I was one of the few people on this site who thought that Everton needed to make more signings rather than this bollocks of ?I?d be happy if the transfer window ended tomorrow?. It seems to me we could end up with exactly the same problem that we?ve had for the last 3 seasons that we start late then right at the end of the season we wither and become tired.
For the last 3 seasons, contrary to many people?s beliefs, I believe we?ve underachieved. In 2007-08 Everton had an excellent chance to finish 4th but unfortunately, due to losing 2 important games against Liverpool and poor refereeing decisions, our challenge fizzled out.
In 2008-09 many supporters would have said that we had a successful season; again, I believe that, if we hadn?t wasted so many opportunities to win games, challenging a poor Arsenal team we?d've had a decent chance.
The 2009-10 season was dominated by unfortunate factors such as Destination Kirkby, Lescott and our injury list. I believe that, despite all our injuries, we still underachieved and I didn?t blame our finish on early home games against Wolves and Stoke but on four key games:
- The first game was the away game against Liverpool. Everton were rejuvenated by the recent return of many of our long-term injuries and we were playing a poor Liverpool team and for once Everton supporters believed we had a chance but we were to be wrong: because of useless tactics and poor goalkeeping, we lost.
- Then we engineered rousing victories against Chelsea and Manchester United only to be outdone by two defeats against Spurs and Sporting Lisbon where, in both games, we should have done far better.
- Then we beat Hull 5-1, which flattered Hull, only to then mess it up against Birmingham after losing a 2-0 lead when we were cruising the game.
- Then we beat both Bolton and Manchester City and us the deluded supporters thought we?d learnt from our mistakes; oh how wrong we were...
Everton are a decent team and we had the chance to build off our good from towards the end of last season by strengthening the team; instead, we keep to the same unsuccessful rigid tactics. Our views that Arteta is a genius Osman is shite ramblings after most matches are irrelevant of what happened on the pitch and suggest that, like Moyes, we accept that players will consistently under perform.
In my opinion, this transfer window, Everton had the chance to rid the club of certain players and bring in some real quality. Now, I accept many of you will disagree with me but I think we should've sold quite a few of our players:
- Pienaar to me still looks gutted that he never got his move but nevertheless we?re stuck with him.
- Despite Bily?s wonder goals he still seems to disappear in games with his fellow phantoms Saha and Cahill.
- Fellaini is a miserable bastard who seems to be constantly in a mood, even when he scores.
- Arteta is a player I quite like but has never been the same since his injury.
- Now I get to the antichrist that is Leon Osman. Leon Osman is a decent enough player and can be an excellent player on his day but too often he seems to not really know what he?s doing and seems to run away from the ball in most games. Either way the jury will remain how long can Everton keep our so-called greatest team since the 80s.
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1 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:59:32
It takes time to get players to gel together into a team... well certainly under Moyes anyway. Some other managers seem to make a quicker job of it, but I'm sure that's because they are not hamstring by his negative ultra-cautious demeanour. Yet you would have him rip apart the culmination of his best work to date?
At least you don't go to the next logical stage of this nonsense and list a host of great non-Everton players you would have bought in in their places. Mind you, that would have given us a good laugh.
I try not to be the first on a thread but I felt I could not let such a ludicrous article through without passing comment. Putting any of the players you list ? aye, even Osman ? on the transfer list back in July would have gone against everything Moyes has been trying to do here these past 8½ years.
In fact, I would go as far as to agree with the message coming out of the club: we have a great squad of players and we don't need to make any more signings. We just need the manager to utilize them in the right way, and to inspire them with the confidence and self-belief to produce ? in EVERY game ? not just against League One opposition.
2 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:19:56
3 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:22:34
At least we are not thinking of survival so much as we used to, but we are still unable to compete 'moneywise' with half the sides in the premier.
The investment that BK is searching for is still a figment of most supporters imagination and a useful way to explain our lack of transfer funds.... I don't fully accept that we are as 'broke' as some people readily take as a reason... we found money for Fellaini at the 11th hour when a fans revolt was in the offing and our bench was like a nursery.
Now we are seemingly in a better position BK has shelved any spending of money as the uprising has subsided for the time being.
