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Jumpers for goalposts

By Larry Boner :  09/12/2010 :  Comments (61) :
The 2011 Asia Cup is to be held in Qatar; some good sides have qualified ? Australia, Japan to name but two. They have 5 stadiums currently, the one in Doha the largest capacity at 50,000.

I think that the take over of clubs by foreign billionaires is about to go tits up... the reason for this? Well, there are only so many players to go round, only so many competitions you can enter and win; the price of buying even a mediocre player is ludicrous, look at the Bebe situation at Man Utd. The contracts that are negotiated all have escape clauses, the wages are not only obscene, but are an insult to every working man...

Just ask yourself this: if all the nurses, waste operatives etc went on strike, the country would be at a standstill in a week. Footballers going on strike wouldn't make the slightest difference, so why do we pay these people so much? It's because of our own pursuit of success.

Instead of all the Sky money being ploughed into ground development, youth systems, grassroots football... it is disappearing away into offshore accounts.

Football supporters need to re-evaluate what exactly it is they want when they go to watch their team, throwing more and more money away on coaches and players has got 99% of the clubs to where they are today, teetering on the edge of an abyss.

How much pleasure have the supporters of FC Utd had at the relatively minor achievements of their fledgling club? Dare I say a lot more than the starstruck followers of Liverpool, Chelsea etc?

I have followed Everton for over 50 years, but sitting in the stands watching these multi-millionaires kick a ball ? well I\'m sorry, it\'s just not what I envisaged all those years ago in 1959 when I entered Goodison for the first time. It sickens me when I see badge kissing bastards like Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, and the rest, purely money orientated, while most of the people watching them struggle to even go to the game. You know the worst part, all these ex pros earning a fortune telling guys like me how the game should be played.

So we may get bought out, I don't really care, the game has gone from the ordinary Joe; let them have it, there will still be people like those at FC Utd and Chester who want to watch real football, played by real players and watched by real fans, eat a real meat pie, at a real price.

Reader Comments

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Anthony Hughes
1   Posted 09/12/2010 at 15:43:54

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Larry, I sympathise with your views, but why is watching garbage, lower league, poor quality players who couldn't trap a bag of cement or pass wind ? let alone a ball ? classed as real football with real players?

Surely watching the better quaility play better quality football is a more enjoyable experience than watching alehouse standard football week-in, week-out? Isn't the brilliance of a Messi, Ronaldo. Xavi etc... more entertaining than some yarddogs playing hoofball?

Shaun Brennan
2   Posted 09/12/2010 at 16:13:41

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Anthony, mate, Messi, Ronaldo. Xavi don't play for our club, let alone over here. Instead, we have over-paid, over-rated players who demand more and more from their current employers.

Too much power in the workers' hands perhaps?
Michael Kenrick
3   Posted 09/12/2010 at 16:10:20

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Some quaint ideas in there, Larry. None more so than the measure of a fair wage being the ability of a given sector to bring the country to its knees. You obviously lived through Thatcherism... but I guess very little of it impacted you. Where are those "poor" miners ? and the entire British mining industry now, eh?

I laugh every time I read one of these posts that contrasts the salaries earned by the players with those of the so-called "working man" struggling to buy a ticket, yet they are the ones at least in part behind the ongoing success of the Premier League. And the irony of it all going down in the City of Liverpool, of all places ? the quintessential home of failed socialism.

It's a modern world ? a failing capitalist world maybe ? and it's changing at pace. You keep up or you fall behind, It's as simple as that. FC Utd and their ilk are pure retrograde.
Mike Allison
4   Posted 09/12/2010 at 16:18:41

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"So why do we pay these people so much? It's because of our own pursuit of success."

Actually, it's because they generate money through people watching them. When you start paying £30 a ticket to watch a nurse or a binman, and the rights to watch them work on TV can be sold around the world for billions, then maybe you'll have a point. Jobs don't get paid on what they're 'worth' to society, we all know that, so why moan about it?

Anthony's point is also a valid one. I'd add to it by saying that I could easily have been a nurse or a binman if I'd chosen those career paths, it doesn't take an unattainable level of skill or ability. The top footballers have something we wish we had and they do something we want to imitate. I've never heard of 16 lads getting together of an evening to do some amateur nursing or waste disposal for an hour.
Nick Entwistle
5   Posted 09/12/2010 at 16:38:10

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I think, Mike, nurses have more qualifications than binmen. If I'm not mistaken, they just pick it up as they go along.
Stephen Kenny
6   Posted 09/12/2010 at 16:32:50

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Why do people always moan about what footballers earn? They earn what their worth in the inustry they work in. Nobody turns down a pay rise and nobody else is criticised for leaving a company when their contract of employment ends (Pienaar).

