Of the last 30 domestic trophies, 26 have been won by the Sky Four. Three of the others are League Cup winners ? when top sides usually play their second string. Where does that leave the rest of us, and what does this mean to fans of 'second tier' clubs?
This position is a complete contrast to pre-Sky days before the allocation of money was so completely polarised and top heavy. In the 60s, 70s and 80s teams came into a new season with at least a hope of challenging for the top spots. This was due to the more even distribution of talent, money and resources. Teams tended to retain their best players and the rich clubs in the top tier weren't stratospherically more wealthy than the rest. Managers would get the edge by getting the most out of their players, and this would be reflected in results and in league position.
Winning trophies is a now a reflection of how much money you can spend in the market. Managerial influence as an indicator of success is reduced in a way which never existed pre 1990s. Cash influence is arguably greater than that of any individual manager. It's the opposite of homogenisation, with the rich cream rising to the top and the rest sitting below en masse.
Moyes has the best Premier League record outside the top four and his spend is way down on others. We have a better record than Tottenham, better than Villa and the rest. Sadly, City will inevitably take on this mantle by virtue of their riches, add in Chelsea and you see the two most obvious examples of what direct cash injection does. On the flipside its warming to see Liverpool flapping around, but they are another team who will probably buy their way back.
I dont want to get into all the points of the pro-/anti-Moyes debates but, whatever your view, it is worth considering Moyes's spending in comparison to others, and our relative premier performances over the past six or seven years. The table below shows the total spend for each Premier League club and, perhaps more importantly, their net spend since 2003.
|#||Net Spend||Purchased Gross||Sold||Nett||Per Season|
|(2003 to present)||(Buys Gross)|
|10||West Bromwich Albion||£70,085,000||£37,190,000||£32,895,000||£4,111,875|
It's no surprise who spends big and who (generally) gets most in terms of trophies (Note:- Man Utd's NET spend is distorted somewhat by the sale of Ronaldo). Whatever comparison you make with the Blues, involving whichever team, it stands out as painful reminder of the relative status of our great club.
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:14:04
Can you please come up with a similar caveat that will explain away the Arsenal numbers too, as they seem to be something of an 'outlier' ? although Arsenal haven't won very much recently, to be honest.
Someone must have shown the equivalent table to Moyes just before the FA Cup Final in 2009. After all, you follow this dubious logic, and it explains why we had no chance of winning that match.
Or beating moneybags City the other night.
2 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:26:33
3 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:24:25
4 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:29:49
For the time being i don't give a flying fuck about trophies. Just some decent football will do for starters.
5 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:28:55
6 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:20:50
If he only followed the Allardyce - Moyes - McCarthy model like the other non entities "boot it hard, boot it far" you'd have a fair point.
It's a real pisser, just because he has real ability it makes the rest look like twats.
7 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:37:39
8 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:35:55
All the talk about missing chances is hogwash ? we are not creating as many chances as the above mentioned teams and others. I reckon we are playing a bit better than Aston Villa, West Ham and Birmingham and on the same level as Fulham and YES Liverpool who are also in the doldrums.
9 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:49:41
10 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:47:26
How in gods name am I picking "rediculous holes" in the post?
So let's get this straight. You would be happy to go along the way we are as long as Davey boy picks up his self appreciation society awards?
After Moyes emphatic "Best squad I have ever had" statement, where's the football to match?
11 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:58:07
Explain the Blackpool phenomena then.
12 Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:55:20
He has won the LMA award for a third of his time here. That's impressive. It was voted by fellow managers who are more in the know than non-match goers like you. He was also in to double figures for MotM so he must be doing something right.
Also, did you not read this article or look at the spending table? 26 of the last 30 trophies have been won by the top 4 and we are only the 13th highest spenders. What are you saying, we should have won the League and Champions League? The FACTS are we are punching well above our weight and certain supporters need a good injection of realism.
