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The past has gone...

By Tony Wilson :  11/02/2011 :  Comments (82) :
Having read some of the excellent links on this site regards the recent release of the accounts, I would like to garble together a few pointers...

1. We are not poorly managed financially. All clubs outside of the group above us in the revenue league table are on the bones of their arses as player wages have risen ahead of broadcasting revenue, which makes up the majority of most Premier League clubs' incomes.

2. We have, in fact, spent beyond our means for many years, like many clubs, so to suggest that the board are not interested in improving things on the pitch is nonsense. If they had spent much more, we would be much further up the proverbial creek.

3. We simply don't have the commercial opportunities of clubs like Livepool. It may be fair to say that more could be done to push the Everton brand worldwide, to raise commercial revenue, but it seems to me that an unfortunate truth is glaring us in the face. There is now an established commercial order, as in most markets. Everton are in the mileu outside of the "Tesco clubs" (my own shite analogy), and so we will have to fight it out at this level. Maybe we can challenge Villa, but Tottenham seem to have gotten away from us, sadly.

4. We need a new stadium. The reality is that we cannot afford one. We should push hard for a ground share with Liverpool. They have won the commercail race. This does not mean that we can't try to catch them on the field. Liverpool FC could be seen as a real opportunity for Everton here. A new stadium would mean more executive box revenue and so on, and could help us to move forward. We are certainly not the only club that is loaded with debt. Liverpool is not a top English city any more, unfortunately. One great football ground should be enough for 2 clubs.

Overall, what I am trying to say is that we need to wise up as fans and let go of ridiculous delusions of grandeur based on past glories. Negative attitudes based on unrealsistic expectations affect the atmosphere at the ground, our results, the attitude of the board, the manager, and the media.

Let's be grateful we support a club in the top league, which has some of the best players in the world right now. With sustainable fiscal management we might still be watching Everton in the top league in the world in 20 years time. Cups are nice but the fact we can compete at all is an achievement considering the lack of revenue we generate.

The idea that we can use marketing to get closer to Man Utd et al just seems unrealistic. The game is almost all about money now. Nil satis nisi optimum is about attitude, not necessarily trophies.

Perhaps I am wrong, though. If anyone thinks we can overtake Tottenham in the foreseeable future without a playboy owner (not for me) I am all ears, as I really can't stand them! But you must explain how we will do that.

Reader Comments

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David Hallwood
1   Posted 12/02/2011 at 01:17:03

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Good post Tony, I've thought for some years that the good ship EPL has been heading for the iceberg at full steam ahead and the recent finacial accounts not just of Everton confirms this, the only thing up for debate is will it be big bang or slow death of the game.
Derek Thomas
2   Posted 12/02/2011 at 01:05:32

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You could be right. Unpalatable as it seems to some, ground share might be the best of a bad bunch option.

The 'London factor' gives Spurs a distinct advantage. If they were in Birmingham, they would be Wolves, with whom they share a lot, a 'catchy name' and, apart from a brief flirtation with fame in the Cullis and Nicholson era and the odd Ossie/villa moment, what have they actually won compared to us? ? which is, I think covered in your title.

The past has gone, I think the troubled present and the potential poor future has, subconsiously, led to the recent rash of nostalgic articles on here. Now I like a stroll down memory lane but it can all too easily turn to the primrose path.

There sometimes seems to be an inertia the mind set, I fear it will have to get a lot worse, both for us and the rest of the EPL before change is forced upon people.

The OS trumps... we fear no one, I bet there are a few more besides us who are shit scared of The Offical Receiver.
Andy Peers
3   Posted 12/02/2011 at 03:33:05

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The ground share idea works financially but How do you colour the stadium?

I live in California where the LA Lakers and the LA Clippers share the Staples Center and I have been to both Clippers games and Laker games. The conclusion is that, even when I watch the Cippers at Staples Center, you know that this is the Lakers Stadium because of the Decor.

They try and change the decor when the Clippers play somewhat, but if you are not looking at the players you would not know this was their Stadium also.

I get the feeling that that would happen to EFC also with a shared Stadium... just a point I thought might be relevant to the shared stadium idea.

Christine Foster
4   Posted 12/02/2011 at 06:32:46

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Tony Wilson, your not related to Richard Dodd by any chance are you?

Because all you have done is lay down on the railway track and give up.

