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Worse than Walker,
worse than Bingham,
worse than Smith

By Ian Edwards :  29/12/2010 :  Comments (77) :
David Moyes's managership has turned into a nasty smelling slow death.

I'll be honest. I've never been a fan. Even when he has allegedly done well he has failed. Villarreal was a wasted opportunity. Would any other manager play a lump like Beattie up front on his own in the home leg?

Would any other manager watch us fail to have a shot when chasing a Chelsea team in the League Cup home leg semi-final and then only put another forward on when we were two down and the tie lost?

Would any manager get to an FA Cup Final and raise the white flag when we go behind. No plan B whatsoever.

He has presided over our biggest ever margin of defeat (0-7) at Arsenal.

His record in cups is shocking. 1-4 at home to Blackburn, defeats at Shrewsbury, Brentford and the less said about Dinamo Bucharest, Sporting Lisbon and Benfica the better.

Moyes's record away at the so called big four is absolutely dreadful... In all competitions : P 40, W 0, D 15, L 25, F 28, A 79... Even Blackpool have won at Anfield.!!

Moyes has turned up at Anfield on 9 occasions and seen us score just 4 times.

How many times do we have to stare open mouthed at another ludicrous and negative team selection. How many players chosen out of position.?

How many times has the white flag been raised away and the bus parked ?

Moyes apologists go on about his lack of money but don't look closely at who he has bought for big money and wasted:

Krøldrup £4M
Heitinga £5M
Bilyaletdinov £10M
Fellaini £15

How many forwards have had their confidences crushed by being left isolated up front? ? Johnson, Beattie, Saha, Yakubu, Beckford...

The tactics are boring, negative and stale.

We are worse off than when Moyes arrived. But the end is in sight. The supporters are starting to see through him. Scunthorpe will see the end of him. If another defeat in the FA Cup against lower league oppostion will see the back of him then it will be worth the loss.

Reader Comments

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Phil Yates
1   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:01:33

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This is our season to date:

P W D L F A GD PTS

19 4 10 5 21 22 -1 22

Convert 5 of those draws to wins and we have 32 points which would place us 5th in the table.

The bore draw against West Ham yesterday reflects the Moyes's style of always securing a point before trying to win. I would accept a few more defeats in return for some attacking intent against teams we should be blowing away.

The win at City looked to have really generated some confidence and belief in the team but that did not show yesterday.

I'm just really frustrated that a squad with a lot of potential is not living up to it and for that I blame the coaching and the tactics.

How long do we put up with this for?

Tony Hughes
2   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:02:24

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For the forseeable, Phil! Moyes won't change his dour defensive philosophy, and the Panto Queen is not going to sack him is he? Sadly we are lumbered with this crap!
Paul Gladwell
3   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:01:51

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I would like a fresh change in the summer, `but the who would we get crowd` do have a bit of a shout, it would be a bit of a gamble but Moyes is not going to take us further unless from somewhere he starts having some balls.

I would like to see the stats for how many games this season he has had to abandon his game plan by the 60 minute mark and brought the cavalry on which in my view is an admission his first eleven was wrong.

Richard Osborne
4   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:09:37

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True Toffeeweb right here. A sensationalist headline and a scewed article. OK, you make valid points about Moyes, I don't necessarily disagree but your title was "Worse than Walker, Worse than Bingham, Worse than Smith", so where are the statistics to back that statement up? You use statistics to criticise Moyes but I don't see anything about Bingham/ Walker/ Smith's record against the top 4/ in Europe/ Cup competitions.

If you want people to understand and make sense of your criticisms, at least use your brain and back it up with something tangible that we can evaluate Moyes against.

For the record, I find it hilarious that people beat Moyes with the whole 'results in Europe' stick, when he is the first manager since Joe Royle to get us into Europe and in the most part, he has kept us competing at that end of the table.

Moyes is not beyond reproach, far from it, but to suggest he is worse than Walker/ Smith/ Bingham is simply ludicrous.
Andrew McGreavy
5   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:11:22

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I don't think we should put up with it any longer! This club is being killed in front of our eyes by this negative rubbish.

I feel so sorry for the people who paid to watch that rubbish yesterday, but what did you expect? Moyes to try and win the game, or keep the point we had.

Whoever writes the crap on our website needs a good sorting out, even Lord Haw Haw couldn't spout propaganda like them.

Vive le revolution, and sort out this rubbish before the body looses any form of pulse, and our once great club is pronounced dead!
Andrew McGreavy
6   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:17:01

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Should add "our website is www.evertonfc.com"
Mike Allison
7   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:24:34

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Typical 'one fella on the internet will always go over the top' article this. I think we all felt deeply frustrated with Moyes, but the intelligent discussion has taken place elsewhere, mostly on Michael's thread.

Richard Osborne sums it up nicely, not much more to say about this other than that Ian should have counted to a very high number before realising it wasn't worth bothering.
Paul Gladwell
8   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:27:30

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Richard, the people who use the Europe stick to beat Moyes are the same people who shall be dreading going to mighty Scunthorpe away in the cup, why is this I ask?
Yes he has done a great job when it`s backs to the wall, but the first time he has a good fully fit squad of talented footballers he does not appear to have a clue, players out of position,players getting mauled in the press whilst his favourites get away with murder,players left to leave for jack shit,players we could have robbed £6M for still here.
Richard Everest
9   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:28:51

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I've been an avid reader of Toffeeweb for some time, although I confess to being more of a voyeur than a participant, normally logging on and reading the articles with interest, without ever posting my own thoughts. However this article demanded a comment.