13 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:06:05
Seen it all before with Hull and Burnley.
Seasons are played over 38 games, not 17.
14 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:06:19
The point I was trying to make is if Moyes was such a bad manager who wouldn't have won these awards. The fact is (even with his negative tactics, substitutions etc.) he has massively over achieved.
15 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:04:35
We are in transition to a better football team; there is, however, an obvious flaw in the team. Even the inept pundits have spotted it. We have an ageing striker with a poor attitude, a striker who has been struck by a severe injury, and a striker who has not played in the premier league before and can't hold the ball up. Solution buy a better striker ? simple right? ... No. Moyes had no money in the summer, so he bought three strikers in on free transfers, all of whom are not yet Premier League standard. What should he do? He must be so frustrated. More importantly what would a new manager do without any money and the same team?
He has won three Manager of the Year awards without winning a trophy so he must be doing something right. The man has worked tirelessly to get us where we are ? cut him some slack.
16 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:11:58
So let's see what the rest of the season holds then.
By the way, on paper, player for player, I would suggest we have more than enough talent to comfortably beat the teams you have mentioned.
Again I refer you to Moyes's classic quote.
17 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:17:48
18 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:29:41
19 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:47:30
20 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:41:25
Why doesn't Kenwright get the same grief as Moyes?
21 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:44:57
He never won it! He was voted for by the other managers.
It is not a prestigious award, it is a mutual appreciation society. I bet the likes of Fergie or Wenger would swap their domestic trophies for one of them any day of the week............
22 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:42:50
Sorry Sean I think that statement smacks a sign of desperation, you are seriously clutching straws here. Are you serious?? What next? ? the number of Manager of the Month awards he's had?
A little recognition from fellow managers does by no means remotely compensate for not winning any silverware.
23 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:53:26
I hate comparisons with the redshite but it will be interesting to see just how long their manager (whose team is currently on the same points & same goal difference as Everton) lasts this season.
24 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:01:45
Thankfully we have some aces in the Marketing Department, striving to bring in all that much needed revenue, Philip Green ready to inject some of his tax hidden cash and a secret weapon ready to set the Premier League alight....
... Only, we don't.
25 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:03:18
26 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:27:57
But sustained season long kick-ons need BETTER PLAYERS. To buy better players, Moyes needs to spend ACTUAL MONEY.
It's really not hard to fathom.
Spurs kicked on from 5th and overtook us, as did City. Both have spent real money to do so. Getting rid of Moyes is not the answer.
27 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:30:52
28 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:34:52
29 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:26:00
I've looked at the spending table Brian, hence responding to this article and the sycophants happy to sit in mediocrity. Have you looked at the present EPL table? Have you watched any games this season Brian? We for all our austerity are shite, teams like Blackpool and West Brom who are running from a much more austere position than our own are out-footballing us.
If your point about statistics is merely an excuse to accompany the mediocrity it's falling on deaf ears that don't give a rats arse for stats as they can be organised to point out anything your want to display. How about creating a statistical table for present EPL teams and the game time their strikers have played this season, add a final column showing goals for those strikers. The table will look fairly damning in that many teams this season have played two strikers for most of the game or brought a second striker on for a large portion of a game.
30 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:42:01
31 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:42:51
These comparisons are not an indicator of how successful you are on the pitch, Manu - 8th & Arsenal 19th in this table.
Our first team are now worth a lot more than we paid for them. Just look at our midfield, you could also sell Jagielka and Baines for a combined £ 30- 35 million in my opinion. This is another reason why these figures are so misleading. We are underperforming, and we all know it.
32 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:52:17
Using the manager of the year as an excuse for an achievement with regards EFC is a pitifull embarrassment mate.
Must have missed the open top bus when that one was paraded.
33 Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:51:31
So while Moyes has compiled a better squad than either there remains ample scope for improvement in making far better use of that squad.