Your points 1 & 2 contradict themselves. Only a half wit would say that the club has been well run commercially for the last 20 years never mind the last 10, no investment by the board whatsoever. Not a penny.

Debt through the roof, living on a credit card. Poor commercial management, poor board decsions, sale of players WTF, why bother carrying on?

It's not a reality check we need, it's a well run club with an owner to put right the wrongs financially that have been made.

If you don't dare to change then give up and get out of the way. Oh sorry, you have...
Gavin Ramejkis
5   Posted 12/02/2011 at 09:09:19

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Tony, care to explain how every other EPL side outspent us if they are all in the same boat? Even Crawley Town outspent us, I turned off after the first two paragraphs.

The current encumbents have had over a decade to develop the business during the biggest input of income in its history and failed abysmally; not one innovation during that time and cringeworthy examples of mismanagement and simply throwing money away on DK and failing to capitalise on Liverpool's Capital of Culture year.

A useless chancer and yes men below him in control of the club have done for it, no amount of excuses can change that.

Tom Collie
6   Posted 12/02/2011 at 09:34:26

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In other words, Tony:-

Bill is great, leave him alone, and accept mediocrity.

Thankfully there's an increasing number of supporters who, after seeing through WK, are refusing to accept the situation.
Steve Kidd
7   Posted 12/02/2011 at 09:43:17

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I agree with a lot of what has been said, to be honest; however, I do disagree that Kenwright has not financially mismanaged the club over the years.

I am in my mid-twenties and have grown up knowing Everton as a poor team the majority of my life. I hate the fact that if you simply state that it is impossible to compete now without vast sums of cash (and there are still only the same amount of trophies that can be won!), you are castigated as a non-Evertonian. I would love Everton to win a trophy in my lifetime but I can't see it happening because of the way football has become.

I can only hope that at some point in the future, rules are brought in to ensure a fair playing field for everyone (as is supposed to be the case with Mr Platini's law, however much clubs seem to be ignoring it!) which gives clubs who have a good scouting system and a good manager the possibility to compete. Rant over.

Richard Dodd
8   Posted 12/02/2011 at 10:13:54

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I wont denigrate this piece by saying I agree with every word (though I do!) but far too many people on Toffeeweb can`t face the truth. They really do believe that they could do better if put in charge. God forbid!
Brian Lloyd
9   Posted 12/02/2011 at 10:22:56

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Tony, you highlight some stark realities of modern day football that we can't ignore. However, you seem to suggest that we forget our rich history. Should we should join the masses who believe that football only started in 1992 and accept that the future is beige?
Lee Gray
10   Posted 12/02/2011 at 10:55:38

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Tony, Brilliant... let's go all the way and change our motto: Any shit will do... Magic!!!
Steve Kidd
11   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:03:17

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He is not saying any shit will do ? he is simply being realistic. We do not have to forget our history and we can be proud of it but that is what it is ? history!
Phil Bellis
12   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:17:46

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Nil Satis Nisi Mediocritas

"We are all in the gutter..."
John Talbot
13   Posted 12/02/2011 at 10:56:08

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Tony has hit the nail on the head. It is all about money ? without investment, we cannot move forward as the club is running out of assets that they can sell off.

To get investment in or a sale of the club, the directors have to be willing. I am not sure they are... or they surely would have got it by now. They certainly don?t want to put their own money in.

The only way forward is a sale and I hope the recent rumours are true but it could be another smoke screen.

The ground share is an obvious solution: reduce cost, increase in capacity and corporate facilities. But even then, could we afford to join in?

Seats would have to be Yellow but does it matter if you fill it you ? cannot see them.

We are rightly proud of our history but I have to agree that times have changed and we are struggling to compete. The club have more or less balanced the books over the last few years through sales; brace yourself for the summer because, without investment, the transfer window will be painful.
Martin Mason
14   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:30:04

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Tony is a realist who has seen now the true situation at Everton. There are many unfortunately who haven't quite grasped it and believe that a new owner could wave a magic wand and make us great again. Only an owner willing to put lots of his own money in to the club could do it ? and lot's of it at that. I'd say that such a person doesn't exist for Everton.

All I will say is this, Everton chomped at the bit to get the EPL started, thinking it would make them rich. How ironic that it may be what sinks them in the end. Was it really worth it?
Tony I'Anson
15   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:28:23

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I get quite annoyed in business when people say you can't compete with the big boys. It's the biggest myth on the planet. Was an unknown little company called Google too scared of Microsoft ten years ago?

