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Is Moyes Up to It?

By Alan Clarke :  02/09/2010 :  Comments (124) :
After yet another disappointing transfer window, most of us are bound to start pointing the finger of blame towards the Everton Chairman, Bill Kenwright. I'm no fan of his but I don't think Moyes should get off scott free.

Everyone knows the situation at our club ? we're skint and we operate a sell-to-buy policy. That policy is not a lot different to most other clubs. In an ideal world, I'd love someone to bankroll us and give Moyes an open chequebook but Everton's finances are what they are and I'm getting sick to death of Moyes crying poverty all the time.

Our team lacks balance and it currently lacks a goalscorer. We've allowed a decent centre-half to go out on loan, not recouping any money for him, and we've an unhappy striker who has a good goalscoring record not even making the bench. Moyes has stockpiled central midfielders and central defenders and still our team has no width. We have players surplus to requirement and no balance in the team.

So does Moyes have any clue about how to operate in the transfer market? Is it right that Moyes blames lack of finances all the time while we have to watch him play Osman, Bily or Rodwell on the right wing?

How wise a purchase was Bilyaletdinov in the first place? I'm not questioning whether he's good enough but whether he was needed. He's another player who apparently plays best centrally.

How wise a purchase was Heitinga? He's obviously a good player but last summer we were crying out for a pacey winger and a front man, so why spend £6.5 million on another central defender? Moyes does not seem to have any sense of priority over which areas of the team need strengthening.

This summer, Moyes has knocked back a £6 million bid for Yakubu, whose previous record is good but after suffering a serious injury, he has not done anything since to justify why he'd be worth more than £6 million. He's not even bothered to regain his fitness. So now we're left with an unhappy striker who is a massive gamble, 20-games-a-season Saha... and Beckford. Seriously, how many goals do you think those three will score this season? And then you've got Moyes moaning about our lack of goals!

Moyes has also just let Yobo leave pretty much on a free. Again how wise was this considering he knocked back a £14 million bid from Arsenal for Jagielka? Is there a big difference between those two players?

A lot of the crticisms aimed at Yobo could also be levelled at Jagielka. They're both pacey, they're both good tacklers and both have had good runs in the team. Yobo's defensive record deserves even more recognition bearing in mind he spent time in front of Richard Wright. They both like to hoof it are both error-prone. Yobo gave that awful pass to Rooney but we all saw Jags fall on his arse on Sunday when Villa broke and we all remember that awful pass to Ashley Young that lost us that infamous game at home to Villa. I think most of us agree anyway that Heitinga should be our first choice central defender when Moyes likes to play with a left-footed centre-half.

Ask yourselves, would you have kept Yobo and sacrificed Yakubu and Jagielka to raise £20 million? If we'd have lost those two, kept Yobo and bought a striker and a right winger (Donovan), would you have been unhappy? I think we'd be in a far better position now...

I think ultimately Moyes's stubbornness and inability to operate effectively in the transfer market will cost us any real hope of a top 6 finish. It is not Kenwright's fault that we still have Osman and Hibbert as first choice picks in our team.

Reader Comments

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Joseph Strumm
1   Posted 01/09/2010 at 20:45:10

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We all saw the balance we got from having Donovan on the right for part of last season. SuperDave has had all summer to bring someone in to restore the balance to his one dimensional squad, yet has failed to act and we are now left putting square pegs in round holes.

He doesn't know what his best side is and has failed to instill a winning desire in his players, they look to me like they couldn't give two fucks when we lose... it's all too easy for players and manager to pick up their mega-wages and continue to aspire to mediocrity. My patience is close to breaking point.

We're now stuck with too many players who are past their best yet have secured long-term deals and we have Pienaar, who should've been shown the door in the summer at a cut price, now able to sign for Harry the twat in January and leave for nothing at the end of the season.

This should be DMs last season for me, we're now stuck in a rut and some fans seem to be scared to say we want more and ask for a more progressive attack-minded coach. The clock's ticking, Davie, and there's a lot of frustrated, disillusioned fans who've had enough.

Stop cosying up to Billy Bull and demand more 'cos it's just not good enough.

Jamie Tulacz
2   Posted 02/09/2010 at 14:44:00

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The Guardian are reporting that we were prepared to let the Yak go to West Ham for just £5m, however the move didn't go through due to their lack of finances.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/sep/01/west-ham-yakubu-ayegbeni-marc-wilson

Interesting that we were prepared to deplete our squad even further for such a low price, whilst leaving us very little time to sign a much needed striking replacement.

Norman Merrill
3   Posted 02/09/2010 at 14:37:23

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Alan, I think you have stirred up a hornets nest with some of your views?
My gripe is with the right side of midfield, and I cannot believe that Moyes has not addressed this problem.
We have had three different players in the league games so far, why he has not sorted the problem out is anybodys guess.
Lee Hind
4   Posted 02/09/2010 at 14:51:26

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Moyes said at the start of the summer the priority was tying those we had to long term deals - we even took out extra finance to make that happen. I don't see how it comes as a surprise that we didn't shell out loads of money...

This article also sums up the problem of having armchair managers with quotes such as:

"How wise a purchase was Heitinga? He's obviously a good player but last summer we were crying out for a pacey winger and a front man, so why spend £6.5 million on another central defender?"

Followed by quotes like:

"I think most of us agree anyway that Heitinga should be our first choice central defender when Moyes likes to play with a left-footed centre-half."

He was a wise purchase because we all agree that he's the best ball playing centre half we have.... does it really come as such a shock that a defence-first manager like Moyes improved his, er, defence?!?!

In addition, I don't know how many times the Donovan purchase is going to be fraught over and analysed. A blind man can see that MLS were never going to let him go ? didn't matter what we offered really, they want him there for their Championship Game or whatever they call it ? which is why we'll get him back in January.
Nick Wall
5   Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:14:40

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Jamie, I read the Guardian article too, but I don't believe for a minute that we would have let the Yak go for a penny under £8m. The club have been very consistent in letting it be known that we wouldn't let him go unless we recouped most of the money that we paid for him.
Nick Entwistle
6   Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:10:22

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How many quality wingers are out there who can be bought by our finances? The traditional winger is as some say extinct so a Donovan etc will cost big bucks.

Heitinger was a class buy. Given that we don't have a large squad and centre back cover was thin when Lescott left he was a solid purchase. One who could fill in midfield also.

I'm not in favour of selling your main men to bring in new, so no, selling Jags and Yakubu and keeping Yobo is full of pitfalls. Don't want to end up with a team of replacements which by your thinking Bily would fall into, and Heitinger and Distin due to the lescot sale...

And the last thing we need are more strikers!

To sum up my ramble, Donovan and any other purchase this window would have been a luxury buy and not needed in our financial position. Beneficial yes, but not needed. This is an era of make do and mend after all!
Paddy Francis
7   Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:19:00

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I agree that we have made the mistake in recent seasons of spending our limited budget upgrading in positions in which we were already relatively strong.

This is in no way a criticism of the players such as Bily, Heitinga nor even Felliani, but if could explain it in very basic terms, we had cover at centre back with 3 players who may be described at least as 6.5/10 - so adding Heitinga (an 8/10 player) only gives us value on our money of a 1.5 improvement.

In contrast, I would say that in attack, we have Saha who, partly because of his injury record, cannot be regarded as better than 7/10 by Premier League standards. All our other options are significantly worse. Accordingly, any investment in a striker, even if objectively a "worse" player than Heitinga would have been money comparatively well spent as we would have got more of an upgrade on our squad.

Andrew Fair
8   Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:46:08

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Yea moyes is crap in the market. Arteta, Cahill, Lescott, Saha all for under ten million. He said he wanted the big players to stay and he would be happy, well he has done that and i bet he's extremely happy apart from the first three results. It will get better and we will be pushin for a cup/ europe but people will still moan. Never mind thats what alot of fans on this site do
Ciarán McGlone
9   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:10:45

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"And we all remember that awful pass to Ashley Young that lost us that infamous game at home to Villa. "
----------------

Sure he did it again last weekend!

Good article... I don't really have anything to add.
David Thomas
10   Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:59:23

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Alan,

You say a "striker who has a good goalscoring record not even making the bench." I presume you are talking about the Yak? So not involving the Yak is one of your reasons for asking "is Moyes up to it" (Yak was injured for the huddersfield and villa games).
However, you then go to say "he has not done anything since to justify why he'd be worth more than £6 million. He's not even bothered to regain his fitness. So now we're left with an unhappy striker who is a massive gamble".

Also, as Lee said you seem the question the signing of Heitinga and then suggest he is our best defender.

