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Going on strike

By Sam Hoare :  03/01/2011 :  Comments (82) :
So, there's been a lot of depressing, highly critical and occassionally over-reactive material written on here of late. Which i can understand, even if i don't agree with it.

Things aren't looking fantastic and I can understand why people are upset. But I'm not sure how it is that Moyes seems to be getting so much more of the brunt than the players. Yes, it's his team and his players but if, as is widely acknowledged, he is playing the same team and system that did so well in the second half of last season, then why is it that we are doing so poorly?

Moyes is nothing else if not constant in his approach so why is he suddenly to blame? It's not as if teams have suddenly 'worked us out' ? we've been doing it for 5 years! Don't get me wrong (as I know lots of you will) ? I'm not absolving him of responsibility at all (he is slow to react to in-game situations and his stubbornness is a burden when things aren't going well) but surely the players are where it is really breaking down?

A lot of people have been saying that we are playing the worst football ever and are the most negative team they have ever seen. Is it just me who thinks that is utter, complete rubbish?! Yes, the results stink but some of the football we have played has been top notch (if ultimately ineffective). We have kept the ball better than at any other time in the last decade or so.

People say we should shoot more; they may be right... but the fact is that as we entered the New year we were one of the higher shooters in the Premier League. Six teams have more shots on goal than us in the first half of the season and six teams have had more shots on target than us according to Opta. When you consider that we are traditionally a team based on defensive solidity, that doesn't seem too negative to me (especially when we don't have too many long-range efforts). Rather it speaks of players not taking their chances.

I'm not happy with the way things have been going at all. Nor do I absolve Moyes of responsibility. I also don't believe that one should rely or fall back on statistics. I do feel though that we may not have got quite what we deserve from some of our play in the first half of the season. A lot of that may be down to having no in-form strikers and it will be interesting to see what is done to rectify it. I would be happy to see Macheda brought in and possibly start up front with Beckford. Coping without Tim is going to be interesting... I hope, however, he shuffles things, it works out well and we can start looking upwards rather than over our shoulders!

I would also be happy to see fans try to give their backing to a manager who has worked hard and to the best of his ability for us over the last few years. He may not always get it right and he may be a stubborn one-trick pony and yes, perhaps a change could be beneficial, but, so long as he is here, we should try and get behind him and the team. I, for one, still think they will turn it around.

Reader Comments

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Gavin Ramejkis
1   Posted 03/01/2011 at 14:50:12

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Arteta has never played so deep before that's new this season. Playing games with no striker with three on the bench that's new this season. Playing the same old tired anti-football that other managers have worked out - that's same as Moyes has ever done, football evolves, pity Everton and David Moyes hasn't or won't.
Sam Hoare
2   Posted 03/01/2011 at 14:53:27

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Not gonna reply to every moan as it would take for ever, but Gavin, no.

Arteta played just as deep as last season and we have started most games this season with Cahill and Saha...just as last. Furthermore we have started one game this season with no strikers as opposed to a very long and reasonably successful period playing with Cahill and Fella up top a few seasons back. So simply put. No.
Andy Peers
3   Posted 03/01/2011 at 14:56:34

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Sam, the players are not inspired by Moyes anymore and he is doing this through inept tactics and playing players that should not be on the pitch. Look at how many times Heitinga has played in midfield whilst more natural midfielders were on the bench. Playing Hibbert at Centre Half instead of Duffy, playing a Striker who hasn,t scored in a year...the list goes on. I in fact have not agreed with a starting 11 this season , have you ? Arteta will not regain his form this season so just get rid of him. Macheda and Beckford up front sounds good but do you think Moyes would ever start them together ...no. Unless he waits for the 80th minute and bring them on. I do blame Moyes for all the above and our league position. He is the one telling the players what to do as we saw with the 5 minutes of instructions he gives every sub before they go on.
Gavin Ramejkis
4   Posted 03/01/2011 at 15:07:34

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Sam, Saha hasn't scored since February you may as well not have a striker on the pitch as play him virtually every game. Arteta played in a far more advanced role than we have seen this season so not quite sure where you got that from as he's never been a defensive midfielder in his life. Chaill and Fellaini played up front a few seasons through necessity rather than choice, what's the excuse now? So sorry Sam but no exactly.
Michael Coffey
5   Posted 03/01/2011 at 15:11:16

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I agree that statistics are never the whole story, but we have never in our history recorded fewer league wins at this point in the season. Even the relegation teams of 1929 and 1950 managed more than the current crew.

I think that tells you something about the current tactics.
Andrew Laird
6   Posted 03/01/2011 at 15:00:31

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"Moyes is nothing else if not constant in his approach so why is he suddenly to blame?"
This is exactly why he is to blame. When this approach is failing so miserably for half of the season (not just this season) and he fails to try anything different at all in his set up or gameplan then the buck stops with him. The players he has accumulated over the seasons have outgrown his workmanlike tactics of energy and "huff and puff" closing down against superior opposition.
"he is playing the same team and system that did so well in the second half of last season, then why is it that we are doing so poorly?"
When Donovan joined the club we suddenly had a threat down both flanks, something we have never had before in his tenure. Something which ,for a welcome change, made the opposition have to worry about US and every blade of grass on that pitch instead of just our left hand side. Please dont forget the shocking revert to type of performances when Donovan left towards the end of the season. If some observers can see the problems with the set up then why can't he?
Michael Coville
7   Posted 03/01/2011 at 14:57:23

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I believe one of the mistakes Moyes has made is being overly loyal to players. We should have bitten West Ham's hand off and taken the 6 million pounds for Yakubu and we should not have spent what little money we have on higher/longer contracts for the likes of Arteta who has not been any were near the player he was before his injury. Plenty of other sides have improved significantly over the last two years and we have remained stagnant. Only one direction to go and it will not be to our liking. Either Bill finds some money or some of the young players come good or we are going to end up at the wrong end of the table on a consistent basis.
It seems the only thing we will do is get in some loan players this January. Maybe the only thing that will do is keep us from being relegated. Unless we have an option to buy all it does is put off the inevitable and helps "better" teams to develop their youngsters. Maybe a better option would be to give some of our fringe players a game.
Nelaj Behajiha
8   Posted 03/01/2011 at 15:20:26

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Sam wrong we haven't be doing it for years. The difference is when he first played it the formation was quite unusual. As more and more teams play 4 5 1 nowadays in games, even Spurs did against Everton. In the 2007/2008 season Moyes often played 2 up front. In the 2008/2009 season due to injuries he resorted to playing 4 5 1 most matches. It can work if you have very creative players in midfield Sam but not when you have ultra defensive types who have no pace and are only capable of playing the ball sideways. As Arteta as previous winger has been moved to central midfield we've lost our delivery. I have no problem with 4 5 1 if used with the right team and in thwe right games. Playing 4 5 1 against Chelsea away is 1 thing, playing 4 5 1 against Wigan and Wolves at home is another thing. As I pointed out that it's not the strikers fault as they get no service. Coleman is excellent and running at defenders but the final product doesn't always match the run. Pienaar can't cross. None of our central midfielders can pass to any standard.
Mike Gwyer
9   Posted 03/01/2011 at 15:04:37

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Sam.

