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You spend, you win

By John Ford :  30/12/2010 :  Comments (68) :
Despite David Moyes's tactical flaws and hesitancy, I for one recognise what he has done for our club, and has done so in virtually impossible circumstances. Success in the modern game is relative, it has to be, otherwise we would go demented. A top six place is considered a success, a good cup run has great value to us, a win against a 'top club' is a special day.

Of the last 30 domestic trophies, 26 have been won by the Sky Four. Three of the others are League Cup winners ? when top sides usually play their second string. Where does that leave the rest of us, and what does this mean to fans of 'second tier' clubs?

This position is a complete contrast to pre-Sky days before the allocation of money was so completely polarised and top heavy. In the 60s, 70s and 80s teams came into a new season with at least a hope of challenging for the top spots. This was due to the more even distribution of talent, money and resources. Teams tended to retain their best players and the rich clubs in the top tier weren't stratospherically more wealthy than the rest. Managers would get the edge by getting the most out of their players, and this would be reflected in results and in league position.

Winning trophies is a now a reflection of how much money you can spend in the market. Managerial influence as an indicator of success is reduced in a way which never existed pre 1990s. Cash influence is arguably greater than that of any individual manager. It's the opposite of homogenisation, with the rich cream rising to the top and the rest sitting below en masse.

Moyes has the best Premier League record outside the top four and his spend is way down on others. We have a better record than Tottenham, better than Villa and the rest. Sadly, City will inevitably take on this mantle by virtue of their riches, add in Chelsea and you see the two most obvious examples of what direct cash injection does. On the flipside its warming to see Liverpool flapping around, but they are another team who will probably buy their way back.

I dont want to get into all the points of the pro-/anti-Moyes debates but, whatever your view, it is worth considering Moyes's spending in comparison to others, and our relative premier performances over the past six or seven years. The table below shows the total spend for each Premier League club and, perhaps more importantly, their net spend since 2003.

# Net Spend  Purchased Gross Sold Nett Per Season
  (2003 to present) (Buys Gross)      
1 Manchester City £448,220,000 £86,575,000 £361,645,000 £45,205,625
2 Chelsea £448,700,000 £135,400,000 £313,300,000 £39,162,500
3 Tottenham £290,900,000 £163,250,000 £127,650,000 £15,956,250
4 Liverpool £278,230,000 £179,730,000 £98,500,000 £12,312,500
5 Aston Villa £147,200,000 £68,625,000 £78,575,000 £9,821,875
6 Sunderland £121,730,000 £62,950,000 £58,780,000 £7,347,500
7 Birmingham City £100,125,000 £43,725,000 £56,400,000 £7,050,000
8 Manchester United £260,850,000 £214,900,000 £45,950,000 £5,743,750
9 Stoke City £53,345,000 £13,495,000 £39,850,000 £4,981,250
10 West Bromwich Albion £70,085,000 £37,190,000 £32,895,000 £4,111,875
11 Wolves £44,775,000 £16,625,000 £28,150,000 £3,518,750
12 Bolton £53,750,000 £26,850,000 £26,900,000 £3,362,500
13 Everton £106,050,500 £80,100,000 £25,950,500 £3,243,813
14 Fulham £72,980,000 £47,045,000 £25,935,000 £3,241,875
15 Newcastle £130,350,000 £109,900,000 £20,450,000 £2,556,250
16 West Ham £111,230,000 £98,925,000 £12,305,000 £1,538,125
17 Blackpool £3,700,000 £350,000 £3,350,000 £418,750
18 Wigan  £71,965,000 £74,000,000 -£2,035,000 -£254,375
19 Arsenal £147,050,000 £149,370,000 -£2,320,000 -£290,000
20 Blackburn Rovers £65,702,000 £83,540,000 -£17,838,000 -£2,229,750
  Middlesbrough £76,900,000 £64,550,000 £12,350,000 £1,543,750
  Hull £23,780,000 £10,475,000 £13,305,000 £1,663,125
  Burnley £15,005,000 £15,825,000 -£820,000 -£102,500
  Portsmouth £95,600,000 £116,260,000 -£20,660,000 -£2,582,500
  Leeds United £5,900,000 £40,250,000 -£34,350,000 -£4,293,750

It's no surprise who spends big and who (generally) gets most in terms of trophies (Note:- Man Utd's NET spend is distorted somewhat by the sale of Ronaldo). Whatever comparison you make with the Blues, involving whichever team, it stands out as painful reminder of the relative status of our great club.

Reader Comments

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Michael Kenrick
1   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:14:04

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Nice try, John ? I especially like the note about Ronaldo "skewing" the Man Utd numbers.