You seem to be having a go at Moyes for not involving the Yak and then on the other hand suggesting the Yak is unfit and not worth a place.
Brendan McLaughlin
11   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:18:51

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Alan
You point out that we knocked back 14 million for Jagielka and then effectively let Yobo go on a free. You then have to ask is there a big difference between these two players? Hmmmm...let me think!
Phil Bellis
12   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:19:20

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Y, dunno, N, possibly, Y, not sure, 14, probably, think so, Y, tough one, N
in no particular order
Chris Butler
13   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:15:48

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Donavan was an excellent player and I believe, had he stayed, he and we would've became far better and maybe finished higher. The problem is with Everton our play is slow and laboured side to side all the time. We need to be far more direct.

Going back to the original point, no he isn't up to it as he's not going to stay for much longer unless Everton receive some serious investment and he has enough money to spend. Moyes is capable of playing only one style and struggles to identify problems and change them. Saha shouldn't be playing on his own up front and he doesn't get any support.

The main weakness Moyes has is his inability to win big games. He has a useless record against Liverpool despite Moyesy supposedly being better than him well not if you read their head to head stats except the Clattenburg fiasco.

As Everton don't have any money I'd say we can rule out Sven. If I had the choice of a new manager, I'd choose Martin Jol as he's been impressive wherever he's managed.

Andrew Ellams
14   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:24:44

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Nick Entwistle, we don't need more strikers, we need BETTER strikers. I'll be stunned if any of ours top 12 goals this season and even that may be pushing it.
Max Main
15   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:05:56

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I've decided against pointing out the contradictions in the article, so I'll just answer the question you raise, which crops up later in the article too.

So does Moyes have any clue as to how to operate in the transfer market?

Yeah. He does.

Arteta - £2m
Cahill - £1.5m
Lescott - bought for £5m, sold for £23m
Johnson - bought for £8.5m, sold for £10.5m
Tim Howard - £3m
Steven Pienaar - £2m
Jagielka - £4m, recently had bid of £14m rejected
Saha - free
Yobo - £4m, 7 years service, not bad
McFadden - bought for £1.25m, sold for £5m

So is he perfect? No (Jo). Is he better than most? Yes. But to answer the question, does he have a clue? He does.
Charles King
16   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:33:18

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"It", being the transformation from Premier League safety to contenders for silverware..........no, sadly he's not up to it.
Matthew Lovekin
17   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:33:08

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Alan, it's a bit of catch 22. Moyes has been excellent for Everton and made more good calls and decisions than bad ones. However, he is not perfect, none of us are.

His seemingly inability to change is definately a downside to his management. Why stick with regular players like Osman, Hibbert, Neville, Cahill, etc when we have far better players sitting on the bench like Coleman and Rodwell?

It's obvious Everton have to sell to buy but it seems he doesn't want to sell players. I hate to say it but he needs to be a bit more like Harry Redknapp and try wheeler-dealing. Why keep players when offered money like the Yakubu situation when you are not going to play them anyway?

Everyone at the club and all the fans know that right-midfield has been our problem position for a while now. Therefore why has he not tried to address this? He should have moved heaven and earth for Donovan this summer. As proved in the World Cup, Donovan is one of the most effective players in the world who was crying out to come to Goodison, but yet he may never grace our turf again now. Everton should have said name your price and then sold players like Yakubu, Osman, Yobo early enough to generate the money to buy him. Even if we still couldn't get Donovan, we should have gone for another winger with pace. McGeady went to Russia for £10m, we could have sold Yak and Yobo to get McGeady but yet again nothing happens and we are left with no winger yet again for another season.
Stephen Kenny
18   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:45:11

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I think Moyes see's Big Vic as the solution to our problem's on the right. He can be very good in this position on occassion, but is seemingly always injured.

Personally I would like to have seen Vaughan, Yobo and Bily go and the money spent on a good, young striker who is capable of scoring goal's, has pace and has a good injury record as our strikeforce is full to the brim of sicknotes.

I think his record as a talent spotter may be second only to Wenger, but his record as a wheeler dealer isn't that great. Probably because he obviously hates having to do this.
Phil Martin
19   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:49:01

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You crazy fools asking why Moyes hasn't signed a quality Right midfielder this summer need to stop sniffing glue.
How many quality players can you buy for £1M these days?
Or are you suggesting Moyes should've stripped the squad even bearer to raise enough funds?

Donavan wouldve been great, but the MLS aren't daft and probably demanded £12-15M for him. We can't even afford £1.5M. Who's fault is that?

Post #14 sumarises exactly how good Moyes is in the transfer market.

Bill K riding the coat tails of Moyes. FULLSTOP

Our most high profile signing was a freebie from a team who just got promoted from the third tier. Do you think Moyes wants to operate with these constraints? Or is he just trying to do the best with the hand he's been dealt.
Kevy Quinn
20   Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:49:45

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As much as I would like to argue with what you have wrote, I find myself agreeing with the majority of your piece.

I said on another thread about the loan of Yobo, can't understand it at all. Makes no sense and what is going on with Yakubu is baffling!

Where I would disagree is the bit about Jags/Yobo. As much as Jags tends to hoof it he's a great defender. If Moyes has the balls to play him and Jonny together I think it will bring the best out of Jags, as he can just pass it to JH and let him distribute it.

I think the reason why we bought JH last year was we were short on numbers with injuries and he can play in various positions (Moyesie's favourite type of player).
Carl Moulton
21   Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:02:29

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Everyone is skint. Moyes has done a great job in keeping all our top players at the club. I wish everyone would stop moaning and looking for the negatives and get behind the team. Have a look at Villa, two years on the trot they have sold the club's best players, imagine the shit Billy would get if he cashed in on say Jagielka last year and Arteta this.
James I'Anson
22   Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:03:25

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Not many managers could take a team from relegation candidates to european candidates with no money. Not a fucking penny.
But then again not many managers have to deal with chairman as bad as Bill Kenwright.
Only when Moyes is given funds to compete, can he be judged fairly.
Andy Crooks
23   Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:35:35

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Brendan, yes there is little difference between the players right now. At best Yobo was vastly superior. If David Moyes turned down anything approaching £14 million for Jags the it was utter mismanagement. Excellent article .Alan, David Moyes is stubborn and appears to have a self belief and a feeling of infallibility installed by a fawning chairman.
Mike McLean
24   Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:49:43

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James I'Anson ... completely agree.
Paul Roderick
25   Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:07:26

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Shaun Wright Phillips on loan would have been the ideal solution to our right hand side of midfield.
Andy Crooks
26   Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:01:12

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James, I think that the lack of funds has been a safety net for David Moyes. I think he is just the man to steady the ship but lacks the tactical imagination to move on. That is why I think that many Evertonians were appalled at the thought he might go to Villa. A fear of what might happen without safety first. We might be relegated, we might be Wednesday or even Portsmouth. Well, we wouldn't.

The negative attitude of the coach has somehow afflicted some of the supporters who are now happy to settle for mediocrity. Our motto should now be "well it could be worse you know". I prefer the original.

John McLoughlin
27   Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:03:06

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I beleive Moyes should have done more wheeling and dealing. But not with 1st team players. Osman, Yobo and maybe Billy if we got anything near what we paid for him. The problem is these players play in a few positions and Moyes loves versatile players. If we'd have sold these players we could have got close to 15 million to spend in the summer on the 2 areas of the team we are clearly lacking -right midfield and a striker. These though are 2 of the 3 hardest postitions to fill but it would have been nice to make an effort. Cant understand why we didnt try and snap up a left back to act as cover on a free or a loan.
Ray Roche
28   Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:44:04

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Ok, so some people on this thread say Moyes is crap. Can one of these people come up with a replacement for Moyes, someone who will improve our position (with no money) and who could have done the job Moyes has done since his arrival. I shall be interested to read the long list of candidates you provide. Come on, and please be realistic.
John Brennan
29   Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:38:48

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Jags is nowhere near as good a defender as Heitinga and if the offer Arsenal made was true (£14 mill)? I would have got rid of him. However, as we still have him, by the end of the season, he may have turned into a far more competent defender through the influence of Heitinga.

I thought Arteta was poor against Villa and both he and Saha need to show more effort and urgency very soon.

This squad should be good enough to finish no lower than 7th (because we don't have European games to worry about). Nevertheless, I know we are only 3 games in, but if we finish in a Europa League place and win either the League Cup or FA Cup, then I will regard that as success. No chance at all of a Champions League slot.

Good piece from you, Alan; thought provoking, and as usual I have failed to provoke my thoughts in the right direction. COYB

Jamie Tulacz
30   Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:59:32

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Agree 100% with what Max Main says (#15). Also could point out the big Fella, who was relatively unknown by most of us, and Heitinga as 2 more good Moyes signings. Think we'd have been foolish to let an experienced striker like the Yak go for £5-6m with little time to line up a replacement. I agree he doesn't much like wheeler-dealing, but think in many ways we've benefited from having a relatively stable squad over the last few years.