To make it to the top in football, you need god given talent, allied to hard work (relative) and some luck along the way. The very few who do make it, make the most of it. We would all do the same. It hearten's me that at least most of those who do make it come from a similar background to me, unlike those in the corridor's of power, old boys network etc.
Gavin Ramejkis
7   Posted 09/12/2010 at 16:30:51

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The irony of Larry's case is that the majority of Sky income is now from TV rights. Sadly the guys and gals on the terraces don't form the lion's share of a Premier League club's income and haven't done for several years, the margin is increasing if anything.

I suspect that boycotting games would have an impact on a club but not half as much as losing the TV cash cow which is membership of the EPL, hence the dirge which this league has gradually become.

Unfortunately, like everything else, the world has evolved and you have to join in the economic game if you want to even compete at the same level.
Jimmy Hacking
8   Posted 09/12/2010 at 17:03:50

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I don't understand how some of you are attempting to justify the money that top-flight players earn. All the usual bollocks is being wheeled out of course about talent getting a fair percentage of the income generated blah blah if it wasn't for these stars, no-one would be watching the Ppremier League... blah blah, just like any other business waffle drone.

These people are earning tens of thousands of pounds a week.. to KICK A SODDING BALL AROUND. They are not songwriters or movie producers or entrepeneurs. They are neanderthals with worse manners and less intelligence who are hoovering up all the money AND THEN SOME from the British game and shoving it down some strippers skirt or buying bloody Schooners in Monaco or keeping Pablo Escobar in moustache-combs.

What really makes me fume is when mediocre clubs like Everton and Villa are bullied into throwing money at their mediocre "stars" just to keep up with the big boys. It sickens me that the likes of Pienaar and Arteta think they are work 70 grand a week. I wouldn't pay bloody Messi that much.

This situation will only get worse too, until 6 or 7 big clubs collapse and then maybe the Premier League or Fifa (hmmm... yeah right) will wake up and realise that, yes, maybe something should be done...
Michael Kenrick
9   Posted 09/12/2010 at 17:21:02

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"I've never heard of 16 lads getting together of an evening to do some amateur nursing or waste disposal for an hour."

Brilliant illustration, Mr Allison!

Jimmy... hilarious post. Your opening reminds me of Billy Crystal in the Prince's Bride, denial is everything. It's not a question of justifying their wages... we all know the wedge players get is obscene. But everyone so far has proved utterly powerless to do anything about it ? in fact, the inflationary trend continues regardless: the disparities are actually getting bigger, not smaller.

And the thought of 6 or 7 big clubs collapsing... people have been coming on here, saying this is about to happen, for the past 10 years! Did you watch the Liverpool fiasco unfolding? Weren't they going to be the first??? Evertonians worldwide salivating in anticipation!!!

Pure poppycock.

Ged Simpson
10   Posted 09/12/2010 at 17:43:15

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Recognise that most fans of most clubs hate the modern game.

That is as much as a reality as your irritating "You keep up or you fall behind" mantra.

Where is it you live?

Oh yeah... the model of all societies.
Michael Kenrick
11   Posted 09/12/2010 at 17:57:48

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Ged, not sure why you would wanna bring my personal domicile into this discussion? A little off-topic, methinks... but you go on believing that anyone gives 100% buy-in to every aspect of the place, the country, the government, the politics of where they live, have at it.

Not a very good debating point, is it?
Ged Simpson
12   Posted 09/12/2010 at 18:07:41

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Fair point MK.

I was drifting into my own political / economic bigotry.

My apologies.
Tony I'Anson
13   Posted 09/12/2010 at 18:04:19

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Is it not the case in the UK that the minimum wage is £5-something? Employers are then free to pay their workers whatever they want, minus taxes and plus 11% employers NIC.

Now if some employer pays the staff more money than the business generates and the business goes tits up, is that not the fault of the business owner who has been an idiot for doing this?

Or maybe the employer has a trick up his sleeve to flog off the business for around 10 times he bought it for, pay off the mounting debts and spend the rest of his days unable to count the compound interest earned from said sale of business.
Christopher McCullough
14   Posted 09/12/2010 at 18:26:03

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Fuckin' right ? Capitalism is failing and here's a short summary of the reasons if anyone's interested;

Tim Jackson Lecture

I agree with your essential point, Larry. Professional football is an absurdity (the gap between our hopes and reality is the absurd) Nil Satis Nisi Optimum; Jesus.

Football is a working man's sport; there should be a collaborative relationship between fan and club. The quality of football should not be sacrificed, either. The fans are the club.

Dick Fearon
15   Posted 09/12/2010 at 20:10:53

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Only when we stop going to the live game en mass will wages and entrance fees return to sanity. The most voluable commentator cannot generate excitement when the arena is half empty. As with Basketball in the UK, Australia and other places, all the hype in the world does not make up for bums on seats and the atmosphere they create.

I believe that football crowds are currently at their peak and a slow decline is inevitable. When that happens, TV and its advertisers will look elsewhere. Football will then face its own financial meltdown.

The PL, in having priced itself out of the reach of many ordinary folk, has already moved some distance from its roots and shows no sign of returning to them. All is not lost, a glimmer of hope exists and must be seized upon.