Can you please come up with a similar caveat that will explain away the Arsenal numbers too, as they seem to be something of an 'outlier' ? although Arsenal haven't won very much recently, to be honest.

Someone must have shown the equivalent table to Moyes just before the FA Cup Final in 2009. After all, you follow this dubious logic, and it explains why we had no chance of winning that match.

Or beating moneybags City the other night.
Jonathan Martin
2   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:26:33

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Very interesting... also gives a lie to the fact that so many clubs are allegedly "selling" clubs these days. Only 6 of the 25 clubs listed show a net deficit - so the other 19 are clearly buying clubs (i.e. someone is footing that bill).
Brian Waring
3   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:24:25

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Nice one John, but it doesn't explain how we get beat by Newcastle, West Brom, Blackburn, draws against Wigan, Bolton, West Ham etc.
Dave Lynch
4   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:29:49

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So the relative status of the club is the reason we are playing SHITE football?

For the time being i don't give a flying fuck about trophies. Just some decent football will do for starters.
Brian Lawlor
5   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:28:55

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Spot on John. This table merely highlights the remarkable and consistent achievements of David Moyes and why he has won all of the awards he has. Still I'm sure the haters are going to try and pick ridiculous holes in this a la the post above.
Leon Perrin
6   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:20:50

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Yeah, that Wenger idiot, going his own way.

If he only followed the Allardyce - Moyes - McCarthy model like the other non entities "boot it hard, boot it far" you'd have a fair point.

It's a real pisser, just because he has real ability it makes the rest look like twats.

Damned unfair.
Gavin Ramejkis
7   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:37:39

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Brian #5 DM has won all those awards - 3 LMAs from the votes of other managers, the club has won fuck all silverware since 1995, DM has led a team to one final in nearly nine years. To all the loved up, some credence with the stats you are thriving on please.
Trevor Lynes
8   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:35:55

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I wholeheartedly agree with Dave Lynch... decent football is something we deserve and when I see the Blackpools, West Broms and YES ? even Wolves playing good, quick football that is entertaining to watch I wonder what is happening with our team. We cannot do the basics and the crossing apart from Baines is abysmal.

All the talk about missing chances is hogwash ? we are not creating as many chances as the above mentioned teams and others. I reckon we are playing a bit better than Aston Villa, West Ham and Birmingham and on the same level as Fulham and YES Liverpool who are also in the doldrums.

Simon Jenkins
9   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:49:41

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#3 Brian, it does actually, because if he bought a better quality of player (for a lot more money), we'd have a better team, capable of beating the likes of Newcastle, West brom, Blackburn, draws against Wigan, Bolton, West Ham etc.
Dave Lynch
10   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:47:26

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Brian @5.

How in gods name am I picking "rediculous holes" in the post?

So let's get this straight. You would be happy to go along the way we are as long as Davey boy picks up his self appreciation society awards?

After Moyes emphatic "Best squad I have ever had" statement, where's the football to match?
Dave Lynch
11   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:58:07

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Simon @9.
Explain the Blackpool phenomena then.
Brian Lawlor
12   Posted 30/12/2010 at 14:55:20

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Gavin - I'm sorry to disappoint you but Moyes didn't join Everton until 2001.

He has won the LMA award for a third of his time here. That's impressive. It was voted by fellow managers who are more in the know than non-match goers like you. He was also in to double figures for MotM so he must be doing something right.

Also, did you not read this article or look at the spending table? 26 of the last 30 trophies have been won by the top 4 and we are only the 13th highest spenders. What are you saying, we should have won the League and Champions League? The FACTS are we are punching well above our weight and certain supporters need a good injection of realism.

Simon Jenkins
13   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:06:05

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#11 Dave - first season in the Premiership, everyone on a high, surprise package.

Seen it all before with Hull and Burnley.

Seasons are played over 38 games, not 17.
Brian Lawlor
14   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:06:19

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Dave - I wasn't referring to your post. There were several posts added while I was typing mine.

The point I was trying to make is if Moyes was such a bad manager who wouldn't have won these awards. The fact is (even with his negative tactics, substitutions etc.) he has massively over achieved.

Sean Stevenson
15   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:04:35

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The reaction to Everton's season has been unbelievable. I can understand that if you are unhappy and you only have one option of showing your displeasure you are going to use it, but if you look at it rationally, removing Moyes is not the answer. A man who has brought the team from the bottom of the premiership to the level of a respectable and decent top 6 team should not be sacked because we have not reached the top 6 in the first half of a season or have not beaten a number of average sides. The team is playing much better football now than when in years passed (notably even when we finished 4th).