And to criticise his transfer record- even the best make a few duff signings, eg SAF signing Anderson, Hargreaves, Carrick and Nani (all around £15-20m) and also Kleberson and Djemba Djemba a while back
Jamie Tulacz
31   Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:09:21

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Paul Roderick (#25)- the same SWP who was rubbish at the World Cup. Also Moyes was told we couldn't afford Bellamy on loan so not even sure we'd have been able to afford SWP either?
Neil Steele
32   Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:54:03

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Alan, you have just reiterated what I have said on every forum under the sun since the transfer window closed...and I obviously agree wholeheartedly with the point.

I don't, however, agree with you on the players you brought up.

I think Jags is one of the finest centre halves in this league, and when he fully gets his confidence back following the cruciate, he will be a rock again.

Heitinga has also been a brilliant signing. Equally at home at centre half or midfield, his winning mentality and absolute quality on the ball have been a breath of fresh air...he is captain material, not sale material.

No, when we are looking at players to cash in - and we should have - there are plenty of suspects ahead of them.

In mid-range terms, and with a realistic re-sale value, you have to be looking at Yobo, Yakubu and Bilyaletdinov . The one people won;t have that I would certainly add to that list is Tim Cahill.

Now, IMO, the sale of those 4, for realistic, enticing, prices would have realised something like £20m.

The problem you then have though is you are depleting numbers. To IMPROVE the team on those terms, you would be looking at a 4 for 2 swap with a pair of £10m fees. Obviously the wages would be a saving because you are also shipping out some high earners there.

Now personally, i'd be comfortable with that. I like to take risks and I think given the versatility of several of our squad, the risk would be minimal. With that money we could have then brough in a proper right-sided player - Landon for arguments sake - (who also doubles as a striker lets not forget) and a decent centre forward to add further competition.

Rodwell could then justify his contract by playing week in, week out in Cahill's position, and should he need a breather, you have the options of putting Pienaar in there and Magaye on the left or even bringing Ossie in to play either of those roles. No problem.

Alternatively though, if you don't wish to deplete numbers, then IMO you have to be looking at Fellaini or Rodwell.

Quite simply, I cannot see how Moyes is going to play both of these players in the same team on a regular basis. Now, I know it may not *seem* a good thing to be selling your top young talents, but you also have to tally that with reality. Is Moyes likely to bomb Cahill out and play the clearly superior footballer in Rodwell? No...it's not his style. So therefore, you have to accept, that for large parts of the season, we are going to have a £20m saleable asset sat on the bench.

Now whilst some people would undoubtedly say that shows we are 'strong' and have a 'squad'...I would argue that it is plain fucking stupid.

You build your SQUAD when you have a TEAM.

Everton FC is not in a position to have £30-40m of players on the bench and in the stands when we dont have a single solitary right sided midfield player or a really serious centre forward. It is utter stupidity.

As Alan rightly says, we are overloaded in certain areas and ridiculously thin on the ground in others...not even thin on the ground actually, just completely threadbare.

For all the stick Kenwright rightly gets, Moyes has had an AWFUL summer in the market.

It's alright people listing names like Cahill, Arteta, Lescott, Jags etc.....he has signed those players over a number of years.

Cahill is past his sell by date, Lescott has gone, Jags has snapped his cruciate etc.

This is the risk you run with your steady away approach, great that we have signed good players...but when you do it so slowly, you are forever "just 2 or 3 players away from challenging".

At the current rate, we will have a right winger, a proper player to replace Cahill in the hole and a decent frontman when Mikel is celebrating his 35th birthday and Jack Rodwell is signing his 3rd contract with Manchester United.

And once again....we'll just be "2 or 3 players away from challenging".

Moyes is too one dimensional, too old school,and frankly...too fucking slow to get things done.

He is a good manager,but an A,B,C manager. Right now, as far as I can see, he is taking us nowhere and personally I would welcome a change. Fresh impetus, fresh ideas and someone who could come in and shake things up and not be frightened to ship out some of the 'established' deadwood.
Marc Williams
33   Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:49:47

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Moyes is probably too busy dithering over the Villa job right now, to concentrate on what he's paid £65K a week for as yet.

He does it this time every year over something, sulking or dithering over : buying, selling etc..... Looking depressed whilst bemoaning our lack of funds and ignoring our lack of balance with those he does buy.
I mean how long did it take him to sign his "Kings Ransom" of a contract while tranfer targets came & went and the team was rudderless when the season started, after the Lescott debacle?

I mean, FFS, did anyone see his post match interview last Sunday!?! Same old, same old I'm afraid, though as ever he'll eventually realise he's stuck with us & pull his finger out... but not until we've lost too many points to make 4th !

Dennis Stevens
34   Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:14:07

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No, Ray, you're quite right, Moyes is obviously the best manager in the world, nobody could have achieved what he has at the club - I only wonder that Kenwright has been able to hold on to such a talent when all the "big" clubs right across Europe must be constantly hammering at the door in their desperation to buy Moyes out of his contract!

Get a grip! Moyes is a good manger, perhaps a very good manager, but will he'll prove to be a great manager? Sadly, I doubt it.

As far as I can see, he's built a squad that has shown how good it can be & the onus is on him to get the best out of that squad, but I fear he'll fall short this season. If that should prove to be the case then I struggle to see how we'll progress any further under his managership & would be happy to see a change... but I'm sure we won't get one.

Brendan O'Doherty
35   Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:17:31

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Up to what ? Oh the job, you mean. Daft question.
Dave Wilson
36   Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:22:09

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This article is all over the place.

"We`ve allowed a good player to go on loan" "without recouping any money for him" ? what? Isn't that how it works?

"How good a buy was Heitinga?" ... "he`s obviously a good player" ... Sorry? Your point is?

You then whine "We have an unhappy striker with a goal scoring record not even making the bench" ... followed by ... "he`s done nothing to justify his worth" ...and then ... "he hasn't even bothered to regain his fitness"!!!

I lost count of the number of times you contradicted yourself.

Andy Crooks
37   Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:40:33

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Ray, is it a qualification for doubting David Moyes to draw up a list of alternatives? He is paid a huge salary and were he to move elsewhere I think we are in a position to attract an adequate replacement. However, I am not suggesting he should go; after three games it makes no sense. If, however, he felt that he could do better elsewhere, I won't see it as the disaster some do.

The question you ask, Ray, is asked so often by DM's admirers that my answer would be: appoint Alan Stubbs as caretaker and pay Terry Venables to find the best coach that £3.5 million a year can buy. If he found that we already had him, I would be amazed.

Dave Wilson
38   Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:51:32

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Oh BTW Alan.

Earlier in the year, I wrote an article suggesting we cash in on Jagielka; you called me a madman. You now seem to be questioning why we didnt sell him ?

Either you are contradicting yourself again, or you`ve realised he is living on his performances against lady boy, two seasons ago.

Can it really be that the penny has taken six months to drop?
Brendan O'Doherty
39   Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:02:35

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Pay Terry Venables ? Have you lost it completely Andy ?
Jay Harris
40   Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:44:54

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If Moyes was In Appy Arry's or Mancini's position able to buy any player thats going I am sure we would be in the CL every year.

Unfortunately he is not and in trying to do his best for the club under the most extreme financial restrictions he is now coming in for flack from some quarters because we havent lived up to expectations for the first three games (actually 2 because we were very unlucky to lose at Villa).

Now all the armchair experts are out in force questioning a manager with Moyes pedigree.

People have very short memories in fact I bet some of you were predicting we'd win the league before the season started.

Before you force Moyes to rethink his involvement with the club I would take you back to Walter Smith, a very successful manager with Rangers and Scotland who made us such a major force under Kenwright. In fact we were such a major force we nearly got relegated twice.

As other posters have said WHO the hell would you get to replace Moyes operating under a zero budget.

While Kenwright is here I wouldnt risk any other manager because Moyes is the only one to make a silk purse out of Sows ears.

Why do you think Moyes made a big point of stating that we couldnt afford Donovan while he was trying to address the wide issue with £900k Gueye? That is the extent of the Board's ambition and that is why we struggle to keep up while Kenwright is running the show.
Joe McMahon
41   Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:19:28

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Alan - as far as I'm concerned - NO. * central midfielders and in his 9th season to address the issue. 65k a week for this kind of Incompetence.
Brian Waring
42   Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:08:29

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James "Only when Moyes is given funds to compete, can he be judged fairly." So if we finish 10th this season James, that will be okay, because Moyes doesn't have the money to compete?

The money excuse has always been a favourite of the apologists when things aren't going to plan, but for me this season, there can be no excuses.