TV companies and football authorities must demand that a percentage of the cash flow is spent on amenities and keeping entrance fees down. If that were to happen, even more bums would be sitting in better appointed seats.

Charles King
16   Posted 09/12/2010 at 21:03:52

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I do agree, Larry... but people keep watching. My own view is, even at its worst, there's no other sport to compete with footy.

I think the modern stuff is dire compared to the late 60s and 70s stuff. But equally, I remember back then the equivalent of old boys like us saying much the same about money and cheating etc.

I suspect as we get older, myths and legends are harder to accept, I mean... David Beckham???

Jay Harris
17   Posted 09/12/2010 at 21:46:24

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Dick, I don't think that would work. The TV rights to the Middle and Far East is what is driving these greedy agents and snotty nosed kids to the bling-bling lifestyle.

I don't mind the "golden boot" and "world's greatest player" getting a decent wedge but when every prick in the Premier League wants £50k a week or more and some of them play about 2 games a year, then it becomes a farce.

IMO the only thing that will stop it are the keyboard warriors with internet streaming but by that time, the heart and soul of stadium support will be ripped out and those teams that can't keep up with the elite will be destined for history.
Tony I'Anson
18   Posted 09/12/2010 at 22:12:05

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Here's a thought about the effect of a passionate and emotive crowd who help to create the magic and atmosphere at any ground, mostly Goodison, that is then sold around the globe ? fans are part of the product football that is prostituted across the digital airways and we actually are happy to pay for the priviledge.

Hold on a second. If I am going to turn up at the game (like an extra in a blockbuster movie), why shouldn't my "expenses" at least be covered (10 pints, merchandise, throat lozenges)... and as for paying to get in, they can piss off.

I want to be paid to turn up and add to the value of brand football, scream my arse off, and show my bare big fat Geordie belly in December; wear a stupid Pomey hat as a middle-aged bloke; vociferously tell the ref he's not too good; give abuse to the linesmen and generally help create the unforgettable experience to any novice that is an EPL match.

Without us paying for the priviledge of doing what we do, it would be shit. Why do you think SAF moaned about the prawn cocktail fans sitting behind the stained glass windows at Old Trafford?

I would be happy to turn up to Goodison and give my all for the minimum wage ? and I'm not even a member of the actors union called Equity.
Larry Boner
19   Posted 09/12/2010 at 22:10:23

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Michael, "I guess very little of it impacted on you." ? I worked in the Ford Halewood factory for 35 years, Press Shop, 3 shifts - a socialist and union man all my life. When the miners' strike was on my brother and me nearly got arrested coming back from Wembley after arguing with police on the train who were laughing at the "knobhead miners" whose efforts to maintain their communities were earning police a fortune in overtime.

I was there on the Right to Work marches, gave to the numerous collections for the miners families etc.

Looked on as Liverpool was torn to pieces by the right wingers on the Tory benches, the NHS steadily moved towards privatisation, the destruction of trade unionism.

I watched football though and the players were all British, they earned more than me, but not what in a week it would take a lifetime for me to earn ? and when they finished they usually went and got a fucking job.

I could afford to go the game, have a bite to eat, and hopefully see us on MotD.

Now, it's rip-off time, not only in this country, but in the sweatshops all over the world that make the boots, the shirts, the balls, that get sold for a fortune so these people can earn (sorry 'earn' is the wrong word) millions out of the misery of Third World children.

Don't tell me Thatcherism didn't impact on me or my generation, I was lucky, I kept my job and my home. It's about to impact on you and your generation, football will just sail through it, as it did in the eighties, but fewer and fewer people are getting taken in by it.

Graeme Hodgkinson
20   Posted 09/12/2010 at 22:35:39

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Forgive me if I'm missing something... but what was the relevence of the Asia Cup comment at the start of the post?!
Lee Courtliff
21   Posted 09/12/2010 at 22:33:53

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This going to sound like I am being clever but I promise I am not. Would we be having this conversation/debate if, 7 years ago Abramovich had bought Everton and we were the Champs of England and potentially the Champs of Europe?

I can honestly say I don't know how I would feel if we were bought tomorrow by foreign billionares but after, 7 years of almost non-stop success, I think we would all be quite happy. Apart from Tony Marsh.

And then we would be talking about how we were going to topple the Redshites 18 league titles and 5 European Cups. Would we care about money if we had had it for nearly a decade and won almost everything? I just don't know....

Jimmy Hacking
22   Posted 09/12/2010 at 22:44:27

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Michael #9

I never for a milisecond thought Liverpool FC would collapse. Nobody did.

If you believe the current model of every Premier League club making a loss every season (except Arsenal and Blackpool) is sustainable, then there's no point arguing with you.

We come fifth, we make a loss.
We make the FA cup final, we make a loss.
Good run in Europe, we make a loss.
Tiny squad, lowish wage-bill, we make a loss...

And you don't think trouble is brewing. Hmm...

