The past has gone...

I live in California where the LA Lakers and the LA Clippers share the Staples Center and I have been to both Clippers games and Laker games. The conclusion is that, even when I watch the Cippers at Staples Center, you know that this is the Lakers Stadium because of the Decor.

They try and change the decor when the Clippers play somewhat, but if you are not looking at the players you would not know this was their Stadium also.

I get the feeling that that would happen to EFC also with a shared Stadium... just a point I thought might be relevant to the shared stadium idea.

The current encumbents have had over a decade to develop the business during the biggest input of income in its history and failed abysmally; not one innovation during that time and cringeworthy examples of mismanagement and simply throwing money away on DK and failing to capitalise on Liverpool's Capital of Culture year.

A useless chancer and yes men below him in control of the club have done for it, no amount of excuses can change that.

I am in my mid-twenties and have grown up knowing Everton as a poor team the majority of my life. I hate the fact that if you simply state that it is impossible to compete now without vast sums of cash (and there are still only the same amount of trophies that can be won!), you are castigated as a non-Evertonian. I would love Everton to win a trophy in my lifetime but I can't see it happening because of the way football has become.

I can only hope that at some point in the future, rules are brought in to ensure a fair playing field for everyone (as is supposed to be the case with Mr Platini's law, however much clubs seem to be ignoring it!) which gives clubs who have a good scouting system and a good manager the possibility to compete. Rant over.

Even the smallest club's have more modern facilities, and most can consistently outspend us. Too many horrendous decisions to mention!

Thank god for Mr Moyes's "feeding of the 5000" type miracles, without that this club would've sunk long ago.

Most people can see that what the club's board lack is a strategy for increasing revenue and growing the business. They seem aimless and do not seem to look beyond this season.

Bill Kenwright comes from a business in which he has a staple few products ? Blood Brother etc ? and then hires theatres in which to run his products. His business is transient in nature, lacking a firm base in which it operates (and yes, I am aware that he owns a theatre in London, but his main business is touring productions). The theatres concentrate on the operating base and he puts the product into the base.

Everton is not a transient business and needs to focus on its operating base in order to increase revenue. BK has no clue how to go about this ? aside from moving the club to Kirkby (transient think).

A board with vision would have several strategies to invest in the base from which they operate and the only place in which they can increase revenue on a yearly basis. This is not hard to do despite what some think and multi millions are not needed.

Strategy is not expensive to develop but implementing it does cost. There are more strategic ideas on an average day on ToffeeWeb than come out of the EFC boardroom in a year.

Despite what the board say, there is evidence that there is enough room on the Goodison footprint to develop a ground holding 55,000 (but a board with vision would be looking at 60,000+). But there won't be once the Park End is given over to whatever the hell they are building there. Again the board are thinking of the short term rather than having a vision for growing the club.

We are falling further and further behind in the pecking order in terms of match day capacity. Both Manchester clubs, Arsenal, Sunderland, Newcastle, Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea, Villa and soon West Ham and Wolves will have bigger crowds and much more revenue than EFC. The London clubs and Man Utd can charge almost twice what we charge so the effect is maximised even more.

Regarding ground share; take the Milan clubs as an example. During the 80s and 90s, Milan were winning everything and Inter were seen as the smaller club in terms of success and revenue. This was the general perception as exampled by people calling the ground San Siro when that is the name used when Milan play there with the name Guiseppe Meaza used when Inter play there.

The situation now is that Inter have caught up and surpassed Milan on the pitch and probably in revenue terms as well. This is the option that is most attractive in terms of the financial situation as a joint project by EFC and LFC would be able to finance the project based on future income.

Any way, as we all know, the board is the problem, not the answer. Like was said of the men of the first world war ? 'We had Lions led by Donkeys'

Ramble over and looking forward to seeing who starts up front tomorrow...

I do have the impression now that something will have to give this summer; our tangible assets are finite and I would not blame Davey if he walked as I think he will have to sell to buy again this coming window. One way or another, something is going to crack this summer.

I would much prefer to stay at Goodison and I do think that we could easily do so and have a ground that holds 55,000+. We are always told that the footprint isn't big enough but other clubs would be looking at purchasing land around the site (the council have said that the land where the car site is would be available and they offered to resite the school) and would also be looking at getting permission for rerouting roads and acquiring the land that's freed up.

We are crying out for a vision that sets out where the club will be in 10, 20 or 30 years. This mob can't explain where we will be next Season!!!

