Expectation is a funny thing. A team can go through years of mediocrity then after very encouraging and consistent improvement fans are too quick to jump on the get rid of Moyes bandwagon because we are drawing too many games. On a limited budget against free spending well backed competitors, Davey?s achievements are nothing short of outstanding. Manager of the Year awards and football pundits all recognise this so I am at a loss for some of the venom spouted on various sites.
This brings me back to where I started. Expectation has been raised significantly after our best run since 1987 from January to May 2010. If only last season didn?t end as I even bought season tickets for me and 2 kids thinking this season was THE one! My mates have also given me plenty of stick for selling them the idea that we were finally back and they would be fools to miss it. Sorry lads for the £1400 this cost for you and your kids but I know the second half will be worth it!
If only we'd got that forward we needed?
The progression made under Moyes is remarkable and if you remember the dark era through the 90?s and early 00?s as disappointingly as I do then I for one trust him to still lead our club to heights nobody else could have taken us. There is nobody out there that could replace him and I dread the day a bigger club comes and takes him off us. Here are some statistics for the doubters out there who maybe don?t realise what Moyes has achieved despite spending less than £10 million (net) in 8 years! ,p. Between 1997 and 2002 before Moyes we averaged 42 points per season, 9.5 wins a year from 38 games conceding 55 goals per season finishing in 16th! Bad times! A derby win was often the only high point of the season.
Moyes joined in 2002, named us the people?s club and kept us up when we looked doomed. Not a bad start.
From 2003-2005 in his first 3 seasons he started by buying bargain basement deals for Martyn, Kilbane and Mcfadden for less than £3 million, Yobo for £4.5 million, Tim Cahill (the best buy of the decade) for 1.8 million and Beattie (not the best) for £6 million. He also introduced Wayne Rooney to the world and sold him to pave the way for his rebuilding. Radzinski, Linderoth and Graveson also went to the combined return of £35 million. With Walter's players gone and money in the bank the first stage of Moyes rebuilding saw us average 53 pts and 9th place. An 11 point and 7 place improvement on the previous 6 years.
He had made us harder to beat and we were masters of nicking goals and holding on. Progress was made as relegation was no longer a concern and the top half of the table comfortable. Finishing 4th and getting to the champions league qualifiers and being robbed by a Collina led FIFA conspiracy decision with that disallowed goal. Who knows what would have happened had we been given that goal. It stands with Heysel as one of the worst moments of my Everton life for thoughts of how good things could have been.
In his next 3 years, 2006-08, the foundations were laid, we had a new state-of-the-art training complex, a much better youth set up and an influx of young and hungry players to take us to the next level. Out went Bent, Kilbane, Davies, Naysmith, Beattie and Mcfadden for £16.5 million and in came Neville £4m to bring more desire and experience, Arteta for a ridiculous £2m (the 2nd best buy of the decade) and Davies for £3m.
In 2007 he started splashing the cash on Johnson £8.6m and added more quality with Jags, Howard, Lescott and Pienaar all for just £14 million adding Baines and the Yak for £17.25 million. Out went Kilbane and Davies for £3m and several other ins and outs yet still having spent very little money from all the wheeling and dealing. Yes, he got some wrong ? Krøldrup, Davies, Beattie ? but he doesn?t mess about and moves them on. He can be decisive and I am sure he will dither less as he continues to learn the art of his profession.
Ultimately there was a lot of change and team building during his 2nd 3 years in charge and in this time our average finish was 7.5th, we averaged 2 more points a season than his first 3 years, 1 more win and a 13 better goal difference per season. We started playing football to be proud of, finished above the Reds for the first time since 1987, went to Europe and were sadly beaten on penalties versus Fiorentina in the UEFA cup after the best night at Goodison since Bayern in 1985. I was worried that I may never see nights like these again before Moyes came along.
In 2009-10 we got Fellaini who will go on to be one of the best defensive midfielders in Europe, Rodwell, Anichebe came through the ranks and he found Coleman for an unbelievable £65,000. This one could beat Cahill?s value for money as he is going to be a star for many years in a blue shirt. Saha also joined for a small fee (if any) to add that class we needed up front.
Lescott left for over £23 million unsettling us and Moyes replaced him with Distin for a fraction of the cost and bought the versatile Heitinga and enigmatic Billy which with hindsight were big mistakes that he will learn from. I hope we can get the money back on these 2 quickly and get the pacy forward and winger we need to catapult us to the next level. Hopefully Piennar will stay if he knows we have a chance of progressing. Johnson with job done and next level reached went for £8m again more or less balancing the books so I can?t work out why we have so much debt side tracking a little?
In the last 2 years though, we have averaged 62 points. This was a 7 point improvement on the previous 3 years and a 20 point improvement per season on the 6 years before he arrived! Our goal difference has also averaged +14, a 6 goal improvement on 2005-08 and a 19 better goal difference on his first 3 years. We were no longer fodder for the big 4 and Goodison was starting to become a fortress again. A memorable day out to Wembley to beat Man Utd on penalties and coming so close to our first trophy for 14 years against Chelsea. I will be eternally grateful for Davey Moyes who was considered the Moysiah until expectation levels catapulted to those of the early 80s but you have to remember that we have made constant progress under Moyes. We have a group of youngsters a year or two from peaking and with a couple of clever deals in and out I am still convinced we can win something under him and get near the champions league next year.