And as for being powerless to do anything about it, how about this:

I don't plan to go to Goodison once all season for the first time since I was about 8 years old. Gonna watch Bolton v Everton (free ticket), Citeh v Everton in a coupla weeks (£38 quid, robbing bastards) and Manure V Everton (free ticket). Yes, all three amongst the home fans, does it matter? still a better atmosphere than among you lot at Goodison.

Also, I haven"t bought a replica shirt for at least ten years, and never spend a penny on our shite merchandise. I don't pay for Sky either, watch games illegally.

I guess you could call it a protest.

So, err, yeah. Take that, Premier League!

Larry Boner
23   Posted 09/12/2010 at 23:04:44

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Mr Allison, "Never heared of 16 lads getting together to do a bit of amateur nursing etc,"

Well I fucking have, there are thousands of people who volunteer their help for hospitals, nursing homes, cleaning pensioners homes every hour of the day, every day of the week, it's called having a social conscience, it's what keeps the NHS running and you know what, they do it for fuck all, because they see the need.

We live in a country that is one of the richest and most developed on earth, but relies on charity and volunteers to keep it running. But at the same time total idiots are being paid a fortune for something that has no importance.

Wake the fuck up.

Andrew James
24   Posted 09/12/2010 at 23:47:31

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Larry Boner,

I would expect you might have lived a life similar to Dixie outta Boys from the Blackstuff. Nevertheless, as a Southerner who only ever experienced the North through his Grandad's eyes, it seems to me that Thatcher smashed the unions and the working classes linked to them prior to Murdoch taking advantage of the masses along with the Lottery thus making us all the Proles of Nineteen Eighty Four whereby footie and gambling distract us so we don't notice what the government is up to.

Hang on, isn't that what Kenwright does every transfer window?

Pat Finegan
25   Posted 10/12/2010 at 02:12:08

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Footballers making so much money is simply about supply and demand. Clubs want the best players possible and there are a limited amount of great players (supply). The only way clubs have of attaining these players is to pay them the most money possible (demand). If we can afford to pay players £20,000 a week at the minimum, we have no choice but to do so.

Whenever clubs are competing for a great player they will give them a good, competitive salary. Each time there is competition for a player, the salary balloons a little bit. Over the course of a few years, it blows up completely. Eventually, they only way to satisfy the demand for good players is to give them ridiculous amounts of money. This added expense is passed on to the supporters and ticket prices go through the roof. Whether they deserve the money or not, it makes perfect economical sense.

Phil Hughes
26   Posted 10/12/2010 at 02:34:08

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Yes, footballers do earn crazy wages nowadays compared to the average guy on the street. But so do the likes of rockstars, movie stars and the like. They always have, but nobody moans about how much they earn.

I'm not on the side of footballers here but they entertain just like musicians and movie stars and probably perform more often? Football is on my mind more than movies or music and gives me more pleasure than the other two, so in that case, the modern day footballers earning that much money is kind of justified really.

There is hugh interest in the game, look how many pages in the papers are dedicated to it. It shows the interest level and what it means to people. If that's what they earn to entertain, then so be it.

Liu Weixian
27   Posted 10/12/2010 at 04:01:34

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It makes perfect economic sense only if the fans are seeing their wages increase proportionally to the players'. In an age when many people are enduring stagnancy in their wages or losing their jobs, the economic model of football cannot be sustained for long.

When the price of every damn thing goes up, your wage remains the same, and you have mouths to feed, I don't think you are going to want to spend over a hundred pounds to see Everton versus WBA.

It is obscene that mediocre footballers are paid tens of thousands of pounds EVERY WEEK for sitting on the bench and/or playing hoofball! It is disgraceful that teachers, nurses, and people from other professions who contribute a lot more to society, can't even make ends meet!

Christine Foster
28   Posted 10/12/2010 at 03:57:31

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Sort of breaks the rules to comment on Religion, Money or politics on a football site, but sadly they are usually all linked in someway or another. Most things come down to money or idealism.

But Larry is correct in saying that the country depends on the goodwill and efforts of those who give their time for free to help the sick, disabled and disadvantaged. Since the advent of Thatcherism, the world has changed, and not all for the good.

The pendulum swings to the left and to the right and the inequities grow more each day. The bigger the swing, the bigger the bounce...

Football HAS suffered, it HAS improved but I doubt it gives value for money. Supporting a Premier League club means the ability to see your club whereever in the world you are, not a meat pie and a pint and a walk back home down Scottie and pick up the Football Pink at 5:15pm to read the match reports..

The Premier League will evolve but not disappear. Its growth is paid for by fans all over the globe, not by supporters turning up for matches.

Football in the Premier league is a non-contact sport. It's bland and mostly without much inspiration. It is no longer a battle, a ding dong altercation, it's about speed, greed and self-gratification.

As fans, we live for the matches that our team battles and wins, sweetly or with an ability to out-fight the opposition. You know... passion.

It's a rare commodity, a rare game these days. That's why, for many of us "older" fans, we wonder if it's gone too far.