It would be far better to tackle the problem of developing non-matchday revenue which can make a contribution for 365 days a year rather than a solution that will generate income for 90 mins on approximately 23 occasions a year.

"Overall, what I am trying to say is that we need to wise up as fans and let go of ridiculous delusions of grandeur based on past glories. Negative attitudes based on unrealistic expectations affect the atmosphere at the ground, our results, the attitude of the board, the manager, and the media.

Let's be grateful we support a club in the top league, which has some of the best players in the world right now. With sustainable fiscal management we might still be watching Everton in the top league in the world in 20 years time. Cups are nice but the fact we can compete at all is an achievement considering the lack of revenue we generate."

ALL our players are assets belonging to EFC and none should be allowed to go free unless they had no real monetary value ? this is an example of classic mismanagement. This is only one example, as I also believe that our pre-season 'Jollies' in the USA and Oz are a total waste of money and result in poor starts to every season with no apparent gains.

We are now in a position of weakness as every club is alert to our problems and can make derisive bids for other assets (players) to further weaken our squad. Football today is losing its competitive edge in England and only the rich clubs can compete for trophies that they want to win with realistic chances of success.

I do not agree with Kunai (#35) that we should waste further money on long haul pre-season jaunts... we have our problems coping with the current Premier League fixtures without piling up more.

The simple reality is we don't have a large enough support. Manchester City and Sunderland average 40,000 or more attendances. We have only packed GP once and that was for the derby. Our fans are very quiet at the moment, not enough fans are even bothering to do their job which is to support the team at games.

I blame Moyes for our financial problems, not BK; it was him that decided to keep Arteta, Pienaar,Yakubu and Jags. I suggested on Everton forums that Rodwell was never actually going to be that good and we should try and get a good deal for him while we can. Fans told me I was mad but we simply needed to sell our better players to fund other signings. I'm not talking about vital players here but players that could have easily been replaced even with no new faces being brought in.

Some fans are just looking for a miracle and continue to believe we can just find a arab billionaire just like that. I'd love that as well but we have to be realistic about our situation.

Christine Foster, your words are unkind and simply reflect some of the angry mob on here who want to do something about it but have no idea what, or how, or with whom.

The point about 'well run' might not be the smartest thing to say, but what he is pointing out is that finances of many Premier League clubs show losses; trying to compete costs money and when you are skint it's hard to find... therefore hard to do.

Yes, there is an answer, and that is for Bill or whoever owns the shares to sell; however, until that happens, your angry and driven comments do nothing to change the situation.

So if Tony is out of the way, does that mean you and all the other angry young (or old) 'just do it' generation are doing something to move this club forward... this is not exactly Eygpt and if you think Bill and his mates will leave because of a few ranters on the sidelines then I suggest that you stop smoking whatever it is you are!

Tony whatever you are on, give it a good go, and get off it lad.

It seems to me that he may not have meant it but he seems to be saying that we should not have hopes that our club can rise from the low state we find ourselves in and we shouldn't really have any expectations that the situation will improve. I do not see this happening while Kenwright and his associates are in control of this club.

As for a joint stadium, on balance, I would accept it... but it's not likely to happen. We haven't got as pot to piss in and, as CP has already stated, it would be like Arkwright's Emporium next door to Harrod's. They've said that they will do up Anfield anyway, so there's no point in a debate along that line.

I was reading earlier on, a letter from the Everton For Change group on NSNO (I think). It was a good letter and was very respectful to the club and pointed out that the group would wish to work positively with the Club to try to bring about an upturn in the Club's fortunes. The response from the club says it all to me (I'm paraphrasing but it was along the lines of "Dear riff raff, thank you for taking the time to write to us but we already have many means of communicating with our wonderful fans... and we don't need any more, thank you very much!" ? Just about shows me, how interested they are top listen to the genuine concerns of many Evertonians.

John Sreet, I've only been going from the sixties (lucky man that I am) but, since then, we've been going downhill, apart from that wonderful but brief few years in the mid-eighties. Where was the dream or the vision and the ambition to take our club forward?

And the situation is worse now, as the gap between the clubs with ambition and money leaves us further behind. Some contributers appear to be saying that it's not so bad if we just accept that we are a smalltime club. All I can see is that, if we carry on like this, fans will drift away... and I'm certainly thinking of it, because they see what is happening and that nothing is getting done by this board to arrest the decline.

Sadly, it seems you're not alone!

I can see it now in years to come, an academic paper on this subject ? "Terminal decline: mediocrity and Everton Football Club at the turn of the century and beyond" ... unless they sell up and let someone with some fresh ideas have a go.