34 Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:48:13
In 64 years of supporting Everton, I have never heard of so much nonesense talked about a manager, who looks to me as if he couldn't give a shite if we did go down.
For the people who say he's got no money.If he cares for this club like you think he does, why doesn't he stand up to that other prick kenwright? He knows he won't get sacked.
What did kenwright say about moyes? he's the best manager in the world? He must live in a very small world.
Sorry for the rant, but it makes my blood boil,when you see making excuses after a game, when he knows that he contributes a lot to our poor results.
35 Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:20:53
But, all I ( IMO ) think your trying to do is cover for Moyes' failings.
Especially where you say
" If he bought a better quality of player ( For a lot more money ) we'd have a better team capable of beating the likes of Newcastle, West Brom, Blackburn, and draws against Wigan, Bolton, West Ham etc " Now for me, that seems like an excuse for Moyes, or your actually saying that the team Moyes has put togethor, and that he said were capable of challenging the top 4, isen't actually that good.
36 Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:13:48
26 out of 30 titles won by the richest clubs - a coincidence?
Man City second in the league after years of obscurity - a coincidence?
Villa sliding down the table after selling and not replacing their best players - a coincidence?
Chelsea struggling now Roman has stopped buying - another coincidence?
We won things when we were relatively rich compared to our competitors, and we don't now we are relatively poor - yet another coincidence?
But if you don't believe that money IN GENERAL OVER TIME leads to success, you probably also still believe that the earth is flat.
By the way, the fact that, ON SOME DAYS poorer clubs beat richer clubs does not as a simple matter of logic invalidate the truth that IN GENERAL OVER TIME richer clubs do better.
On some days it is colder in Liverpool in winter than in Moscow. But Moscow has always been colder in general in winter than Liverpool, and it will be for the forseeable future. Exceptions do not invalidate repeated general rules.
It is also the case that the correlation between money and performance, whilst of course generally holding, is not completely linear and cast iron over short periods. Poorer clubs can do a bit better or worse than their resources would suggest; and so can richer. There are cup shocks. Expensive purchases do not always perform as hoped or expected (ask Rafa Benitez).
Although in the end, as we see, money counts. Whatever is happening now, Blackpool will not be competing in the Champions League anytime soon, unless they are bought by someone very rich.
For Moyes, I would say that it is pretty much undisputable (and only really disputed on Toffeeweb) that he has consistently had Everton out-performing (moderately) relative to his resources for most of his time as manager. That is certainly an achievement. No other Premiership manager can claim the same over the past decade.
This season unfortunately, so far, the out-performance has stopped.
Although even that is most easily explained by the fact that this summer for the first time under Moyes we had no money to bring in anyone at all. We usually get at least one £8M+ player. If that had been a striker this summer, things would probably look rather different.
It would be utterly extraordinary if having more money to buy better players did not generally lead to greater success. As John showed above: it does.
37 Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:32:59
Fascinated at how poles apart we are in watching the same games.
Are you in the obscured view seats?
38 Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:51:10
39 Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:12:38
40 Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:13:37
At the start of the season, I thought possibly a Europa League spot... how stupid was I? I will settle now to see some football at Goodison sometime this season. Moyes has completely lost the plot and I am totally embarassed to see what has happened to our club.
Finally just compare our performance at West Ham to how Spurs played at Villa. A manager who sets his team up properly and gets the basics right ? Moyes inevitably sets up the team to fail with his negative and now old-fashioned tactics.
41 Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:19:44
One more thing - let's not get carried away by all these comparisons with other managers whose clubs string a few good perfomances together, When Holloway et al have done if for half a dozen years plus in the Prem like Moyes, it will be a fairer comparison.
For what it's worth, my guess is that only Coyle amongst those mentioned is the real deal and destined for big things. But we will see.
