Everyone knows the situation at our club ? we're skint and we operate a sell-to-buy policy. That policy is not a lot different to most other clubs. In an ideal world, I'd love someone to bankroll us and give Moyes an open chequebook but Everton's finances are what they are and I'm getting sick to death of Moyes crying poverty all the time.
Our team lacks balance and it currently lacks a goalscorer. We've allowed a decent centre-half to go out on loan, not recouping any money for him, and we've an unhappy striker who has a good goalscoring record not even making the bench. Moyes has stockpiled central midfielders and central defenders and still our team has no width. We have players surplus to requirement and no balance in the team.
So does Moyes have any clue about how to operate in the transfer market? Is it right that Moyes blames lack of finances all the time while we have to watch him play Osman, Bily or Rodwell on the right wing?
How wise a purchase was Bilyaletdinov in the first place? I'm not questioning whether he's good enough but whether he was needed. He's another player who apparently plays best centrally.
How wise a purchase was Heitinga? He's obviously a good player but last summer we were crying out for a pacey winger and a front man, so why spend £6.5 million on another central defender? Moyes does not seem to have any sense of priority over which areas of the team need strengthening.
This summer, Moyes has knocked back a £6 million bid for Yakubu, whose previous record is good but after suffering a serious injury, he has not done anything since to justify why he'd be worth more than £6 million. He's not even bothered to regain his fitness. So now we're left with an unhappy striker who is a massive gamble, 20-games-a-season Saha... and Beckford. Seriously, how many goals do you think those three will score this season? And then you've got Moyes moaning about our lack of goals!
Moyes has also just let Yobo leave pretty much on a free. Again how wise was this considering he knocked back a £14 million bid from Arsenal for Jagielka? Is there a big difference between those two players?
A lot of the crticisms aimed at Yobo could also be levelled at Jagielka. They're both pacey, they're both good tacklers and both have had good runs in the team. Yobo's defensive record deserves even more recognition bearing in mind he spent time in front of Richard Wright. They both like to hoof it are both error-prone. Yobo gave that awful pass to Rooney but we all saw Jags fall on his arse on Sunday when Villa broke and we all remember that awful pass to Ashley Young that lost us that infamous game at home to Villa. I think most of us agree anyway that Heitinga should be our first choice central defender when Moyes likes to play with a left-footed centre-half.
Ask yourselves, would you have kept Yobo and sacrificed Yakubu and Jagielka to raise £20 million? If we'd have lost those two, kept Yobo and bought a striker and a right winger (Donovan), would you have been unhappy? I think we'd be in a far better position now...
I think ultimately Moyes's stubbornness and inability to operate effectively in the transfer market will cost us any real hope of a top 6 finish. It is not Kenwright's fault that we still have Osman and Hibbert as first choice picks in our team.
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1 Posted 01/09/2010 at 20:45:10
He doesn't know what his best side is and has failed to instill a winning desire in his players, they look to me like they couldn't give two fucks when we lose... it's all too easy for players and manager to pick up their mega-wages and continue to aspire to mediocrity. My patience is close to breaking point.
We're now stuck with too many players who are past their best yet have secured long-term deals and we have Pienaar, who should've been shown the door in the summer at a cut price, now able to sign for Harry the twat in January and leave for nothing at the end of the season.
This should be DMs last season for me, we're now stuck in a rut and some fans seem to be scared to say we want more and ask for a more progressive attack-minded coach. The clock's ticking, Davie, and there's a lot of frustrated, disillusioned fans who've had enough.
Stop cosying up to Billy Bull and demand more 'cos it's just not good enough.
2 Posted 02/09/2010 at 14:44:00
Interesting that we were prepared to deplete our squad even further for such a low price, whilst leaving us very little time to sign a much needed striking replacement.
3 Posted 02/09/2010 at 14:37:23
My gripe is with the right side of midfield, and I cannot believe that Moyes has not addressed this problem.
We have had three different players in the league games so far, why he has not sorted the problem out is anybodys guess.
4 Posted 02/09/2010 at 14:51:26
This article also sums up the problem of having armchair managers with quotes such as:
"How wise a purchase was Heitinga? He's obviously a good player but last summer we were crying out for a pacey winger and a front man, so why spend £6.5 million on another central defender?"
Followed by quotes like:
"I think most of us agree anyway that Heitinga should be our first choice central defender when Moyes likes to play with a left-footed centre-half."
He was a wise purchase because we all agree that he's the best ball playing centre half we have.... does it really come as such a shock that a defence-first manager like Moyes improved his, er, defence?!?!
In addition, I don't know how many times the Donovan purchase is going to be fraught over and analysed. A blind man can see that MLS were never going to let him go ? didn't matter what we offered really, they want him there for their Championship Game or whatever they call it ? which is why we'll get him back in January.
5 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:14:40
6 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:10:22
Heitinger was a class buy. Given that we don't have a large squad and centre back cover was thin when Lescott left he was a solid purchase. One who could fill in midfield also.
I'm not in favour of selling your main men to bring in new, so no, selling Jags and Yakubu and keeping Yobo is full of pitfalls. Don't want to end up with a team of replacements which by your thinking Bily would fall into, and Heitinger and Distin due to the lescot sale...
And the last thing we need are more strikers!
To sum up my ramble, Donovan and any other purchase this window would have been a luxury buy and not needed in our financial position. Beneficial yes, but not needed. This is an era of make do and mend after all!
7 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:19:00
This is in no way a criticism of the players such as Bily, Heitinga nor even Felliani, but if could explain it in very basic terms, we had cover at centre back with 3 players who may be described at least as 6.5/10 - so adding Heitinga (an 8/10 player) only gives us value on our money of a 1.5 improvement.
In contrast, I would say that in attack, we have Saha who, partly because of his injury record, cannot be regarded as better than 7/10 by Premier League standards. All our other options are significantly worse. Accordingly, any investment in a striker, even if objectively a "worse" player than Heitinga would have been money comparatively well spent as we would have got more of an upgrade on our squad.
8 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:46:08
9 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:10:45
Sure he did it again last weekend!