We are in transition to a better football team; there is, however, an obvious flaw in the team. Even the inept pundits have spotted it. We have an ageing striker with a poor attitude, a striker who has been struck by a severe injury, and a striker who has not played in the premier league before and can't hold the ball up. Solution buy a better striker ? simple right? ... No. Moyes had no money in the summer, so he bought three strikers in on free transfers, all of whom are not yet Premier League standard. What should he do? He must be so frustrated. More importantly what would a new manager do without any money and the same team?

He has won three Manager of the Year awards without winning a trophy so he must be doing something right. The man has worked tirelessly to get us where we are ? cut him some slack.
Dave Lynch
16   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:11:58

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Simon @ 13.
So let's see what the rest of the season holds then.

By the way, on paper, player for player, I would suggest we have more than enough talent to comfortably beat the teams you have mentioned.

Again I refer you to Moyes's classic quote.
Brian Waring
17   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:17:48

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So Simon, how did we beat Man City, the shite and Birmingham (who spent more than us) get credible draws against Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs... also Sunderland ? who spent more than us?
Lee Courtliff
18   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:29:41

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Moyes joined us in 2002 not 2001. If we are getting into stats then lets do it properly or not at all. March 2002. The Age of Moyes began!!!
Brian Lawlor
19   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:47:30

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I meant 2001-02 season, of course.
David S Shaw
20   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:41:25

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The table says to me how much they relied on sales of Rooney and Lescott.

Why doesn't Kenwright get the same grief as Moyes?
Dave Lynch
21   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:44:57

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Let's get this Manager of the Year award put to bed.

He never won it! He was voted for by the other managers.

It is not a prestigious award, it is a mutual appreciation society. I bet the likes of Fergie or Wenger would swap their domestic trophies for one of them any day of the week............
Kunal Desai
22   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:42:50

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@Sean - "He has won three Manager of the Year awards without winning a trophy so he must be doing something right".

Sorry Sean I think that statement smacks a sign of desperation, you are seriously clutching straws here. Are you serious?? What next? ? the number of Manager of the Month awards he's had?

A little recognition from fellow managers does by no means remotely compensate for not winning any silverware.

Michael Kenrick
23   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:53:26

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It amazes me that Evertonians are seeking out statistics to justify how poor we are. Think about it. Mediocrity over NSNO.

I hate comparisons with the redshite but it will be interesting to see just how long their manager (whose team is currently on the same points & same goal difference as Everton) lasts this season.

Liam Reilly
24   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:01:45

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£3M a season, (that's not funny is it) and mortgaged to the hilt based on future earnings....

Thankfully we have some aces in the Marketing Department, striving to bring in all that much needed revenue, Philip Green ready to inject some of his tax hidden cash and a secret weapon ready to set the Premier League alight....

... Only, we don't.
Steve Guy
25   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:03:18

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Michael, if you hate comparisons, don't make them. The current status of Liverpool is only useful for a bit of schaudenfreude. Where they are and how they got there bears no comparison with us at all. That said I agree with your point re NSNO; Holloway, Wenger and others demonstrate that astute management can get results. Moyes has done just that in the past, but he made poor decisions in the summer of 2010 and is now reaping the resulting whirlwind.
Simon Jenkins
26   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:27:57

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#17 Brian - we are capable of one off wins against anyone.

But sustained season long kick-ons need BETTER PLAYERS. To buy better players, Moyes needs to spend ACTUAL MONEY.

It's really not hard to fathom.

Spurs kicked on from 5th and overtook us, as did City. Both have spent real money to do so. Getting rid of Moyes is not the answer.
Simon Jenkins
27   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:30:52

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If people want to talk comparisons, look at a club like Aston Villa and how they are faring after getting rid of their manager O'Neill. They are in a downward spiral, players rebelling, truly dismal results, awful football, no money being spent (despite being owned by a richer man than NK) and real relegation trouble. I fear that is what awaits us if Moyes is forced out for the sins of others, namely no investment to change things.
Brian Lawlor
28   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:34:52

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"He never won it. He was voted for..." Dear oh dear. So Neville Southall never won the PFA footballer of the year, he was voted for, Reid never won the Football Writers Player of the year, he was voted for..., Christiano Ronaldo never won the European Footballer of Year, he was voted for...Cameron never won the general election, he was voted for...Matt Cardle never won X Factor he was voted for... Pathetic. Anything to criticise Moyes and his achievements. Simply embarassing.
Gavin Ramejkis
29   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:26:00

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Brian, I know when Moyes joined Everton (your point???) I mentioned he hasn't won a tap in nine years. I can't say I've ever boasted with any of my footballing friends of an LMA or Manager of the Month as they are fucking pointless backslapping awards.

