didn’t do something about this when they had the chance.
I for one are for this move since there is no other plausible option to it. And if this move turns out to be a mistake... well I’m going to blame myself for thinking it was a good idea, but I won’t blame the board. The board have gotten sites from LCC over the years, but they all fell well short over our requirements or has even gotten turned down by their own experts, when we asked for a specific location we got turned down. When Liverpool asked for the same location shortly afterwards they got "yes".
Plan B right now is staying put and waste more years while LCC is keeping us on hold. We lost Kings Dock, and that was a big mistake. Now we stand to miss this one as well, and if we do miss this one due to fans voting no and no good stadiumlocations crop up from LCC I definately can see fans being against this move complain at our current board that they didn’t do something about this when they had the chance.
I for one are for this move since there is no other plausible option to it. And if this move turns out to be a mistake... well I’m going to blame myself for thinking it was a good idea, but I won’t blame the board. The board have gotten sites from LCC over the years, but they all fell well short over our requirements or has even gotten turned down by their own experts, when we asked for a specific location we got turned down. When Liverpool asked for the same location shortly afterwards they got "yes".
The McDonals’s on King St in Newtown, Sydney shut because the area is full of students and lefties who wouldn’t be seen dead in there plus it was always full of smackheads who sat around all day freaking people out and eating the cheap ice cream cones.
Fascinating to read so many points and opinions on the debate of our great club.
I am not in favour or support a move to Kirkby as I feel this will be a complete and utter disaster; moving out of the city boundary and allowing them twats "the freedom of the city" will be a huge deciding factor for many future generations of potential Evertonians; my one year old son included!
The one point that sticks in my mind is the lack of evidence of outside activity regarding potential investors during this recent "boom period" the City is going through; despite us needing urgently a new stadium even that shouldn’t put off some of the interested billionaires banging on other (smaller & lesser supported clubs) as opposed to ours. Lets face it, we are sleeping giant, surely?
Something stinks here and we are being kept in the dark; the Tesco connection is IMO the problem and neither BK or KW are aware of the long term disaster’s ahead. Sir TL doesn’t give a fcuk about EFC; he wants the Goodison footprint to build a new Tesco’s on and he will build another Tesco on our proposed new ground in Kirkby. Great business if you can get it; but what other huge, established long term businesses are moving out of the City boundaries during what is at this moment in time the economic boom the City has never seen before in it’s 800 year history (Capital of Culture etc). A move out of the City commercially alone is unthinkable!
BK & LW, you both better be doing the right thing for our club as you will be held accountable and responsible for the failings ahead if we move to Kirkby.
I am not in favour or support a move to Kirkby as I feel this will be a complete and utter disaster; moving out of the city boundary and allowing them twats "the freedom of the city" will be a huge deciding factor for many future generations of potential Evertonians; my one year old son included!
The one point that sticks in my mind is the lack of evidence of outside activity regarding potential investors during this recent "boom period" the City is going through; despite us needing urgently a new stadium even that shouldn’t put off some of the interested billionaires banging on other (smaller & lesser supported clubs) as opposed to ours. Lets face it, we are sleeping giant, surely?
Something stinks here and we are being kept in the dark; the Tesco connection is IMO the problem and neither BK or KW are aware of the long term disaster’s ahead. Sir TL doesn’t give a fcuk about EFC; he wants the Goodison footprint to build a new Tesco’s on and he will build another Tesco on our proposed new ground in Kirkby. Great business if you can get it; but what other huge, established long term businesses are moving out of the City boundaries during what is at this moment in time the economic boom the City has never seen before in it’s 800 year history (Capital of Culture etc). A move out of the City commercially alone is unthinkable!
BK & LW, you both better be doing the right thing for our club as you will be held accountable and responsible for the failings ahead if we move to Kirkby.
Well done Marko ,no standing on a orange box shouting against this crime of the century.Just ask yourself who is this stadium really for? Who gains and can sell up quicker with a nice profit once were sent to a store on the river alt whilst we loyal fans regret this deal for the rest of our footballing lives.We’v e just visited the Galaxy stadium yesterday when watching our team play on a outside pitch .I can’t help but think our new ’store’ will compare with Beckham’s new home.Its so sad that a fan from the boy’s pen even considers this move .DON"T DO IT BILL!Stand aside and let someone else have a real go mate.Any doubts Blues please don’t vote to go we WILL regret it.
