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Kenwright & EFC ? Reponse to Comments

By Colin Fitzpatrick :  16/10/2010 :  Comments (91) :

Editor's Note:  This piece below from Colin is a follow-up provided in response to the handful of critical comments made to his seminal article ? I'm more concerned about Everton....  That stunningly detailed submission was prompted by a recent request from a relatively new ToffeeWeb reader (Mike Gaynes) who was unfamiliar with the history relating to Bill Kenwright's Chairmanship of the Board of Directors at Everton Football Club.  Specifically, Mike was concerned about a much-repeated accusation about Kenwright ? that he's a liar: "What has he lied about? Has he actually been caught at something?" ? Those were Mike's original questions.

Colin,
Really enjoyed your dissertation but it is better when you back up your claims by email links to press stories for example.

I know who you are and what you are doing for this club.

Brilliant timing for your article, and whilst I don't agree with all you say, I admire your intent.

The main problem is no serious buyers show public intent to buy Everton.

There is no media interest in Everton, but there is grandstanding in LFC.

Like you, my concern is Everton.

Eamonn Byrne

Given the tremendous response to Colin's iconic piece of penmanship about the recent history Everton Football Club ? 135 comments to date ? I decided to put this response up on ToffeeWeb as a separate article.  As you can see, it includes numerous hyperlinks to source material or supporting information available on the Web.  These are provided in response to a comment from Eamonn Byrne;  most of the links will open as new browser windows or new tabs (Depending on which browser you are using).

References to comments on the original article should appear in pop-ups.

There is also some pertinent embedded video which will play inside this page. ...


It's good to see that the desire for change... that the desire, the will, to actually take steps to initiate change for the good of OUR football club still remains ? despite the best efforts of the club's hierarchy and a few quite deluded individuals whose motivation and capacity to keep on-message, to continually regurgitate the same old long-disproven club propaganda ? is nothing less than remarkable.

If I've given the impression that I've been harsh or unfair on David Moyes, I'd just like to take the opportunity to remove any unintended ambiguity: I think, under the circumstances, he's done a remarkable job and I hope he goes on to achieve the success ? with Everton ? that he richly deserves... starting on Sunday!

An excellent piece of flawed research that Goebels himself would be proud of.
The pre-Kenwright financial situation is barely mentioned yet it was atrocious mismanagement during the 60s, 70s and 80s that dragged the club to its knees. From that parlous position, Kenwright has been fighting an uphill battle for survival.
Since Kenwright appointed Moyes, any honest assessment would point out that Everton with its aging decrepit infrastructure has been fighting above its weight. Almost as if Bill had nothing to do with it, Colin credits Walter Smith for Moyes's arrival. That is just a cheap shot at downgrading the importance of Bill's role.

I acknowledge the fact that during Kenwright's tenure, many things have gone wrong, but it is plainly misleading to ignore the dire environment and dangerous predicament we were in before he assumed control ? it is a wonder we are still a formidable force in the world's toughest league.

Dick Fearon

The irony of Dick Fearon [#44] mentioning Goebbels won't be lost on many; he (JG) stated, "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Dick then repeats the often repeated attempt to associate his hero with Moyes's appointment; best leave out the reality of BK favouring Gary Megson then, or the fact that BK was on the Board of Directors when he talks about ?dire environments? and ?dangerous predicaments?...

I realise that this is going to rile a lot of you who seem to think that Bill is some sort of evil genius one minute and then some blundering baffoon the next, but rather than just criticising another anti-Kenwright article, I thought I would be constructive as there are a large number of statements in the above article I take issue with.

Firstly ? after the FA Cup Final you state: "Our stock had never been higher in recent years and, if we were ever going to be sold, if we were ever going to take the next step forward, that was the time. Predictably, as we have become accustomed at Everton, the moment came and went." ? Have you any evidence that there was any opportunity to sell at this time? Just cos the club is on the up for a brief period doesn't suddenly mean lots of people are queuing up to buy it!

You also describe Davey's tenure as to "include a litany of heavy and embarrassing defeats in the Premier League, domestic and European cup competitions" ? now ok there have been a few, but name me one manager that hasn't had any. In reality, we have had very few for a club of our relative standing over the last 7 or 8 years.

You also describe "his record on bringing players in can be best described as mixed" ? I think this is distinctly under estimating the success given the limited budgets available ? only really Krøldrup that has been a waste (who was sold for an almost identical fee 6 months later); Van der Meyde was free and worth the risk at the time... one of those chances that clubs with limited finances have to take occasionally.

Now onto other subjects: - you claim that: "Bill Kenwright was the person responsible for overseeing the advance spending of the never-to-materialise NTL media money which was wasted on abysmal signings such as Alex Nyarko ? ridiculously recruited on a 5-year contract but with only a 4-year work permit ? after the sale of then club captain Don Hutchison" - well sorry to disappoint you on this by Nyarko was signed in Walter Smith's first season when Johnson was still in charge ? along with Dacourt, Materazzi and Collins. Hutchison was then sold at the end of that season when he failed to agree a new contract.

You also claim Rooney was sold for a 'knock-down price' - which is odd given the fact that nobody ever offered any more money and at the time it was a British trasfer record for someone under 20 - hardly knock-down!

You then include some strange paragraph about Moyes going to Blackburn and Everton hiring Martin O'Neil ? which is news to everyone I know as 'Ive never heard of it before today!

So to more up-to-date issues - you descirbe the attempted sale of Bellfield as having "an over-ambitious planning application meant that council planning permission was refused and a futile appeal was dismissed by the government".

Well if thats the case, how come the plannning officers of LCC where happy with it ? it was the council members that overturned the advice given by the LCC planners to refuse the permission!

You also state that: "The chairman now tells us that Everton are now in discussions with yet another three unidentified parties, but another self-publicist, Keith Harris, the person who one minute is then isn't employed by Everton to seek a buyer, claims nobody is interested in Everton at the moment." Well, if you read the comments made by BK and Keith harris they are fairly consistent with each other - both allude to interested parties who never produce funds - so is this just part of the great elaborate hoax you like to claim!

To finish you state that "In my opinion, Bill Kenwright has repeatedly misled the fans and shareholders alike" - well, I will agree that there are some inconsistencies - but then neither you nor myself ar ein possession of the full facts to know what is actually true and what isn't and why such statements are made - this isnt a defence just a warning not to take all statements at face value unless you are fully aware of the context they are written in.
Oh and there is a certian degree of hypocricy in someone from KEIOC critiicising others for misleading fans - what ever happened to the wonderful 'Loop' eh - seems to have disappeared now Kirkby is off the agenda - and as for the videos of football hooligans shown to Kirkby residents or writing to politicians concerned about retail issues in an attempt to have Kirkby called off - when that had nothing to do with your objections at all.

There are a number of people around who like to spread rumours and half truths as if they are fact - if Bill is one of them well hes in good company.

I am not overly happy that my football club doesnt have the finances to compete, but I am also not going to jump up and down on people just cos they are doing a job differently from me - I believe that the board DO have Evertons best interests at heart - the fact that they go about it differently to you or I would does not make them wrong, greedy, only in it for the money or any other things you would like to call them.

As for criticising supporters for having ago at the lot across the park - well why not - its funny. We know they will end up coming out smelling of roses, they always do - but let us enjoy it while we can

Chris Briddon

Staying with the Goebbels theme, Chris Briddon [#96] enters the fray with almost the perfect example of JG?s philosophy; a complete reiteration of the club's lies and misinformation and misunderstanding ? all designed to support the actions of a Board that should have been shown the door years ago. Just like the club?s management, Chris shows a disturbing level of ignorance on how planning applications are handled, laughingly points out that the stories from Kenwright and Harris are consistent (more a little later), then moves on to attack KEIOC over the Loop. (Bestway, after spending £30k and having to deal with the gross unprofessionalism of people who shouldn?t be at Goodison, in any capacity whatsoever, were eventually disgusted by the treatment they received and gave up their pursuit of attempting to speak with Everton) and repeats the tired old story of KEIOC showing a video of alleged Evertonian hooliganism to people from Kirkby.

Well, Chris, if you can actually find one person who actually witnessed this video, I?ll sit in the Street End for the rest of the season in a Liverpool shirt ? or you can lend me your ?I luv Bill? shirt and I?ll wear that!

Peter ? no I cant answer why Everton cannot find a backer ? but the point is neither can anyone else. I could go on about lack of global appeal, lack of recent success (post PL), 2nd club in city etc, you could go on about the owner and if the club is for sale or not ? but the honest truth is neither of us have a clue its all conjecture and rumour!.

I apologise for the Nyarko thing ? I was mistaken as to the time of the deal.

Rooney went for a minimum of £26m ? the fact that it was spread over a number of years is irrelevant ? a lot of deals are!

The reason (which everybody appears to forget) that AGMS & EGMs were scrapped, was because mindless KEIOC idiots kept abusing the shareholders priveledge by trying to call one about every 6 weeks to ask questions that were never going to be answered. The AGM / EGM is a shareholders priveledge, if some people take advantage of that to mess people about, then the club are within their rights to stop them ? yet its BIll who gets blamed for this not the mindless idiots who kept calling them and caused everybody else to miss out useful discussion.

Chris Briddon

I can?t remember who it was but, the other day, whilst reading TW, I read someone describe the people who organised the last EGM as ?arsehole shareholders? who were responsible for the abandonment of general meetings.  Chris Briddon [#106] states that the reason they were scrapped was due to KEIOC idiots; no Chris ? you?re taking the club line again (I wonder why?); the reason they were scrapped was that the Board was being exposed, they knew what was coming and they knew the support was there to secure it: read this link

Of course, Chris, you?re of the opinion that questions like this shouldn?t be asked... or indeed answered ? and that, of course, is your prerogative, but I?m happy to see that particular level of subservience is absent in the majority of the posters on here, which clearly bodes well for the future.

