Support for Moyes

Tom,

Your a brave man coming on this site offering support to Moyes. I don't think the natives will appreciate that concept.

From the evidence to date this season Tom I feel that the current Everton team have been approaching games and the season in general in category B ) Teams that think they are Arsenal but are not. We play pretty football, have loads of posession and have been known to dominate games, however we lack the cutting edge and final impact in the last third. Until we find somebody who can score goals reverting to category 1 is the only option available.

In my own opinion I think Arsenal are in a class of their own with ManUre behind them in the "pretty" stakes.

The rest play ugly football. Chelsea play ugly boring monotonous football but are success because of it.

Liverpool, even when they were the other Sky 4 team, were absolutely dreadful to watch, especially in Europe.

So all this "I want pretty football" is simply put, all my arse. Without the personnel to play pretty triangles and then put the ball in the net we are stuck with sporadic good games but mainly dull, drab games. Hopefully winning more than not.

There was a depresing and accurate quote a few days ago, in that the other teams are probably thinking, "let them have the ball and pass pretty, they're going to do nothing then we can catch them on the break", heartbreaking but true. All because we don't want to see ugly football anymore

Tom - well said mate - a bit of balance at last in the "lets bash Moyes brigade". He's not perfect we all know but gives his best.
David #1 - seems to me the natives don't want to hear anything else and want to keep negative.

Tony#3 - "Chelsea play ugly boring monotonous football"

That's why they've scored 21 league goals already, as against our 4!

So 21 goals equates to pretty football then? I would more suggest effective...

Sorry Peter, but this idea that there are supporters who 'want to keep negative' is gibberish.

We are fashioned by experience, simple as that.

That you choose to dismiss this experience is your choice, but you really are pissing in the wind trying to sell Moyes as someone who 'gives his best'

(nb" I don't think I've seen ONE post suggesting he isn't)

The point (you seem to be missing) though is his best isn't good enough.

That simple.

I think it's fair to state as fact that 100% of Evertonians want nothing more than to see Everton play good football and win trophies.

However some (imo the realists) look at Moyes, Kenwright, Sky, The PL, the big 3/4/5 etc etc and make a call based on what HAS happened, not what they WISH would happen.

And remember, every time you use an expression like "the let's bash Moyes Brigade", someone (like me!) is looking at your post thinking another deluded, fantasist, apologist prepared to accept second best.

What's good go the goose etc.

Eugene

From your perspective; who should have replaced Moyes today ? How would you reassess realistic expectations with that person ?

I'm just curious as I usually like your opinion.

I think we'd be screwed, myself. My hopes of any success under Kenwright would then admittedly become an unhealthy fantasy.

I'd like to say to the original poster, I think you're a little bit deluded on your assumptions.

Each season we manage to fuck up badly at the start of the season. Each season we do not try to improve, you should have said we have been stagnating since we smacked into 4th, but hey don't let your delusions of grandeur stop you believing something that has been disproved over the years under Moyes. :)

Eugene,
I believe I am a realist too. Moyes has consistently made us "best of the rest" on a budget that has rarely if ever merited it. That's a judgement based on a far longer sample period than just the last 6 games. (let's face it, there was little if any of the current furure close season). Do you honestly believe that any of the names mentioned would have achieved the same, nevermind better over the same period, because they all haven't elsewhere. I too want us to be doing better than just "best of the rest", and doing it with style, but I believe it is probably unrealistic expectation with our pitiful budget and the constraints imposed. It will always be one step forward with the occasional 2 backward, when the gamble doesn't come off....... Despite this, Moyes has repeatedly hit that glass ceiling. Has he the ability to take us beyond that point? No-one knows, because he's never really had the resources to work with.

Neither the manager nor the players are good enough to get the Club into the CL.

With all the usual caveats ... IMHO etc.

Ive been saying this ever since we lost to Blackburn, but I'll say it one more time; I suspect one or two other fans feel the same way.

I do admire and respect David Moyes, I just dont feel that the club are progressing under him. we make the same mistakes season after season. I am confident our form will improve and we will finish 7th or 8th, and all of the journalists will be singing Moyes' praises again, and then next season we can look forward to the whole rollercoaster ride all over again.

in a nutshell I am frustrated that Moyes has the potential to take us to the next level, but never quite seems to achieve it.