All pre-season we have had it rammed down our throats that we have one of the best squads in the Prem, we have one of the best midfields in the Prem (Some have said it is the best), we have been touted as title contenders on here, deffo top 4 etc. For me, all this talk pre - season has been a huge plus, because now, all the apologists cannot use excuse after excuse, if things aren't going our way.
Chris Perry
43   Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:39:39

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Simple. NO!

But there is also no one else who is who is either available or willing.

Jamie Tulacz
44   Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:31:54

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Brian: if lack of funds isn't the point, could you tell us which clubs at the top of the league are short of funds and which club with less funds than us are doing better, as I certainly can't think of any.

Not quite sure how Moyes is supposed to resolve the areas of weakness in the squad when we can't even afford to loan a pot to piss in!

The only reason we have one of the best midfields in the league now is because Moyes has somehow managed to build it up on a net transfer budget of about £2m a year.
Alan Kirwin
45   Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:53:13

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There is an inescapable paradox with David Moyes: he clearly has an eye for buying & improving players; he has clearly assembled an excellent squad given our resources. But there is a bizarre imbalance around the park, with a notable lack of width or pace.

Now, if we were playing in a way that maximised our strengths (i.e. 4-2-3-1) then this would not be that relevant (many top class teams play without width), but for some strange reason our manager seems to have nailed his underpants to the 4-5-1 tree and won't budge. This then leads him to play accomplished players out of position. This not only neuters their effectiveness, it results in avoidable problems caused when these players stray into their natural territory and leave gaps which opponents exploit.

If we had a couple of speed merchants to fill wide positions then there's a debate to be had. But we don't. Thus I sit, wait & pray for the circumstances to arrive that finally force Moyes' hand to play 4-2-3-1 and allow the players to better express themselves and, I fully expect, to achieve better results.

This has nothing to do with funds. Funds will always (well, almost always) result in improvement. But we have a very talented squad of players and Moyes has chosen all of them. One assumes he has a game plan in mind. But it isn't always that obvious.
Brian Waring
46   Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:02:16

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Jamie, the point I'm trying to make, is that some of our fans can't come on here pre-season tipping us as title contenders, or nailed on top 4, with outside of Chelsea one of the best squads in the Prem, with one of the best midfields in the Prem, and then if it all goes tits up, to then conveniently use the funds issue as an excuse.

Also, I thought (well it was before the season started) it was only the right side of midfield that was our problem?
Alan Kirwin
47   Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:06:49

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Brian W (42) - Agree with most of that. I was indeed one of those musing on our potential this season and the strength of our squad, and especially our midfield. Rammed down throats is a bizarre way of describing a genuine optimism amongst many supporters that was/is also shared by the 2 most successful managers in the league and many of the more enlightened pundits.

Nothing to apologise for. It was what it was.

I guess I was also persuaded by our manager's musings and analysis as a world cup pundit, his effusive praise for the style & retention of Spain play, and his new found openness for tactical fluidity.

Yet here we are AGAIN, 3 games in, none against "top" sides, 8 points dropped and a disjointed and unbalanced look about the team on the pitch. I truly did not expect to see us playing 4-5-1 for the simple reason that we do not have the players to make it work well.

Anyway, my wager at 250-1 now looks romantic & foolhardy. I guess that'll teach me to appreciate that sometimes 2+2=3.
Eugene Ruane
48   Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:13:37

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Years back, a question like this would have been easy to answer because the 'it' would have referred indirectly to the title.

"We won't win the title with Bingham, he's not up to it, we should fuck him off"

Simple.

Now?

Now I think you need to be specific about the 'it' in "Is Moyes up to it?".

The reason I say this, is because it seems to me that the 'it' has become different for Evertonians over the past 15-20 years (see TW...every day)

For some, 'it' is top-half finishes, possibly europa and possibly, the pinnacle - 4th.

Is he up to that?

Absolutely - he's already proved he is.

(mainly top half, couple of 5ths a 4th etc)

Within this 'it', his buys have been in the main the right players and his dealings in the transfer market, generally good.

If the 'it' however is winning things, being tactically smart, being imaginative, creative and unpredictable (nb: in a good way) then the answer is no.

Unlike Jay, I believe he wouldn't do any better with money, simply because I don't believe he has the imagination.

Lack of imagination is not a crime by the way - as a person, he has many of the traits that make fantastic members of society.

I believe him to be honest, straight-forward, hard-working and sincere

The opposite of say a slippery twat like Harry Redknapp.

But I think Redknapp is a 'cannier' manager.

Craftier (shiftier if you prefer) but definitely more imagination and flexibility.

Even Moyes biggest supporters can't deny that often we have performed better when his choices have been limited or forced on him by injury, suspension or players leaving.

So for me, he hasn't got 'it'.

And are my expectations unrealistic?

Absolutely.



Brian Waring
49   Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:27:26

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Alan, 'rammed' was probably not the word to use, but sometimes some of the posts seemed to come accross with an air of arrogance about them.
Robert Daniels
50   Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:21:24

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Spot on, Eugene, spot on!
Stephen Kenny
51   Posted 02/09/2010 at 22:11:44

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Alan Kirwan,

I'm seriously impressed how you have shoehorned your 4-2-3-1 opinion in to every single thread for the best part of 3 weeks.

Bravo!!
Ray Roche
52   Posted 02/09/2010 at 22:20:09

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Dennis Stevens @34

Dennis, I haven't stated that Moyes is the best manager in the world, but he IS a manager who has transformed the playing staff he took over into one that is, arguably, the best pound for pound squad in the Prem. Last week I quoted the team he put out against Fulham in his first match in charge and invited comment but no-one rose to the challenge. An idiot could see the improvement.

Dennis, I KNOW Moyes isn't the best manager in the world. But for Christ's sake, let's give credit where it's due. We've gone from perrenial relegation fodder to a team that's challenging for a European adventure most seasons. And last season we played some terrific football. Moyes has been lauded by his peers on several occasions in winning the Manager Of The Year award.

I can't understand why some of the talent on this thread haven't also managed at the top level.

Andy Crooks @37.

Terry Venables? Dear God in Heaven. I could lose the will to live.... still, at least you've come up with a name. No-one else could.

Jamie Tulacz
53   Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:45:41

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Brian

Fair enough- I was one of those hoping for a decent season this season, though the championship was always unrealistic and I don't think many people were seriously expecting that. If you look at the league table only 2 or 3 sides have started off well, so all's definitely not lost yet

Let's at least give it more than 3 games of the season though, as we normally start the season off slowly and come on stronger later on. It's pretty frustrating that this always seems to be the case, but I don't think we can expect to make progress every season when we don't have the funds to bring in top players whilst most of the sides above us do.
Jimmy Hacking
54   Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:47:01

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I'm not doubting for a second that Moyes has been very good for the club, but what frustrates me is the fact that it was painfully obvious before the season started that we needed at least a couple of new players for this to be the fabled "good season" everyone's been holding their breath for, it became EVEN MORE bloody obvious after 3 league games, and yet he still brought in no bloody striker or right-mid.

If Beckford scores 5 goals this season I will eat my hat. A fight between us and Villa for 7th place methinks
David Price
55   Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:33:32

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Amazing, no sooner do we have a fully fit squad then we want to sell some of them.

Jags is getting slated, the lad had a serious injury and even said in pre-season, mentally he feels his knee is going to give in. Likewise Fellaini is probably taking it easy with his ankle. Both these players are outstanding team players and managed by an outstanding manager.

However, Moyes has to look no further than Capello's indecisions and poor formation to understand that sometimes a player can't just play anywhere. Each player is a cog in a wheel that needs to perform effectively to put everything in motion.

So, if the best player on the right available is, in his opinion, Osman, then he should stick to that decision and so on throughout the team.

This is now a different era for Moyes as a Manager he has never had this quality of squad, i reckon he's made the mistake of thinking they'll just turn up and get the 3 points.

Moyes has to mould this 25-man squad into an effective machine, with everyone in the right position and any changes during a game or through injuries/suspension are like for like. He's had chance to gather his thoughts and despite his stubbornness, which every great manager has had by the way, he also learns and develops his trade.
Moyes will come through, as will the team, I have no doubt, in what is the toughest league to compete in.

Dennis Stevens
56   Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:59:59

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Ray, you haven't claimed Moyes is the best manger in the world... but you seem to doubt there is anybody else out there who could match or surpass his achievements, hence your ridiculous & pointless challenge, sounds rather like much the same thing to me.

I'm certainly not trying to diminsh what Moyes has achieved at Everton with minimal financial backing, but to offset that, he has been given time. In fact he is the longest serving manager at Everton not to have lead the team to any silverware.