Moaning about Moyes's record in European games, League Cup semi finals and FA Cup Finals is the biggest single argument against the point the writer is trying to make. How many times under any of the managers listed in the title did we play in any such games, let alone triumph?

Moyes has his critics, and quite rightly so, but lets keep the critism sensible and credible. "We are worse off than when Moyes arrived" ? please! Even the most ardent Moyes critic would surely recognise that we are in a far better shape now than we were when he arrived. Point taken about some of his signings (although including Fellaini in that list further damages your argument), but find a manager that hasn't bought some duffers!

The big question in my mind is, can we continue to progress under Moyes? ? not whether we have or not.

James Stewart
10   Posted 29/12/2010 at 14:50:42

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Sorry but the argument ? "just by getting us into Europe, it doesn't matter how we play" ? simply doesn't wash with me.

Yes, he got us there... but I would rather have not got there to be honest! The embarrassment after the Benfica game, for example, was one of the worst moments of being an Everton fan. We were embarrassed and Moyes's tactics were put to the sword pretty much every time we came up against decent opposition in Europe.

The 2009 FA Cup Final was another embarrassment. Everyone could see what the problem was except Moyes. It's time to go I am afraid.

Richard Osborne
11   Posted 29/12/2010 at 15:04:11

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James #10, I understand what you are saying and to a certain extent, I do agree with you. I think the issue that Moyes has right now, is that the 'hoofball' used to be a means to an end, or so we were told. We were told that Moyes would love to play free-flowing football and once Everton are in a league position, qualifying for Europe and attracting better players, we would be playing attractive football.

Unfortunately, when we reached that level, Moyes did not deliver what he promised. He stuck with Neville & Hibbert. He continued to buy utility players instead of genuine quality in specific positions.

This is where I really despair about Moyes. He can spot talent. Look at Arteta, Baines, Pienaar, Cahill, Lescott, Jagielka. But for every one of them, there is a Saha, Bilyaletdinov, Heitinga, Kroldrup. He's either Jekyll or Hyde.

The problem now is that means is no longer producing an end. The very thing that Moyes was applauded for - turning dog shit into a winning side, has now gone and done a 180 and we are back to watching terrible football without any meaningful run of form. Is this the fault of the Manager, the players or the board. I think it's a combination of all three, which to me is very, very worrying.
Brian Lawlor
12   Posted 29/12/2010 at 15:26:00

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No it isn't. Full stop
Russ Quinlan
13   Posted 29/12/2010 at 15:27:40

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The problem is he has been here 9 years and has (sort of) stabilised the playing side but we are going nowhere. We are grateful to get out of the annual relegation dogfight (hopefully!) but we NEED to progress and he has the players to do it but he hasn't got a clue how to do it. We will continue to stay in this 'safe' position and no more, until someone with higher ambitions replaces him.
David Thomas
14   Posted 29/12/2010 at 15:37:42

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"We are worse off than when Moyes arrived. But the end is in sight."

Absolute fucking rubbish. I like everyone else is unhappy with the way this season is going but to suggest we are worse off now as a club that when Moyes took charge against Fulham in his first game is embarrassing.
James Stewart
15   Posted 29/12/2010 at 16:03:01

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We are not worse off than when he arrived as, if Moyes was sacked tomorrow, the next manager would inherit more quality than when Moyes came in. However I do agree that we are playing as bad as when he took over ? if not worse.

We have served up some of the worst anti-football this season I have ever seen. Yesterday was the straw that broke the camels back. This is the best squad Moyes has had ? according to him ? and he has failed miserably and should suffer the consequences.

Ian Edwards
16   Posted 29/12/2010 at 16:29:20

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To answer Richard, I believe the title to be appropriate.

Mike Walker arrived in the January and took over a team heading for relegation and kept the club in the top flight. The win over Wimbledon brought me more pleasure than any thing Dithering Dave has done.

Walter Smith managed to win at Anfield. Something Moyes never has nor ever will do.

Billy Bingham finshed three points away from winning the league. The team also played entertaining football.
John Ford
17   Posted 29/12/2010 at 16:25:31

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Many posts are exaggerated re the damage Moyes has supposedly caused, but its rare to have such drivel on a main article. Talk about selective memory!

Get real, we know Moyes has a problem with tactics and yesterday was no fun at all, but Moyes has made us the only club to consistently challenge the Sky Four, and has done so with very little cash. You just look silly making strawman points which are obviously lop sided. Criticise him, but at least bother to weigh up all the evidence first.
Lee Courtliff
18   Posted 29/12/2010 at 16:23:57

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Ian, if you remember, it was actually James Beattie who scored for us in that game against Villarreal at home. That makes one of your points useless straight away.

And I also don't believe you can call Fella, Johnny and Bily a waste of money because they all have shown some true class at times. I would critcise Moyes for not using them correctly rather than for buying them in the first place.

Anyway, look at the money Fergie wasted on the likes of Veron, Barthez, Tosic and God knows how many others. Every manager makes bad buys... Every manager.