Tend to agree but something, or probably things, are definately amiss from the end of last season.

1. Arteta - playing completly shite. His dead ball delivery is bad, cronically bad - I mean he hits the first man with such reliability I'm beginning to wonder if he does it on purpose.

2. Howard - far too inconsistent. Played blinders against City - shite against Stoke, Blackburn, Wolves and blah blah blah. Does not command his line and the CB's seem not to trust him.

3. Pienaar - he is off to pastures new that is for sure. The game against Stoke I thought he was a joke - poor passing, shooting and not helping Baines defend. OK, he had a good game at City but at WHU and Stoke he was poor and as for his passing & shooting - fuck I could piss further.

That is just 3 issues off the top of my head, there are more, such as our super shite forwards.

Obviously the only person who can sort these issues is Moyes and unfortunately he is banging on about lack of cash, the club is skint e.t.c. But IMO he needs cash or we are in serious trouble, so if he has to sell - then sell. At this moment I dont really care who (except Cahill and Baines) but he has to raise cash.





Alan Clarke
10   Posted 03/01/2011 at 15:49:18

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Is this article deliberately provocative?

You sum it up Sam when you say it's the same system Moyes has been using in the past. Football has moved on, mate and Moyes hasn't. Playing the same old system just isn't working anymore. A good manager would recognise this and change. Moyes just digs his heels in. You absolutely cannot argue with the league table and the fact we've only 4 wins. It shows Moyes has got it very wrong. Every struggling manager tends to point the finger at the players but how come when a new manager comes in, the same players can then yield different results? Moyes himself did this when he took over from Smith. Every ship needs a rudder and someone to steer it. Everton are rudderless and no one is at the wheel anyway.
Dave Wilson
11   Posted 03/01/2011 at 14:59:33

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Spot on, Sam.

Saying we played at West ham without a striker, is just unadulterated shite, it suits the negative jibes, but I distinctly saw Cahill up front, just as I saw Tony Hibbert play central defender, although I didn't hear anyone say how brave Moyes was for playing without a centre-half. It's a complete mystery to me why people bang on about playing Cahill out of position then in the next breath say Moyes played a 4-6-0 formation. WHAT???

Many fans accuse Moyes of having favorites, but some players can do no wrong; our forwards have been shite this season and deserved to be dropped. I`m sick of Everton dominating possession, midfielders looking desperately for some sign of intelligent movement.

And what about our centre-half? Now he IS anti-football, hoofs everything brainlessly ? when he is scoring for the opposition ? yet try suggesting we sell him and you`ll be wearing a hard hat for a year ?trust me on that one.

Moyes put his trust in, Neville, Jagielka, Arteta, Yakubu and Saha, he`s stuck by them through injury he`s shown his loyalty with top dollar contracts for them... They`ve all betrayed him, opted for easy street.

I`d put all five of them in the window right now, nothing they can do this season can justify their contributions so far.

As for this negative tag? Only three teams have attacked us more that we have attacked them this season ? and we had a man sent off in one of those game .

Watch the match tomorrow ? and I mean actually watch the match ? I bet Everton attack far more than the media darlings from North London, just as we did at WHL.

The Evertonian has always had his head screwed on, it's a complete mystery to me why these money grabbing fuckers are getting such a easy ride.
Andy Peers
12   Posted 03/01/2011 at 16:01:42

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Well said Alan!!
Steve Higham
13   Posted 03/01/2011 at 15:55:59

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Sam a good argument but Moyes just wont change his ways . Will tell you now what he will do against Spurs he will play Felli up front put Neville into midfield and put Hibbert at full back.
PL football has moved on it is now more expansive and Moyes knows only one way to play.
If he would just show some balls and have a go at teams instead of keeping it tight and nicking a goal we might see some entertaining football at GP. Come on Davey give expansive football a go against Spurs we have nothing to loose its better than boring us to death with what I have seen home and away this season.COYB.
Phil Martin
14   Posted 03/01/2011 at 15:48:25

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Sam I totally agree. The bigger picture which a lot of fans seem to be missing is that we have no options through a lack of funding. We need a top striker, but the only way to fund that is to sell Pienaar (our best player last season) and most likely Heintinga (our most high profile centre half).
Then in 12 months time we'll probably be scrabbling around for another half and wide midfielder when others are injured/suspended. You understand?
We were close to the gravy train (CL) but until we can actually buy a player we need- without selling first. Then this is it for us. So get used to i!.
Moyes doesnt help himself -agreed. But complaining about our lack of attacking options is akin to complaining about the music onboard the sinking titanic.
The real fucking issue lies further up the hierachy
Andrew Laird
15   Posted 03/01/2011 at 16:18:16

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Phil, you could also argue that Moyes knows he will have no transfer kitty each season yet sets his team up to play with a top notch striker we will never be able to attract or afford.
Tony Wilson
16   Posted 03/01/2011 at 16:13:28

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To second Andrew, #6: Us "moaners" have known about Moyes' weaknesses for years. It simply appears that time has taken it's toll on us and we are now seeking platforms to induce a change. Sam, wake up. We have backed the manager for over 9 years. There is nothing honourable in supporting a philosophy that you know to be deeply flawed. If you support the club then think about it's best interests and not your own sense of moral superiority. Cheers
Tom Collie
17   Posted 03/01/2011 at 16:39:23

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A lengthy post basically saying leave Moyes alone he's my hero.

Sock puppetry at work again?
Charles King
18   Posted 03/01/2011 at 16:44:14

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Sam, I apologise in advance for what I've done here ? it's not a personal attack, your piece is absolutely representative of the view often offered on this site calling for support of Moyes... I just can't see why.

I see time and time again this format: "...Yeah, he is guilty of.... (a full list of faults follow)... but look at these statistics... and don't forget the LMA awards...... and did you hear what Shearer / Hansen / Soccer Saturday / lazy journo [delete as necessary] said."

I just don't get it.

I know context is vital but I hope I've extracted stuff that tells its own story in isolation. I've cut and pasted these lines directly from your piece:

Yes, it's his team and his players

Moyes is nothing else if not constant in his approach

(he is slow to react to in-game situations and his stubbornness is a burden when things aren't going well)

Yes, the results stink but some of the football we have played has been top notch (if ultimately ineffective).

Six teams have more shots on goal than us in the first half of the season and six teams have had more shots on target than us according to Opta.

I would also be happy to see fans try to give their backing to a manager who has worked hard and to the best of his ability for us over the last few years. He may not always get it right and he may be a stubborn one-trick pony and yes, perhaps a change could be beneficial
Absolutely no offence mate I just can't understand it.
Phil Martin
19   Posted 03/01/2011 at 16:39:50

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Andrew, #144

So what does he do? Throw in the towel and say "this is futile without financial backing". We may as well just close down the club and let Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and City draw lots for the trophies.