DM now has a better contract deal and toes the party line!!!!
He has the safest managerial post in the league... no ambition so no blame!!
4 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:53:15
Who to Chris..?
5 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:44:55
Personally, I think the idea of selling Arteta, Fellaini and the (according to Chris Butler) 'phantom' Cahill - that'll be the fifty odd goal, first player since W.R.Dean to score in 3 Merseyside Derbys phantom then - and starting the team building process all over again is nigh on insane. Give them a chance and this squad can make us proud again.
I don't know about Felllaini being miserable Chris, but pot, kettle, black?
6 Posted 26/08/2010 at 16:58:42
7 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:01:41
We have a pretty open policy to publishing stuff from anyone who appears to be an Evertonian and who has the basic ability to convey some kind of half-reasonable delivery of their views by the written word.
But to me, Chris is something else. I'm not quite sure what, but I don't agree at all with Tony ? he's not a wind-up; if you look back over his contributions to this site, the above is entirely consistent... and yet still bizarre.
By our own policy, we should respect diverse views... but this stuff from Chris Butler is too wacky by far. We probably should not publish it; to be brutally honest, I don't think it would be any great loss.
8 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:01:03
9 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:08:35
No, I won't have that. He's a whack-job ? I think he has demonstrated that only too well ? but there is no indication that he is a kopite... far from it, in fact.
That's poor from you, Kevin. Calling fellow Evertonians 'kopites' is one thing I will not tolerate, no matter how fucked up they are. You get away with it this time coz you did it so cleverly!
10 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:37:00
We are frustrated and disappointed at the poor start.
I threw my bagel across the kitchen on Saturday watching online.
Let's all take three deep breaths......................................
.................. and beat the shit out of Villa on Sunday!
11 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:23:31
Genuine enough for me.
The Fellaini stuff a bit off the wall in my opinion, but the other stuff has certainly been voiced by others.
We're a broad church can't see why Chris is being called.
12 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:53:32
Chris in #8: "Nowhere in the article did I say that we should sell those players."
Chris, you are showing signs of serious mental fucked-up-ness... get a fucking grip, lad, or I will pull the plug.
13 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:54:59
It is beyond me how the Board can expect miraculous improvements year on year from our the manager, when rival managers get to spend significant sums on improving their squads. However, we are where we are, so, setting aside the vexed question of money, what?s the problem?
I wonder whether our inconsistent performances might be owing to a lack of adaptabilty. We seem unable to change our approach or tactics when other teams set out their stall to frustrate us, or, for whatever reason, our Plan A isn?t working. Has the ?Kirby approach? trickled down onto the field, i.e. there?s no Plan B.
14 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:43:24
Err, yes you did. You say "we should've sold quite a few of our players: .." and go on to name Pienaar, Bilyagethimoff, Fellaini, Arteta and Osman.
Do you sleep write or something? Maybe get taken over by some malevolent, maniacal, spirit who proceeds to post crackpot suggestions in your name? Then wake up totally oblivious to the wacky shit you've just written
15 Posted 26/08/2010 at 17:52:32
16 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:02:40
Now going back to lunatic mode ? is it lunacy to suggest that we maybe try and sell Yakubu and Yobo to fund the signing of a quality player after yesterday's comments by Kenwright?
17 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:02:24
"Kopite," jibe duly retracted!!
I may be over-sensitive (and happy to be corrected) but it seems he has referenced Liverpool in a number of posts/articles in the past; however my nagging feeling won't stand up in court, so apologies to Chris for the sheer indignity of being labelled "Kopite!"
18 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:08:59
19 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:20:41
In my limited experience, there are Evertonians who hate Liverpool with the required degree of passion, but who can't help pointing to them in areas where they are perceived to be better than us. My sense is that's all Chris is guilty of there; I tend to agree with your view, though: an over-preoccupation with Liverpool is definitely unhealthy. But we're straying off topic a bit.
As is Chris. God, it's like herding cats!
Chris, you clearly said "I think we should have sold quite a few of our players" and then you went on to list most of our best players. Then you denied it... That, lad, is the path to lunacy... no, it suggests you're already there.
Then you come back claiming you were actually talking about Yobo!!! And then you throw in Yakubu for good measure.... Un-fucking-believable!