The problem for Moyes is that in seasons past he's had the luxury of a good and stable defence. Remeber the seasons were we won so many games 1-0. All those 1-0 games gave us three points and therefore we never ever looked like relegation candidates.

Problem now is that not only, in general, keep clean sheets but we cant score goals either.

This is a formula for disaster. The mere fact that Moyes has in the past, had is share of luck with our defense keeping those clean sheets, and the odd goal going in, that was at the time really good because we all thought that this was a stop gap for something much better.

We are now witnessing what happens when the manager runs out of luck. Dont forget I'm aware of the budget constraints, but as a guitar player and you break a string in mid song then believe me you have to have a strat (and I had two lol) stratergy, to use the five remaining strings to the best advantage.

For me Moyes seems to have let this lack of finance eat away in his mind. Once we saw a bloke who had no money behind him but come what may, worked out the best stratergy for the chosen 11 on any particulat match.

I see that year on year this has gnored away at his resolve and now he's got his money in his back pocket of BK, he doesn't seem to give a shit as much as he did three or four years ago. Thats it, he's got his dosh, he knows he can't go any further, and dont forget he's older now and more savvy in terms of his own bank balance.

However, having said all that it's the club we are wedded to not the manager, so come on lads, BATTER BIRMINGHAM at the w/end you know it makes sense !

COYB

Remeber????? Earth calling Jon...

Tom Hughes,

Excellent post. Agree totally.

There simply is no other club that has achieved the same consistancy over 6 years as we have, that does not mean we should settle for 6th, 7th or 8th. The facts however mean that every year other managers use Moyes blue print to improve thier position. No luck involved, just look at Brum. We are better than them and have proved it for 6 years but they are flattering us by copying our style.
Moyes tries to move to the next level. has a few teathing problems and just read the rubbish some people start to believe.
Keep the faith, we will climb the league and who knows what will happen. Strange things happen in life.

I can see it now, 15 years on and we still have Moyes as manager and finishing in 6th place playing negative 4-5-1 football winning enough games 1-0 and a testimonial for Cahill aged 43. If we don't try then we will never know. I want a manager who wants to score goals play expansive football and not play average players long past expiry date because they are loyal and do what he tells them with question. This squad is better than its current state and mistakes have been made about strikers. I am fed up with negative tactics late substitutuins and might have beens....Moyes has had 8 years and is stale...In Moyes we rust !!!!!!!!

Tom,
yet again an excellent and sensible post.

People have short memories.

The directors of this club have done absolutely nothing to move our club forward.

In the main the only funds Moyes has been given have come from player sales (Rooney, McFadden, Johnson, Lescott) and squad reduction.

Yet nevertheless we have achieved 4, 5th(twice) 6th and 7th and 8th over the last 7 years which is not only consistent but better than most of the teams outside of what is considered the "TOP" 4.

I am happy with this..... "Hell No".

Do I want and expect better...."Of course".

But unlike a lot of supporters I cannot see beyond Moyes while we have "Black Bill" in charge.

Tom Hughes (10) & Jay Harris (18) both spot on. Any criticism should be directly solely upstairs to the Boardroom. The Directors, owners, strange shadow Directors (P Green etc) should be ashamed of themselves and should be hounded out of Goodison, not Moyes. They have succeeded in turning our once proud club into a pale imitation of what it used to be, how can people blame the manager when he was given such a substantial pot to piss in in the summer that it was only big enough to secure existing players to new contracts?! Our Board is as big a joke as the two cowboys across the park at the RS, IMHO.

Jay here we go again everything being Billy boys fault! Get a grip lad Kenwright doesn't pick the team,set the tactics if you can call them that and set the training regime it's Moyes and it's not personal against him,it's just that most people are fed up with his inability to see beyond this 4-5-1 bollocks,he needs to show some flexibility,because I tell you what the players look pissed off with it,the fans are definately pissed off with it and it won't be too long before the board and by that I mean Robert Earl the man who put the money in to help Kenwright is totally pissed of with it!
Who would replace him? Well short term O'Neill who at least has flexibilty in his tactics.
Long term with investment maybe Martin Jol or someone of that ilk.