We are in safe hands and only bad luck and a little too much caution has prevented us from being where we should be. From the 10 draws this season there were at least 5 we should have won which would have been 10 points and level with Chelsea in 5th. We have seen some shocking luck especially in losing games to West Brom when the guy who got Arteta sent off should have gone for knocking Baines out and given us a penalty. We lost 1-0 to Blackburn to start us off terribly after keeping 70% of the possession and 12 shots to their 5 and lost to a daft Howard mistake.
At Villa Park, we battered them with 18 corners, 68% possession and failed to score. We had double the shots Arsenal had and 9 corners to 2 and got caught twice by sucker punches. We just need some luck in front of goal and hopefully at least someone decent on loan to bang them in. Saha might even go on to be the player we know he can be after regaining some confidence recently?
This season we have only won 5 games but these were against teams that actually had a go at us and we simply need to take chances against the lesser teams. Liverpool, Spurs, Man City and Birmingham who hadn?t lost at home for nearly 20 games were all great victories. Draws against Spurs and Chelsea away and Man Utd at home are further proof that we are getting much closer to the big 4 other than our ability to put the ball away. Moyes will get this right, just give him time and maybe, just maybe, and without raising expectations even more; next year will be the one!
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1 Posted 09/01/2011 at 01:49:24
Yes most of the facts you use are true but up until the spurs game we were truly dismal to watch. No plan b. The same old tactics if you can call them that. Don't get me started on subs!
The real test will be liverpool. Will Moyes have the conviction to continue with an attacking formation or will he regress back into his old rabbit in the headlights skin and play 541? That will be a better time to judge him.
2 Posted 09/01/2011 at 02:01:17
That said, I completely agree with you, that up until the Spurs game, everything about our football was shite - no plan B, shite tactics, dismal football, poor subs, etc.
And it is this conundrum that's polarising us fans today: do we judge Moyes on the basis of his overall tenure and stick with him trusting that he'll "come good" eventually? Or do we judge by recent history and go for a new manager on the basis that Moyes has failed miserably for the past two seasons to capitalise on all the good work he'd achieved previously?
Added to this are the questions of whether a new manager would necessarily succeed considering the lack of support from the board, and who that manager should be should Moyes be replaced.
I think Lyndon's recent excellent article (Can we insert a link, please, Michael?) encapsulates all the points that have been raised surrounding this issue on this forum. But that article was written pre-Spurs game.
Since then, we've seen a seemingly resurgent Everton playing some of the best (if not, the best) football we've seen all season. In that respect, I agree with you that the "real test will be Liverpool". Not only that, I'd expand that statement to say that the real test will be the rest of the season: how will Moyes approach the remaining games we have this season?
If, as it appears, Moyes has grown a set of balls and is willing to adopt different approaches, tactics, formations, etc, for different games while playing his best team than simply his favourite players for the remaining games, then I say let's stick with him and hope that he carries on this mindset over to the new season. However unlikely it may seem, it is not impossible that Moyes may have finally shed his defensive mindset.
Conversely, if Moyes reverts to type and the team regresses to its one-dimensional gameplay that has been symptomatic of our season so far, then I agree: it is time for Moyes to go as he doesn't appear to be capable of taking us any further, regardless of what his history suggests.
So, I guess what I'm saying is: yup, let's stick with Moyes, but until the end of the season, at which time, I think we will be in a better position to judge whether he's the right person to take us forward or not. (I mean, what are the alternatives? For us to get rid of him and install an interim manager a la Dalglish? If so, who? Kendall?)
Regardless of how it all pans out - i.e. whether Moyes stays or goes - I think there needs to be a serious, concerted campaign from us fans to let the board know that this season has been a season of wasted potential, and that the board should be held partly responsible for it. Even if we do, by a stroke of miracle, achieve success in, say, the FA Cup and the season ends on a high, I seriously think we need to enforce this point on the board.
The question of Moyes staying or going is only one-half of the equation and is primarily dictated by events on the pitch. The other half relates to the board and for there to be real change and progress, we need to ensure that there is sustained pressure applied on the board for it to deliver the support needed - regardless of what happens on the pitch or who our manager may be.
3 Posted 09/01/2011 at 02:55:25
4 Posted 09/01/2011 at 03:27:59
The only scenario in which I would maybe like to see Moyes go is a scenario in which we were bought out and given some money. Moyes has a knack for finding young players for cheap, i.e. Cahill, Coleman, Fellaini. When you have money to spend, it becomes less about finding and developing talent and more about tactics, which is Moyes weakness. Moyes, for the foreseeable future, is without a doubt in my mind, the right man for the job.
5 Posted 09/01/2011 at 03:53:23
6 Posted 09/01/2011 at 04:24:25
So is the achievements of the club and the personal achievements and regard of the manager the same fucking thing? So what if Moyes has 3 manager of the year awards and countless manager of the month awards? To me, if your team isn't in the top 4 and your manager wins that, it shows just how much the people who dish out those awards think of your team/club - bit like winning the most improved award at your own club.