I've looked at the spending table Brian, hence responding to this article and the sycophants happy to sit in mediocrity. Have you looked at the present EPL table? Have you watched any games this season Brian? We for all our austerity are shite, teams like Blackpool and West Brom who are running from a much more austere position than our own are out-footballing us.

If your point about statistics is merely an excuse to accompany the mediocrity it's falling on deaf ears that don't give a rats arse for stats as they can be organised to point out anything your want to display. How about creating a statistical table for present EPL teams and the game time their strikers have played this season, add a final column showing goals for those strikers. The table will look fairly damning in that many teams this season have played two strikers for most of the game or brought a second striker on for a large portion of a game.
Brian Lawlor
30   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:42:01

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As a season ticket holder and match goer, I've seen every game of ours Gavin. We have well in most games and just not managed to score anywhere the goals we should be which have resulted in us drawing so many games. My point is that if Moyes was such a bad manager he wouldn't have the awards he has - FACT. When (if ever) was the last time you were actually there supporting the team or are you won of these cyber fans who knee jerks after every bad result?
Kevin Tully
31   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:42:51

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There is a flaw comparing net spend of clubs and the talent of managers. If a manager spends £ 106 mill. on players ( as shown ) then that is his team, players he believes in. He will then set out his team in his vision of how the game should be played. So who he sold and how much he got for them is then irrelevant.

These comparisons are not an indicator of how successful you are on the pitch, Manu - 8th & Arsenal 19th in this table.

Our first team are now worth a lot more than we paid for them. Just look at our midfield, you could also sell Jagielka and Baines for a combined £ 30- 35 million in my opinion. This is another reason why these figures are so misleading. We are underperforming, and we all know it.
Dave Lynch
32   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:52:17

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Using the manager of the year as an excuse for an achievement with regards EFC is a pitifull embarrassment mate.

Must have missed the open top bus when that one was paraded.
Steve Routh
33   Posted 30/12/2010 at 15:51:31

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Clearly with the resources at our disposal we are punching above our weight - so praise where its due. BUT even more lightweight B/pool and Bolton are able to play far more entertaining and successful footy and this must be a reflection of their respective managers enhancing the meagre resources at their disposal with their coaching, attitude to the game and players etc. Holloway and Coyle are far more deserving of praise and managerial awards for managing on comparative shoe strings.
So while Moyes has compiled a better squad than either there remains ample scope for improvement in making far better use of that squad.
Colin Potter
34   Posted 30/12/2010 at 16:48:13

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I fear vfor the future of this club, while we have so many sychophants supporting this club of ours. All you people can quote is 1 abject failure of a cup final. and 3 LMA awards for the most boring, dithering prick of a manager, who when we lose or draw, blames everything and everybody else but himself, Did any of you agree with his 4-6-0 the other night? If you did you are in a trance or something. The man is an idiot, he is clueless, and he is stuck in a defensive time warp.
In 64 years of supporting Everton, I have never heard of so much nonesense talked about a manager, who looks to me as if he couldn't give a shite if we did go down.
For the people who say he's got no money.If he cares for this club like you think he does, why doesn't he stand up to that other prick kenwright? He knows he won't get sacked.
What did kenwright say about moyes? he's the best manager in the world? He must live in a very small world.
Sorry for the rant, but it makes my blood boil,when you see making excuses after a game, when he knows that he contributes a lot to our poor results.
Brian Waring
35   Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:20:53

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Simon, not getting into a tit - for - tat with you. Obviously you believe in the points you are making.

But, all I ( IMO ) think your trying to do is cover for Moyes' failings.
Especially where you say
" If he bought a better quality of player ( For a lot more money ) we'd have a better team capable of beating the likes of Newcastle, West Brom, Blackburn, and draws against Wigan, Bolton, West Ham etc " Now for me, that seems like an excuse for Moyes, or your actually saying that the team Moyes has put togethor, and that he said were capable of challenging the top 4, isen't actually that good.

Neil Pearse
36   Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:13:48

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Dear me! This denial of John Ford's simple point - that spending more money on players is highly correlated with success - is simply embarrassing.

26 out of 30 titles won by the richest clubs - a coincidence?

Man City second in the league after years of obscurity - a coincidence?

Villa sliding down the table after selling and not replacing their best players - a coincidence?

Chelsea struggling now Roman has stopped buying - another coincidence?

We won things when we were relatively rich compared to our competitors, and we don't now we are relatively poor - yet another coincidence?

But if you don't believe that money IN GENERAL OVER TIME leads to success, you probably also still believe that the earth is flat.

By the way, the fact that, ON SOME DAYS poorer clubs beat richer clubs does not as a simple matter of logic invalidate the truth that IN GENERAL OVER TIME richer clubs do better.

