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Thank the lord Bill is our chairman

By Sur Jo :  10/10/2010 :  Comments (168) :
When I read about the merry-go-round next door, I now realize how lucky we are having an owner like Bill Kenwright. I know I risk a rant from those who despise Bill. However, here is what I see:

i. Under Bill, we are one of the few clubs to have the same manager over the years.

ii. Under Bill, we have slowly and painfully but surely been building a stronger team every year.

iii. Under Bill, we have invested millions on players including several close to £10 million like Fellaini, Yakubu, Bilyaletdinov. I think Johnson was close to that figure as well. We have several close to £5 million including Howard, Jagielka, Distin, Heitinga. A number close to £3 million including Baines, Neville, Pienaar. Therefore, on average, under Bill the club has spent a little over £10 million every season on new players.

Bill has mentioned numerous times that he does not have the money, but still we seem to pull a rabbit out of the hat every now and then and spend millions. True: Bill does not have the money to buy instant success. True: Bill does not have the money to make true the dreams of many Evertonians. Nonetheless, he is not doing what Hicks and Gillett are doing to Liverpool; he is not loading the club with debts like the Glazer family did to Manchester United. And then a few years ago, Aston Villa changed ownership. Can we say that they are better than Everton today as a result of the change in ownership?

How about West Ham? Clubs in big cities will always be attractive. That is especially true of clubs located in London. I mean London is one of the biggest cities in the world and many foreigners want to be there. That?s why Roman Abramovich bought Chelsea. He was not interested in any club outside the city. That?s why QPR is attracting foreign investment. That?s why Keith Harris won?t have a problem to find new owners for Spurs. That?s why Al Fayed bought Fulham. That?s why the Icelanders bought West Ham. The focal point is London and its appeal.

Even players would prefer to sign for Spurs and West Ham than for us, even if in terms of league performance we do not lag behind. Case in point: Pienaar wants to go to Spurs and Yak wanted to go to West Ham! Tell me which club in the midlands or the North (except those from the big cities) is outshining all kinds of oppositions these days? None.

There is no guarantee that the next owner after Bill will be better. There is no-one out there to replace Bill. Do you know of someone; I mean can you give me a name? I have heard enough about billionaires from Russia, India and the Middle East. Can you name me one person from these places who have publicly shown a passion for Everton better than Bill?

I have seen Everton during the dark days and that day when we escaped relegation by goal difference the last time Howard Kendall was around. I prefer the consistency, gradual improvement, certainty and stability under Bill than the yo-yoing at West Ham, Leeds, and hopefully soon at Liverpool.

Thank you, Bill Kenwright. We are owned by a fan and an investor rather than an investor alone. Football in this country cannot be managed as a business. Period.

Reader Comments

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Alan McGuffog
1   Posted 10/10/2010 at 14:53:02

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It's hard to find fault with what you say. However, whilst things remain as they are at Goodison, this, I am afraid, is about as good as it ever will get. We will "punch above our weight" and we will continue to unearth gems such as Rooney and Rodwell but we will struggle to keep hold of them.

From a selfish point of view, I don't really mind. I am happy to follow a club such as ours, any day, than have a club that can go out and buy success... a la Chelsea, City etc. Then again, I have 50 years of memories that include a fair few successful years... cups and titles in the 1960s, a load of shite in the 70s, and the great days of the 80s.

The younger guys, like my son, I feel sorry for. For them, under this regime, it's just groundhog feckin day. And more false dawns than a thing that has a lot of false dawns

Brian Hill
2   Posted 10/10/2010 at 15:14:00

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Kenwright very recently claimed that he was talking to three interested parties ? Keith Harris says there is no interest in Everton. Who do you believe?
Marc Williams
3   Posted 10/10/2010 at 15:26:13

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To paraphrase your idol... "I'm not going to answer your post, I'm bored by it"!!!!!
Jay Harris
4   Posted 10/10/2010 at 15:22:57

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For Sur Jo read Richard Dodds Esq. They say in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is King. Well, Bill is that one-eyed man.

Apart from David Moyes and his success on the pitch, the club has totally stagnated under Kenwright. One of the lowest net spends on players per year in the Premiership; a number of U-turns on stadium development so that GP has been allowed to deteriorate. At least Johnson gave us the Park End stand.

All assets sold off or mortgaged to the extent we're now paying around £5 million a year in interest despite the sales of Rooney, Lescott, Beattie, Johnson and McFadden.

We have made an operating loss every year but one of Kenwright's reign and now have debts of around £80 million with less than half of the RS income. Ask Spurs, Arsenal or Villa if Football in this country cannot be managed as a business!!

For the record, neither Bill nor any of the board have put a single penny of their money into the club but will still manage a large return on their share purchase when they decide the time to sell is right. The only reason we havent got a new buyer is down to the terms of the sale ? something which Bill and his cronies decide. It has got nothing whatsoever to do with Bill rejecting unsuitable buyers.

I really don't know why some people cannot see through this perpetual liar.
David O'Keefe
5   Posted 10/10/2010 at 15:42:49

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Marc: Brilliant.

Jay: I will give a considered response to Sur Jo's post tomorrow. You're going to love it.
David Moorcroft
6   Posted 10/10/2010 at 15:19:35

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Sorry Sur, but that is the biggest load of shite I have heard since Dodd last posted on here. You convieniently forget to mention all the LIES he has told. The man cost us what would have probably been the most iconic stadium in the world with his, in my opinion deliberate fucking up of the Kings Dock deal.

Remember, it wasn't long after that the Kirkby shit surfaced. The prick was trying to kill our club by that move. But, hey, he was going to make millions out of it, so fuck the club he says he loves.

But what really fucks my head up is that when a staunch EVERTONIAN and SHAREHOLDER asks him a perfectly reasonable question ? don't forget, Kenwright said the club was for sale ? when the shareholder asked him how much he wanted for the club, his answer was to lean back in his chair and yawn while saying "BORING" to the shareholder!

You say we have spent £10 mill a season on new players ? No we haven't. He is no better than the yanks over the park, only on a smaller scale. He is buying players with bank loans. Make no mistake, we are going exactly the same way, only in a slower fashion.

He is the biggest LIAR in the world as far as I am concerned.

Nick Entwistle
7   Posted 10/10/2010 at 15:51:11

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Points one and two are down to Moyes.

It does annoy me when people say that the most successful teams are the ones who stick by their manager. Yet aren't those managers the ones who were successful to begin with?

Point three? Investment in players has come from player sales.

We don't know whether Bill would frow cash at the situation in the same way many clubs have, only due to his mismanagement that hasn't been an option. Still, every cloud...

In years to come Moyes will have a very interesting autobiography, especially when scribing pre-season transfers... or lack of them.
Ste Traverse
8   Posted 10/10/2010 at 15:57:26

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What a complete pile of gushing SHITE.

No doubt you lap up all stuff his chums down at the Echo publish.

Thank the lord Bill is our chairman? I'll be thanking the lord the day this lying, bungling, egotistical twat ISN'T our chairman.
Art Jones
9   Posted 10/10/2010 at 16:09:08

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I've no real doubt that Kenwright is an Everton fan but when Moyes came along and dragged the team kicking and screaming into the 21st century and not only set the bar higher but bashed it hard against that glass ceiling, the mantle of "Chairman" grew far too big for him and all his "misleading statements" have failed to mask this fact.

His bumbling attempts to hang on to his toy are now not only embarrassing but, as this summer has shown, quite dangerous to the extent that Moyes was forced to take Beckford as the answer to an obvious striker problem whilst teams like Sunderland have Bent and Gyan and Stoke have Kenwyn Jones ? any of whom would have a positive impact. Thanks, Bill.

Charles King
10   Posted 10/10/2010 at 16:17:33

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Sur Jo, thanks for the entertainment; trouble is, when you read David Moorcroft's reply, you stop laughing. I agree with him: BK is shafting us and hiding behind the "Blue Bill" sobriquet.

We're drifting.
Gareth Fieldstead
11   Posted 10/10/2010 at 16:32:27

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Sorry, Sur Jo, but that was pure vomit-inducing stuff! Kenwright is the second-worst chairman we have had.

If Moyes was to write his autobiography tomorrow he could title it Missed Opportunities, and that is because of the narcissist we have as chairman. Rooney, Kings Dock, numerous top five finishes that were crying out for genuine investment to allow Moyes to finish the job he has done so well but, time and time again, money has only ever been raised through player sales. Look at Everton's transfer dealings ? Moyes has averaged £4 million to spend per season since he took over at the club.

He talks about investment yet fails to mention that he is only interested in spending other people's money because he has no intention of actually selling his shareholding. As for the stability of a long-serving manager, not even an idiot like Kenwright would have had the gall to sack Moyes, he would be facing a backlash bigger than that experienced by Johnson or the two fools that own Liverpool.

As for ongoing improvement, I sadly think we will be back in the bottom three after the derby and let's see what happens then. Moyes informed the Board that he needed a new striker last season, instead he was allowed to spend a million on a nobody and hope that two crocks would somehow score the goals ?something that has clearly not happened.

Like Ste states, the day this gobshite is no longer in charge of my club will be the day I thank the Lord

Phil Iveson
12   Posted 10/10/2010 at 17:02:13

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I'm sure Bill is a great fella and the ideal solution would be if we could get investment and keep Bill on, but we all know it just doesn't work like that. So, if we want to compete in the transfer market and on the pitch, something or someone has to go. Sorry Bill!
Ernie McAllister
13   Posted 10/10/2010 at 17:19:47

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If Moyes was to write his autobiography tomorrow he could title it Missed Opportunities.

And in it he could elaborate why he is a one dimensional shitbag incapable of managing a team with more than 11 players in it.

I can see it now Gareth.
Chapter 1 .. Tactics... what is that?
Chapter 2 .. We need more midfielders and defenders.
Chapter 3 .. How to turn a striker into a crap midfielder or defender.
Chapter 4 .. How to successfully get battered by weak and inferior teams.
Chapter 5 .. I love Big Blue Bill... he shows me lots of love and respect.
Chapter 6 .. How I got chased out of Goodison.
Chapter 7 ..How to be successful in breaking unwanted records.
Chapter 8 .. My wife and my kids voted for me in the LMA, including loverboy SAF

But this isn't about Moyes despite the above.

You are thankful about Kenwright being in charge of the club? The perennial bullshitter who can't tell the truth if his or his family's life depended on it? Sorry but, compared to Agent Johnson, to me this guy is a 100 times worse in so many different ways. Like a parasite you have to swot it off... but hey I am looking forward to the Championship if it means we can get rid of these aweful scum on the Everton Board.

Kenwright has done nothing right, apart from smile, pretend to cry and generally bullshit his way through everything. A True Blue? don't make me laugh.
Philip Jeffries
14   Posted 10/10/2010 at 17:54:25

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We have someone at the helm who is one of our own. Yes, I have moments when I cringe listening to what comes out of Bill's mouth. But he has done a lot more than good and I am happy for him to take his time.

I think Evertonians need to look at the league table and remember where we were when he took us over. We have nothing. NOTHING. We were on the brink of relegation. He has turned it all around and the best manager in the league trusts him. So that is good enough for me.

Kenwright had to re-mortgage his own house to get the club away from Johnson. Yes, he is no billionaire. But the qualities and stability he has brought this club have been remarkable.

So those who trust in Kenwright and Moyes continue to do so. Those that don't.... take a look at where we were before Bill put his money where his mouth was...
Michael Kenrick
15   Posted 10/10/2010 at 18:02:50

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Brian Hill (#2), I thought what Keith Harris is reported to have said does not contradict Blue Bill:

"We are involved in a lot of deals, which I think are going to happen. You do your best to check them out and make sure they have bona fides, and then when you ask politely to see some of the money and they disappear. It's strange."