Tony, #15

"There is nothing honourable in supporting a philosophy that you know to be deeply flawed. If you support the club then think about it's best interests and not your own sense of moral superiority"
how i wish Kenwright would read this.
Andrew Laird
20   Posted 03/01/2011 at 16:49:29

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phil#18,
what does he do? funnily enough I think he threw the towel in a while ago (never won at the old sky 4 in 40 attempts) after accepting a monumental pay rise while still bemoaning a lack of club funds. Hypocrisy?
Terry Hayes
21   Posted 03/01/2011 at 16:44:28

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What's that saying?.."if it ain't broke don't fix it".
We are currently half way through the season, three points above the drop... it's broke it needs fixing! We need an engineer and an assembler that knows where all the parts go, but we haven't got one, we've got a cowboy builder.

It isn't a top striker that we need, we already have them, we just need someone with a little knowhow and style and some bollocks to turn this one-geared jalopy into a roadworthy vehicle again.

Where's Marshy by the way? Has he finally slit his wrists?

Nick Armitage
22   Posted 03/01/2011 at 17:32:30

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Andrew Laird - you have hit the nail on the head there. Moyes has spent too much money in midfield and defence, which is all good if he wants 0-0 every week.

But he knew his transfer kitty and has not left himself any room for manoeuvre up front. As a result we can't score and so play the dour negative shite we are all sick of.

The personnel Moyes has to call on are his choices entirely and to expect us to storm up the league with powder puff attack is naive at best.

Moyes has cocked up big time and he needs to accept the blame here.
Dave Richman
23   Posted 03/01/2011 at 17:37:21

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On the shots issue, doesn't Pienaar scuffing the ball gently into the keepers arms count the same as a piledriver that is tipped behind for a corner? The two are vastly different but will be exactly the same according to Opta. Or am I wrong?

Does Arteta blasting the ball directly into the middle of the wall also count?

Whats that phrase about lies and statistics?
Dale Hathaway
24   Posted 03/01/2011 at 17:40:22

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I am getting seriously annoyed with some comments that appear.. Firstly we have two fully proven top quality strikers in the squad, Yak and Saha. I hear that Moyes would like to sign another striker. What for to destroy the career of yet another player? Moyes is about as much use as a fart in a cullinder. When he signed the Yak and Saha they were not successful in team playing hoofball. They were successful in teams that supplied the strikers and backed them up with an influx of midfielders in the box. If I recall correctly Moyes himself was bemoaning the lack of effort Yak was putting in when we didnt have the ball (during our Euro campaign) Personally I couldnt give a fuck if he never tackled for the ball but he scored the goals. I watched the West Ham game on Sky and was totally pissing myself when we were singing Feed the Yak and he will score. He hasn't been supplied a decent cross in years. Moyes has ruined his game. Moyes has ruined the game of James Beattie, Andy Johnson, Yak & Saha to name but a few. They are/ were all decent when signed but the longball game doesnt suit any of those players. When will Moyes realise this?

Furthermore I am getting seriously pissed off with the "I thought we did ok", "I thought we deserved more from the game", "We're not taking our chances". I would like to hear him say "you know what I screwed up, the players are not to blame because they play my system. We train at it all week but my tactical inadequacies were highlighted today" Moyes is to blame, not the players. SIMPLES!
Steve Guy
25   Posted 03/01/2011 at 18:05:30

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Einsten's definition of insanity was repeating the same thiing over and over and expecting a different result. That's were Moyes now seems to be. e.g. play Saha, he doesn't get a sniff.......play Saha, he doesn't get a sniff.......play Saha, he doesn't get a sniff.......
Andy Crooks
26   Posted 03/01/2011 at 18:04:42

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Phil, I can see how the lack of funding makes champions league football unlikely, in fact I never expected it. However, lack of funding does not excuse our current position. That is squarely down to to a coach who has run out of ideas and seems totally bereft of imagination and motivation. I defy anyone to come on this site and state that no one could get more from this squad than David Moyes. His era is over and he should go with dignity.
Richard Dodd
27   Posted 03/01/2011 at 18:23:26

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I suspect we shall soon see a change of roles for several players as the manager moves to cover the loss of Cahill by playing Fellaini as support striker to the loan signing he is bringing in. This will enable him to accomodate Rodwell in midfield defence as he has struggled to nail down a place in a more forward role...
Andrew Laird
28   Posted 03/01/2011 at 18:43:56

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Please spare us your crystal ball ramblings Richard or at least wipe it first.
Gavin Ramejkis
29   Posted 03/01/2011 at 18:50:39

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Doddy you need to stop walking on your hands. Fellaini is a defensive midfielder, pushing him up front is a retrograde step, something Moyes was forced to do through injury previously and nothing new, it still smacks of he won't change his miserable anti football formation or style. Rodwell in essence is a defensive midfielder and the only reason you may want to push him forward is in the chance his youth would give him pace and an attacking edge. Given Moyes penchant for defence at all costs whatsoever that sounds like Howard in goal, five midfielders on the pitch, at least three of which defensive or being asked to play defensive and a loan striker. It hasn't worked all season so why would that suddenly change against an attacking side like Spurs or a team with nothing to lose in a cup game?
Oliver Molloy
30   Posted 03/01/2011 at 18:32:53

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Moyes has done some great things for the club,but he has also made some awful mistakes in transfer dealings.
Everyone knew we needed a decent striker this season,a player that would give us a minimum 15-20 goal.
Now i'm not going to suggest who we should have bought,but i think we all knew that Beckford was not going to deliver in his first season,Yakuba wanted away ( he should have got his wish ) and haha as i call him is too injury prone and why Moyes never accepted the £8 million for him from the turks is beyond belief to me..
Arteta on £75 grand is also unbelievable to me,I have said all along if we were getting decent money for him and figures branded about were anything from £10-£15 million we should have sold,what we get for him now i wonder!
I have been a Moyes supporter for a long time,but this season i simply could not believe we did not buy a proven striker,i know it's easier said than done,but it was a priority for the start of this season.
It's difficult to compete when you have no money,but the mangers job in these situations is to wheel and deal,and generate the funds required.
The problem now we have is everyone knows we are skint,we need players and any player Moyes wants to off load will be on the buying clubs terms i thinks.
This is the stuff i am talking about that Moyes lets himself down on big time.
He said before the start of the season a really good offer was on the table for Pienaar,and it was up to the player!!..what load of bullocks.Everton are not in a position to let a player run down his contract for his own benefit-Pienarr should had EVERTONS ULTIMATUM sign the contract or we sell you now..this is basic stuff in business.
This is Moyes @ his worst this stubborn attitude "my way or no way"-well it's come back to haunt him this season,will he learn from it?
Even if we go on a decent run to the end of the season,it is only papering over the strange world of Moyes mind
David Hallwood
31   Posted 03/01/2011 at 19:51:44

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Dale Hathaway#22 Simples! Simples!! for all Moyes inadequacies, please don?t say that Saha & yak are blameless. Saha is a fucking disgrace probably the worse attitude of any Everton player since Nyarko-I now realise why someone ran onto the field and told him that he wasn?t fit to wear the blue shirt and I wish someone would do that to Saha. Yakubu is a professional footballer being paid tens of thousand pounds a week, and yet can?t be arse getting himself in condition. Where is THEIR professional pride, and why do senior professionals need to be wet nursed by Moyes.

