FAN ARTICLES
Bring Back Big Joe? Don't think so...
Comments (42) : Joe Royle took us from relegation fodder to FA Cup success and, the following season, a decent 6th place finish. However, only 12 months later he was gone and the club were too close to the wrong end of the table. Yes, he did have some hinderances:
- Peter Johnson
- Duff players bought by Walker and Kendall (Samways especially)
His man-management was highly impressive and The Dogs of War were testament to that. But his own signings (and he had a bigger budget than Moyes ever has had, relatively speaking) were sublime to the ridiculous. Kanchelskis and Speed were class. Barmby was disappointing. Short and Barrett uninspiring and incompetent at times. Why were we buying Short when Alan Stubbs was on the market at Bolton?
Yes we had some great games against Liverpool and Man Utd but there were some awful performances. Remember the shocking home defeat to Wimbledon? Away to Coventry? Away to Wimbledon? Away to Coventry? They were humiliating.
Also, back then there wasn't a Sky Four. There weren't four teams with massively larger spending power way in excess of the others. Man Utd, Blackburn, Liverpool, Newcastle, Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Villa and ourselves all had a few quid. Hence why we allegedly bid for Shearer and Collymore. Can you imagine David Moyes in the running for Berbatov or Tevez?
People criticise DM for being defensive but JR was just as stubborn with his use of the "big man" up top. When Rideout and Ferguson were injured or suspended at Loftus Road he opted for Angell and Barlow, leaving Amokachi on the bench. Unsurprisingly Angell was awful and our poor defending meant we went behind. Amo came on and changed the game. JR was a little behind the times tactics-wise.
His subsequent managerial posts have not exactly suggested we missed a trick although Man City treated him very poorly. Bringing him back now would be crazy as he is not equipped to deal with modern methods and coaching.
So my point? Joe Royle was a successful but limited manager with no real long-term design. He had funds and the jury is out on how he spent them. David Moyes is a successful and sometimes frustrating manager. He has a long term plan, not had great funding and certainly did not inherit the wealth of players Joe Royle did. Yes David Moyes was fortunate to have Rooney but there were no Limpars, Stuarts or Amokachis.
Therefore, things are admittedly not great but I sat through a strong and enjoyable performance today where we should have won. It beats my visits to the capital under Big Joe where we were agricultural and sometimes embarrassing. That aforementioned Fan Article is the kind of thing that leads to Howard Kendall Mk III. Need I say more?
Reader Comments (42)
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2 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:03:34
3 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:08:19
4 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:12:21
But fact remains that Royle subsequently did not set the world on fire - I love him but for people to suggest him returning?
6 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:18:23
I agree that Joe Royle probably isnt a long term solution but in times of need something has to change and soon and if that is a managerial change to retain our place in the league then so be it.
7 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:20:11
The team under Moyes has often suffered similar
poor patches but he has always stuck it out and been given the chance to turn things round. Then again Moyes has never come under the same pressure or faced the level of criticism that Royle had to endure. The Echo these days are basically loathe to print anything negative about the club, the chairman or the manager.
8 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:33:47
9 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:36:32
10 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:09:59
I'm not too sure about the two humiliations away to Coventry City, although I do recall a 2-1 defeat at Highfield Road under Royle. We did also seem to have Wimbledon as a bit of a bogey team at that time, however, as a trade-off the man never lead us to defeat against RS.
It also seems odd to highlight the match versus QPR, & in particular the selction of Barlow & Angell. Neither of these players were signed by Royle & he transferred both from the club in 1995. As I recall that first half was the only first team appearance Angell made under Royle, even so it seems harsh to critcise your striker because you concede a goal through poor defending! When Amokachi came on at half-time we did equalise - through Barlow! However, we then went behind again - was Amokachi now responsible for our poor defending? The game then turned our way via an own-goal & a winner at the death from Hinchcliffe.
I also fail to see how making a substitution at half-time that, "changed the game" is an indication that Royle was "a little behind the times tactics-wise". I suppose he should have waited until about half way through the second half, eh?
It may not have been your intention, but this piece reads as a pitiful attempt to downplay the positive aspects of Royles short spell at the club (let's not forget he only actually had one full season at Everton), & in so doing portray our current managers tenure (eight full seasons so far) in a better light in comparison. A poor show!
11 Posted 26/09/2010 at 03:55:59
He had far inferior players than Moyes has at his disposal now and was not given the opportunity to build because he wanted to buy Tore Andre Flo for 1 million and the board refused so he resigned. You remember him the one Chelsea paid 5 million for a couple of years later and turned out to be a great goalscorer.
Joe also gave me my greatest memory since the "Bayern Munich" night and that was the 4-1 thrashing of Spurs in the semi final when all of the media darlings had already written the script for a ManU v Spurs final.
No, Joe was and always will be a Blues legend and great manager but his time HAS passed and we need a modern manager with tactical nous and modern methods.... Anybody know one that would work with Scrooge and his buddies.
12 Posted 26/09/2010 at 07:06:25
As for David Moyes having a long term plan...
He has been manager for eight years. How long term is his plan? How many more years do we have to wait before he gets Everton to win a trophy?