You then speak of Lescott's sale and his subsequent replacements in a positive light. Are you fucking mad? This was totally inept management, and where Moyes let his own pettiness once again get in the way of the club's well being.
You've used Beattie as a postive and a negative in defending and then "adding some objective material" to Moyes' case - minus points there, Nick.
I'm all for freedom of speech, and appreciate that there are people out there that are satisfied with Moyes's deceptive ineptitude, but this is, by a long way, the weakest defense I have heard about him on TW for a while.
For the record, Moyes's big test this season is how he deals with Cahill returning from the Asia Cup, which could be earlier than expected - Australia's last group game is Jan 16 and
7 Posted 09/01/2011 at 04:51:06
no one seems to fathom the idea that the Socceroos aren't actually that good.
8 Posted 09/01/2011 at 04:45:57
I think the positives are:
He loves the club and the fans.
He works his tripe off which the players seem to respect.
He is on balance a good judge of players.
He does work miracles on a non-existent budget.
But his negatives are:
He wears his heart on his sleeve and therefore the players pick up on his disenchantment.
He is too fixed in his ways.
His team selections are bizarre at times.
Overall I cannot think of anybody better than DM for EFC when he is at his best but he has to stop taking his bat and ball home if he doesn't get support from this useless board we have.
9 Posted 09/01/2011 at 05:43:57
So is it lack of money causing our Jeckyll and Hyde displays or is it something else like, i dunno, the obstinate manager and his negative tactics?? If this is the best team we've had since the 80s why do we sometimes play worse than our worst team of the 90s? We need a manager who will play to the teams strengths, not try and squeeze square pegs in round holes, then bleat about lack of funds but when they're available buys players for positions we already have cover for, instead of filling the positions everyone else can plainly see needs filling!
10 Posted 09/01/2011 at 08:12:58
Short version: The only Moyes we need is the Moyes of the last two games.
Me, I'd be looking in the fields behind Finch Farm for the saucer crater and the pods.
' Who are you and what have you done with the real Davey Moyes '
'OK it's a fair cop, so I'm a body snatcher, I had to do it, he was doing such a shit job.'
' No worries from me mate, you're doin a craking job, If I see any men in black I will give you the nod. '
11 Posted 09/01/2011 at 09:21:28
He has made some great buys and has a good squad but where does he go from here with no finance?
12 Posted 09/01/2011 at 09:17:18
First to set my stall out: I started following Everton with passion in the early 90's and David Moyes is the best manager we have had in all that time. Barring the one success we had in 1995 (bless you Sir Paul of Rideout), following our great team has, I think it's fair to say, not given me consistent cause to rejoice that I am one of the chosen. Indeed, I remember many a Monday morning going to school with my head hung in shame because we had received yet another drubbing the previous Saturday at 3 o'clock. Whenever one of my mates teams had to play us they would come to find me on the Friday afternoon with a smile on their face to remind me (as if I had forgotten) that it was them who would thump us this week. This does not happen any more, ever. Noone wants to play us any more because Moyes has changed us from a shit team to a good one.
I read this site regularly and cannot understand the negativity many have towards the guy who clearly loves the club as much as we all do and breaks his back every year to improve us despite working within a budget comparable to that of a 3rd division hockey team from Burundi.
Roman - Moyes got over £24m for Lescott. £24m! Going by him Citeh career so far his value was actually closer to £2.4m.
James - I would not describe many performances this season as being 'dismal to watch'. Of course how well we play is always in the eye of the beholder and I can understand that how you view a game may be influenced by the result but even though we'd find it easier to score in a Convent during most of the games I have been far from dismayed with our brand of football. The days of hoofball seem to be gone at last, replaced with neat passing and possession football. We seem to have the lions share of the ball in almost every game and just lack the cutting edge that could be provided by a £30m striker or maybe just by Arteta coming back on song and reacquiring his eye for the killer final pass. Obviously we have had some poor games too but who the fuck hasn't? Compared to the way Liverpoo have played this season we have been Barcelona.
Moyes has one of the best eyes for a bargain working in football today, his defence's are well drilled and stingy and he seems to have a good relationship with all of the players. Has anyone thought about where we would be if he had never joined us? Would we still be in the Premier League? Would we be going in to next week's derby as the better team? Would I be confident that we'll beat them in their own yard?
13 Posted 09/01/2011 at 10:03:50
14 Posted 09/01/2011 at 09:34:28
Please can we return to the website whose contributors live in a surreal bubble - where Morinho would replace Moyes when they sack him; where Messi's dream is to wear Royal blue; and where the club have billions secretly hoarded away to make this all happen.
Nick - I hope the body guards you hired are primed and ready. You are like Mohammed Ali who has walked into a Klu Klux Klan convention.
15 Posted 09/01/2011 at 10:00:57
Another excellent point made by Jamie is that the days of hoofball have definitely gone. We outplayed Spurs, a top attacking side, this week and fans have short memories of the tripe served up under previous regimes.
The problems really lie with the board and the lack of investment and progress. Its shameful that Donovan was not recruited permanently and that we can only really recruit players with promise or loanees, or that we have no cash for the transfer window. Moyes is right on the issue of transfers though. the most important players are the ones already at the club not the next signing.