Trust us, we are still working away on our project.
Tom Hughes
16   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:16:41

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The "reality" is that, when the Prem League was being formulated, we were sitting at the top table calling some of the shots. Now we're firmy stuck under the table, living off the scraps.... how that equates to 20yrs of good management is beyond me!

Even the smallest club's have more modern facilities, and most can consistently outspend us. Too many horrendous decisions to mention!

Thank god for Mr Moyes's "feeding of the 5000" type miracles, without that this club would've sunk long ago.

John Talbot
17   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:38:50

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The reality is without the Sky money we would be turning over the same amount of money in real terms as we were in the late 80s. Similar amount of fans spending the same amount money.

Without it we are in the shit!!
Ray Said
18   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:05:25

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I just want to make a couple of points:

Most people can see that what the club's board lack is a strategy for increasing revenue and growing the business. They seem aimless and do not seem to look beyond this season.

Bill Kenwright comes from a business in which he has a staple few products ? Blood Brother etc ? and then hires theatres in which to run his products. His business is transient in nature, lacking a firm base in which it operates (and yes, I am aware that he owns a theatre in London, but his main business is touring productions). The theatres concentrate on the operating base and he puts the product into the base.

Everton is not a transient business and needs to focus on its operating base in order to increase revenue. BK has no clue how to go about this ? aside from moving the club to Kirkby (transient think).

A board with vision would have several strategies to invest in the base from which they operate and the only place in which they can increase revenue on a yearly basis. This is not hard to do despite what some think and multi millions are not needed.

Strategy is not expensive to develop but implementing it does cost. There are more strategic ideas on an average day on ToffeeWeb than come out of the EFC boardroom in a year.

Despite what the board say, there is evidence that there is enough room on the Goodison footprint to develop a ground holding 55,000 (but a board with vision would be looking at 60,000+). But there won't be once the Park End is given over to whatever the hell they are building there. Again the board are thinking of the short term rather than having a vision for growing the club.

We are falling further and further behind in the pecking order in terms of match day capacity. Both Manchester clubs, Arsenal, Sunderland, Newcastle, Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea, Villa and soon West Ham and Wolves will have bigger crowds and much more revenue than EFC. The London clubs and Man Utd can charge almost twice what we charge so the effect is maximised even more.

Regarding ground share; take the Milan clubs as an example. During the 80s and 90s, Milan were winning everything and Inter were seen as the smaller club in terms of success and revenue. This was the general perception as exampled by people calling the ground San Siro when that is the name used when Milan play there with the name Guiseppe Meaza used when Inter play there.

The situation now is that Inter have caught up and surpassed Milan on the pitch and probably in revenue terms as well. This is the option that is most attractive in terms of the financial situation as a joint project by EFC and LFC would be able to finance the project based on future income.

Any way, as we all know, the board is the problem, not the answer. Like was said of the men of the first world war ? 'We had Lions led by Donkeys'

Ramble over and looking forward to seeing who starts up front tomorrow...

Brian Waring
19   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:43:17

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How can Wolves spend £16m on a two-tier stand? And that is only Phase 1 of their stadium redevelopment? Could it be that they have a board with some business acumen?
Steve Kidd
20   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:45:10

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I never stated that Everton have been well managed under the regimes of Johnson and Kenwright although, looking back on my post, I did not make that clear. I am a huge critic of Kenwright, I do not like the way that he has missed out on so many financial opportunities and, as you say, if it wasn't for Moyes pulling some very large rabbits out a small hat, we would have sunk a long time ago.

I do have the impression now that something will have to give this summer; our tangible assets are finite and I would not blame Davey if he walked as I think he will have to sell to buy again this coming window. One way or another, something is going to crack this summer.

John Talbot
21   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:52:22

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Maybe a board with money!!
Ray Said
22   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:52:41

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The Park End could probably hold a three-tier stand holding 20,000 if we used all the footprint available. Yes, it would tower over the other stands and would make the ground seem lopsided but it would increase capacity and revenue.
John Talbot
23   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:56:04

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They would have to knock the Park End down and rebuild as is doesn't have the foundations for another level.