13 Posted 26/09/2010 at 09:06:41
14 Posted 26/09/2010 at 09:10:55
15 Posted 26/09/2010 at 09:38:45
16 Posted 26/09/2010 at 08:54:48
I agree, I've called for Joe and I'm desperate (on so many levels is that true)
There was a consensus pre season that we now have a reasonable squad not only to push on, but to play better. Instead, we end up bottom after 6 games.
Moyes is trying to play through teams but it is'nt convincing, we don't know if we're Arthur or Martha at the minute.
We need to change this introspective, woe is me bollox that permeates this club and I'm afraid Moyes does'nt or can't change so he's down the road as far as I'm concerned.
Joe knows the score, is as sharp as they come and is a big enough character to influence things short term, which is realistically what he'd be doing.
17 Posted 26/09/2010 at 09:39:46
Big game, big performance, 2 fingers up to the media experts.
Marvellous
18 Posted 26/09/2010 at 09:53:24
And judging by the pith that West Ham and Villa got I would say stick with Moyes work it out as the talent isn't out there.
A new manager with no money and no transfer window to work with itsn't going to improve the situation. Stick with it. We have played a lot worse than yesterday and won. The Yak despite his misses looks like he is coming back. COYB
19 Posted 26/09/2010 at 10:40:57
20 Posted 26/09/2010 at 10:46:29
21 Posted 26/09/2010 at 11:10:32
22 Posted 26/09/2010 at 11:19:21
Why on earth would anybody want to hire a guy who, proportionally, wins fewer & loses more than our current manager? A guy who's seen his sides relegated at least four times (three since he left us)? A guy who presided over four seasons of mediocrity at Ipswich - in a league that is genuinely competitive? A guy who's recent emergency intervention at Oldham yielded one win in nine attempts?
Joe was the right man at the right time for our club, but that time has well and truly gone.
23 Posted 26/09/2010 at 11:14:16
24 Posted 26/09/2010 at 11:49:34
25 Posted 26/09/2010 at 13:26:15
Brett Angell never got a start under Big Joe, surely he was bought by Kendall and released by Walker before Royle arrived? Barlow never kept Amokachi out of the team, Duncan, Rideout and Stuart did.
Get your fact right before dissing one of our own legends.
26 Posted 26/09/2010 at 13:31:07
The Horne, Ebbrell, Parkinson (Vinny Jones said he was his hardest ever player he had ever played against) midfield, with Limpar (later it was Gary Speed) and Kanchelskis on the wings with Big Dunc upfront with Barmby.
Moyes has done a great job. Big Joe did a much better job, he took over a club bottom of the table in mid November, got 5 consecutive clean sheets in his first 5 games and kept us up when 4 teams went down that year. And he won an FA Cup. Moyes took to 17th in his 2nd full season, Royle was forced out when we were 11th. Speaks volumes.
I'd have Big Joe back at Goodison in any capacity. The players would love him.
27 Posted 26/09/2010 at 16:01:54
28 Posted 26/09/2010 at 16:05:48
29 Posted 26/09/2010 at 17:51:39
Under Moyes we are negative playing one striker against smaller teams even when Cahill is injured. We have three tough games coming up that could see us start to be adrift at bottom of league. Go now, Moyes ? you have lost the plot with your poor tactics and substitutions. Come back, Joe, till the end of the season and save us once again...
In Joe we trust, under Moyes we will rust!
30 Posted 26/09/2010 at 18:11:00
T- Shirts with "in Joe we trust, in Moyes we rust" should sell out if he comes in.......a nice chuckle.
31 Posted 26/09/2010 at 18:17:35
As much as I like Joe, I hope we dont ever have him back as manager.
32 Posted 26/09/2010 at 18:23:07
33 Posted 26/09/2010 at 20:31:25
34 Posted 26/09/2010 at 20:33:45
35 Posted 26/09/2010 at 21:52:21
The Coventry thrashing and the following 2-0 Cadamarteri derby was during Kendall's third spell (97/98) and Angell was long gone by then. Check the Premier League History page for further details....
36 Posted 27/09/2010 at 01:59:07
Joe did start him against QPR the following season only because of a horrendous injury list and he played awful. In fact, when he got booked for a late challenge, we were baying for him to be sent off! Not surprisingly, he never got near the first team again and was subsequently sold to Sunderland in the March of '95.
By the way, Dominic and Aiden, you thought Johnson did a good job? Kenwright is the equivalent to Moores in comparison, the man was a lying, conniving piece of filth who undermined two legends and nearly took us down three times!
As for insulting Royle, have either of you any idea how bad it was at City? City were close to liquidation, Royle managed more points in the final third of the season than Clark had managed in the previous two. The fact he took them up two divisions in succession with only £5 million to spend and then was only given a further £8 million to try and keep them there whilst getting rid of 15 players from a playing pool of over 50 was remarkable.
As for Ipswich, the fact he took them to three play-offs against a back drop of administration and having to sell any player worth a fee during his time there speaks volumes of the man. He is a great manager, end of.