On some days it is colder in Liverpool in winter than in Moscow. But Moscow has always been colder in general in winter than Liverpool, and it will be for the forseeable future. Exceptions do not invalidate repeated general rules.

It is also the case that the correlation between money and performance, whilst of course generally holding, is not completely linear and cast iron over short periods. Poorer clubs can do a bit better or worse than their resources would suggest; and so can richer. There are cup shocks. Expensive purchases do not always perform as hoped or expected (ask Rafa Benitez).

Although in the end, as we see, money counts. Whatever is happening now, Blackpool will not be competing in the Champions League anytime soon, unless they are bought by someone very rich.

For Moyes, I would say that it is pretty much undisputable (and only really disputed on Toffeeweb) that he has consistently had Everton out-performing (moderately) relative to his resources for most of his time as manager. That is certainly an achievement. No other Premiership manager can claim the same over the past decade.

This season unfortunately, so far, the out-performance has stopped.

Although even that is most easily explained by the fact that this summer for the first time under Moyes we had no money to bring in anyone at all. We usually get at least one £8M+ player. If that had been a striker this summer, things would probably look rather different.

It would be utterly extraordinary if having more money to buy better players did not generally lead to greater success. As John showed above: it does.
Leon Perrin
37   Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:32:59

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Brian @30

Fascinated at how poles apart we are in watching the same games.
Are you in the obscured view seats?
Brian Waring
38   Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:51:10

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One more thing, it doesn't cost any money to actually have some tactical ability, something that Moyes has shown numerous times, he doesn't possess much off.
David O'Keefe
39   Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:12:38

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I actually agree with Neil Pearce - strange times indeed.

Steve Higham
40   Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:13:37

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AI am not interested in how many times Moyes has won Manager of the Month ? it proves nothing. What I am interested in is my club playing football. This will not happen when we play 4-6-0 ? how embarassing.

At the start of the season, I thought possibly a Europa League spot... how stupid was I? I will settle now to see some football at Goodison sometime this season. Moyes has completely lost the plot and I am totally embarassed to see what has happened to our club.
Finally just compare our performance at West Ham to how Spurs played at Villa. A manager who sets his team up properly and gets the basics right ? Moyes inevitably sets up the team to fail with his negative and now old-fashioned tactics.

Neil Pearse
41   Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:19:44

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David, I think that's the second time in the last few month or so you've agreed with me - becoming a habit!

One more thing - let's not get carried away by all these comparisons with other managers whose clubs string a few good perfomances together, When Holloway et al have done if for half a dozen years plus in the Prem like Moyes, it will be a fairer comparison.

For what it's worth, my guess is that only Coyle amongst those mentioned is the real deal and destined for big things. But we will see.

I think where Moyes really slipped up was not being bolder in the transfer market and letting Saha, Yakubu and Pienaar go in the summer. The first two were pretty obviously past their sell by dates. Pienaar is excellent, but we would have screwed some money out of the always extravagant Redknapp. The squad needed some freshening up, and Moyes flunked it.
Brian Lawlor
42   Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:22:30

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Dave Lynch - you're obviously not even reading my posts. These awards show that he must be doing a decent job. End of. I can't wait to share your little gem that he didn't win those awards with my blue mates. Classic.
Tom Hughes
43   Posted 30/12/2010 at 17:36:13

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Calling people sycophants because they support Moyes is hardly helpful IMO. Unbelieveably misplaced anger?

The article illustrates just one yardstick to measure Moyes' achievements..... It is by no means definitive nor all-encompassing, but it does show a glaring disparity in the financial clout and outlay of all the clubs. Some people still seem to think we are the Mersey-millionaires when in fact we are relative paupers, and an absolute shadow of our former selves. It is decades since we dined at that table, yet some fans still expect a level of achievement even further in advance of our current status.

The real issue is Moyes has engineered a squad that got us within striking distance of the gravy train that has sustained the chosen few for the past 15 years or so. The fact that he achieved this repeatedly on such a limited budget, and from such a low starting point is only commendable. We have been the best of the rest over the past few years.

However, having reached that point, with the objective in sight, where has the financial support gone when we've needed it the most? How many fruitless transfer deadlines have passed when we have been so close to genuinely competing? Unfortunately, the opportunity seems to have passed us by, and Moyes( or whoever else) will have to continue the thankless task of building something with nothing yet again..... and that quite frankly is where we're at!

Contrary to popular belief on this site, the current performances are very far from the worst I've ever seen. Some of the passing and high possession footy of the past 12 months has been the best we've had for years IMO. However, the result-led opinion will only ever register contentment with WINS, even ugly ones with barely 2 passes strung together.