That would mean commitment to Goodison Park as well.
Malcolm Szuplewski
24   Posted 12/02/2011 at 12:02:11

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I thought Liverpool are going to redevelop Anfield. Does that mean we move back "home" with them?
Colin Fitzpatrick
25   Posted 12/02/2011 at 12:06:25

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John, you're wrong, it does. But putting another tier on the stand isn't the answer.
Chris Jones
26   Posted 12/02/2011 at 12:04:01

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I'm sorry but I have to agree with Christine (#4). How can you say we aren't poorly managed, yet then highlight how we have spent beyond our means and are straddled with debt?

I believe we can be the best again. I'll always hold that belief ? otherwise, what's the point in even having a debate about it? For all his faults, David Moyes has achieved what he has in spite of the lack of financial acumen and strategy.

King's Dock, NTL, Fortress Soprts Fund, Rooney sale, Kirkby, Lescott sale - Nil Satis Nisi Optimum? Kenwright doesn't understand the meaning of our motto and should go now.
Will Mitchell
27   Posted 12/02/2011 at 11:40:50

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I think this is a very sensible and coherent post. You've been accused of giving-up but I think your post is optimistic.

Everton have done very well over the last five years to remain competitive against clubs with far greater resources than ourselves.

We have pushed ourselves to the financial limit to bring in good players like Fellaini and Yakubu. And that shows that the board and the owner are progressive and are trying to make the club competitive.

Furthermore, we're a proper club with proper fans that fill every away day allocation, even when we're playing shit.

We've got a historic, unique stadium which, although in need of modernisation, should be viewed as an asset not a hindrance.

And we've got a great manager who, having built a good, competitive team with very little money, is arguably the best in our history.

Personally, and I think you allude to this yourself, I would be very uncomfortable if a playboy owner came in. It matters where the money comes from. It matters that Chelsea's and Man City's money is ill-gotten money. And it matters that, as a result of this money, the game has ceased to be a competitive sport in the olympic sense.

I think football in its current form is unsustainable. The books don't balance, the wages are hyper-inflated and bear no relation to the income of the clubs.
I think we're witnessing a great market failure and it's important that Everton remain realistic and continue to manage their resources conservatively, in order that we come out on the other side in a position of relative strength.

Ray Said
28   Posted 12/02/2011 at 12:11:11

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Colin, you are right that putting another tier isn't THE answer but there may not be one answer but a series of small steps that increase revenue and get us moving. I think it's the lack of any vision or momentum that is so frustrating to us all.

I would much prefer to stay at Goodison and I do think that we could easily do so and have a ground that holds 55,000+. We are always told that the footprint isn't big enough but other clubs would be looking at purchasing land around the site (the council have said that the land where the car site is would be available and they offered to resite the school) and would also be looking at getting permission for rerouting roads and acquiring the land that's freed up.

We are crying out for a vision that sets out where the club will be in 10, 20 or 30 years. This mob can't explain where we will be next Season!!!

Alan Clarke
29   Posted 12/02/2011 at 12:33:22

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Tony, what you've written is utter horse shit. You should be ashamed at your complete ignorance. You should also stop patronising your fellow Evertonians.

Your argument is completely flawed when you say we're a well run club. We are NOT a well run club. Our debt has increased to a point where it is not manageable. The club has spent money that it didn't have. How is that being well run?

This year we don't have the Kitbag, Chang and Bellefield money, so how the fuck can the club pay the likes of Arteta £75k a week? Every asset has been borrowed against so the only way we can survive now is by selling our only remaining assets ? the players ? for profit and bringing cheaper players in. This decreases the quality of the team and squad. This increases the chance of poorer results on the pitch, which means we finish lower in the league, which means less people want to buy the 'product' i.e. fewer people want to buy season tickets, fewer people buy merchandise and fewer businesses want to pay for hospitality. All round there will be less interest in the club. This leads to less money from sponsors and decreased TV revenue.

Can you see the downward spiral, Tony? I think most of us are willing to accept we're not going to be winning the league anytime soon and I don't think a rich oligarch is going to take us over. Don't start telling us we're a well run club because even a 10-year-old can tell you, we are not.
Brian Waring
30   Posted 12/02/2011 at 12:31:32

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Tony, I don't understand how you can say we have spent beyond our means. As is always getting pointed out on here, Moyes's net spend is buttons over the last 9 years ? if that is spending beyond our means, things are far more dire as I first thought.
Giles Larkman
31   Posted 12/02/2011 at 12:48:10

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A sensible post.