Like all supporters, I spend a lot of money on Everton that really could be spent elsewhere, and when I watch Saha and compare him to someone like Danny Wellbeck, who hasn?t got half of Saha?s talent but is prepared to run himself into the ground for the cause, I feel like running on and strangling the bastard. Slag Moyes by all means but FFS don?t treat over-paid professionals like an indulgent mother treats her horrible bastard of a child.
Kunal Desai
32   Posted 03/01/2011 at 20:01:58

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Team spirit and motivation has been two of Moyes strongest attributes as manager where he has been successful in delivering three consecutive top six place finishes as well as a top four finish.
In my opinion he no longer has these and the reason he does not have these is because players are tired of playing in position which are not there natural positions. Isolated strikers up front chasing lost causes, central defender playing in midfield. You could argue if we had a serious injury crisis which we have had in the past then as a unit players pull together and will play anywhere but when there are players available to fill all the positions required it becomes frustrating to those players being asked to play out of position. My guess is that the players are demoralised, there are no new colleagues added to the squad and the failure to build on prior seasons make players either think they want to move on in the case of Pienaar for CL football or the likes of Saha and Arteta who have performed well in previous seasons but now feel that they are basically owed for their rewards and therefore taken the club to the cleaners with increased salaries. Now that they have these do they care? No ofcourse not. Moyes is left without his two biggest attributes and unfortunately he is now fighting a loosing battle and for those who think this is rubbish wait and see come the end of May
Andy Crooks
33   Posted 03/01/2011 at 20:50:20

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David I agree 100% re. Saha. As for the Yak, well I think he was superb against Liverpool and was then left out. Why?
Dick Fearon
34   Posted 03/01/2011 at 22:07:08

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There has been much debate about facts and how to decipher them.
Here are a few facts that make for sad reading. They are not registered by statisticians yet they are indisputable.
The Yak is as fit as he ever will be. Osman and Bily are as fast as they will ever be. Neville and Hibbo's passing are as good as it gets. Jags will always be a closet hoofer and Howard will never be confident dealing with high crosses. Arteta is the worst in the premier league at free kicks and corners yet he will always be allowed to take them.
Pienaar will always be useless at heading and will never have a powerful shot.
Beckford cannot and never will be able to trap a bag of cement.
Once the above is accepted our frustrations will be eased and we can get on with enjoying life without too many dashed hopes.
Sam Hoare
35   Posted 03/01/2011 at 22:40:50

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Aaarghhh. An optimist/apologist. Get him! Attack him! Drown him in misery!! Ha.

Look I know its bad but answer me this...why did (most of) all think that this was going to be a really good season, that we could actually challenge at the top (something Sir Alex agreed with)? Did you think that Moyes was suddenly going to change from his clearly entrenched style of management, from his stubborn approach and system?

No. Surely not.

And yet alot of people thought that things were going to be great this season. So what went wrong??

The players.

Our best (highest paid) player can barely complete a pass.

Our strikers look immobile and ineffective.

Individual mistakes (and own goals) have plagued our back 4 and Howard has made some clangers too.

Despite what some think Moyes is not my hero and he has many faults as have been over documented in previous posts but he is not alone....so can we stop the pantomime villifying and spread blame equally and fairly.
Tony Doran
36   Posted 03/01/2011 at 22:53:51

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Neville shite, play Beckford and what's the crack with Gyane if he's not good enough to get a start now he may as well fook off. I've got loads more but can't be arsed right now.
Andy Peers
37   Posted 03/01/2011 at 23:26:11

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Just read that Macheda has gone on loan to Sampdoria today. How come we have not signed a loan deal yet as we are supposed to be on that full time. I thought because with our relationship with United players in the past that we had a good chance of signing Macheda on loan. Dithering Moyes again and Kenwright just not on the ball. Tell me what these guys get paid good money for?

I know they are out looking 24/7 for loan signings because they obviously gave up on 24/7 investment seeking and the way we are playing they are only spending about a half hour at training every day..lol.
Dale Hathaway
38   Posted 03/01/2011 at 23:41:23

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If Moyes wants to crack the secret of scoring goals here is the formula... Play with two strikers (your best two)
Tell your wingers to cross the ball at all cost into the oppositions box.
Stop playing hoofball, it didn't do Wimbledon any long term favours.
Drop players who you think they need time to get it right.
Do not have favourites.
I think that Tim Cahill leaving will be a blessing in disguise. We have to adapt to a slightly different version of direct football now!
Roman Sidey
39   Posted 03/01/2011 at 23:42:05

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Sam, I didn't even bother reading the second half as it's all been (wrongly) said before. The line that made me stop reading: "the fact is that as we entered the New year we were one of the higher shooters in the Premier League."

How many of our "shots" have forced goalies into decent saves? Not many. Most of our shots have been half arsed and probably a last resort after "holding" the ball for so long.

Don't let stats deceive you into thinking we are playing good football. Yes, Moyes system is the same it's been for 5 years. The problem with that is, the Premier League is not. The last two years has seen the way the game is played shift a lot, and Moyes hasn't cottoned on yet. He will always be a manager that can save a team from relegation, but his niche market will not be top of the league until he rectifies this.
Roman Sidey
40   Posted 04/01/2011 at 00:07:45

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And in reply to your later post, this season was going to be great because we finally had our full squad fit, which meant we had depth in all positions for the first time since Moyes took over (assuming you class Heitinga, Neville and Coleman all as right backs). You say Howard fucked up a few times. Yes, in the first game against Blackburn he was the reason we dropped a goal. He should have been dropped. No, Moyes doesn't drop his players.
Here are some facts that also aren't listed anywhere that Dick left out:
Heitinga is and enjoys being a defender - not a midfielder.
Hibbo has a chance of being in the shop window this weekend - against Scunthorpe.
Anichebe doesn't belong at the club anymore.
Wait and see Moyes try to defy this logic over the next month.
Derek Thomas
41   Posted 04/01/2011 at 00:08:09

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As Christine Foster said, not a defence of Moyes, more a plea for mitigation before sentencing.

It's not ALL his fault You Honour he does try, but.....fill in all the usual shite.
Simon Temme
42   Posted 04/01/2011 at 00:29:09

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Sam,

Thanks for a good post with some very valid points.

Hate to be simplistic - DM Out, BK Out.

Yes let's behind the team tomorrow but it's with a very heavy heart if Moyes continues to continue with the 4-6-0 baffling tactics.

To quote the darts "Trebles for show, doubles for doe"
Eugene Ruane
43   Posted 04/01/2011 at 01:53:12

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A deer?

A female deer?
Sam Hoare
44   Posted 04/01/2011 at 09:07:59

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Roman, all these flaws have been witnessed and much ananlysed for seasons before this. He plays people out of position, he's too negative blah blah blah boring blah...so i repeat again...what were you expecting to be so different this season? A sudden revelation and change of system/tactics?

No, because they were working in the second half of last season.

Its pretty scientific...if one thing remains constant (moyes) then what has changed? Possibly the standard of football elsewhere (but i don't really buy that) or possibly the players or some other hidden factors.
Phil Martin
45   Posted 04/01/2011 at 09:40:33

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This just gets better:

"Moyes ruined Saha" : except Man U released him for £0 because they couldn't rely him. 20 goals in 60 apps would suggest Moyes has revived his career.

