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What other business could Mr Moyes manage?

By Ray Said :  27/09/2010 :  Comments (55) :

I need to state up front that I do not like the Moyes style of management. I have never liked it and have written a few articles on ToffeeWeb over the years basically stating that we have dispensed with better managers than Moyes for achieving more than Moyes ever will achieve.

In my career, I have trained managers, assessed management qualifications, been a manager and completed quite a few management qualifications. No, I did not do this in football and there are those that will say "Football is a unique business and you can't compare it to anything else." However, surely the basics or management have some similarities in whatever fields you work? I suggest that Ferguson, Wenger, or Ancelloti would be successful in other areas of management and would pass any assessment.

I then started to think that it might be interesting to see how would David Moyes rate as a general manager doing general management tasks for a Level 3 management qualification in a business other than football?

The assessment framework would look at some of the following issues. "Does he have a strategic goal for the business?" If he does, I have not heard it ? aside from get 40 pts and take it from there ? most fans would assume the goal is winning a trophy.

"Does he maintain activities to meet the business requirements?" Well, if the business requirement is to win something then the assessment would be failed as he sets out not to lose rather than to win.

"Does he support the efficient use of resources?" This is doubtful as he seems to leave some of his major assets on the bench or plays them in a way or position that does not meet the 'efficient use' assessment.

"Does he select personnel well suited to the activities required?" Fellaini as attacking midfielder? Osman as right winger?? Distin as defender???

"Does he identify and respond to poor performance when required?" Osman? Distin?? Arteta??? ? based on this season's form...

"Does he carry out quality and efficiency audits?" This would correspond to a monthly review of the players' form and developing a recruitment policy to meet any identified gaps in quality or efficiency. This is a big area of the assessment as it looks forward to what you are going to do to put things right. I think he fails here as it's easy to spot the right side of the team has been weak for 3 years and he still fails to address the issue.

I don't think Moyes can manage and would fail an assessment to run a small business ? never mind EFC ? but I would be interested in your views on how he meets the assessment framework...

Reader Comments

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Jonathan Tasker
1   Posted 28/09/2010 at 08:32:41

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Nightclub bouncer?
Robbie Shields
2   Posted 28/09/2010 at 08:52:47

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Weather forcaster.
Ray Robinson
3   Posted 28/09/2010 at 08:50:32

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Does Harry Redknapp fulfil your criteria? Well yes probably, but there is also the distinct possibility that he may well bankcrupt your business at the same time by overspending for insufficient return.

An exercise that concentrates on certain skills (albeit some of which Moyes is deficient in) in order to make a point which has been done to death on ToffeeWeb recently.
Michael Evans
4   Posted 28/09/2010 at 09:05:47

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Starring in the new production of " LES MISERABLES" ?

Thousands of Everton fans in supporting roles weeping and wailing ?

Jason Lam
5   Posted 28/09/2010 at 08:52:24

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He would coach an American Football team in 4-5-1 formation with Osman as linebacker, on the right.
Alan Clarke
6   Posted 28/09/2010 at 09:20:09

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What if you applied it to Kenwright?

"Does he have a strategic goal for the business?" NO

"Does he maintain activities to meet the business requirements?" NO, apart from looking 24/7.

"Does he support the efficient use of resources?" NO

"Does he select personnel well suited to the activities required?" NO - Walter Smith, Moyes and Wyness are good examples.

"Does he identify and respond to poor performance when required?" Absolutely not.

So in conclusion, Moyes and Kenwright are totally inept at running a football club yet we should be grateful for them.
Steve O'Malley
7   Posted 28/09/2010 at 09:58:47

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Guys its great to see that no matter what is delivered up to us, we can still retain our sense of humour.Given what we have been put through for what seems an eternity , that is nothing short of a miracle.
As for the article Ray I understand where you are coming from
Eugene Ruane
8   Posted 28/09/2010 at 10:26:45

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Well with his useless managerial 'skills' now revealed, if he does go, surely he'll be a cert for a top job in a British Bank.
Tony McNulty
9   Posted 28/09/2010 at 11:27:22

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In the context of executive capability, a while back I saw the Yellow Pages' advert with its reference to ?24/7? and I thought of our Chairman?s search for funds. I was humming along one day and one of my kids informed me that it was actually the tune to ?Magical Trevor?. I looked at the clip on You Tube.