Blind optimism and desperation for silverware at the expense of reason seems to be the lifeblood of toffeeweb. It's good to see a rational evaluation of Moyes' tenure, the man has done brilliantly with one hand tied behind his back.
16 Posted 09/01/2011 at 10:04:39
Moyes has spells were he seems to have a kind of writers block in terms of "if the tactics aren't working" but generally he gets over it and gives in to common sense. Most managers don't have time to come through these spells before knee jerk reactions show them the door (just ask whoever's coming out the revolving door over the road THIS week). Apart from these occasional dithers though he's doin a job that nobody else i can think of could do with the means at his disposal. Besides, we couldn't afford to keep paying off managers at that rate which alone has helped to steady our ship.
As for buying and selling i think we ain't done too bad when you look around the rest of the league ( i refer you to that revolving door again). Our problem with strikers is an endemic problem because its the easiest one to get wrong, there just isn't enough quality out there for the fee we could afford to offer and when you do get one he's given the least time to shine (unless your Saha).
No, on the whole i don't get the griping. We are who we are and we've got what we've got and done what we've done with that minimal amount of cash and i for one wouldn't want to go back to where we were prior to 2002, I've had too many good days since. Until we Sheik the hands of a bunch of cowboys or Indian which will always be a HUGE gamble (yeah yeah you know were I'm pointing) I'm relatively happy with Moyes and the work he's done for the budget he's got so lets just point, laugh and get on with it
17 Posted 09/01/2011 at 11:12:41
Jim Potter - if you don't like the way this website generally feels about Moyes
18 Posted 09/01/2011 at 11:17:55
then maybe it isn't the site for you.
Rory hit nail on head. The draws against Bolton, Wolves, Wigan, Blackpool, Sunderland, Fulham, West Ham, were unacceptable. We should be beating all of these teams.
19 Posted 09/01/2011 at 11:19:31
20 Posted 09/01/2011 at 11:32:29
21 Posted 09/01/2011 at 11:29:01
Also love the fact you think it's reasonable to state that this 'fan' site is not suitable for an Everton fan because he likes our current manager. Brilliant.
22 Posted 09/01/2011 at 11:45:48
Lynch mobs of snarling 'fellow Evertonians' await contributors here.
And just one small correction mate. I don't 'like' our current manager - I worship at my personal altar to him. Sometimes with clothes on.
23 Posted 09/01/2011 at 12:03:27
24 Posted 09/01/2011 at 12:14:24
Moyes said we had the best chance of reaching the top four and due to his negative tactics the club has gone backwards and there will be no Champions league next season as a result. He has cost this club millions. If I lost my employers that amount of money I would be sacked.
The club wont achieve anything until he is sent on his way.
25 Posted 09/01/2011 at 12:17:39
If you're happy with it you think Moyes is great, if not you don't. I think it's dreadful.
26 Posted 09/01/2011 at 12:33:02
Ian - everyone has the right to voice their opinion on his tactics, but I would say that given the financial stranglehold that Moyes has been restricted by, and by him saving us originally from relegation and then by amazingly qualifying for Europe on several occasions - he has actually saved us millions of pounds not squandered them.
Moyes has worked in an environment were we have had to cut our cloth accordingly. We are no longer the Merseyside Millionaires of yesteryear.
The reality of the situation (to me) is that we are a penniless club with a manager performing the best he can - with some fans who refuse to accept the restraints he's working under and just view a future Moyesless world through rose tinted (better change that to blue tinted) glasses.
Ok - I have activated my anti Fuck Off shields and await incomers ...
27 Posted 09/01/2011 at 12:51:18
When Moyes panic bought Bily and Heitinga for £15M and benches them, the money excuse falls over.
28 Posted 09/01/2011 at 12:56:54
With Bily - he hasn't settled like we all hoped. Maybe he still might. Even if he doesn't - every manager makes mistakes. I'm not a Moyes apologist - I just think there are pros and cons to everyone. And Gus Hiddink rates him highly - which isn't a bad thing.
For some the jury is still out - others are preparing the noose. Let's hope for the good of the club that he's a late developer.
29 Posted 09/01/2011 at 13:07:42
As you say this is a Moyes mistake.
Referring to your earlier post:
"Charles - of course we're not happy. But in the real world we have no money - is that Moyes' fault? "
In this instance, yes, it might be.
30 Posted 09/01/2011 at 13:20:04
31 Posted 09/01/2011 at 14:17:26
Billy is very talented and was definitely worth the risk. I always hoped he would come good but it is starting to look more and more unlikely. Johnny Heitinga has looked world class as a centre back. I wouldn't slag Moyes for signing these players, just for not playing them in their best positions.
Jamie Zeqiri ? it sounds like me and you are the same person. I remember those awful days of being mocked every time I said who I supported. You are right, it doesn't happen anywhere near as much as it used to!
32 Posted 09/01/2011 at 14:50:40
Funny, 2 good results, and we have all the apologists on here telling us how great he is. Talk about knee - jerk.
33 Posted 09/01/2011 at 14:51:44
If we continue to play positive football and actually have a go at the opposition and try to win, rather than defend defend defend, then I may start to be convinced again.