Just ask yourself this, as a child I would regularly stand on the landing in Portland Gardens and listen to the roars when Everton scored, some 3 miles away... when was the last time the crowd could be heard in such a way? And when did you last walk out of Goodison thrilled?

Tony I'Anson
29   Posted 10/12/2010 at 05:31:10

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Lee (21) - If I won the lottery it wouldn't change me at all!

Who else grits their teeth every time they see or hear the word "Thatcher" anywhere? I just can't help it.
Chris Perry
30   Posted 10/12/2010 at 08:44:33

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Larry Bonner. It's the Unions and the Militant attitude that has ruined the UK. We have ourselves to blame, no-one else. This site is about Everton FC, not your financial woes or anyone else's.
Laurie Hartley
31   Posted 10/12/2010 at 09:08:51

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Larry Boner, you've woken me up. Paul Simon - Sounds of Silence "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenemants halls and whispered in the sounds of silence". And perhaps even on Toffeeweb.
Larry Boner
32   Posted 10/12/2010 at 10:20:10

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Andrew @ 24

I see myself as Chrissie Todd, not Dixie. I have known a few Yossers, but the portrayal of the impact Thatcherism had on the ordinary people of Liverpool was startlingly accurate. Watched the whole series again recently and it is still as powerful and contemporary as it was when it was first aired.

As regards Simon and Garfunkel well, "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" The Boxer. Bit like Evertonians I suppose?

Marc Williams
33   Posted 10/12/2010 at 10:29:52

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Larry Boner (#19) ? I'm with you 100% fella, well said.

I guess that puts me in the quaint retrograde category eh!

Mike Allison
34   Posted 10/12/2010 at 11:24:17

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I don't see that #23 is relevant to what I said Larry but you seem really angry and have made a grab for the moral high ground so I don't see that I'll be able to explain my point to you any differently.

The economics of the situation dictate that 'skilled' people in two main fields (sports and entertainment) will make vast sums of money to do things that most people pay to do for fun. If your general argument is against the existence of economic reality then there's nowhere I can really go from here. Its simply far too simplistic to imagine any activity or job has an 'intrinsic value' in and of itself and that money should be the reward for that instrinsic value.

And Nick (#5) I actually started to get annoyed that you'd missed my point for a couple of seconds, think I'm having a slow day...

(#16) Charles King, you raise an interesting point. In 50 years time will people eulogise about Beckham the way they eulogise about George Best? Don't get me wrong, I'm not in a position to make a comparison between the two, but it makes you wonder. I suspect if you compare medals and various achievements then the limited Beckham comes out way on top, whereas Best is a guy who had the talent but squandered it. Did the old boys in the 60s think Best had nothing on Matthews and Finney and the like? I suspect they did, but would be interested to hear what you have to say.
KPR Williams
35   Posted 10/12/2010 at 10:35:45

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Tony #29

She is the root cause of everything that is shite about this country today.

Chris Perry
36   Posted 10/12/2010 at 13:53:24

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I'll say it again. The reason this country is on its knees is due to the unions destroying industry and the Labour party. Thatcher is not to blame, she quite rightly started taking on the unions and their outdated approaches. The likes of Kinnock and Scargill, and other union leaders are people you should point your finger at.
KPR Williams
37   Posted 10/12/2010 at 15:08:03

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I beg to differ Chris... massively
Chris Perry
38   Posted 10/12/2010 at 15:17:43

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KPR Williams.

I am sure you will, but Ii have seen first-hand the destruction that the unions have done to the manufacturing industry all across the country.

Look at the state of the country now after 12 years of labour-led misery and uncontrolled spending. Anyone can spend money ? just look at Moyes purchaases of Beattie, Krøldrup to name a few.
Larry Boner
39   Posted 10/12/2010 at 15:16:52

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Chris Perry ? without Trade Unions we would still have kids working up chimneys, Oh but you know this, don't you, it's going on right now, all over the world, kids' lives destroyed so that a Wayne Rooney or a Lionel Messi can live a life to which they are not entitled.

I don't know if you are an educated person, a Tory or whatever else, but look and learn, its all happening again, police on horseback riding at kids in the streets of London ? and don't give me the shite about they were rioting ? as one very important Civil Rights activist put it: "Riot is the language of the unheard."

The thing that gets me angry is I see the football pitch, the players and the likes of me, all party to what is going on.

KPR Williams
40   Posted 10/12/2010 at 15:28:18

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Boom and bust economics. I too know about the highs and lows, working in the manufacturing industry for 17 years, watching the dismantling of the unions to a point now where every right a worker had has been signed away in some agreement or other. The casualisation of the workforce so that anybody starting a job now is a temp who can be told at a moment's notice he isn't required anymore.

Everybody is credit-trapped and mortgaged up to the eyeballs so they can't afford to strike for what they deem fair rights because, if they do, they are vilified and made scapegoats.