I do agree that yesterday was a new low. The lack of belief he has in his own squad is amazing. I don't know why he does these things. I am starting to wonder just what Holloway could do with this squad! And I have always been a Moyes fan so I can understand why people who have never been Moyes fans are so pissed off!!

Ian Edwards
19   Posted 29/12/2010 at 16:38:38

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John, we finished 4th once six years ago. That was wasted. Where are we today? Miles away from the top four. Dare I say we are nearer the bottom four. Moyes has taken us behind Bolton and Stoke. Liverpool have had their worst start for 40 years and are still better than us.
Lyndon Lloyd
20   Posted 29/12/2010 at 16:38:34

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Some people have VERY short memories. We are nowhere near as bad now as we were under Smith or Walker. Sensationalist and short-sighted, in my opinion.

I can recall matches under both of those former managers where we would barely muster a shot on goal in the entire 90 minutes. At least now we're controlling most games, passing the ball about and creating some chances.

Moyes's team selection yesterday was incredibly disappointing, and that's putting it mildly, but to suggest that we're in some kind of slow death akin to the Walker or Smith eras is, well, bollocks. We've moved up a level since their time and Moyes is struggling to match the new expectations. Comparisons with the misery that came before him aren't valid anymore.
Ray Roche
21   Posted 29/12/2010 at 16:33:12

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Simonsen, Pistone, Weir, Stubbs, Unsworth (Blomqvist 75), Hibbert, Carsley, Gemmill, Gravesen, Radzinski (Moore 45), Ferguson.

Subs Not Used: Gerrard, Clarke, Chadwick.

Ian Edwards, this is the team Moyes inherited and beat Fulham in the first game under Moyes. Have a good look at it and then try and convince ANYONE that it's a better team than we can put out now. You can't.

Don't claim that today's squad are shite because we've had a few crap results; we have a team that's off form and Moyes's negativity is partly to blame but don't talk shite by saying we're worse than we were under Walker and Smith.

Richard Dodd
22   Posted 29/12/2010 at 16:58:11

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The undeniable truth is that David Moyes is our most successful Premier manager and on average finishing position over 8 years one of our most successful of all time.

True, we have made only an modest start to the present campaign but are well in touch with the teams above us and well capable of a top six finish. Additionally, hoof-ball is a thing of the past and the team is playing more flowing football than all but the current top four.

Please, everyone, a little balance to your comments, please!

James Stewart
23   Posted 29/12/2010 at 17:38:35

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What a load of bullshit. Yes Moyes on the whole has done better than Smith but so what! Is that really the bar of success we want?! I should bloody hope he has done better as worse would see us relegated.

However, I defy anyone to re-watch yesterday's match and then honestly say Moyes is the best man for the job.
Gavin Ramejkis
24   Posted 29/12/2010 at 17:37:07

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Doddy, get your comments in context, there are a lot of valid points in this thread. DM never has and to my mind never will win a trophy with his awful brand of football, winning tangible trophies and not just the tinpot Manager of the Month shite. A "modest start"? But for a small handful of shitter teams we would be bottom of the league Doddy.

Fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, etc is not a success ? it's an also-ran. Does Hibbert still have the extra arsehole Malouda tore him at the FA Cup Final? As very poignantly highlighted above, making a significant change in each game very late on to try to salvage a point is surely an obvious result of starting the wrong players/formation yet happens week-in and week-out.

Again Doddy and its getting very boring, when does the season start? ? August, September, October, November, December or January? How many more excuses?

ps: Where's Black Bill?

Christopher Masters
25   Posted 29/12/2010 at 17:31:17

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Oh for pity's sake ... Some Evertonians have short memories ... Remember fans running on the pitch on the last day of the season because we escaped relecation on goal difference under Howard Kendall ...? Remember signing desperate has-beens like David Ginola ...Eh

Remember a midfield that included some little Norwegian bloke and an African that asked to be substituted because a fan ran on and asked to swap shirts with him ... Remember this lot do ya ... Eh ....?

Remember when the goal every season was to "stay-up" - Remember when we celebrated a 1-1 draw with Liverpool like we'd won the European Cup....

Every bleating,fickle minded, short-sighted, wingeing Evertonian who has the audacity to come onto this forum and slag off David Moyes should stand in front of a mirror an' have a word with themselves ...

And then perhaps look back about 8 or 9 years and get misty eyed about the "good, old days ..." when the team, the squad, the management and the brand of football we played was utter, utter ..... SHITE ....

I readily admit that I am unhappy about our results this season, but to suggest that we should get rid of Moyes is complete and utter insanity ... Who will replace him ... Big Sam ...? David O'Leary ... The Fat Waiter .... Woo Hoo ... bring on the dancing girls .... Get a grip boys ....
John Ford
26   Posted 29/12/2010 at 18:12:53

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Hear, hear, Christopher.
Liam Appleby
27   Posted 29/12/2010 at 18:02:18

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Articles like this actually make me question the mental capacity of some of our fans. It's quite simply cringe worthy reading such drivel, the title of the article is equally embarrassing.

LMA manager of the year 2002?03, 2004?05, 2008?09 since he took the job...lets see how far we have come since then.

TEAM V Fulham in Moyes first game in charge.

Simonsen,
Pistone,
Weir,
Stubbs,
Unsworth,
Hibbert,
Carsley,
Gemmill,
Gravesen,
Radzinski,
Ferguson.