A few posters inform me that I should supply quotes and references?  This is simply an impromptu article posted on a fans' website, I didn?t feel the need to reference every claim; you can see that the majority on here already accept most of the points as most of it has been proven or witnessed by them in one capacity or another.

If you want references, there?s a plethora of information at hand if you wish to look around:

  • Articles about Keith Harris being as big a whopper as our chairman in the national and local press;
  • Articles on the disgraceful manner in which our fans were led a merry dance as this Board attempted to sell the club down the river;
  • Or you could just watch this video below (after the annoying ad!) of an incredibly prescient Radio City interview with Keith Wyness when Destination Kirkby was first announced to tremendous fanfare ? the so-called "Deal of the Century":

It?s noticeable in these responses that not one person attempts to argue the merits or defend the actions of the Board over their handling of the Destination Kirkby debacle ? something described by me as the club's darkest hour, when this chairman was materially responsible for implicating the club in a scheme which reduced Everton to the role of pawn in a £400M property con that would have seen Everton left in a Championship-standard stadium with Championship-standard income streams.

Perhaps you would like reference after reference to Everton?s quite mysterious association with Philip Green, as described in:

If you?re really keen to have a referenced work on the Kenwright years,  I can highly recommend this submission and this appendix; it?s some of the documentation that Everton?s QC attempted, and failed, to have excluded from the public inquiry into Destination Kirkby.

Most however won?t be bothered to look up all that minutiae, whilst others will always cast doubt on everything written against the Chairman and the Club in a desperate bid to prevent people from realising that you can't trust a single word that emanates from Bill Kenwright?s mouth.

So, in closing, I?ll just ask you to feast your eyes on this classic video from three years ago; watch it a few times and listen carefully in the knowledge of all that has been exposed since that time: 

Now ask yourself this question.... Is this really the person you want in charge of the future of our great club?

Here?s to three points tomorrow, despite the handicap we?ve had to endure for years.

Reader Comments

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
1   Posted 16/10/2010 at 23:29:09

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Sorry... I had the comments switched off while it was under construction. I still can't seem to get the Scribd hyperlinks to show up right on Safari. But Colin's probably right ? few are going to read them.

That interview with Wyness is something else... I don't know who the interviewer is but his questions and concerns were bang on the money.
Dick Fearon
2   Posted 16/10/2010 at 23:42:24

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Colin decries my Goebels reference that a lie repeated often enough etc becomes the truth. That same quote could also apply to much of the anti-BK statements.
Ste Traverse
3   Posted 17/10/2010 at 00:52:03

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Michael, the man who interviewed Wyness was Liam Blyth, a former presenter on Radio City who used to present Terrace Talk on a Saturday morning and a few other football programmes on that station. He did ask some brilliant questions in that interview and strangley enough he's a red.

The interview with Kenwright above I've seen many times and it proves what that excuse for a man, that excuse for an "Evertonian" will stoop to to get his own way.
Eugene Ruane
4   Posted 17/10/2010 at 01:13:29

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Dick Fearon, you say..

"Colin decrys my Goebels reference that a lie repeated often enough etc becomes the truth.
That same quote could also apply to much of the anti BK statements"

'Much of the anti BK statements'?

Fair enough Dick, can I suggest you simply point out the specific anti-bill statements (ie: lies) you refer to, give us the truth (maybe with the help of some references and/facts?) and then we'll KNOW you're right won't we.

However, if you're not prepared to do this and are simply going to continue your Pee Wee Herman debating tactic of "I know you are but what am I?" you should expect nothing but an extremely (and deserved) rough ride.
Michael Kenrick
5   Posted 17/10/2010 at 01:54:21

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Eugene, you beat me to it, and in your own inimitable style. Seems Dick has self-adopted the posture of the vacuous sneerer. Credit at least to Chris Briddon for attempting to raise specific issues with the original ? a challenging task no doubt.

Come on, Dick ? let's hear these specific examples: big lies about Kenwright that have been repeated so often people believe them to be true, even though they are not. I'd be interested to see what you can come up with.

Cheers for that info, Ste. It's as if he knew exactly where the weak points were, and just kept pressing each button in turn to get successively more outrageously optimistic predictions out of the man. Benefit f of hindsight, I know... but the interview itself was well before the full facts became widely known.
Andy McNabb
6   Posted 17/10/2010 at 05:55:22

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Must admit, this article simply made me feel miserable. I DON'T have all the answers, indeed, the longer it goes on, I don't feel I have ANY answers.

After decades of fighting to stay in the class, I have now been in management for the last three years. During that time, two things in particular have really stood out to me.

Firstly, the view is always better and somehow clearer from the cheap seats.
Secondly, the higher up the food chain you go, the more you learn that there is more to learn.

Colin's article may well have been an "iconic piece of penmanship" and yet this criticism does little more than create a huge vacuum of frustration. So we sack the Board and ditch the Manager? What then?

In a scene from 'A Man for all Seasons', Sir Thomas More argues with his prospective son-in-law, who is quite rightly pointing out all that is wrong with Church and State. Roper proudly states he would cut down every law in England to pursue the Devil. More then asks him what he would do when the last law was down and the Devil turned to face him. Where would he hide?

My point is, that it is relatively easy to pull down and so much more difficult to build up.

Is Billy a liar? Probably. Does Dave dither when making substitutions? Certainly.
But with WHAT are we going to replace them? Somebody please give me practical, plausible options. Otherwise we just end up chasing each other round in circles and attacking fellow supporters with cheap jibes.

I'll do the job for you and describe myself as naive but I am SO relieved we have our current management set up, rather than our neighbours who are dancing round the stars 'n stripes as if the new regime contains one iota of compassion for their new 'toy'. It's bad enough having a Centre Back who is using us as a stepping stone. At least Heitinga doesn't own the Club.

A huge amount of time, thought and research must have gone into the above article. Now here's another challenge, Colin. You've broken down the walls and exposed the rotten material. Now how do we even start to build them up again?
Lee Smith
7   Posted 17/10/2010 at 07:05:27

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Colin, I just want to say a big thank you for all you hard work, a truely exceptional effort! Good lad!
Ed Fitzgerald
8   Posted 17/10/2010 at 07:07:50

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Andy

I hope you are little more positive in your role as a school leader! Yes I accept that as supporters we may not know the complexity of the situation but lets be fair Kenwright has had a fair bit of time to make good on at least some of his many promises.

There are other models of football managment other than madness at Lpool and Man U and our own model based on inertia. My problem and I suspect many others is the constant flannel he puts out e.g. looking for investment 24/7. Be fair Andy would your Headteacher get away with making empty promises for as long as BK has?

Christine Foster
9   Posted 17/10/2010 at 09:00:46

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Andy, in highlighting the catalogue of BK's dubious tenure, Colin has drawn from a variety of knowledge base of the press, actual comment and inference, but not too much of the latter.
In that it shows how rotten the timbers are adn how poor the house is, your correct in saying its one thing to pull down the house but another to rebuild.

And there is the rub, you see Andy, we don't have the choice of who, how, what, when anything, any decision of any consequence is made.

All we know is where we are and how we got there and who is responsible.
There is absolutely no point in debating who should the club be sold too, we will never have the discussion or choice will we?

We can tell you what we would like but thats all we can ever do. The pointless responses of those who say "Ok then who would you get to replace him" is meaningless.

What we do know is that change must happen. How can we influence that change? Thats the real question that fans need to address.

Chris Leyland
10   Posted 17/10/2010 at 09:42:26

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Isn't there a game on today and might we not focus on that instead of this constant navel gazing?
Gavin Ramejkis
11   Posted 17/10/2010 at 09:32:18

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Thanks again Colin, pity there are still so many doubters. I implore fans no matter what side of the fence they sit on take the time and energy to look up these things for themselves, the evidence is out there and quite damning in many aspects.

Andy, from personal knowledge and experience I'd agree that the higher up the managerial food chain you go you get a much broader appreciation of the bigger picture. Unfortunately, given that knowledge and what is evident then you need to acknowledge that BK simply isnt the person for the job and the shady dealings going on with Green stink to high heaven. If BK was to drop the "true blue" "one of us" and other patronising lies then maybe a few of the more subservient acolytes would see the real BK.
Andy Riley
12   Posted 17/10/2010 at 09:47:35

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What is the future? I think most would welcome a change of ownership away from the current inertia and plodding on but we should be careful what we wish for. I don't think it's really in doubt that BK is an Evertonian but is he controlled by others? From the onset of the Premier League money has taken over and these new owners seem to see an angle which seems to be buy cheap, invest the minimum amount possible in order to raise the capital value and then sell or dilute their holding by issuing more shares to recoup their profits. This is what I think was the intention of Peter Johnson because initially he did spend quite heavily on the team but I think his financial priorities then changed and he wanted his money back which I recall led to something similar to the current position. Currently, I don't think BK personally has the resources to fund further investment and his backers don't seem to have the inclination to assist. Sadly, the only way I can see this changing in the foreseeable future is if the specter of relegation concentrates minds and the current value of the major shareholdings reduces significantly. This will lead to increased investment by these major shareholders or disposal of their holdings.
Paul Mackie
13   Posted 17/10/2010 at 10:00:59

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I'll admit that before Colin's articles I was pretty much apathetic to the whole BK situation. I think my mind has been changed though.