As you quite rightly say he's transformed the squad & we can, at times, play great football. However, the question now is whether Moyes can use that squad to actually win something.

I fully appreciate what he's done so far, but I wonder if he can do any more. If the best he can offer is to try & maintain Everton as an upper mid-table club with occasional forays into Europe then that should not be satisfying the ambitions of the supporters, players or Board, or even Moyes himself.

I would love to see Moyes emerge as a truly great manager & lead us into a new era of success, but I just find it increasingly hard to believe he has it in him. If you do think he has "it" then I hope that I end up being pleasantly surprised, rather than you being disappointed.

By the way, I don't think it's all that smart to imply that somebody is an idiot just because they disagree with you, especially when the basis for your comment isn't really borne out by what I'd actually written, perhaps it's idiotic of me to expect people to actually read the posts they reply to.

Mike Green
57   Posted 03/09/2010 at 00:15:11

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I'll give the anti-Moyes brigade a wonderful if not priceless gift - the benefit of hindsight.....

It's 2002. We are where we are, Smith has gone.

Who would you have rather we appointed, and if we had appointed them where do you think we would be now?

And - do you think they would still be with us now...?
Dennis Stevens
58   Posted 03/09/2010 at 00:34:04

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Mike, I'm an Evertonian & so I support Everton FC - I am pro- Everton, not anti-Moyes. You seem to be repeating much the same ridiculous & pointless question as Ray posed earlier in the thread. Argueing over who may or may not hypothetically have been as good or better than Moyes for the last 8 years is rather silly, we can't go back to 2002 & find out who's right.

As you said "we are where we are", Moyes is here now & the question is whether he has what it takes to start winning some silverware, preferably the Title. You may feel that's an unrealistic ambition for Everton, but surely the only true sporting ambition is to be the best.

Richard Harris
59   Posted 03/09/2010 at 00:56:35

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Alan Kirwin wrote "Anyway, my wager at 250-1 now looks romantic & foolhardy".
Romantic and foolhardy - that's what makes us special :0) If we take that away then we would be like supporters of other teams !!
Phil Bellis
60   Posted 03/09/2010 at 01:12:06

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Please excuse my sprl chevker
Mike Green
61   Posted 03/09/2010 at 02:01:09

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Dennis - I'm an Evertonian too as it happens.

Lets say we take Moyes into the boardroom on Monday and say:

"David, given where we were in 2002 we think you have been the ideal choice as manager, but for all you have done for us this is where we part company - we think we can, and deserve better. Good luck in whatever you choose to do next".

Is that a risk you, as Chairman, would be prepared to take / make?

And who - in 2010 - given where we are, who would you appoint to take us to the Title?
Gary Sedgwick
62   Posted 03/09/2010 at 02:37:47

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"The problem is with Everton our play is slow and laboured side to side all the time. We need to be far more direct."

Hoofballl anyone? That is "far more direct" and Moyes gets canned for it!

;-)

Michael Brien
63   Posted 03/09/2010 at 07:14:26

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I would have more confidence in David Moyes if he showed a bit more flexibility in his team selections/formations. He seems to be obsessed with the 4-5-1 formation and, whilst I can understand the logic of playing that formation against the likes of Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea, I don't think it is necessary to play that formation against EVERY team.

We let slip a good oportunity to put Villa under pressure with our tactics last weekend. Going into that match on the back of a 0-6 defeat at Newcastle and a 2-3 home loss to Rapid Vienna I would have thought the Villa defence would have been lacking a bit of confidence ? especially after the way Carroll had caused so many problems for them up at St James Park ? surely the simple tactic of putting a lot of crosses into their penalty area would have given their back 4 a severe test.

Once again it was a case of safety first and caution. Anti-Moyes? No I am not ? it's more a case of being against predictable tactics. I hope that Moyes shows more adventure and less caution ? it's as simple as that. Look at the stats: in 3 games we have conceded as many goals as Villa have in half a game, yet it is Villa who are higher in the table and have 2 wins to their name ? whilst we have yet to get off the mark.

In my opinion, if David Moyes maintains his cautious approach it will cost us any chance of a "top 6 challenge". And look at it like this ? if you are a striker at Everton, you know that if DM plays his usual formation, then you have a good chance of spending time on the bench. What is the point of having so many good strikers if you only ever start with one in a match?

Andy Crooks
64   Posted 03/09/2010 at 08:18:28

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Ray and Brendan, I haven't lost it and here's why:

Firstly, I wasn't suggesting that Terry Venables should ever be Everton manager. My suggestion was that, in the event of DM going to Villa, Venables should be consulted on finding a replacement. Is it really something you would want to leave to Bill Kenwright? Wasn't David Moyes appointed on the advice of Walter Smith?

The point I was trying to make was that I as a supporter know a bit about Everton but not enough about world football to come up with a list of possible candidates. Venables is one of the finest coaches Britain has produced ? what would be wrong with paying him for advice?

By the way Ray if I was to suggest who I would really like to see as coach I would dread to see the reaction of you and Brendan.

Alan Kirwin
65   Posted 03/09/2010 at 09:04:11

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Thanks Stephen, I was beginning to think nobody had noticed :)
Chris Butler
66   Posted 03/09/2010 at 09:32:09

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Why argue when after all we all want Everton to do well and we have to be honest about things here Moyes is pretty poor when spending large amounts. Felainis signing was very strange for Moyes as really nobody knew much about him or what type of player he was at the time. Felaini hasn't yet justified he fee simple because he can be great 1 game diabloical the next. Like many others I though Billys signing was a mistake as he only really shows flashes of what he can do. The irong was when of sky sports when Paul Merson said Moyes doesn't just spend millions of unknown Russian players of for Jeff Stelling to tell him we'd just purchased Billy. Moyes has made some excellent signings in my opinion Jags and Baines being the best as Arteta and Heitenga were always decent at whatever club they played for. Anichebe should play up front on both derby games with Cahill as they caused mayhem in the Liverpool defence in previous derby games.
Michael Evans
67   Posted 03/09/2010 at 10:04:40

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As Eugene@48 says, it depends what your criteria is

If "It" means is he a loser in that he produces teams that get relegated or get their arses kicked on a regular basis - then yes he does have "It" because that doesn't happen.

However, if "It" means is he a manager who produces teams that WIN leagues, cups etc - then No he doesn't have "It".

Call me old fashioned, sentamentalist etc but I would also say that he doesn't have "It" because the history books I believe will show that his teams lacked the style, adventurous play that once used to be expected at Goodison.

Put another way, would players like Limpar, Kanchelskis et al have flourished or for that matter even have been played under DM ? Or would he have been horrified by their lack of "tracking back" ?

Ray Roche
68   Posted 03/09/2010 at 10:41:19

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Dennis Stevens
i hardly think that it's a "ridiculous & pointless challenge" to invite someone to name a successor to Moyes. If people can only criticise Moyes with no solution then maybe it would be better if they said nothing, don't you think? I too would love Moyes to bring us trophies, possibly like yourself, I remember the wonderful 1960's and great palyers like Young, Vernon, etc. and it would be great to revisit those days and give the younger fans an idea of what it was like.

But I think that had Moyes not arrived we would have been a Championship side, or worse, right now with no chance of getting back to the Prem. Incidentally, I was not referring to you as an idiot, merely pointing out that only an idiot could not, or would not, credit Moyes with greatly improving our squad.

Don't get me wrong, I am sometimes baffled by Moyes team selection and certainly substitutions, but overall I think he has been as good as we could have had in his tenure. And there is still no-one prepared to answer the ridiculous and pointless question, probably because no-one can come up with a better manager.' It's dead easy to criticise.
Are you the REAL Dennis Stevens?

Andy Crooks @64

Go on, Andy. Name him. You know you want too.

Ryan Rosenberg
69   Posted 03/09/2010 at 11:35:01

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It was stupid to buy Bily & Distin, Heitinga was a good buy. Given we sold Lescott for £23 mil., we could have spent the remaining £15 mil on a right winger but instead he buys a centre back who is way past his best, and some guy I still don't know what position he is ? where does Bily actually play? Anyway, Moyes out ? this was the season (I know, we're 3 games in) where we had the best chance to come 4th, and I'm not convinced we can finish in the top 10.
Mike Rourke
70   Posted 03/09/2010 at 11:24:17

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I feel this is the appropriate thread to air a thought about something that has been on my mind since Tuesday.

Beausejour to Birmingham for around £4m.

I recall him being part of a quite magnificent and free-flowing Chilean attack at the World Cup, I'm also under the impression that he is a winger too.

I think the brummies are going to have one heck of a player on their hands at a snip of a price.

Being just the sort of player we need at such an apparently agreeable price and who, presumably, was touted around by his agent, the question on my mind has been: Why on earth weren't we able to buy him?