Ian
Ian
Like it or not its about a clubs ’brand’ and appeal. The reds haveincreased their brand appeal by pushing out a great looking new stadium, that people, be they fans or visitors to the City will want to see. Our stadium is at best mediocre in a location that is not exactly joe publics ideal spot for a day out on the edge of a city. We just don’t get it. This is not a ’real’ long term view for this club. The arena on the Kings Dock looks far better then our ’Box’. Mr Wyness and co..its is about Location, Location, Location...wake up !!! Its about having an appeal to the public. Stop going on about the cash issue, we have no money ??..sort that out...thats what you are paid alot of money for. People dont want a mediocre stadium bought with Tesco Clubcard Vouchers....we want something we are proud of, that we will call home and that will offer us the day out we , the greatest supporters in the world deserve. So you want a vision...build on the bottom of Scottie road, within the ’loop’. Make it happen. Revitalise the area around it...and think what a statement that is going to make for people going up and down Scottie Road to and from the city....think of the visitors, the tourists, the corporates etc. Think ’appeal’ and wake up as we are sick of this. And sack the architects and get someone whos going to get this club back on the map. Moyes is trying to do it on the field, lets have the same off the field. Build a stadium that architecurally will make people go wow ! It doesnt need to be ab 80,000....just make it look state of the art...and not the box you have proposed for Kirkby...or should I say coffin
It is wrong to dismiss those who are against the move as emotional. There are some strong business issues based on location which have to be considered before agreeing to move to Kirkby.
In my opinion those against the stadium have wrongly focused on the issue of the city boundary. This is irreleventas a move to Spekewould be just as damaging. The ideal location is the inner city or close to the city centre.
At the last countwe had the second largest percentage of supporters walking to the ground. Has the club done any work to establish the effects of changing the habits of these supporters?
It is apparent that a split is developing between those supporters who live outside the cityand drive to the game and those based in the city who walk whose match day experience will be most altered.
Have they taken into account the risk of losing masses of core support by taking the club away from the city centreto a peripheral location? Bolton had 50,413 against us in 1977, they are now riding high in the Premiership but can’t get 22,000 for a local derby against Blackburn.
At present neither Merseyside club has a locational advantage. What work has been done to establish the effects of the club moving to the north east corner of the city as opposed to remaining in the inner city or moving to a site nearer to the city centre?
There is a need to have a physical presence in the city because for future generations we will be out of site out of mind. there is a real possibility of the club becomming anouther Tranmere Rovers drawing its support predominently from East Merseyside.
If Bill Kenwright was in charge of the Empire Theatre would he see it as good buseness to move it to Kirkby? I guess not Graham, The Paddock
In my opinion those against the stadium have wrongly focused on the issue of the city boundary. This is irreleventas a move to Spekewould be just as damaging. The ideal location is the inner city or close to the city centre.
At the last countwe had the second largest percentage of supporters walking to the ground. Has the club done any work to establish the effects of changing the habits of these supporters?
It is apparent that a split is developing between those supporters who live outside the cityand drive to the game and those based in the city who walk whose match day experience will be most altered.
Have they taken into account the risk of losing masses of core support by taking the club away from the city centreto a peripheral location? Bolton had 50,413 against us in 1977, they are now riding high in the Premiership but can’t get 22,000 for a local derby against Blackburn.
At present neither Merseyside club has a locational advantage. What work has been done to establish the effects of the club moving to the north east corner of the city as opposed to remaining in the inner city or moving to a site nearer to the city centre?
There is a need to have a physical presence in the city because for future generations we will be out of site out of mind. there is a real possibility of the club becomming anouther Tranmere Rovers drawing its support predominently from East Merseyside.
If Bill Kenwright was in charge of the Empire Theatre would he see it as good buseness to move it to Kirkby? I guess not Graham, The Paddock
How come there are so many business experts on these forums? I suspect a lot of the crap put on here is by the KEIOC mob, the same lot who showed vision of football hooligans to kirkby residents. Fear creates division - great tactic, you may get your wish and get a ’no’ vote, and watch teams like wigan man city and bolton outbid us year after year until we drop to the championship. Call yourself evertonians? You’re havin a laugh!
bluedownunder...