Will be interesting to see if Dick can point out the massive lies and shed some "truth" on them (backed up with sources, obviously).
David O'Keefe
14   Posted 17/10/2010 at 10:05:02

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Paul Mackie:

The BK apologists can't be positive about their man; their arguments are usually the following:

1) He's not Peter Johnson
2) At least were not (name of club in trouble)

... and that's it.

They never have anything positive to say about him; apart from he appointed David Moyes. One good decision in 11 years, what ever happened to the laws of averages?

I'm glad you made a decision Paul, whether I agree with it or not (and I do in this instance). As we can't sit on the fence anymore; the club is in serious trouble now due to the board's failure to resolve the clubs long term problems.
Andy Riley
15   Posted 17/10/2010 at 10:14:29

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A house is for sale. The value is £100,000. The owner will willingly sell for £300,000 or alternatively you can pay the owner £50,000 - the owner keeps all rights and ownership but in return will let you sit on his sofa for two hours once a fortnight. Prepare to be knocked over in the rush!
John Andrews
16   Posted 17/10/2010 at 10:49:35

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Well said Andy. The springs are coming through the sofa as well due to negligence from the householder.
Ernie McAllister
17   Posted 17/10/2010 at 11:59:45

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Let's pretend the whole thing isn't happening... in 10 years time we'll be supporting some shite team across the water no doubt.

Regardless of who is covering what up. The FACTS remain we are deep in trouble. We knew this day would eventually come around.

We struggled and struggled to be a top 6 side... very unrealistically with that fat controller and the grave robbers in charge. It was always only every going to end one way, and that was us sinking further and further down the table.

Consider for a moment even the tiny teams from the Championship (Wolves, West Brom et al) coming up season on season with twice the capital we have. There is clearly only one certain outcome that can happen. That is us going down, loosing more money and imploding quite literally.

The point being it is now for us to do something urgently to remove the entire board from this institution or come 10 years time maybe less we won't even have a football club to support.

Don't hide with your head beneath the pillows and not accept we as a club are dying. We have been for years. What goes on, on the pitch is not as important as what goes on behind the scenes and the continued lack of interest or money.

Time for action is now, quite what that action maybe is for someone else to think off. But no more lies and propaganda from BK apologists above... who can't even accept themselves for whom they are.
Brian Waring
18   Posted 17/10/2010 at 12:36:46

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David (#14) you can add to that "He geve us Moyes" and the best "He's a true blue, with the clubs best interest at heart."

Dick, Colin has done a thorough piece on BK as to why the man is a complete joke, most of us already knew this, because we don't see everything through blue-tinted specs.

So Dick, instead of your usual crap, why don't you come up with a piece on what BK has done for the club, along with your take on all the lies and bullshit the man has come out with.
Dick Fearon
19   Posted 17/10/2010 at 16:01:26

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I am sorry to disapoint those who are demanding my version of events. If I had hard copy facts and not third party opinions I would be delighted to oblige.
Sadly I was not in attendance of a single meeting between the board and anyone else involved with decision making at the club.
Whether it is BK or anyone else I will not besmirch a persons reputation without having all the facts and preferably directly from actual witnesses to events.
I am puzzled as to why not one out of potentially hundreds of actual witnesses has come forward to clear the air.
I agree that many things have gone awry during BKs tenure yet most of them had their origins in a lengthy period before BK had any controlling influence.
As for his telling porkys about how well off we were what does anyone expect him to do. When there is even a faint chance of cracking a deal should he go into the market place wearing rags?
The way some would have it BK was deliberately lying to our own supporters.
Do you really believe that was his main intent or could it be that he was putting on a front for the benefit of others.
David O'Keefe
20   Posted 17/10/2010 at 16:48:46

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Thats a cop-out, Dick, and you know it. A series of non-sequiters and obfuscations is all you have to offer.
David Moorcroft
21   Posted 17/10/2010 at 20:22:51

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Colin, Absolutly fantastic piece. How anyone can forgive this phoney Evertonian is beyond me.

This man was responsible for almost pulling off the biggest con this city would have ever seen. Going from the most iconic stadium in the world, on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey, to a small town like Kirkby.... For the so called ringfenced money from the non exsisting Fortress Sports Fund. £30 million, That is all it would have cost us for the Kings Dock. Then, lo and behold, when that boss deal vanished, 12 fucking months later this other super Evertonian, Tesco Terry turns up with this "Deal of the Century in Kirkby.

As far as I am concerned Kenwright is fucking EVIL.

Ste Traverse
22   Posted 18/10/2010 at 03:13:13

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As far as I'm concerned the arrogant,egotistical Kenwright loves his little niche of being chairman too much to give it up even for the good of the club.

I'd go as far as to say he'd rather be at the helm of a unsuccessful EFC rather than take a back seat at a successful Everton.

If we are to be a successful club again this clown has to be removed. His massive ego is what's holding this club back. He arrogantly thinks there's someone out there that will invest millions and still let him hold power and it isn't gong to happen.
Tom Fearon
23   Posted 18/10/2010 at 11:25:19

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If Kenwright is the embodiment of evil and is damaging our club why does David Moyes, who works closely with his Chairman, praise him so? Of course, many regular TW contributors would say that Kenwright has given DM an attractive contract and this is merely pay back time by a man of limited managerial ability.

But if like me you believe that DM is a man of integrity, who wants the best for our club and who posseses a high level of football intelligence, his praise for BK, which he does not have to spell out, gives me pause for thought. Perhaps BK has some admirable qualities which are more apparent to those close to him than those who hate from a distance.

Michael Kenrick
24   Posted 18/10/2010 at 14:45:30

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Tom, I think that, as a man off integrity and an honourable employee of Bill Kenwright, David Moyes would do nothing less. To expect him to naysay his boss in public is naive in the extreme, whatever he may believe personally. David Moyes is paid a very large sum of money to manage the team for BK. I think when it comes to the issues being raised here, David Moyes would have a very clear Conflict of Interest.

And by the way, just to clarify, it's not "hate from a distance", it's concern about what the Chairman has done to our club... concern about the veracity of the claims he makes... concern about whether he really is or has been acting in the club's best interests.
Chris Briddon
25   Posted 18/10/2010 at 14:56:45

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Michael (26) your right, you wouldn't expect Davey to say anything negative about the owners, but he wasn't asked his opinion he volunteered the information extoling the virtues of EFC over Liverpool. If you aren't happy, then dont mention it, you dont go out of your way to wax lyrical about someone you don't like do you?

I am not an apologist for anyone, I am intelligent human being who is quite capable of making his own opinions based on the evidence provided. I do not spout the 'club line' as Colin refers to it as, it is my opinion given the information put before me ? I just happen to believe theirs more than I believe yours!

Your comment on the Loop fiasco is that Bestaway pulled out because they were being messed around by EFC, well EFC were never interested in it as it wasn't viable, but the idea was still being passed around ? right up until the Kirkby move was pulled ? when the Loop idea seemed to disappear.

Now if you ask me, when Everton have no options you push it more ? not drop the subject. The Loop was no more than a red herring to try and persuade people against the move to Kirkby ? and you then have the nerve to accuse EFC of spouting propaganda! Well I am afraid the same is true of both sides ? this only issue is which side you believe!
Tom Fearon
26   Posted 18/10/2010 at 14:55:38

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Michael, as an honourable employee David Moyes does not have to praise his boss in the fullsome way he chooses to do. Let us just imagine that DM, as a man of integrity, actually believes what he says about Kenwright, a man he knows better that you or I. One might suggest that you have a conflict of interest here given your previous anti-Moyes outbursts.

I do not think that many TW readers need clarification when considering the word "hate". That is exactly the emotion that is displayed in many posts. You think that acceptable. I think it devalues rational discussion.

Andy Crooks
27   Posted 18/10/2010 at 19:01:18

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There are still Evertonians who admire and respect Bill Kenwright, David Moyes is one. As someone who has been firmly on the anti Kenwright side I challenge Richard Dodd or anyone else to write a defence as compelling as Colin's denouncement has been.
Tony I'Anson
28   Posted 18/10/2010 at 20:34:08

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On Sunday afternoon, after our win I went into a pub near Goodison and I had a conversation for a couple of hours with Colin and a couple of other KEIOC officers. If you think these articles were passionate and detailed, then think again, because if you ever get to meet them you will discover a group of people who really do live, sleep and breathe Everton.

And let's not forget that all the hours put into their efforts to date have been on a voluntary basis. We shared a few rounds of drinks and I personally thanked them for all their efforts on behalf of all Toffeewebaholics across the world.

Colin may come on here and tell you where he goes for a drink after the match, as it's not my place to say.
Ste Traverse
29   Posted 19/10/2010 at 07:31:11

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Was I the only blue a bit bemused to hear Moyes telling everyone he "wouldn't swop Kenwright for anyone" after the derby win? So is Mr Moyes more than happy to have £0 to spend summer in summer out? Was it in his bumper overpaid contract that he had to say stuff like this? The cynic in me thinks these words were put into Moyes's mouth by the club in response to Colin Fitzpatrick's brilliant and damning summing up of the Kenwright years.

Would Mr Moyes not swop Kenwright for a more competent chairman who would give him a bit more cash to spend? Surely he would.

Colin Fitzpatrick
30   Posted 19/10/2010 at 12:22:52

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Chris [26] You state "I am intelligent human being who is quite capable of making his own opinions based on the evidence provided. I do not spout the 'club line'" Really?

