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My Xmas Is Ruined!

By Tony Marsh :  14/12/2010 :  Comments (66) :
Last week, I said I would try to drown myself in booze if Everton surrendered a point to the Pie Eaters. Well surrender they did. I managed to clamber out of that vat of Jack Daniels some time early Monday morning in a state of despair.

It's just not on is it? No need for Scrooge or The Grinch to ruin Chrimbo for us when we've got David Moyes and Bill Kenwright to do it. Michael Kenrick is right ? the season isn't over yet... but Xmas most definetly is.

Forget dried up Turkey and soggy roasties... Forget lumpy gravy and under-cooked sprouts... Forget the Yardley Gold aftershave or the socks and undies from the street trader in town... Forget the warm Snowballs made with cheap flat Lemonade... NO ? If you really want a Crappy Christmas, go and watch the Blues in December. It's a cert to do the job for you.

I can honestly say that Saturday's inept and insipid display was the straw the broke Santa's back. It's only the brave and the foolish who would want to go back for more of that. I am so numb by it all that I can hardly bring myself to be angry any more. Resigned myself to it years ago.

December 11th should be known as Black Saturday from now on. It surely is the darkest day in the club's recent history. I remember when I was a young lad (cough cough!) and Liverpool beat us 5-0 at Goodison Park...Back then, I didn't think it got any worse. Well, it does.

Back in the early 1980s Liverpool were the best team in Europe by a mile and we were crap like always, so the score that day was only a reflection in the gulf in class between us. What's happening now in the present is sickening to say the least. If Bill Kenwright is such a big Evertonian, like he claims he is, why can't he recognise what's going on at this club?

We can all see the life draining away from the fans and players. We can all see the manager retreating further in to his shell like a Tortoise being maulled by a Pit Bull. We can all feel the lack of anything positive to feed off coming from the club.

We all understand that Moyes has ran out of steam and ideas. In fact, Moyes never had many ideas to begin with. It's all "get out there and shut up shop". Kenwright on the other hand is oblivious to these things and thinks Moyes is wonderful.

When I asked my 11-year-old lad what player's name he wanted on his footy kit this Xmas, he said he didn't want another Everton kit because we are crap... Another X-Box game it is then!

Do you know what ? I don't blame the kids for turning their backs on us either. We can be good on the Xbox sometimes... but in real life we suck arse bigtime.

I am ashamed to say it but I don't give a toss any more. I have been driven to the edge and I'm ready to jump. There's nothing to talk about anymore as regards to football. Fuck all happens out on the pitch... It's grim and depressing and I don't like it.

Ken and the others who send in match reports need a fucking medal because all I can do is swear and slag people off when I watch that crap. I have been pointing out the flaws in Moyes for years now. I reckon he has had a very good run and he is way past his sell-by date. Stick him on the fucking Whoops counter for fuck's sake. He is like a packet of boiled ham that's on the turn.

This isn't Moyes bashing like many of you seem to think.I have done enough Moyes bashing to last a lifetime. No, this is real concern for the club and it's future from a fan who has been through it all with Everton FC.

How much more of this can one man possibly take? Well, you tell me... because you're living this shit with me. Merry Christmas.... I don't think so ? unless Billy K gives me the ultimate Chrimbo gift... P45 for the Grinch.

Reader Comments

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Derek Thomas
1   Posted 15/12/2010 at 06:44:28

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I'll say it for some, if you want to jump then jump, there thats got the most obvious sarcastic comment out of the way.

Then there's the others, who, whatever the straw poll finally comes up with are starting to agree with most if not all you say.

Then there's the 'other' others who won't see what you are going on about. First among equals or should that be last among something very alliterative...losers, luney?. Richard -I make Mavis from Corrie look decisive Dodd who can't make up his mind if he really is waverer.

What don't you see?? It's not right, there is no play bad but get a result.
Yes I know it's a business and it's a money orientated business, what?apart from monkey and funny types of business aren't.

But it is first and formost part of the ENTERTAINMENT business...but we aren't getting any.

We turn up out of habit and loyalty, because it's what we do, it's where we go.

Did you see the gaps last week. Yes it's Christmas, but people are starting to vote with their wallets, short term one game medium term a season ticket. Long term no young supporters and Everton may go the way of most of the pastimes my Grandad enjoyed all those old fashioned things, dominos, crib, bowls,. eg no longer mainstream,

When was the last time you came out of the ground on a semi regular basis, thinking that was worth the money.

Answer that those who are for the status quo
Alan Clarke
2   Posted 15/12/2010 at 07:31:08

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I'm a season ticket holder. I'm not arsed going to watch Moyes' team anymore. There are still too many fans that are happy with the state Everton are in for anything to change. I think the fact that only a few seem to give a shit is what disappoints me most.