Lets look at a selection of our first team now.

Howard - USA international signed by Moyes from Man United

P Neville - Possibly one of Moyes best buys, highly underrated, contributes both on and off the fied.

Baines - The second best left back in England.

Jagielka - Moyes brought this lad in from Championship and turned him into one of the best English Centre backs.

Distin - Losing Lescott (who moyes brought in and sold for 24 million) was never going to be easy. After a slow start has started to play like he has for previous clubs.

Pienaar- Despite the contractual problems, has proven to be an excellent signing by Moyes for 2.5 million

Cahill - Moyes best signing, played in lower league before Moyes brought him in and turned him into one of the most dangerous midfielders in premiership. Certainly the first player the opposition will look to see if he is on the team sheet.

Arteta- Signed for next to nothing. Regarded as one of the most technically gifted players in the premiership. has been linked to Arsenal as replacement for Cesc.

Fellaini - Moyes most expensive signing. His big money transfer fee is no longer seen an issue by the majority of fans, such are his performances in the last 12 months.

Yakubu - Big money signing by Moyes, Was an instant hit in first season. Has struggled since his injury v spurs 2 years ago.

Saha - Despite his form of late. The lad was signed for next to nothing. Moyes got him playing and scoring. When we struggled with injuries last season, saha's goals kept our heads above water. His brace v Chelsea last season (when we beat them) a particular highlight.

Now compare those players with the ones that Moyes had that first game v Fulham. And tell me that Moyes is a worse manager than Smith. Im not even going to go anywhere near that Walker comparison...as he almost took us down...and we were bottom of the league when Royle came in.
Jim Feeney
28   Posted 29/12/2010 at 18:38:22

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Whether you like the situation or not Moyes will not be going anywhere in the forseeable future for two reasons:

1. He will not walk;
2. Thanks to bungling Bill's mismanagement of the club we haven't got the proverbial pot to urinate in and therefore couldn't afford to pay Moyes's contract off.

We are highly unlikely to bring in loan signings, so sadly we're stuck with what we've got ? a strikeforce other than Cahill who are goal shy.

No chance of a comment, Bill?
Michael Kenrick
29   Posted 29/12/2010 at 18:41:28

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Liam, I think like many (including the Webmeister), you miss the point by focussing on the somewhat overblown title and not the meat of the content.

Yes, the playing staff is now far better, no doubt about it.

The problem now is the managership of David Moyes: "We are worse off than when Moyes arrived" ? in terms of how the manager is managing the resources he has, and the results he is getting from them.

In fact, when you read the comparison you provide above, and look at the utter dross Moyes is currently overseeing in terms of tactics and results from his best squad ever, your contribution underlines further what an absolutely dreadful job he is currently doing.

Kunal Desai
30   Posted 29/12/2010 at 18:27:44

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The problem at Everton is like an F1 car, you work on it for a number of years to build it up to a level and then the driver cannot race it correctly.

Nothing wrong with the players at the club, the current players at the club are capable of achieving far greater things and playing better football than they currently are (maybe minus Hibbert who has no talent whatsoever)

The driver being Moyes is the problem, tactics and selection of players is one thing but who really knows what goes on in his head? Does someone need to motivate him? he doesn't take risks on bends overtaking his competitors when he has the ability to do so. Driving the wrong tyres on the wrong surface, players in different positions when it's easier to do the simple things correctly. As a person Moyes needs to take a look at himself and the traits he possesses, psychologically there is something not right with our driver.

Liam Appleby
31   Posted 29/12/2010 at 18:51:55

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I dont think i have missed the point Michael. He has turned lower league players and players who were not getting a game at previous clubs into top class players. Thats not by fluke, thats excellent management. Although i do think the manager is partly to blame for results. The football we have been playing is hardly dreadful. I watched us last night pass a team off the park (we had 63% possesion away from home), playing attractive football. We have done in most our games this season, but only been awarded with a point. Again what lacked from the performance last night and previous perforamces was goals. That is something that needs to be sorted out and hopefully will be. But to park the blame solely on Moyes when we have strikers like Yakubu and Saha, who i imagine will be the first to admit they need to do better...is just lazy.
James Stewart
32   Posted 29/12/2010 at 19:00:00

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Michael spot on. The fact that we have players of quality is the most frustrating part! Do you lot really believe players like Pienaar and Arteta like to play without a striker? Get real!

I can't think of a single other manager who would have set up the tactics like that yesterday. It was pathetic and quite frankly the mark of a coward.

Simon Jenkins
33   Posted 29/12/2010 at 19:03:16

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You destroyed whatever credibility this article had with that ridiculously untrue title.

David Moyes' Everton is not 'worse than Walker' (an insult to Moyes that), 'worse than Smith' (never finished higher than 13th in 4 years with Smith; with Moyes we've only finished lower than 11th once in 8 years); and 'worse than Bingham' (consistently higher finisher than Bingham had).