The site off Scotland Road, the one you appear to be unable to stop talking about, the so called loop site; are you aware that the "site" in question is almost 1km in length? Everton were never aware of this because they refused to sit down and discuss the proposal. Have you ever spoken with the director of Bestway responsible for property and discussed this site? I have, that's why I know the proposal inside out, I know that the world's foremost stadia architects confirmed a 50,000 seat stadium could be built on the loop site, I know the council leader, at that time, was open to supporting the proposal, I know that the same master planners for Destination Kirkby, at the behest of the land owners and the council, investigated the options for the loop site as part of a study on the redevelopment of an area extending from the docks, through Vauxhall to Islington and concluded that the site was indeed suitable for housing various stadia designs. Where did you obtain the information, the evidence if you like, that enabled you to form the opinion that the loop site "wasn't viable", that it was a "red herring"? Am I alone in remembering who uttered those two phrases?

Everton's first position, before the ballot, was that the site was too small, that it could only house a 35,000 seat stadium at best., that it was, to quote Keith Wyness a "red herring". This expert opinion was obtained from the same person who advised them on the Bellefield application that failed, that advised them to appeal to the Government over the rejection, that failed, and was the club advisor over Destination Kirkby, which also failed.

According to Bill Kenwright this gentleman just happened to be in town on the evening of the 2007 AGM so he popped along and addressed the shareholders, which was jolly decent of him and a story I'm sure you're only too willing to believe. His position that night was no longer that the loop was too small, it was now too expensive, that it simply "wasn't viable" partly due to the horrendous cost of constructing a plinth over the tunnel roadway. When challenged by an architect, with some experience on stadium design, [he just happened to be in town that night and KEIOC invited him] he admitted, much to the amusement of the assembled shareholders, that construction wasn't his discipline! I have to admit that construction isn't my discipline either but, like many, I was absolutely amazed by the claim that something that wasn't yet designed, or even discussed, could be too expensive and that if you can build a £78m stadium in Kirkby you could build a £78m stadium in Everton, what's the difference? Of course many knew exactly what the difference was.

Just to get back on topic, the articles weren't about KEIOC, they questioned the veracity of Bill Kenwright and whether he is suitable as chairman and director of EFC in light of a long list of failures but specifically his standing by whilst Everton were sold down the river with Destination Kirkby, potentially due to the strong suggestion that a shadow director operates at Goodison. I was convinced that DK would have been detrimental to the long term success of Everton, I'm equally convinced that Bill Kenwright and Robert Earl shouldn't be involved in the running or the sale of the club for exactly the same reason. Their combined shareholding equates to approximately 47% of the total, they cost less than £20m but could return almost £90m. You have to admire this, that's an excellent piece of business by someone; but probably not the someone who " does not own shares for profit or involvement."
Nick Wall
31   Posted 19/10/2010 at 12:53:44

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#31 I think Moyes's defence of Kenwright was sincere. He feels that he has a good working relationship with BK, and that BK has given him the time and support that he's needed to build his own team at Everton.

The best thing that can be said about Kenwright is that he found a decent manager and stuck by him. Thank god we haven't had a new coach every 12 or 18 months like one or two clubs I could mention.
David O'Keefe
32   Posted 19/10/2010 at 15:00:29

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SIncere? How about diplomatic, if he told the truth he would be shown the door by this phoney.
Micheal Lynch
33   Posted 19/10/2010 at 21:03:41

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This is an excellent article Colin and a credit to you. Leaves me in no doubt that Blue Bill is in this along with Earl for profit only and this image of been a true blue is merley to keep the fans quiet. The sad thing is we seem to accept it and thats sad. Whatever you say about liverpool fc you have too admire there protests. Its a pity we dont do the same . The best of all is not allowing a show of hands in the vote at the agm and having the rules changed. Its lies lies lies and even some journalist believe it. Its a pity that some national paper does not show this liar for what he is. Im sure not all everton fans read toffeeweb and this is a site prob viewed by a minority. Thats a pity cause its the best source of info for all fans and this article proves it yet again . Great work
Chris Briddon
34   Posted 20/10/2010 at 10:43:57

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Colin - you just dont get it do you - I don't spout the club line, I consider the evidence and have my opinions on it.

You seem to be of the opinion that any opinion that is different to yours must question the intelligence of the other person.

Tihs is my objection to all this - in this you are similar to a lot of posters on here. People are allowed to have different opinions that doesn't make them wrong, it just means they have come to a different conclusion to you. BK has the EFC agenda, you have na anti-BK agenda therefore I take all comments from everybody in the context to which they are placed.

I made no comment on the viability of the Loop site, just the strange fact that it was dropped as soon as the Kirkby decision was made - thus giving it all the impression of a red herring. If it was a viable option 2 years ago, why did it all go quiet immediately there was a possibiltl it could be considered.

You have questions of EFC, I have questions of KEIOC and their associates.

At no point have I questioned your intelligence for spouting opinions I disagree with, so why should you be entitled to question mine for doing the same.

Learn to discuss rather then attempt to enforce - you might then stand more chance of making a case to the masses
Bill Slater
35   Posted 20/10/2010 at 12:34:05

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hello Fellas,
Just recovering from the Derby hangover.

Chris (36) do you not think that after the Kirkby decision the keioc volunteers have breathed a massive sigh of relief and have taken their feet of the gas to recover from the experience?

I cannot imagine they enjoyed it very much, lost much sleep, got stressed out to the max, missed countless episodes of EastEnders and spent an absolute fortune's worth of their own time ensuring that the project was called in. I wonder if any of their wives would care to make a comment about it?

i'd also like to say that I can't imagine for one minute that you have heard the end of people like Colin. For Christ sake man, give them a break, or maybe how about a salary to cover all their time and effort to date on behalf of us all.

At the end of the day, facts are facts. If you can come up with more facts to counter all or any of Colin's points made in these 2 articles, I'm sure we will all gladly study them and debate them too. I'm looking forward to your article.
Eugene Ruane
36   Posted 20/10/2010 at 12:28:44

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Ha ha ha, Jeeeesus!

Chris you say..

"Colin - you just dont get it do you".

That alone should in my opinion win unintentional funniest line on TW ever.

But you're nowhere near done.

"I don't spout the club line, I consider the evidence and have my opinions on it".

Yes of course you do.

Chris, you know how I KNOW that is bollocks?

You know how I know you are ALL about an agenda?

Because you avoid specifics like the fucking plague.

You talk all around the houses and say nothing apart from "I'm entitled to my opinion".

Or "I'm allowed to disagree".

Here's a typical bit of non-specific bluster.

"You have questions of EFC, I have questions of KEIOC and their associates"

Really?

You DO!?

Fine....let's hear 5 of them.

Let's have something specific

Let's see how valid these questions are.

And by the way, why (if you don't have an agenda) when someone criticises the highly paid people who run Everton FC (badly) why do you think a counter-position is criticising a voluntary, non-paid group, set up with the simple aim of Keeping Everton in the city?

Do you see them as equals?

Do you think they are equally answerable to Evertonians?

If yes, why?

If no, why keep on mentioning them?

Remember, It was keioc not wtbkiac (we think BK is...)

Your final flourish is beyond surreal.

"Learn to discuss rather then attempt to enforce - you might then stand more chance of making a case to the masses".

Here's a tip for you, use a few specifics, you might stand more of a chance of making a case to someone other than Doddy

I mean ffs, did you actually read Colin's post?

More importantly did you read the responses?

There was even one poster saying it had completely changed his mind (a complete change of mind on TW, is rarer than rocking horse shite)

Really, you're fooling nobody and as they used to say on Opra - 'denial isn't just a river in Egypt' (girlfriend!)
Colin Fitzpatrick
37   Posted 20/10/2010 at 13:08:49

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Chris, it is in fact you that doesn?t get it. I obviously haven?t explained myself very well; so once again, you said, ? I am intelligent human being who is quite capable of making his own opinions based on the evidence provided. I do not spout the 'club line'" I have indicated where you are spouting the club line and having shared with you the evidence on where i form my opinion I have asked you to show me the ?evidence? upon which you formed your opinion, I believe this is perfectly acceptable request after having earlier calling me, by association, a mindless idiot.

Your comprehension of discussion and debate is quite ludicrous and I?m sure many will agree leaves you looking a complete knob.

Now about this evidence concerning the loop on which you were able to form your opinion that it wasn't viable, that it was a "red herring" or was it just what you have read in The Echo? You appear unable to substantiate your argument

The floor is all yours.
Chris Briddon
38   Posted 20/10/2010 at 13:27:57

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Eugene ? sadly you are mistaken: I have, on a couple of occasions since Colin's first article, written questions (that I am not entirely happy with the answers of)... but that wasn't the point of the last comment. As I said before, you have to take things in context and you clearly haven't; I have mentioned specifics before but this was part of an-ongoing discussion.

You have also clearly emphasised my point by ridiculing me because I hold a different opinion to you. I have made NO attempt to try and change your mind, and don't particularly care what your opinion of me is ? but the fact is my opinions are based on my understanding and aren't just following the club line (as you seem to imply).

Please get it into your had (and this goes for a number of people on here) I can read the same stuff as you and come to a different conclusion / opinion ? it is allowed you know!
Chris Briddon
39   Posted 20/10/2010 at 13:33:53

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Colin ? ok, I meant you didn't get the fact that others are entitled to another opinion than you ? yet every time I suggest I have, you have another go.

I also never mentioned any 'evidence' on the loop site, just the fact that it dropped off the radar as soon as Kirkby was dead. I don't pretend to have any knowledge of it as an option, viable or not.