I do feel that many of the CEOs that have commented about their perceived negativity of this piece, should be sending their CVs to Goodison Park in Monday morning's post.
Colin Fitzpatrick
32   Posted 12/02/2011 at 12:52:31

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Ray (#28) ? I'm not disagreeing with what you say; yes, a series of measures could be the answer in preference to moving to a new facility, but many suggest that simply putting another tier on the park end will solve our problems alone ? it won't.

It would be far better to tackle the problem of developing non-matchday revenue which can make a contribution for 365 days a year rather than a solution that will generate income for 90 mins on approximately 23 occasions a year.

Colin Fitzpatrick
33   Posted 12/02/2011 at 13:06:12

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"Overall, what I am trying to say is that we need to wise up as fans and let go of ridiculous delusions of grandeur based on past glories. Negative attitudes based on unrealistic expectations affect the atmosphere at the ground, our results, the attitude of the board, the manager, and the media.

Let's be grateful we support a club in the top league, which has some of the best players in the world right now. With sustainable fiscal management we might still be watching Everton in the top league in the world in 20 years time. Cups are nice but the fact we can compete at all is an achievement considering the lack of revenue we generate."
Jesus wept; have they done that good a job on the fanbase?

As for the concept of "ground share" being a good idea, it's up there with people using the phrases "common business practice" or "the truth lies somewhere in the middle"...

The reality is no study has ever proved that ground share is a viable option, indeed the evidence of Everton and Liverpool having dramatically diverse target markets and business plans is there for all to see and leads one to accept that it would be detrimental to the future prosperity of Everton, the only club we're bothered about on this website. A simple analogy would be suggesting that it would be prudent for Arkwright's corner shop to move into a building shared with a Tesco Extra.

Around the country, demonstrated time after time, these businessmen claiming, what was it, "that they're not poorly managed financially" have failed time and time again. Time for a change, time for fan power to stop the tail wagging the dog. Not pointless demonstrations but by demanding representation on the boards and bringing these whoppers to account.

Tony, like everyone, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'll be at Bolton tomorrow and I'll guarantee I won't find anyone who agrees with anything you've just written, just like I can't find anyone who still believes a word the chairman, the Marcel Marceau members of our board, or just about anyone from the club, says these days ? and that's the real tragedy here. I'm also lost as to why you believe the fans should come up with a solution that will line the pockets of the people who have done nothing more than invest £22m plus in shares that will be sold at a handsome profit.

As for those, thankfully a very, very small minority, left with nothing more than to resort to derisory rhetoric on the fans' abilities to identify abysmal performance from spin, all I can do is point them in the direction of the consequences to NTL, KD, FSF and DK. No doubt these are individuals who thought and still think Tesco were providing Everton with a £52m subsidy... and that our last CEO resigned!!
Ray Said
34   Posted 12/02/2011 at 13:13:44

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Colin (32)
A good point and well made.
Kunal Desai
35   Posted 12/02/2011 at 13:11:02

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The commercial and marketing aspect of the club is pathetic. How about trying to sell and promote the club abroad. Why not arrange a pre-season in Qatar or Abu Dhabi were at least we might get noticed and gain a bit more coverage out there? A four-team tournament like the Emirates Cup but have it there.
Trevor Lynes
36   Posted 12/02/2011 at 13:39:07

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If we were prudently managed, as the article implies, then we should protect the assets better, eg, Gosling is a glaring example of poor management... his contract had been allowed to run down so he went for nothing. If any company board member allowed a situation where assets were squandered then he would be fired!!!

ALL our players are assets belonging to EFC and none should be allowed to go free unless they had no real monetary value ? this is an example of classic mismanagement. This is only one example, as I also believe that our pre-season 'Jollies' in the USA and Oz are a total waste of money and result in poor starts to every season with no apparent gains.

We are now in a position of weakness as every club is alert to our problems and can make derisive bids for other assets (players) to further weaken our squad. Football today is losing its competitive edge in England and only the rich clubs can compete for trophies that they want to win with realistic chances of success.

I do not agree with Kunai (#35) that we should waste further money on long haul pre-season jaunts... we have our problems coping with the current Premier League fixtures without piling up more.

Nelaj Behajiha
37   Posted 12/02/2011 at 13:59:49

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<--I'm sorry I am becoming sick of the endless BK articles and blaming people who can't defend themsleves. -->All this nonsense about spreading the club's brand abroad, success on the pitch is the only way to get this. We don't have a lot of money so therfore it's very hard to spread a brand. We can't even sell out 2,900 tickets for Chelsea when they are half-price.