"Moyes ruined Johnson" : So why did we sell him for a profit?

"Moyes ruined Yakubu" : Was Moyes directly responsible for Yak's achillie's tendon blowing? I dont think so.

"Moyes can't motivate the players anymore." : If thats true, why do the players frequent the media with soundbites lauding the spirit and togetherness at the club?

"Moyes blew his budget": How exactly do you blow a budget of £0.00? Are you suggesting he should've asked Chelsea to release Drogba on a free, instead of signing Beckford?

IF (and it's a big if) we win a few consecutive games. Our entire season could change as the table is that close. String a few wins and your back up there. OK top 5 was always unrealistic. But top 6 or 7 is still possible. Donovan was the catalyst last January for a great 2nd half. We now need another. Only yet again Moyes is having to pluck someone from thin air on a loan. As it seems he's already "blown his budget".
Gavin Ramejkis
46   Posted 04/01/2011 at 10:24:52

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Phil,

Saha hasn't scored a goal since February and is being played in a team with no feed from midfield, but as he's only on £65k a week and it's just his job to coach, manage team selection and tactics, it's not really Moyes' fault is it?

Watch Johnson footage in his first season with us, marauding into the opposition area with the ball at his feet with only maybe one defender and keeper to beat, switch to his season before he left chasing aimless hoofballs into the corner flag or trying to win headers against defenders with at least a foot advantage in height, another team thinks they can play the football to suit his talents and offers what they agree is a fair price for him, but as he's only on £65k a week and it's just his job to coach, manage team selection and tactics, it's not really Moyes' fault is it?

Watch Yakubu's first season with us and count the goals with the support from midfield and him not having to track back to the halfway line to get the ball or pull out to the wing to act as a supplier instead of a goalscorer, injury aside his game was changed fundamentally by the gameplay he was asked to play in, but as he's only on £65k a week and it's just his job to coach, manage team selection and tactics, it's not really Moyes' fault is it?

The soundbites from the players are club propoganda, if your employer asks you to put some positive shit out about the company you do it, this has been going on for years. Watch the players on the pitch arguing amongst themselves this season, watch Moyes and Round waste fucking ages with tatty bits of paper trying to teach subs how to play football, but as he's only on £65k a week and it's just his job to coach, manage team selection and tactics, it's not really Moyes' fault is it?

Not sure where the blew his budget came from as everyone and his dog knew he had fuck all budget thanks to Kenshite for the second year on the run. (Last season he had nothing until the last minute sale of Lescott)
Phil Martin
47   Posted 04/01/2011 at 10:55:46

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Gavin,

I'm not sure you understood my points. I'm referring to some crazy statements that suggested Moyes single handedly was responsible for the demise of several players. I'm not arguing that Saha has been poor or that Moyes is underperforming as a manager -currently.

Are you arguing that Saha (although extremely disappointing this year) was ruined by Moyes - 20 goals in 60 apps?
Likewise Johnson, sold for a profit?
Regarding Yakubu -not so long ago suffering that injury was a career finisher. Most athletes never regain the same level of performance from the achilles afterwards.
His attitude is sometimes poor and he can be prone to sulks. Just ask Boro fans before he signed for us. Could it be possible that he just isn't showing enough in training? Or do YOU know that he is, and Moyes is blindly ignoring our most natural goal scorer because DM is stupid.

I know propaganda and rarely visit the O/S for very long. However players arguing during an appalling run of form only shows they care. What do you expect them to do, group hugs at 2-0 down?

Someone further up ridiculously stated that Moyes has spunked his budget on the wrong positions. Again I wanted to clarify you can't mis-spend nothing. But I agree BK is responsible.
Gavin Ramejkis
48   Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:39:00

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Phil, the price for Johnson was only what Fulham were willing to pay, it has nothing to do with what Moyes did to him as a player and that Fulham recognised an opportunity to play him running ta defences and not into lost causes into the corner flag which Moyes most definitely did turn him into. When was the last time Saha scored Phil? February, the stat of so many goals in so many matches doesn't change the fact he hasn't scored in nearly a year (well before last season ended) and that is most certainly down to Moyes to an extent in that he should have been dropped and fought for his place instead of being played week in week out. Watch the gameplay between his first season and now (when he does actually get a game) and you'll see his position on the park is all over the place instead of up where he belongs; in or around the box. Some of it is attitude but wouldn't you have an attitude if you were played like a fiddle? If he was deemed as not being able to return to a level agreeable by Moyes then it's Moyes' job to get shut and replace via BK.

The arguing amongst the players was a retort to your all is fine and dandy claims about the Pravda propaganda pieces, reality is showing on the park, I'd believe that before I ever believed the OS.
Gavin Ramejkis
49   Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:50:09

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The gameplay and subsequent get shut referring to Yak not Saha
Phil Martin
50   Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:27:34

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Gavin,

Sorry but I wont re-state my point again which you continue to miss about those players. No player was ever ruined and subsequently re-sold at a higher value than originally purchased.

I'm not sure I ever suggested everything was "fine and dandy". My initial comment addreses the statement suggesting Moyes has lost the dresing room.
Your observation that players occasionaly arguing in the midst of a bad performance under tremendous pressure. Is a sign that the team spirit is broken is incorrect. Again, what do you expect them to do -the huddle, every time we conceed?
Dale Hathaway
51   Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:27:19

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Phil, I am not sure how long your rose tinted specs will keep hiding the pain but I think Gavin has done a great job in trying to explain to you. It is irrelevant whether we made a profit on Johnson, he ended up 'having to contribute more', Yak 'has to contribute more', Beattie has to contribute more... the list goes on. So whilst Moyes has a squad filled with 10 midfielders (not including Heitinga) he is not content. He wants his strikers to stop being strikers and try to be suppliers and fighters. Sorry but even a 5 year old can understand that if your striker is not in position then whats the point of making him chase the ball back to pass to an empty space caused by the striker going missing.

Phil does Saha or Yak look happy? Why? Is it because Moyes has ruined another two strikers?
Gavin Ramejkis
52   Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:37:09

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Phil, Moyes made such bad use of Johnson that he was neither use nor ornament by the time he got shut, the price he got had nothing to do with that but you appear to glaze over that explanation given twice. Take a moment and compare when Yakubu joined and the role he played with that he has been asked to play since returning from injury. If as you say he would never be the same player then Moyes is in the prime position to make the call of retain him and play him to his strengths or get shut, he has done neither. The players are constantly looking at the touchline as Moyes constantly barks at them, this trait goes way before the current "bad run" your counter to his losing the dressing room was to claim the Pravda back slapping shit from the likes of Neville must mean all is well to which the retort was its just toeing the party line and pretty meaningless.

I expect Moyes to do his job Phil, get the players playing and winning games, drop those not performing, change tactics and strategy to change a game, he does none of those things. The players shouldn't need to huddle or scream at each other Phil, a bloke is stood on the touchline on £65k a week to make it happen.
Andrew Laird
53   Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:37:41

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Gavin, try to make a sentence from the following: brick, head, wall, banging, against, You, are, your, a.
Phil Martin
54   Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:54:00

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Dale, Gavin and Andrew,

It's me who is banging my head here.
If any of you actually bothered to read my posts. you'd see the words

"Moyes is underperforming"

I've already agreed Saha has been very poor this year. But why does a change of player form mean Moyes has ruined him?
Has Fergie ruined Rooney. 1 goal from open play since March would suggest so, eh? Using your logic

Also, if ruining a player means increasing his value then I'm sure many more managers would love to do just that.