But if it's not a red herring, why has it disappeared, whether EFC want to talk about it or not, that never stopped KEIOC spouting about it before!

And as for personal insults Colin ? well if thats how you expect to win supporters, good luck with that.
Eugene Ruane
40   Posted 20/10/2010 at 14:23:49

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Exactly (I mean EXACTLY) my point.

You say..

"You have also clearly emphasised my point by ridiculing me because I hold a different opinion to you".

Chris, your weapons are useless - it is there for the whole world to see.

I ridicule you NOT because you hold a 'different opinion' but because you deal in non-specific waffle.

Asked to come up with questions or points the best you can do is "I'm entitled to my opinion"

Pitiful and your 'I'm an adult' stance fools nobody.
Bill Slater
41   Posted 20/10/2010 at 14:35:53

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Chris, can I ask what your opinion is about the current Everton board and their performance during their tenure?

Seriously, I would like to know. If you come up with points I agree with, I will say it.

I just get the feeling that many are businessmen first, then Evertonians, and not vice versa as they portray.

If it was me looking to walk away with £20m after the sale, I can't hand on heart say I wouldn't be tempted to try and take the money.....But I would at least try and be honest about it.
Colin Fitzpatrick
42   Posted 20/10/2010 at 14:37:39

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Chris, dear oh dear, your typing being all over the place, tells me you?re running out of excuses. No Chris, you?ll find I state time and time again that people have the prerogative to hold whatever opinion they wish to; you?re sneeringly insinuating that your opinions are based on your examination of evidence that I, and others, suggest doesn?t exist and that you are promoting the misinformation put out by the club.

Rather than being misled by your hissy fit let's just stick with the matter in hand: are you now claiming you didn?t state that ?The Loop was no more than a red herring? and that ?EFC were never interested in it as it wasn?t viable? and that these astounding conclusions, also known as the club line, were arrived at by you from examining some evidence provided? You have stated all of this, are you unable to read what you type? I?ve asked you to provide the evidence upon which you based your opinion, this is what you said, but are we now to understand, on the loop, your latest position is ?I don't pretend to have any knowledge of it as an option viable or not.? and ?if it's not a red herring, why has it disappeared??

My advice to you Chris is don?t claim to have examined evidence when you haven?t, don?t repeat rhetoric and attempt to pass it off as personal opinion that you have reached after having examined evidence when in reality all you?re doing is repeating parrot fashion the outpouring of a rem at the club. And if you want know why the loop came to nothing, understand this: Everton?s single minded pursuit of Kirkby meant that all possible alternatives were dismissed in favour of a sub-standard £78m stadium that was masqueraded as one costing £130m in a location that was grossly unsuitable to the future wellbeing of the club due to a laughable annual contribution of £6m and the very real possibility that this figure would be downgraded significantly due to lower attendance levels and through attendance capping due to an inherent inability to meet modal share targets.

The chairman was materially responsible for this charade and you choose to defend his actions, others choose to examine his competency or his and another director's actual position of a true shareholder.

With regard to any expectation I have of gaining your support, and that of one or two others on here, I can only say you?re delusional and as for taking umbrage at being called a knob perhaps you should refrain from calling me, and my fellow blue friends, mindless idiots, two words that you appear to own outright!

Seriously Chris I wouldn?t take the attacks on you too personally if I were you, it?s just that too many people have had enough of the bullshit, the spin, the relentless manipulation of the truth about a very long list of fiascos culminating in Destination Kirkby.
Chris Briddon
43   Posted 20/10/2010 at 14:56:32

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Eugene ? Again, you fail to understand what I'm getting at.

I am not trying to argue in favour of BK, just that I don't have to jump up and down in support of Colin either.

I am not trying to argue that Colin is wrong per se, just that I don't agree with him. I don't have to justify myself to you, the same as you don't have to justify yourself to me.

Bill ? for what it's worth, I am relatively happy with the current board, but accept they have limitiations (mainly financial) and as such cannot take my club in the direction it needs to go to compete at the top table. However, given the lack of any rich billionaire Evertonian to buy the club, I would rather see us managed carefully than just throwing money around in the hope that we will reach the golden gates of the Champions League.

As far as Goodison is concerned, I love the place and would like to stay, but also accept it has limitations (as do EFC). As such, we have limted options available, we have no money to build a stadium or re-develop the one we have, which is why I was grudgingly in favour of Kirkby, not because it was perfect, but becuase it was the best deal we were likely to get without the mystery billionaire.

I don't believe the conspiracy theories about BK, sometimes he speaks before he thinks, but I believe he has the best intentions of EFC at heart, the fact that occasionally he goes about it in a different way than I would doesn't remove that opinion. I don't run the club so don't have to make the difficult decisions that appear to rile some Evertonians on a regular basis.

I also find it strange that people seem to be contradictory about BK, one minute the club's not for sale, the next he's only in it for the money so was moving to Kirkby to make a bigger profit.

There are inconsistencies with both sides of the argument and the complication is to pick through them all and formulate an opinion. I have done that ? it may be different to a lot of people on here, but is fairly consistent with a lot of supporters I know.

I hope that answers your question.
Chris Briddon
44   Posted 20/10/2010 at 15:07:41

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Colin ? Oh no, criticising my typing skills... whatever next, would you like to have a go at my grammar as well. Seriously get over it ? I disagree with you; I am quite happy to leave it that, but you don't seem to want to let me, so you come back with criticism and personal attacks again and again ? you really have no idea how to win support of people do you!

I have no idea about the loop and readily admit it, my question was why it disappeared once Kirkby was shelved. You say "Everton?s single-minded pursuit of Kirkby meant that all possible alternatives were dismissed" ? well that never stopped it being publicised day after day for the months preceding Kirkby during the supposed exclusivity agreement, my question is why did it stop appearing after Kirkby was discarded? You still haven't actually answered this point yet, but come up with some comment about the club not being interested, or something or other ? but nothing changed, other than Kirkby was cancelled. So surely if the Loop was realisitc and affordable that should be the time it was being pushed bot when EFC were already tied into Kirkby - unless it was a smokescreen to try and convince EFC supporters that there were other options that hadnt been considered.

I've persoonally had enough of the spin and propoganda that comes from KEIOC and anti-BK people but I still have to read it, as people never seem to tire of repeating it again and again. I have stated my opinions and what I think, your response has been distinctly less than polite, for example: "I can only say you?re delusional and as for taking umbrage at being called a knob perhaps you should refrain from calling me, and my fellow blue friends, mindless idiots, two words that you appear to own outright!"

I have never called you or anybody a mindless idiot. I only referred to the term in discussion of why the AGMs were stopped. You however seem to think it's perfectly acceptable to call people who disagree with you 'delusional', which is one of the main reasons why a number of supporters won't engage in discussion on TW or other similar sites, as any contradictory opinion gets this response.

If this is what happens when I'm entitled to my opinion then there is no wonder people stop sharing opposing opinions on this or other websites.

Eugene Ruane
45   Posted 20/10/2010 at 15:57:55

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Chris, I'll try and explain, in the SIMPLEST POSSIBLE terms, my problem with your 'opinion'.

You say...

"I am not trying to argue that Colin is wrong per se, just that I don't agree with him. I don't have to justify myself to you, the same as you don't have to justify yourself to me".

Wrong, DEAD wrong!

Because I DO have to justify myself/my opinions (or at least attempt to) otherwise the notion of adult debate is pointless.

Here is what your 'nobody has to justify themselves' thread would look like.

Reg Twong; "I think Bill is a Liar"

Ronnie Twang: "I don't"

Bill Crint: "Neither do I"

Mary Trousers: "Oh he SO is"

Geddit? ('durrrrr....no!')

Let me tell you (as you're obviously unaware) that ANYONE who gives an opinion on ANYTHING, then when asked why they hold that opinion responds with 'I dont have to justify myself to you' is making THEMSELVES look a total fucking idiot, capable of 'debate' only at the level of a 8 year old.

In other words, if someone chooses to dance about wearing a clown suit, a red nose and a pin-wheel hat, they shouldn't whine when people say 'he looks a right fucking soft twat'.

As you've shown yourself to be incapable of anything other than Pee Wee debate, I'll make this my last post aimed in your direction.

I'm often reminded of this scene, but particularly today..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIYz8tfGjY
Colin Fitzpatrick
46   Posted 20/10/2010 at 16:34:46

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Chris, to be honest I?m finding this embarrassing, it?s like baiting an unfortunate. You are unable to read, realise or understand what you type. Although I could use many, here?s an example of what you now claim: ?I have never called you or anybody a mindless idiot. I only referred to the term in discussion of why the AGMs were stopped.?

I explained that, by association, you called me a mindless idiot due to you earlier claiming [like it was a fact] ?The reason (which everybody appears to forget) that AGMs & EGMs were scrapped, was because mindless KEIOC idiots kept abusing the shareholders privilege.? As my two friends called the said EGM and are involved in KEIOC, as I am, it?s a safe enough assumption that you are calling me and my friends idiots and needless to say you?re again simply reiterating the club?s line over their misuse of power.

I have also provided everyone on here a copy of the second resolution which prompted the club to take the action. General meeting have been stopped to protect a highly dubious board from being asked questions they prefer not to answer, you feel they shouldn?t be asked, you clearly know your place.

Despite being asked by many, you are unable to substantiate or elucidate any of the opinions you claim to have arrived at through examining non-existent evidence despite being challenged time and time again by probably the majority on here, yet you hilariously go on to regurgitate the club waffle about Kirkby, KEIOC et al. I?ll say again ? the loop died a death due to Everton and Everton alone; like you, they know nothing about the proposal ? the design, the size of the site and having no design there can be no cost so it can?t be too expensive ? because they refused to speak to the owners.