Ever since that time, whenever I hear a reference to the 24/7 search, in my mind?s eye I see Bill as Magical Trevor, and the disappearing and reappearing cow as our putative investors and their money. Take a look and smile ? it probably says more about me than anything else.

Howard Don
10   Posted 28/09/2010 at 10:44:14

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Such a trite analysis, it's hard to know where to start pulling it apart first. A lot of us could all trade academic pieces of paper that say we're managers, doesn't mean we've got a clue in the crazy world of football management. I'm also with everyone here in being as frustrated as hell with the current situation and of course we'd all do things differently. However over the long term, your analsis just doesn't stack up Roy:-

"Does he have a strategic goal for the business?" - Well yes having inherited a bunch of overpaid aging perennial relegation fighters, Moyes' strategic goal was to replace them, despite serious budget constraints, with a younger squad capable of at least competing, most seasons, at the higher levels of the PL - achieved in spades I'd say.

"Does he maintain activities to meet the business requirements?" Well, if the business requirement is to win something then the assessment would be failed" - Nonesense, If success is only judged by being top dog, then every other supermarket chain in the country apart from Tesco has failed. In reality many of them are well run organisations, more than satisfying their stakekholders, which isn't to say they wouldn't want more - of course they would, but that's not the same as saying they've failed.

"Does he support the efficient use of resources?" - Laughable, Moyes' Everton has just been placed top of the Financial Efficiency League in the PL based on points gathered relative to transfer and wages expenditure.

Does he select personnel well suited to the activities required? - Doesn't always get it right, (I certainly don't aways agree with his decisions) but given constraints over the years operating on a tiny squad for most of the time, the case in favour of Moyes is ovewhelmeing.

"Does he identify and respond to poor performance when required." - Moyes has never failed to turn a "bad patch" around. The current situation is dire, but how many would bet on Moyes allowing it to continue.

Maybe we're reaching a watershed, maybe, in the words of footballs worst cliche, Moyes has taken Everton as far as he can. However it's just laughable to look at where we were when he started and then say he's a poor manager. He may not be your type of manager, you may not like him, but for shear effectiveness operating under extreme budget constaints, you can't dismiss Moyes record.
Charles King
11   Posted 28/09/2010 at 11:30:41

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Funeral Directors
Ray Robinson
12   Posted 28/09/2010 at 11:43:14

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Well done Howard - you articulated clearly what I couldn't be bothered to write.
Denis Aghaizu
13   Posted 28/09/2010 at 11:51:26

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@ Howard 10, good reply, didnt really get the point/use of this article.

At the end of the day, we've had a bad start to the season but its only a few games in. A couple of good results will see us climb up the table. Being bottom in September does not mean much.

Issue is that the next 2-3 games are tough so need a big effort to get something.

Would be nice to see most of the team playing in their proper positions as well.

Nick Entwistle
14   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:23:48

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Right now you can put up any anti-Moyes posting on here based on anything you like and you'll have everyone coming along and agreeing with it in some shameful group think dynamic. Bunch of barking seal pups.
Charles King
15   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:38:29

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Moyes is'nt doing well.

Arf, Arf.

Throw me a kipper.

go on i'll clap my flippers

balance the ball on me 'ead (we can play 2 up front then)
Peter Laing
16   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:39:27

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How about Granville in Open all hours with Kenwright as Arkwright
David Thomas
17   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:46:20

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" didnt really get the point/use of this article."

Join the club.

Nick 14,

You are 100% right.
Mike Allison
18   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:49:53

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"Football is a unique business and you can't compare it to anything else."

You raise this point but completely fail to deal with it. Moyes doesn't manage a business, he manages a football team.

There are plenty of people unhappy with the way he does this, but this article is pointless and adds nothing.
Steve Collins
19   Posted 28/09/2010 at 13:02:40

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Not another pointless article about how we are all supposed to hate Moyes and Kenwright and how our club is ruined and we will never recover under their guidance. How many similar articles do we need?

I bet all fans alike are upset on how things are panning out but the more rational seem to figure that a) its not the end of the world b) let's wait and see only 6 games have been played.

I truely believe Moyes will be gone by Janauary if he doesn't turn it around, friends or not with Kenwright.
Gareth Humphreys
20   Posted 28/09/2010 at 13:03:34

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Ray, I think you should have stopped typing after your first full stop.

We would have got the idea without the pointless attempt at a comparison between middle management and managing a football team.