Good article... I don't really have anything to add.
10 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:59:23
You say a "striker who has a good goalscoring record not even making the bench." I presume you are talking about the Yak? So not involving the Yak is one of your reasons for asking "is Moyes up to it" (Yak was injured for the huddersfield and villa games).
However, you then go to say "he has not done anything since to justify why he'd be worth more than £6 million. He's not even bothered to regain his fitness. So now we're left with an unhappy striker who is a massive gamble".
Also, as Lee said you seem the question the signing of Heitinga and then suggest he is our best defender.
You seem to be having a go at Moyes for not involving the Yak and then on the other hand suggesting the Yak is unfit and not worth a place.
11 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:18:51
You point out that we knocked back 14 million for Jagielka and then effectively let Yobo go on a free. You then have to ask is there a big difference between these two players? Hmmmm...let me think!
12 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:19:20
in no particular order
13 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:15:48
Going back to the original point, no he isn't up to it as he's not going to stay for much longer unless Everton receive some serious investment and he has enough money to spend. Moyes is capable of playing only one style and struggles to identify problems and change them. Saha shouldn't be playing on his own up front and he doesn't get any support.
The main weakness Moyes has is his inability to win big games. He has a useless record against Liverpool despite Moyesy supposedly being better than him well not if you read their head to head stats except the Clattenburg fiasco.
As Everton don't have any money I'd say we can rule out Sven. If I had the choice of a new manager, I'd choose Martin Jol as he's been impressive wherever he's managed.
14 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:24:44
15 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:05:56
So does Moyes have any clue as to how to operate in the transfer market?
Yeah. He does.
Arteta - £2m
Cahill - £1.5m
Lescott - bought for £5m, sold for £23m
Johnson - bought for £8.5m, sold for £10.5m
Tim Howard - £3m
Steven Pienaar - £2m
Jagielka - £4m, recently had bid of £14m rejected
Saha - free
Yobo - £4m, 7 years service, not bad
McFadden - bought for £1.25m, sold for £5m
So is he perfect? No (Jo). Is he better than most? Yes. But to answer the question, does he have a clue? He does.
16 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:33:18
17 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:33:08
His seemingly inability to change is definately a downside to his management. Why stick with regular players like Osman, Hibbert, Neville, Cahill, etc when we have far better players sitting on the bench like Coleman and Rodwell?
It's obvious Everton have to sell to buy but it seems he doesn't want to sell players. I hate to say it but he needs to be a bit more like Harry Redknapp and try wheeler-dealing. Why keep players when offered money like the Yakubu situation when you are not going to play them anyway?
Everyone at the club and all the fans know that right-midfield has been our problem position for a while now. Therefore why has he not tried to address this? He should have moved heaven and earth for Donovan this summer. As proved in the World Cup, Donovan is one of the most effective players in the world who was crying out to come to Goodison, but yet he may never grace our turf again now. Everton should have said name your price and then sold players like Yakubu, Osman, Yobo early enough to generate the money to buy him. Even if we still couldn't get Donovan, we should have gone for another winger with pace. McGeady went to Russia for £10m, we could have sold Yak and Yobo to get McGeady but yet again nothing happens and we are left with no winger yet again for another season.
18 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:45:11
Personally I would like to have seen Vaughan, Yobo and Bily go and the money spent on a good, young striker who is capable of scoring goal's, has pace and has a good injury record as our strikeforce is full to the brim of sicknotes.
I think his record as a talent spotter may be second only to Wenger, but his record as a wheeler dealer isn't that great. Probably because he obviously hates having to do this.
19 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:49:01
How many quality players can you buy for £1M these days?
Or are you suggesting Moyes should've stripped the squad even bearer to raise enough funds?
Donavan wouldve been great, but the MLS aren't daft and probably demanded £12-15M for him. We can't even afford £1.5M. Who's fault is that?
Post #14 sumarises exactly how good Moyes is in the transfer market.
Bill K riding the coat tails of Moyes. FULLSTOP
Our most high profile signing was a freebie from a team who just got promoted from the third tier. Do you think Moyes wants to operate with these constraints? Or is he just trying to do the best with the hand he's been dealt.
20 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:49:45
I said on another thread about the loan of Yobo, can't understand it at all. Makes no sense and what is going on with Yakubu is baffling!
Where I would disagree is the bit about Jags/Yobo. As much as Jags tends to hoof it he's a great defender. If Moyes has the balls to play him and Jonny together I think it will bring the best out of Jags, as he can just pass it to JH and let him distribute it.
I think the reason why we bought JH last year was we were short on numbers with injuries and he can play in various positions (Moyesie's favourite type of player).
21 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:02:29
22 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:03:25
But then again not many managers have to deal with chairman as bad as Bill Kenwright.
Only when Moyes is given funds to compete, can he be judged fairly.
23 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:35:35
24 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:49:43
25 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:07:26
26 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:01:12
The negative attitude of the coach has somehow afflicted some of the supporters who are now happy to settle for mediocrity. Our motto should now be "well it could be worse you know". I prefer the original.
27 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:03:06
28 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:44:04
29 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:38:48
I thought Arteta was poor against Villa and both he and Saha need to show more effort and urgency very soon.
This squad should be good enough to finish no lower than 7th (because we don't have European games to worry about). Nevertheless, I know we are only 3 games in, but if we finish in a Europa League place and win either the League Cup or FA Cup, then I will regard that as success. No chance at all of a Champions League slot.
Good piece from you, Alan; thought provoking, and as usual I have failed to provoke my thoughts in the right direction. COYB
30 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:59:32
And to criticise his transfer record- even the best make a few duff signings, eg SAF signing Anderson, Hargreaves, Carrick and Nani (all around £15-20m) and also Kleberson and Djemba Djemba a while back
31 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:09:21
32 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:54:03
I don't, however, agree with you on the players you brought up.
I think Jags is one of the finest centre halves in this league, and when he fully gets his confidence back following the cruciate, he will be a rock again.