Remember when we drew with Coventry to stay up and we stormed the pitch to demand Johnson out? I just can't imagine the fans taking any action now. For that reason, I'm out.
Andy Crooks
3   Posted 15/12/2010 at 08:17:50

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Tony, I think your article reflects the mood of many Evertonians now. Anger has passed and there is a grim helpless despondancy. These are dark days indeed.. What can we do?
Mike Price
4   Posted 15/12/2010 at 08:03:15

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Hiya Tony
I've not posted for years now because I saw the emperor naked a long time ago! I never rated Moyes..I called him the PE teacher years ago...always picks the keeners who take down the nets like your Nevilles, Osmans or Hibberts, but never really recognised skill and pace.His 'lets hold onto a point and hope' mentality, rabbit in headlight non-tactics,and his horrific transfer market record shows this...where's the pace and skill in this side? People say Arteta and Cahill. Cahill was his lucky gem, he didn't really fancy Arteta, nearly lost him, and only an injury and no-one else being interested led to his signing. Beattie, record fee no pace and no skill; Johnson...pace but no skill whatsoever. Fellaini, slow as a carthorse, but tall.Don't even start on Bily!
I could go on about his 'tactics', his lucky spells, where the team picked itself etc, but I said all that years ago. I reached the point where I couldn't be bothered with Moyes anymore and haven't commented for years. I said I wouldn't until he was gone, but I still love Everton Football Club and always will, so I still watch every match, check out the websites and prefer Evertonians to any other people I meet....justified or not!! It does finally seem that after way too much time, more Blues are finally recognising that Moyes is the most over-rated manager in England. Hopefully, this wave will become a tsunami and he will be forced out. I want my club back.
Tony J Williams
5   Posted 15/12/2010 at 08:54:18

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Black Saturday? Are you seriously trying to say that the performance on Saturday was anywhere near as bad as last seasons 1-0 at their gaff? That was one of the worst displays by an Everton team.

Saturday we battered them but failed to score, Cahill's shot going the other way and it would have been 3-4 nil at the end.

Black Saturady? You really do have a selective memory don't you?

And I find it extremely hard to believe that you don't give a toss anymore. If you didn't you wouldn't have spent time typing that post or swearing in it.

Yes there was less swearing than usual but you are like the rest of us Tony, no matter what happens you will always come back to Everton. It's an addiction that only a very few of us managed to break.

Just think about though, if you "do one" and then we get a new manager and start doing well again. If you come back, wouldn't that be the very deffinition of a "glory hunting fan"? Food for thought that.
Richard Dodd
6   Posted 15/12/2010 at 09:14:03

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Nothing compares to THAT night at Wigan where even I was ashamed at what was served up. On the other hand, I thought we played reasonably well last Saturday and could easily have won 4-0.
Take it as a given that one of our strikers will suddenly find his touch ? and then see them go. Absolutely nothing wrong with Moyes's Everton that a couple of good wins won`t put right ? although cutting out the fancy stuff might help!
Dick Fearon
7   Posted 15/12/2010 at 09:11:12

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I sympathise with you, Tony, comparing the age of your son with my youngest, who is nearly 50, I have been through an Evertonian hell a lot more times than yourself. On the other hand, I probably have more memories of good times to sustain me through the current rubbish.

A peek at our remaining games could put a damper on any die hard Evertonian. If what remains of the season is anything like what has already happened, we will up to our necks in the brown stuff.

Some may say we are already on that slippery slope. Our main hope for change is Cahill going to the Asian games. I make no apology for suggesting that his departure could be a catalyst for improvement. Week by week, our situation is becoming more perilous with less games to mount a recovery.

A fair appraisal of our players shows them to be at least as good if not better than most of their peers in the top half of the division ? so where and why have we gone so horribly wrong?

The finger of suspicion must firmly point at Moyes. Despite conclusive proof that 4-5-1 has been a complete failure, he resolutely sticks to it through thick and mostly thin. He will not accept even the slightest possibility that his tactics, team selection, timing and deployment of substitutes or even training methods might in any way have contributed to the situation.

Game after dismal game, he trots out excuses but never genuine reasons. His recent eulogizing of Saha is a sure sign that no changes are in the offing. I am convinced that only catastrophic events could force him change course.

Cahill going to the Asian Cup is such an event. Tim?s bravery, extra ordinary box-to-box stamina, remarkable heading ability and goals have played a major part in Manager of the Month awards won by Moyes. Those goals have rescued Moyes's credibility as a manager and tactical nincompoop.

The Asian Cup will force Moyes to take a cold hard look at where he has gone wrong and hopefully drive home that what we have been doing to date is unacceptable.

That is why I am glad the Asian Cup takes place in January. When Tim returns, there will be just enough remaining games for him to help drag us from the relegation zone and possible oblivion.

Phil Bellis
8   Posted 15/12/2010 at 09:27:34

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The fans around my spec in the Lower Gwladys have been ground down by what's happening
Anger has turned to couldn't be arsed and that's the worrying thing; some, including my lad, say they're not coming on Boxing Day - not worth the effort
The exiting crowd on the walk down to County Rd were gloomy and quiet
We need a spark from somewhere - there's a sense of we've got nothing or no-one to change a game, a lost cause already
Even the "banter" with kopite acquaintances has stopped
Michael Evans
9   Posted 15/12/2010 at 09:35:48

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Richard@6 "Cutting out the fancy stuff might help !"

Couldn't agree more.

I'm tired of David "Mr Entertainment" Moyes's cavalier attitude to how football should be played.

How many times has he shown tactical naivety by instructing his sides to go for the second, third or even fourth goal when they could have sat on a 1-0 lead ?

Why does he give his sides a "license to play", to express their skills with pace and passion ? Why must he constantly eulogize that football is "the beautiful game" ?

Well I've had enough.