I?ll remind you again the topic of this thread is about questioning the veracity of Bill Kenwright and whether he is suitable as chairman and director of EFC in light of a long list of failures but specifically his standing by whilst Everton were sold down the river with Destination Kirkby, potentially due to the strong suggestion that a shadow director operates at Goodison; you appear to want to change this subject, you appear uncomfortable and want to talk about anything to keep off the subject.

I?m just glad you continue to give me and others the platform to expose the lies that have been told; by continuing your Kirkby claims, what was it you said "we have no money to build a stadium or re-develop the one we have, which is why I was grudgingly in favour of Kirkby" Through your inability to understand you unwittingly help many to understand what has gone on and make them rightly question what may happen in the future.

Well done!

Michael Kenrick
47   Posted 20/10/2010 at 16:32:53

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Chris, apologies ? I was a bit slow in cleaning up your typos. Insults aside, I've always maintained as you do that people can read the same information and come to vastly different conclusions.

On that point, and since you are one of very few to challenge the summary provided by Colin with any substantive comments, I'm just intrigued how you are able to look at certain events in our club's past and presumably be comfortable with them, whereas they are a cause of great concern for other Evertonians who (let's say for the sake of arguement) have read or heard about them to the same extent as you have.

Let's consider some examples. The one that stands out for me is the announcement of the Fortress Sports Fund, the rather bold statements about it to Everton Shareholders at an AGM, and the production of a person in the form of Christopher Samuelson, who claimed to be a lifelong Evertonian. I don't know if you are a shareholder (if not, please pretend you were): you were lied to, quite blatantly ? surely there's no arguement or doubt about that fact... is there?

So I presume in this case the end justifies the means? It was done to prevent Paul Gregg from taking over control of the club and/or forcing Kenwright out? I don't want to put words into your mouth, but is that the rationale? Better the devil you know (than a man who knows nothing about football), therefore anything goes?

In your mind, does that justify lying to the shareholders, generating a total sham in the form of FSF and Samuelson and passing it off as the truth? That the cheque will be in the bank in the morning?
Bill Slater
48   Posted 20/10/2010 at 17:01:09

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Chris (45) thanks for the reply.

QUOTE 1 - "for what its worth, I am relatively happy with the current board, but accept they have limitiations (mainly financial) and as such cannot take my club in the direction it needs to go to compete at the top table."

QUESTION: When was the last time any of them put any of their own money into Everton? They want it to run as a carefully managed business by itself and reap the rewards when they sell. They don't want to invest any more of their own funds to take the club forward.
Chris, would you agree with this or admit it's possible?

ANALOGY: If you called a taxi and they turned up in a stinking old red banger with no seat belts and a foul mouthed, flatulating, over the limit driver - would you be happy? Next time would you call the taxi company with a the big shiny new 6 seater cabs with DVD players, leather seats, free cups of coffee and a smart uniformed driver who doesn't talk shite. May I suggest that the latter could have been the former some time before, but they put some proper investment into their business to keep up with the modern needs of their customers, and by default increased the value of their taxi business.



QUOTE 2: "I also find it strange that people seem to be contradictory about BK, one minute the clubs not for sale, the next hes only in it for the money so was moving to Kirkby to make a bigger profit."

COMMENT: The Club is ONLY (allegedly) for sale when Phillip Green says it is . Bill K is "only in it for the money" in as much that if a new ground is funded with the retail enabling partners, all directors stand to (allegedly) make a killing. And RETAIL MAGNET Phillip Green will have met his objective of why he (allegedly) invested in Everton in the first place. Do you think this is possible Chris?

ANALOGY: Phillip Green has got Bill by the balls and is holding them very tight (allegedly, and not literally).
Brian Waring
49   Posted 20/10/2010 at 17:55:51

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Chris ? "Personally I've had enough of the spin and propoganda that comes from KEIOC and anti-BK people, but I still have to read it."

Chris, why do you "still have to read it"?
Ste Traverse
50   Posted 20/10/2010 at 19:42:19

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Chris, you've been schooled all over the place. Give it up man.
Chris Briddon
51   Posted 20/10/2010 at 19:48:35

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Brian ? Because that's all people post, and out of politeness I tend to try and read all people's opinions ? not just those I agree with.

Bill ? your statement is pure conjecture regarding Philip Green. There are two schools commented by the same people, that EFC isn't for sale, yet Bill is also only in it to make money ? as such, if you are in it to make money, you sell when you make a big enough profit; 'not for sale' makes it impossible to sell for a profit.

There are also very few owners who plough lots of money into the club ? especially if they don't have it ? would you rather he did a H & G or Glazier, and borrowed excessively, landing us with even bigger debts just to be able to spend a few quid?

Michael ? you mention the FSF; well, I am not 'in the know' enough to know what went on or why the process was never complete but I am also not one to hold too many grudges on past mistakes. I also said earlier he had made mistakes ? I make no claim that the current situation is perfect.

Personally I am grateful Gregg was removed, as he has shown since through various attempts to buy Sheff Wed and others to be less competent than the present incumbent.

Colin / Eugene ? we are going in circles and are never going to reach agreement. I did not start this to argue every point of detail of Bill's reign, but to raise a number of questions with Colin's article ? as everybody else here just seemed to accept it at face value without questioning any of his claims, even down to insulting David Moyes transfer record (which in my opinion is one of the better in the league).

Colin seems to be of the opinion that I believe what I am told by EFC ? not true, I believe what I decide is most likely to be true. I am sorry, Colin, that this is contrary to a number of your statements but there it is ? it sometimes happens you know.

I am not going to post anymore on this thread, as it all seems rather pointless, but just to make the point ? there are posters on here who don't believe anything that comes out of EFC; there are some who believe everything that comes from EFC. The same applies to believing what is said by supporters of KEIOC.

Believe it or not, it is possible that the truth lies somewhere in-between. I am free to make my own choices in what I believe ? as is everybody else, so don't shoot them down or insult them just because their opinions differ from yours.

All I have ever intended to do is question some of the comments that have been made; at no point have I meant to offend (sorry, Colin, if I came across that way ? it wasnt my intention and I will retract the phrase 'mindless idiots' if it will help.) However, there are people who like to cause trouble for the sake of it and don't appreciate any of the positive things about Everton Football Club.

I have been through the days of Johnson blocking attempted transfers by Joe Royle and selling players without the manager's consent. At present, we have owners who don't interfere with the manager and allow him to get on with the job ? of which we should all be grateful.

Leroy Brown
52   Posted 20/10/2010 at 20:14:06

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Colin

Your article contains some semblance of accuracy, but the factual content - which 99% of Evertonians were already aware of - is spoiled by the endless pie in the sky padding and the agressive attacks on fellow blues. Try to understand the difference between fact and your skewed opinion.

Chris: you're pissing against the wind lad, you are the "allowed" token opposition.

Bill: laudible though the efforts of KEIOC were during DKgate, they had fuck all to do with the final decision.
Colin Fitzpatrick
53   Posted 20/10/2010 at 20:51:52

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Thank fuck he?s shut up, although it did take another three paragraphs! I should be insulted over the Moyes transfer jibe but taking anything seriously from anyone who attempts to pass off FSF with the comment ?I am also not one to hold too many grudges on past mistakes? is like listening to someone telling you Roy Hodgson will be in a job next week!!!!!
Leroy Brown
54   Posted 20/10/2010 at 20:57:00

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"Thank fuck he`s shut up" ...

Way to go Colin lad, silence the opposition... Now you can all sit huddled together and bad mouth everyone.
Colin Fitzpatrick
55   Posted 20/10/2010 at 20:55:38

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Leroy, "spoiled by the endless pie in the sky padding and the agressive attacks on fellow blues. Try to understand the difference between fact and your skewed opinion."

Could you give me some examples from either article?

Thanks

Bill Slater
56   Posted 20/10/2010 at 20:56:52

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Chris my final comment ? if EFC were sold for £180M next week how much would Bill Kenwright and each of the other directors walk away with?
Leroy Brown
57   Posted 20/10/2010 at 21:07:30

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Colin

I could blow huge fucken holes in your piece, but I will not spend half an hour on something that will proabably be deleted.

You may be able to pull the wool over the overseas posters' eyes, but you`ve stretched the truth here mate... and you know it.

I agree Kenright has to go, but lay off fellow blues, mate.
Bill Slater
58   Posted 20/10/2010 at 21:13:26

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Leroy, it was not Keioc's objective to make the decision as I see it. Their efforts managed to get it called in to a public enquiry for it to be decided, so yes you are correct in your statement and I can only imagine that Keioc would agree with you?
Leroy Brown
59   Posted 20/10/2010 at 21:16:24

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Tell you what I'll do, Col,

I`ll drive a coach and horse through some of your err... opinions.

Let's see if it sees the light of day on here...
Leroy Brown
60   Posted 20/10/2010 at 21:19:47

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Bill,

You're wrong lad, they had nothing to do with it being called in either.

THAT IS A FACT.
Leroy Brown
61   Posted 20/10/2010 at 21:25:13

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Don't get me wrong, Bill ? I appreciated their efforts, but at the end of the day, they just stuck their heads under the blankets and prayed it wouldn't happen... just like you and me.
James I'Anson
62   Posted 20/10/2010 at 21:37:38

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Leroy,
When is the bus due?
Colin Fitzpatrick
63   Posted 20/10/2010 at 21:37:05

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Drive away, 'Leroy'. Just a thought: perhaps it would help if you posted under your own name then you wouldn't have your posts removed and perhaps it would also help if you could be specific instead of just intimating that you "could blow huge fucken holes in your piece? then actually say nothing.