In fact, if anything, it seems to be a case of them signing from the same hymmsheet.

Alex Doyle
16   Posted 10/10/2010 at 17:43:27

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@ Jay Harris, would you care to share we you are getting the figure of £80 million for the current debt level? The last published figure was £37.9 million, in 2009. For those who don't want to trawl through annual reports, may I recommend http://www.football-finances.org.uk/, an excellent unbiased look at football finances.

For those who hark back to the Johnson era, you have extremely short memories. Unlike some here, I don't think Kenwright is the devil incarnate. He's a competent if limited administrator, who is genuinely doing his best for the club.
Brian Waring
17   Posted 10/10/2010 at 18:09:02

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I thought I would never hear anyone more sycophantic than our very own Doddy, then you come along Sur Jo, and surpass him.
Michael Evans
18   Posted 10/10/2010 at 18:06:30

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I mean no disrespect to anyone's religious/spiritual beliefs but does anyone else find this growing use of religious wording to describe BK and DM a little bit .... well, weird ?

We have "In Moyes we Trust" and "The Moysiah". The other day on another site I read Joe Jennings' comment that to many Everton fans DM was a "Sacred Cow".

We are now urged to "Thank the Lord Bill is our Chairman" ... err, really ?

What have I missed ? Is our continuing stagnation really to do with them taking us collectively "into the wilderness" ? Or is the contract that DM negotiated for himself a "modern day miracle" ?

Hallelujah !

Steve Wolfe
19   Posted 10/10/2010 at 18:22:12

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@ Alex Doyle 15

I think that Johnson was terrible for Everton, just as Kenwright has been/is.

I tell you what, you compile a list of bad things that Johnson did to Everton, and I will match it. In fact, I guarantee I will beat it, by all the negative things Bill has achieved in his reign so far.
Dennis Stevens
20   Posted 10/10/2010 at 18:36:35

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What a long-winded way of saying that you're pleased to have Kenwright as Chairman because you think the owners of some other clubs are worse and you fear that a change at Everton might also be for the worse. Wow!

A shame you didn't consider whether any other clubs have ownwers who are better than our current incumbents ? or whether it's possible a change might be for the better. That is possible, you know!
Terry Maddock
21   Posted 10/10/2010 at 18:28:44

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I'm not the greatest fan of Bill Kenwright... cringeworthy some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth...

But amongst all the goings on over the park, has anybody considered that when these "interested parties" show up at Goodison, that Bill simply does say "show me the money"..?

What if the interested parties say say, "Well, on paper I"m a millionaire a hundred times over"... Again, "Show me the money" "I own a baseball team, a hockey team, a basketball team..." ? "SHOW ME THE MONEY ? Not remortgage the club to buy me out, not load extra debt on the club to make a few bob.... if you want to buy it... SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!"

Jimmy Hacking
22   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:04:38

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Michael Evans - hilarious!

I have read the article four or five times now, with the aid of a couple of large brandies. I honestly cannot figure out for the life of me whether it is gushing praise or the most wonderful piece of sarcasm.

I am apparently a "Kenwright-lover" or at least have been labelled as such after pointing out one or two of the better things he's done, but even I find this piece to be ludicrous.
David Hallwood
23   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:13:03

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Sur, you have done the equivalent of waving a crucifix at a coven of vampires (or whatever the collective noun is ? how about a corpuscle?). To continue the biblical theme that Michael Evans (#17) commented on, I?m agnostic when it comes to Bill, but I?m one of the few on here that is and defending BK on these pages to 80% of the posters on TW amounts to heresy (Oh that ol? time religion yet again).

I must admit I?m always shocked at the venom directed towards our Bill, and anyone who wandered on to this website, must think that BK is a combination of Pol Pot, Hitler and Ian Huntley. For what it?s worth my view is that the only thing wrong with Kenwright is that he?s not rich enough, but then again, I also think that football clubs should be able to finance themselves and would like Fifa or Uefa to ban the rich man?s train set approach to club ownership.

But I would like to think that there isn?t a blue out there when they see the Glazers and Waldorf & Statler, doesn?t think ?We dodged a bullet there?.
Jim Potter
24   Posted 10/10/2010 at 18:22:30

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So, what have we found out. Nothing new that's for sure. Some of us like him, some of us dislike him and mixtures of both have some doubts about his ultimate motives.

Do you think fans of other clubs feel differently about their incumbent Chairmen? No. A lot have real reasons to despise theirs ? rather than just on guess work, innuendo and interpreting things biasedly all the time. There is one side to too may of some anti Bill stories ? you wouldn't allow Kenwright to tell his as you wouldn't listen anyway.

At least Kenwright comes from the area and is a Blue. ('Big deal' I can hear, but it is to me). Not a stetson-wearing cigar-chomping tool from 3,000 miles away who merely views our club as a temporary plaything that one day they'll tire of and sell on to God knows who (when they've left all their debts on the club's books).

Reality check. We have not been the 'Merseyside Millionaires' for a long long time now. We were very recently perpetual 'down and outs' fighting relegation. 1987 is a long time ago fella's. We fell a long way.

And yet despite this, without any real money, we've over performed league-wise for season after season. No, not compared to the 80s ? but compared to our real position in the financial league table.

"Yeah, but I wanna win the Premier League ? not make do with being happy with 5th and making a cup final". Don't we fuckin' all ? but how?! Wishing hasn't worked has it?

If a benevolent (non-asset-stripping, Blue-loving) billionaire sugar daddy is really out there, then why hasn't he taken us over already if Kenwright is just holding out for what he can get? It's because, for us, this monied Messiah just does not exist.

Wake up, all you Walter Mitty's for Christ sake.

Would I like to see us dripping in riches ? you bet I do. But we're not. So, grasping that fact ? look again at what we've done under Moyes. It's pretty damn impressive on what he's had to work with.

And for those who want rid of Moyes ? who exactly do you think is going coming rushing in to replace him ? when your wish is granted and He goes ? Mourinho? Wenger? Err .... more like Alladyce or some other hideous afterbirth.

I think there are realists ? and dreamers ? and some a little of both. We all want the same thing ? but see the situation very differently.

COYB.
Tony McNulty
25   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:13:10

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To me, this post is such a wind up. It reads like a parody. The writer is so far up Kenwright?s arse he could whistle ?Blood Brothers? through his false teeth.

Sur Jo? Mmm. Can anyone else remember this this character posting before? Hemingway said that everyone should develop their own crap detector. I think I know what I can detect.

Alex Doyle
26   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:10:52

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@ Steve Wofle.

Well Toffeeweb themselves cover them pretty comprehensively.

http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/business/chairmen/johnson.asp

One point stands out for me.

Peter Johnson is a Liverpool supporter.
David O'Keefe
27   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:18:11

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Jim, I prefer to look at the facts myself. Sure, Bill's a blue but that shouldn't be used to excuse his conduct/performance as chairman.

In fact, Jim, all you have said regarding BK is that someone else could be worse.

I don't think you're in a position to call anyone a Walter Mitty, considering your steadfast refusal to acknowledge some uncomfortable truths about this lifelong blue.
David O'Keefe
28   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:24:01

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Alex, if Bill being a Blue is the only positive thing you can say about him, then you have already lost the argument.
David Price
29   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:12:52

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You just knew what was awaiting when this article hit the screen and fair play for saying what you believe. I remember Johnson selling Barmby, Hutchinson, Collins and then Ferguson.
The look on Walter Smith's face when asked by the press of his knowledge of Dunc's sale, I think he said about 3 hours before the deal was done.

Johnson was a disgrace and if Kenwright is a little more private with us but in total harmony with Moyes then I'll settle for that. It's easy to criticise an option than define a solution and a lot of us can fall into that trap. If Bill is stopping investment through a hunger to retain power, then he's out of order. Thing is we don't know what goes on, look at the Anfield mess to understand the murky financial waters surrounding football.

In my heart, I believe Bill's stewardship and Moyes's management has protected this club from relegation and made us a much respected outfit compared to the days of Johnson. Calling Bill a liar can only be said when the truth is made clear. Kirkby looked a good deal, Kings Dock as well, but do we know enough of the facts when assessing Bill's relaibility?

Until then I've an open mind on our current ownership ? what I do know is I'll be waking up on Friday 15th, a bit nervy of the derby but totally unworried on whether my club will be docked 9 points for financial screw-ups.

Michael Kenrick
30   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:22:16

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Tony, I had my doubts when I read it. "Sur Jo" is a new poster and a new member... but seemed genuine enough to me ? if very poorly informed.

For any Evertonian to believe that "under Bill the club has spent a little over £10 million every season on new players" means we have been seriously failing in our duty to keep the fanbase informed ? or that person's maths skills are seriously questionable.

Fans like "Sur Jo" ? who's e.mail includes the name Shrakesh ? should be aware of what appears to be the main reason why there has been no progress on investment or sale of the club all these years under Kenwright: it's because BILL WANTS TOO MUCH MONEY. The asking price is apparently somewhere between £180M and £250M ? which is simply astounding. No wonder he was, *ahem*, bored by that particular question!!!

The huge irony for me is looking back to the way Kenwright acquired the Club in the first place, and how long and drawn out that process was. The reason: pretty much exactly the same ? Johnson wanted too much money. From memory, I think the number back then (1998?) was around £100M. Over the ensuing 12-18 months, the reported price kept dropping and dropping until Bill (with the backing of his friends) secured a very sweet deal that valued the club at 'just' under £30M (35,000 × £857 per share).

Did he really mortgage his house? I swallowed that line like everyone else... but over the years, I've begun to think that has to be one of his best lies ? it was so believable everybody swallowed it, and I have never seen anyone question it.

So, at anywhere from £180M to £250M, just think how much sheer undiluted profit Bill Kenwright (and chums) will be looking at... DO THE MATHS!! It's simply astounding. All that money, made off the back of EFC starved of real investment. That is the real essence of the crime we are in process of witnessing here...
Gavin Ramejkis
31   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:28:04

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What a load of twaddle, BK is a cancer at this club and has held us back for years, DM has detracted from his annual bullshitisms and lies for years. Of the content how about your summation: "Thank you Bill Kenwright. We are owned by a fan and an investor rather than an investor alone. Football in this country cannot be managed as a business. Period." Well, how would you explain the DK hearings which clearly stated that NOT ONE of the major shareholders at Everton, including BK would be willing to sell or dilute their shareholdings to the benefit of developing the club?

Now that is a clear and blatant display of looking for a healthy payday profit and nothing else, so he is looking to line his pockets which I'll point out is the core of capatalism and business and investment.

Black Bill is worse than Peter Swayles in that, in the heyday of the EPL flush with cash to be milked, he fucked up year after year and missed the boat on every single occasion.

Jim Potter, BK did transfer the debt of purchasing the club onto it, check the club's finances right after he bought it from Johnson, it's been debated here lots of times before, he's just a lesser potless version.

Alex Doyle, how about Sir Philip Green and the now anonymous Robert Earl? ? they are Spurs supporters, means fuck all running a business, BK uses it as an excuse.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
32   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:44:12

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Steve, you sound like an Evertonian to me.

I wonder if you'll be getting an apology from all those who called you a kopite?

Thought not...
Eugene Ruane
33   Posted 10/10/2010 at 19:28:07

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'Jim', erm... can I have a word.. um..'downstairs?'











Just between me and you, I SWEAR I wont tell any of them up there. It's you isn't it ? you're BK?
John Daley
34   Posted 10/10/2010 at 20:35:46

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Sur Jo,

If you hear a knock at the door around midnight and there's a wiry little guy wielding a knife with a crazed look in his eyes and asking to use your phone.... don't let him in.

If you receive an e-mail from a group of Nigerian business men saying they've got a wonderful money making opportunity for you.... do not give them your bank account details.