Tom, to reply the way I'd intended to would be to repeat Paul Loins's post verbatim.

Paul says "If we don't try, we'll never know".

A simple sounding solution, but one I happen to agree with.

I accept completely Moyes has been horribly hampered financially and also accept that the combination of Kenwright/Sky/the PL/the big 4 etc, means we'll never see Everton win another title.

Fine (well NOT fine obviously but..realistic).

I will always be grateful to Moyes for waking us from our Walter Smith-induced stupor and accept that at the time he arrived, we had found exactly the right man for 'the job'.

However (again as Paul suggests) when does this end?

When does something (anything) become stale?

I have seen enough of Moyes to know that he has a strong Presbyterian side (philosophically speaking).

Safety first, second and third.

The result is that we're being asked to accept the prospect of no trophies AND dull, uninspiring, negative, predictable football.

Maybe it simply boils down to 'types' (supporters and managers)

I have stated before that I believe 'shifty chancer' is in Harry Redknapp's DNA, the same way as 'cautious' is in Moyes.

In most walks of 'real life' this would give Moyes the edge.

In football however, I believe the shifty chancer probably has a better chance of 'success' than the cautious.

And even if neither of them win, shifty chancer football will inevitably be more exciting to watch.

And right now, that's all I'm really after.

Personally, I'm at the stage now where I'd accept almost anyone who indicated that the game should be played on the deck, at pace.

As with Moyes, I wouldn't be expecting to win anything, but it'd be nice to see the occasional bit of action that helped keep your hands warm on a winter's afternoon.

Surely that is not an unrealistic wish.

Paul Loins, Martin Handley, Eugene ? once again you nail the apologists ty ? I absolutely concur with the three of you.


Thing is, there are quite a few people unwilling to see the trouble we are in, unprepared to accept that Moyes is ultimately responsible and such.

Why blame Billy Liar and his cronies when it's down to Moyes and his equally useless side kick, Steve Round?

Realistically, this team has played beyond its ability for so long now, that it's coming back to bite Moyes. I mean, c'mon... for years now (8½) they have continuously been played out of position, we still have the same old regime in place that would work in the Championship but not in the Premier League ? certainly not to get 5th or 6th.

It amuses me that some people think this is actually success to constantly finish 5th or 6th every single season, getting twated out of Europe by half decent sides and failing every season in cups we used to be kings of.

People are afraid of change and won't do a thing. Some seem to think if we pretend the problem doesn't exist it will go away... and yet there are others who seem to think, no matter what we do, nothing will change.

If you do nothing, then indeed nothing will change; but for us 'realists' its time for a change, we need replacements for Round and Moyes. They can shove their negative football. We'll never win a single thing under this man, and don't ever be deluded or stupid enough to think, if Moyes was given more money, things would be different. This season is what we really are, according to Moyes.

Eugene,
I can't believe you haven't been excited at all at any games over the past 8½ years, or even the past year alone. We managed to beat all the top dogs just last season, and quite often with some style too, to the point that many were tipping us top 4 contenders. I can't help think that the "style" gripe is really "result"-led, to be honest.

Despite everything, I've even seen us play some decent stuff this season, outplaying some of our opponents, but at the end of the day the mood is always dominated by the result... and we have been toothless. Just a fraction of those numerous opportunities taken would've completely changed that outlook, and no-one would be even mentioning style, or 4-5-1 on here.

I think the reason for most of our deficiencies lies as much, if not more, with being one of the lowest nett spenders in the league year after year, than it does on Moyes's presbyterian footballing philosophy...... Redknapp might be having his "chancer's" moment now, but it's taken him long enough to get ahead of Moyes and at what cost? And he's not going to win any leagues either.

Tom, yes of course there have been moments but...just not enough of them for me.

Basically I don't think I'm getting my money's worth from Everton Football Club.

Plus some of our best/most exciting performances seem to have come in games where Moyes has had little choice in selection due to injury/suspension.