So please stop trying to put me in the "DM lover" box. If you want to have whinge fine. But I can't tolerate pathetic childish quips from blokes who can't even be arsed to fully read posts expressing opinions contrary to their own.

If this is too much to handle, I suggest you take a warm bath and open up your wrists.
Andrew Laird
55   Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:12:17

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In the interests of balance Phil, I will offer you the same sentence to make from the same words as Gavin. That is as far as I will go I'm afraid as I prefer a nice cold shower instead (really not sure for the need of your last sentence to prove that other people are childish, perspective needed please).
Please remember that opinions are never the same and people will agree/ disagree as they see fit, it matters not if someone's horse is higher than yours or vice versa. I appreciate your opinions although I dont agree with many of them, the world would be a boring place if we all thought the same, no? have you ever heard of agreeing to disagree?
I am not preaching to you (although it might appear that way!), merely stating my opinion which I was led to believe was the idea of such pages. I am not as precious as you might think and I would like to believe that you aren't either, can't we all just get along? There is one common denominator in all of us on these topics and that is that we passionately support Everton FC, always have and always will.
Gavin Ramejkis
56   Posted 04/01/2011 at 17:32:43

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Phil I don't take offence at the wrist slashing suggestion but suggest it's not a good post to make in case it does cause offence with others.

You compare Rooney who has both been injured and not recovered fully due to his being played and playing for Engerland and his penchant for whores with Saha and Yakubu which to say the least is a trite comparison.

I've read your posts and responded at least three times saying in effect the same things which strangely can be seen by others but not you which would suggest blinkers or not reading mine.

Take a moment to reflect Phil, the world doesn't revolve around your views or mine, this is a web page for people to post their views and respond to other views, it isn't open combat or a place to suggest I slash my wrists because I responded to counter your perspective.
Dale Hathaway
57   Posted 04/01/2011 at 18:29:22

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Oh dear Phil, to suggest that three people participate in mass suicide rings a few alarm bells. Because you have encountered opinions which you dont understand you have simply shown how degenerate you really are. I understood each of your comments and am glad you have such a strong opinion. My opinion is just that, my opinion. Some of my posts may be factually correct some may simply be me voicing an opinion on which I feel passionately.

You see I do strongly feel that Moyes has ruined those aforementioned strikers. It doesn't take an astrophysicist to work out the one department we are lacking is the strikers, yet we bought two (top class) strikers who are both capable of being 20-goals-a-season players.

Tell me then why is Moyes looking for someone to score? The answer is right in front of him. He just needs to open his eyes and see the Frankenstein-like creations he has made with his "I don't want to lose a game" approach.

Not wanting to lose is great but at the same time you must want to win; each of those strikers were great and able to win games but not with Moyes tactics. If you were a manager and Moyes wanted to loan one of your strikers, what would you do?

Perhaps Phil you should take a long hard look at yourself and grow up a little. Hurling cheap insults at strong minded people will ultimately get you nowhere.

Sam Hoare
58   Posted 04/01/2011 at 18:33:26

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To be fair i think Phil makes valid points.

Its difficult to argue that a player has been ruined when he is sold for a profit, which Johnson was and Saha could well have been before this season!

To then just repeat that he did ruin the players is not to make a retort but just to ignore the development of the argument.

There is no doubt that Moyes doesn't play a system prone to lazy strikers and any striker will be required to chase and chase....but is that really that much to ask for the highest paid players in a team?

Where does this desire to excuse the players of all blame come from?!
Dale Hathaway
59   Posted 04/01/2011 at 18:57:20

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The players are trained by the manager to follow his tactics, his strategies. I personally don't think you can blame the players. It is clear they don't like his tactics. Therefore I don't apportion any blame to the players that Moyes chooses to use. I blame the manager; he thinks they are the right people to represent him the best, therefore he should accept the blame.

Sam, I believe that I did mention several times why I feel that he has ruined the players. Not merely ignoring development. I agree we made a profit on Johnson, but look at the circumstances when he was sold. There were not an abundance of English-born strikers available and we sold him to a team who were chasing Europe which is where the relevance comes in. We had the selling power because of the market, not because of the player.

Saha has provided a better return you may say than previous seasons, well if I am not mistaken he would have scored that many if not more anywhere due to the fact that his fitness levels have held up and injuries subsided. The figures that were highlighted were very true but there are always mitigating circumstances that surround them.

Sam Hoare
60   Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:13:55

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Dale, is that not to de-ify the manager somewhat? Fair enough he has to work with the players but surely you cannot absolve them of responsibility altogether...they are not children, but highly paid professionals.

Plus if they have been able to function well in Moyes system then why not now?

On the striker ruining front, yes there may be mitigating factors but 'ruined' is a strong word and surely not many managers would pay over the odds for someone so 'ruined'. Also if the system is so destructive why is it that 'ruined' strikers such as Beattie, Johnson and Mcfadden don't exactly set the world alight upon departing.
Otto Heinonen
61   Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:34:23

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It is a deja vu number three,,or four..maybe even five. We are should be done with Moyes by now. Losing to WBA? Losing to Stoke? Moyes is failing game after game and not willing to change anything.

Why is Kenwasting time? We should either get rid of Dave and try to make something out of this season or sell Saha,
Otto Heinonen
62   Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:00:06

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And probably Arteta, Pienaar, Bily and Heitinga too...
Gavin Ramejkis
63   Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:51:53

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Sam, I'll do this slowly as you too appear to have missed the response despite it being there at least three times.

Yakubu, never a lone striker, requires assistance, first season, gets plenty of midfield support and returns the first 20 plus goal return since Peter Beardsley. Subsequent seasons and post injury sees him isolated by chopping and changing midfielders and during his injury the use of midfielders. Upon his return he is so isolated he is having to come to the halfway line or take the ball out to the wing and corner flag to put a cross into the box hoping Cahill will take a shot. Forgive me for pointing out the FUCKING OBVIOUS AGAIN, is Yakubu a striker or winger or midfielder?

Andy Johnson, try youtubing any of his first season as you like Phil don't appear to remember how he played; ball to feet running through the centre directly towards goal, so much so an end of season investigation agreed he should have been given far more penalties for the fouls committed against him. Cut to subsequent seasons before he was eventually sold, scan this website for match reports and count how many times he is described as a headless chicken trying to win headers from endless hoofballs against taller defenders and chasing lost causes into the corner flags. Surely so many match reports and so much commentary couldn't possibly be biased could it?

Again, carefully, slowly explained that a buyer will only pay what they deem is the correct price for something, clearly Fulham chased Johnson as an answer to the striker required to play to their strengths despite his diminishing goal return at Everton NOT because of it.