We need a manager who is dour. Someone who realises that 4-5-1 is the percentage,play it safe, way to go.

Someone who is fearful of the opposition and is able to pass on those fears to his players so that they become inhibited and frightened to try any "fancy stuff".

Sigh ... but where could you find a man like that for the paltry salary we could offer him ?

Tommy Coleman
10   Posted 15/12/2010 at 10:00:59

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Ha Ha, well said Michael Evans.

I refuse to watch us now as all the one-touch football gets on my tits.
Chris Fisher
11   Posted 15/12/2010 at 10:45:38

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No it's not!! Wins against City, Birmingham and West Ham and we'll all have the best Christmas ever, don't deny it!

I really do think that if he is given a proper chance then Vaughan could turn our season around, if Moyes is just a bit brave and throws him in I think he will respond to that. If he starts Saha agains City though, then i'll cry.

You have to learn from your mistakes eventually; Saha is a striker and he isn't scoring goals, that is all you are required to do and if you don't do it then you are useless to the team. No matter what you do on the training pitch!!!

James Stewart
12   Posted 15/12/2010 at 10:54:08

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Mike Price ? spot on!
Kevin Tully
13   Posted 15/12/2010 at 10:35:28

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It is groundhog day at Goodison these days. I know our tactics, I know when the subs will come, I know what positions Moyes will change when we are losing.

Now if I know exactly what is going to happen, how easy must this be for other managers ?

I am not taking all this net spend bollocks anymore either. Go through our side, there are plenty of expensive players in the team. Jagielka, Baines Arteta, Fellaini, Cahill, Pienaar, Rodwell, there's over £100million worth of talent for starters.

Totally fucking depressed.
Sam Hoare
14   Posted 15/12/2010 at 11:07:17

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Jesus guys.

I know its been pretty dire of late. But we've got some pretty decent players. We've been pretty unlucky in the last two games not to pick up 4 or 6 points. And we are only 4 points of 8th with over half a season to play.

We've been in worse places than this!!

I'm an optimist but this thread had even me reaching for the sawn off shotgun.
Nick Entwistle
15   Posted 15/12/2010 at 11:35:28

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You never hear from TM when times are good, now we're having a poor season, here he is. We know this season is a write-off unless a miraculous repeat of last season's run in, but I'm not going to get depressed about it. Oh no! Is that me accepting this rubbish?
Jimmy Hacking
16   Posted 15/12/2010 at 11:46:16

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I agree with Nick 100%. Some people just LOVE to complain. In a perverse sort of way, this poor half a season is exactly the Christmas pressie a full-time whinger would want.

I hope for your sake we get relegated, Tony, then you'll have a Happy New Year as well.
Chris Sillett
17   Posted 15/12/2010 at 11:38:02

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Don't get me wrong, I'm just as frustrated and depressed with Everton at the moment as everyone else; however, I don't think this is the worst it has been in the last 15 years.

NOTHING can compare to the 1997-98 or 2000-01 seasons. Remember being told by Peter Johnson that Joe Royle's replacement would be a 'pleasant surprise' and being linked with Bobby Robson and Johan Cruyff only for Howard Kendall to come back?

Remember getting beat 3-0 by Tranmere at home in the FA Cup? Now THAT'S what you call 'Black Saturday'.
Marcus Kendall
18   Posted 15/12/2010 at 12:49:37

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What annoys me is the media and the fans of other clubs who think Moyes is producing results with average players. I look at our squad and I feel we should only finish below Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham and Man City. Us, Liverpool and Aston Villa should be vying for 6th place yet you have the likes of Bolton 8 points ahead of us. That's unacceptable.

It tells me that the media know nothing as the thing we have in common with Villa and Liverpool is we all have average/poor managers. Bolton on the other hand have a good-un.
Phil Bellis
19   Posted 15/12/2010 at 12:53:27

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C'mon lads - be fair
This season's been a bit like being promised something special for Christmas then opening your present and finding a £20 B & Q voucher
KPR Williams
20   Posted 15/12/2010 at 13:01:24

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About this time 2 or 3 seasons ago Phil Brown was the best thing since sliced bread...

Where is he now?

Flash in pan.
Noel Lynam
21   Posted 15/12/2010 at 13:08:04

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Tony, is it any wonder your kid thinks Everton are crap when he has probably had you drilling it into him for the last eight and a half years that Moyes has been around.
Nelaj Behajiha
22   Posted 15/12/2010 at 13:11:50

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Birmingham away, 2004, when we lost 3-0, was appalling.
Chris Keightley
23   Posted 15/12/2010 at 13:00:30

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What no-one has really touched upon and is so fucking in front of your blue-tinted eyes (mentioning no names) is that we could genuinely get relegated ? this could happen!

So, if you don't get up off your arses and shout from every section of the ground that you are displeased (I did Saturday and got a tirade of abuse from a couple of old timers)... you're never too big to go down and the prem take no prisoners; not enough points and you're down ? simples.

THIS COULD HAPPEN... EVERTON NEEDS YOU!!! [....pointy finger....]

Chris Keightley
24   Posted 15/12/2010 at 13:21:54

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Against Brentford in the Carling Cup this year: High expectations of a good run... beaten by the better team... fucking embarrassing. The first game the wife came with me, and I quote "When you were at school did the kids pick on you for supporting them?"
"No, course not, darling..."
"Well, I would've ? they are shocking."
Craig Taylor
25   Posted 15/12/2010 at 13:59:16

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Strangely, I find myself agreeing with a lot you say, Tony... that in itself proves how bad it is.