Give me strength.
Tony J Williams
21   Posted 28/09/2010 at 13:25:39

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Amen brother Apologist Howard.

It's open day on here of late, let's see how many posts we can get up telling everyone why Moyes is so bad (using the same words usually).
Dave Lynch
22   Posted 28/09/2010 at 14:37:02

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I'm prepared to give him till crimbo.
If we are bottom 5 then, then i will order him the taxi myself.
Don't think you can argue with that lads, seeing as we are only 6 points off the top 10.
Mike Rourke
23   Posted 28/09/2010 at 15:24:21

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Oh dear, management speak.

Level 3 assessments, strategic aim realisation, blah di blah yaaaawn.

Ray I'm sure you're a top Evertonian and were our paths ever to cross I'm certain I'd enjoy discussing all things EFC with you, however, I'm equally certain that the moment you came out with 'activity maintenance requirements' or 'resource efficiency' then I'm afraid I would vomit in your face.

As I'm sure would Moyes, because no matter which sub-category on the structured management level indicator flow spreadsheet you believe he falls into, you have to face the fact that the guy has negotiated a £3,000,000 per annum contract secure for what, at least another 3 years, with great prospects for future growth projection analysis, or whatever.

There was one part of your article that I thought was absolutely spot

"there are those that will say "Football is a unique business and you can't compare it to anything else."

Those people are right.

Brendan McLaughlin
24   Posted 28/09/2010 at 16:04:14

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I can just see our new motto:

N.S.N.NVQ (Level 3)
Tony J Williams
25   Posted 28/09/2010 at 17:18:44

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"However, I'm equally certain that the moment you came out with 'activity maintenance requirements' or 'resource efficiency' then I'm afraid I would vomit in your face"

My favouurite quote of the day. Coffee on screen moment.
Jon Cox
26   Posted 28/09/2010 at 16:59:46

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Human waste resource cleansing facilitator (bog cleaner) on Apollo 13
Kunal Desai
27   Posted 28/09/2010 at 17:37:14

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The next Golum in Lord of the rings.
Steve Edwards
28   Posted 28/09/2010 at 18:04:44

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I love it when somebody thinks they are writing something very clever and then gets shot to pieces. You must have thought that you couldn't go wrong attacking Moyes just at the moment. The trouble is people hate all that management bullshit speak. Many of us have had to put up with it in the workplace.
Steve Edwards
29   Posted 28/09/2010 at 19:11:20

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Kunal...27. Mancini has already got that job.
Jimmy Hacking
30   Posted 28/09/2010 at 19:32:06

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England manager
Ray Said
31   Posted 28/09/2010 at 20:17:30

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Steve Edwards 29

I didn't think I was writing something very clever and I don't think I was shot to pieces. I was making a point which you can take or leave, accept or dismiss. It's your choice.

The negative comments came from the usual Moyes apologists Ray Robinson, Howard Don and T Williams etc. Howard Don ? at least you made some decent points and put your view forward.

I didn't think 'I couldn't go wrong attacking Moyes just at the moment' as I have posted here going back to the early days of ToffeeWeb and have always been anti Moyes and anti-hoofball so its not a new view for me.
Anyway, thanks for the comments.

Howard Don
32   Posted 28/09/2010 at 20:48:25

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Fair enough Ray, but could we please have an end to derogatory terms like "Moyes apologists" ("Moyes accolytes" is another) for people who put the pro Moyes case. I'm nobody's apologist or acolyte, I just put the case as I see it.
Michael Kenrick
33   Posted 28/09/2010 at 21:03:02

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It's pretty simple, Howard: Moyes has failed us badly this season. Many fans haved turned on him, pointing up his numerous and repeated failings that have directly contributed to this situation. His disciples (let's call them "Moyes acolytes" for short) spring to his defence and spout an endless stream of excuses and apologies for him and the current predicament he has led us into. Hence they shall be called "Moyes Apologists".

Think of it this way: If he wasn't making such an awful mess of things, there would be no need for all these excuses and apologies, and you could instead be bating the "Moyes haters", forcing them to bow down and pay homage to... wait for it... "The Moyesiah"!
Ray Robinson
34   Posted 28/09/2010 at 22:08:42

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Ray, just because I disagreed with you doesn't make me a "Moyes apologist" - I think the man has many faults and I am actually undecided on whether he is the man for us going forward. I just think your arguments were selective and using the cloak of management speak in order to have an unjustified go at Moyes.