The answer I feel lies squarely at the Chairman's door, not the manager's.

How can lack of funds simply be dismissed as an "excuse" for not taking us further by Moyes's detractors? I would say that lack of funds constitutes a fully fledged 'reason' as to why improvement is a virtual impossibility.

A £1.5million summer transfer budget? That used to be acceptable in the 80's. Who exactly would use that money more wisely so as to take us to the next level? Mourinho? Redknapp? Can't see it myself. Wenger? Ok, maybe. But maybe not, not coming here anyway so totally irrelevant.

Is Moyes up for it? Could he win us all that we dream of? In my my opinion most definitley 100% yes, just give the man some funds!

Over to you Chairman and board, the real question is are you up for it?

...
Carl Moulton
71   Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:09:38

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No team in Premier League History has spent so little and has been trying to battle it out for Europe on such a regular basis as Everton. If we had shit loads of money, we would win things. If West Brom had shit loads of money, they would win things. Look at City: shit for 100 years, they have money, they will win things. Moyes has given us all hope against all the odds and deserves every penny of his contract.
Michael Brien
72   Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:39:24

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Mike ? I don't think it is simply a matter of funds. Moyes has signed some good players... but I don't think that he gets the best out of them. Hiddink has expressed concern regarding Bily ? how come he as Bily's national team manager was able to get more out of the player/use the player more effectively than Moyes?

i haven't been so frustrated with an Everton manager since the late 1970s and Gordon Lee changed a fine attacking team. We went from being top scorers in 1977-78 with 77 goals and 3rd place to a very distant 4th and 25 goals less the next season. Lee was obsessed with so-called hard working players and let McKenzie go replacing him with Wlash!!!

Moyes is obsessed with 4-5-1 and doesn't seem to know how to get the best from the creative/attacking players in his squad. The excuse of not having enough funds is wearing thin ? it is not having enough creative ambition in his tactics that's to blame.

Michael Brien
73   Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:49:23

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That should be Walsh - but given his finishing or lack of it - he played like Wlash!!!
Ged Simpson
74   Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:50:39

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Just showed the title of this to some mates from a variety of clubs.

Response : insane
Brendan O'Doherty
75   Posted 03/09/2010 at 14:54:05

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Come on Andy. answer Ray's question. The suspense is killing us....

I can just see BK handing over a load of dosh to Tel 'awite ma san' Venables.

"Here's some cash, Terry, go and find us a new coach".

"Fackin' 'ell Bill", he says, sporting the cheesiest cockney grin on his face that you can imagine. "Sawted".

Simon Lloyd
76   Posted 03/09/2010 at 14:55:43

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Page 94 of today's Times newspaper details a study which concludes that "Everton had the most financially wily leader last season" and identifies Moyes as the manager who provides most value for money. The other premiership managers think he is ace but we think he isn't good enough because his teams can't win the league against teams packed with the worlds most expensive footballers.

Get real.
Andy Crooks
77   Posted 03/09/2010 at 15:27:33

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Should David Moyes decide to go to Villa we would need an experienced coach with tactical awareness and imagination. How about the much maligned but underrated .........Glenn Hoddle.
Dennis Stevens
78   Posted 03/09/2010 at 15:49:44

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Mike & Ray, it is pointless to ask people to name a successor for Moyes as it will only lead to another argument over the merits of suggested candidates & we'll never find out who's right unless they're actually appointed to the job. The clear point of that question is to suggest that there isn't a viable candidate for the job ? that we daren't take that 'risk', as Mike put it.

Now, for all Moyes has achieved in the last 8 years, to suggest that he is irreplaceable is plainly nonsense ? if he really was that good, Kenwright would have found it impossible to hang on to him.

Let me turn your Boardroom scenario around a little, Mike: if, come the season's end, we've finished upper mid-table again & there seems little prospect of further progress under Moyes, would you give him another season, & another, & so on? At what point do you decide that a change of manager is necessary to build the club further on the foundations Moyes has laid?

Or is your loyalty to Moyes such that you'd have him here for life ? comfortably upper mid-table, occasionally in Europe, never winning anything. You both seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't contemplate changing manager in search of success for fear of failure; however, what that may well mean is just settling for mediocrity instead.

I am now doubtful that Moyes does have "it", that he will ever lead Everton to success ? which is a great shame as I think he deserves success after what he has achieved, but we don't always get what we deserve.

By the way Ray, I am merey 'a' Dennis Stevens, not 'the' Dennis Stevens.

Stephen Kenny
79   Posted 03/09/2010 at 16:42:58

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Dennis,

You're too modest.
David Thomas
80   Posted 03/09/2010 at 16:51:15

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Glenn Hoddle as our new manager, Terry Venables sorting the deal out? Is it April 1st?
Jay Harris
81   Posted 03/09/2010 at 17:17:30

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Andy, sorry to be sarcastic but at least he'd be close to the spirits with the Chuch being next door.

Perhaps Harry could give him some guidance.

Think you lost the plot on that one pal.
Tony J Williams
82   Posted 03/09/2010 at 17:26:01

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Michael 72, isn't Hiddinks concern mostly that he isn't playing enough games? The Japanese coach gets the best out of all his players too, doesn't mean I want any of them in my team........unless that have a quick and skillful right winger they want to loan to us and also pay his wages as we are skint
Charles King
83   Posted 03/09/2010 at 18:43:35

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Just read the Echo's piece about Yobo and Moyes; essentially, Yobo let Moyes down and the Echo's take is DM got his revenge by hardly playing him then sending him to Turkey on loan.

I quote verbatim the Echo:
"Yobo made just nine starts after that, proving that hell hath no fury like a Scottish manager scorned"

The Echo clearly think this strikes a chord with Evertonians, strong Moysie etc etc. but highlights the divergence for me. I hope this is bollocks because it's desperate stuff if correct... Yobo should have been sold in these circumstances and the transfer money but to some use. Reeks of small minded pettiness.
Andy Crooks
84   Posted 03/09/2010 at 19:05:10

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Jay, the idea that an ordinary supporter cannot criticise David Moyes without offering an alternative is ludicrous. Dennis Stevens really says what I want to.

Would I like Glenn Hoddle to be the next Everton manager? With my limited knowledge of world football I reckon there are better out there. That is my point; I am qualified, after nine years watching Everton, to have an opinion on David Moyes but not to pick an alternative.

Incidentally, David Thomas, why would it be April 1st to suggest that as far as coaching goes the admirable David Moyes is not, nor never will be, in the same league as Terry Venables?

Brendan McLaughlin
85   Posted 03/09/2010 at 22:25:59

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Andy #84
"That is my point, I am qualified..."
I must remember to "doff my cap" and "tug my forelock" if I ever feel bold enough to engage with you in future.
Amit Vithlani
86   Posted 03/09/2010 at 22:45:40

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Yes. 3 bad games this season does not make him a bad manager. And the (admittedly vocal) minority who think his past record is questionable, further support for his work:

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2010/09/03/study-says-blues-were-real-champions-

I want trophies as much as the next fan but sadly I dont live in Football Manager land. In my world Lionel Messi does not play for Everton and Bill Kenwright has f*ck all to invest in EFC.

Eric Hardman
87   Posted 03/09/2010 at 23:25:03

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Post 86 "3 bad games this season does not make him a bad manager".
Agreed. But add in 9 years of achieving nothing worth mentioning except a reputation for hoofball that sees us last on MotD every week and perhaps you have more of a case.
He'll never be a great manager because his only skill is bullying a poor team into believing they're good enough to avoid relegation. He has no tactical ability, can't do substitutions, and wouldn't know an attacking line-up if he fell over it. He's arrogant, stubborn, vindictive and fails to learn from his mistakes. Almost every thread for the past 3 weeks has shown up one or another of his failings.
Moyes must go. Money will make no difference. He just can't 'do' success.
I've got fed up with waiting for him to win something. Right now I'm waiting for him to just win a league match and I think I'll still be waiting by mid October.
Nick Entwistle
88   Posted 04/09/2010 at 02:09:27

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Terry Venebles, the man who right royally FU'pped Portsmouth and Palace, lead Leeds Utd towards relegation and started the Club England mentality that lasts to this day. Yeah he's amazing.
James Stewart
89   Posted 04/09/2010 at 02:15:06

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There are some great points in this. I do not fall into either the Anti Moyes or Pro Moyes.

He has his good points and he restored some pride into being an evertonian again after the Walter Smith disaster.

However this season has already been an embarrassment.