Rest assured, 3 or 4 scrappy 1-0 wins against the run of play will deter all talk of sycophants, and worst manager ever threads.

David O'Keefe
44   Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:31:11

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Neil: I hope the BK business rears its head again.

On topic, it's all about getting a return on an investment and the interesting aspect of the Moyes debate is that accusations of making bad investments on players are lacking. It's tactics all the time, but the lack of resources even influences the tactics. He clearly doesn't rate his current set of strikers, so he doesn't play them. If a player is not performing, he can't replace or rotate due to a lack of options; same when making substitutions.

If they want to deny this obvious truth, that is their prerogative.
Brian Hill
45   Posted 30/12/2010 at 18:54:00

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David @ 44 - Moyes signed all of his available forwards. He coaches them, he motivates them, he is responsible for their performances. You say: "He clearly doesn't rate his current set of strikers" as though their employment at Everton has nothing to do with Moyes.

Further you state: "If a player is not performing he can't replace or rotate due to a lack of options." Again, Moyes signed all of the options. Are you suggesting that Moyes should bear no responsibility for the performances of his own chosen players?

David O'Keefe
46   Posted 30/12/2010 at 19:10:53

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Brian of those forwards Saha is not performing, Beckford is lower league and Yak is finished after that injury. If he had a transfer budget would he have bought Beckford?

Moyes squad consists of 21 over age players and Jack Rodwell. He has 22 players to choose from he is four down on his contemporaries.

"Are you suggesting that Moyes should bear no responsibility for the performances of his own chosen players?"

No Brian, but context is important. If he has a bigger budget he has more choices, there is no budget so its make and mend and 12th place.
Gavin Ramejkis
47   Posted 30/12/2010 at 19:10:43

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Brian (#30), season ticket holder Park End, have been a season ticket holder for decades, started going in the early 70s and been all over country and abroad with the club ? is this really a pissing contest now?

Brian, I'm one of the fans who calls it has he sees it not some kiss-arse scared of change or worried that some bullshit about change is bad ? what the fuck happened when we got shut of negative Walter Smith?

We've gone full circle to negative David Moyes so should we just stick it out "FACT" ? (Christ, you love that word don't you?) because DM has some tinpot awards?

Brian Waring
48   Posted 30/12/2010 at 19:41:19

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Bit off topic, but just been thinking about it. Now Cahill has gone off on his travels, and Moyes has told all the strikers they are shite, what's he going to do against Stoke?

Gavin Ramejkis
49   Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:03:26

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Brian (#48) ? my money is on Fellaini up front, Arteta to start again, Beckford comes on as a sub... but not until at least 60/65 mins gone.
Dave Wilson
50   Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:03:26

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Terrific thread

It may be still possible to be successful without money, but it's highly unlikely. John's article proves that any manager operating on a shoe string is at an obvious disadvantage.

Brian ? breaking news... Moyes left them all out last week at Eastlands too and Cahill played in midfield
Regular observers Know Big Vic will play and if he doesnt do it, Moyes will fuck him off too... I`m starting to respect the Guy.

I`m sick of these These gobshite players getting away with fucken murder.
Brian Waring
51   Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:23:52

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I probably would agree with you there, Gavin: Fellaini up front, and (as West Ham) Arteta & Rodwell supposedly bombing forward to support him.

It's a shame really, I would love to see Bily play in his natural position.
Graham Fylde
52   Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:23:02

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There was an excellent piece on here a few years back which showed a real correlation between league position and wages (rather than money spent on bringing players in).

I think the guy lifted it from the Fink Tank at the Times and, as sad as it seems, there was very little bucking of the trend between higher wages and position/success ? notably we did it with our top 4 finish.

I've tried to get to it but the Times has gone subscription and I refuse to pay Mr Murdoch!
Brian Waring
53   Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:52:30

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It's funny how we are discussing how skint we are, and how Moyes doesn't have the funds available to him. But, the man himself is right up there with the other highest paid managers in the Prem...
John Crawley
54   Posted 30/12/2010 at 20:41:14

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I totally agree with the comments Neil Pearse has made and, to emphasise John's main argument, just have a look at the last 6 transfer windows. These figures are taken from ToffeeWeb's transfer record:

Jan 08 - Income: £4.75 million, Expenditure: £1 million.
June-Aug 08 - Income: £10.5 million, Expenditure: £12.9 million.
Jan 09 - No income or expenditure.
June-Aug 09 - Income: £24 million, Expenditure: £20.1 million
Jan 10 - Income: £1 million, Expenditure; Nil
Jun-Aug 10 - Income: Nil, Expenditure: £1.4 million.
Total Income over this period is £40.25 million. Total Expenditure is £35.40 million. Net Spend is - £4.85 million.