Remember the only player he bought during his first season in charge was Barrett and Ferguson who was already there was signed permanently. He used what players where already at the club including the wonderful Spurs game when all the players were either Walker's, Kendall's or Harvey's. So much for not being able to use what he has got...
As for the so-called 'Dogs of War', Royle had already well dispensed with that midfield by the start of his final season in charge. Tony Grant was established alongside Joe Parkinson before both were injured and Gary Speed and Andrei Kanchelskis were wide left and right ? hardly Dogs of War!!!!!
The only reason Barry Horne was asked back was because of the most horrendous injury list the club had known, including Andy Hicnhcliffe, Dave Watson, Craig Short, Duncan Ferguson, John Ebbrell and the above two. Add Anders Limpar and Kanchelskis buggering off and Peter Johnson not supporting his manager, nothing new there then ? that is why Royle had to ask Horne if he would be willing to return.
37 Posted 27/09/2010 at 07:37:47
Ebbrell (5) 1-0; Cottee (43) 2-0; Moncur (56) 2-1; Bodin (61) 2-2; Ablett (72) 3-2; Cottee (83) 4-2; Cottee pen (89) 5-2; Beagrie (90) 6-2.
38 Posted 27/09/2010 at 09:16:41
39 Posted 27/09/2010 at 12:18:42
All the arguments are pointless anyway, Moyes will not be sacked by Kenwright because he has never given him any financial backing. With the exception of the Yak, Moyes has only ever spent what he has raised from transfers. Kenwright simply wouldn't have the audacity considering what Moyes has had to work with and the fact Kenwright has always been willing to make a point of it.
40 Posted 27/09/2010 at 14:07:38
As for Royle, I accept that it's a matter of opinion rather than a statement of fact, but I still see nothing in his managerial career since leaving us to suggest that he was anything more than adequate at his job.
Regularly finishing amongst the also-rans in the Premiership is one reason that people feel that Moyes should be replaced. Regularly finishing amongst the also-rans a division lower makes Royle "a great manager"? Hardly.
There's no denying that Man City were going through a rough patch that was not of Royle's making. Managing under such tight financial constraints can't have been easy (just ask the man who had to sell Wayne Rooney) but City were always a big fish in a little pond in the lower leagues, with home crowds over four times the average for their division.
The less said about Joe's recent comeback at Oldham the better.
Regardless of those opinions, Joe no longer has what it takes to be a manager - which is attested to by the fact that he has only managed nine games in the last four & a half years. He effectively acknowledged as much when he chose not to take the Oldham post permanently when offered.
I'm grateful to Joe for his time at the club but nowadays I wouldn't want him back as a manager any more than I would want him back as a sixty-something player.
41 Posted 27/09/2010 at 15:37:51
In any case, it is not too difficult to bring about the resignation of a manager. Both Peter Johnson and Billy Kenwright know all the tricks of the public relations business. If you want your manager out, you must ridicule him in public and interfere with his decisions. This is precisely what Peter Johnson did. Realising that sacking a manager was an expensive business - i.e. Mike Walker - he dealt with both Royle and Kendall in a far more cunning way.
Kenwright could resort to similar means in order to bring about the resignation of Moyes. But of course, we have on our hands a symbiotic relationship between Ken and Mo. They stand or fall together.
42 Posted 27/09/2010 at 23:31:49
Aiden, I was not suggesting you had mentioned Moores, I was merely pointing out that Johnson was filth and that you could compare Moores with Kenwright in comparison. Again I think you are being unfair on Royle during his time at Ipswich. Their financial situation was terrible, Leedsesque you could say. Relying on youth throughout his time at the club yet consistently he had them challenging for promotion.
As for City, reading his book and our own experience of regular defeats at the hands of lower league teams in the cups, every side that played City that season they were in the old third division treated it like their cup finals. Something like 22 out of the other 23 teams had their highest gates of the season. All sold out their allocations at Maine Rd. All the sides were desperate to beat them, as Royle said they had to literally fight their way out of that league.
As for the 1st Division there was plenty of top sides in the league that season, all who had decent crowds: Blackburn, Wolves, West Brom, Birmingham to name a few. This argument is irrelevant anyway, as Dominic (#40) points out: Kenwright would never sack Moyes, they succeed or fail together.
43 Posted 27/09/2010 at 23:50:53
Oh sorry but it's the strikers fault for not scoring goals, so says tactical genius and ginger tosser! Well, way to give them confidence, mate! Slate them in public! YOU bought them, you daft prat, and you've destroyed them!
Every striker he's signed he's wrecked! Look at the evidence!
Beattie: 20+ at Soton ? shite at Everton;
Yak: 2nd only behind Henry, great first season... then shite;
Johnson: 20+ great 1st season then shite;
Saha ? a 1-in-2 striker when fit... now shite
Beckford ? 20+ at lower level, so about 12-15 in th Prem? You've guessed it ? now shite!
NO, they're not ? it's Moyes and his coaching methods that are shite! And his unswerving belief that 4-5-1 is a good tactic... no, it's not ? it's shite!
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1 Posted 26/09/2010 at 01:00:09