Anyway as I suggest, this appears to be an issue that each supporter sees differently, due to the fact that each supporter has different expectations.

Moyes is not fulfilling mine and I can't see that changing.

Consequently, I'd prefer to see someone or something fresh.

He's a great manager - done miracles with nothing. We've been unlucky this season. A win v The Brums and another against The Shite - and we'll be off and running. In Moyes I Trust.

Championship is where we are heading at this rate under Moyes, you fool!

IMIT.

Moyes has worked wonders at our club and has gradually changed the team into one which plays good football.

There are lots of posters on here who reject Moyes because he plays '4-5-1'. We don't - we play 4-4-1-1. Very often Cahill plays the second striker role, which is adaptable. How many teams play 4-4-2 from the outset? Very few...even fewer do it successfully. Where Moyes has let himself down is not adding pace to our team especially at right mid. However I trust Moyes to get it right.

Very few high profile managers would want the Everton job as they'd have no money to change the squad.

Jesus fucking Christ some of this pisses me off.

We had a moment, a brief, brief moment under Big Joe.

Other than that between about '92 and the spring of 2002 we were not the Everton that I grew up supporting. Season after season of shit, shit, shit. We were the pathetic drunks of the league, barely holding on to our status card and seemingly propelled to survival by the weight of past glories alone.
One man pulled us out of the ten-year bender that ended with us pissing all over ourselves in a gutter on Teeside.

He drives me crazy at times. The rigidity of formation, the stale tactics and the predictable substitutions are but three elements of what make me yell at the tv on match day. But he's so Everton now that I wouldn't trade him for anyone.

I reserve the right to take all this back after tomorrow's match.

COYB!!!!

Tom W. so you think we will finish 25pts above the relegation places. well last season that was 30 which gives us 55 of which we have THREE!!.

That leaves 32 games to get 52 pts...1.6 pts per game.

This months games will give a better idea on how we will go to do that.

So I will put your Polyanna optimism, long my you have it, on hold, until Halloween. As Yoda might say...unconvinced I remain.

I do increasingly feel that Moyes has reached his limit.

It's a bit like Pareto's law, he's got us 80% of the way to where we want to be and can't quite crack that magic final 20. Whether thats down to funds or his ability will be an unanswerable debate until he gets some cash, which he's not going to get so the question is.

Is there a manager that can take us further than 80% with the assets Moyes has at his disposal?

I think the answer undoubtedly is yes, but trying to find him will be an unqualified gamble with some pretty unpalatable consequences should we get it wrong.

I'm all for taking risks but haven't a clue who that man is so I'm a bit unwilling to do so - especially at the expense of EFC.

Sean - I've been scratching around trying to find a term opposite to "Apologist" and appearently it's "Polemic".

I'd love to see a) the "Polemics" suggestions for a replacement and b) their reaction when their man took us down. No doubt they'd be running around, wailing, waggling hands in the air screaming "Fucking BK!!!! Fucking (whoever the new man was)!!! Fucking bollocks!!!!!" and reflecting on how they'd always thought Moyes had done a great job and had never been one of the ones wanting to get rid of him in the first place.

Us football fans after all are famed for having the memories of goldfish and a vast collection of rose-tinted glasses.

Tom, excellent article, spot on.

Calling for Moyes to go is one thing, but naming a potential replacement who would do better is another.

I love the mood swings of Toffeeweb throughout the week. Anger, depression and recrimination in the days following a game, leading to mounting optimism before the next fixture. The dizzying highs and lows of supporting Everton.

Let's hope that we are all getting carried away after winning easily at Birmingham and spanking Liverpool 10-0.

Eugene,
There's the rub........ "money's worth".

If I'm honest, I can probably count on one hand the number of seasons I've really had my money's worth (out of nearly 40).

Converesly, the club (and many other commentators) would have to say they have had more than their money's worth out of Moyes. Is that good enough for my aspirations? Not at all..... Nowhere near in fact. I would dearly love to have domestic and European championships galore.... but it's almost certainly never going to happen at our current levels of expenditure.