This is the financial reality that David Moyes has had to work with since finishing 6th, 5th & 5th in the league and this is the time when the Board should have been finding money to invest in the team; instead, the net spend is a negative one of almost £5 million!! Whatever his failings as a manager, there can be no doubt where the main finger of blame should be placed ? the board!!

Col Noon
55   Posted 30/12/2010 at 22:25:47

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Tom Hughes ? 43:

"Rest assured, 3 or 4 scrappy 1-0 wins against the run of play will deter all talk of sycophants, and worst manager ever threads." ? Pardon me but can you please point me in the general direction of these "3 or 4" wins? I seem to have gotten a tad confused here. Are we talking about the same Everton that play sideways, predictable football and barely look a threat?

And correct me if I am wrong but is it not also the same Everton who have leaked sloppy goals all season and look incapable of weathering a sustained period of pressure from an opposing team?

Not to mention the individual errors that have been the theme since Howard's shocking howler against Blackburn.

Apart from that: yeah, great... cannot wait to see us get these "3 or 4" wins. No danger.

Mick McKenna
56   Posted 30/12/2010 at 22:44:04

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There is no getting away from the fact that the level of a club's financial resources is hugely significant. Everton are one of just seven clubs which have preserved an ever-present status in the Premier League since its inception 18 years ago. Of these seven (Everton, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, Aston Villa and Liverpool) Everton are the only club not to have had the benefit of major investment and/or Champions League revenue during those eighteen years.

To date, the club has proved to be the single exception to the rule that, if you are not a member of the wealthy elite, then you can expect to drop out of the top flight, take a turn in the lower divisions, and join all the other outcasts in trying to fight your way back up again.

David Moyes's critics make many valid points on these threads, but I think that you have to give the guy credit for his perseverance and resourcefulness in the face of the restrictions which have confronted him, year-in, year-out, since his arrival.

Tom Hughes
57   Posted 30/12/2010 at 23:33:17

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"Are we talking about the same Everton that play sideways, predictable footaball and barely look a threat?"

Sorry, I was under the impression that for most games this season and/or 2010 we have produced lots of scoring chances. On most occasions, plenty more than the opposition, and certainly far more than we used to.

"And correct me if I am wrong but is it not also the same Everton who have leaked sloppy goals all season and look incapabable of weathering a sustained period of pressure from an opposing team?"

Incapable? Man City, with 10 men? You're correct in a way though, because apart from that, not sure how many teams have put us under sustained pressure in this season of supposed "worst evers"....

Does that mean I'm contented with our current performances? Of course not... but it's far from the depths some are trying to portray. Our biggest problem is that we are toothless upfront, and teams have gotten wise to this... any increase in quality upfront could see a great improvement in the "all-important" results, and performances generally.
Amit Vithlani
58   Posted 31/12/2010 at 12:08:06

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Michael (Post 1) ? I will have a go at responding to the Arsenal "outlier":

How about the fact that when Arsene Wenger took over in 1996, he took over a side that had finished 5th and had the best back four in the country and Dennis Bergkamp and Ian Wright upfront.

He won the title adding only Viera and Pettit. He then sells these two players, together with Overmars, for a huge profit on the back of Arsenal's title winning sequence. Since then, with little money to spend, Arsenal have not won a trophy and some supporters are calling for Wenger's head. Sound familiar?

Also, Arsenal were under performing when he took over and with a few additions they became Champions.

Thereafter, as one of the league's top clubs, he has attracted some of the best young players in Europe to the club at lower transfer costs and these players have gone on to make the first team and become world class players. Do you honestly believe Cesc Fabregas would have joined Everton as a 16-year-old unless we were challenging for the tite?

Now let's look at Moyes. Inherits probably one of the worst squads in the club's history. How many of those players would have made it into Arsenal's XI? Only Rooney.

Finally, Arsenal have more revenues (and more debt) than Everton. They are able to sustain a higher wage bill than Everton.

They sell players when they want to ? Henry, Viera, Lujungberg, Pires, Campbell all left when they were pretty much on the way down. He fought off Barcelona's interest in Fabregas.

Compare this to Moyes. United want Rooney and... they get Rooney. City want Lescott and... they get Lescott. Pienaar wants higher wages and... he is about to run down his contract.
Michael Kenrick
59   Posted 31/12/2010 at 14:22:12

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Amit: exactly... Wenger has proved himself to be a brilliant manger with negative net investment over the last seven years.

Moyes? (with substantially more money)... Not so much.
Amit Vithlani
60   Posted 31/12/2010 at 16:26:08

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Sorry Michael, I disagree with you.

- Wenger started with a much better team Had a bigger wage bill to play with.