Until then I will see what his tactics/ attitude is in the comming weeks. Onw swallow does not a summer make etc. But saying that, I am more than happy with the last two games although West Ham is still fresh in the memory..........
Season is not over but right now we are at a cross roads. A good run of results and we're back in the European slots, a few bad ones and we're back in the relegation fight.
34 Posted 09/01/2011 at 16:05:22
So is the achievements of the club and the personal achievements and regard of the manager the same fucking thing? So what if Moyes has 3 manager of the year awards and countless manager of the month awards? To me, if your team isn't in the top 4 and your manager wins that, it shows just how much the people who dish out those awards think of your team/club - bit like winning the most improved award at your own club.
No, the achievements of club and manager are not the same. But we're talking about the manager, not ditching the club. If I and many others were customers rather than fans, I'd ditch the club for a better brand - but I'm not, so I won't. And I would not ditch Moyes either way.
And yes that is the point, he won three MotS awards, because he did such a good job at a club that can't afford to pay wages that bigger clubs can. You could be the next Alex Ferguson at Everton, but as soon as there;s a whiff of success, the players(eg Pienaar) will be off for wealthier clubs
Everton could not get the likes of Scott Parker, Defoe, Keane and whoever else cos we don't have the dosh for such wages. We;d have gone further had we been able to get their likes. Who has finished above us with a lower wage bill in the past five years? Name me one club in just one year!
We find players from lower leagues, other club's benches or bargains unnoticed elsewhere. And Moyes has been brilliant at it. Lose him, and we would be mid-table or bottom six regularly if Moyes left.
Everton stopped bi ng a big club in the modern sense in the 90s. We can and should aspire, but it's bullshit like this world of make believe around then hacks me off.
35 Posted 09/01/2011 at 17:03:22
Lack of funds has (IMO) nothing to do with setting the team out to consistently defend first, playing with no recognised strikers and making very odd substitutions. As said already, the achievments of the past (and I recognise them as we all do) do not mask the chaos of this start of this season.
Just because a manager did well in the past does not give him the right to manage forever. Either way, if he can continue to play positively then he will probably win back a lot of fans who were/are getting disillusioned - like myself.
We all want the club to do well but I wish people would stop going on about the past - by that definition a manager can win a cup in his first season and never get sacked because 'look what he did for us back then''.
None of us know exactly why the club has no money and the manager has none to spend. Howeveer, when he comes out saying we are broke and everyone can see a 10m player on the bench not being used and players contracts being allowed to run down, people are enttled to scratch their heads a bit.
36 Posted 09/01/2011 at 16:45:14
The lack of goals this season, is not about who plays up front. Beattie, Johnson, Yakubu and Saha were all goalscoring strikers when bought by Moyes. £26m in fact (Saha was free). It's a fact that all those strikers have failed under Moyes. Coincidence? No, Moyes' tactics.
Moyes' NET spend is about £4m per season. Yes he has done an excellent job there, but he has been given £90m to spend by Kenwright (ok, off transfer sales), but still £90m. That is a lot of money in my book. His 5 biggest signings (Fellaini yet to be decided): Yakubu FAILURE, Bily FAILURE, Johnson FAILURE, Beattie FAILURE, Heitinga FAILURE. Why give Moyes money when he has a proven record of wasting it? Perhaps Moyes puts more effort into his signings when he has less money to spend to make sure he spends wisely? When he does have the money he wastes it. It wasn't even Moyes that generated the money, Kenwright made the deals to sell Rooney & Lescott, both players forced the club to sell and Kenwright got £50m for them, nothing to do with Moyes. What money comes into the club from sales has nothing to do with Moyes.
Moyes' tactics and mentality is teamwork, hardwork, backs to the wall, all-for-one, etc, etc. This is ok for teams scrapping in the bottom half of the table, but sometimes you actually need to go out and attack the opposition when they get ten men behind the ball and play on the counter attack. Moyes seems to have no ability to change a game, to set up differently, no plan B. Moyes is a good manager, but will never be a great manager. Look at Mourinho, if things aren't right, he will change straight away, even if its only 20mins into a game. Moyes waits until it goes wrong then it's too late. Unfortunately Moyes has reached his managerial level, he will never manage a Champions League side (successfully), he doesn't have the tactical ability. The current lack of goals is nothing to do with luck and just putting the ball in the net. It's changing what isn't working to make it work to put the ball in the net. If you're waiting for luck, you will be waiting a long time. The last two performances (and goals) have improved because Moyes was forced to change. If Cahill had been available, do you really think Moyes would have changed to 4-4-2 against Spurs? Please don't delude yourself.
Moyes has done a great job in his 9 years and I'm very grateful to him for it. But don't put him on a peddlestool. He has reached his level both managerially and at the club and we need a better manager to take us to the next level. However, this is also only likely with investment which is unlikely. Therefore, we are better sticking with Moyes until either investment, or a new young quality manager can take over. In other words, we're stuck with mediocrity.
37 Posted 09/01/2011 at 17:43:47
Denis (#35) thats one question the apologists never want to answer.
Afterall, this is supposed to be the best squad ever, capable of challenging the top 4, and that comes from the man himself.