The simple reality is we don't have a large enough support. Manchester City and Sunderland average 40,000 or more attendances. We have only packed GP once and that was for the derby. Our fans are very quiet at the moment, not enough fans are even bothering to do their job which is to support the team at games.

I blame Moyes for our financial problems, not BK; it was him that decided to keep Arteta, Pienaar,Yakubu and Jags. I suggested on Everton forums that Rodwell was never actually going to be that good and we should try and get a good deal for him while we can. Fans told me I was mad but we simply needed to sell our better players to fund other signings. I'm not talking about vital players here but players that could have easily been replaced even with no new faces being brought in.

Some fans are just looking for a miracle and continue to believe we can just find a arab billionaire just like that. I'd love that as well but we have to be realistic about our situation.

John Sreet
38   Posted 12/02/2011 at 15:01:57

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I watched Everton in the 50s, through the 60s and into the great 80s; it's 25 years since we won the league, and Tony is right ? we're an ordinary team with a small squad and no hope of competing with the money.

Christine Foster, your words are unkind and simply reflect some of the angry mob on here who want to do something about it but have no idea what, or how, or with whom.

The point about 'well run' might not be the smartest thing to say, but what he is pointing out is that finances of many Premier League clubs show losses; trying to compete costs money and when you are skint it's hard to find... therefore hard to do.

Yes, there is an answer, and that is for Bill or whoever owns the shares to sell; however, until that happens, your angry and driven comments do nothing to change the situation.

So if Tony is out of the way, does that mean you and all the other angry young (or old) 'just do it' generation are doing something to move this club forward... this is not exactly Eygpt and if you think Bill and his mates will leave because of a few ranters on the sidelines then I suggest that you stop smoking whatever it is you are!

Colin Potter
39   Posted 12/02/2011 at 15:03:14

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God help us all, when you have fans writing such utter shite as this.

Tony whatever you are on, give it a good go, and get off it lad.

Gavin Ramejkis
40   Posted 12/02/2011 at 15:51:51

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Apathy and acceptance will never create change, John (#37), the mere acceptance of the tripe and mismanagement at the club is exactly what has kept BK where he has been for over a decade; Where exactly has that put the club but in a downward spiral beyond his control?

As has been said on countless occasions by myself and many others, what is needed is business vision and leaders. It wouldn't even take one of the fabled billionaires his acolytes claim simply aren't out there, it desperately needs someone to realise that breaking the monoculture of reliance on matchday income alone is the future, as alluded to by Colin Fitzpatrick. Putting all your eggs in one business basket will eventually fail when that single route fails, ask any vineyard owner when they have a season of bad weather... now that used to be taught at O-Level Geography, never mind Business Studies of any kind.

Doddy (#8), you really are tuned in at last: "face the truth" you say, maybe the penny has dropped that particular phrase could never be used to describe BK as he doesn't know what the truth is or certainly hasn't used it whilst he's been the Chairman.
John Talbot
41   Posted 12/02/2011 at 16:29:39

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Gavin ? "it desperately needs someone to realise that breaking the monoculture of reliance on matchday income alone is the future as alluded to by Colin Fitzpatrick."

Who and how... confined by the ground and the lack of money?

Jim Lloyd
42   Posted 12/02/2011 at 16:24:33

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I think Ray Said (#18) and Colin Fitzpatrick (#33) have both written excellent posts, which articulate the views of many fans that I know... me included.

It seems to me that he may not have meant it but he seems to be saying that we should not have hopes that our club can rise from the low state we find ourselves in and we shouldn't really have any expectations that the situation will improve. I do not see this happening while Kenwright and his associates are in control of this club.

As for a joint stadium, on balance, I would accept it... but it's not likely to happen. We haven't got as pot to piss in and, as CP has already stated, it would be like Arkwright's Emporium next door to Harrod's. They've said that they will do up Anfield anyway, so there's no point in a debate along that line.

I was reading earlier on, a letter from the Everton For Change group on NSNO (I think). It was a good letter and was very respectful to the club and pointed out that the group would wish to work positively with the Club to try to bring about an upturn in the Club's fortunes. The response from the club says it all to me (I'm paraphrasing but it was along the lines of "Dear riff raff, thank you for taking the time to write to us but we already have many means of communicating with our wonderful fans... and we don't need any more, thank you very much!" ? Just about shows me, how interested they are top listen to the genuine concerns of many Evertonians.