Moyes has spent £3M more than Wenger each season, on a lower wage bill, turning relegation fodder into European contenders.

Wenger has taken an underperforming team with a big wage bill to where it should be ? challenging for the title.

So how has Moyes done worse?

The answer, in my opinion, is that he hasn't.
Graham Fylde
61   Posted 31/12/2010 at 20:53:21

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Ha ha, Michael you're nothing if not consistent in parading your prejudice. How has Moyes had 'substantially more money'? By my maths, he's had almost 40% less money to spend. If you are referring to nett investment then he (Wenger) has indeed received a much bigger inflow of cash, almost twice as much as Moyes (the players he is selling are of a better quality ? surprise!).
Leon Perrin
62   Posted 31/12/2010 at 22:05:19

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Is 8th the new 1st?

Looking at the table I'd add Villa and Liverpool to the present top 5 as above us resource wise. I should have added Stoke, Newcastle and Sunderland but I just couldn't bring myself to ask is 11th the new 1st.

The point is if we accept our shitness surely it might lighten the load. If we reach 8th would anyone else chip in a quid to buy a trophy suitably inscribed?

Also where can you hire open-topped double-deckers?

Michael Kenrick
63   Posted 31/12/2010 at 22:17:00

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I think the discussion is about Net investment in players. You are talking gross numbers.

"Whatever your view, it is worth considering Moyes's spending in comparison to others, and our relative premier performances over the past six or seven years. The table below shows the total spend for each Premier League club and, perhaps more importantly, their net spend since 2003."

Everton (Net) £25,950,500

Arsenal (Net) £-2,320,000

What that means, Graham, is that David Moyes has gone through substantially more money on balance, £28M more than Wenger. Yet Wenger has done a far better job, which should not be the case if the point of the OP is to have any meaning.

Jay Harris
64   Posted 31/12/2010 at 22:21:52

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Neil #36 You might also be surprised that I agree with the points you make.

I believe Moyes has been outstanding compared to the budget he has had to spend. However, I think the wheel fell off when he was negotiating his contract and Lescott decided to jump ship. Since then, all of the dignity and principle seems to be unravelling at a pace.

He is now taking his frustration out on the players with many public criticisms ? something he would never have done before ? and his bizarre team selections are almost as if he is making a point to the board.

The club is always bigger than the manager or any player and, while I think we will struggle without him and I cant think of any better with the meagre resources, I do feel he is ready to go.
Jay Harris
65   Posted 31/12/2010 at 22:55:13

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BTW John
thanks for the analysis it make interesting reading .

Happy New Year everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Graham Fylde
66   Posted 01/01/2011 at 00:51:44

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Michael, John's original post has a fairly open minded 'perhaps more importantly', their net spend since 2003'. You seem to have taken net spend and come up with 'David Moyes has gone through substantially more money on balance, £28M more than Wenger'. and 'with substantially more money' (than Wenger) both of which are, at best, misleading.

He has, I agree, spent a much larger amount than he got in ? because he got in a piddling amount for the players he sold compared to Arsenal's sales (£80M v £149M). He actually spent £41M less (nearly £6M per year for each of the 7 years). He was buying players for the same football league as Arsenal over those 7 years but was operating in a completely different financial league and comparisons of net spend are meaningless in gauging whether he has done a better/worse job than our French friend.

Michael Kenrick
67   Posted 02/01/2011 at 18:56:59

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Graham, the OP is ranked by Net Spend. The point being made was related to net spend of the Sky Four. Yet caveats are needed to "explain" away the positions of two of the Sky Four who actually buck the trend being inferred.

None of this takes away from the facts I know to be patently true, which is that David Moyes is currently doing an absolutely dreadful job of mananging the tremendous resources he has in his squad ? in his words, the best squad he has had in his time at Everton.

The real issue is Moyes's performance as Manager of Everton FC. I find this money excuse trotted out by his sycophants both sickening and pathetic when used to explain away the dreadful tactics, moribund gameplans and hopeless substitution strategy Moyes has demonstrated for a very long time in his hugely well-compensated post as Everton manager.

But perhaps you're happy with that, because he's "cash-strapped"?
Graham Fylde
68   Posted 03/01/2011 at 19:31:06

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Wow, '....sycophants both sickening and pathetic' - love it! For the record, I am no Moyes supporter, I was just pointing out the bollocks of using net spend the way you have (if you want to see the arbitrariness of this argument, go to Sunday Times yesterday where Everton's net spend over 5 years is, apparently, negative!).

I think you are spot on with 'dreadful tactics, moribund gameplans and hopeless substitution strategy' by the way but they have got shag all to do with his net spend.

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