We are being asked to vote on something which will affect the club for the next 100 years.
The financial information presented by the club so far does not stack up.
Many Evertonians are involved in running businesses, and are more than capable of analysing data.
You should read all opinion and make your mind up which sounds more credible.
If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
We are being asked to vote on something which will affect the club for the next 100 years.
The financial information presented by the club so far does not stack up.
Many Evertonians are involved in running businesses, and are more than capable of analysing data.
You should read all opinion and make your mind up which sounds more credible.
If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
This "Kirkby isn’t the right place" attitude is a complete red herring. No matter where EFC’s new ground is built, it will be surrounded by a supporting commercial development.
The match day experience will never be the same no matter where the stadium is placed. There will be no Victorian pubs or street corner chippies. There will be shops, restaurants, bars and the Stadium. You might as well be outside any modern European stadium. So stop being snobbish about Kirkby because it wont’t exist in it’s present form. At least the bit supporters see won’t. Tesco with all their commercial accumen will not invest over £400 million into a wasteland.
The match day experience will never be the same no matter where the stadium is placed. There will be no Victorian pubs or street corner chippies. There will be shops, restaurants, bars and the Stadium. You might as well be outside any modern European stadium. So stop being snobbish about Kirkby because it wont’t exist in it’s present form. At least the bit supporters see won’t. Tesco with all their commercial accumen will not invest over £400 million into a wasteland.
I was brought up in Kirkby and don’t like some of the derogoratory things people have been saying about what is now quite a nice place (unlike when i grew up there!).
As much as it would be fantastic for Kirkby to have this move I have to agree with some of the comments regarding visibility...not the comments on the corporate/hospitality side of things as Kirkby has one of the biggest industrial estates in europe (many businesses!).
Our club needs this Scottie Rd site more than you can imagine, this is a place where visitors to the city will see a (hopefully) fantastic looking stadium as they are walking around and want to visit out of curiousity..I cannot tell you how important this is. The links to the loop are fantastic by train/road and we would be returning to our spiritual home.
The electorate (I am not one) must vote NO to Kirkby and they all fans must put pressure on LCC by whatever means to grant us the loop site..many voices united can make a difference...lets get this Kirkby thing out of the way and make our voices heard. And by the way I am not part of the KEIOC, just a very very concerned Blue.
As much as it would be fantastic for Kirkby to have this move I have to agree with some of the comments regarding visibility...not the comments on the corporate/hospitality side of things as Kirkby has one of the biggest industrial estates in europe (many businesses!).
Our club needs this Scottie Rd site more than you can imagine, this is a place where visitors to the city will see a (hopefully) fantastic looking stadium as they are walking around and want to visit out of curiousity..I cannot tell you how important this is. The links to the loop are fantastic by train/road and we would be returning to our spiritual home.
The electorate (I am not one) must vote NO to Kirkby and they all fans must put pressure on LCC by whatever means to grant us the loop site..many voices united can make a difference...lets get this Kirkby thing out of the way and make our voices heard. And by the way I am not part of the KEIOC, just a very very concerned Blue.
The problem i have is that a lot of people who are dead against this move to kirkby are basing their opposition on supposed ’business acumen’ grounds, implying the board at everton are incompetent...think on this for a moment - they are competing in an un-level playing arena (the EPL) and have kept/made EFC solvent for a number of years, are proposing a move to a site in a fast growing ’growth-corridor’ 4 MILES from the current location, with a state-of-the-art stadium (i choose to have faith that they wouldn’t commission a rubbish stadium - why would they do that ffs) and these same people who complain about the evil tesco are happy to embrace bestway! and remarks like "the financial information presented by the club so far does not stack up"
is a cop-out, why on earth doesn’t it stack up? and how can you know you have all the data, unless you are on the board which i am sure most people on these forums are not.
is a cop-out, why on earth doesn’t it stack up? and how can you know you have all the data, unless you are on the board which i am sure most people on these forums are not.
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1 Posted 24/07/2007 at 12:35:30
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