A lot of my feelings are brought out of the expectations I had for the season, which were on a level with Moyes.

Prehaps I have just seen the light now, or taken off the blinkers but I do still think Kenwright must be the first to go.

If Moyes was to go today, Tony, who would you like to see replace him? There would be plenty wanting his salary, but I am not sure about the transfer kitty! But that aside who would you like to see (being realistic!).
Tony Marsh
26   Posted 15/12/2010 at 15:09:43

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Craig, right now, mate, I would take anyone who wanted the job. We all understand the reality of the situation but Moyes is killing us and each season resembles the last.

Other clubs have brought in inexperienced managers as far as Premier League football is concerned and they are doing a lot better than us.

Blackpool, West Brom, Bolton... so it can be done. If the Grinch stays then we are fucked and that's the truth of the matter.
GJ Butler
27   Posted 15/12/2010 at 15:20:15

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A little bit OTT.

How many here had a few quid on a top four finish? Hand up? There was a fair few posting pre-season that this was the year. Well, it's the same squad.

It's also the same squad that went on a run of 2 defeats in 20+ games at the start of 2010.

We're out of form and we're out of luck, both of which can change in an instance.

Dark days? I might agree with you come May, but right now, I don't think so.
Guy Wilkinson
28   Posted 15/12/2010 at 15:22:33

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Moyes is sucking the life out of my club
Dave Wilson
29   Posted 15/12/2010 at 15:20:33

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I now truly believe that Moyes's teams will ALWAYS start badly but I also believe they will ALWAYS put a run together. The bad times won't take us to the bottom and the "good" times won't take us to dizzy heights. Hardly roller-coaster excitement, but not worth getting out onto the nearest window ledge about.

Managers / Chairmen come and go, but as a blue you are in it for the long haul... whether you like it or not.

Fuck all this "who will be the successor" shite ? We are stuck with the current regime and every Evertonian should do what he feels will help the cause; some feel its better to kick up fuck... others will feel that it only makes matters worse ? I was sickened by Big Vic turning his nose up at the latest offer, but I'm at a loss to understand how booing him ONTO the pitch helps the situation... but that's just my opinion.

Andy Crooks: don't underestimate the love Evertonians feel for their club. You`ll still be checking the results on your deathbed. The match-goers and the worldwide lifelongs will stick by their team no matter what.

The next five games will define our season and I expect every away ticket to be sold and bumper crowds for the home games. We support Everton, not individuals, the current regime are not only aware of this... they fucken count on it.
Tony Hughes
30   Posted 15/12/2010 at 16:27:29

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Funny how the Moyes lovers love quoting the Tranmere game as our darkest day whilst very conveniently overlooking the scandalous results he has presided over!!

Arsenal 0-7 and 1-6 (our heaviest home defeat in half a century!) Bolton 0-4... Steaua Bucharest 1-5 and and for good measure newly promoted mighty WBA 0-4!!!

Tony Cheek
31   Posted 15/12/2010 at 16:17:01

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The thing is, us who can't get to games week-in-, week-out, cannot do a thing about it. Of course we can kick the dog and slag the missus off. But that doesn't count for nothing. It's only the supporters at the game that can really get the message home.

How about some "Moyes Out" banners.... some vocal dissaproval that really hits home. Or even turn your backs (first 15 min)... difficult that one, especially if he picks Saha on Monday!!

Dave Wilson
32   Posted 15/12/2010 at 16:30:53

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Tony Marsh;

Not a trick question or a a set up, just genuine curiosity.

Do you think Blackburn, West Brom or Bolton will finish above us this season?
Andy Codling
33   Posted 15/12/2010 at 17:06:31

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@ Tony Cheek, to be honest, it's more entertaining turning your back and looking at the bird's tits, who sits two rows behind, rather than watch the tits on the pitch
Ray Said
34   Posted 15/12/2010 at 16:51:34

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Moyes is like a vampire hanging on the neck of the team and sucking out any fire or life. He is a master of spreading apathy and the team is expiring right in front of our eyes. Just have a look next time we get a throw, he can't even trust the players to take a throw without him telling them who to throw it to. He stands there with his stupid little pad and his stupid little doodles, well if he has the answer on his pad he isn't sharing it with the players based on results.

I wouldn't mind that so much if he was an inspired puppet master but he is so far from that. Mike (4) had it pegged when he called him the PE teacher.

The apathy is the most dispiriting thing to see. I have posted here before that I recall the venom directed at Gordon Lee and the fan protests at the crap we were watching ? well I would watch Lee's team over this mob any day! At least he set them out to have a go at the opposition when they came to Goodison. Moyes treats EVERY OPPONENT as if they are Barcalona. FFS, let's have a go at our own ground!

Santa, please bring either Mr Moyes or Mr Kenwright a working pair of testicles. If Moyes gets them then he may find a bit of fight and take it to the opponent. If Kenwright gets them, then he may just put a P45 in Moyes's top pocket and say, "Thanks but it's just not good enough for this club, we expect better than that matey."