The privatised industries are Absolute SHITE and banks can screw people to death over a few pounds and then announce a billion pounds profits...
God bless Maggie ? and Blair wasn't that far removed from her, if you ask me... John Smith he wasn't.

Mike Rourke
41   Posted 10/12/2010 at 15:41:45

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Oooh, quite political this thread. Well, in for a penny in for a pound.

I find socialists to be quite a bitter bunch in general.

Instead of worrying about what footballers, bankers, etc are earning and insisting that they are dragged down to your financial level, how about concentrating on what's on your plate and work out how to raise yourself to their level?

The folly of socialism, and how it actually keeps down the people it is supposed to be helping, is explained fantastically in this amazing Channel 4 programme, I strongly suggest you check it out.

KPR Williams
42   Posted 10/12/2010 at 15:46:04

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"I find socialists to be quite a bitter bunch in general."

You couldn't write it.
Jon Cox
43   Posted 10/12/2010 at 16:11:09

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KPR, Haven't seen the unions bleating that much about the influx of the EU and third world pushing down the wages of the British people. Where were they? Where are they now?

Or could it be that their silence over this fact would have the "elf & saftey" brigade moaning over the decibel level.

What many people fail to realise is that the three parties in troughminster are three heads of the same demon. Since the early sixties they have fooled the British people with the help of the media, that there was such a thing as left and right and middle in British politics.

We now know this of course because, as an example, none of the three parties will ever give us a vote on the corrupt, undemoncratic and totalitarian EU.

Since the early sixties there has been a salami sliced drip drip in the de-industrialising of the west. It started to gather pace under Heath. (Christ I wish he played for Everton)

When Cameron says, "We're all in it together" he doesn't mean us, he means the cabal who reside in scamminster.

I mean look at that great socialist Kinnock. I'll bet his bank account is a work of art !! What about the workers, don't make laugh they're all as bent as a nine-bob note. Where do you think Fifa learned how to do business?

As for the great Qatarians (Blackmore, Schenker, Eddie Van) what do you think would happen if they "invested" in our club and BK got caught with his hands in the till. I'll tell you what, he'd be picking his nose with his big toe!!!
Tony I'Anson
44   Posted 10/12/2010 at 17:25:06

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Chris (36) - the country is on its knees because Thatcher was a shop keepers daughter. You know retailers just buy stuff in as cheap as they can and sell for as much as they can. Fair enough. But they don't actually make anything.

That's why she couldn't get her thick, shopkeeper mentality, skull around investing in production, manufacturing, engineering etc. Too controlled by the Unions they were, so get rid of them. She decided to concentrate promoting service industries and free for all financial services where greed was good.

Now look around your desk, the clothes on your back, the PC in front of you, the car you drove to work in, the mobile phone you use every day, the pen you write with, and ask yourself what country was it made in. Certainly not Britain as retailers mainly just bring in stuff to rip-off Britain for us all to lap up. Thatcher and Thatcherism started all that. She is probably a big fan of Britain's most successful shop keeper who has never paid a penny in tax in this country in his Nelly puff.
Jon Cox
45   Posted 10/12/2010 at 17:23:37

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I didn't mean that workers were bent. Just Socialists like Neil (I love the Irish sea) Kinnock.
Jon Cox
46   Posted 10/12/2010 at 17:33:54

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Tony, you are right but, this is history and maybe the reason we are in the shit. But, why do you think Thatcher was stabbed in the back by her own party? It was the famous Brussels speech where she said that Europe was going to charge us to much for being a member and hence the rebate. Check out Francis Maud, Ken Clarke (Bilderbergers) Thatcher was a figurehead, they ruled the party then they rule it now. Camoron only became leader of said party because of his astute PR ability.

You are so right in your last paragraph. But wouldn't it be nice if WE were building things again, that were built to last and companies were made to sell us goods that were just thought of instead making us wait. Case in point. Nintendo 8 meg in the early nineties. Did you never ever wonder whether they already had the techno. ten years down the line, that was ready for sale with the launch of the Nintendo 8 meg.

Back to footy. So ok, say three quarters of the Prem is now owned by the Middle East. Then what? All the best players are on a stage and bidded for like an auction? How gross is that? No matter what anyone says, in our time of increasing austerity, the TV people will never NEVER be able to sell football if there are declining seats filled. But don't forget we are dealing with the media and just like Hollywood, they will produce full stadia at will with a bit of CGI.

For those who don't know, the name Hollywood was taken from the magician's wand which was used to create magic or illusion. It was wood, and could only be taken from the holly tree, therefore Hollywood. I'm into films of course and like everything else (like politics) I do my research.

Gavin Ramejkis
47   Posted 10/12/2010 at 17:43:03

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Tony (#44) hit the nail on the head, mate, Thatcher fucked this country good and proper and turned it from an industrial nation into a land of service industries.

Only trouble is that global economics means you can get some cheaper labour elsewhere so the call centre land she created has dwindled.