Howard eloquently and effectively countered your arguments by providing some balance - which I happened to agree with.
Howard Don
35   Posted 28/09/2010 at 23:07:32

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As ever Michael you take great leaps of false logic and then base your "factual" arguments on them. You are always so selective in what you pick out of other people's points of view and then (in your opinion) demolish them in your overbearing and pompous way.

Like I said I am nobody's acolyte or apologist, I have an opinion and am entitled to it. "forcing the Moyes hater to bow down and pay homage"??? Where do you get this garbage? It's about opinions man, Ray and I agreed to differ and call it quits. Acolytes, apologists and grovellers don't come into it. Well not in the world of rational debate they don't.
Dennis Stevens
36   Posted 28/09/2010 at 23:28:05

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If Moyes has been dividing his time between his role at Everton & outside business interests it would certainly go some way to explaining our current plight. I certainly don't think he should be looking into any other business opportunities at the moment & would prefer him to relinquish all outside interests whilst he concentrates on ensuring Everton's survival in the top flight!
James McGlone
37   Posted 29/09/2010 at 14:30:56

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"Hence they shall be called Moyes apologists"


Just because they can see the bigger picture? You absolute loony.

I'm a proud apologist for David Moyes. Mainly because i'm well aware that Moyes has been brilliant for Everton, especially when you look at our financial restrictions. We would do well to find anyone better ? it's very simple really.
James McGlone
38   Posted 29/09/2010 at 14:49:23

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Comment 37 - wha???
Jay Harris
39   Posted 29/09/2010 at 15:09:57

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Ray there's many a football chairman who has passed your tests with flying colours and look at the mess they created when they thought they could do a better job than the manager when interfering with the running of the team.

Despite the disappointment and overreaction to the start of the season Moyes still enjoys the support of the matchgoing supporters which to me is an important measure of his credentials to manage Everton.
Nelaj Behajiha
40   Posted 29/09/2010 at 16:48:13

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James McGlone. I don't know why people even call them apologists they should be called bloody lunatics. Moyes supporters offer little insight into why he is the messiah, we are currently bottom of the league and we will probably lose at least 2 of the next 3 games, so a very successful start for the messiah.

Not one of his so-called apologists has anything intresting to say other than, spouting abuse at the posters. All these people yawning should drink some fucking coffee and write an article expressing your love for the Moyesiah rather than abusing people who've took the time to write an article. When Moyes fucks off one day you'll probably start support whatever team he manages, which will probably be Tranmere at the rate he's going.

Moyes is to blame for the current mess on the pitch, and no amount of abusing the anti-Moyes Brigade is going to change that. I challenge you to write a pro Moyes article and then we can have a proper debate or arguement.

Tony J Williams
41   Posted 29/09/2010 at 17:19:37

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Actually Nelaj, the issue with me is how the players are getting off so lightly. No matter what tactics are given, the manager of a football team cannot take the blame for one of his players not controlling a pass, not being able to get his shot on target etc.

He is not the Moyesiah at all, far from it but posters constantly droning on about his faults and never once recognising his good points is the issue we "apologists" argue against . I mean some dopes even type that we managed 4th in spite of him. If that is not the sign of a "lunatic" I don't know what is.
Jon Cox
42   Posted 29/09/2010 at 19:25:16

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Dennis (37) is there something you know about Moyes and we dont?

Please tell us; we're all agog (and not N'gog).
Karl Masters
43   Posted 29/09/2010 at 19:51:05

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The way the world is controlled (not run as these people could not run a bath) these days by grey suited 'Management' ticking off boxes, setting silly targets and covering their own unproductive arses, I expect you'd rather have Moyes doing an NVQ in media management than worrying about our performances.

Fuck me, the world has gone mad. Ray, sure you're a lovely fella, but all this management speak drives normal people insane.