Ray Said
35   Posted 15/12/2010 at 17:14:37

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Tony Cheek (30) the Inter fans did a 'turn your back ' protest against Hector Cuper. The hard core did it for all game and the next planned protest was for a full match boycott where the fans would assemble at the ground then just stand there without going in. Cuper was gone the next week.
The Inter fans have a tradition of being well organised and we don't have that but if only!
Craig Taylor
36   Posted 15/12/2010 at 17:19:51

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I just think Tony, that I would still rather have Moyes than Sam Allardyce. And if Moyes went today, that's who we would get.
Dave Jeanrenaud
37   Posted 15/12/2010 at 18:15:58

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I've not posted on here for quite a while. However as someone who used to take great pleasure in telling Tony how wrong he was, it is only fair that I admit when he is calling it right.

I still believe that David Moyes has been a brilliant manager for Everton but the last 18 months have taken us right back to the dark days of Walter Smith.

Anyone remember the season under Walter when we didn't score a goal at home until November? It seems like every match is just like this right now.

I nearly turned the car around on the East Lancs on Saturday when I heard that Saha was starting instead of Beckford. Whilst he may be somewhat of a 'rough diamond', at least Beckford has shown in recent games that he has an eye for goal and that he is not afraid to keep getting into goalscoring positions. Contrast this with 'King' Louis who rarely gets into a goalscoring position and who has not put a shift in since he signed his new mega contract.

I'm sick to death of Everton under David Moyes and what is more I think Moyes himself has grown tired of the job. Maybe he needs a new challenge as much as we need a fresh start.
Andy Crooks
38   Posted 15/12/2010 at 19:22:50

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Dave, if that's not a trick question you've set Tony then I don't know what is.
Jamie Sweet
39   Posted 15/12/2010 at 19:39:15

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I'd just climb back into that vat of JD Tony. Find your happy place.
Mike Hughes
40   Posted 15/12/2010 at 19:36:05

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Tony Hughes@30

Don't forget Shrewsbury and was it Northampton or Brentford in the cup - not to mention being on the wrong end of several giant-killings.

Not to mention the apathetic display in the FA Cup Final and the Carling Cup Semi-Final.

Traditionally I'm a middle-of-the-road Moyes supporter but definitely wavering. Too many false dawns and half-a-season-will-do efforts for me.

The footy is crap but would settle for scrappy, scab-ended, cack-stained, one-nils wins right now. We live in hope!
Mike Allison
41   Posted 15/12/2010 at 21:31:05

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Yeah but Alan (2), the point is that we're nowhere near needing to scrape a jammy point at home to Coventry to stay up, we're way, way better than that.

If that happens on the last day of the season then I dare say you'll see protests and demands, but we're not in that position. We're having a low mid-table, poor run of form at home season at the moment, and we do look capable of beating teams, we're just not doing it.
Jon Cox
42   Posted 15/12/2010 at 21:12:34

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So we have Blackburn. A club taken over by a Kentucky Fried Halal company that is going to be the be-all and end-all of Blackburn. They have just got rid of Big Sam like he was just another piece of meat. Yeah right, and I just love this foreign import shit.

These twats want to sell their chicken to Blackburn people and use their club to do it. How odious is that? I talked in another post about prostitution. Well, Blackburn, you can have it... because we at Everton wont!!!.

I don't rate Moyes and I find his tactics and management wankable. But I'd sooner have him than some Indian takeaway third world multiculti sweatshop getting their slimy paws on our team and our club.

How many of you would have sold yourselves to be in the position Blackburn are in now?

I'd like Moyes out for the good of our club but I'll not remove him for the likes of the shite that now own Blackburn.

Multiculti... Yeah it's great.

Till they own you.......
Tony I'Anson
43   Posted 15/12/2010 at 22:59:20

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Apparently the average age of an Evertonian is 44. And guess where we all were in 1985? That is a scary thought for the future of our Club.
John Connor
44   Posted 15/12/2010 at 23:02:38

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#42 What does the situation at Blackburn have to do with us? The new owners wanted to change the manager because Big Sam is an average manager at best... lucky at Bolton (Owen Coyle?), out of his depth at Newcastle, and giving hints he would walk if a 'bigger' club came calling.

Bill K will not get rid of his mate, no matter what happens this season. Moyes, like Big Sam, is an average manager who in my opinion can take the club no further, but as the media love him, and his boss has no balls, he will stay ? no matter what the results.

Dave Wilson
45   Posted 16/12/2010 at 07:10:07

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I promise it wasn't intended to be a trick question. My point is this: if money doesn't count ? and we are frequently told it doesn't ? the best man will finish out on top.

If Tony Marsh genuinly believes, Coyne, De Matteo OR Holloway are better and will finish above Moyes then I can see his argument... But if he doesn't, I don't.
Derek Thomas
46   Posted 16/12/2010 at 08:12:39

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Dave Wison, It's not about who finishes higher as a measure of who is the better manager. Moyes has finished 17th 5th and all points inbetween. Either he has talent or not or does it fluctuate season to season. Think very carefully before you answer...

Yes, he has talent but other factors stop him from going on to win something... fair enough.

No, talent fluctuates... or is it only the results that fluctuate, see the other factors thing.

So it could be shown that league position is not a definitive measure of how good a manager is.

Just coz 'A' finishes higher or lower than 'B' does not mean 'A' is in actual fact better than 'B'.