However, Moyes has managed that expenditure, upped the ante, and has added value almost continuously. There will come a point (and you're arguing it is now), when the question of if or not it is the end of the line for him, and if he's taken us as far as he can, either because he's reached his personal limits, or the club (in it's current guise) has hit it's own ceiling.

Personally, I still think it's more a case of the latter, regardless of the number of errors of judgement people have highlighted. Moyes' relative success alone has been hiding the real decay for years...... and at the first sign of the cracks, we all want to sack the guy desperately applying the filler. Of course you may be right, and he and/or his methods may have actually reached his limit... I'm not convinced that's the case, and would be wary of parting with him.

Mosque, Ground zero type post on Toffee Web. Moyes will not stay much longer I believe he will probably leave this season or the next. Moyes is interested in himself, not Everton. The poster doesn't really make any strong arguement other than that he fought off relegation, hand claps all around.

I don't like Wenger as, like Moyes, he's stubborn and now his tactics have been found out his team have struggled. His bleating about finances is completely ridiculous considering like intelligent managers do they sell players to fund more essential purchases. He kept Arteta and a player that is completely useless in central midfield.

Moyes has got rid of 2 strikers who, while they didn't set the world alight, at least AJ and Vaughany gave 100% when they played. He has failed to get rid of players that are completely useless like Osman and Distin who don't even try. Moyes will never satisfy and large element of our support but we'll have to see what happens come 3 o'clock.

Moyes should be praised for the good things he has done and criticized for the bad things he did. He did keep our heads above water during the dark days when relegation was a very real prospect and on a shoestring budget he got us into Europe. In terms of efficiency (money-wise) and organizational skills he is definitely among the best.

The fact that he achieved all these with the same tactics in the past does not mean that these tactics will remain successful forever. As stated in The Art of War, a general cannot keep sticking to the same strategies and tactics all the time. Application must fit the situation. Our team is no longer made up of a bunch of journeymen footballers who compensate in pluck and sweat what they lack in skill. We now have players who are capable of playing football on the deck but why are we still hoofing it up? Why are we still playing without real pace on the flanks (especially the right one)? Why are we still playing one striker up front against the likes of Wolves and Newcastle? Why are we rushing until the end of the transfer season to get players? (I blame this on Kenwright rather than Moyes). Why do we have so many centre midfielders? Why didn't Moyes spend money on a fast winger and a decent striker when he has it? Why does he like to play players out of position? Moyes has to be held accountable for the mistakes he made.

To you guys that say, "It's not Black Bill's fault. Moyes picks the team, the tactics, etc."

I agree but don't you just feel if we'd have had a budget in the summer to get Donovan or even Bellamy that we wouldnt be in this position now?

Despite the lack of a RM, we're playing reasonable football, just not converting the chances and conceding silly goals.That is down to the players and their quality.

Moyes has been dealt the quality he has got while even Woy managing a club massively in debt is given a budget to buy top quality players.

Martin #20 Can I jus correct you.

Earl did not put any money in to help Kenwright.

In fact not one of the directors has put a penny into the club and have no plans to do so.

Also it is widely rumoured that Earl is just fronting Green's shareholding.

I accept Moyes has his faults but what manager doesnt.

Jol and O'neill both produced inferior results to Moyes in the prem despite spending more on players so I stick by my opinion that while Kenwright is in charge I cannot think of a better manager.

As regards the charge of the "bash Moyes" brigade ? I think that it is perfectly within "my rights" as an Evertonian to be critical of the manager if I believe that he deserves criticism. I would never go to a game and join in any [manager] out call (whoever the manager was/is at the time). I felt Gordon Lee was losing the plot for about 2 or 3 years before he left... but I never went to a game at Goodison and called for him to be sacked.

It's not a case of Moyes bashing ? It's simply that I think his tactics have become too cautious and predictable. I don't think he is able to get the best out of our squad, especially the creative players. That's not based on our first 6 matches ? it's what I have thought for about a year. I don't understand why he is so fond of playing 4-5-1 in virtually very match. I can understand it against the likes of Arsenal ? but against Wigan, Wolves and Stoke City and other such teams!!!