Now, I'm well known for my Job-like patience (!) but you are seriously trying it on. The "sleep-writer" tag is starting to look like the best bet in town...
20 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:19:05
NOWHERE in the article do you mention Yobo!
I'm more than happy to take back the Kopite reference, but you're now re-inventing what you wrote! You are making no sense whatsoever!
You said we should have sold Pienaar, Bily Fellaini & Arteta!
But I actually agree with you on Osman...
21 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:03:33
"I think we should've sold quite a few of our players:"
NB - note the colon (i.e. by that I mean the following...)
Then a list -
Fellaini (the miserable bastard! - even when he scores)
"I didn't say we should sell our best players. I was meaning the likes of Yobo."
Sorry Chris but you can't expect people to take you seriously when you just contradict yourself.
And Fellaini a miserable bastard? What a great reason to sell him!
22 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:10:08
23 Posted 26/08/2010 at 21:54:34
This consistent utter nonsense is making a mockery of a site like yours.
24 Posted 26/08/2010 at 22:35:18
Chris, you couldn't have gone more left of field than Ronnie Goodlass or Dave Thomas with those comments.
25 Posted 26/08/2010 at 22:40:33
Think I will just back off an leave yous to it :D
Play nice now, children!
26 Posted 26/08/2010 at 22:43:59
A line has to be drawn somewhere in terms of what we post and what we don't. We do want to maintain a good standard of discussion, yet we are still able to publish at least 99% of what we receive ? which says volumes about all you guys who are providing posts and articles. Mr Butler has demonstrated today that he is probably worthy of inclusion in the 1% rejects pile.
As for "making a mockery"... come on ? it's one article. I don't see that it impinges in any way on the wealth of material contained elsewhere on this site. Our editorial policy needs to be tested now and again.. and perhaps it failed this time.
But we shall learn from our mistakes and do better next time!
27 Posted 26/08/2010 at 23:25:40
28 Posted 26/08/2010 at 23:47:21
29 Posted 26/08/2010 at 23:47:21
30 Posted 27/08/2010 at 00:09:12
31 Posted 27/08/2010 at 00:10:57
32 Posted 27/08/2010 at 00:21:41
Do send it, but sign it from a Mr Capello.
33 Posted 26/08/2010 at 23:20:23
Selling because they don't get an A score every mach is idiotic.
That is the mistake Liverpool made, and that I believe is the reason they haven't gotten success in the league. Even though they have spent a whole lot of cash, they have bought the wrong team players ? or sold them too early. Chelsea and Man Utd has a steady base of players.
34 Posted 27/08/2010 at 00:54:23
Still got time... DM and BK... please do what you need to do...
35 Posted 27/08/2010 at 01:25:04
Sorry... what I meant was with pace, oppo LEFT back and not right back..."
It's 8am in Malaysia... what do you expect :)
36 Posted 27/08/2010 at 01:52:52
37 Posted 27/08/2010 at 03:16:03
38 Posted 27/08/2010 at 08:12:11
From what I can see, the very worst crime Chris is guilty of, is poor presentation of his argument.
Not everybody has the literate skills sit down and just knock out an article using perfect punctuation, grammar and presentation to get their points across ? trust me on that one.
It's obvious from his subsequent comments that Chris feels his points have been misunderstood. Having read the article again, I don't believe he does want to sell our best players. The "list" was meant to be a separate issue... and let's be fair here, a lot of what he says is factual.
This guy watches all the games, he is a passionate Evertonian, passionate enough to take the time out to put these articles together, if his submissions are rejected, fair enough, but he does not deserve the battering he has taken here.
39 Posted 27/08/2010 at 10:21:27
40 Posted 27/08/2010 at 11:39:53
If its trophies you expect us to win with this squad and the money we have spent, please point me in the direction of a source of statistics where we can see how many different PL clubs have won domestic and European honours during DM's reign, and lets assess their NET transfer spend compared to ours.
If its league placings you think we have underachieved on, do you know a source where we can find statistics showing points per net transfer spend. On such a basis, where do you think should Everton be to "achieve", top 2 or 3?
Rather than blithely and subjectively banging your drum on underachievement, it would be nice to have some stats to back this up.