1. His terrible transfer dealings. Now before you scream yes but he has £0 to spend, don't forget big money was offered for Jagielka which should have been taken. His value will never be higher and could be easily replaced. Committed pro yes talented defender definitely not. Letting Yobo, a player of similar ability, Go for nothing was short sighted. There could have been funds there. However the last £15m was wasted on Distin and Bily. Now don't get me wrong Bily is a decent player but was simply not what we needed. We have to be careful with the little we have.
2. The embarrassing lack of a Plan B if we concede a girl. Seriously we have talented players now so what the hell is going wrong? The lack of imagination is a disgrace.
3. Moyes does not know his best team. players are constantly being played out of position. Osman, Cahill, Anichebe, Rodwell, Bily and before them A.johnson & Radzinski were all played wide right. WHY!? why not address this problem area!? It has been 8 years after all! We need a settled first XL with players in their natural positions.

This is the season Moyes can be judged on & I think so far he is failing miserably. I hope he can turn it around and for once become proactive instead of reactive. We have a squad which is talented and big enough to challenge the top 4 and anything less than that should enforce a change at the top.
Ray Roche
90   Posted 04/09/2010 at 07:34:48

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James Stewart @89

I think you're firmly in the "Anti-Moyes" camp after your offering. Can you imagine the flak he'd take for selling Jags? Moyes, selling the current England centre half! Everton, SELLING CLUB!

We're trying to build a team, not dismantle one, and I know the £14m or whatever could be invested in more players but how much do you think Moyes would have got? "Oh shit, the transfer window's closed" says Bill, as the money disappears down the back of his sofa.

Stephen Kenny
91   Posted 04/09/2010 at 07:49:27

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There are some ludicrous suggstion's on this thread. Top of the list is that we should ask El Tel to help us find another manager should Moyes ever go. The second is that Gary Megson would be in if Moyes ever left. I'm fairly sure we would see a very high standard of applicant should the Everton job ever be available. My Choice would be Pellegrini who worked wonder's at Villarreal, although there are some potentially great managers in the lower reaches of the Premier League who insist on playing the game the right way.

The third suggestion is that Yobo and the Jag are in some way comparable as centre halves. This is absolute nonsense that some are using as a stick to beat the manager with. Yobo was at one point about 3-4 seasons ago a very good defender who was prone to the occasional lapse. The past few years he has been a liability in the Titus Bramble mould and the worst hoofball merchant in a team full of them. Jagielka is nowhere near his best at the moment, but he is getting there and will by mid-October be as sharp as he was prior to his career threatening injury when he was the best defender in the Premier League.

I personally feel there were issues with the side that should have been addressed in this transfer window, but I can see that maybe Moyes didn't see that as the case or that the wage bill is as high as it can possibly be, which meant that we had to either lose players or stay as we are? I don't think there is a manager in the world that would not take the opportunity to strengthen his team if it were an option, which once again points us towards the board.

For me, the other accusations aimed at him don't stand up to analysis ? he can't change a game because his subs are poor, yet we were the side that took the most point's last season from a losing position. I have to admit this surprised me because I do agree that they appear to be baffling in a lot of cases, yet the stats say he's right and I'm wrong.

Overall, I think his positives still outweigh.
Amit Vithlani
92   Posted 04/09/2010 at 10:16:24

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Actually, for my money, top of the ludicrous suggestions is that being last on MotD is somehow a measure of a manager's and a team's worth.

I dont care where we are on MotD. For the first time in many years, I actually enjoy watching the side and we have good players. We are not going to win the league unless some multi-billion sheikh pours money into the club. At that point, we will have our choice of great managers and yes, perhaps Moyes could be succeeded by someone better.

With our limited resources, Moyes is the best option. His past record proves this.
David Thomas
93   Posted 04/09/2010 at 10:22:50

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Andy,

What exactly is it that Terry Venables achieved as a head coach / manager that is so amazing?

Also, Hoddle has been a manager for longer than Moyes and has not won a major honour. So why would he be better than Moyes?
Andy Crooks
94   Posted 04/09/2010 at 10:47:06

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David, can you not see how odd it is that by doubting David Moyes I now find myself in the bizarre position of defending Venables and Hoddle on an Everton website. The point I have been trying to make is that it is no defence of David Moyes to ask what the alternative is.
David Thomas
95   Posted 04/09/2010 at 11:36:56

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Andy,

I have not asked you to give me an alternative to David Moyes.

You offered the names of Terry Venables and Glenn Hoddle. I am sure no one was holding you at gun point to type these names in your post.

I was simply interested to find out why you thought Glenn Hoddle and Terry Venables were such good coaches.
Nick Flack
96   Posted 04/09/2010 at 13:20:48

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Realistically, I can't think of one player who was available, and affordable, who I would have liked us to buy. All the eggs seemed to be in one basket, trying to get Pienaar to sign a new deal. He didn't and he'll most likely leave in January or next summer.

I hope he leaves at the end of the season, on a free, he's been a good blue and doesn't deserve to be hung out for the first bid. I think maybe Moyes is hoping that, in that time, Bily will up his game and provide an instant replacement.

Right back or wing is a suspect area, but there's no one out there. Point proven by the amount of people putting Glen Johnson under pressure for his England shirt. He's appalling, yet a shoe-in for the team!!!

I'm not worried we didn't sign anyone; we didn't have to. I was glad we didn't let Rodwell go ? I was convinced he'd be a last-minute sale. He needs to play regularly, and in the right place.

Andy Crooks
97   Posted 04/09/2010 at 14:35:43

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Dave: "What has Venables achieved? Spanish title, Spanish league cup, hugely unlucky penalties defeat in European Cup Final. Penalties defeat at Euro 96 after some magnificent performances. Attacking, exciting, imaginative tactics.

Glenn Hoddle: every team he has coached have played exciting innovative football. I admire David Moyes but the adjectives applied to him are different. Safe, conservative, unyielding, stubborn, dogmatic, negative, tight, safe, safe, safe.

David Thomas
98   Posted 04/09/2010 at 15:07:51

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Andy,

So... in almost 30 years of management, he has won one La Liga title with a club who was already successful when he took over... and suddenly he is this great coach?

"Glenn Hoddle: every team he has coached have played exciting innovative football." I obviously missed all that wonderful football his Swindon, Southampton, Wolves teams played. Also, what were those great matches that England played under his management that were so innovative and exciting?

Also, out of curiosity, in Euro 96 which games except for the Holland match were magnificent? Was it the Switzerland, Scotland, Spain or Germany game that impressed you so much?
John Andrews
99   Posted 04/09/2010 at 15:29:09

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In a nutshell, No ? Moyes is not up to it. As you so rightly say, he is always pleading poverty.
Andy Crooks
100   Posted 04/09/2010 at 16:10:07

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Dave, is it your view that David Moyes is a better coach than Terry Venables? (By the way, I never said I would like him to be Everton manager). If so, on what do you base your opinion? Trophies won? Style of football?
Colin Grierson
101   Posted 04/09/2010 at 16:51:54

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We have a manager who has made some very astute buys and the team has been playing the best football of any Everton side since we last won the league.

I don't know how much money we do or don't have but I do know that Moyes is a safe pair of hands. How can we possibly compete in the transfer market against the rich clubs? Accept the team you supposedly support for what we are FFS!

Andy Crooks
102   Posted 04/09/2010 at 17:03:20

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Colin, supporting your team does not mean blind devotion. All of us want the best possible, we disagree on how to get it.
David Thomas
103   Posted 04/09/2010 at 19:00:44

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Andy,

I forgot El Tel was the one who was going to search the globe for us and then find us that innovative football manager Glenn Hoddle. This is of course after we get rid of the manager who has taken us from a club near the bottom of the league to a club regularly playing European football and with players such as Fellaini and Arteta in our team instead of Stephen Hughes and Mark Pembridge.

What an excellent plan. NOT.
Dennis Stevens
104   Posted 04/09/2010 at 20:58:36

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I notice that most of the reasoning for Moyes not being replaced seems to be based upon what he has achieved to date & the only expectation going forward seems to be that Moyes doesn't get us relegated & hopefully he keeps us upper mid-table with fairly frequent forays into Europe.

The reason I think it would be appropriate to consider replacing Moyes is that I feel that if he cannot bring us any silverware with the squad he has now assembled then I doubt he ever will. Do any of those who wouldn't part with Moyes expect that he will ever lead us to victory in the Cup or to be League Champions?

Surely you don't advocate keeping a manager who is unlikely to bring success merely because he "is a safe pair of hands" & so losing Moyes is too much of a risk?

Brendan McLaughlin
105   Posted 04/09/2010 at 21:34:28

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Sorry Dennis but thats a load of shite.

No pro-Moyes poster has EVER suggested that he should keep his job simply because he staves of relegation. Also "if he cannot bring us any silverware with the squad HE HAS NOW ASSEMBLED"...I mean do I even have to make the fucking point!