Heitinga has also been a brilliant signing. Equally at home at centre half or midfield, his winning mentality and absolute quality on the ball have been a breath of fresh air...he is captain material, not sale material.
No, when we are looking at players to cash in - and we should have - there are plenty of suspects ahead of them.
In mid-range terms, and with a realistic re-sale value, you have to be looking at Yobo, Yakubu and Bilyaletdinov . The one people won;t have that I would certainly add to that list is Tim Cahill.
Now, IMO, the sale of those 4, for realistic, enticing, prices would have realised something like £20m.
The problem you then have though is you are depleting numbers. To IMPROVE the team on those terms, you would be looking at a 4 for 2 swap with a pair of £10m fees. Obviously the wages would be a saving because you are also shipping out some high earners there.
Now personally, i'd be comfortable with that. I like to take risks and I think given the versatility of several of our squad, the risk would be minimal. With that money we could have then brough in a proper right-sided player - Landon for arguments sake - (who also doubles as a striker lets not forget) and a decent centre forward to add further competition.
Rodwell could then justify his contract by playing week in, week out in Cahill's position, and should he need a breather, you have the options of putting Pienaar in there and Magaye on the left or even bringing Ossie in to play either of those roles. No problem.
Alternatively though, if you don't wish to deplete numbers, then IMO you have to be looking at Fellaini or Rodwell.
Quite simply, I cannot see how Moyes is going to play both of these players in the same team on a regular basis. Now, I know it may not *seem* a good thing to be selling your top young talents, but you also have to tally that with reality. Is Moyes likely to bomb Cahill out and play the clearly superior footballer in Rodwell? No...it's not his style. So therefore, you have to accept, that for large parts of the season, we are going to have a £20m saleable asset sat on the bench.
Now whilst some people would undoubtedly say that shows we are 'strong' and have a 'squad'...I would argue that it is plain fucking stupid.
You build your SQUAD when you have a TEAM.
Everton FC is not in a position to have £30-40m of players on the bench and in the stands when we dont have a single solitary right sided midfield player or a really serious centre forward. It is utter stupidity.
As Alan rightly says, we are overloaded in certain areas and ridiculously thin on the ground in others...not even thin on the ground actually, just completely threadbare.
For all the stick Kenwright rightly gets, Moyes has had an AWFUL summer in the market.
It's alright people listing names like Cahill, Arteta, Lescott, Jags etc.....he has signed those players over a number of years.
Cahill is past his sell by date, Lescott has gone, Jags has snapped his cruciate etc.
This is the risk you run with your steady away approach, great that we have signed good players...but when you do it so slowly, you are forever "just 2 or 3 players away from challenging".
At the current rate, we will have a right winger, a proper player to replace Cahill in the hole and a decent frontman when Mikel is celebrating his 35th birthday and Jack Rodwell is signing his 3rd contract with Manchester United.
And once again....we'll just be "2 or 3 players away from challenging".
Moyes is too one dimensional, too old school,and frankly...too fucking slow to get things done.
He is a good manager,but an A,B,C manager. Right now, as far as I can see, he is taking us nowhere and personally I would welcome a change. Fresh impetus, fresh ideas and someone who could come in and shake things up and not be frightened to ship out some of the 'established' deadwood.
33 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:49:47
He does it this time every year over something, sulking or dithering over : buying, selling etc..... Looking depressed whilst bemoaning our lack of funds and ignoring our lack of balance with those he does buy.
I mean how long did it take him to sign his "Kings Ransom" of a contract while tranfer targets came & went and the team was rudderless when the season started, after the Lescott debacle?
I mean, FFS, did anyone see his post match interview last Sunday!?! Same old, same old I'm afraid, though as ever he'll eventually realise he's stuck with us & pull his finger out... but not until we've lost too many points to make 4th !
34 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:14:07
Get a grip! Moyes is a good manger, perhaps a very good manager, but will he'll prove to be a great manager? Sadly, I doubt it.
As far as I can see, he's built a squad that has shown how good it can be & the onus is on him to get the best out of that squad, but I fear he'll fall short this season. If that should prove to be the case then I struggle to see how we'll progress any further under his managership & would be happy to see a change... but I'm sure we won't get one.
35 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:17:31
36 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:22:09
"We`ve allowed a good player to go on loan" "without recouping any money for him" ? what? Isn't that how it works?
"How good a buy was Heitinga?" ... "he`s obviously a good player" ... Sorry? Your point is?
You then whine "We have an unhappy striker with a goal scoring record not even making the bench" ... followed by ... "he`s done nothing to justify his worth" ...and then ... "he hasn't even bothered to regain his fitness"!!!
I lost count of the number of times you contradicted yourself.
37 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:40:33
The question you ask, Ray, is asked so often by DM's admirers that my answer would be: appoint Alan Stubbs as caretaker and pay Terry Venables to find the best coach that £3.5 million a year can buy. If he found that we already had him, I would be amazed.
38 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:51:32
Earlier in the year, I wrote an article suggesting we cash in on Jagielka; you called me a madman. You now seem to be questioning why we didnt sell him ?
Either you are contradicting yourself again, or you`ve realised he is living on his performances against lady boy, two seasons ago.
Can it really be that the penny has taken six months to drop?
39 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:02:35
40 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:44:54
Unfortunately he is not and in trying to do his best for the club under the most extreme financial restrictions he is now coming in for flack from some quarters because we havent lived up to expectations for the first three games (actually 2 because we were very unlucky to lose at Villa).
Now all the armchair experts are out in force questioning a manager with Moyes pedigree.
People have very short memories in fact I bet some of you were predicting we'd win the league before the season started.
Before you force Moyes to rethink his involvement with the club I would take you back to Walter Smith, a very successful manager with Rangers and Scotland who made us such a major force under Kenwright. In fact we were such a major force we nearly got relegated twice.
As other posters have said WHO the hell would you get to replace Moyes operating under a zero budget.
While Kenwright is here I wouldnt risk any other manager because Moyes is the only one to make a silk purse out of Sows ears.
Why do you think Moyes made a big point of stating that we couldnt afford Donovan while he was trying to address the wide issue with £900k Gueye? That is the extent of the Board's ambition and that is why we struggle to keep up while Kenwright is running the show.