If David Moyes is more adventurous with his tactics and less predictable, I will be more than happy to have been proved wrong. I will be overjoyed!!!

Both Jol and O'Neill can't function properly unless they are buying players all the time.

It's ironic that Spurs fans I know consider that things have calmed down in this respect now the arch wheeler-dealer, Hawwy, is in charge as he used to have a revolving door at Pompey ( with a postbox for brown envelopes next to it - allegedly ahem ).

These people could not function on a million pounds a transfer window budget which is all BK can give them.

Hi Everton fans,

I`m not an Everton fan but I`m desperate to hear 40,000 fans sing a new song about David Moyes in the style of "Bad Bays":

Rather than:

"Bad Boys, Bad Boys,
What you gonna do,
what you gonna do
when they come for you?"

I want to hear:

"David Moyes, David Moyes,
what you gonna do,
what you gonna do
if he doesn`t pick you?
David Moyes, David Moyes".

So come on you True Blues... somebody please start this one off ? I think it`s a cracker!!

No.

We are so close to the situation that we tend to overthink the issues at EFC.

This quote is an example of how outsiders view our situation:
Everton, who were unfortunate not to gain that first win at Fulham last weekend, move out of the bottom three and have plenty of time to challenge for the top-six place which is their annual target.

Joe Lovejoy, Guardian.





Also:
it is the threadbare nature of Liverpool's performances that has come as a shock. Scouse traditionalists may insert a joke at this point, to the effect that as long as Everton are even lower in the table Liverpool will never feel the situation is intolerable, but no one is laughing at that one now. Everton are a strong side with a mighty team spirit and will delight their fans more often than they will displease them this season. No one is calling for David Moyes to be sacked. Everton will be all right.
Paul Wilson, Guardian.

Think on it.

I can see they don't waste too much time on research at the Grauniad! So much easier to churn out comments based upon the established perception of Everton under Moyes - strong, great spirit, top six challengers, "all right". Mediocre is what it says to me.

Dennis,
"Established" was probably the keyword. Things generally don't become that overnight, or for no reason.

Steve, No.

And no one ever refers to themselves on here as true blues.

Why are you here?

Eugene,

The last time I checked, the manager?s prerogative was to get as many points as possible not entertain the fans with champagne football.

If you don't feel you are ?getting your money?s worth? why not either enact your right to go and watch someone else, or support the team (including the manager) regardless of whether or not you are personally gratified by their brand of football.

Wining about the manager who has brought us more (relative) success and stability than any other in the last 25 years, when there is clearly no legitimate alternative in our current financial situation, is selfish, nonsensical, and frankly, a bit of a downer.
Ps. Steve #40 Your cracker of a song doesn't really make any sense. Have you suffered a head injury? Has your medicine cupboard run dry? Or could you be a Shite fan?

No Tom, "mediocre" is the keyword. I fear that's all we'll ever be under Moyes.

Drew, I think your idea of what consituted success over the last 25 years must be different to mine - I dare say I've foolishly been blinded by those nice shiny trophies we sometimes used to win in the olden days!

Tom Hughes - Nail on the head for me.

Dennis, I take your point although I actually said relative success over the last 25 years as appose to actual success over the last 125.

In the last quarter of a century, we have won precisely one major trophy by my reckoning with an average league placing well below what we regularly achieve now, so I would argue that the regular qualification for Europe achieved during Moyes? tenure could be considered relative success over that period.

We can all dream about winning the league and playing like Barcelona but the pragmatists among us (which fortunately include those at the sharp end in the club) know for a fact that there is no legitimate alternative to Moyes which will positively affect our position under the current financial constraints and therefore his removal will not bring success or sexy football, more likely it will bring Sam Allardyce or Tony Pullis.

Wanting trophies and attractive football is all very well but it?s about as much good as wanting a Rolls-Royce without the means to pay for it.

I personally dread the day that David Moyes decides to leave our club and we return to being relegation strugglers alongside other clubs on our budget ? let?s not force his hand.

Let?s also remember when DM was linked with Aston Villa and other clubs he has always immediately reiterated his loyalty to Everton, it?s a pity it?s not reciprocated by some fans with unrealistic delusions of grandeur.