I think where Moyes really slipped up was not being bolder in the transfer market and letting Saha, Yakubu and Pienaar go in the summer. The first two were pretty obviously past their sell by dates. Pienaar is excellent, but we would have screwed some money out of the always extravagant Redknapp. The squad needed some freshening up, and Moyes flunked it.
42 Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:22:30
43 Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:36:13
The article illustrates just one yardstick to measure Moyes' achievements..... It is by no means definitive nor all-encompassing, but it does show a glaring disparity in the financial clout and outlay of all the clubs. Some people still seem to think we are the Mersey-millionaires when in fact we are relative paupers, and an absolute shadow of our former selves. It is decades since we dined at that table, yet some fans still expect a level of achievement even further in advance of our current status.
The real issue is Moyes has engineered a squad that got us within striking distance of the gravy train that has sustained the chosen few for the past 15 years or so. The fact that he achieved this repeatedly on such a limited budget, and from such a low starting point is only commendable. We have been the best of the rest over the past few years.
However, having reached that point, with the objective in sight, where has the financial support gone when we've needed it the most? How many fruitless transfer deadlines have passed when we have been so close to genuinely competing? Unfortunately, the opportunity seems to have passed us by, and Moyes( or whoever else) will have to continue the thankless task of building something with nothing yet again..... and that quite frankly is where we're at!
Contrary to popular belief on this site, the current performances are very far from the worst I've ever seen. Some of the passing and high possession footy of the past 12 months has been the best we've had for years IMO. However, the result-led opinion will only ever register contentment with WINS, even ugly ones with barely 2 passes strung together.
Rest assured, 3 or 4 scrappy 1-0 wins against the run of play will deter all talk of sycophants, and worst manager ever threads.
44 Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:31:11
On topic, it's all about getting a return on an investment and the interesting aspect of the Moyes debate is that accusations of making bad investments on players are lacking. It's tactics all the time, but the lack of resources even influences the tactics. He clearly doesn't rate his current set of strikers, so he doesn't play them. If a player is not performing, he can't replace or rotate due to a lack of options; same when making substitutions.
If they want to deny this obvious truth, that is their prerogative.
45 Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:54:00
Further you state: "If a player is not performing he can't replace or rotate due to a lack of options." Again, Moyes signed all of the options. Are you suggesting that Moyes should bear no responsibility for the performances of his own chosen players?
46 Posted 30/12/2010 at 19:10:53
Moyes squad consists of 21 over age players and Jack Rodwell. He has 22 players to choose from he is four down on his contemporaries.
"Are you suggesting that Moyes should bear no responsibility for the performances of his own chosen players?"
No Brian, but context is important. If he has a bigger budget he has more choices, there is no budget so its make and mend and 12th place.
47 Posted 30/12/2010 at 19:10:43
Brian, I'm one of the fans who calls it has he sees it not some kiss-arse scared of change or worried that some bullshit about change is bad ? what the fuck happened when we got shut of negative Walter Smith?
We've gone full circle to negative David Moyes so should we just stick it out "FACT" ? (Christ, you love that word don't you?) because DM has some tinpot awards?
48 Posted 30/12/2010 at 19:41:19
49 Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:03:26
50 Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:03:26
It may be still possible to be successful without money, but it's highly unlikely. John's article proves that any manager operating on a shoe string is at an obvious disadvantage.
Brian ? breaking news... Moyes left them all out last week at Eastlands too and Cahill played in midfield
Regular observers Know Big Vic will play and if he doesnt do it, Moyes will fuck him off too... I`m starting to respect the Guy.
I`m sick of these These gobshite players getting away with fucken murder.
51 Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:23:52
It's a shame really, I would love to see Bily play in his natural position.
52 Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:23:02
I think the guy lifted it from the Fink Tank at the Times and, as sad as it seems, there was very little bucking of the trend between higher wages and position/success ? notably we did it with our top 4 finish.
I've tried to get to it but the Times has gone subscription and I refuse to pay Mr Murdoch!