I'm all for fans making their voices heard and I can understand people's frustrations, but this ridiculous knee-jerking every time we suffer a bad result has to stop, it's mind-numbing and silly. There were no articles like this after the City game were there? And that was just 9 days ago.
Alan Noon
34   Posted 29/12/2010 at 19:06:10

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Think the article is a little bit harsh. In saying that most of the frustrations seem to stem from Moyes imploding on his own success. Not signing a striker prior to our Champions League campaign was bonkers. This year's team selections, negative play and bizarre substitutons lead to greater frustration. Maybe he needs a good number two to tell him when he's going wrong ? job anyone?
Michael Kenrick
35   Posted 29/12/2010 at 19:18:38

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Simon, we won on Monday. Unless you are mental, it's pretty hard to knee-jerk against that ? although to their credit, some are still able to view the match as a whole and make critical assessments.

The contention is that David Moyes's management of his resources has seriously deteriorated this season: last night was a very low point in that process. It was far more than just a "bad result" ? heck, it wasn't even really a bad result in the traditional sense (draw away... blah, blah).

But the reality of it seems to have escaped you. Read the posts again. Most people can see the match for what it was last night ? a dreadful indictment of Moyes's current incompetence. No amount of revisionist blather is going to obfuscate that horrible reality.
Mike Gwyer
36   Posted 29/12/2010 at 19:35:13

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OK, it's obvious that things are bad at the top level at EFC, particularly on the managment side. From what I'm seeing, Moyes is making it clear that he is getting no financial support to gee things up (especially up front).

I do not agree that Moyes is sitting in BK's pocket because, for all the shit being generated towards BK, primarily due to lack of funds, I'm sure BK would tell Moyes to fuckoff and get someone new in... (Oh!!!, BK looks at Moyes's £3M a year for another 4 years and shuts the fuck up.)

Couple the above with the fact that Moyes has lost ALL confidence in his strike force and would rather play with no striker than pick Saha, Yak or whoever else calls themselves a striker at EFC. You don't need to be Brain of Britian to figure that Moyes plays with no striker against the bottom club in the EPL, who are leaking goals against all and sundry, to realise that all is not well at EFC. I was fucking gob smacked!!!

Personally, I think Moyes is making a statement. Moyes wants transfer money, he wants a striker and I think he's doing all he can to ensure he gets both.

People, I have been sitting through a decade of shit prior to Moyes coming to this club. Things have improved and if you can't see that then you are blind.
Chris Wilkinson
37   Posted 29/12/2010 at 19:57:29

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This is the only thing I am going to say:
Anyone who thinks we should get rid or Moyes or would be better off without him is an Idiot.
Matthew Lovekin
38   Posted 29/12/2010 at 19:52:07

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Don't agree with the title, but agree with the content.

I do believe that Moyes has gone stale, but he is also tactically not good enough as top 4 quality managers. He can't get the consistently that the likes of Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, etc can. He has assembled a quality squad, but it's also proved his weakness that he can't get the best out of top quality players.

However, it's not just Moyes that is stale at the club, it's also Kenwright, the board, finances, corporate, merchandising. Unfortunately, the buck has to stop at the top, and although Kenwright's confidence and faith in Moyes is admirable, it's also ruining the club.
Christopher McCullough
39   Posted 29/12/2010 at 20:27:06

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Ian, I didn't even read your article because the title just isn't true.
Sam Hoare
40   Posted 29/12/2010 at 21:11:43

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Really? I mean last night wasn't great but was it really that bad?!

What i saw at Upton Park was one team trying to win the game but sadly lacking a clinical striker and not quite getting the rub of the green.

I have seen Everton play far, far worse and i'm sure i can't be alone in that. I'm not saying that makes it ok but to describe it as "a dreadful indictment of Moyes's current incompetence" seems a little over dramatic to say the least!!

Where does this god given right to turn up at West Ham and roll them over comfortably come from?

Everyone take a deep breath and quit the sensationalist headlines...please.
Tom Winek
41   Posted 29/12/2010 at 21:42:51

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The FA Cup Final often crops up when the Moyes bashing restarts. I was on a stag do heavily hungover that day but managed to watch the game through one eye. What I saw was a team without their best defender, midfielder and forward try as hard as they could and push Chelsea close. I couldn't help thinking had we had those players available and Chelsea been without Terry, Lampard and Drogba then we would have won more comfortably than they eventually did. Hibbert got skinned by 2 very gifted attacking players in 30+ degree heat also springs to mind but I don't blame him. Things aren't always black and white.

Also Fellaini is class. How can you think he is a waste of $?
Martin Handley
42   Posted 29/12/2010 at 22:01:09

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Just looked at the league table if we be Stoke we could go up to 7th that's how ridiculas the Prem is this season!
Good debate but and this is only my humble opinion nobody will EVER be as bad as Walker!
And Fellaini certainly isn't a waste of money!
I will however state for the record that I posted on here several times over the past 2-3 years that Moyes had come to the end of the line.
Tactically inept,Thatcher like in his unwillingness to change or to accept the bloody obvious,and I also agree that maybe it's his coaching methods with strikers that has destroyed them as all the strikers mentioned had bloody good records before the arrived here.
It's predictable and painful watching the blues now.
Oh and just a thought our two recent improved performances at Citeh and Chelski were done without either Pienaar or Arteta something to mull over perhaps?
Matteo Rosingana
43   Posted 29/12/2010 at 21:55:20

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Sam (40)


"I mean last night wasn't great but was it really that bad?!"