It ain't what you do but how you do it.

But Moyes doesn't do it with style, dash, elan, boldness.

The others at least try to but are held back by these darned 'other factors'.

Why do, say Stoke or Hull. or fill in whoever, out spend us? Because, they are new to the moneyfest that is the EPL. Unlike Everton, who have been throwing the family silver at the EPL (none left now).

All these and others who may or may not finish above us do so not coz the managers are attack-minded but the clubs aren't set up to attack properly.

We on the other hand are set up to challenge and attack the big boys and, on the odd time have done it .

But the trouble is Davy ALWAYS reverts back to his default condition.

Dave Wilson
47   Posted 16/12/2010 at 09:27:36

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So if teams/managers/players are not to be judged by whereabouts they finish in the league, Derek, how would you like to judge them?

I`m all for change, but only if that change is to be for the better.

We are Everton. IMO, the 'new kid on the block' enthusiasm we witness every season from newly promoted teams should never be enough to put their managers in the reckoning.
Matthew Mackey
48   Posted 16/12/2010 at 11:22:49

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Surely the battering we gat against WBA two weeks earlier goes down as Black Saturday. For me, this was the game that finally made me realize we have major problems. Never mind going to the match, I didn't even bother to look for the score against Wigan until late in the evening. And when I did see it I just smiled and said to the missus "I told you so".

Other obvious contenders for lowest point in a season.
1) Away to Hull City last season ? that was bad!
2) Away to Wigan last season ? that was VERY bad.
3) Home to Newcastle this season.
4) Away at Reading about 3 or 4 seasons ago (embarrassing).
5) Away to Villa on Boxing Day about 5 years ago (lost 4-0) ? the only time that Per Krøldrup played.

The current climate though, as Tony says, is probably the lowest I have felt for a long long time....
Still... we do have an away fixture at Citeh on Monday and you know what happened there last season!

Paul Joy
49   Posted 16/12/2010 at 12:10:57

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Marshy, you are back to your worst/best ? talking shite as ever.

The calls for Everton to sack David Moyes are understandable because of our level of performance and bad league position. But seriously do you really believe there is a better alternative out there? You must be careful what you wish for in life but hey Sam Allardyce is available ? just imagine that FFS.

David Moyes does not get everything right and gets some criticism he deserves at times but, in the circumstances he has had to work with at Everton, he has quite rightly received the acclaim of his peers and of many others within Football. But Marshy does not rate him so he must go.

I am not an apologist for David Moyes and nor am I happy at our style of play and our fall from genuinely challenging for honours ? but I am a realist who knows that the game has changed ? and in doing so has left our club behind. I have said before that Everton have been in decline since John Moores ended his involvement.

What do we as Everton fans actually want? Kenwright out ? who takes over?
Moyes out? ? same question. Arab / Indian / American / Thai / Russian gazillionaires in?? Really ? is that what we as fans want. Because to really compete again that is what will be needed. Do we want Everton to turn into Man City!?!

I can honestly say I don't know how Everton can reclaim our position of 25 plus years ago. But to turn on those who have done a superb job on our behalf when times are tough is not something I support. Remember Mike Walker, Walter Smith, Peter Johnson ? I could go on....

FFS, stop wingeing and whining ? and all of us need to support our team especially as we are doing badly. Not run for somewhere to hide so we can moan and bitch in safety on the internet.

You have the right of your views Marshy but personally I find them stomach churning yet again. I suspect I always will.
Tony Hughes
50   Posted 16/12/2010 at 15:21:11

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Paul Joy; why is Marshy talking shite?? Is anything he said a lie? It's you and your ilk that talk shite!!
Stewart Littler
51   Posted 16/12/2010 at 15:22:31

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Paul J @ 49: I have been very critical of TM in the past, and always been in support of Moyes ? but I think he calls it pretty much spot on.

You can be a realist all you want, but answer me this ? and this goes for all Evertonians who are still in denial about the dire situation at Goodison ? how does DM take a team who took 39 points from 19 in the 1st half of 2010 to taking just 18 points from 17 with only a summer to separate?!

That form in the 1st half of the year, when we played every team once (apart from City who we played twice and Burnley who we didn't play at all) should have proved that we are capable of challenging at the top, so it's only fair to expect the same or similar, and ceratinly not a drop of over 20 points.

It points to stale ideas, stale tactics, and an inability/unwillingness to change ? and before I'm criticised, I've always been one of the 'apologists' as we've been called.

Paul Joy
52   Posted 16/12/2010 at 15:49:20

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Tony Hughes (#50) ? does everyone have to agree with Tony Marsh? Is it compulsory? It is my view that he consistently spouts misery and negativity and has done for years and it is my view that he has done yet again. You can agree if you want that is up to you.

Your point sounds a bit childish ? I do not say Marshy has lied; he says what he believes ? I just disagree with what he says and have always disagreed with how he says it.
In simple terms he talks shite in my view.

Stewart ? I don't want to get rid of David Moyes because I believe he can do as well as anyone can with what he has to work with ? if you feel I am in denial so be it but I am not and never have been an apologist. I do not dispute your logic based on what facts you put forward.

Tony J Williams
53   Posted 16/12/2010 at 17:32:00

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Steward, I will once again put a question out there.