53 Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:52:30
54 Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:41:14
Jan 08 - Income: £4.75 million, Expenditure: £1 million.
June-Aug 08 - Income: £10.5 million, Expenditure: £12.9 million.
Jan 09 - No income or expenditure.
June-Aug 09 - Income: £24 million, Expenditure: £20.1 million
Jan 10 - Income: £1 million, Expenditure; Nil
Jun-Aug 10 - Income: Nil, Expenditure: £1.4 million.
Total Income over this period is £40.25 million. Total Expenditure is £35.40 million. Net Spend is - £4.85 million.
This is the financial reality that David Moyes has had to work with since finishing 6th, 5th & 5th in the league and this is the time when the Board should have been finding money to invest in the team; instead, the net spend is a negative one of almost £5 million!! Whatever his failings as a manager, there can be no doubt where the main finger of blame should be placed ? the board!!
55 Posted 30/12/2010 at 22:25:47
"Rest assured, 3 or 4 scrappy 1-0 wins against the run of play will deter all talk of sycophants, and worst manager ever threads." ? Pardon me but can you please point me in the general direction of these "3 or 4" wins? I seem to have gotten a tad confused here. Are we talking about the same Everton that play sideways, predictable football and barely look a threat?
And correct me if I am wrong but is it not also the same Everton who have leaked sloppy goals all season and look incapable of weathering a sustained period of pressure from an opposing team?
Not to mention the individual errors that have been the theme since Howard's shocking howler against Blackburn.
Apart from that: yeah, great... cannot wait to see us get these "3 or 4" wins. No danger.
56 Posted 30/12/2010 at 22:44:04
To date, the club has proved to be the single exception to the rule that, if you are not a member of the wealthy elite, then you can expect to drop out of the top flight, take a turn in the lower divisions, and join all the other outcasts in trying to fight your way back up again.
David Moyes's critics make many valid points on these threads, but I think that you have to give the guy credit for his perseverance and resourcefulness in the face of the restrictions which have confronted him, year-in, year-out, since his arrival.
57 Posted 30/12/2010 at 23:33:17
"Are we talking about the same Everton that play sideways, predictable footaball and barely look a threat?"
Sorry, I was under the impression that for most games this season and/or 2010 we have produced lots of scoring chances. On most occasions, plenty more than the opposition, and certainly far more than we used to.
"And correct me if I am wrong but is it not also the same Everton who have leaked sloppy goals all season and look incapabable of weathering a sustained period of pressure from an opposing team?"
Incapable? Man City, with 10 men? You're correct in a way though, because apart from that, not sure how many teams have put us under sustained pressure in this season of supposed "worst evers"....
Does that mean I'm contented with our current performances? Of course not... but it's far from the depths some are trying to portray. Our biggest problem is that we are toothless upfront, and teams have gotten wise to this... any increase in quality upfront could see a great improvement in the "all-important" results, and performances generally.
58 Posted 31/12/2010 at 12:08:06
How about the fact that when Arsene Wenger took over in 1996, he took over a side that had finished 5th and had the best back four in the country and Dennis Bergkamp and Ian Wright upfront.
He won the title adding only Viera and Pettit. He then sells these two players, together with Overmars, for a huge profit on the back of Arsenal's title winning sequence. Since then, with little money to spend, Arsenal have not won a trophy and some supporters are calling for Wenger's head. Sound familiar?
Also, Arsenal were under performing when he took over and with a few additions they became Champions.
Thereafter, as one of the league's top clubs, he has attracted some of the best young players in Europe to the club at lower transfer costs and these players have gone on to make the first team and become world class players. Do you honestly believe Cesc Fabregas would have joined Everton as a 16-year-old unless we were challenging for the tite?
Now let's look at Moyes. Inherits probably one of the worst squads in the club's history. How many of those players would have made it into Arsenal's XI? Only Rooney.
Finally, Arsenal have more revenues (and more debt) than Everton. They are able to sustain a higher wage bill than Everton.