BK needs to sell, it's the only way and it will take more than a millionaire like Randy Lerner... now we see Liverpool ousted as one of the big 4... poor management over 20 years, no it's big bucks.

Please do me a favour don't treat us all like prize idiots.

If you have a credible plan... let's hear it; if not, you're just pissing in the wind.

Or do you feel that there's an oil sheikh out there that BK is refusing to sell to?

1. Supporters who want success at any cost... even if that cost is selling your club to some rich anonymous organisation who will then populate your team with mercenary players.

2. Supporters who would rather scrap it out at the bottom/mid-table, have the odd cup run now and again, but remain conventionally owned with players who WANT to play for you.

Personally I can't change the direction that football has taken over the years so I'd rather stay struggling than sell out.

To put it in perspective, most of my best moments as a supporter have come when we struggled: Royle's first derby; every time Dunc got sent off for knacking someone; Kanchelskis destroying a defense; relegation escapes on the last day... that's what football is about ? excitement!

Johnny foreigner buying the club as a plaything and sticking some Torres type in the side for £50 mil does nothing for me.

It takes a lot to admit to being that kind of supporter because it makes you sound like you have no ambition ? it's not though... it's just a different way of thinking.

I reckon this is why views are always so polarized about this kind of thing.

Is BK a good director? ? Probably not. Would I rather he was our director rather than some Shiekh? ? Every time.

If he doesn't listen to that, the club goes to the wall and he gets hit as his shares become worthless. Or you could bury your head in the sand and say it's not your problem or announce you will do fuck all about it. Compliance with the status quo and you become part of the problem, not the solution.

So what are you going to do about it, then, John?

You support your team through thick and through thin; I hate Man City but boy do I admire those fans who went with them down to Division One. Maybe you are a designer fan.... only the best is good enough for you; well, life ain't like ? that neither is football.

I love watching Everton play, I have always loved Everton, through the crap times and through the brilliant times.... So don't ask what I will do ? I will support my team.

Bill Kenwright isn't here forever, he will eventually sell; David Moyes will eventually go... I hope when that happens, your wishes are fulfilled by a rich sheik.

For me, there's always been the game, I have never booed a man wearing an Everton shirt, and ? no matter what pricks might be currently in charge ? I will support my team.

THAT'S WHAT I WILL DO, GAVIN!!!!!!!!!! Head in the sand... really? Be careful cos the water table isn't that deep and you could drown!

You asked what I'd do and I told you; seemed to touch a nerve but here's the rub, John, I've worked all over the country and offshore and still kept a season ticket, paying fucking thousands to see the club, paying a small fucking fortune to it... so when you have the gall to ask what I'd do, then take the knock, fucking diddums.

My money, my choice on how to spend it... but don't come the big 'I am' when you spend what sounds like fuck all on it ? It's nobody's fault you live elsewhere, unless you were deported.

I've never asked for a sheik either ? just a solvent businessman or woman with more of a clue on how to turn coin than Kenshite and his cronies have.

Either way, I think football in general has become a much sadder place in the last 10 years.

We take a look around and see even clubs beneath the egregiously named "Big Four" aiming high and improving all the time. Tottenham, Sunderland and Aston Villa (who, admittedly, hit a lean spell this season, but that's part and parcel of competing) have all been investing and improving. You will argue that this is because they have people in charge who can afford to invest some of their money, but it's patently obvious that that is what we need. Why, almost every other club relies on that (and so did we in the great days), so the obvious solution is for the current lot to be really active in seeking a buyer and be off!

We don't need to look for a Sheikh or a Russian plutocrat, there are other sorts of people with the means and the business skills to take over a football club, as has been seen elsewhere. That's what the people in charge have to do, rather than banging on about how well run Everton FC are considering its dire circumstances.

Ground-sharing is a non-starter, even without going into its pros and cons. I'm against it, but people are of course entitled to have different views. It is a common thing in Italy ? and only there ? but even there, some clubs are looking at the possibility of building their own grounds.

A club's ground is part of its heritage, helps create support. Football may well be a business but it is not a business like any other. The supporters are much more than mere consumers. A club's ground is much more than the place where the team plays every fortnight.

We had a short period when we were called the "Mersey Millionaires" and looked as though we would go on from the great side we had... but we didn't and I put that down to our choice of manager at the time. (That's only an opinion but that's what the game's about.)

I don't think that fans are criticising Kenwright for having little money. We're criticising him for his history of showing his absolute reluctance to lose the reins of power... at the expense of our club.