Chris, can you name me any major manufacturers in the UK? Can you name me major British motor manufacturers? Can you tell me who owns the little steel industry left in the country? Can you tell me who owns the majority of the electricity production? Can you tell me who supplies the country with gas? You sir are talking through an uneducated arsehole.
Jon Cox
48   Posted 10/12/2010 at 18:26:40

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Gavin, spot on pal. Like I said, it's the de-industrialisation of the West. It is about re-distribution of wealth. Everyone check out government cuts, then check out foriegn aid. And the rational for this is what?

Everyone thinks that when the Berlin wall came down in the early nineties that Communism had failed. Wrong! It was Communism getting beyond Berlin and infecting the West. This was worked out after the Second World War finished between the Russians and the Germans. It would be eventually be known as the EU.

Don't forget that the world at that time could never stomach right wing Nazism so they worked out that socisalism would be their best course of action. Russia was happy and Germany had just lost the war.

I could go on but my name (for the older Evertonians) is not Brian Englis.

I would never chat like this on any other website but people need to know history so that they can try to work out the future. It's funny how our British education have taken history out of the curriculum and replaced it with "Humanities". Thanks Nuliebor.

Mr Moyes, if you have read this thread then be assured that everyone on this thread is a critical thinking Evertonian no matter which way their politics sway. You would be well advised to read a lot of what these people write and just as a king does take these,our, my people, to the top of your council. Of course you could think for yourself, but we all have a league table to look at.
Christopher McCullough
49   Posted 10/12/2010 at 19:21:09

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John ? Thatherism, Reganism, Monaterism, Neoliberalism ? whatever you want to call it ? has caused more human suffering than Fascism.

Foreign aid to the poverty world is also a neoliberal tool. They are, first of all, loans which prevent autonomous development, and they most often come with demands such as corporate 'restructuring'. (I won't even mention colonialism.)

Our socio-economic model hasn't even led to prosperity, in its non monetary sense, in the rich world. Obesity, anxiety etc... Prosperity is much more than making money. That said, I agree with most of your points relating to the democratic deficit at home and in the EU.

You say that Socialism assimilated into the West since 1989. The American Century was founded, as usual upon war, but most effectively on 'the new deal', and the Marshall Plan ? state intervention, which we are still paying for in the UK. Similarly, Ireland will be paying British loans for the rest of this century. To say that cyclical systemic shocks to the economic system are not planned is ridiculous.
David Hallwood
50   Posted 10/12/2010 at 20:01:40

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Chris Perry #38, I am a trade unionist and I agree up to a point that the unions became destructive, but that was almost 30 years ago; however, the problem for the last 25 years, the Thatcher/Reagan doctrine on non-intervention and/or low or no regulation of the financial sector, has failed to deliver long-term stable prosperity, and has a lamentable record in supporting British Industry; the take over of Cadbury's is one example in a long, long list.

The problem is that markets chase profits ? and short-term profits at that, hence the move toward outsourcing, down-sizing, etc etc and now we are a service economy, whereas Germany still has a sizeable manufacturing base ? unions and all.

The Anglo-Saxon economies are run by hedge fund managers and Thatcher-Blair gave them a free reign to do just as they wished. Sadly, just like all greedy little boys, they over-indulged and that led to the unholy fuck up in 2008 and that looks like it will run and run.

The ?uncontrolled spending? you mention is actually a policy mechanism called quantative easing, where a government floods the capital markets with almost free cash to mop up the financial markets' exposure, or toxic debt, in an effort to combat the aforementioned Holy fuck up.

Although it could be argued that the labour government did increase public spending, it did little to reverse the pay inequalities that have appeared since Thatcher came to power and positively encouraged the captains of industry paying themselves ludicrous amounts of money and boasting to anyone within earshot that they don?t pay a penny in tax ? some socialists. But then again, Chris, you?re probably slightly to the right of Genghis Kahn.

Blimey what?s happened to the footy? ?ere Marshy, put it on me ?ead son.

Rob Hollis
51   Posted 10/12/2010 at 21:37:22

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The unions in the 70s were just as screwed up as any power-mad politician. You do have to make a profit to keep something afloat.

Having said that, you are absolutely right. The western world is MAD. FC United and their ilk are the only people with balls. Premier League players are GROSSLY overpaid and anyone who disagrees is crazy.

We go to watch a team called Everton but, if we sat back and thought about the fact that our clubs totter on the brink of extinction, propped up by Sky to pay multi-millionaires to serve up an indifferent product, then we have to admit that it is completely divorced from reality. Not the Everton we knew.

Michael, you are really unfair to Larry because there is a difference between a fair profit and the bloody madness we all subscribe to. Football is symptomatic of the complete lack of morality within our economy and I am quite happy with my own economic lot so I don't say that because I am jealous and an inverted snob.

The only value the UK has had since Thatcher is the value of money. And what bollocks that turned out to be.
Leon Perrin
52   Posted 10/12/2010 at 21:52:45

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Mike @ 34

Certainly the old boys defended their heroes' ability compared to George Best et al, my recollection is they accepted the skills of both eras, whereas I don't rate the likes of Beckham.