41 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:19:28
42 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:08:29
The money excuse has always been a favourite of the apologists when things aren't going to plan, but for me this season, there can be no excuses.
All pre-season we have had it rammed down our throats that we have one of the best squads in the Prem, we have one of the best midfields in the Prem (Some have said it is the best), we have been touted as title contenders on here, deffo top 4 etc. For me, all this talk pre - season has been a huge plus, because now, all the apologists cannot use excuse after excuse, if things aren't going our way.
43 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:39:39
But there is also no one else who is who is either available or willing.
44 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:31:54
Not quite sure how Moyes is supposed to resolve the areas of weakness in the squad when we can't even afford to loan a pot to piss in!
The only reason we have one of the best midfields in the league now is because Moyes has somehow managed to build it up on a net transfer budget of about £2m a year.
45 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:53:13
Now, if we were playing in a way that maximised our strengths (i.e. 4-2-3-1) then this would not be that relevant (many top class teams play without width), but for some strange reason our manager seems to have nailed his underpants to the 4-5-1 tree and won't budge. This then leads him to play accomplished players out of position. This not only neuters their effectiveness, it results in avoidable problems caused when these players stray into their natural territory and leave gaps which opponents exploit.
If we had a couple of speed merchants to fill wide positions then there's a debate to be had. But we don't. Thus I sit, wait & pray for the circumstances to arrive that finally force Moyes' hand to play 4-2-3-1 and allow the players to better express themselves and, I fully expect, to achieve better results.
This has nothing to do with funds. Funds will always (well, almost always) result in improvement. But we have a very talented squad of players and Moyes has chosen all of them. One assumes he has a game plan in mind. But it isn't always that obvious.
46 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:02:16
Also, I thought (well it was before the season started) it was only the right side of midfield that was our problem?
47 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:06:49
Nothing to apologise for. It was what it was.
I guess I was also persuaded by our manager's musings and analysis as a world cup pundit, his effusive praise for the style & retention of Spain play, and his new found openness for tactical fluidity.
Yet here we are AGAIN, 3 games in, none against "top" sides, 8 points dropped and a disjointed and unbalanced look about the team on the pitch. I truly did not expect to see us playing 4-5-1 for the simple reason that we do not have the players to make it work well.
Anyway, my wager at 250-1 now looks romantic & foolhardy. I guess that'll teach me to appreciate that sometimes 2+2=3.
48 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:13:37
"We won't win the title with Bingham, he's not up to it, we should fuck him off"
Now I think you need to be specific about the 'it' in "Is Moyes up to it?".
The reason I say this, is because it seems to me that the 'it' has become different for Evertonians over the past 15-20 years (see TW...every day)
For some, 'it' is top-half finishes, possibly europa and possibly, the pinnacle - 4th.
Is he up to that?
Absolutely - he's already proved he is.
(mainly top half, couple of 5ths a 4th etc)
Within this 'it', his buys have been in the main the right players and his dealings in the transfer market, generally good.
If the 'it' however is winning things, being tactically smart, being imaginative, creative and unpredictable (nb: in a good way) then the answer is no.
Unlike Jay, I believe he wouldn't do any better with money, simply because I don't believe he has the imagination.
Lack of imagination is not a crime by the way - as a person, he has many of the traits that make fantastic members of society.
I believe him to be honest, straight-forward, hard-working and sincere
The opposite of say a slippery twat like Harry Redknapp.
But I think Redknapp is a 'cannier' manager.
Craftier (shiftier if you prefer) but definitely more imagination and flexibility.
Even Moyes biggest supporters can't deny that often we have performed better when his choices have been limited or forced on him by injury, suspension or players leaving.
So for me, he hasn't got 'it'.
And are my expectations unrealistic?
49 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:27:26
50 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:21:24
51 Posted 02/09/2010 at 22:11:44
I'm seriously impressed how you have shoehorned your 4-2-3-1 opinion in to every single thread for the best part of 3 weeks.
52 Posted 02/09/2010 at 22:20:09
Dennis, I haven't stated that Moyes is the best manager in the world, but he IS a manager who has transformed the playing staff he took over into one that is, arguably, the best pound for pound squad in the Prem. Last week I quoted the team he put out against Fulham in his first match in charge and invited comment but no-one rose to the challenge. An idiot could see the improvement.
Dennis, I KNOW Moyes isn't the best manager in the world. But for Christ's sake, let's give credit where it's due. We've gone from perrenial relegation fodder to a team that's challenging for a European adventure most seasons. And last season we played some terrific football. Moyes has been lauded by his peers on several occasions in winning the Manager Of The Year award.
I can't understand why some of the talent on this thread haven't also managed at the top level.
Andy Crooks @37.
Terry Venables? Dear God in Heaven. I could lose the will to live.... still, at least you've come up with a name. No-one else could.
53 Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:45:41
Fair enough- I was one of those hoping for a decent season this season, though the championship was always unrealistic and I don't think many people were seriously expecting that. If you look at the league table only 2 or 3 sides have started off well, so all's definitely not lost yet
Let's at least give it more than 3 games of the season though, as we normally start the season off slowly and come on stronger later on. It's pretty frustrating that this always seems to be the case, but I don't think we can expect to make progress every season when we don't have the funds to bring in top players whilst most of the sides above us do.
54 Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:47:01
If Beckford scores 5 goals this season I will eat my hat. A fight between us and Villa for 7th place methinks
55 Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:33:32
Jags is getting slated, the lad had a serious injury and even said in pre-season, mentally he feels his knee is going to give in. Likewise Fellaini is probably taking it easy with his ankle. Both these players are outstanding team players and managed by an outstanding manager.
However, Moyes has to look no further than Capello's indecisions and poor formation to understand that sometimes a player can't just play anywhere. Each player is a cog in a wheel that needs to perform effectively to put everything in motion.
So, if the best player on the right available is, in his opinion, Osman, then he should stick to that decision and so on throughout the team.