And, by the way, I am a successful Manager and have been for nearly 20 years, but the day I let my human instincts get rolled out of the way by the sort of gibberish you quote, I'm outta here! As CJ once said, ''I didn't get where I am today by.....''
Dennis Stevens
44   Posted 29/09/2010 at 20:42:02

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No Jon. I didn't really think too much of this piece by Ray & rather felt it invited a response denigrating Moyes' performance as Everton manager. It set me thinking about the late great Joe Mercer & his grocer's shop & others of bygone days, like Tom Finney 'The Preston Plumber', who also had business interests outside of football. Hence the somewhat facetious reply.
Dominic Bobadilla
45   Posted 29/09/2010 at 20:49:53

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Ray: would you be so kind and provide us with a psychological profile of Moyes? It all boils down to character. If Alex Ferguson has the character of a Josef Stalin then surely Moyes must be Jim Hacker.
Joe Bibb
46   Posted 29/09/2010 at 21:22:45

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Post 31
Worst league away defeat: 7-0
Worst league home defeat: 6-1
Worst European defeat: 5-0
Lowest league team ever to beat us in the FA Cup: Shrewsbury
Worst Carling/League Cup defeat Brentford
Lowest points total in EFC history
Lowest goals total in EFC history
Worst decade of results in the Derby..

Do you honestly think we are just annoyed because it's another bad start to the season or do we so-called Moyes haters not have a case?

Ged Simpson
47   Posted 30/09/2010 at 08:52:05

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Absolutely cheap and pointless article from someone who claims to be some kind of management guru.

Presumable you missed the training module about objective analysis leading to considered conclusions.

I reckon writer is a NEET in disguise.
James McGlone
48   Posted 30/09/2010 at 09:19:56

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Post 47.

Do you really believe that those 8 points you made are enough to get on the man's back? If you want, I can take a few hours tonight and build up a list of the positive things that the man has done, and make your list look completely small-time and stupid.

This is ridiculous. The article itself is an absolute nonsense anyway. I bet Moyes's performance at Everton when you look at the situation he inherited and the little he has spent, compared to the dramatic rise in our performance as a club, and money gained from each seasons performances - he's better that most.
James McGlone
49   Posted 30/09/2010 at 09:27:53

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Nelaj Behajiha - post 41.

You complain of people offering nothing but abuse, yet that's all you seem to offer. You have absolutely nothing to say in anything you've written on this subject.

I don't know how long you've been supporting Everton for, but I feel the need to remind you that he inherited an absolute mess, yet has been able to give us our most stable period since the 80's by spending very very little.

I'm aware of his limitations, that he sometimes uses subs a bit too late, that he can be stubborn with formation - all the rest of it is hearsay and is usually found to be malicious gossip. I'm also aware that nearly every season he's been at Everton, we've performed well in the league and finished higher in the table than most people would have given us credit for. I'm also aware that there are probably 10 teams spending more than us each season. When was the last time we finished 10th or below?

I think when you look at what he's achieved, he's entitled to have a little space when things go wrong. I've no doubt that he and the players will turn it around again, and then when things are going well, you can fuck back off playing football manager or whatever else it is you do when we're winning, because I didn't see you on here with your titty lip when things were going well last season.

Get a hobby mate, and stop taking life so seriously.

Paul Loins
50   Posted 30/09/2010 at 16:48:48

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How about putting him in charge of RBS or Bank of Ireland. He is use to working with no money and keeping hold of what money he has got ! Beware of the ghosts of christmas future Mr Marley Moyes......
Ray Said
51   Posted 30/09/2010 at 18:53:10

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Ged Simpson 49
I don't remember claiming to be a 'management guru' of any type. I am just a long time fan. The article did have a point ? you may not agree with the point but thats your choice, however if you cant get the point then the council offer remedial reading classes, give them a ring. I take it you mean 'presumably'-second para?

The 'NEET' crack was quite funny though.
Joe Bibb
52   Posted 30/09/2010 at 20:36:36

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James McGlone (post 49): yes, spend a few hours send me that list. Don't just talk about it, if you have something to say, say it. Where is your list? And don't forget, he has had no money: £15 million for Fellani is only buttons, the Yak wasn't a £12 million record signing, neither was Beattie a record signing, nor Johnson, and they all failed under Moyes... but it's not his fault, is it?
Gaute Lie
53   Posted 01/10/2010 at 00:10:34

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A ginger man.

If there is such a profession.
Tony J Williams
54   Posted 01/10/2010 at 12:22:20

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Has has the YAk and Fellaini failed under Moyes? Yak's only season fully fit he became the first striker in who knows how long to get 20 goals, know what, it's not worth it
Tony J Williams
55   Posted 01/10/2010 at 12:24:29

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How has! I really picked the wrong day to quit taking heroin (copyright Airplane)

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