Why do the players get away with it so much? Yes Moyes substitutions are infuriating but not as half as much as Pienaar's powderpuff shots, Saha's falling over, Beckfords blooners etc

Moyes has the same team as last year because our budget was a packet of polos, every other team....I repeat.. EVERY other team in this league has moved forward whilst we have stayed still/fell back.

Tactics on Saturday were fine, as were the games before, it's the feckers in the middle not being able to convert chances that are costing us. We have an old French has been, an old injured Yak, a useless Beckford, a crocked Anichebe and a returning, now injured Vaughan. These feckers couldn't score in a brothel of late, so no matter how good/bad your tactics are, once the chances come in front of goal, those feckers named above won't put the fecking ball in the fecking onion bag.

No strikers = no goals = no points. It's surprising that we have only lost the same number of games as Arsenal and only one more than Chelski but we cannot convert the draws into wins as no one can score for us.... possibly because we are now trying to do an Arsenal and pass the ball into the net ....... hit the fecking things will yersssss. and breathe.
Eugene Ruane
54   Posted 16/12/2010 at 18:41:55

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Paul Joy, you say..

"FFS, stop wingeing and whining ? and all of us need to support our team especially as we are doing badly. Not run for somewhere to hide so we can moan and bitch in safety on the internet"

What does this mean - we're all supposed to post nothing but 'COYB!'?

You think when we see glaring problems or faults, it's disloyal to mention them?

Do you think constantly posting "Huzzah for Everton!" makes ANY difference to what goes on at Goodison?

Sorry but not only are you talking shite, it's really badly 'thought-out' shite.

"Not run for somewhere to hide so we can moan and bitch in safety on the internet"

Fact: When shareholders 'bitched and moaned' at a shareholders meeting (ie: NOT behind 'the safety of the internet') Everton stopped having the meetings.

And WE'RE shithouses?

What do you suggest - we all fuck off to Halewood and shout at Moyes and the players as they come out of training?

This is a Everton supporters website and it seems if it were down to you, discussion and opinion would end and posts would simply be 'COYB' and NSNO'.

Or to put it another way, imagine a thread that was answered by 50 Doddys.


Tony J Williams
55   Posted 16/12/2010 at 20:40:19

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"Or to put it another way, imagine a thread that was answered by 50 Doddys"

God, that's a harrowing thought....
Martin Handley
56   Posted 16/12/2010 at 21:34:05

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I remember March 2002 going to and getting twated by Boro in the Cup on a Sunday. I remember going to Goodison the next day with a few mates to take a letter to Kenwright signed by about 500 people telling him to sack Smith.

Imagine my and the lads suprise found that there were hundreds of other blues doing exactly the same thing: result, Smith out, Moyes in... so yes, it can be done. Don't forget, Smith was BK's bum chum as well but 7,500 screaming away fans that Sunday had made his mind up.

Who would I get in? Well Big Sam temporarily to get us out of the shite that we're in and gents pretty football won't get us out of it hoof ball and strong arm tactics just might.

Like Tony M, whom I've disagreed with strongly in the past, I agree that Moyes has to and go now. The countdown to disaster is almost done ? we have to act now. BK slating can wait for another day,but he must once again do the right thing and send the dark lord back to hell!

Col Noon
57   Posted 16/12/2010 at 22:01:25

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David Moyes has the look of a "broken" man about him. He is devoid of ideas, imagination and inspiration. His whole persona screams out "OH FUCK".

Saying that, I do genuinley think he is hurting by the current plight of Everton Football Club... as we all are; that's why we are on here voicing not only our opinion but our CONCERN.

Let's not beat about about the bush, this is a certified relegation battle we have on our hands, we could well find ourselves in the bottom 3 come Monday night when we play City. Our forwards are nothing more than a joke... and I mean ALL OF THEM, players on massive salaries have failed to deliver anything of note and with the exception of Cahill, Baines, Piennar and wait for it.... Distin, the rest of the squad have given us absolultley nothing whatsover to cheer about.

I am writing Monday night's game off already, so defeat against Birmingham and something HAS to be done... I admire Moyes for what he has done for Everton Football Club, but I don't see anymore he can do for us. I do think he must see the bigger picture and do what's best for him and the club and go with all our best wishes.

Everton ruin your Xmas???? ? not a chance! :)

Marcus Kendall
58   Posted 16/12/2010 at 22:55:35

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Martin Handley,

Please tell me you're joking regarding giving Allardyce the Everton job? Even if it's short term, I'd rather not.

Look, we won't get relegated with Moyes and we won't get Europe either, it's mid-table mediocrity for this season.

A young and up-coming manager is the way forward and there's plenty out there whose names have already been put forward on this site.

And as for the foreign ownership issue, I agree I hate it and how it takes the soul away from the club. I mean what are Man City representing now? It's fake and will garnish cheap success.

I've always felt the biggest clubs with the biggest fanbases should be the teams at the top, the smaller clubs should be able to compete by good management and not spending money they can't bring in through their own revenue streams.

If Everton ever sold out, I'd give up on football because I couldn't relate to something I totally disagree with.

For all Kenwright's faults, at least we're owned by a fan and that is how every club should be run. I am an idealist!
John Andrews
59   Posted 17/12/2010 at 01:09:08

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A very fine summing up of the situation Tony. I unfortunately have followed Everton Football Club for bloody 50 years now and I am absolutely distraught with the situation as it now appears.
Art Jones
60   Posted 17/12/2010 at 08:02:23

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I still go to most games, home and away. I've been going for 41 years so I can say with honesty I've seen the great, the good, the mediocre and the downright awful.