I really can't be arsed saying it over again after this, if you can't understand it you never will.
Martin Handley
64   Posted 04/01/2011 at 22:16:48

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To anyone thinking of defending Moyes just look at his last interview today were he all but gives up on getting anybody in on loan or otherwise,never have I known an Everton manager to be so defeatist, blow me Ian Holloway at Blackpool has had less than nothing to try and bring in players and manages to get DJ Campbell, Luke Varney and several others and they haven't done a bad job have they?

They've scored more goals than us,have more points than us and are better placed in the league.

Sam for all your talk of our pretty possession football we're a poor mans Arsenal and at least they have an end product whereas we don't!

Bring back the so called long ball days of Joe Royle, when if you remember because I do we played a fair few teams off the park and scored goals for fun too as I remember.

The fact is Moyes has ruined every striker he's got of the likes of Beattie, Johnson, Yak etc all scored goals for fun at their previous clubs yet after 12 months under Moyes couldn't score in a brothel!

We are in BIG trouble mate and I honestly believe that if we fail to get a win in our next 3 games he wiil be sacked or forced to fall on his sword.

I believe that there is some money available for the manager to spend but the man that really holds the purse strings Robert Earl has had enough of Moyes and will force his hand.

It's just my opinion Sam and I'm sure I'll be slated for it but there you go.

Robbie Shields
65   Posted 04/01/2011 at 22:07:17

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Interesting debate guys, I personally think that Phil and Sam are neglecting the market forces of supply and demand together with footballing knowledge of players ability and potential when assessing the value of a player. If Maradona in his prime was bought by Moyes and played the same way he has insisted on playing the Yak, Saha, Beattie etc etc. Then I would confidently predict he would be half the player he was. However, if a genius of a manager looked at Maradona playing up front on his own chasing long balls into ccorners
Robbie Shields
66   Posted 04/01/2011 at 22:53:29

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............. Or high balls pumped up to him to win headers, control the ball, beat 3 defenders and score, all with his back to goal, and then got fed up continuously trying to do that after not scoring, getting knackered and frustrated, whilst also being told he needs to do more and score more goals....., decided to pay more than the original price paid for him (because years had passed and the prices paid for players almost always go up not down as more money comes into the game) it would not mean that Moyes hadnt ruined him during his time at Everton.

God help the next striker Moyes buys, he's on a one way ticket to oblivion!!!!!!!!!!!!
David Hallwood
67   Posted 04/01/2011 at 23:58:19

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Dale Hathaway (#58), this time last year we were preparing for the inevitable departure of Saha to Arsenal, and it was profoundly depressing because just like Cahill?s goals this season, it was Saha?s that kept us from being in the drop zone this time last season (incidentally gents do you realise that we?re only 1pt worse off than last season?). Then it was announced that he had signed that big fat juicy contract (none of your pay as you play bollocks) and has downed tools ever since.

Now he was being coached by Moyes this time last year so either Moyes has become a crap coach (and the jury?s out on that one) or Saha?s injured or simply can?t be arsed. I won?t put myself forward as the font of all football knowledge, but I?ve seen enough footballers to sort out the good ones from the bad ones and the ones that give their all and the ones that cannot be arsed and Saha is definitely in the good player but can?t be arsed. For my money Moyes should be criticized for tolerating the fucker for a long as he has.

And as for Yak, obviously there is something going on behind the scenes, but I know a player totally out of condition when I see one and the Yak is that, and that is a disgrace, a total lack of professionalism, and for people to not blame these two ?professionals? when they?ve been given the talent to kick a ball at a time when they?re getting paid ludicrous amounts of money almost beggars belief.
Tony J Williams
68   Posted 05/01/2011 at 00:37:14

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Martin, Blackpool spent more on heir transfers this season than us. There's the reason why we don't have any decent strikers.

Good Point David about Saha, last year he was off to Le Arse playing the exact same formation but apparently this year it seems to be a "different" system, a "negative" one now.

Martin, the conversation about the strikers has been done to death already. Meattie had one good season and was turning gash before we bought him, AJ again had one good season but almost half of his goals were pens.

Yakubu, again playing the same system as now, scored 20 then went lazy, fat and got injured. The rest is history. Please tell me how a manager who asks his forwards to do more than goal hang is asking too much form the exorbitantly overpaid forward? Aj's last league goal was in the 2008/2009 season. Meattie has yet to score in the Scottish League, despite playing for the second placed team. The half season before he came to us he has scored 3 goals and the seaons before last he scored a massive 2 goals in 22 games.

To ruin someone, they have to be good before hand.
Robbie Shields
69   Posted 05/01/2011 at 01:03:59

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Tony, some of us on here have been complaining about the system Moyes plays for YEARS, myself being one of them. It is very easy for 1-0 scrappy wns done with crap football to turn into defeats, some of them heavy defeats, given either bad luck or average luck.

By saying the strikers mentioned had 1 good season and weren't good before hand you have inadvertently exposed Moyes as not having any clue as to how good they actually were. £11 million for Yak, £9 million or so each for Beattie and Johnson? That means the Moyesiah has spent £30 million on 3 rubbish strikers, by your own admission!

You can't score 20 plus goals a season as a striker if your not in the box and don't have chances created for you.
Roman Sidey
70   Posted 05/01/2011 at 04:07:10

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PHIL, a number of issues with your post asking whether Rooney had been ruined by Sir Alex.
1. If you look at it on a 2 person basis, that is, the 2 people involved, Rooney and Sir Alex, then yes. It was the manager's fault. Why did Rooney have such a bad run? Can we all agree that it was probably the transfer saga that he eventually signed. I'm not saying Ferguson was in the wrong, but in Rooney's head, the manager wasn't giving him what he needed, so said head wasn't on the ball, thus said head was not putting said ball into the net. Rooney was in the wrong, but Ferguson should have kicked his arse a lot sooner.
2. You say that just because strikers like Johnson were sold for profit he wasn't ruined. What happened to that profit? We didn't invest it ina better striker. Moyes has more midfielders than most clubs, yet he keeps buying them. Fellaini was our record signing, and this was when we were still short of a class striker, and with an abundance in the midfield.

For the record, Johnson and Yakubu all scored the most goals while at Everton when they were playing alongside another striker.
Roman Sidey
71   Posted 05/01/2011 at 04:13:49

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Also, stop using the injuries to defend the manager. Fitness is part of the job, and I do believe that if youhave 6 long term injuries at the same time, some of your traning and conditioning methods need to be questioned too.
Tony J Williams
72   Posted 05/01/2011 at 08:59:52

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Roman, did those long term injuries occur on the training ground or by impacts/collisions in a competetive match?

No matter how you train or condition a player if he gets stood on by, let's say a shithouse Newcastle player, how is that a training issue? It was obviously Baz's fault etc etc
Roman Sidey
73   Posted 05/01/2011 at 09:13:08

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A lot of our injuries happened either mid-week, you know when a player plays one game then doesn't turn up the next. Also, not all of them were from collisions. Some were from falling the wrong way on a knee or similar. These, no matter how you look at them, are down to fitness and conditioning. Yes, we can blame Baz, but blaming him is like blaming the players for selecting the wrong 11. David Moyes picks him and could have taken him to task a lot earlier than he did. Is it just a coincidence that now that Rathbone is gone, we have a lot less injuries?
Tony J Williams
74   Posted 05/01/2011 at 09:49:23

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Therre really should be a sarcastic font on the tinterweb.