John Sreet, I've only been going from the sixties (lucky man that I am) but, since then, we've been going downhill, apart from that wonderful but brief few years in the mid-eighties. Where was the dream or the vision and the ambition to take our club forward?

And the situation is worse now, as the gap between the clubs with ambition and money leaves us further behind. Some contributers appear to be saying that it's not so bad if we just accept that we are a smalltime club. All I can see is that, if we carry on like this, fans will drift away... and I'm certainly thinking of it, because they see what is happening and that nothing is getting done by this board to arrest the decline.

Dennis Stevens
43   Posted 12/02/2011 at 16:52:49

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Tony, you didn't need to waste your time on that pitiful drivel, you could have just said you're really grateful for the mediocrity delivered by the Board.

Sadly, it seems you're not alone!

Tony McNulty
44   Posted 12/02/2011 at 17:05:01

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I was at a business lunch earlier this week to hear Julie Meyer (the entrepreneur and BBC on-line dragon) talking about entrepreneurialism. She made the point that "capital follows ideas".

Essentially, in her view, getting money is never a problem if you have good ideas. She tells people to focus on developing great ideas as the priority. If the ideas are good. the money will flow.

With due deference to our Board's defendants, Goodison Park has not exactly been a great ideas factory. It has been more a case of accepting terminal decline and bemoaning our fate. That is the real sad legacy of the Kenwright era for me.

I can see it now in years to come, an academic paper on this subject ? "Terminal decline: mediocrity and Everton Football Club at the turn of the century and beyond" ... unless they sell up and let someone with some fresh ideas have a go.

Ian Edwards
45   Posted 12/02/2011 at 17:15:27

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The mentality of some Everton fans is beyond me. They objected to their own ground in Kirkby but want to share with a neighbour we despise.

We tolerate a manager with the tactical nouse of house brick who has won nothing for 9 years, who adopts tactics to send most fans to sleep... who is still hoisting the white flag at the big four ? which has been brought into sharp focus in that Liverpool's new Manager (of their worst team in a generation) has been in the job a month and has won at Chelsea.
John Sreet
46   Posted 12/02/2011 at 17:17:03

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Gavin ? do you REALLY think that we can't figure that out? It's not too difficult to understand, but there is no plan, you and me and all the ranters on here don't have a plan.... and it's not a question of accepting it, but you and your 'mates' are just howling at the moon.

BK needs to sell, it's the only way and it will take more than a millionaire like Randy Lerner... now we see Liverpool ousted as one of the big 4... poor management over 20 years, no it's big bucks.

Please do me a favour don't treat us all like prize idiots.

If you have a credible plan... let's hear it; if not, you're just pissing in the wind.

Martin Mason
47   Posted 12/02/2011 at 17:18:50

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Can I just say that those of you who resort to rudeness and personal attacks on Tony for stating his opinion that whatever weak argument you had was immediately lost. Tony's points match the balance sheet and come on, what would you do differently to produce revenue?

Or do you feel that there's an oil sheikh out there that BK is refusing to sell to?

Phil Martin
48   Posted 12/02/2011 at 18:07:29

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Tony, we haven't financially competed with Man U for 15+ years.,

We haven't competed with Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal for over 10.

We now don't even compete with Stoke, Wolves or Bolton.

Well run, financially... You're having a laugh, mate.
Brian Waring
49   Posted 12/02/2011 at 18:14:56

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Phil makes a good point: how can we be well run financially, when we can't even compete with the teams mentioned by Phil? You can add West Ham, Fulham and probalby the rest of the other teams outside the top 6 to that list as well.

Also, it looks like we may have to sell the family silver in the summer to just keep afloat. I don't see any other teams in the Prem who look like they may have to go down this road.
Paul Rice
50   Posted 12/02/2011 at 18:06:55

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I'm not sure what the rest of you think but almost ALL of the arguments about this kind of thing can be summed up if you look at the two types of supporters:

1. Supporters who want success at any cost... even if that cost is selling your club to some rich anonymous organisation who will then populate your team with mercenary players.

2. Supporters who would rather scrap it out at the bottom/mid-table, have the odd cup run now and again, but remain conventionally owned with players who WANT to play for you.

Personally I can't change the direction that football has taken over the years so I'd rather stay struggling than sell out.

To put it in perspective, most of my best moments as a supporter have come when we struggled: Royle's first derby; every time Dunc got sent off for knacking someone; Kanchelskis destroying a defense; relegation escapes on the last day... that's what football is about ? excitement!