Here's hoping your knowledge is actually more comprehensive than you are showing with regard to KEIOC. The only fact I have gathered is that you haven't a clue about what they did or do.

Let's see all these holes then...
Leroy Brown
64   Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:07:25

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Colin: are you claiming KEIOC actually influenced the decision to kick Kirkby into touch???

I think I`m more likely to believe Kenwright tried to get on the pitch with his buddy at Wembley...
Colin Fitzpatrick
65   Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:23:40

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Like I expected ? nothing, from this and the other one. It's a shame that TW isn't impervious to the phoney posters. As previously stated, the thread concerns the veracity of Bill Kenwright and whether he is suitable as chairman and director of EFC, some posters appear preoccupied with making sure this subject isn't debated through false allegations and detraction.

Well done.
Leroy Brown
66   Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:31:50

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If TW was impervious to phoney posters, your article wouldn't have seen the light of day.

Answer the question if you can, forget names, it's points we are debating here: let's see who the phoney is.

You ask for somebody to challenge your points... then you're struck dumb at the first question!
Colin Fitzpatrick
67   Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:40:28

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Leroy, you're a shithouse hiding behind a false name who claimed he was able to drive a coach and horse through the points in my article; you're unable to do this as you simply wish to detract. I'm bored and everyone else is bored speaking to life's unfortunates. The first asked for references, he got them, then repeatedly went off topic in a bid to deflect. You're the same; I think we're all clear on who's right and who's a bellend.
Robert Daniels
68   Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:31:47

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Leroy,

What the fuck are you? You think Talkshite should go! But lay off fellow blues! Why do you think he should go?

Your posts appear childish, or more to get at people who clearly only want the best for Everton!

Excuse me, I have never read anything you have said on here that springs to mind but aren't you contradicting yourself by claiming BK has to go, then slamming a blue who started this article advocating the very thing you just said???

There is obviously history here... well Mr Brown, I'm not a member of Keioc, or in the BK appreciation society but I'll tell you this, I wish I had done more over DK than I did, and if it wasn't for Keioc,and some others, we would be in a shit stadium in Kirkby.

So, Leroy or whatever your real name is? Don't slag them off... in fact don't say anything, except thanks very much.

What did you do?They, and i mean Colin and the likes of him, have actualy got off their arses to SAVE US... geddit!

They and their like are more Everton legends than any No 9 to wear the blue shirt. They didn't get paid, they spent their own money and time to protect our club, and you come on here, afterwards, and slag these modern-day saviours!

DO ONE!
Leroy Brown
69   Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:51:24

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What's happening Col? Stalling?

Hoping the moderators will come along and save your face? You can't even answer the first question!

Here`s an easier one: where EFC already in serious financial decline long before BK came along?
Neil Adderley
70   Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:57:24

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Ha, ha.

Colin, they're as regular as clockwork. I fully expect the imminent resurrection of a certain Gerard 'madman' Madden....or maybe he has all ready reappeared.......

Anyway:

Leroy Brown
71   Posted 20/10/2010 at 23:01:46

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Ha Ha ? did you really respond to a question by telling me you're bored.

Oh the fucken irony!
Colin Fitzpatrick
72   Posted 20/10/2010 at 23:01:08

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Is that the coach and horses or where you blow "huge fucken holes in your piece"?

As you can read, then again maybe not, the level of debt under Bill Kenwright reached such a level that administrators were waiting to take over the running of the club, I could be wrong but this situation wasn't reached under anyone else.Today, the amount of debt is actually even higher, the measurement of debt against asset value is scandalous.

What's your point? The article is about Kenwright's inability to act as a director and a chairman for the good of the club; he's had decades to solve the problem, he hasn't and its now worse than ever. No offence but you're boring me. Where's the promised coach and horse? Is that is????

Laughable.

Leroy Brown
73   Posted 20/10/2010 at 23:17:47

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All in good time, Col, me old china plate. I want to address your points apart one by one, isn't that what you wanted?

So.... now that you`ve admitted BK inherited the spiraling debt ? as opposed to creating it ? and while your stalling on Question One ? Can you tell me which Chairman brought Big Dunc back from Newcastle?

Question One isn't going anywhere, btw...
Colin Fitzpatrick
74   Posted 20/10/2010 at 23:28:47

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Are you reading the same post? Admission of spiralling debt, where was this? If the best you can do is make things up, I feel sorry for you. Were the administrators waiting in the wings in '89? I can tell you who "brought" Ferguson back, I can also tell you who sat there whilst he was sold if you like but that doesn't "drive a coach and horse through the article" or blow "huge fucken holes in your piece".

Like I said, I was bored with your non-questions long ago, now if you're able to run this horse please do so, or do I have to sit here and wait for another retarded question? I have some paint to watch dry...

Leroy Brown
75   Posted 20/10/2010 at 23:42:26

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Alright Col lad, take it easy, for someone bored, you're not half getting agitated. Play nice.


I think anyone who`s reading this will accept you failed miserably to answer Question One ? so don't tell me I haven't got a clue when you don't have an answer.

But before I fire questions 4, 5 & 6 ? can we just establish you are getting your arse kicked so far?

I knew Kenwright was on the board when Duncan was sold, but in your article you blaimed/named only him ? didn't the then chairman make that call? And wasn't getting the big fella back one of the first things Kenwright did?

And when you ask "were the administrators waiting in the wings in 89?" ? do you not know? You the expert? ... and you say he had decades to "solve the problem" ? isn't that you admitting there was a problem for him to solve?
Colin Fitzpatrick
76   Posted 21/10/2010 at 00:27:11

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There are always problems for any board to solve; Kenwright, as chairman, has a particular way of delivering his solutions: Kings Dock, FSF, Kirkby ? most know what that is, you clearly don't.

Was that the coach and horse? Who was in charge, whose fault is this or that? Laughable, we're all wrong, Kenwright saved the club by bringing Ferguson back!

Glad you said good night, any further displays of your razor-like intellect and I'll be comatose!
Tom Hughes
77   Posted 21/10/2010 at 10:11:37

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Mr Brown,
I think you may be definitive proof that extra-terrestrial-life does exist...... since your complete lack of knowledge on the whole subject area can only be explained by you having just arrived from another universe.

For christsake man stop it, you're talking in riddles, and about nothing at all...... I mean, has a coach and horses ever struck an iceberg before?

Colin, has written 2 comprehensive articles, full with multiple references and related independent articles to back his points, and yet you seem blissfully unable to comment on anything within them..... but it doesn't really stop there. If you knew Colin, you would know that he and his colleagues could quite easily quote chapter and verse from every aspect of the Public Inquiry, and the various processes that led to and from it. Their evidence submitted at the public Inquiry dwarfed the club's and Tesco's in both quality and quantity terms, and was commended for this by all involved....... Colin could easily fill this site with articles on every stage of the process.

Yet in response all we have are almost mindless one-liners, that some are trying to pass off as valid debate when invariably saying nothing at all.

In answer to your so called first Question: DK died because it was an illfounded, ilconceived...... shit idea. All KEIOC did in simplest terms was to try to show everyone (ultimately including those at the inquiry), based on real evidence, how shit it really was. This involved thousands of unpaid manhours of research and discussion with all concerned parties..... at no point with heads under blankets where you were cowering Mr Brown. Unfortunately, as with the word "sorry", some people's egos don't allow them to say "thank you" or admit they were wrong. Thankfully, the likes of Colin Fitz showed far greater fortitude, and I know a great many people are very grateful for his and his colleagues immense efforts!! These articles, fantastic as they are, are only the "tip of that iceberg" for Colin.
Brian Waring
78   Posted 21/10/2010 at 19:25:30

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"Can we just establish you are getting your arse kicked so far"?

Talk about deluded! I would lay off the glue mate, it looks like it has scrambled your brain.
Dennis Stevens
79   Posted 21/10/2010 at 21:47:55

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Sometimes a browse through TW can be like a trip to a different dimension - hardly surprising as some of the posters seem to reside in a parallel universe!
Andy Crooks
80   Posted 21/10/2010 at 23:06:30

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Leroy, I made a comment in post number 29. If you can respond to it you will have my respect.
Christine Foster
81   Posted 22/10/2010 at 04:00:51

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Its incredibly frustrating to read some of the responses to what is clearly a well documented and well laid out case against the continued tenure of BK and indeed most of the board.

There has not been (can there be??) a detailed documented response because I doubt it exists, if it does then please lay it out with the supportive evidence of the same calibre as Colin has done.

What we have seen is sniping without the credibility of fact.

There are probably many who read this site still believe that DK was a missed opportunity and that it was torpedoed solely by KEIOC and those who dared to disbelieve what was being fed to them.

For what its worth, not much I know, but I think its great that BK is an Evertonian and a fan. But I do not think he has commercially made the right choices for this club and fails to do so on a continual basis. His lack of credibility in this area in my opinion overshadows his love for the club.

When DK was knocked back he should have stepped down as a matter of conscience but no, that would mean admiting he was wrong in his approach, his comments, his waste of money.

The fact that he, nor any or the other directors have been prepared to sell shares or dilute them to bring in investment is a damming indicment on how they believe the future management of the club will be carried out.

The club is not a charity yet we appear to be asking for donations from rich or famous as a means for investment without any stake in the club. Totally unrealistic.

Colin's piece clearly underlines where we have come from and why the present situation should not continue.