This is now a different era for Moyes as a Manager he has never had this quality of squad, i reckon he's made the mistake of thinking they'll just turn up and get the 3 points.
Moyes has to mould this 25-man squad into an effective machine, with everyone in the right position and any changes during a game or through injuries/suspension are like for like. He's had chance to gather his thoughts and despite his stubbornness, which every great manager has had by the way, he also learns and develops his trade.
Moyes will come through, as will the team, I have no doubt, in what is the toughest league to compete in.
56 Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:59:59
I'm certainly not trying to diminsh what Moyes has achieved at Everton with minimal financial backing, but to offset that, he has been given time. In fact he is the longest serving manager at Everton not to have lead the team to any silverware.
As you quite rightly say he's transformed the squad & we can, at times, play great football. However, the question now is whether Moyes can use that squad to actually win something.
I fully appreciate what he's done so far, but I wonder if he can do any more. If the best he can offer is to try & maintain Everton as an upper mid-table club with occasional forays into Europe then that should not be satisfying the ambitions of the supporters, players or Board, or even Moyes himself.
I would love to see Moyes emerge as a truly great manager & lead us into a new era of success, but I just find it increasingly hard to believe he has it in him. If you do think he has "it" then I hope that I end up being pleasantly surprised, rather than you being disappointed.
By the way, I don't think it's all that smart to imply that somebody is an idiot just because they disagree with you, especially when the basis for your comment isn't really borne out by what I'd actually written, perhaps it's idiotic of me to expect people to actually read the posts they reply to.
57 Posted 03/09/2010 at 00:15:11
It's 2002. We are where we are, Smith has gone.
Who would you have rather we appointed, and if we had appointed them where do you think we would be now?
And - do you think they would still be with us now...?
58 Posted 03/09/2010 at 00:34:04
As you said "we are where we are", Moyes is here now & the question is whether he has what it takes to start winning some silverware, preferably the Title. You may feel that's an unrealistic ambition for Everton, but surely the only true sporting ambition is to be the best.
59 Posted 03/09/2010 at 00:56:35
Romantic and foolhardy - that's what makes us special :0) If we take that away then we would be like supporters of other teams !!
60 Posted 03/09/2010 at 01:12:06
61 Posted 03/09/2010 at 02:01:09
Lets say we take Moyes into the boardroom on Monday and say:
"David, given where we were in 2002 we think you have been the ideal choice as manager, but for all you have done for us this is where we part company - we think we can, and deserve better. Good luck in whatever you choose to do next".
Is that a risk you, as Chairman, would be prepared to take / make?
And who - in 2010 - given where we are, who would you appoint to take us to the Title?
62 Posted 03/09/2010 at 02:37:47
Hoofballl anyone? That is "far more direct" and Moyes gets canned for it!
63 Posted 03/09/2010 at 07:14:26
We let slip a good oportunity to put Villa under pressure with our tactics last weekend. Going into that match on the back of a 0-6 defeat at Newcastle and a 2-3 home loss to Rapid Vienna I would have thought the Villa defence would have been lacking a bit of confidence ? especially after the way Carroll had caused so many problems for them up at St James Park ? surely the simple tactic of putting a lot of crosses into their penalty area would have given their back 4 a severe test.
Once again it was a case of safety first and caution. Anti-Moyes? No I am not ? it's more a case of being against predictable tactics. I hope that Moyes shows more adventure and less caution ? it's as simple as that. Look at the stats: in 3 games we have conceded as many goals as Villa have in half a game, yet it is Villa who are higher in the table and have 2 wins to their name ? whilst we have yet to get off the mark.
In my opinion, if David Moyes maintains his cautious approach it will cost us any chance of a "top 6 challenge". And look at it like this ? if you are a striker at Everton, you know that if DM plays his usual formation, then you have a good chance of spending time on the bench. What is the point of having so many good strikers if you only ever start with one in a match?
64 Posted 03/09/2010 at 08:18:28
Firstly, I wasn't suggesting that Terry Venables should ever be Everton manager. My suggestion was that, in the event of DM going to Villa, Venables should be consulted on finding a replacement. Is it really something you would want to leave to Bill Kenwright? Wasn't David Moyes appointed on the advice of Walter Smith?
The point I was trying to make was that I as a supporter know a bit about Everton but not enough about world football to come up with a list of possible candidates. Venables is one of the finest coaches Britain has produced ? what would be wrong with paying him for advice?
By the way Ray if I was to suggest who I would really like to see as coach I would dread to see the reaction of you and Brendan.
65 Posted 03/09/2010 at 09:04:11
66 Posted 03/09/2010 at 09:32:09
67 Posted 03/09/2010 at 10:04:40
If "It" means is he a loser in that he produces teams that get relegated or get their arses kicked on a regular basis - then yes he does have "It" because that doesn't happen.
However, if "It" means is he a manager who produces teams that WIN leagues, cups etc - then No he doesn't have "It".
Call me old fashioned, sentamentalist etc but I would also say that he doesn't have "It" because the history books I believe will show that his teams lacked the style, adventurous play that once used to be expected at Goodison.
Put another way, would players like Limpar, Kanchelskis et al have flourished or for that matter even have been played under DM ? Or would he have been horrified by their lack of "tracking back" ?
68 Posted 03/09/2010 at 10:41:19
i hardly think that it's a "ridiculous & pointless challenge" to invite someone to name a successor to Moyes. If people can only criticise Moyes with no solution then maybe it would be better if they said nothing, don't you think? I too would love Moyes to bring us trophies, possibly like yourself, I remember the wonderful 1960's and great palyers like Young, Vernon, etc. and it would be great to revisit those days and give the younger fans an idea of what it was like.
But I think that had Moyes not arrived we would have been a Championship side, or worse, right now with no chance of getting back to the Prem. Incidentally, I was not referring to you as an idiot, merely pointing out that only an idiot could not, or would not, credit Moyes with greatly improving our squad.
Don't get me wrong, I am sometimes baffled by Moyes team selection and certainly substitutions, but overall I think he has been as good as we could have had in his tenure. And there is still no-one prepared to answer the ridiculous and pointless question, probably because no-one can come up with a better manager.' It's dead easy to criticise.