Compared to memories of games in the 90s where we'd struggle to get a shot in at places like Derby, no, last night didn't seem too bad. It's because we're now controlling games, having most posession, and (crucially) expecting a good result in most games. So, yes, expectation levels have been raised under Moyes, we're almost back to where we, as Everton, see ourselves, but we don;t have the final piece of the jigsaw - the confidence, arrogance, belief etc that comes from winning something. I, for one, can't ever see us winning anything under Moyes, and I would not be happy to see us carrying on as also-rans for ever. Thank you Mr Moyes for getting us back to somewhere close, but to get there will either take someone else, or a big change of management style and tactics.
Simon Jenkins
44   Posted 29/12/2010 at 22:07:24

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#35 Michael ? I am not 'mental', and why couldn't people have knee-jerked after the City game? How can one game vs West Ham be 'a dreadful indictment', when one game vs City was described by yourself in your own match report as 'indefatigable Everton'?

My point is that the likes of yourself and certain others on here whip yourselves into mass hysteria the minute we have a bad result, yet the minute we have a good result, it's all 'let's wait and see, one game at a time'.

I go to the match home and away and have done for years, I see the full 90 minutes, I am around Evertonians at every match and spend many hour travelling to and from the match on the coach (a roundtrip of 12 hours to West Ham yesterday). It doesn't make me better than any Evertonian, but I am certainly not 'mental' and I certainly do know what I am talking about thank you very much.

Urging restraint and realism is not 'revisionist blather'. I'd rather be that way than make petty remarks, like 'Moyes is odds-on to replace Darren Ferguson'. Oh, how hilarious.

Phil Martin
45   Posted 29/12/2010 at 22:12:24

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Ian, sorry mate but that's fucking shite in a bag.

Tranmere 0-3 @ Goodison? Middlesbro 0-3 in the FA cup?

...both under Smith.

Tell me another manager to take us into Europe 4 times? And do it on a budget of fuck and all?
Sam Hoare
46   Posted 29/12/2010 at 22:35:47

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Matteo ? fair point, well made, but it is the fact that Moyes has considerably raised expectations that I think titles such as the one above this piece are ridiculous.

Whether he has taken us as far as he can is another question altogether.
Ian Smitham
47   Posted 29/12/2010 at 22:52:48

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What an interesting debate of differing views. In fact i am just printing all the views so that i can study them later away from the computer. 1-47 inclusive, upto Brian(47) .
Michael Kenrick
48   Posted 29/12/2010 at 23:20:07

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Simon, you were asking why no-one knee-jerked after the win against City. I was probably wasting my time trying to explain that only someone who was "mental" would really do that... however, post-match analysis, which we fully encourage, does get posted, and is often confused by some as "knee-jerk". Sadly, it seems that has become an easy throw-away denigration of any view that does not align with your own.

Fact is each of us responds to what we see; again, you with the labels, though: "mass-hysteria" ? have you actually taken the time to read people's comments on here??? Most of the post-match analysis did not look favourably on the way Moyes managed his resources for this match, or how he had them playing.
Amit Vithlani
49   Posted 29/12/2010 at 23:19:06

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Ian - a wank title spoils the rest of the article. You are, sir, out of touch with reality if you honestly believe what you say in that head-line.



His overall time at the helm has veered from the sublime to the ridiculous, and to this I agree. The last week was a micro-cosm - away win against the odds with an excellent tactical approach (especially in the first 20 mins) followed by a defensive approach against a poor team that could only have resulted from a tactical brain freeze.

Kunal - I dont think your F1 analogy works in my book. There is a big difference with Moyes in that he actually constructed the car, putting together components and moulding into a top quality vehicle. As a manager, that is a big part of the job towards getting a team to success. The other part is team selection and tactics and this season, yes, he has failed on with this aspect on a number of occassions, but to overlook his team building is too one sided.

Ian Smitham
50   Posted 29/12/2010 at 23:34:38

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What an interesting debate of differing views. In fact i am just printing all the views so that i can study them later away from the computer. 1-47 inclusive, upto Brian(47) .
Gavin Ramejkis
51   Posted 29/12/2010 at 23:35:42

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Tom #41, people bring up the FA Cup final because Moyes played Osman on the wing in front of Hibbert despite it never working in the past; you must have seen the same as thousands of Evertonians on many previous games with Osman bullied on the wing (he's not a winger), he goes missing and Hibbert was left to control the right hand side against two players. Malouda tore him a new one and despite this Moyes persevered until the game was beyond us. An age old Moyesism, christ it should get an entry in the Oxford Dictionary "Moyesism/Moyesist - verb/adverb to watch the fucking obvious unfold before you and not act for at least an hour if not more and usually too late to make and impact"
Jimmy Hacking
52   Posted 29/12/2010 at 23:46:25

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Too young to remember Billy Bingham. was he really that bad?

That is the only part of this article that has got me even vaguely interested.
Ste Traverse
53   Posted 30/12/2010 at 00:28:32

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I'm no big Moyes fan but anyone thinks he's worse than the hapless Mike Walker is clearly beyond all help.
Paul Conatzer
54   Posted 30/12/2010 at 02:58:34

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I'd say that Billy Bingham gave good service to Everton as both a player and a manager. He was a member of the championship side in 1963 and finished fourth one season. I think his worst finishing position was 11th....So, I would say Bingham wasn't that bad. On the Yak, he's started seven games and in those seven games, Everton have won three and drawn three. Overall, Everton has won four, drawn 10 and lost five. Statistics can be manipulated, but I'd like to see Yak be given a few more games upfront...
Richard Harris
55   Posted 30/12/2010 at 03:08:40

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Mike Walker was out of his depth, Walter Smith brought in some good players, stopped us conceding so many goals (although the dour 0-0s were hard going) and at least gave us some credibility as he was well respected for his experience and achievements.