What annoys me most of all about this current team is the amount of games I've walked away from scratching my head wondering how we haven't won the game I've just watched. The amount of times we've outplayed the opposition but a Pienaar or Saha shot has hit the woodwork, a keeper such as Schwartser, Friedel, Al Habsi, Carson has pulled off an unbelievable string of saves, Beckford has ballooned another shot over the bar, and a 'Linesman' has missed a blatant offside.

This isn't a one-off, it's all the time... but, short of Kenwright suddenly finding a fortune down the back of his couch to buy a Tevez or Darren Bent, I can't see much else that can be done.

I watch MotD or Sky highlights and teams I'm told are the best in the land are not as good as we can be, that's why Chelsea were lucky to get a point off us and why I'm confident of a result against the City Billionaires. There's nothing much wrong with us a few goals from Saha, Yak or Becks wouldn't cure.

Paul Joy
61   Posted 17/12/2010 at 14:01:51

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Eugene Ruane - what a rant that was. Was your response to my post or someone elses? Get your facts right before coming out with such wild comments. I have responded to many many Tony Marsh articles and posts and have never suggested that he or anyone else who shares his views should not voice them. Quite the opposite in fact.

If Marshy or anyone else wants to express their views on all things Everton then this is as good a forum as any to use. Therefore it stands to reason that anyone including myself can also use this same forum to express an opposite or different view.

Its called freedom of speech ? you don't like my views ? so what get over it. But please don't either misquote or invent things I have never said nor even thought.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
62   Posted 17/12/2010 at 15:32:57

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Paul, help me here ? I'm confused.

Eugene began with this quote:

"FFS, stop whingeing and whining ? and all of us need to support our team especially as we are doing badly. Not run for somewhere to hide so we can moan and bitch in safety on the internet."

It's a direct quote from your post #49. What is he misquoting or inventing?
Martin Handley
63   Posted 17/12/2010 at 15:36:39

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Marcus (#58) ? no, mate, I'm not joking, I've totally had enough of Moyes and his refusal to take any blame for destroying morale ? both in the stands and on the pitch. He's clueless, nothing is his ever his fault, and he I don't think he knows how to get us out of this malaise.

I don't like Allardyce either but he knows how to win in a fight and that's what we're in ? a fight ? make no mistake about it.

Ciarán McGlone
64   Posted 18/12/2010 at 16:54:01

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"For all Kenwright's faults, at least we're owned by a fan and that is how every club should be run. I am an idealist! "

Dear Christ. That is probably the most depressing post i've ever read on here..the fact that we have some fans who are happy to let a moron run our club into the ground, because they have an irrational and rather disgusting fear of 'foreigners' is depressing. Interesting that you make no issue from Earl keeping his business interests in the Virgin Islands... 'foreigners' eh... dodgy characters!

As for Tony's article. The problem with our current plight is the lofty expectations that a lot of our fans had for this season. Its been quite obvious for some time that Moyes had reached his zenith... the man has been repeating the same mistakes for nearly 10 years... yet a huge section of our fans tolerated this. But it cannot be disputed that Moyes has assembled the best team we've had in a very long time.

However, Moyes is not our major problem..Kenwright is. Moyes may have reached his ceiling.. but any manager who comes here with the potential to win the league will ultimately be limited by the incompetency of our chairman. You ultimately need money to win the league, and Kenwright cannot provide that ? and never could.

Kenwright is our biggest obstacle... irrespective of David Moyes's limitations.
Paul Joy
65   Posted 21/12/2010 at 14:44:19

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Michael can I take it you read the remainder of his post - because that is where Eugene Ruane went off on a tangent.

My response was aimed at Tony Marsh as per usual - Eugene chose to take my views in the way that he seems to like. As I said freedom of speech and opinion. Or is censorship back on the agenda.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
66   Posted 21/12/2010 at 17:00:33

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Paul, I can accept you don't like what Tony Marsh writes ? a lot of people don't. But when you examine the things he's actually saying in THIS article ? rather than the way he is saying them ? is it really "shite"? Are they actually demonstrably wrong?

Saying someone is talking "total shite, as ever" just seems to be primarily a knee-jerk reaction to seeing the name "Tony Marsh" as the author.

It's not really a Freedom of Speech or censorship issue ? it's a question of whether your characterization of a post is reasonable or not. It's the same concern with your response to Eugene...

You say he made things up... what did he make up? There is only one way to interpret the call you made ? and that is central to Eugene's "rant".

"Get your facts right before coming out with such wild comments." You say the rest of his post went off tangent... where? In what way? It was fully focussed on the quote you made, and on the meaning of that quote as applied to this website.

By putting up all these deflections, it's like you're trying to back away from what you said without really doing so.

"Not run for somewhere to hide so we can moan and bitch in safety on the internet." ? Can you not see what that says about the entire forum and how that automatically trashes everything anyone writes on here?

All I'm asking, Paul, is that you take more responsibility for what you write on here, and that you make sure it is credible ? and not just some knee-jerk reaction that is, when push comes to shove, lacking in any real substance.

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