If your young Thai bride-to-be asks you to forward money so that she and her family can get flights to the UK for the nuptials....call it all off.

If the guy down the pub asks you to store a rolled up, blood soaked carpet with a pair of feet sticking out the end in your garage...politely refuse.

If a heavily overweight, one-eyed, middle aged Mancunian with an erect cock asks you if you want to go for a ride in his car...run like fuck lad.

I'm seriously worried about someone so gullible and naive in this day and age.
Albert Perkins
35   Posted 10/10/2010 at 20:21:05

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if anyone was really serious about buying EFC they would make a high profile offer and we would all know about it. There is talk about Bill wanting £200M or so and where is the evidence? The people making efforts to buy us are probably as skint as Bill and therefore not better for us.

Of course we want to do better. I've been here since the great 60s when we were the rich club able to buy the big name players like Ball. Times have changed and we are lower down the pecking order, but it's still MY EVERTON. Aiming for the top 6 and occasionally beating the big clubs, playing some good stuff. It will have to do for now. OK, I want us to play more attacking stuff.

But it is what it is. It's really lame that I'm getting my kicks enjoying Liverpool's problems right now. I am enjoying the moment. Let's all take 3 deep breaths and be aware of our heartbeat. AHHHHHH.
Relax.

Then shout our fuckin heads off at the derby, we gotta win this one. How much fun will it be to beat the bastards. If they win they get out of jail. Let's lock 'em up and throw away the key! That'll keep me happy for a little while.
Bill Slater
36   Posted 10/10/2010 at 21:01:35

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Steve I did invite you to prove you were a blue in my vulgar fashion, but the "invitation" was removed. If you are, then I am truely sorry as there can be no greater insult to man.
Dan Brierley
37   Posted 10/10/2010 at 21:02:12

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Where does the 'apparent' asking price of £180-250 million come from? This is the first time I have heard of it.

Yet again we hear the 'he hasn't put his own money in' snippet. He's the fucking chairman! Which chairman in their right mind, in any business uses their own money???

And again, the complaints regarding things being farmed out, sold off, re-mortgaged. This refinancing has given us the squad and manager we have today. The fact is if these things hadn't been done, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN RELEGATED BY NOW.
Jim Potter
38   Posted 10/10/2010 at 21:37:47

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David (O'Keefe) - I'm a Walter Mitty myself - day dreaming of glory. But then given our real financial position that's all I can do. I'm not saying he's a saint, far from it, but I just prefer him to chairmen like the shite currently have or could soon have again. Sorry. If we could get someone with money and the club's best intentions at heart - happy days. Do they exist though?

Eugene - keep it between us mate.
David O'Keefe
39   Posted 10/10/2010 at 21:57:09

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Jim: Do you really believe that BK has the clubs best intentions at heart?

Look at the facts again, forget that he is a Blue because that doesn't ultimately matter.
Kunal Desai
40   Posted 10/10/2010 at 21:53:04

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Sur Jo ? I'm assuming you were considerably drunk when you wrote this piece. I mean:

"Under Bill, we have invested millions on players including several close to £10 million like Fellaini, Yakubu, Bilyaletdinov. I think Johnson was close to that figure as well".

Does the player sale proceeds ring a bell to you? £10M or thereabouts did not appear magically from under Bills pocket?!

"We have several close to £5 million including Howard, Jagielka, Distin, Heitinga". ? As per same comment above.

"A number close to £3 million including Baines, Neville, Pienaar. Therefore, on average, under Bill the club has spent a little over £10 million every season on new players". ? I think you'll find the funds have dried up over the last three seasons.

"Bill has mentioned numerous times that he does not have the money, but still we seem to pull a rabbit out of the hat every now and then and spend millions".

Again where are the rabbits out of the hat the last three seasons???
Sorry but you talk rubbish.
Jay Harris
41   Posted 10/10/2010 at 22:00:38

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Alex #15
The figure of £80 million was announced by Robert Elstone at last years AGM so watch this space.

BTW competent administrators, as you refer to Kenwright as, do not manage operating losses year after year and they also have long- and medium-term business plans.

Bill hasn't got a clue what the club will be doing next week, never mind next year.
Ste Traverse
42   Posted 10/10/2010 at 22:14:46

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David Price ? How could Johnson have sold Hutchison, Barmby and Collins when he sold up in December 1999 and those 3 didn't leave til the summer of 2000? Ferguson left well before them too, not after.

Some fans will say anything to make 'Blue Bill' look good.
Jay Harris
43   Posted 10/10/2010 at 22:17:47

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Michael #28.
At the time Kenwright's wealth was listed at £1.5 million including his house.

As you know I have questioned for some time where the £20 million that Kenwright gave Johnson for his shares came from and how in the first 18 months of Kenwright's reign, Everton's debts rose from £5M to over £20M a theory that was also supported by a financial analyst who went over EFC's accounts at that time. (A report I posted here on ToffeeWeb.)

Now before I get accused of insinuating fraud, that is not what I am alleging as it was not uncommon in a takeover at that time for a controlling shareholder to be paid off out of funds that were in the company. In fact it is similar to what Hicks and Gillette have done (except they borrowed theirs from RBS) but in a much smaller way.

However, to buy Johnson out for around £20 million and then claim to have EFC's best interests at heart while looking for £180 million for a club that is in a much worse financial state now just about sums the man up for me.
Eric Myles
44   Posted 11/10/2010 at 02:14:19

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Jay #4 "Apart from David Moyes and his success on the pitch"

Did I miss something? Did we win a cup in the last 6 years?

Rob Hollis
45   Posted 11/10/2010 at 06:45:54

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I don't live in Liverpool anymore and only really go into the city for the match. I was in favour of Kirkby at first and later changed my mind. However, that is not the point of this post.

I work in Manchester, a fantastic city, one that has put Liverpool into second place for years. Today, I visited Liverpool town centre for the first time in god knows how long and my view was changed in an instant. The place is STUNNING. Full of tourists, amazing new architecture mixed with the fantastic old stuff. A waterfront that there is nothing in the UK to rival.

....and I thought. This amazing place, lots of tourists and we missed the Kings Dock opportunity. Our profile would have rocketed at the epicentre of an amazing and vibrant waterfront.

I don't know our Chairman or his motives for not allowing his former business partner to finance the Kings Dock Stadium but it is undoubtably the biggest mistake ever made by an Everton Chairman.

An Everton Stadium on that waterfront would have been THE stadium in the country. The place is incredible.

Mr Kenwright, you will long be remembered.

Gavin Ramejkis
46   Posted 11/10/2010 at 07:37:40

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Dan Brierley, the £180M plus has been discussed on this site a number of times post the Kirkby fuckup. The refinancing was done primarily to appease the clubs growing list of creditors rather than strengthening the squad. In essence the company is running at a significant loss thus refinanced whenever possible to help repayment capabilities as it appears to have long or medium strategy for off pitch earnings.

BK has relied on the monoculture of DM pulling the squad higher in the league and even getting to an FA Cup final and reasonable finish in the league standings accounted for fuck all being available for transfer funds. The evolving plan now appears to be sell to buy, how long do you think that will last?

Alan Clarke
47   Posted 11/10/2010 at 08:51:03

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Philip Jeffries, is your comment about looking at the league table tongue in cheek? I just looked at the league table and we're EXACTLY where we were when Kenwright took over.
Alex Sinclair
48   Posted 11/10/2010 at 10:00:58

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The sense of entitlement of some folks is staggering. Comparisons with Johnson are ridiculous. Kenwright is far from perfect but at least he's built a good enough relationship with our manager which has allowed DM to build a strong squad capable of challenging for Champions League qualification. I guess I must have missed the article which highlit the list of billionaire suitors given the knockback by 'Greedy' BK. They're falling over themselves to invest apparently...
Phil Martin
49   Posted 11/10/2010 at 10:01:07

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What's the difference between Kenwright and the two cowboys across the park? Accents aside, they're all incompetent and holding their clubs back.

The danger is that Billy is percieved as one of us and so nothing truly bad can ever hapen.

Yet we gloat at Liverpool's misfortune rather than our own success (because we have none).

Tell me (putting places of birth aside) how many half truths about transfer funds/future signings does someone have to make to be deemed untrustworthy?

How many ground move/Stadium related fuck-ups does someone have to make before they're rightly classed as incompetent?

How many lies/stories/bullshit about there being no interested investors/3-4 investors/6 investors a year, do we have to hear before we can call someone a liar?

Our only forum to put questions to the club's leadership was removed last year. Billy and co no longer care what the fanbase thinks or wants to know. Yet because "he's a blue" some people think he has our best interests.

How many seasons of knocking on the top 4 do we squander with no funds before our best players/coach move onto more ambitious clubs?

We've sold almost every asset the club has. We're mortgaged to the eyeballs. We sold our greatest player for a generation. And people have the stupidity to thank the lord the guy in charge wasn't an American.

Robert Daniels
50   Posted 11/10/2010 at 10:14:49

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Alex,

There might not be billionaires out there waiting to invest in us, but our beloved chairman has wasted a golden, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to move to the Kings Dock.

He has failed to invest in the stadium, and even now is about to miss another opportunity through shortsightedness, ie, building the new development at the Park End instead of building a second tier on the stand, increasing capacity and revenue.
Oliver Molloy
51   Posted 11/10/2010 at 10:49:53

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The former Crystal Palace owner, Simon Jordan, said on Sky's Goals on Sunday yesterday that he had "gone with the wrong bloke" when trying to sell the club.

That bloke was a certain Keith Harris. He didn't elaborate further!

Nelaj Behajiha
52   Posted 11/10/2010 at 10:59:58

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I'm sorry but who believes that there hasn't been serious attempts to buy Everton. We play in a decaying part of Liverpool which isn't particualry advertising for investors. Everton fans won't be overhcharged and there isn't a huge demand for tickets at GP so naturally I can understand why no-one has invested.
Gavin Ramejkis
53   Posted 11/10/2010 at 11:15:15

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Nelaj, West Ham is a shithole, Portsmouth is a shithole, QPR is a shithole, Everton is in the same so-called shithole as the RS... the argument of being in a shithole makes no fucking sense. The nuance of buyer and investor, look up the difference.
Alex Doyle
54   Posted 11/10/2010 at 11:10:19

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For anyone who is interested in the financial side, you might like this:

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2010/04/why-has-nobody-bought-everton.html
David Thomas
55   Posted 11/10/2010 at 10:56:19

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Michael,
"The asking price is apparently somewhere between £180M and £250M"

Please can you state were the above piece of information has come from? This is the first I have heard of this.
Marc Williams
56   Posted 11/10/2010 at 11:02:14

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John 33# - Fantastic !

Dan Brierley 36# - You ask about the £180M - 250M asking price & say you've not seen these figures before. They've definitely been quoted on ToffeeWeb before & I've certainly posted the £180 million myself.

As the chairman WILL NOT answer questions at shareholders meetings about this, I can only tell you where I got that figure from. As I will not name the individual or his company, it's understandable if you don't want to believe me.

For what it's worth then... Through one of my hobbies I know an accountant who works for a company that does the accounts of numerous football clubs in the Football League. I know this to be a fact as they have corporate box's at those clubs, one of which I was invited to by him.

A couple of years ago I was at a weekend event with this guy & we got talking about football. At the time the £180 million figure was supposedly what everyone 'in the know' (i.e. within football finance ) knew was being quoted to anyone who enquired about Everton.

My own view is that EFC was NOT for sale as Bill's 'Friends/Ghost Backers' seemed to have a different plan for the club at that time. Perhaps the over-inflated £180M quote was designed to put off potential buyers (if the owners thought they'd get more after a retail 'tie-in' move) or perhaps they were just chancing their arm.
Under this Board, very few actually know the truth, & one of them was (alledgedly) given 150,000 reasons NOT to share it.