38 Posted 09/01/2011 at 17:36:15
Yeah its also funny how the moyes haters have stopped shouting for Roberto Di Matteo as our new manager because his team have had a few bad results.
39 Posted 09/01/2011 at 19:02:36
And therefore we started the season with a great squad.
So why are we 3 points away from 19th place - anything to do with the negative defensive systems he was playing?
40 Posted 09/01/2011 at 19:34:16
Ian @24-dear oh dear-cost the club money!!
Roman-last season those that go to the game were moaning we were taking too many passes and trying to walk the ball in to the net and even referreing to us as "Arsenal lite" Also, IMHO Moyes should be in Jail for robbery-can anyone outside of Eastlands think that the price for Lescott was right??
My take on it all is that we are good at the backs to wall stuff and at times can play really effective attractive football, but where we fall down is in the breaking down of teams who do exactly what we did at Citeh. plan "B" is the oft used phrase and i believe we need to demonstrate that we have one
Really enjoyed the article and the subsequent debate thanks Nick.
41 Posted 09/01/2011 at 18:49:55
'Why give Moyes money when he has a proven record of wasting it?' - Fuck off mate, by your reckoning not a single manager in the world should have money to spend in case they waste it. Wenger signed Senderos, Ferguson signed Veron and Mourinho signed Shevchenko. Moyes'victories in the transfer market far outweigh his failures in my eyes which is why when we have money he gets to spend it.
42 Posted 09/01/2011 at 20:45:20
OK his record hasn't been good this season, however if you look throughout the Premiership it's been a pretty funny season. Lots of top sides, eg Villa, the Shite, even Chelski struggling for results. Over the last few seasons his records been pretty good considering the lack of resources, only sides with plenty more to spend finishing above us. OK not everything's perfect, just think in the long run we could do a lot worse.
43 Posted 09/01/2011 at 21:11:37
You'd have to be seriously deluded if you didn't agree that the arrival of Moyes and most of the seasons that followed, he not only steadied the ship, but got us moving forward. Like many of the years on Toffeeweb, I've been more of a fan of his than those detractors (even if many of the flaws thet pointed out had some validity).
This season, however, has shown up some dreadful tactical deficiencies, lack of ambition, a loss of team spirit, inconsistency in selection, poor man-management and media relations, and most importantly a chance for us to take advantage of what has been a a season of opportunity for our 'best squad in years' to challenge again for the top 4 (like Spurs are doing).
I think we've blown it big style this season, and Moyes and the players need to hold up their hands here. I'm hopeful our mini-revival (on the back of a much needed change to 4-4-2) will steer us out of a relegation battle, but we are still not out of the woods by any stretch. However, the way the team has failed to make a run at the Top 4 given the more even playing field in the EPL must never be forgotten.
Sure expectations are raised - they bloody well should be given our squad and the money Moyes earns every week. It says much that the Red Shite are potentially just higher than us in the league (games in hand etc.), yet they are in 'offficial' crisis, sacking one manager and bringing in a blast from the past. This IMWT thing is getting a bit feeble now, as is the 'wait till next season' rubbish. It's about time you recognised a crisis of some sorts, and at least accept that change is needed. Moyes has started to do so, and if he can get the season back on track, then I won't be as depressed as I was after the West Ham game - but come Easter if we are still looking over our shoulders - then I would suggest that is not good enough.
The Chelsea cup tie and the Derby are going to be the real test of whether we have found a new spirit and way of playing and we are not seeing a Man City false dawn. I can eat as much humble pie as anyone, and our team heading up the table regardless of the circumstances will make me as happy as any Evertonian - but let's see a bit more evidence before we resort to 'give him more time' platitudes - you're a better thinker and fan than that, Nick, based on previous posts, so don't go all Doddy just yet! COYBs
44 Posted 09/01/2011 at 21:46:48
At the halfway point, those expectations have yet to be even potentially realised, but I firmly believe we are on the cusp of something, with a squad that IS THE BEST for almost a quarter of a century.
True, some of his selections are puzzling to say the least and he clearly has his favourites. But name me a manager who doesn't. They all make mistakes too.
Pound-for-pound, I challenge anyone to name a manager who could have done better than David Moyes at our club since he's been here.
I believe there isn't one and I'm very proud to have him as our manager.
Ask supporters of virtually every other club who they admire. Moyes would top the table by a mile. Why? Because he's doing a bloody good job.
My only hope is that for once, we go for it an Anfield next Sunday.
Two strikers, an adventurous approach and a belief that we are the better team (which we are) and have nothing to fear from those ragbag journeymen and mercenaries.
Come on Moysie.
PS: try reading Rod Liddle's Sunday Times column (always a good read for the enlightened footie fan). Without mentioning Everton, it puts a lot of the perpetual Toffeeweb 'Moyes out' movement into a much more sensible perspective. More positivity chaps...
45 Posted 09/01/2011 at 22:16:14
46 Posted 09/01/2011 at 22:47:34
Out of curiosity did you ever live in Sale
47 Posted 09/01/2011 at 23:20:34
Elsewhere some of you lot are having a laugh. Talking about Moyes doing well earlier in his Everton career? WTF??? You are idiots!!! He only won Manager of the Season the one before last!!! Last year, against much richer clubs, we did okay. The way you lot talk it's as if he hadn't done anything for a while. It's only 20 months since we went to Wembley.