Do you remember the King's Dock episode? Or the Fortress Sports Fund episode? I criticise Kenwright for saying "there are no Fairy Godmothers out there". Not long after he said that, several Premier League clubs were bought. I know he's a theatre buff but instead of a fairy godmother, I think we've got Widow Twankey.

Well said, David (#56). I would have put up with a ground share if that was the only realistic option but it's dead and gone. I couldn't agree more about the importance of our own ground and what it means. Let's hope someone will come in who'll begin rebuilding Goodison and start to take this club forward again.

Now if the club listened to the Everton For Change group and said "Let's talk and see if there is anything feasible your ideas", I'd have some respect for the board. Instead, they got a response which, in effect, told them that "we're not interested." That would be fine if the club were in a position of financial strength but I believe that this isn't the case.

We have a Billionaire who is associated with the club but I'm not sure in what capacity. We have Robert Earl as a director who is evidently reasonably wealthy. Neither of these gents seem eager to invest in the club, as Kenwright is evidently looking for a buyer. Yet we have many Evertonians, who are not looking for a financial return, willing to invest in the club and getting fecked off.

It might not be practical, what many of us wish to do and I've seen posts asking: What is the Business Plan? Well, the Plan, whether it is a "Business" one or not, is to see if many of us contributing to get this club moving forward, both with the ground and with finances for players, is achievable.

Otherwise, if we don't get someone with money and the will to begin the rebuilding, my fear is the club will just sit in the doldrums, gradually losing support as fans become disillusioned....

Blimey! Saturday night and I'm doom and gloom ? sorry for that. There is a greatness with all that Everton is... it's just so feckin' frustrating to see what's happening.

I would like to thank Ray Said (#18), for taking my article in the spirit it was meant to be taken: a primer for challenging the imperfect conclusions I personally came to after some reading around the subject.

On that note, I further extend my parting sentiment from the above article, i.e., I may be wrong, and if you think there are ways that Everton can really challenge financially, then tell us your ideas. Criticising is vacuous without alternative solutions. A complete moron can say "you're shit, that's shit... blah blah, where's me fuckin' medication gone?!!" Not particularly helpful to anyone.

Ultimately, we all want success for Everton. Don't forget that.

I think though, that you let yourself down as asker of pertinent questions when, in your last paragraph, you ask "If you think there are ways that Everton can really challenge financially, then tell us your ideas. Criticising is vacuous without alternative solutions..."

I've seen Tony I'Anson come up with a good idea; I've seen Tom Hughes come up with a good idea... and there have been many more. Unfortunately, the club appear to not wish to engage. I refer you to the post that's just been written called "Evertonians for Change ? a response from the club" letter. I think that may show you that there isn't a lack of ideas... just a lack of a hearing aid within the club.

'Economical with the truth' to say the least.

Really no point in continuing this conversation...

Let's look at the Lower Gwladys Street End. When you sit three quarters up the stand, match viewing is hampered by a low ceiling and posts in the way. This is a similar problem that exsists right along the Paddock and Lower Bullens. The Upper Gwladys, Bullens and Main Stand are hampered by posts all the way round. So, with this in mind, it has a major effect on attendance. Who in their right mind would pay Premier League ticket prices when viewing is limited?

The board have worked hard to get council help and approval on plans, only to be kicked in the teeth. The council are and have failed to provide adequate support for one of the city's major icons.

People need to remember Everton is a business and like all they need to run on profit and loss margins. Ok we have a debt but it is nothing in comparison with other clubs within the league. Kenwright has run the club the way it's meant to be run and been honest throughout. During this period we have seen our record buy in the market beaten about four times.

I have faith that the club will get owners to take it forward. But until the day we get a new stadium, we will financially have our backs against the wall but our heads above water. It's not the board's fault, that lies at the doorstep of the leaders of the city council for not seeing an opportunity to get this once power house of English football the platform to compete with the best. Everton is a giant and I am confident we will be back there again.

You're going to turn round and say but Liverpool have planning permission, which is true. But everything has its price and Liverpool offered money that council couldn't refuse and look at the problems they had. Instead of being a little baby and numpty, if you don't agree with what I say then come up with a intelligent response.

But do you honestly think Paul Gregg was the answer, no the guy married into rich family and trust me you don't want these people running a company. They are like kids in a candy shop with no self control. I would love to some one else in charge.

I also don't close the door to the fact that Kenwright failing to come up with cash played a key role in the council turning the club down. I am adding to the fact that thier were other key roles one of which I have clearly stated.