Are you the REAL Dennis Stevens?
Andy Crooks @64
Go on, Andy. Name him. You know you want too.
69 Posted 03/09/2010 at 11:35:01
70 Posted 03/09/2010 at 11:24:17
Beausejour to Birmingham for around £4m.
I recall him being part of a quite magnificent and free-flowing Chilean attack at the World Cup, I'm also under the impression that he is a winger too.
I think the brummies are going to have one heck of a player on their hands at a snip of a price.
Being just the sort of player we need at such an apparently agreeable price and who, presumably, was touted around by his agent, the question on my mind has been: Why on earth weren't we able to buy him?
The answer I feel lies squarely at the Chairman's door, not the manager's.
How can lack of funds simply be dismissed as an "excuse" for not taking us further by Moyes's detractors? I would say that lack of funds constitutes a fully fledged 'reason' as to why improvement is a virtual impossibility.
A £1.5million summer transfer budget? That used to be acceptable in the 80's. Who exactly would use that money more wisely so as to take us to the next level? Mourinho? Redknapp? Can't see it myself. Wenger? Ok, maybe. But maybe not, not coming here anyway so totally irrelevant.
Is Moyes up for it? Could he win us all that we dream of? In my my opinion most definitley 100% yes, just give the man some funds!
Over to you Chairman and board, the real question is are you up for it?
71 Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:09:38
72 Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:39:24
i haven't been so frustrated with an Everton manager since the late 1970s and Gordon Lee changed a fine attacking team. We went from being top scorers in 1977-78 with 77 goals and 3rd place to a very distant 4th and 25 goals less the next season. Lee was obsessed with so-called hard working players and let McKenzie go replacing him with Wlash!!!
Moyes is obsessed with 4-5-1 and doesn't seem to know how to get the best from the creative/attacking players in his squad. The excuse of not having enough funds is wearing thin ? it is not having enough creative ambition in his tactics that's to blame.
73 Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:49:23
74 Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:50:39
Response : insane
75 Posted 03/09/2010 at 14:54:05
I can just see BK handing over a load of dosh to Tel 'awite ma san' Venables.
"Here's some cash, Terry, go and find us a new coach".
"Fackin' 'ell Bill", he says, sporting the cheesiest cockney grin on his face that you can imagine. "Sawted".
76 Posted 03/09/2010 at 14:55:43
77 Posted 03/09/2010 at 15:27:33
78 Posted 03/09/2010 at 15:49:44
Now, for all Moyes has achieved in the last 8 years, to suggest that he is irreplaceable is plainly nonsense ? if he really was that good, Kenwright would have found it impossible to hang on to him.Let me turn your Boardroom scenario around a little, Mike: if, come the season's end, we've finished upper mid-table again & there seems little prospect of further progress under Moyes, would you give him another season, & another, & so on? At what point do you decide that a change of manager is necessary to build the club further on the foundations Moyes has laid?
Or is your loyalty to Moyes such that you'd have him here for life ? comfortably upper mid-table, occasionally in Europe, never winning anything. You both seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't contemplate changing manager in search of success for fear of failure; however, what that may well mean is just settling for mediocrity instead.
I am now doubtful that Moyes does have "it", that he will ever lead Everton to success ? which is a great shame as I think he deserves success after what he has achieved, but we don't always get what we deserve.
By the way Ray, I am merey 'a' Dennis Stevens, not 'the' Dennis Stevens.
79 Posted 03/09/2010 at 16:42:58
You're too modest.
80 Posted 03/09/2010 at 16:51:15
81 Posted 03/09/2010 at 17:17:30
Perhaps Harry could give him some guidance.
Think you lost the plot on that one pal.
82 Posted 03/09/2010 at 17:26:01
83 Posted 03/09/2010 at 18:43:35
I quote verbatim the Echo:
"Yobo made just nine starts after that, proving that hell hath no fury like a Scottish manager scorned"
The Echo clearly think this strikes a chord with Evertonians, strong Moysie etc etc. but highlights the divergence for me. I hope this is bollocks because it's desperate stuff if correct... Yobo should have been sold in these circumstances and the transfer money but to some use. Reeks of small minded pettiness.
84 Posted 03/09/2010 at 19:05:10
Would I like Glenn Hoddle to be the next Everton manager? With my limited knowledge of world football I reckon there are better out there. That is my point; I am qualified, after nine years watching Everton, to have an opinion on David Moyes but not to pick an alternative.
Incidentally, David Thomas, why would it be April 1st to suggest that as far as coaching goes the admirable David Moyes is not, nor never will be, in the same league as Terry Venables?
85 Posted 03/09/2010 at 22:25:59
"That is my point, I am qualified..."
I must remember to "doff my cap" and "tug my forelock" if I ever feel bold enough to engage with you in future.
86 Posted 03/09/2010 at 22:45:40
I want trophies as much as the next fan but sadly I dont live in Football Manager land. In my world Lionel Messi does not play for Everton and Bill Kenwright has f*ck all to invest in EFC.
87 Posted 03/09/2010 at 23:25:03
Agreed. But add in 9 years of achieving nothing worth mentioning except a reputation for hoofball that sees us last on MotD every week and perhaps you have more of a case.
He'll never be a great manager because his only skill is bullying a poor team into believing they're good enough to avoid relegation. He has no tactical ability, can't do substitutions, and wouldn't know an attacking line-up if he fell over it. He's arrogant, stubborn, vindictive and fails to learn from his mistakes. Almost every thread for the past 3 weeks has shown up one or another of his failings.
Moyes must go. Money will make no difference. He just can't 'do' success.
I've got fed up with waiting for him to win something. Right now I'm waiting for him to just win a league match and I think I'll still be waiting by mid October.
88 Posted 04/09/2010 at 02:09:27
89 Posted 04/09/2010 at 02:15:06
He has his good points and he restored some pride into being an evertonian again after the Walter Smith disaster.
However this season has already been an embarrassment.