David Thomas
57   Posted 11/10/2010 at 12:39:57

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Marc,

I think Dan like myself is not questioning whether someone has said a figure of £180 - £250 million on one of their posts. What I am asking is and I presume Dan the same that we have never heard the Board mention what sort of value they are after, we have never heard a potential investor / buyer quote a figure, or Keith Harris who is supposed to be looking for investors / buyers quote a figure ? so how can people come up with a figure between £180-£250 million? None of us have any idea what they are after it could be £5 million. 25 million, 50 million, 100 million, 200 million, 300 million etc etc etc.

Michael, please can you confirm what source you have your figure from, is it the same as Marc's?
Jimmy Hacking
58   Posted 11/10/2010 at 13:02:29

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Fear not lads, I'm on me way to the newsagent to claim the winnings on a lottery ticket, so get ready for a £113 million investment in the blues... watch this space!
James Cadwaladr
59   Posted 11/10/2010 at 13:57:50

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Sur Jo???? Sure it's not Sir Bill?
Marc Williams
60   Posted 11/10/2010 at 14:04:04

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David 55#, No, you're correct, as far as I'm aware (I might have missed it) but I have not heard a direct quote from a current board member mentioning a price.

However, this isn't surprising is it when the chairman was asked directly to confirm A) That the club was for sale & B) If so what the price was

He point blank, refused to answer the question.

There are countless rumours as to price from £173M up that I've heard & read. I personally have no idea which are true & just throw the above (54#) in to say that the £180 mil' story/rumour was around people involved in football finance about 2 years ago.
Richard Dodd
61   Posted 11/10/2010 at 14:20:47

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Just why ? other than for profit ? should someone invest multi-millions in Everton FC or any other club for that matter? Even those with turnovers exceeding £100M a year can`t see daylight for interest payments and sheiks and ochliarchs doing it only to launder their money.

We`re far better off with Blue Bill ? honest to the core and one of our own. Long may he reign!

Robert Daniels
62   Posted 11/10/2010 at 14:32:11

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Just heard a snippet on Radio City: apparently a guy called Bernie Mullin has been on the radio, saying there is investment interest from America... in Everton! He is from Liverpool originally, it goes on to say.

I just wondered, does anyone else know of him, or anything about this story?!

Ste Traverse
63   Posted 11/10/2010 at 14:30:53

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Kenwright gets away with murder just because he's seen to be a blue. Can you imagine what would happened if 'Kopite' Peter Johnson had banned AGMs/EGMs back in 1997? He'd have been chased out of this City by an angry mob. Yet BK got away with it scot free.
Bill Slater
64   Posted 11/10/2010 at 15:11:34

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Did anyone pick up on this from Robert Elstone's blog on 07/10/10:

"Of course, what?s dominated the debate has been the subject of ownership. Quite rightly, football club ownership is an important and emotive subject. It?s a subject we?re very aware of here, not just in a legal sense but as much, in a ?moral? sense. We can debate the merits of supporters? trusts and fan-generated funds to take ownership stakes but what I?d argue is it?s substance that really matters. And what I mean by that is the provision of the platforms and forums for you to speak, and for us to listen and respond. If we do that effectively, then that?s tangible ownership that can be every bit as powerful as a piece of paper."

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/a-marathon-not-a-sprint
Gavin Ramejkis
65   Posted 11/10/2010 at 15:59:33

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Doddy, 0 out of 10 again ? "honest to the core"... fucking hilarious. Want to buy some magic beans?
Michael Kenrick
66   Posted 11/10/2010 at 15:59:01

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Dave Thomas, I think our Chairman has demonstrated in admirable fashion his total and utter disdain that a mere fan should be so curious. And what you're looking for ? confirmation from a member of the Board ? is sadly unobtainable. No-one inside Everton is going to proffer such a number. It's people on the outside, who have conversations such as Marc's... Hence my use of the word "allegedly".

Of course, you're at liberty to believe, disbelieve, or apply salt to taste. But even his biggest fan must surely question how, after doing years of "24/7", he's come up with nothing, yet he sees seven or eight investors a year... and is talking to three currently. In every case, they depart when asked to "Show us the money"?

Perhaps that's because what Bill's asking for is unrealistic.
Jay Harris
67   Posted 11/10/2010 at 16:28:06

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Doddy ? what core? ... a rotten apple??

As somebody who has spoken to Keith Harris about the sale of the club, I can say the figures being bandied about and the suggestion as to who is controlling the "sale"(?) are not wide of the mark.

If Kenwright truly had the interests of EFC at heart, he would seek out a buyer and recover his initial investment... but, there again, do any of his "fans" believe he will do that!?!
Dennis Stevens
68   Posted 11/10/2010 at 16:27:37

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Robert Daniels ? is this the Bernie Mullin you mean?

BERNARD J. MULLIN President and Chief Executive Officer Atlanta Spirit LLC

Dr Bernie Mullin is considered to be a leading expert in sport marketing and sport management with 28-plus years of experience in the sport and entertainment industry. He is a noted builder of outstanding start-up professional sports franchises and is equally adept at turning around and building back up, existing franchises that previously suffered from declining fan support, which he has accomplished in various markets throughout the United States.

Since 1986, Bernie has held executive positions with professional sports teams in Major League Baseball (MLB), the National Basketball Association (NBA), the National Hockey League (NHL), and the International Hockey League (IHL) as well as NCAA Division 1 Athletics. Mullin came to Atlanta in April 2004 as Atlanta Spirit, LLC's President and Chief Executive Officer, where he was charged with structuring the parent company for the NBA's Atlanta Hawks, NHL's Atlanta Thrashers and the world-class Philips Arena.

In this role, Mullin is in charge of all facets of the Spirit's operations, including all team and business functions for the Hawks and Thrashers, and overseeing the management of Philips Arena. Under his leadership, Atlanta Spirit has significantly improved the economic stability and performance of both team brands. Attendance at Hawks and Thrashers games is steadily rising and the in-arena entertainment experience for fans at Philips Arena has been significantly upgraded, while maintaining the superb customer service and southern hospitality that the arena is famous for.

Prior to his arrival in Atlanta, Mullin served as the NBA's Senior Vice President, Marketing and Team Business Operations for four years. There, his responsibilities included managing and marketing the NBA, WNBA and NBDL brands. He also directed the Team Marketing and Business Operations group that provide management consulting services and strategic information to teams on all business and revenue generating initiatives, most specifically ticket sales, sponsorship sales, marketing, advertising, branding and promotional strategies.

Mullin began his professional sports team career in 1986, serving as Senior Vice President of Business for the Pittsburgh Pirates, where he quickly helped turn around a team that was losing multi-millions of dollars annually by taking the team's attendance and business revenues to all-time franchise record levels.

In 1991, Mullin joined the expansion Colorado Rockies as Senior Vice President of Business Operations where he oversaw all business functions and developed the team's business and marketing plans, recruited and trained the business staff and directed the execution of the programs that produced MLB's all-time attendance record of just below 4.5 million fans in one season, a record that still stands today.

Mullin also acted as the owner's representative on the design and construction of the award-winning Coors Field. At the end of 1993, Mullin became President and General Manager of the expansion Denver Grizzlies of the International Hockey League. There, he oversaw all business and team operations, won a Turner Cup Championship and created a model for successful expansion in the IHL with an average attendance of more than 14,000 fans per game and a 72-20-6 win/loss record.

Prior to and intertwined with his tenure in professional sports, Mullin spent more than a dozen years in intercollegiate athletics and higher education. He served as the Vice Chancellor of Athletics for the University of Denver in the mid-to-late 90's, where he directed the institution's move to NCAA Division I status and nearly $300 million in athletic and recreational facility construction.

Mullin was a Professor of Sport Management at the University of Massachusetts from 1977-86, where he helped build the academic program to international prominence and he also operated a thriving sport marketing and facility management consultancy business. Additionally, he published the best-selling text, Sport Marketing, which is now in its third edition.

The Liverpool, England native played semi-professional football (soccer) for the Oxford City Football Club from 1969-73, and captained his varsity team to back-to-back British Polytechnic Championship finals in 1972 and 1973. Mullin earned a PhD in Business, an MBA and an MS in Marketing from the University of Kansas, where he was elected to membership in Beta Gamma Sigma, the national honor society in business. He also graduated from Coventry University in England with a BA in Business Studies.

Mullin is active in the Atlanta community, serving on the boards of Central Atlanta Progress, the Atlanta Sports Council, and the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce. He resides with his wife, Valerie, in Chastain Park and has three children, Julie, Lara and Steven, a stepson Chad, and two grandchildren, Ian and Niame

Eugene Ruane
69   Posted 11/10/2010 at 16:42:43

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KEEP EVERTON IN OUR CITY!!

Wikipedia update yesterday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Mullin
Bill Slater
70   Posted 11/10/2010 at 16:40:49

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Would an announcement on Friday that we have been bought by the New York Yankees be just the ticket?

Hal Steinbrenner (he's only 40) sitting in the stands for the Derby. Get those USA flags ready and make him feel welcome. Maybe Landon Donovan will be his guest?

"Bill, Bill, wake up, you've slobbered all down your shirt"
Peter Laing
71   Posted 11/10/2010 at 16:48:09

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OK, for argument's sake, this guy Bernie Mullin seems to have all the attributes required for operating a successful sports franchise, he makes an enquiry to Keith Harris and is quoted the figure that has been bandied about previously: £173-250 Million. Kenwright approaches his ghost backers, messrs Earl and Green, who advise him to play hard ball and name his price.

We are £80 million in debt, mortgaged to the hilt, have no saleable assets other than those upon the pitch, have a dilapidated ground and need serious fresh money pumping into the Club. Considering the £300 million NESV deal across the Park, does anybody seriously feel that upwards of £150 million for Everton is realistic?

That's the sticking point and the issue that Michael et al are alluding to; until Uncle Bill gets real, wakes up and smells the coffee and has the balls to tell Green and Earl what he is prepared to accept as reasonable and for the good of Everton, then we will continue in this Catch-22 situation ad infinitum.

Robert Daniels
72   Posted 11/10/2010 at 16:56:09

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Dennis, and Eugene: Thanks, that sounds like the guy!

Wonder if there's any truth in it? Could something be finally about to happen?

Bill Slater, very funny mate. Watch this space lads..... (can't believe I said that .
Bill Slater
73   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:02:17

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Bernie likes the Grand National.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/115731

Favorite book: ?The Audacity of Hope,? - Welcome home son.


Q: PETER DRUCKER wrote, ?There is only one valid definition of business purpose: to create a customer.? How do you create a customer?

Mullin: By building a relationship first and foremost with that person and then with your product. We had what we call a fence-sitters breakfast with 11 Hawks? season-ticket holders who have not yet renewed. Our renewal deadline had passed by about six weeks. Some were waiting to see where the ping-pong balls [in the NBA lottery] went, and others were waiting to see who we were going to draft and who we were going to pick up in free agency. And with those people it?s about building a rapport where they have confidence in myself.
David Thomas
74   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:04:20

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Michael,

He may well be asking for too much, but I still would like to know how you came to the conclusion it was £180-£250 million he wanted?

Could you tell us who you have had a conversation with who has told you that that is the value Kenwright has put on the club, because Marc's tale came after you stated these figures?
Peter Laing
75   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:13:51

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The Everton brand may be minor in comparisson to Manchester United or dare I say Liverpool, but anybody who went to both games at Wembley in 2009 will know that a successful Everton team attracts many followers. With the right business plan, new owners and the prospect of a shared stadium with our arch enemies, Everton can once again be successful.

We need to harness this call for change, put the plan in place and we can attract 50,000 each week if the Club demonstrates ambition. I remarked to a mate at Wembley "we should be doing this every year". We are Everton and, for too many, we have come to expect second best.