Which injuries wouild they be Roman? Our last long term injuries are Arteta, knee turned awkwardly on the Newcastle pitch, Jags, knee turned awkwardly on the Goodison pitch, Fellaini, possibly 50/50 to blame with the Greek butcher, jumped in and was jumped on - nothing to do with conditioning and as above Anichebe was assaulted by Nolan. The only other long term injuries is either Vaughan and Saha and we all know they are both made out of balsa wood
Roman Sidey
75   Posted 05/01/2011 at 11:37:27

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You said it Tony, Arteta and Jags turned awkwardly on the pitch. Fellaini and Anichebe were involved in collisions or assault - good use of words mind - which can't be helped by training sometimes. But if you ask anyone with a background in bio-mechanics or physio, for a professional athlete to "turn awkwardly" is down to fitness - think outside of match fitness or cardio fitness etc. There are no exuses for players like Vaughan and Saha to be made of glass. They are, once again, profesional athletes, and if they aren't fit, then 1) their coaching staff hasn't done the right thing by them, and 2) They shouldn't be selected in the team in the first place.
I won't blame Moyes for Vaughan however, as I blame the young chap's mediocre excuse for professionalism. Seriously, who the fuck breaks their arm while in rehab for a knee injury?!
Sam Hoare
76   Posted 05/01/2011 at 12:36:48

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Gavin

As our editor has pointed out no need to resort to swearing!

Having worked in finance i have decent understanding of market resources but you are ignoring my point.

You say:

'clearly Fulham chased Johnson as an answer to the striker required to play to their strengths despite his diminishing goal return at Everton NOT because of it.'

But why would any club want a 'ruined' striker as an answer to their striking problems?!!! Yes we may not have played to his strengths but to suggest that we ruined a striker is a tad over dramatic.

Also i'm not sure i can agree that we our style of football has changed that much over the last few years. Are you suggesting that we played better football in Yak first or Johnson first season....a trawl through the reports would suggest we played more hoofball then than now.

Which kind of totally undermines your argument.

Now try to retort using nice grown up language!
Dale Hathaway
77   Posted 05/01/2011 at 12:46:34

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Sam, I quote your post... " Also if the system is so destructive why is it that 'ruined' strikers such as Beattie, Johnson and Mcfadden don't exactly set the world alight upon departing. " Now in the most grown up words I can muster, does that not define ruined? We get one to one and a half good seasons from them and then that is it! Because Moyes wants them to chase the ball into the corner flags leaving no strikers in the box for a resulting cross. Strikers needed not wingers.

Sam perhaps your financial markets experience has taught you about appreciating and depreciating assets? About commodoties and the value of them in the market place? The more of something you have available which is in high demand raises the prices? Footballers values on average increase year on year. English born players in English clubs is a neccessity in Europe these days. Hopefully you will show some grown up common sense before responding?
Dale Hathaway
78   Posted 05/01/2011 at 13:05:08

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@ David (67) Our two best strikers, Yak & Saha have obviously had it with dithering Dave. Just watch their facial expressions throughout the match. Chase long ball after long ball into the corner flags. Then at the end of the game your manager tells the world he is worried that you're not scoring goals anymore. Oh and dont worry if you get upset and think that you want to leave because Moyes has God like powers when it comes to his squad. He would rather it turn into a debacle ala Pienaar/ Anichebe and force you out of a contract. How petty and naive is that? And you wonder why they look frustrated? Also if you can notice the Yak's conditiong to be so bad how then is it so that Moyes and his multi million pound contract can't?
Tony J Williams
79   Posted 05/01/2011 at 13:26:53

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Didn't realise Dale that Moyes has control over the contracts. Must have gotten an accountants and legal badge with his coaching one.

Also maybe the facial expresion is to do with any midfielder not giving the ball to their feet or ahead of them to run onto in 20 games and counting.

There has been a drastic reduction in aimless hoofs into the corner this season, it has been replaced wth a monotonous jog up the park on the right hand side or a quick break on the left with absolutely no end product.

I can't remembre the last time I saw the Yak run, let alone run aimlessly into corners, probably the same with Saha.

Roman, No 2 is probably the most likely but when you have one of the smallest squads in the premiership, picking Balsa wood players sometimes becomes necessary, especially over overweight lazy feckers or useless ones.

It is quite ironic that Saha has been his fittest he has ever been with us probably but has been cack on the field
Phil Martin
80   Posted 05/01/2011 at 13:56:41

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Gavin, Dale,

C'mon guys don't be so sensitive. You know it was a throw away comment aimed at your over the top reactions. Which you subsequently over-reacted to again.

Back to the subject Dale, you once again totally miss the point. Why would anyne pay big money for a "ruined" player? Seriously, english or not. "Let's sign this striker, he's been ruined, but he is English so £11.5m is a fair price" - i don't think so.

With regards Yakubu, Moyes made the mistake of thinking he could coach and develop Yakubu to include work rate into his game. Doing the unglamorous stuff like harrying defenders and chasing balls down. So it didn't work, possibly because of Yak's coaching (implemented by Moyes) or possibly because Yak doesn't really fancy it. We don't know. Either way the injury from 2008 is what's really damaged his career.

Several clubs were targeting Saha this summer. Only Moyes realised £3-5M recouped on Saha might not be enough to buy a 1 goal every 3 games replacement (his Everton career record -not bad for a ruined player). So we kept him. Now you can say with hindsight that Saha has been poor and we should get rid. But it wasnt that clear cut back in the summer. Especially when DM didnt have any guarantees he'd see any of the potential profits to re-invest.

Robbie Sheilds, market forces or not. A 'ruined' (defined as substantially inferior to previous standards) player doesn't sell for profit. End of!

Roman,
I used the Rooney example to play devil's advocate. A loss of form doesn't always = a permanent degredation of a player's ability. And it doesn't always suggest the manager is at fault.

Did Wenger ruin Jeffers and Reyes?

Your second point I agree with, but I was never arguing against. We have more midfielders because we play 5 at a time. We also had Arteta on a long term injury. So midfielders probably where his priority.

Interestingly Palace succesfully utilised Johnson in a 4-5-1 (the year we signed him). So clearly playing the lone role was within his remit.

Just some facts and my opinion fellas....
Sam Hoare
81   Posted 05/01/2011 at 14:27:27

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Ha. Dale.

A good goader, a poor businessman.

To quote you:

'The more of something you have available which is in high demand raises the prices.'

Actually the opposite. The less of something you have in high demand raises the price. The basics of supply and demand. But good effort. I love it when someone tries to talk down and gets it wrong!

Going back to football doesn't those players continuing faliures suggest that maybe they weren't actually that good after all? Or were they so fragile that having to play chase ball for two seasons totally destroyed them? Either way doesn't make it look like they were destined to be champions!!

You're turn little Dale.
Roman Sidey
82   Posted 07/01/2011 at 03:21:14

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Ruining strikers or not, no Everton supporter can argue that most of the strikers Moyes has brought in have started fantastically (Saha did as soon as he was fit) and then dropped considerably. Explain it in whichever way you like, but their form or thier persistent presence in the team is down to poor management.

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