I liked Billy Bingham but 11th and then a poor start lead to his sacking (can you imagine that now !!). Even Gordon Lee was considered a failure for only finishing 3rd and 4th - how times have changed...

Paul Conatzer
56   Posted 30/12/2010 at 03:52:58

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And there were those who called out Gordon Lee for his cautious style.
Howard Don
57   Posted 30/12/2010 at 08:05:37

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There might have been something worth reading in this OP, but after the totally ridiculous headline, I couldn't be bothered. Don't know how old you are Ian, but I actually remember Walker and believe me Moyes is Pep Guardiola in comparison. Try a little perspective for goodness sake.
Brian Waring
58   Posted 30/12/2010 at 10:05:49

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Simon (#33) 3pts above a relegation spot, that says it's hardly knee - jerk reactions.
Brian Denton
59   Posted 30/12/2010 at 10:43:53

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Jimmy (#52) Bingham was operating in an age when we expected more as Everton fans - for example he broke the British transfer record when we bought Bob Latchford, and but for one game (losing at home to Carlisle after being 2-0 up) would have won the Championship. We also had a chairman who was rich and powerful, and didn't really tolerate 'doing enough'.

Different times, indeed !
Leon Perrin
60   Posted 30/12/2010 at 10:55:47

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The SITUATION is worse because Moyes has been given time. Only Fergie and Wenger have enjoyed more.

As it stands, Bolton, Sunderland, Blackpool, Blackburn, Stoke piss on us from above as well as the re-jigged elite. We're fannying around the wrong end of the table, I said after the Man City "hard on" among the Moyes huggers, the table don't lie.

If you think this is acceptable look forward to Goodison half-empty, you idiots.

Enjoy half-empty Goodison if this shite continues.
Steve Collins
61   Posted 30/12/2010 at 11:13:00

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Ian Edwartds the drama queen. Get a grip lad!!

Worse than Walker not a chance. As for Smith unless he's managing in Scotland he is otherwise hopless. Many a sleepless night following our beloved blues when those two hopeless twats were in charge.

Moyes was a godsend when he first arrived. He got us back on track and stopped the rot. The problem with him now is he has run his course and should walk away.

As #28 put it, though, the board are hopeless and the club are broke so I don't see anything changing real soon. But things are no were near as bad as they were a decade ago ? that's just mental talk.
Simon Jenkins
62   Posted 30/12/2010 at 11:51:44

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#48 Yes Michael, you have been wasting your time a lot lately. I suggest you reign back with some of your views. I find your attacks to be very insulting and needless to be honest. I read all the feedback and the pattern has certainly emerged that when we don't win, Moyes cops flak (to put it succintly). I often think that people do knee-jerk, this website is synomonous with such actions. But then again, these are MY VIEWS that I am ENTITLED to make. I am sorry if this does not toe the Toffeeweb-line.
John Nelson
63   Posted 30/12/2010 at 11:45:49

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Very interesting article. I agree with both editors, although it may seem from the outset very contrasting points.

Lyndon is spot on with making it obvious that Moyes is no way whatsoever worse than Walker and Mr Disappointment (can't comment on Bingham as he was way before my time); however, "pound for pound" comparing to Walker and Smith if you like, Michael is spot on in the fact that Moyes's handling of his resources this season has been nothing short of shocking and totally unacceptable.
Ian Bennett
64   Posted 30/12/2010 at 12:31:25

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Hmmm ? £5M for Heitinga you would get back all day long plus. Felli is worth more than £15M.

His duff ones were Beattie, Krøldrup, Davies and Bily. And to be fair he moved them all pretty quickly when it didn't work out ? other than the flagging Russian.

He has gone through centre-forwards at a fair rate, the question is it better to keep or dump or get next to nothing for Saha, Yak, Vaughan...

One suggestion would be taking on an attack-minded coach ? as the current set up are all ex-defenders which can't help and may explain part of the problem.

However, without cash he had to cash in on someone last summer to generate the cash required to strengthen right wing and up front ? which would have been Rodwell, Jags, Arteta or Felli... A near riot would have ensued?

So, if you want to point the finger, point at the board. The team needs £20M spending on it for a decent striker and right winger ? and they can get their money back when we hit the next problem of the big Belgian not wanting to sign his new deal.

Chris Sillett
65   Posted 30/12/2010 at 12:35:33

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I think January could make or break Moyes. If he does his job and does a bit of Harry Redknapp-esque wheeler dealing and brings in a couple of strikers on loan, we could see all these games we've drawn turn into wins and with the league being so tight this season, a top six finish is still achievable.

If the dour Scot decides that there are no strikers out there that are good enough for us, then in my opinion he should leave the club in the summer. I read his comments the other day that it will be tough to bring anyone in who is better than what we have with feelings of anger and frustration. Does Moyes think Robbie Keane would not be more useful than Yakubu? Does Moyes think that Emmanuel Adebayor or Carlos Vela isn't any better than Beckford? The mind boggles!
James Stewart
66   Posted 30/12/2010 at 13:13:42

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Haha Absolutely perfect definition Gavin "Moyesist"

Hilariously spot on.
Brian Waring
67   Posted 30/12/2010 at 13:01:35

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Simon (#62): "When we don't win, Moyes cops flak" ? What's wrong with that, Simon? Surely if he fucks-up like he did the other night, then he deserves it???