We spent less than Stoke in the Summer so be thankful Davey hasn't quit!
Yeah, yeah, there would be lots of better replacements lining up to take the job. Really? Get a reality check.
48 Posted 10/01/2011 at 00:11:43
I spray-painted the whole town with Everton slogans for years.
You were a friend of my younger brother, who had the misfortune to support Leeds - still the most loathesome team in the country.
Don't remember you being an Evertonian. Perhaps you weren't as committed back then (it was, after all, some 37 years ago).
Good to see you on here - especially as one who shares my optimistic views on things.
49 Posted 09/01/2011 at 23:51:53
I do find it rather comical that the same people who advise others to "get real", often do so from an alternative dimension where they seem to think that Moyes is destined to manage at Manchester United or Barcelona, & where no other manager would want to be well-paid for managing an established Premier team with a decent squad of players - no wonder some people are already so accustomed to mediocrity they seem to think it's the new success!
50 Posted 10/01/2011 at 02:54:51
However, I feel he's reached a point where his lack of tactical acumen is outweighing his transfer market shrewdness. The latter can only take you so far, which for us is being the "best-of-the-rest." But it's not investment that we need to kick on, it's a manager who can get the best out of this team Moyes has assembled week-in, week-out.
Sadly, I'm less and less convinced that Moyes is the man for that job. Which is weird because you'd think that the person who put the team together would actually know what to do with it!
I really can't understand how some fans can sit there and watch us beat moneybag teams like Spurs and City, take points off the Top 3, and still think that it's investment the team needs when they've consistently proved the opposite. This team has what it takes NOW. If only our manager could get them playing to their full potential each week, then the investment we all crave *would* come, we could do up the Old Lady and we could buy the Messi's of this world. Let's put the horse before the cart.
Do I want Moyes out? At this stage, no. But if he doesn't sort it out by this season, I'm willing to take a gamble on a new manager with some attacking nous. Yes, we might destabilize again but for the chance to win some silverware, you have to be willing to face the prospect of relegation battles.
If we persist with Moyes and his survival-at-all-costs ethos, we'll have stability but we'll always be stuck-in-the-middle, also-rans. Now how does that fit in with 'Nil Satis Nisi Optimum'???
51 Posted 10/01/2011 at 04:39:19
Moyes wanted £30mil for Lescott. He got £22mil (your price). Can you honestly say that if you were managing a team, you would want a player in your squad after he had put in a written transfer request?
I didn't say that this fan site isn't for you, I said if you can't take the negativity towards Moyes (which in our eyes is positivity towards the team), then it might not be the site for you. Every single one of Moyes's defenders seem to read what they like into the sensible posts that the realists put forward.
I would just love - LOVE - to read a Moyes defender make an argument without pointing out the lack of funds he's had! It is the only point any of you seem to bring up.
Team selections, tactics, substitutions, man management - FAIL.
Identifying talent with limited budget - PASS.
Sounds like he'd be a great assistant.
52 Posted 10/01/2011 at 09:00:40
53 Posted 10/01/2011 at 09:30:50
I think it's more a case of them sinking down to our level than us rising to theirs.
54 Posted 10/01/2011 at 09:36:29
55 Posted 10/01/2011 at 10:11:24
Our trouble this year has been the lack of goals. No hoofball, just a lack of goals.
And to the Moyes bashers, don't let facts get in the way of a good bashing, eh?
56 Posted 10/01/2011 at 11:29:32
And whoever said Moyes made us millions of pounds with his "achievements", that is incorrect. The only type of English teams that Uefa/Europa is beneficial to is the REALLY low teams, with wage bills around the level of, say, Ipswich '01. For Everton to have to pay their players in the range of £25k-£65k to play mid-week in front of 25,000 people is detrimental to the club.
The only way Europa League offers more money is if you win it, your club is picked to host the final (fat fucking chance), or you improve on it, and qualify for the Champions League.
57 Posted 10/01/2011 at 13:05:17
1) In hindsight anyone can say "we should've let Lescott go earlier". But since no-one knew just how much the saga was going to effect us. Then the decision to keep hold was understandable. City wanted him and we wanted as much money as we could get. Had we let him go earlier we may only have got £18M. The £4-5M difference is huge for paupers like us.
2) It sends out a mesage to the rest of the players, that they can't easily sulk their way out of contracts. If they want to sulk, then they will have to face the wrath of Moyes and us fans. Moyes made Lescott force the move and made it an uncomfortable experience.
Read the fucking stats in the OP. We are a far more sucessful team under Moyes. We have built a decent squad with fuck all.
The fact we've not been relegated is an achievement considering the state of Smith's Everton in 2002 and the financial fuck-ups by Kenwright. The fact we have played in Europe 4 times and have had 4th, 5th (twice), 6th, place finishes is a minor miracle.