They sell players when they want to ? Henry, Viera, Lujungberg, Pires, Campbell all left when they were pretty much on the way down. He fought off Barcelona's interest in Fabregas.
Compare this to Moyes. United want Rooney and... they get Rooney. City want Lescott and... they get Lescott. Pienaar wants higher wages and... he is about to run down his contract.
59 Posted 31/12/2010 at 14:22:12
Moyes? (with substantially more money)... Not so much.
60 Posted 31/12/2010 at 16:26:08
- Wenger started with a much better team Had a bigger wage bill to play with.
Moyes has spent £3M more than Wenger each season, on a lower wage bill, turning relegation fodder into European contenders.
Wenger has taken an underperforming team with a big wage bill to where it should be ? challenging for the title.
So how has Moyes done worse?
The answer, in my opinion, is that he hasn't.
61 Posted 31/12/2010 at 20:53:21
62 Posted 31/12/2010 at 22:05:19
Looking at the table I'd add Villa and Liverpool to the present top 5 as above us resource wise. I should have added Stoke, Newcastle and Sunderland but I just couldn't bring myself to ask is 11th the new 1st.
The point is if we accept our shitness surely it might lighten the load. If we reach 8th would anyone else chip in a quid to buy a trophy suitably inscribed?
Also where can you hire open-topped double-deckers?
63 Posted 31/12/2010 at 22:17:00
I think the discussion is about Net investment in players. You are talking gross numbers.
"Whatever your view, it is worth considering Moyes's spending in comparison to others, and our relative premier performances over the past six or seven years. The table below shows the total spend for each Premier League club and, perhaps more importantly, their net spend since 2003."
Everton (Net) £25,950,500
Arsenal (Net) £-2,320,000
What that means, Graham, is that David Moyes has gone through substantially more money on balance, £28M more than Wenger. Yet Wenger has done a far better job, which should not be the case if the point of the OP is to have any meaning.
64 Posted 31/12/2010 at 22:21:52
I believe Moyes has been outstanding compared to the budget he has had to spend. However, I think the wheel fell off when he was negotiating his contract and Lescott decided to jump ship. Since then, all of the dignity and principle seems to be unravelling at a pace.
He is now taking his frustration out on the players with many public criticisms ? something he would never have done before ? and his bizarre team selections are almost as if he is making a point to the board.
The club is always bigger than the manager or any player and, while I think we will struggle without him and I cant think of any better with the meagre resources, I do feel he is ready to go.
65 Posted 31/12/2010 at 22:55:13
thanks for the analysis it make interesting reading .
Happy New Year everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
66 Posted 01/01/2011 at 00:51:44
He has, I agree, spent a much larger amount than he got in ? because he got in a piddling amount for the players he sold compared to Arsenal's sales (£80M v £149M). He actually spent £41M less (nearly £6M per year for each of the 7 years). He was buying players for the same football league as Arsenal over those 7 years but was operating in a completely different financial league and comparisons of net spend are meaningless in gauging whether he has done a better/worse job than our French friend.
67 Posted 02/01/2011 at 18:56:59
None of this takes away from the facts I know to be patently true, which is that David Moyes is currently doing an absolutely dreadful job of mananging the tremendous resources he has in his squad ? in his words, the best squad he has had in his time at Everton.
The real issue is Moyes's performance as Manager of Everton FC. I find this money excuse trotted out by his sycophants both sickening and pathetic when used to explain away the dreadful tactics, moribund gameplans and hopeless substitution strategy Moyes has demonstrated for a very long time in his hugely well-compensated post as Everton manager.
But perhaps you're happy with that, because he's "cash-strapped"?
68 Posted 03/01/2011 at 19:31:06
I think you are spot on with 'dreadful tactics, moribund gameplans and hopeless substitution strategy' by the way but they have got shag all to do with his net spend.
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