And if "underachievement" is down to a poor style of football, lets see some stats on our completed pass ratio or such like versus other teams, again adjusting for financial investment in the form of net transfer spend.
Perhaps as Editor of a half decent site this is within your give?
41 Posted 27/08/2010 at 12:25:57
42 Posted 27/08/2010 at 12:32:06
Eugene #27 .. cracked me up!!
Oh and by the way Chris... I refer you to my "Our much Vaunted Midfield" for my take on Fellaini... Lunacy!
43 Posted 27/08/2010 at 13:16:03
44 Posted 27/08/2010 at 13:27:54
Pienaar - Player of the Year My Arse
Rodwell - Only the Good sold Young
Osman & Hibbo - The Spine of My Team
Anichebe - A Banjo and This Cows Arse - My Struggle from 10 yards
45 Posted 27/08/2010 at 13:43:35
I'll have a go.
We underachieve by playing utterly shit football with a good collection of players. It's not something that can be backed up by stats, so I doubt you'll accept it.
But for me, it's a pretty good indication of underachievement.
46 Posted 27/08/2010 at 14:00:55
47 Posted 27/08/2010 at 15:46:03
What Cairan said. End of.
48 Posted 27/08/2010 at 15:50:54
Suddenly, comments and posts seem to be a lot more upbeat... which is fantastic! Well done.
From where I am, this IS our best squad for 20 odd years, and getting rid of the core is a ridiculous statement.
49 Posted 27/08/2010 at 15:54:24
Now I fully understand why many people misunderstood my articles as most of them are done in a hurry. Frankly I think that it could be argued about all postings that we can talk, moan, shout, scream about Everton or TW until we get arthiritis but I doubt any of the things we write will ever come into frutition.
But again if you misunderstood the article, fine, my fault but either way like the devils advocate for a poorly written article seems a bit unjust on a site where other supporters have suggested selling players to fund a stadium.
50 Posted 27/08/2010 at 16:09:18
Stephen Kenny. Ultimately opinions are like arseholes which is the repeated Rhetoric not different to the people who after beating Man United at Wembley started having a rant at James Vaughan. Fortunately for many supporters none of my views like yours are listened to and are again opinions.
As far as I'm aware, the only other article I've been crucified for was one about the derby when again supporters misunderstood and didn't bother to read the article properly. When I said "The Media blames Everton supporters for singing songs about Gerrards baby and Hillsbrough". I was quoting a Sunday times review on the Merseyside Derby in 2008 not my opinion. But nevetherless despite making this clear supporters still hounded me.
The other articles I have written were about standing where I felt the majority of people agreed with me. The only other one I have been crucified was for the Do You Trust Moyes? article. Again I'm not the only one who worries about Moyes commitment to Everton, nor his tactics, yet I bore the brunt of the abuse.
51 Posted 27/08/2010 at 16:26:51
1) Don't write in a hurry over your lunch hour.
2) Read it through as if you had never seen it before, and ask yourself "Does this actually make any sense?".
3) Look up "Devil's Advocate" and make sure you understand what it means before you use it.
And here's the kicker:
4) If you think posting your views on here is pointless... DON'T POST!
52 Posted 27/08/2010 at 18:21:41
Well-said and good to see you back in here.
53 Posted 27/08/2010 at 19:33:59
Was he a fake writer that the Eds made up to start a thread?
Tony Harris, come on in!!!
54 Posted 27/08/2010 at 19:36:32
As to the first question, he posted something minor and non-controversial a few weeks back that went largely unnoticed.
As to the second.. Why? Why would we need to invent a persona?
[Perhaps we invented you and you don't really exist at all... how would that make you feel, eh?]
55 Posted 27/08/2010 at 20:36:09
My grandad had a pub in Liverpool. The thread reminds me of some of the conversations which used to take place during chucking out time.
56 Posted 27/08/2010 at 21:56:42
Interesting viewpoint Ciaran and Michael. If this is how you define underachieving, would you consider Inter Milan to have underachieved last year? Perhaps Mourinho's Chelsea? Red Star Belgrade in 1991? Greece in 2004? England in 1990? All undoubtedly "good collections of players" (yes even the Greeks!) but didn't exactly thrill with their football. Yet I don't think any of them underacheieved.