Trevor Williams
76   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:18:57

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WOW ? post 74:

Keith Harris :)

Does he get Orville to sing to blue Bill

"I wish you could lie way up to the sky but you can't, I can, you can't" :)
Steve Edwards
77   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:14:46

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Sur - You really know how to rattle a cage or two, don't yeh!
Robert Daniels
78   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:18:25

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Does anyone have the e.mail address of the New York yankees? We should start bombarding them with e.mails telling them how much we love anything American, and love the Big Apple etc.

Then we could just mention how much we hate the Red Sox and all that ... and by the way, would you like to buy us!

Yankee doodle dandy.
Peter Warren
79   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:19:16

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I'm not a Kenwright fan, in fact I believe he's pretty damn useless, as are the whole board and there's a great stench that comes from the Board. However, I just don't see the Kenwright demanding £180m for number of reasons including

1. He ain't that stupid to think he'll get it; and
2. It's not like Hicks and Gillette where he stands to lose money, he's a pauper (comparatively) and so if he sells for £100 million he still makes a nig profit.

Only reason I can think of is that we are actually in more debt than circa £40million (because he owes money to Green etc).

Can someone enlighten me to how they think Kenwright is asking £180m plus for club? Also, if people were interested, seems strange that they do not come out and say something ? I understand "confidentiality agreement" argument but just don't see these lasting forever etc.
David Thomas
80   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:35:32

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Peter Laing,

I hope you are right, but I could not see us attracting 50,000 fans, week-in, week-out. I really could not see Everton having the following to fill a 50,000 seater stadium against the likes of Fulham, Wigan etc. We may get near 50,000 for the Man U and Liverpool games but that would mean a crowd with their fans scattered all over the stadium or giving away allocations similar to Blackburn, ie, a full stand behind the goal.
Bill Slater
81   Posted 11/10/2010 at 17:49:18

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David; From a commerical point of view, so long as the ground is full, who cares if we have to allocate more tickets away to the away fans? From memories of being a kid the best atmospheres are when there is more away support anyway.

But we really need to get rid of the obstructed views as well. What about flogging these tickets off cheaper, maybe to fans who genuinely can't afford to go the match?
David Price
82   Posted 11/10/2010 at 18:14:18

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MK, Sur Jo and the Indian e-mail link.

Sur Jo is to do with a Bollywood song with sex references that caused a stir in that part of the world. Their version of "Frankie goes to Hollywood" i think and possible investor for Everton testing the waters on Toffeeweb perhaps.

Timothy Laynge
83   Posted 11/10/2010 at 18:20:57

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Can someone enlighten on this, I seem to have read somewhere that Alan Ball wrote he was a RedShite in disguise. Hope I am not wrong on this.

BTW, can anyone confirm if Osman was a RedShite supporter too. Thanks for this.
Mike Gaynes
84   Posted 11/10/2010 at 18:19:27

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Question for Michael K...

I don't know much about Kenwright... never paid much attention to the debate about him because I have no independent source of information over here. The accusations that he's incompetent, unrealistic, cheap, dismissive to the fans, etc. are the same things that wind up US fans about football and baseball owners here, and we've had some that are a whole lot worse.

What's different in the Kenwright debate is the repeated accusation, which you repeated, that he's a liar. So can you fill me in? What has he lied about? Has he actually been caught at something?
Mike McLean
85   Posted 11/10/2010 at 19:28:50

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Richard Dodd: there's valid debate and there's lunacy. You say that Kenwright is honest to the core, so refute the allegations against him (preferably with your tongue out of his arse).
Gavin Ramejkis
86   Posted 11/10/2010 at 20:28:05

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Timothy, Leon Osman went to Upholland High School and was brought up a RS; can't say about Alan Ball.

Mike Gaynes, are you new on the scene at being an Evertonian? BK has years of lies to his credit, it's boring repeating them every time someone doubts it and having to repeat it. A short list of the worst:

Kings Dock ? the money is ring-fenced for it (never existed ? never mind being ring-fenced);

Fortress Sports Fund ? another bullshitism used by BK to oust his former friend and man who helped him buy the club when he looked to be loosing control in order to fund the Kings Dock;

Rooney is a £50M player ? we all know he went and on the drip too for a lot less;

Looking 24/7 ? yeah right!

The club is for sale/looking for an investor which changes at the drop of a hat to suit the occasion;

Destination Kirkby ? world class, virtually free, world class transport (all said on his clock and, if lies he knew about, he did fuck all to dispel them) and the hearings showed in black and white they were all lies, together with not one of the major shareholders willing to spend their own money or dilute their shareholdings to help the club. True Blue my arse.
David Price
87   Posted 11/10/2010 at 20:43:48

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Got a bad feeling with this Peter Lim guy. A serious business operator, genuinely rich, as in £2 billion in assets and with cash to burn off their debts without borrowing. Don't care about the 9 pts deduction now, just hope the Yanks get them and not this man or else they are sorted for the next ten years.

If BK is asking £180M, then all he will do is put us in greater debt if someone is daft enough to "show the cash" after borrowing it first. Surely a proper Blue would take £80m if the right buyer came in, this would see him easily on the right side of a decent profit and leave the new investor a chance to move us forward.

Not holding my breath on this just yet.

Jay Harris
88   Posted 11/10/2010 at 21:30:20

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David,
Kenwright may be holding a lot of shares but Earl and Green are handling the sale.

As I've said before, if Kenwright was acting in the interest of EFC, he could easily sell his shares for what he paid for them plus a bit of interest and have a very attractive proposition for incoming buyers.

Alternatively, if he is serious about more investment, why not have a rights issue?
Tim Kells
89   Posted 11/10/2010 at 22:05:56

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The only way that Billy Liar will be leaving in the near future is if he is forced out a la Doug Ellis a few years ago. Trouble is, I think most supporters are content to leave things as they are and that's why, even after all the lies, he's still got his trainset to play with.
David Thomas
90   Posted 11/10/2010 at 22:46:34

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Jay,

You have mentioned a rights issue a number of times.

Do you really think a rights issue would generate funds that would enable Everton to compete long term with the more affluent teams in this league? In my opinion, the levels of money that would be generated with a rights issue would be minimal in today's football world.
Chris Leyland
91   Posted 11/10/2010 at 23:00:45

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No one knows how much the board want for Everton apart from the board themselves. Anyone bandying about numbers of £180m etc is just speculating.

By the way can anyone name me a successful takeover of a Premier League Club in the past 5 years?

The shite ? enough said.
Man Utd ? mortgaed up to the hilt and massive interest payments. Ageing squad and no real new talent of late.
Portsmouth ? 4 times in a year and bust.
Villa ? O'Neill out and inspector Clueless in. Still not finished above us since takeover.
West Ham ? first takeover by a bankrupt country then by some porn barrons. Going nowhere fast; bottom 6 club with shite squad.
Birmingham ? hardly set the world alight, have they... and no major signings?
Newcastle ? Mick "Rick" Astley is never gonna give them up
Man City ? look good now but what if the owners get bored? Wages in excess of £130m a year.

Blackburn ? suddenly gone quite there, a la Fortress Sports Fund...
Jay Harris
92   Posted 12/10/2010 at 01:48:02

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David, a rights issue could generate between £15 and £25 million which would be enough to put 8,500 seats in an extra tier in the Park End, thereby increasing our matchday receipts and bringing a quarter of the ground up to modern standards.

It would also give us a bit more media coverage for a while as Kenwright doesn't have much else to shout about.

Alex Highton
93   Posted 12/10/2010 at 04:28:13

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Are we such a bad bet? Why doesn't this guy want to buy us instead of Roy's relegation candidates?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11518079

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
94   Posted 12/10/2010 at 04:55:13

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David Thomas,... what is it you're after? Some name that you will say, "Ah yes, I can believe that now"? ? I don't think so...

As I say, the numbers are alleged; they are from different sources; they have been generally confirmed to the extent that they could have been by other posts above...

Honestly, what more do you want? Are they real numbers? Only Bill Kenwright knows that... and you know something: He ain't telling. Especially not passionately interested Evertonians and Shareholders.
Paul Foster
95   Posted 12/10/2010 at 08:37:04

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Michael Kenrick, why do you refer to Bill's ownership as a "crime"? Was that just hyperbole or were you alleging something?

I'm not being facetious and I'm honestly not judging one way or the other. I just thought it might enrich the debate to clarify this point ...
David Thomas
96   Posted 12/10/2010 at 08:37:36

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Michael,

How has it been generally confirmed? Someone posts on a website and a few posters pick it up and run with it and you say it has been generally confirmed. No it has not.

Would you care to share your source like Marc did earlier?

Bill Slater
97   Posted 12/10/2010 at 08:55:25

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Alex (92) after the high court ruling today then H + G may have to sell for £300m. LFC would beat the RBS deadline and the debt would be repaid and the RS may truely become the Liverpool Red Sox.

Mr Lim is only a phone call away from Bill and the board to say "I've got a couple of spare Derby tickets. Fancy a chat? Did you know that we used to play at Anfield many years ago and we've got more history, dignity and respect for the likes of yourself Mr Lim".
Bill Slater
98   Posted 12/10/2010 at 09:03:01

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Or Jay (91) would £25m not be enought to re-do the Bullens Road. If this were to cost more than money raised via a rights issue, well could the current custodians of the Club put their hands in their OWN pockets to make up the difference?

After all, surely any major ground improvements adds to the value of the Club and thus their shares. Or are they looking at other options behind the scenes, which would explain the logic behind the current building work behind the Park End?
Gavin Ramejkis
99   Posted 12/10/2010 at 09:04:39

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Bill, it could also go
"Hello Mr Lim, this is Bill Kenwright"
"Who?"
"Bill Kenwright, theatrical impressario and Chairman of Everton FC"
"Who?"
"Blood Brothers? Mr Jenny Seagrove?"
"Hmmm, oh yeah you're the bloke that fucked up the Kings Dock, that bloke that came up with the Fortress Sports Fund, the one that tried to take Everton to a backwater and failed, that bloke who has been looking 24/7 for years"
"Erm, yes"
"..............................."
"Hello? Hello Mr Kim? Shit he's hung up......"

Bill Slater
100   Posted 12/10/2010 at 09:16:14

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"Hello, Hello, Mr. Kenright sorry about that. There was someone else trying to get through."

"No worries. Technology, hey"

"Yes, I know you've messed up a few deals in the past, but it will be different with me as I've got a personal fortune of £1 billion".

"Great. Do you want me to keep you a couple of tickets...for the Derby"

"Well, erm, maybe. But I really need to know if there's a chance the Club is for sale".

"Oh yes, it really is".

"And how much are you looking to sell the Club for?"

Phone goes dead.

Fucking technology hey. Must have been a LRS fan at the BT exchange listening in.
Richard Dodd
101   Posted 12/10/2010 at 10:03:14

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Just as I thought, too many Toffeewebbers would be happy to sell the Club to the first shiester who comes out of the Apalaches or the bloody desert. Have they learned nothing from the fate of Portsmouth and our dear friends across the park? Just be glad that you`ve got a true Evertonian at the helm!
Dave Lynch
102   Posted 12/10/2010 at 10:21:47

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Richard ? Are you trying to tell us that all interested parties over the past years have been shysters?

Kenwright is holding this club to ransom and until he sells we will always be also-rans. If I was him I would wait and see what happens at the court case today; when a winner emerges I would then ask to talk to the loser and discuss all things Everton and the selling price.

Reason? After what has happened across the park, I think the two possible buyers for the shite have been well and truly vetted. Unlike H & G who I personally think where panic investors because they feared being left behind by the other so-called big 3.