We have heard how difficult it is to attract investment / buyer from Mr 24/7 so (as was asked of BK and refused to answer) what would the club accept?
More to the point, what would he and the other directors accept as payment for their shares?
What terms would there be to the sale?
What type of investment are you seeking under what terms?

Really fucking easy questions but no one wants to say. Until thats done BK will continue to be vilified. Rightly so.
Karl Masters
82   Posted 22/10/2010 at 20:55:01

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Why is this Leroy Brown fella trying to make out that bringing back Ferguson was so good?

He was back for 6 years and got sent off nearly as many times as he scored a goal in that time. And he was injured repeatedly as well. With that clause in his contract ensuring he was paid as much as the highest earner he cost about £15m in those 6 years and we got very little in return.

This is a good example of Kenwright behaving like a fan rather than a Chairman. Thought with his heart, not his head and wasted millions.

Quite honestly, for me Kenwright has only ever done one really good thing - appoint Moyes. But he also fucked up the Kings Dock and tried to take us to Kirkby which was madness. Really, on that simplistic set of actions alone, nobody can say he deserves more than mild support.
Tony I'Anson
83   Posted 22/10/2010 at 21:29:45

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It would very much appear that there are some quite detailed facts and information and debate here. I get the impression that it's mainly all true, without any need for media sensationalism to sell papers.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
84   Posted 22/10/2010 at 22:37:21

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As much time as I've spent trying to stay abreast of the back stories behind the issues Colin addresses, I still remain puzzled by the response of the Kenwright supporters. As Christine notes, they are keen to point out how wrong Colin is, yet they don't produce anything remotely approaching a critical analysis that would hold a candle to what Colin wrote. Instead, it's abusive sniping, denigration and character assassination.

This character "Leroy Brown" is a case in point. Refuses to post using his real name, denigrates Colin's work with the bizarre claim that 99% of Evertonians were already aware of the factual content (really? then what's the beef?), then threatens to drive "a coach and horses" through it!!!

And then, to cap it all, he sidelines the entire thing by bringing up a typical pub argument about whether or not Keioc influenced the inquiry decision! Simply astounding stuff!

We've had similar abusive contributions from Tommy Gibbons that I refuse to post; I responded to him by requesting exactly the kind of supportive analysis that Christine alludes to. Nothing forthcoming so far. They claim that I wouldn't publish it, and cite the withheld posts as precedent, knowing all the while that I will not publish material that is abusive.

On reflection perhaps I should have let it through Tommy Gibbons's stuff just to show the pathetic level of response we were getting from some of Kenwright's self-proclaimed supporters. As I say, I've tried to understand their level of anger and annoyance but the only observation I can make is that it comes across as a form of religious zeal.

We are the infidels, daring to question Allah himself (Bill Kenwright); Bill is acting in the interest of the Club ? that is an article of faith (not something you can dissect and analyse through reasoned arguement). If you are an Evertonian, it is something you must believe... and the obvious corollary: if you are an unbeliever who dares to question any facet of the "Good News" then you are not a proper Evertonian and must therefore be abused.

So, come on, anyone still reading this(!); I challenge you to provide a factual non-abusive rebuttal to any of the issues Colin has written about. Preferably as an new article as I think this one is getting long in the tooth and has already slipped off the home page...
Tom Hughes
85   Posted 23/10/2010 at 10:06:18

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Michael,
I have to agree, it is almost a religious zeal that drives the characters you mention..... pure blind faith and no substance. The constant sniping and sidetracked referral to KEIOC giving the whole game away time after time. I can't help but think that most simply haven't got over their nirvanna (DK) being dismantled by KEIOC and exposed for what it was...... At the time of the vote they joyously proclaimed the Gospel according to Tesco/BK/KW, reaffirming their faith in every fabricated myth that supported it, only to see each one vanish as the reality was exposed. Their pride was hurt and a tiny minority still can't let it go. (Even though the club themselves dropped it at the very first opportunity) Perhaps the same people have to ask themselves what they put first, their interest in the club's future, or their own bruised egos. I won't hold my breath because bigots rarely turn, and often hide behind masks or pseudonyms to minimise their embarrassment!
Colin Fitzpatrick
86   Posted 23/10/2010 at 12:16:33

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Speaking as an infidel, I think many know the person masquerading as Leroy Brown, they may not know his name, they may not even know where he lives but for me there was more than a whiff of the antipodeans about him, the too familiar style, the need to talk big but deliver little; a shame he disappeared really, I was looking forward to that coach and horse!
The sum total of his rebuttal appears to be an admission of knowing nothing of KEIOC, which is fair enough but attempting to pass it off as knowledge is pathetic, that Kenwright was instrumental in bringing back Ferguson and an attempt to deflect responsibility by claiming we were in decline long before his [BK] boardroom involvement. I was looking forward to leading him down the decline path, the platform they give is great; I think many would welcome his explanation as to why, when the EPL was formed, we were one of the big teams, with total debt of less than £4m and assets aplenty whilst today we're an also ran with total debt approaching £80m and not a pot to piss in! We're in this situation because the person calling the shots isn't accountable. Liverpool may have had a serious heart attack; we're suffering from a degenerative disease. The real debate should surround what's to be done to remove the cloud and, ignoring more of the same old spin and PR shite this week, make sure the manager gets the support he deserves, the financial support he has earned.
Dennis Stevens
87   Posted 23/10/2010 at 22:51:09

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Colin, I think the coach & horse turned out to be a pony & trap!
Steve Smith
88   Posted 14/11/2010 at 01:58:39

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Having read through the comments on here and tried to ignore the arse-kissing of Colin's original article, I've got a couple of questions that deal with Colin's original "factually correct" article.

First one: the shadow director, factually correct or clutching at straws?

Second one: If the board should be removed, why does Colin think that J V Woods should be our new chairman? This is a man who, as far as I can tell, has stood steadfastly behind the current chairman and voted for everything that Colin {if he is/was a shareholder} would vote against.

Thirdly, As previously stated above by other posters, my impression is that Colin (aka KEIOC) tend to deal with some fact and some assumption {some of it missplaced, in my opinion}. Wouldn't it be better to just deal with what we absolutely know rather than placing a read between the lines element in these articles?

Fourthly: I wonder if Colin knows the implications and risks that a shadow director would undertake in a company the size of EFC, and if he thinks that such a role in such a high profile business could be kept secret?

Fifthly: If Blue Bill is holding out for the big payday, can somebody show me a list of all these investors who've been kb'd by the club because they didn't offer enough to buy Bill out?
Sixthly: If Everton had won a few trophies while BK was in charge, would anyone give a flying fuck who owned the club?

Seventhly: You all need to grow up, like it or not, we are the second club in this city. Yes, we are a big club, but actually nowhere near the size or appeal of the Shyte, it's something we have to live with and will only be resolved by twenty years of consistent success on the pitch. When you can find an investor who's prepared to make that commitment {they don't exist} then maybe we can all stand the doubling of ticket prices that comes with that "success".

Steve Smith
89   Posted 14/11/2010 at 02:30:56

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"Editor's Note: This piece below from Colin is a follow-up provided in response to the handful of critical comments made to his seminal article"

Two defintions of seminal, which one did you mean?

1 (formal) very important and having a strong influence on later developmentsa seminal work/article/studyHis book on social policy proved to be seminal.

2 [usually before noun] (technical) of or containing semen, seminal fluid

Steve Smith
90   Posted 14/11/2010 at 02:50:22

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"There are still Evertonians who admire and respect Bill Kenwright, David Moyes is one. As someone who has been firmly on the anti Kenwright side I challenge Richard Dodd or anyone else to write a defence as compelling as Colin's denouncement has been."

David Moyes says he wouldn't swap his chairman for anyone.

The Everton boss and chairman Bill Kenwright have enjoyed a close working relationship over the last eight-and-a-half years.

And at a time where club ownership is very much in focus after Liverpool's protracted takeover, Moyes believes having a man at the helm who is also a lifelong supporter is priceless.

"It isn't all about money," said Moyes after his side's 2-0 win over their city neighbours.

"Seamus Coleman, who's gone down the right and made the first goal, cost £60,000 from Ireland.

"If we all wanted football to be about money we wouldn't enjoy it as much because not everybody can have it.

"Am I jealous about that? I wouldn't swap my chairman for any owner from America or Saudi Arabia or wherever else you want to bring them from, because my chairman is a supporter.

"He backs his manager and he's behind me, which is really important for any manager at any club."

Thing is.......David Moyes is the Manager of our club, Colin Fitz isn't, oh, and by the way, before you think I'm defending Bill here, I'm not, he's made some big big mistakes during his tenure, but ultimately there is nobody else out there at the moment, we have to live with what we've got, and if that stays the same over the next two years, we'll be living without Davie Moyes as well.
Steve Smith
91   Posted 14/11/2010 at 03:04:18

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"We are the infidels, daring to question Allah himself (Bill Kenwright); Bill is acting in the interest of the Club ? that is an article of faith (not something you can dissect and analyse through reasoned arguement). If you are an Evertonian, it is something you must believe... and the obvious corollary: if you are an unbeliever who dares to question any facet of the "Good News" then you are not a proper Evertonian and must therefore be abused."

Sorry, just read this bit and must comment on it, Colin in particular has in the past, accused posters on this and other forums of " not being proper Evertonians" or "imposters" {and yes if you want me to, I can provide links to prove it, or should I use Colins line of the information is out there if you care to look?} and if you look through this thread, I think you might find Colin handing out some abuse, although that seems ok to you because you're desperate to kiss his arse.

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