And lastly, the reason we are having a debate about attractive football and trophies is because over the last 8 years (or however long it is) David Moyes has gradually increased our expectations so that we aspire to achieve rather than not to be relegated.. For a neurotic few a couple of bad results and all that is forgotten.

I see you've found your soap-box Drew, shame you couldn't find a calendar. Maybe my memory is a little hazy, but not as much as yours it seems. You are not aware then that 25 years ago Everton were celebrating their most successful season ever, winning both the League & European Cup-Winners Cup whilst also reaching the FA Cup Final. In 1987 Everton won the League Title again & we had a few other trips to Wembley for Cup Finals & Charity Shields. I presume the one success you can recall is the Cup success of 1995, however, you should be aware that the Sky era didn't start 25 years ago, or even 20, & football existed long before Sky - even before Everton, & that's over 125 years!

Although our average Leage placings under Moyes 8 complete seasons look good compared to the 8 complete seasons prior to his arrival, they aren't as good as the first 8 seasons of your 25 year window, when our average was actually one position higher. Is that "relative success"?

What is ""relative success" anyway? To my mind you have success, i.e. wining things, failure, i.e. relegation, & all the rest is varyiing degrees of mediocrity - which is what we have under Moyes. "Relative success" seems to me a weasel-word expression to avoid saying 'mediocre'.


You don't actually "know for a fact that there is no legitimate alternative to Moyes which will positively affect our position under the current financial constraints and therefore his removal will not bring success or sexy football" - that's just your opinion & to parade your opinion as fact is deceitful & delusional. You may dread the departure of David Moyes, but it'll happen one day & Everton will survive his loss - who knows maybe we'll even thrive.
Moyes was plucked from the lower leagues & turned into a highly paid Premier League manager - Everton have set him up for life. However, although you may consider his display of loyalty commendable, I'm not aware that any club has actually approached Everton & tried to noegotiate for Moyes to be released from his contract - perhaps he's not rated as highly by other clubs as he is at Everton.

I do agree that by achieving more than such as Allardyce, Moyes does in some way make himself more open to criticism, if he appears to fall short. However, I'm not sure about your couple of bad results comment, the current situation is probably relatively short-term & I would only advocate replacing Moyes mid-season if he seemed incapable of ensuring our Premier League survival. In the long run Moyes must be replaced if we have any ambition to win anything again, as I don't believe he is capable of delivering success (actual, not "relative") & I suspect this would still be the case even if he had a larger budget to work with, unless he can recapture the boldness & imagination he seemed to have when he first arrived.

Saying that other people are "neurotic" & have "delusions of grandeur" just because they disagree with you & the other "pragmatists" "at the sharp end in the club" (do you drink in the same pub?) is just self-righteous bluster. Especially when on the one hand you claim Moyes is so good that he's raised everybody's expectations at the club & on the other you claim that it's unrealistic for people to have those expectations !?!?

Dennis, I enjoyed your riposte up until the last paragraph where you rather undermined your point about the legitimacy of my opinion by some rather clumsy/forced paraphrasing and supposition however I?ll give you the benefit of the doubt as I scored a bit of an own goal omitting the ?87 league title.

The point I?m trying to make is that it?s unlikely in my opinion (not a fact as you correctly suggest but rather gratuitously deliberate over), given the financial and commercial restrictions in place at Everton football club that another manager could achieve the results (not relative success) that Moyes has, in the current economic climate.

Hopefully that is concise and well caveated enough for you that we may debate the points and not the rhetoric.

I will concede that Moyes infuriates me occasionally with his tactics and substitutions but I also concede when he does, that I do not have the benefit of the knowledge of minor injuries, player personality, job roles given (etc) that he benefits from as the manager.

My point about neurosis was not because others disagree with my opinion but that they are so quick to react with calls to sack Moyes and wasn?t necessarily referring to present company (posters) but based on worst case observations here and elsewhere.

I?ll treat it as a moral victory (hey, I?ll take any kind of victory this season) that you?ve extended Moyes?s stay of execution for six months, and spend the rest of your post spinning my quotes and arguing semantics.. Any bites?