Alex Doyle
103   Posted 12/10/2010 at 10:05:27

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I just don't buy this conspiracy theory that Kenwright doesn't want to sell. It's a chairman's responsibility/job to do the best for the shareholders. If a business like Everton is going to have a public price, the business is natually going to put it high, so £180 million doesn't necessarily mean £180 million.

What seems more likely to me is the effects of a global recession, where capital is much harder to come by and there have been no obvious bids. If there had been any genuine bidders, we would have had them screaming loudly in the press, in an attempt to push the asking price down and putting Everton fan pressure on Kenwright and the other major shareholders to accept. As none of that has happened, it suggests to me that Kenwright is telling the truth!

Looking at it from an investor's point of view, it would require a long term captial investment in a new stadium, never mind the team. Is it any wonder that we don't have bidders knocking on the door? Kirby was a superb deal and would have made us much more attractive. That was the medium/long term business plan that didn't work out, but you can't blame Kenwright for that.
Bill Slater
104   Posted 12/10/2010 at 10:38:48

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Dave Lynch(101) - I agree. The 2 prospects looking to buy across the park will have met the proper fit and proper person's test.

Plus, only one of them can buy LFC. Now given the announcement on www.keioc.net about their conversation with Peel Holdings, would this not be a good time for Everton to speak with the party who is unsuccessful?

Would the idea of spending millions on a new stadium on a World Heritage Site be appealing to either of the both parties?

And these are the only ones we know about. Bernie Mullin is a scouser.

I think the drama unfolding across the park, along with this well-timed Derby has really put the potential sale of Everton in the shop window. There must be very wealthy men with genuine intentions behind the scenes just itching to get their hands on Everton.

Is it not time to erect a statue for Bill Kenwright to thank him for all he has done?
Gavin Ramejkis
105   Posted 12/10/2010 at 11:21:58

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Alex Doyle, its alreay been pointed out that BK is a figurehead without control and that Green appears to be the man controlling the sale, BK didn't even have the £20m he was supposed to have bought the club with in the first place. Second point is that the global recession hasn't been with us for a decade, how does that account for nothing for the last ten years?

Kirkby was an utter shite deal, a poor quality flat pack stadium in a town of less than 45,000 inhabitants with no capability of hosting 50,000 football fans, no off field capabilities such as concert venue etc, look up the hearings and read for yourself how it was shite, the only people to profit would have been Tesco and the shareholders if they got someone stupid enough to buy a stadium which could never be filled that alienated over half of the support (less than half voted for it ? no vote doesn't mean Yes).
David Thomas
106   Posted 12/10/2010 at 12:00:02

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Jay,

We can't fill the ground we have now. Those 8,500 seats will be empty most weeks.

Out of curiosity what calculations are you basing your £15-£25 million on?

If we did raise this money, I would imagine some of it would go to paying off debts and bank loans etc.

In my opinion, a rights issue would simply generate funds that would paper over the cracks and not make us more finacially viable in the long term.
Howard Don
107   Posted 12/10/2010 at 12:23:30

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Michael Kenrick, regards of the rights and wrongs of this debate (plusses and minuses on both sides for me), just re-read the following paragraph from your post (93):-

"As I say, the numbers are alleged; they are from different sources; they have been generally confirmed to the extent that they could have been by other posts above... "

If anyone else had used that paragraph to support heresay statistics in support of BK or DM, you'd have come down on them like a ton of bricks. I've said it before Michael, you'd make a great politician mate, numbers that are "alleged" can also be "generally confirmed" at one and the same time. Now that shows an amazing potential talent as a spin doctor.
Alex Doyle
108   Posted 12/10/2010 at 12:34:31

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Gavin, I would have thought that no-one is that interested in buying Everton until the stadium sitation got sorted out. This is supported by what Keith Harris is saying publicly and makes economic sense.

To look at it another way, why would of these people intent on buying the club meekly go away with no fuss if BK wasn't taking their calls? As you say yourself, there are other power brokers at Everton, do you think all of them don't want to sell, despite what they publicly say?

It would be great if we did have genuine investors to finance an assault on the Premier League and rebuild Goodison into a state of the art, world beating stadium. But we don't.
Noel Lynam
109   Posted 12/10/2010 at 13:00:43

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Howard Don @ 106: you beat me to the punch. The term "generally confirmed" is a new one to me...

Bill Slater - spot on.
Jay Harris
110   Posted 12/10/2010 at 14:18:27

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David,
we have a Derby match coming up this weekend so IMO we could have sold more even at premium prices. Now that wouldn't be the case for every game, as you rightly say, but over a season it would certainly increase our income and profitability.

The figure of £15 to £25 million was put forward by various posters who have experience in stadium building and is based on £200 to £300 per seat...

For those of you questioning Michael, I can confirm that he is right in the ballpark and that Earl and Green are handling the sale and it is very complicated (from the horse's mouth).
Michael Kenrick
111   Posted 12/10/2010 at 14:58:28

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Paul Foster, it was hyperbole in the sense that I am contrasting Everton's miserable lack of investment over the Kenwright years with the incredibly fantastic Return on Investment one William Kenwright would be making if he were to sell the club for anything like £180M. Remember, in such a deal, the money goes to the shareholders (or their financial backers), and not to the club ? on the back of which that sum has been raised.

Then there's the suspicion I harbour that perhaps some of these potential investors may have really bought the club for a smaller amount, and invested some of the balance saved into the club.

A pipe-dream, I know, but it's hard for me to shake the idea that we have been seriously held back by Bill's lack of money. For him to then ride away into the sunset with tens of millions in personal wealth on the back of that much touted 'frugality' would be a 'crime' for someone who forever and only claims he is doing "what is best for the Club".
Bill Slater
112   Posted 12/10/2010 at 15:31:18

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I think the events across the park are turning us all into MBA students on a crash course. I've been trawling through Toffeeweb and I'm learning a great deal.

Jay (109) you seem to know lots about the money side of things regarding Everton. I'm not sure what you mean by "from the horses mouth". I can see why Earl and Green have basically lent Bill the money and it's up to them who it's sold to.

But Christ it's a murky world of greed and sharks out there. Have you tried to read through this?

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=264459.0

Jay Harris
113   Posted 12/10/2010 at 15:42:01

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Thanks for that Bill, very interesting read.

The world of high finance has always been very creative but in the "country of credit" they are even more creative and in certain cases desparate.
Bill Slater
114   Posted 12/10/2010 at 16:06:19

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If the sale of Everton gets messy, I reckon there's a lot for us to learn from the recent PL takeovers, plots, sub-plots, finance deals, underwriters, ghosts backers, SPAC's, IPO's, Articles of Association, family board members, burdening debt on the Club, interest rates, Company Law v Contract Law, economic prospects of the area, players contracts & wage salaries, fan communications, commercial sponsorships, living within your means, stadium re-developments v new location, media relations, shitty stadium catering.....and so on.

Fuckin' el. I've got a headache. I bet Caesar never had to put up with all this shit. He'd just tell everyone pissing him off to go and play with the Lions in that great big pit in the ground.

I just think Bill is standing on top of the Grand Canyon with the bungie jump stuff safely tied to his back, but he can't jump. He's been looking down into the Abyss for years and wants to just get it over and done with. But he is waiting for the two people either side of him to give him the nod. In the meantime, his hair has gone white and he hasn't been able to enjoy watching Blood Brothers at the theatre for years.

I'm not defending him. I just think that maybe he's already sold out and is now the puppet of the Bungie Jump men and can't tell anyone. Even if Everton is sold for £180m, I wonder how much of that will actually end up in Bill's pocket? I have a distinct impression it will be heading to Oxford Street & Planet Hollywood than the West End.
Dennis Stevens
115   Posted 12/10/2010 at 16:58:47

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Absotively Bill, I suspect that Kenwright may have made the mistake of jumping into the fire to avoid the frying pan back in the demise of KD & the subsequent ousting of Gregg. I wonder whether Kenwright would play that one differently if he could go back & do it again.
Bill Slater
116   Posted 12/10/2010 at 17:08:54

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Yes Dennis, I really do think he would. Can't wait for the book to come out.

I've been trawling around the web today. Anyone seen the video on here about how they do it in Germany?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9080946.stm


The 50+1 rule.
Something to think about. BBC reporter says "Does democracy come with a price on the football pitch"?

I would argue that with no supporters, it might just as well be a Sunday League kick about in the park.
Steven Jones
117   Posted 12/10/2010 at 17:06:43

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All those wishing for change are playing high stakes with our football club ... oh no they are not because they do not have control - thank god!!!

In a clear vote there would be many many more voting to keep Bill than not ? particularly seeing the mess next door and in Manchester... let alone the Leeds etc.

Some people's dreams appear to fuel nonsensical demands on our football club... Wake up and smell the coffee!

I for one really appreciate having Bill as our chairman and acknowledge both the effort and the stability he brings and has brought to the club over the last 10 years.

I even enjoy the boys pen waxing lyrical stuff.

Thank you, Bill!
Gavin Ramejkis
118   Posted 12/10/2010 at 16:25:20

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Alex, BK isn't fielding the calls... and, from the rumours relating to the Green and Earl handling the whole deal, it sounds very complex and long winded; the Green rumours certainly back up the insistence on a retail tie-in despite the multitude of negatives associated with the Kirkby debacle.

I've never understood this whole sour grapes telling tales thing of scorned buyers. If a businessman were to enquire about Everton and get quoted a price which they don't want to pursue, then why would they then go public with any details?

The share rights issue alluded to earlier in the thread could have been done at the same time Spurs raised in the region of £20m plus by doing the same. Look at Newcastle's St James' Park and how it has been developed in order to provide greater gate receipts and at the same time Everton pissed away money on has-beens such as Ginola.

The medium- and long-term strategies have simply never been there at Everton; investment and acumen such as that would be delivering today. Instead, we have no stadium plans and a number of failed attempts which have wasted millions ? all on the clock of BK.

Phil Martin
119   Posted 12/10/2010 at 17:21:27

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Well done, Bill, I say.

Not only are we in the greatest level of debt in the history of our club. We are also just as far from a solution (after two bungled attempts) to the stadium issue as we've ever been.

Especially thanking Bill for our negative net spend over the last 3 seasons. There's nothing like backing your manager.

Did I mention we are also now assetless? Nice work, Bill!

At least us Everton fans are given the respect we deserve, eh? Whoever thought shareholders and serious Evertonians were worthy of a platform to express their concerns or questions about their club, should be shot. At least Bill did the right thing by just banning those inconvenient AGM thingies.

And finally, a massive slap on the back to Bill for fulfilling all those promises of great signings. I truly thought "Wow" while I watched his space.

Thank fuck we aren't owned by a foreign cowboy.
Gavin Ramejkis
120   Posted 12/10/2010 at 17:41:01

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Steven, I believe you need to smell the espresso ? never mind the coffee. BK is way out of his depth as the chairman of a premier league football club. I'd love to see a vote for and against BK and the outcome.

How is asking the club to be ran as a business and not an old boys club waxing lyrical of days gone by as the club is left behind year on year with no buying power? The same buffoon who had already left the ground the day Rooney scored that goal past Seaman yet doesn't wax lyrical about that does he?

Football today is a multi-million pound business and needs businessmen and women who can expand that business with ideas and strategies for making money beyond Saturday afternoons. BK has had years of trying and failed abysmally, just how long do you think the selling to buy policy can go on?
David Thomas
121   Posted 12/10/2010 at 18:57:36

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Jay,

We may be able to sell a few more tickets for the derby (IMO not anywhere near 8,500), however that is one game out of 19 in the season so i don't really think it is going to make a huge difference.

Also, I was actually enquiring what you were basing your figures on with regards the rights issue and not the cost of the construction works to the Park End?