Dennis Stevens
106   Posted 04/09/2010 at 21:53:28

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I can only suggest you read the thread, Brendan, & perhaps consider the point you are making which seems to be that he deserves to be in the job because of the quality of the squad "HE HAS NOW ASSEMBLED", i.e. for what he has done.

In case you missed the "fucking" point, the thread is about whether Moyes has got "it", which for me means has he got what it takes to be successful, & I define success as winning some silverware. I'm increasingly doubtful that Moyes has "it" & suspect he will never lead us to winning a cup or title. If that is the case, then I would prefer to replace him with someone who can be successful.

I presume that as you didn't indicate that you do believe Moyes can deliver this succes, that you would prefer to stick with Moyes & be content with things as they are. That doesn't seem very ambitious to me, in fact I'd go so far as to say it's "a load of shite"!

Ped Pearl
107   Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:07:11

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Oh Dear, someone must be waiting for the new Championship Manager game to come out.
Jamie Tulacz
108   Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:06:20

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I think fans of most clubs would find it fairly ridiculous that we're even having this debate, as in the eyes of most people I speak to Moyes is one of the best managers in the league.

I think we need to be more realistic, that success in the league nowadays is largely based on a team's finances. With our finances being in the state they are I think we're punching well above our weight, as is shown by this recent value for money article
Brendan McLaughlin
109   Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:28:44

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OK Denis if its not a load of shite point me to a comment where someone has posted "Keep Moyes cos he won't get us relegated". You wont not on this thread nor indeed on any other.
As for your "praise" of the squad that Moyes has assembled do you not think it's a bit premature to write him off after only three games or perhaps the reality is that the "quality of the squad" is yet another stick with which to beat the manager.
Dennis Stevens
110   Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:29:04

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Maybe you're right, Jamie, perhaps it is ridiculous to hope that Everton may one day win some silverware. Perhaps those of us who are so ridiculously unrealistic should limit our ambitions to stable mediocrity we've become accustomed to under Moyes.
Dennis Stevens
111   Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:40:21

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Perhaps you need a magnifying glass, Brenda ? all the pro-Moyes comments are based around how he has moved us from relegation candidates to european challengers, how we would be down in the lower divisions without him, how he has revamped the squad, how he is a "safe pair of hands", that to replace him is a "risk". All based on what he has done that's been creditable & the jeopardy the club would be in without him.

Not one pro-Moyes comment that I've noticed has actually said that those of us who doubt he has got "it" & doubt he will be the managerial success for Everton that we'd like him to be are wrong to doubt him because he HAS got "it" & that they believe he WILL be successful & lead Everton to win cups & titles.

I'm not writing Moyes off after 3 games, in fact I'm not writing him off at all. I'm hoping he'll come back from the international break with a "the season starts against Manure" approach & leads the squad to our 10th Championship. Moyes is now in his 9th season in charge & has built a good squad in the time allowed him by the Board. My personal opinion is that if he cannot find success with this squad it seems doubtful to me that he ever will.

Brendan McLaughlin
112   Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:56:07

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Dennis#Earlier
Toffeeweb really needs to distinguish between posters with similar names. I mean there is also a Dennis Stevens on another thread titled "Optimism" funnily enough, talking about celebrating in May after a successful season. Now as you have already admitted that you are not "the Dennis Stevens" perhaps this other lad is!
Dennis Stevens
113   Posted 04/09/2010 at 23:07:48

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Brendan, I made the same point there as in the post above - I'm hoping Moyes will get our league season going against ManUre & that I'm able to look back & laugh at how foolish I was to begin to doubt him. I'm not willing Moyes to fail, I'm hoping he'll be successful - but I feel free to express my doubts & to contemplate the possibility that he isn't the Moyesiah, just a good football manager, albeit not one that is irreplaceable.
David Thomas
114   Posted 04/09/2010 at 23:08:57

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"I'm hoping he'll come back from the international break with a "the season starts against Manure" approach & leads the squad to our 10th Championship."

Don't you think we would all love Everton to win the league. It's a shame real life is not as easy as playing on Championship Manager.
Brendan McLaughlin
115   Posted 04/09/2010 at 23:14:14

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I wouldn't disagree with that Dennis.
Dennis Stevens
116   Posted 05/09/2010 at 01:54:42

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David, as you have rather quoted part of my post out of context I'm not too sure what your point is, other than for you to comment that it's eaasier playing on "Championship Manager" than living. I'm happy to accept your opinion on the matter, as it's not a game I've ever played - I presume it's some kind of video game & I've never seen the appeal of them.
Ray Roche
117   Posted 05/09/2010 at 08:59:42

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Dennis Stevens @110: "to stable mediocrity we've become accustomed to under Moyes."

Last season Everton played football that had The Sunday Times likening us to Barcelona. Yes, they did. We had Mick McCarthy say we were the best side Wolves faced as we "played and passed us (them) off the park". We outfought and out played Utd and Chelsea and City. Moyes has been lauded by his peers. Stable mediocrity? I think not.

And don't be offended if I don't respond to any replies you make to this.....I shall be away in Soller, Majorca doing a bit of walking...but I'm coming back early for the Utd game, something that went down like the Graf Zeppelin when I mentioned it!

Dennis Stevens
118   Posted 05/09/2010 at 10:45:52

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Moyes has moved us from potential relegation candidates to upper mid-table security with the occasional foray into Europe, but seems unlikely to actually lead Everton to win any silverware (let's hope he proves me wrong on that assessment).

Sometimes the play may be more stylish & sometimes it's certainly less than stylish; however, mediocrity is what we have. In fact, stable mediocrity rather sums up the Moyes era to date. Whilst that in itself is no mean feat & more than some of his predecessors managed to achieve, let's not delude ourselves into thinking of it as success.

Success means winning silverware & as yet Moyes has won us nothing, apart from some respect, perhaps. Even if you feel the term "stable mediocrity" understates what Moyes has achieved to date, do you believe he will take us to victory in a Wembley final, or lead us to be crowned Champions? As the original post asked : "Is Moyes Up to 'It'?"

Colin Grierson
119   Posted 05/09/2010 at 11:50:48

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Andy (102)
I accept that we all want the best for our club and of course we won't all agree on the best route for success. I just think that expectations ought to be a tad more realistic. However, surely we have seen enough clubs now try to overspend when they don't have the resources to do so. I do get that we could have used finance in the past to strengthen in different areas, but I still maintain that we have the best team we've had for decades.

Moyes has stabilised this club and allowed us to harbour the expectations that many on here have for us. I think we still need a little more time in order to challenge the rich clubs. I think we are going about it the right way. We should heed the lessons of Leeds, Portsmouth, West Ham to name but a few.

In reality, we are achieving what we can expect to achieve. If we make progress each year then our time will come in the not too distant future. Moyes IS a top manager who is well respected by EVERYBODY outside of this club. For me, it's a no brainer ? Of course he is up to the job.

Charles King
120   Posted 05/09/2010 at 11:38:44

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Ray #117.

These purple patches "playing like Barcelona" and so on beg the question "whats going on?" when we play like frightened rabbits.

If DM is applauded for the former he can't be absolved of responsibility for the latter, I'd argue playing with fear is a losing way of playing.

Hope Majorca's nice (jammy so and so).

Robbie Muldoon
121   Posted 05/09/2010 at 23:47:03

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Post #1 Joeseph, nail on the head maye I don't need to read anymore comments.
Jamie Rowland
122   Posted 07/09/2010 at 14:17:21

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Ray Roche #110

Spot on ? add to that list the mere fact that we OUTPLAYED Villa last week only to be unlucky to concede a silly goal.

At one point I have been told we had 83% possession... that's hardly mediocre.
Dennis Stevens
123   Posted 07/09/2010 at 17:09:58

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Jamie, post #110 was my post, in reply to yourself, I think. Your latest is a classic case of missing the point. We all know that the team can be outstanding for parts of matches, sometimes for a few matches in a row, but the question is whether Moyes has what it takes to turn that quality within the squad he's built into silverware. To date what he's delivered is mediocrity.

Under Moyes we don't look being in any danger of relegation, but neither do we look likely to lift any trophies; our performances are quite capable of veering from the sublime to the ridiculous & back again... we'll regularly challenge for Europe but won't always qualify. That's mediocre.

Jamie Tulacz
124   Posted 08/09/2010 at 23:17:40

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Dennis- fair enough I'm not disagreeing that we do show a lot of inconsistency, and I'm as frustrated as anyone that we can't get our act together at the start of each season.

I think probably if you looked at any other club at a similar level to us though, you'd probably see a similar inconsistency with some great performances and some rubbish ones. Just think on our budget and with so much being reliant on money nowadays it's unrealistic to expect much silverware.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree anyway!

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