1. His terrible transfer dealings. Now before you scream yes but he has £0 to spend, don't forget big money was offered for Jagielka which should have been taken. His value will never be higher and could be easily replaced. Committed pro yes talented defender definitely not. Letting Yobo, a player of similar ability, Go for nothing was short sighted. There could have been funds there. However the last £15m was wasted on Distin and Bily. Now don't get me wrong Bily is a decent player but was simply not what we needed. We have to be careful with the little we have.
2. The embarrassing lack of a Plan B if we concede a girl. Seriously we have talented players now so what the hell is going wrong? The lack of imagination is a disgrace.
3. Moyes does not know his best team. players are constantly being played out of position. Osman, Cahill, Anichebe, Rodwell, Bily and before them A.johnson & Radzinski were all played wide right. WHY!? why not address this problem area!? It has been 8 years after all! We need a settled first XL with players in their natural positions.
This is the season Moyes can be judged on & I think so far he is failing miserably. I hope he can turn it around and for once become proactive instead of reactive. We have a squad which is talented and big enough to challenge the top 4 and anything less than that should enforce a change at the top.
90 Posted 04/09/2010 at 07:34:48
I think you're firmly in the "Anti-Moyes" camp after your offering. Can you imagine the flak he'd take for selling Jags? Moyes, selling the current England centre half! Everton, SELLING CLUB!
We're trying to build a team, not dismantle one, and I know the £14m or whatever could be invested in more players but how much do you think Moyes would have got? "Oh shit, the transfer window's closed" says Bill, as the money disappears down the back of his sofa.
91 Posted 04/09/2010 at 07:49:27
The third suggestion is that Yobo and the Jag are in some way comparable as centre halves. This is absolute nonsense that some are using as a stick to beat the manager with. Yobo was at one point about 3-4 seasons ago a very good defender who was prone to the occasional lapse. The past few years he has been a liability in the Titus Bramble mould and the worst hoofball merchant in a team full of them. Jagielka is nowhere near his best at the moment, but he is getting there and will by mid-October be as sharp as he was prior to his career threatening injury when he was the best defender in the Premier League.
I personally feel there were issues with the side that should have been addressed in this transfer window, but I can see that maybe Moyes didn't see that as the case or that the wage bill is as high as it can possibly be, which meant that we had to either lose players or stay as we are? I don't think there is a manager in the world that would not take the opportunity to strengthen his team if it were an option, which once again points us towards the board.
For me, the other accusations aimed at him don't stand up to analysis ? he can't change a game because his subs are poor, yet we were the side that took the most point's last season from a losing position. I have to admit this surprised me because I do agree that they appear to be baffling in a lot of cases, yet the stats say he's right and I'm wrong.
Overall, I think his positives still outweigh.
92 Posted 04/09/2010 at 10:16:24
I dont care where we are on MotD. For the first time in many years, I actually enjoy watching the side and we have good players. We are not going to win the league unless some multi-billion sheikh pours money into the club. At that point, we will have our choice of great managers and yes, perhaps Moyes could be succeeded by someone better.
With our limited resources, Moyes is the best option. His past record proves this.
93 Posted 04/09/2010 at 10:22:50
What exactly is it that Terry Venables achieved as a head coach / manager that is so amazing?
Also, Hoddle has been a manager for longer than Moyes and has not won a major honour. So why would he be better than Moyes?
94 Posted 04/09/2010 at 10:47:06
95 Posted 04/09/2010 at 11:36:56
I have not asked you to give me an alternative to David Moyes.
You offered the names of Terry Venables and Glenn Hoddle. I am sure no one was holding you at gun point to type these names in your post.
I was simply interested to find out why you thought Glenn Hoddle and Terry Venables were such good coaches.
96 Posted 04/09/2010 at 13:20:48
I hope he leaves at the end of the season, on a free, he's been a good blue and doesn't deserve to be hung out for the first bid. I think maybe Moyes is hoping that, in that time, Bily will up his game and provide an instant replacement.
Right back or wing is a suspect area, but there's no one out there. Point proven by the amount of people putting Glen Johnson under pressure for his England shirt. He's appalling, yet a shoe-in for the team!!!
I'm not worried we didn't sign anyone; we didn't have to. I was glad we didn't let Rodwell go ? I was convinced he'd be a last-minute sale. He needs to play regularly, and in the right place.
97 Posted 04/09/2010 at 14:35:43
Glenn Hoddle: every team he has coached have played exciting innovative football. I admire David Moyes but the adjectives applied to him are different. Safe, conservative, unyielding, stubborn, dogmatic, negative, tight, safe, safe, safe.
98 Posted 04/09/2010 at 15:07:51
So... in almost 30 years of management, he has won one La Liga title with a club who was already successful when he took over... and suddenly he is this great coach?
"Glenn Hoddle: every team he has coached have played exciting innovative football." I obviously missed all that wonderful football his Swindon, Southampton, Wolves teams played. Also, what were those great matches that England played under his management that were so innovative and exciting?
Also, out of curiosity, in Euro 96 which games except for the Holland match were magnificent? Was it the Switzerland, Scotland, Spain or Germany game that impressed you so much?
99 Posted 04/09/2010 at 15:29:09
100 Posted 04/09/2010 at 16:10:07
101 Posted 04/09/2010 at 16:51:54
I don't know how much money we do or don't have but I do know that Moyes is a safe pair of hands. How can we possibly compete in the transfer market against the rich clubs? Accept the team you supposedly support for what we are FFS!
102 Posted 04/09/2010 at 17:03:20
103 Posted 04/09/2010 at 19:00:44
I forgot El Tel was the one who was going to search the globe for us and then find us that innovative football manager Glenn Hoddle. This is of course after we get rid of the manager who has taken us from a club near the bottom of the league to a club regularly playing European football and with players such as Fellaini and Arteta in our team instead of Stephen Hughes and Mark Pembridge.
What an excellent plan. NOT.
104 Posted 04/09/2010 at 20:58:36
The reason I think it would be appropriate to consider replacing Moyes is that I feel that if he cannot bring us any silverware with the squad he has now assembled then I doubt he ever will. Do any of those who wouldn't part with Moyes expect that he will ever lead us to victory in the Cup or to be League Champions?