Their common theme was the robustness of players pre- and post-war, who played in boots akin to hobnail boots with footballs like bricks when wet, with laces in them.

Add in the fact they could have a drink with the players, and many had jobs to supplement their footballers' wages, I guess it was just the lifestyle rather than ability they crticized.

Derek Thomas
53   Posted 11/12/2010 at 03:32:11

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Socialists are born not made.

1 capitalist is worth 20 socialists.

Those who 'know', need no explanation.

Politics and football eh... not linked at all it seems.

Verrry interestink, but stupid.

More to the point, will the only change from last week's team be Beckford for Saha? And will all and sundry start to EARN their mega-bucks.
Dick Fearon
54   Posted 11/12/2010 at 07:37:08

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Larry #19 ? Press shop eh', you were lucky! I'm ex-Body in White production line.
Tony I'Anson
55   Posted 11/12/2010 at 08:07:17

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Mike (41) ? What you say sounds good on paper and the fortunate middle classes end up just about getting by through working all the hours under the sun. But the "I'm All Right Jack" attitude has Thatcherism written all over it. I couldn't give two hoots what anyone else earns, but I cannot stand piss-takers supposedly playing by the rules, yet are embroiled in all kinds of creative accounting to bypass the laws everyone else is supposed to be playing by. It's not really creative accounting, it's fraud ? plain and simple.

Derek (53), considering what we've just witnessed at the World Cup bid, politics and football are intrinsically linked. Even our PM was bending over forwards to try and win the bid.

By the way, what is the ratio on the numbers of capitalists with a social conscience? The types who work hard and play by the rules set down before them by the laws of the land... keep their business in their own name... pay taxes.... and don't wear red braces. Consider money a medium of exchange, not a product itself... etc

Beckford to start.
KPR Williams
56   Posted 11/12/2010 at 10:02:28

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Jon Cox

As I said in my post, the unions are pretty much pointless in manufacturing now. My observations of the last 10 years I spent in car manufacture, the unions have signed up to every agreement placed before them. Stewards spend 40 hrs a week in meetings about fuck all, shop stewards ditto. They don't get their hands dirty any more. They are more management than the class they represent.

As far as I could see, half the management were ex-union and quite often they were the worst of the lot. If the management want something, they threaten closure and everybody, on the say-so of the union that represents them, gets in line. There is a constant cloud hanging over you.

As soon as your job is assured for another 5 years because you have signed a new agreement to lose your shift rate, your bonus or whatever other right the workforce went out on strike for 20 or 30 years ago, to remain competitive. When I started in the plant, there was over 8,000 working there; 17 years later, there was 2,000 and there were more cars going out the gate and closure was imminent.

It's not a job anymore ? it's a fuckin regime...

Laurie Hartley
57   Posted 11/12/2010 at 10:09:42

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Derek @ 53
"Socialists are born not made" - Could be wrong there mate ; check this bloke out:
"1 capitalist is worth 20 socialists" - another question mark - If you checked Larry Boner's personal wealth say against one of the Rothchilds I reckon it would be higher ratio than 1:20 - but then again I suppose it depends on what your measure of a man is. Please explain.

Larry - the only problem with using jumpers for goal post is that the ball can't bounce off them. Great post and well done Michael K for not shutting it down.
Beckford to start (Definitely not Anichebe)

Chris Perry
58   Posted 11/12/2010 at 17:55:58

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Gavin Ramejkis ? uneducated? I probably have more academic qualifications than you and your entire family. I run a medium-sized manufacturing company. You can spout your shite all day. Labour and the unions destroyed manufacturing.
Larry Boner
59   Posted 11/12/2010 at 19:35:47

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I did not want to add anymore to this most diverse of threads but, Chris Perry, I feel sorry for you mate; you are probably a hard working guy who has been taken in by the shite spouted from the Murdoch media... you know, the likes of Goebels, who tried to eliminate a group of people because of their religious beliefs.

There are no political parties, there are only the faceless people that you never see on the newsreels, the guys who decide when Thatcher has run her course, when Kennedy is getting too big for his boots, when Scargill needs to be brought down to earth, when it is time for a black president in the USA, when Martin Luther King or Malcom X or Diana, or anyone who moves away from the dictated line has served their useful purpose and is succinctly destroyed.

Wake up, mate, "when there was no-one left they came for me" ? Can you grasp it, or do you wait till they are knocking on your door ?

Larry Boner
60   Posted 11/12/2010 at 20:06:44

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Dick Fearon, walked across to the BiW a few times to check out quality concerns, made me shake with fear mate, which is probably where you got your name from.

The Trim though, now that was scary, there is no way I could have done that ducking and diving.

Laurie Hartley
61   Posted 12/12/2010 at 07:02:25

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Larry said, "So why do we pay these people so much? It's because of our own pursuit of success".

For those who have ears to hear ? let them hear.

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