I don't disagree that our style of play could be better at times but to describe it as "utterly shite" is a stretch. As always on here, it's fascinating to see the broad spectrum of opinions and expectations. Long may it continue!
57 Posted 27/08/2010 at 22:46:51
A view held wide the broad spectrum of commentators and fans of all clubs.
58 Posted 27/08/2010 at 22:50:56
A view held widely by the broad spectrum of commentators and fans of all clubs.
59 Posted 27/08/2010 at 23:07:24
They don't watch us religiously. Only we do that. ergo...
Essentially we've over-acheived in terms of our league placings... but there's a very cogent argument, backed up by recorded visual evidence that we underachieved at playing football.
To take it to its basic level... I would say that losing to Blackburn as meekly as we did, with our best team in 20 years is a clear indication of underachievement. Wouldn't you?
It may be transient... [hopefully!] ? but it's still aiming high and hitting low.
60 Posted 28/08/2010 at 01:06:17
My point about over-achievement, was with squads containing players who were nowhere near as good as we've got now.
So even though you say "we underachieved at playing football" as opposed to results, we didn't have the players then who could do much more than close the opposition down, be well-organised, and work hard for each other. Then nick a 1-0 lead and try to defend it. And a lot of the time it worked.
Different times of course, and much more is expected of today's squad.
61 Posted 28/08/2010 at 02:20:17
Surely the football has to have been effective to achieve the good league position?
62 Posted 28/08/2010 at 21:01:20
How long have we been watching Everton to realise that nothing is ever simple? Our views after all don't matter how good or bad they are. I won't be posting in a hurry any time soon but simply I feel that certain posters get abused for their opinions yet, they are exactly that ? opinions.
I don't really care whether somebody posted for Hibbert to play up front ? it's never going to happen, so I really don't see the point arguing.
I've given up on our singing area attempts because the club doesn't listen.
I come on here to read the excellent match reports and to read about the facts and the opinions that you brillaintly put on this site. Because I've given up watching Everton at GP, I like to read about people's truthful opinions on tactics ? not ridiculous transfer rumours or crazy optimism.
I also think that that there has been plenty of awful articles far more bizarre than mine that seemed to have gone under the radar of supporters. I suggest that certain posters realise our views have no bearing on the club before stigmatising me with the worst insult "A Kopite".
63 Posted 28/08/2010 at 21:40:28
"I was simply pointing out you could get an interview with Rooney saying ... blah, blah."
WTF? In this entire thread, you have NEVER mentioned Rooney. In this entire thread, you have NEVER talked about getting an interview with anybody!!! What on EARTH is that in reference to???
See, it's shit like that you throw into every post that just does my head in. Look, the way these threads work is you're supposed to make some point and then bat it around, amplify it, beat it to shreds... pretty much anything goes...
EXCEPT throwing in new shit that is totally off the wall. That doesn't do anybody any good, but unfortunately, it's classic Chris Butler.
And you've been going on and on claiming that "our views don't matter", and down-talking the entire idea of thread-based Everton discussion on this website. Sorry, but I don't accept that at all.
You may not get the results YOU personally have looked for but that's because you've been naieve to the point of it becoming a bit ridiculous ? the whole standing thing is a case in point.
On that topic, I gave you air ? plenty of it ? to see where it might go, as you seemed so into the whole thing... but I was pretty confident it would go absolutely nowhere. It never stood a chance.
And now what? After all that effort and bluster, you've given up watching Everton at GP!!! Simply astounding...
You really are the most bizarre fan who contributes here. You have taken over that mantle from one Richard Dodd... and that's quite an achievement. And yet you think people have misunderstood you and slammed you unjustly? Far from it, Chris, sadly I think all the stuff leveled at you is because of your own failings when presenting points you believe in enough to write in about.
Yes, you expose yourself to ridicule ? we all do... to the extent that we talk shite. I usually prevent most of the obvious shite from being posted (except my own, of course!); consider yourself lucky or unlucky [delete as appropriate] that the stuff you have written has been posted. It won't be again unless it is pretty much 100% flawless.
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