Are we only meant to come onto Toffeeweb when we win, and praise the man?

After the Man city game he recieved loads of credit on here, from me, even from Tony Marsh, and that was because he deserved it, so when he fucks-up, he deserves to be criticised.

Also, you keep mentioning 'knee-jerk' ? well Simon, how can it be knee-jerk, when we are only 3pts above a relegation spot, and have only won 4 games from 19?

Also Simon, you go on to tell Michael "These are my VIEWS that I am ENTITLED to make" ? But then you go on and slag off Ian, with "You destroyed what credibility this article had with that ridicliously untrue title"

So you preach to Michael, about views and entitled, then slag Ian off for his VIEWS, that he is ENTITLED to ? just because the title didn't match your view.

Denis Richardson
68   Posted 30/12/2010 at 12:47:09

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DM is not worse than walker and smith in terms of what he has achieved in the past - expectations being raised because the team has done better.

But I, like a few others, believe he has had his time. A manager cannot stay forever and by the looks of things he cannot take us any further and we are slowly going backwards.

Yes the league is tight and a couple of back to back wins would see us climb up, other way round and we are right back in the drop zone.

However, IMO the ends does not justify the means by starting a game with no recognised striker and then adding insult to injury, not doing anyting about it when it clearly was not working - until it was too late. I cannot imagine any other manager, in any division doing this.

Will see what happens in Jan if Pienaar, Yak, Heitinga etc go - am not holding my breath though as I cannot see the manager changing his negative ways.

Happy new year to all - small crumb of comfort in the Wolves win. Although would much prefer both the citys teams doing well rather than both doing shite.
Ray Roche
69   Posted 30/12/2010 at 13:42:55

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Paul Conatzer @54

The difference is that Moyes has brought some talented FOOTBALLERS, Baines,Pienaar, Atreta etc., whereas Lee wanted to get rid of them, or "fancy-dans" like Duncan Mckenzie, who was (rightly) worshipped by many for his unrivalled skills. Like when he took the piss out of Tommy Smith. He scored one astonishing goal and Lee bollocked him for showboating. "I suppose you'd rather I'd missed" said Duncan. "Yes". said Lee. A miserable twat.
Brian Lawlor
70   Posted 30/12/2010 at 13:41:04

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It is knee jerking as those that are going on about only 4 wins this season are failing to mention it's also only 5 defeats this se ason including 8 away games on the spin unbeaten. Our away record is better than Man Utd. Those people who are banging on about only 4 wins being unacceptable then surely as a direct opposite only 5 defeats is acceptable (the same number as Arsenal by the way). As for being 3 points from relegation, we're in 11th place. We are a good run from being in the European places which is where I'm expecting to be come the end of the season. To be calling for Moyes head is a knee jerk reaction to what has been a frustrating run of results but Moyes and the players will strat converting these draws in to wins and I expect to qualify for Europe this seaosn.
Brian Waring
71   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:05:19

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Brian, Arsenal are 13pts ahead of us,
Man u are 16pts ahead, both with games in hand and a huge goal difference over us.

So it is irrelevant that our away record is better than Man u, and that we have lost the same number of games than Arsenal, because we are still only 3pts above a relegation place.

I could imagine you were saying after 10 games, that we would come good, and you expected us to climb the table???

Brian Lawlor
72   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:40:08

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No Brian I am merely putting things in to perspective rather than just picking and labouring one point I.e only 4 wins in 19. The flip side is we've only lost 5 in 19. Oir problem is we haven't had any forwards firing and thus drawing too many games. So to bang on about only 4 wins this season doesn't tell the whole story.
Lee Courtliff
73   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:59:28

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Brian Lawlor ? I was thinking like you but, to be honest, mate, I am struggling to maintain my optimism! I know we, Moyes, can do better but I don't have the belief anymore.

The World Cup depressed me (big England fan) and this season is finishing me off. I've seen much worse times at Goodison but I can't remember ever feeling so flat!! Even after the Man City win I was still a bit pissed off. There is nowhere to go for us. Europa League football won't give us the money we need. We are a mile behind the top 4 this season. We play with no strikers against a team in the relegation zone!

Some girl just bagged me off 'cos she's getting back with her ex! I'am pissed off!!!! I'am goin' t'pub tonight!!!

Ed Fitzgerald
74   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:07:50

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Simon

People did post concerns after the City game please read the article by Jim Hourigan. Quite a few people including myself expressed the same concerns that people are stating here.
Liam Appleby
75   Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:09:18

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"worse than aids, worse than famine, worse than civil wars."

Ian Edwards follow up article, discussing UNICEF.

(equally as mental)
Brian Lawlor
76   Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:39:03

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Ha ha Liam. Quality!
Steve Smith
77   Posted 31/12/2010 at 01:00:05

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I read the headline, then read your article, I haven't read any of the replies, but the headline tells me you're a bit frustrated.

You're a Blue so I respect your opinion... but I also think you're totally wrong.

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