"For those of you questioning Michael, I can confirm that he is right in the ballpark and that Earl and Green are handling the sale and it is very complicated (from the horse's mouth)." Please could you expand on the above ? I am more than intrigued?

Gavin, "I've never understood this whole sour grapes telling tales thing of scorned buyers. If a businessman were to enquire about Everton and get quoted a price which they don't want to pursue then why would they then go public with any details?" They would go public in order to put pressure on the current owners. For instance, look at Mr Lim at Liverpool. His bid is not the board's chosen option and instead of walking away, he has made sure the general public are aware of his bid.
Brian Waring
122   Posted 12/10/2010 at 20:32:14

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Hi Steven, just wondering if you could give us the link to "In a clear vote, there would be many many more voting to keep Bill than not." Might be worth a look.
Steven Jones
123   Posted 12/10/2010 at 20:29:07

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Gavin, Having read many of your posts, it is evident you are out of your depth just writtng in a forum. Hyperbole and misplaced brain cells wafting on about business and millions ... boy you are an easy target.

"Failing abysmally" - having built a squad of such a high quality and value ? I do not recognise the failure you talk about ? are you talking about EFC or Chester? Or several clubs bankrupt in all but name: LFC, MUFC, LUFC, SFC, CCFC, etc etc...
Robert Daniels
124   Posted 12/10/2010 at 20:55:43

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Steven Jones,

How you can defend the joke that is Bill Talkshite is beyond me!!!!! This cretin has been seeking a billionaire for ten years! Also a new stadium...

Well, for your information, ten years ago we had one and a new stadium to go with it.

Earl Granchester, the heir to the Moores family fortune, was willing to buy the club along with a certain Mr Gregg, who wanted the Kings Dock stadium, which the council and every fucking agency had bent over backwards to fund it for us!

Just take a minute to read that again, Steven, in case it didn't sink in! He let it all go. He's a fuckin lying bastard.

Everything he seeks, he once had. But he won't relinquish power. Simple isn't it?

Get in the real world mate, don't believe everything someone tells you.

BTW, watch this space.
Robert Daniels
125   Posted 12/10/2010 at 21:17:08

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BTW, that should be Lord Grantchester... where did I get Earl from?

Oh that's it, that bloke that owns Planet Hollywood... You know, another m

Maybe its because he supports Spurs, like his mate Greedy Greeny.

But they're our friends according to that Blue Bill... he who waxes lyrical about the Boys Pen...
John Daley
126   Posted 12/10/2010 at 21:20:59

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"In a clear vote there would be many more voting to keep Bill than not". Yeah, if said vote was carried out amongst members of the Kenwright household maybe. Even those Evertonians who choose to ignore his blatant untruths and childishly insist he has the club's best interests at heart (like that's the only criteria needed to be a decent chairman) must recognise that the guy is a bungling incompetent. The club will simply be stuck in financial limbo for as long as Bill and his cronies remain at the helm.
Colin Fitzpatrick
127   Posted 12/10/2010 at 22:01:18

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Mike Gaynes [#83]

No offence Mike but are you on a wind-up like several others on here or are you being genuine when you state ?What has he lied about? Has he actually been caught at something??

Sur Jo is clearly a wind-up, poor old Doddy, I?d put a pound in his tin if I ever met the poor guy, but before I waste a few hours cataloguing Bill Kenwright?s atrocious history as board member and chairman for you, can you just confirm you really don?t know why Kenwright attracts such a negative response from the vast majority of fans and shareholders alike???

Cheers.
Rob Magee
128   Posted 12/10/2010 at 22:47:40

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Reading all these posts makes my head spin, I am and have been a passionate Evertonian for 25 years yet cannot summon the hatred nor the unstinting faith shown on this site.

Maybe I could be accused of sitting on the fence but I neither love nor loathe the man. He has done good and bad at the club, I am more than happy that we are no longer haunted by relegation as used to be the norm. Yet also, I can see that under his leadership we have hit a glass ceiling; we do need new a owner.

I do however find it extremely hard to believe he is as greedy and as self interested as a lot of posters would have us believe. He is not a great chairman and has overseen some almighty cock-ups but surely his love of the club cannot be questioned.

However many facts and truths you can all throw at us, none of us know what goes on behind closed doors. Everyone has an idea of what should happen or has already happened regarding takeover issues but none of us really know, and not one poster has yet has convinced me that we are or have been definitely missing opportunities. I get just as frustrated as everyone when other clubs get oppurtunities that could have come our way, but until you can prove to me that BK, PG, or RE have told these people to take their money and fuck off then I will not be slaughtering our chairman on this or any other site.

On a more positive note, I am going to my first derby on Sunday and cannot wait, got a long trip up from Cornwall and will be buzzing all the way. COYB

Jay Harris
129   Posted 12/10/2010 at 23:11:00

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David, if you can't see the logic behind increasing the capacity (cost effectively) by 8500 then it is pointless developing the debate.

A rights issue is to the value of however many shares you put out there and the value you list the share at and will be underwritten for any that are not taken up, so in essence it can be for whatever you consider may be taken up.

IMO, £15 to £35 million is a reasonable figure to achieve.

The rest of my post speaks for itself and I cannot expand on it.
Jay Harris
130   Posted 12/10/2010 at 23:31:39

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David, re your point to Gavin. I am aware of two parties who have expressed an interest in EFC and not gone public.

As I have said before, not all successful business people have an ego problem and therefore a desire for public knowledge.

The ones that usually go public are the ones with no substance behind their interest.
Bill Slater
131   Posted 13/10/2010 at 01:07:06

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Jay, is the alternative to a rights issue that the board just put up the cash to add an extra tier on the Park End? Would that make fans happier that they had started throwing their own money at a much needed stadium that's looking tired?
Robert Lam
132   Posted 13/10/2010 at 01:35:53

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"The ones that usually go public are the ones with no substance behind their interest." Mr Lim definitely possess the ability to see the deal through. But he is a well-known MU fan. He is buying RS based on his business instinct, not for the love of the club. But frankly I don't see any more potential from RS.
Jay Harris
133   Posted 13/10/2010 at 04:04:03

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Bill, my take on it is that Green and Earl were only in it for a quick return on the retail dream ticket that was DK and fell apart and would love to get out now there is no immediate sign of that happening, which is why all of a sudden Kenwright is pushing "the club needs a billionaire" ticket.

Only God and the three of them know what the deal is but I can't see any of them putting up any money.

The logical thing in the absence of a buyer is to have a rights issue but they don't seem to fancy that either; while they're holding out for the jackpot, the club is stagnating.
Jay Harris
134   Posted 13/10/2010 at 04:13:24

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Robert, it wasnt Lim who went public on his interest ? it was LFC.
Mike Gaynes
135   Posted 13/10/2010 at 08:12:12

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Colin Fitzpatrick, I'm in the US... Everton fan since 1985, but all we see are the games and highlights, not the UK newspapers. So I know all about the players, but very little about the ownership/political history of the club... never heard of whatever King's Dock is, for example. So I read here for a couple of years about Kenwright's lies and ask the editor a pretty obvious question to find out what it's about... and get ignored. Or sneered at. So excuse the hell out of me.
Tony I'Anson
136   Posted 13/10/2010 at 08:43:54

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Some read that chaps.

Bill (63) - Yes I did after putting up the article about a Fan Share a while ago on TW. I think we can safely assume that decision makers at Everton do read Toffeeweb.

Does TW not provide the platform and forum for us to speak, and for Everton to listen and respond. I don't see any reason to re-invent the wheel. Plus, TW has more credibility as it is in no way controlled by EFC.

Rob (127) - maybe this site does come across as negative sometimes, especially on emotive subjects. But can you not see that there are too many well-informed Evertonians sometimes putting their neck on the line by informing us of certain facts about what's going on. I will say it again - TW is probably one of THE most important pieces of digital history for the Everton Collection one day. Do you want to be remembered as a Pawn or a Chess Player in future Everton history lessons?
Mike Gaynes
137   Posted 13/10/2010 at 08:44:26

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When it comes to ignoring "unworthy" questions, it seems Kenwright and Kenrick have more in common than just the similarity in their names.
Gavin Ramejkis
138   Posted 13/10/2010 at 09:09:36

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Steven your retorts are hilarious, care to put your business credentials up? I've successfully ran my own business for years. I've consulted for all the high street banks onshore and offshore with the exception of HSBC, I've consulted for the Ministry of Defence for over three years, I've just consulted for the DVLA for nine months and have an offer to consult for a large company in the North West or an offer to consultant back with the largest outsourcer in the world - do you?

Internet wise arse or waster, care to enlighten us all?
David Thomas
139   Posted 13/10/2010 at 09:13:23

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Jay,

What is the point of coming on to a site to tease you have some inside knowledge about the club and then when you are asked to give more detail, we never get anything more.

Who are these two bidders you mention? How do you know MK is in the right ball park? etc etc.

I fully expect a response saying i can't go into anymore detail but I have heard it from the "horses mouth".
Marc Williams
140   Posted 13/10/2010 at 09:32:24

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Mike Gaynes 134#, I don't think you are being ignored or sneered at, it's just that most on the site are so familiar with these issues that they are reticent about repeating them again.

You said you'd not heard about 'Kings Dock'. Basically Liverpool waterfront, has been transformed in the last decade or so with hundreds of millions of £'s of investment. Everton had the chance to build their new stadium there & for once the city council's attitude towards us appeared supportive/helpful. Unfortunately, Kenwright 'fell out' with his backer at the time, then couldn't raise the fund's required by the deadline. This was despite assuring everyone that the funding was 'ring-fenced'. If you google earth search 'Echo Arena' you'll see where we missed out on re-locating to.... heartbreaking really.

If you want to know more about 'Bungling Bill' & the murky world of his tenure, check out the info' 'Keep Everton in our City' have put on the web.

Hope this helps.
Marc Williams
141   Posted 13/10/2010 at 10:04:12

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Gavin 137# Steady on Gavin, given the current Economic crisis, brought on by the actions of the banks. I'm not sure your assertion to having avised them will enhance your business credentials or win you many friends !

I'd keep quiet on that one, if I were you.
Colin Fitzpatrick
142   Posted 13/10/2010 at 10:11:03

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Okay Mike [#134] I'll submit an article later that lists the problems Evertonians have with Bill Kenwright, not the waffle and spin you'll read or watch in the media.

I don't think the editor is ignoring you; he knows posters will post to the thread or send in an article on this, it's a case of why have a dog and bark yourself!
Peter Laing
143   Posted 13/10/2010 at 10:42:43

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For me, one of the most telling issues in the whole Kenwright tenure is the non-support offered by Lord Granchester. Granchester has been involved in the Everton Foundation and Dr David France's work so obviously has more than a passing / familial interest in Everton, the fact that such a wealthy Evertonian is not on the board speaks volumes of his relationship with Bill Kenwright, who would be considered a mere pauper in comparisson.
Bill Slater
144   Posted 13/10/2010 at 11:09:47

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Well, the Liverpool Red Sox looks like it's now a goer after the court ruling. A blessing in disguise if you ask me, given that the people with real wealth in the bank were circling.

And I agree with Peter Laing ? Lord Granchester, I would hope to be our Knight in shining armour should we end up in the same predicament as the Red Sox II across the park.

In the meantime, he won't deal with the current board, so I would just love Mr Lim to be invited to Goodison on Sunday just to add extra spice to the event. (Like it needs it!)
Marc Williams
145   Posted 13/10/2010 at 11:41:39

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Bill (#143) ? I think you've got a typo problem with your keyboard, shouldn't that read .... Liverpool Red Cox /Cocks!
Bill Slater
146   Posted 13/10/2010 at 12:16:11

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Patrick Barclay makes a good point and backs up Jay Harris's point about buying a share in the club to have a say, instead of buying a replica shirt.