The only factor stopping us for pushing on is money. We need more of the same quality of players. Unfortunately for us even City and United struggle to play amazingly every week ? even with massive budgets. That's where a strong squad comes in. We can match anyone when our best players are fit and in form. The problem is very few players in world football are fit and in top class form for an entire season. And we don't have any money to strengthen. We sell a key player to reinforce other positions. No-one ever won a title in those circumstances.
How many trophies have Arsenal won since they stopped spending big?
Yes, our football has been toothless this year. Yes, Moyes is slow to react sometimes. Yes, we've been too cautious over the last few years. However, this is because we are transitioning from a mid-table, "out fight the opposition" type club to an aspiring, Europe chasing, footballing side. We just haven't got the right strikers in place yet (although Saha/Beckford look promising). If only we had a Tevez/Rooney or Drogba to put the ball away.
58 Posted 10/01/2011 at 13:38:45
So yes money is an issue. Moyes has players that are great when the whole team fires, unfortunately none of them....well, possibly Fellaini... are consistent enough to get us to the standard we know they can play, every game.
59 Posted 10/01/2011 at 14:30:39
That doesn't make me ungrateful for the fantastic job he's done up in the previous years, and it doesn't stop me worrying that if and when he goes we won't collapse spectacularly. But it does make me write posts like this, that don't really go anywhere. Sorry.
60 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:34:30
What a ridiculous statement.
Our best players have been fit for most of the season. As for form? That comes down to motivation, tactics and playing players regularly and in the correct position.
I could beat any F1 driver if his tyres were flat.
61 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:56:31
He is virtually in a win/win position and if ever he became available he would be any chairmans dream manager...no transfer budget demands and keeping the team in the premier division !!
Dont forget he held out for a big contract and now he totally toes the party line.
He always says we have no money and only loan deals are probable.
62 Posted 10/01/2011 at 20:25:56
Most fans seem to accept that Moyes is slow to make changes in games when things are clearly not working.
Most fans think he is not great at big-money signings.
Most fans think he is consistently defensively minded.
Most fans think he quite often plays players out of position.
Yet, so many still back him to the hilt (???). For me, all of his strengths are outweighed by the heinous crimes I have listed. How you can rationalise them away is beyond me. Cheers
63 Posted 10/01/2011 at 21:07:14
As I stated above, I don't want him to go, I just wish he wouldn't be so stubborn. He was picking the wrong team all season up until the Spurs game, and really, it wasn't acceptable. And any manager, history or no history, would have been sacked if the club hadn't stupidly given him the biggest contract at the club.
Someone mentioned that every manager has his favourites. Yes, at most clubs and with most managers, those favourites are probably the best players in the squad. Moyes's favourites are shit (Hibbo, Osman) or playing really badly (Arteta, Pienaar, Jags).
I nearly spewed, but then realised I wasn't surprised to see Osman lead the team out against Scunthorpe.
64 Posted 10/01/2011 at 22:41:35
65 Posted 10/01/2011 at 22:45:33
Tony, I laughed at that as well. Seems a really strange logic, don't want him to go but he is shit.
66 Posted 11/01/2011 at 17:49:20
67 Posted 11/01/2011 at 21:12:08
One of the key points with this is that clubs who win things will replace their cash failures with others, because they can afford to do so. City have replaced Lescott, United replaced Forlan. They also have a second choice top replacement in every position, which is why again they can sustain a challenge over a full season.
Suspend belief for a second and think about how good we would be with Lescott and Rooney in the team. We're lower down the food chain and so get preyed on when our players become attractive to higher carnivores.
I accept Its not all about money though, in terms of being a good team to watch and being the best we can be.
68 Posted 11/01/2011 at 21:26:17
When you say Moyes should be replaced for us to be 'successful again', do you mean winning trophies on a reasonably regular basis? If this is your criteria then there are no examples anywhere where managers can do this in the Premier League without wads of cash coming as part of the deal. Even Wenger stopped winning things when he reduced his spending.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't do our utmost but I'm not sure where else the grass is greener or who would give us a better chance of breaking the Premier League monopoly.
69 Posted 12/01/2011 at 10:33:26
Moyes has the benefit of continued confidence from the Board & longevity usually only acheived through bringing silverware to the club. In his 9 years as manager he has greatly improved the squad with minimal net expenditure ? a process that should continue as far as the limits of the club's salary budget allow. I do believe further progress is possible.
However, I don't believe Moyes is a man capable of delivering success, even if he had much greater financial backing. That's why I believe he will need to be replaced in order for the club to win any trophies at all, let alone with any degree of regularity.
70 Posted 12/01/2011 at 18:34:52
I agree, it's always mystified me how advocates of Moyes concede his fatal flaws yet offer undying support. Absolute mystery.
71 Posted 12/01/2011 at 21:02:10
Moyes bought him for around £5M, he played one game, then amid rumours that 'he can't head the ball' he was sold for an undisclosed figure.
He then goes on to play the next five years with Fiorentina!!!
I'll be honest, of all the 'wonder what went on there' Everton stories, this is the one I'd love to know the details of.
72 Posted 13/01/2011 at 14:20:16
What I'm saying is, I like Moyes, he's done a good job so far, but this year has performed like a really, really shit manager. If he could turn that around, I'd be happy for him to keep his job ? basic underlying theme being, it's not personal...
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