Surely you don't advocate keeping a manager who is unlikely to bring success merely because he "is a safe pair of hands" & so losing Moyes is too much of a risk?
105 Posted 04/09/2010 at 21:34:28
No pro-Moyes poster has EVER suggested that he should keep his job simply because he staves of relegation. Also "if he cannot bring us any silverware with the squad HE HAS NOW ASSEMBLED"...I mean do I even have to make the fucking point!
106 Posted 04/09/2010 at 21:53:28
In case you missed the "fucking" point, the thread is about whether Moyes has got "it", which for me means has he got what it takes to be successful, & I define success as winning some silverware. I'm increasingly doubtful that Moyes has "it" & suspect he will never lead us to winning a cup or title. If that is the case, then I would prefer to replace him with someone who can be successful.
I presume that as you didn't indicate that you do believe Moyes can deliver this succes, that you would prefer to stick with Moyes & be content with things as they are. That doesn't seem very ambitious to me, in fact I'd go so far as to say it's "a load of shite"!
107 Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:07:11
108 Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:06:20
I think we need to be more realistic, that success in the league nowadays is largely based on a team's finances. With our finances being in the state they are I think we're punching well above our weight, as is shown by this recent value for money article
109 Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:28:44
As for your "praise" of the squad that Moyes has assembled do you not think it's a bit premature to write him off after only three games or perhaps the reality is that the "quality of the squad" is yet another stick with which to beat the manager.
110 Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:29:04
111 Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:40:21
Not one pro-Moyes comment that I've noticed has actually said that those of us who doubt he has got "it" & doubt he will be the managerial success for Everton that we'd like him to be are wrong to doubt him because he HAS got "it" & that they believe he WILL be successful & lead Everton to win cups & titles.
I'm not writing Moyes off after 3 games, in fact I'm not writing him off at all. I'm hoping he'll come back from the international break with a "the season starts against Manure" approach & leads the squad to our 10th Championship. Moyes is now in his 9th season in charge & has built a good squad in the time allowed him by the Board. My personal opinion is that if he cannot find success with this squad it seems doubtful to me that he ever will.
112 Posted 04/09/2010 at 22:56:07
Toffeeweb really needs to distinguish between posters with similar names. I mean there is also a Dennis Stevens on another thread titled "Optimism" funnily enough, talking about celebrating in May after a successful season. Now as you have already admitted that you are not "the Dennis Stevens" perhaps this other lad is!
113 Posted 04/09/2010 at 23:07:48
114 Posted 04/09/2010 at 23:08:57
Don't you think we would all love Everton to win the league. It's a shame real life is not as easy as playing on Championship Manager.
115 Posted 04/09/2010 at 23:14:14
116 Posted 05/09/2010 at 01:54:42
117 Posted 05/09/2010 at 08:59:42
Last season Everton played football that had The Sunday Times likening us to Barcelona. Yes, they did. We had Mick McCarthy say we were the best side Wolves faced as we "played and passed us (them) off the park". We outfought and out played Utd and Chelsea and City. Moyes has been lauded by his peers. Stable mediocrity? I think not.
And don't be offended if I don't respond to any replies you make to this.....I shall be away in Soller, Majorca doing a bit of walking...but I'm coming back early for the Utd game, something that went down like the Graf Zeppelin when I mentioned it!
118 Posted 05/09/2010 at 10:45:52
Sometimes the play may be more stylish & sometimes it's certainly less than stylish; however, mediocrity is what we have. In fact, stable mediocrity rather sums up the Moyes era to date. Whilst that in itself is no mean feat & more than some of his predecessors managed to achieve, let's not delude ourselves into thinking of it as success.
Success means winning silverware & as yet Moyes has won us nothing, apart from some respect, perhaps. Even if you feel the term "stable mediocrity" understates what Moyes has achieved to date, do you believe he will take us to victory in a Wembley final, or lead us to be crowned Champions? As the original post asked : "Is Moyes Up to 'It'?"
119 Posted 05/09/2010 at 11:50:48
I accept that we all want the best for our club and of course we won't all agree on the best route for success. I just think that expectations ought to be a tad more realistic. However, surely we have seen enough clubs now try to overspend when they don't have the resources to do so. I do get that we could have used finance in the past to strengthen in different areas, but I still maintain that we have the best team we've had for decades.
Moyes has stabilised this club and allowed us to harbour the expectations that many on here have for us. I think we still need a little more time in order to challenge the rich clubs. I think we are going about it the right way. We should heed the lessons of Leeds, Portsmouth, West Ham to name but a few.
In reality, we are achieving what we can expect to achieve. If we make progress each year then our time will come in the not too distant future. Moyes IS a top manager who is well respected by EVERYBODY outside of this club. For me, it's a no brainer ? Of course he is up to the job.
120 Posted 05/09/2010 at 11:38:44
These purple patches "playing like Barcelona" and so on beg the question "whats going on?" when we play like frightened rabbits.
If DM is applauded for the former he can't be absolved of responsibility for the latter, I'd argue playing with fear is a losing way of playing.
Hope Majorca's nice (jammy so and so).
121 Posted 05/09/2010 at 23:47:03
122 Posted 07/09/2010 at 14:17:21
Spot on ? add to that list the mere fact that we OUTPLAYED Villa last week only to be unlucky to concede a silly goal.
At one point I have been told we had 83% possession... that's hardly mediocre.
123 Posted 07/09/2010 at 17:09:58
Under Moyes we don't look being in any danger of relegation, but neither do we look likely to lift any trophies; our performances are quite capable of veering from the sublime to the ridiculous & back again... we'll regularly challenge for Europe but won't always qualify. That's mediocre.
124 Posted 08/09/2010 at 23:17:40
I think probably if you looked at any other club at a similar level to us though, you'd probably see a similar inconsistency with some great performances and some rubbish ones. Just think on our budget and with so much being reliant on money nowadays it's unrealistic to expect much silverware.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree anyway!
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