I would be too old and embarassed to wear a replica shirt (of any kind), but would gladly put an Everton scarf around my neck on match days.

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,16461_6437190,00.html
Jay Harris
147   Posted 13/10/2010 at 13:27:28

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David (Doubting) Thomas, what I stated was not a tease it is fact and you are the only person to question it.

I wish I could say more but I cannot and therefore you have to accept it or reject it. I am not bothered either way.

I see the purpose of this site as to inform, express opinion and debate it. What I stated was not opinion or intended for debate.

Are you Ian Ross incognito?
David Thomas
148   Posted 13/10/2010 at 14:19:07

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"I wish I could say more but I cannot and therefore you have to accept it or reject it"

Ha ha ha ha, how awfully convenient. I would have put money on that being your response.
Charles King
149   Posted 13/10/2010 at 14:19:15

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2 things about the neighbours sale, if the price is right the buyers will come secondly, greedy owners need their hands forcing, in this case the RBS.

Hicks and Gillette's 800mil folly is just a bigger version of BK and cronies greed.

I would almost welcome the crisis that forces Bill an co out.
I'm fearful their skill lies in just doing enough to continually avoid such events.
The good ship mediocrity keeps rolling on.
Bill Slater
150   Posted 13/10/2010 at 14:29:29

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Dave Thomas - everton left winger, no shin pads, rolled down socks in late 1970's. Did you play for the blues?
David Thomas
151   Posted 13/10/2010 at 14:51:56

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Bill,

I wish I had. I'm afraid I'm not the DT who created so many of Bob Latchford's goals.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
152   Posted 13/10/2010 at 15:24:35

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Mike Gaynes, sorry if I appear to have been ignoring you. To be honest, I found the question somewhat boring... [geddit?].

I'm not sure I buy your UK newspapers excuse for being poorly informed about the Chairmen of Everton FC. Heaven knows we have enough complaints on here when anyone posts a thread about him ? from those who don't want to discuss for the umpteenth time the numerous occasions where his words have turned out to be somewhat economical with the truth. You've probably been reading ToffeeWeb for at least a couple years, and been a member since June 2009... are you seriously claiming you are unaware of these incidents?

Do these phrases mean anything to you:
"Kings Dock money ring-fenced"; "Fortress Sports Fund" "The check will be in the bank in the morning" "Rooney.. . £50M"... "Watch this space..." ???

I know parts of the USA can be a bit isolated and behind the times but you've got a computer and access to the Internet, so really... there's no excuse for not knowing at least some of these. Or is that you really don't want to know?

Peter Laing
153   Posted 13/10/2010 at 16:56:59

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The fact remains that whilst Kenwright is in charge and clings onto the trainset (think of a spoilt child refusing to share his toys) nobody, and I mean nobody, will touch the Club with a proverbial shitty stick. All of the hot air that keeps coming out of the PR machine at Goodison is 'investment' or 'investors', why is Kenwright so economical with the truth and put up the for sale sign outside Goodison Road. Whilst Kenwright and his ghost-backers remain in charge, we can expect to continue to stagnate.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
154   Posted 13/10/2010 at 17:58:27

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David Thomas, now you have what you were looking for (#147), are we done?

Jay is exactly right in his characterization of this as a football fans forum ? not a court of law, fraud squad case, or home of investigative journalism. People share what they know with a presumption that it is genuine but without any guarantees. You are at liberty ? as we all are ? to accept what you read or to reject it.

To take the stance you did leads nowhere. If you don't believe something, fine ? just say so (if you have to...) and be done with it. Some people's preconceptions are stronger than the words they read. (Before you are tempted to turn that around on me, I am acutely aware of it, but being fully open-minded is a challenge none of us likes to admit losing.)

The astounding thing to me about this website is that all of us who read it are reading exactly the same words... and yet, as a group, we still contribute an incredible range of diverse opinion on almost every subject discussed. I guess that's just one of the marvels of human nature!
Bill Slater
155   Posted 13/10/2010 at 18:12:27

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Colin (141) on this day when across the park have just wiped out a £280m debt, a summary timeline of events for the uninitiated would be a timely article just to re-inforce why there have been over 152 comments in relation to this article.

The facts have to be spelt out to fans with their head in the sands, and somehow the Echo have to be encouraged to print it (to get to the non-Internet fan base). Maybe they will as a bit of balance, given the media frenzie going on across the park. Or maybe get a proper newspaper to print something about our point of view?

Thanks Colin.
David Thomas
156   Posted 13/10/2010 at 21:19:39

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Michael,

"David Thomas, now you have what you were looking for (#147), are we done?" I have not got what I was looking for that is the whole point. Jay Harris has alluded to having inside knowledge on the finances of the club, ie, "from the horses mouth" and "I am aware of two parties who have expressed an interest in EFC and not gone public." I consider it a reasonable enough request for me to ask him to substantiate these statements. However, as Jay either cannot, does not want to, or is not in a position to say anymore, I am done, as you put it.
Michael Kenrick
157   Posted 13/10/2010 at 22:08:25

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Good.
Robert Daniels
158   Posted 13/10/2010 at 22:38:24

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D, Thomas, Can you not see what that lying twat has done to us? He had a billionaire, he had a world class stadium 10 fuckin years ago. He, not anyone else,

Threw it all away, just so he could keep control! Can't you see the evidence in front of you? Get real, smell the coffee... It's official: he lied.

It's in the court references. He said we wouldn't get a safety certificate now for Goodison... Hello, Dave, Hello!

You come on here, doubting other Evertonians, who care passionately about our club... Get REAL. The answer is staring you in the face!

Appologise to Jay Harris, and the rest who you are offending!
David Lee
159   Posted 13/10/2010 at 22:42:06

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Jay, so we spend £15-25M on 8,500 seats that are used 2-3 times per season? Sorry, but don't see the logic in that. Surely it could be used better... Paying off some debt, maybe?
Bill Slater
160   Posted 14/10/2010 at 08:21:26

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David

For big games against ManU, Red Sox, City, Arsenal we would easily sell these seats to home fans.

For locally based teams (Wigan, Blackburn, Blackpool) they would bring a crowd, so give them more space (eg more of the Bullens, or the new upper tier). After all the average PL attendee is not from Serbia!

8,500 extra quality seats x £40 = £340,000 additional gate receipt per game. Plus extra spendies on food and drink @£5 a head, net proift is 8500 x £5 x 19 = £800k approx.

Over the league season, this brings in an extra gross revenue of around £7 million a year, not including Cups or Euro games. Now that figure rings a bell as it's 1 more than 6!

Then for the abstructed view seats that never sell, flog these off at half price for the non-big games. I bet they would sell then. How many of these are there? Assume 2000 per game do not sell @ £20 LOST revenue.

2000 x £20 = £40k x 19 matches = £760,000 plus spendies on food and drink (@£5 a head) is another £1million revenue missed.

So there you go, for a relatively modest investment of £25 million, the Club could bring in an extra £8 million a season, which is an extra 10% of current turnover.

With a rights issue, this £25 million would be interest free as it would be new money generated not loaned so we would not be burdening the club with debt.
David Thomas
161   Posted 14/10/2010 at 09:46:35

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Bill,

I am not sure if you are a match going Evertonian? I presume from your comment above that you are not.

"For locally based teams (Wigan, Blackburn, Blackpool) they would bring a crowd, so give them more space (eg more of the Bullens, or the new upper tier). After all the average PL attendee is not from Serbia!"

Wigan and Blackburn etc struggle to sell half the allocation they get given by Everton at this moment in time (I think I am correct in saying last season Wigan brought about 250 fans with them to Goodison), so what would be the point of allocating them more space when they can hardly fill 50% of their current allocations?

Also, we don't always sell out the Arsenal, City and United games each season with the ground we have now, so where are these extra thousands of fans coming from?

Since we have been back in European competition over the last 5 years or so, how many times have we filled the ground we have now? I would say the Champions Lleague qualifier and maybe Fiorentina.

Your additional gate receipt figures would be relevant if we had people being locked out for most games, but the truth is we have not.
Phil Martin
162   Posted 14/10/2010 at 13:05:31

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Before United's 20 years of glory, did they ever envisage weekly crowds of 75,000? Did they fuck. Success brings back older fans who maybe fell out of love with football. It also attracts new younger fans. To say we'll never be able to fill 55,000 shows a distinct lack of ambition.

Currently we have a good squad playing in a (facility-wise) poor stadium, with zero investment in new players. Let's just say we renovated GP, actually spent money on players, and quite possible won a trophy. There would be a big increase in demand.

Accepted, we wont hit attendances of 60,000+ again until we start being regularly successful. But setting our sights on a stadium smaller then Villa Park, City, also possibly Wolves and Birmingham is a disgrace.

Gavin Ramejkis
163   Posted 14/10/2010 at 16:34:26

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I personally think we would sell many more tickets than we currently do with another tier on the Park End as many of the unsold right now are obstructed views. Offering these seats to folk stuck near pillars or in the Lower Bullens would see a good few jumping seats and those unsold obstructed views sold as perfectly good seats in the second tier Park End.

Success on the pitch puts bums on seats but the investment needs to be there ready to fulfill the requirement and not playing catch-up.
Bill Slater
164   Posted 14/10/2010 at 20:24:25

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Dave, you're right. We should just leave things as they are then.
Chad Schofield
165   Posted 14/10/2010 at 20:57:17

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Hear, hear Bill (Slater). Perhaps David does not know Latin.
David Thomas
166   Posted 14/10/2010 at 22:03:42

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Bill / Chad,

It's not a case of leaving things as they are.

If we were to generate funds, say £15 to £35 million as Jay has alluded to from a rights issue, I don't see the benefit of using those funds to build 8,500 extra seats on top of the 40,000 seats we have at present and very rarely sell out. What benefit would 8,500 empty seats have to Everton? We would have used a large chunk of the limited funds we have and without bums on seats we would be having no benefit from our outlay.

As someone alluded to, a winning side generates more fans. We are not a winning side at the moment. Surely it would make more sense to use this potential money to improve the playing staff etc in order to give us a greater chance of being a winning side and if this winning side was to materialise then would be the time to consider adding to the capacity when there is a greater chance of us having more fans willing to pass through the turnstiles each home game.

If we were to spend the money on extra seats and not the team we would have a 48+ thousand seater stadium with the same team that we have at present. That same team that less than 40,000 people currently want to go and watch, week-in, week-out.
Chris Green
167   Posted 15/10/2010 at 13:26:56

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Just a thought.. why doesn't someone chat to Peter Lim, and ask him to invest in us to show that Liverpool were wrong to turn him down? We are cheaper to buy, have similar potential and ALOT less debt..... just a thought!
Chad Schofield
168   Posted 16/10/2010 at 10:55:31

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David, it's less about that precise example and more your attitude throughout this thread. I could try to argue that the minute that work was finished we would have fans flocking in demonstrating that it's obstructed views stopping us achieve attract our most important revenue stream, therefore highlighting the necessity to improve the stadium (does this need proving?!)... But it would be speculation. You choose to speculate that we would not fill the stadium, yet you berate those who cannot provide precise evidence in their claims.

Read between the lines of what Elston wrote in his blog and you could view it a number of ways. is he showing some decent, suggesting that we need to be bought out as an investor would not have full control - they would just have diluted the share holding (at the DK inquiry board said they did not want this)? Is he pushing against any kind of collaboratortive take over, either because of the situation with Bill being the figurehead, or because they have had more and more enquiries from such consortiums?

We could speculate, but then how would we know David? Getting rid of Bill might not explode us into a position where we are challenging for the title, however sitting and stagnating is highly unlikely to ensure this either. Maybe the rules will get changed, maybe Ambramovic and The Sheik will get bored, perhaps the Earth will get hit by a meteor and football will be irrelevant... Who knows, David, who knows?

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