Johnny foreigner buying the club as a plaything and sticking some Torres type in the side for £50 mil does nothing for me.

It takes a lot to admit to being that kind of supporter because it makes you sound like you have no ambition ? it's not though... it's just a different way of thinking.

I reckon this is why views are always so polarized about this kind of thing.

Is BK a good director? ? Probably not. Would I rather he was our director rather than some Shiekh? ? Every time.

Brian Waring
51   Posted 12/02/2011 at 18:32:03

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The problem in your line of thinking, Paul, is slowly but surely, we will get left further and further behind.

As I mentioned, it looks like we may have to sell our saleable assets (players) just to keep afloat ? how long can we keep doing that, before the shit really hits the fan? ... relegation etc???
Tom Hughes
52   Posted 12/02/2011 at 18:27:04

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My best days watching the Blues was when we looked down on the rest. Going the match knowing I was literally watching one of the best teams in the world... It'll probably never happen again while we have to continually sell our best to balance the books (or should I say, stay afloat).

Royle's first derby? A good game, but not a patch on Bayern Munich or many other great games of the mid-80s.

It isn't just about making a choice between the polarised options of either BK or some "rich arab"...... or between "selling our souls to mercenaries" or "scrapping it out" etc.

People are making legitimate arguments about a whole list of poor decisions and failures by this board over a long period, and it is the consequences of these that sees the club in the position it is in.
Gavin Ramejkis
53   Posted 12/02/2011 at 18:39:12

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John (#40), most certainly not the current Chairman or board. How often is the stadium used for anything other than football matches? How many innovative non-football related, non-matchday related initiatives do the club run? Outspent by Crawley Town, does anyone have the stats for off-field income by club as I'm pretty certain we would be at the foot of it.

John (#45), the plan is to protest and hit that useless prick BK where it hurts, in season ticket renewals; he can go fuck himself sideways if he thinks he's getting another £500/£600 from me... multiply that and who is going to pay the wages of the players?

If he doesn't listen to that, the club goes to the wall and he gets hit as his shares become worthless. Or you could bury your head in the sand and say it's not your problem or announce you will do fuck all about it. Compliance with the status quo and you become part of the problem, not the solution.

So what are you going to do about it, then, John?

John Sreet
54   Posted 12/02/2011 at 18:52:01

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I am not lucky enough to live even within driving distance of Goodison; if I did, I would have a season ticket.

You support your team through thick and through thin; I hate Man City but boy do I admire those fans who went with them down to Division One. Maybe you are a designer fan.... only the best is good enough for you; well, life ain't like ? that neither is football.

I love watching Everton play, I have always loved Everton, through the crap times and through the brilliant times.... So don't ask what I will do ? I will support my team.

Bill Kenwright isn't here forever, he will eventually sell; David Moyes will eventually go... I hope when that happens, your wishes are fulfilled by a rich sheik.

For me, there's always been the game, I have never booed a man wearing an Everton shirt, and ? no matter what pricks might be currently in charge ? I will support my team.

THAT'S WHAT I WILL DO, GAVIN!!!!!!!!!! Head in the sand... really? Be careful cos the water table isn't that deep and you could drown!

Gavin Ramejkis
55   Posted 12/02/2011 at 19:08:13

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John, so what do you do to actually support the team? Go to away matches? Buy merchandise or a season ticket to Sky?

You asked what I'd do and I told you; seemed to touch a nerve but here's the rub, John, I've worked all over the country and offshore and still kept a season ticket, paying fucking thousands to see the club, paying a small fucking fortune to it... so when you have the gall to ask what I'd do, then take the knock, fucking diddums.

My money, my choice on how to spend it... but don't come the big 'I am' when you spend what sounds like fuck all on it ? It's nobody's fault you live elsewhere, unless you were deported.

I've never asked for a sheik either ? just a solvent businessman or woman with more of a clue on how to turn coin than Kenshite and his cronies have.

Paul Rice
56   Posted 12/02/2011 at 18:56:34

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Fair points chaps.......but times have moved on from when we where up in the rarefied atmosphere.

You either have a very (and 'very' is the important word) rich benefactor or you'll need nothing short of a miracle to succeed.

It's probably easier for me to deal with because I grew up with the bad old days/Dogs of War teams... we've been shite as long as I've known ? by comparison, this is quite a successful time for my generation.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I might be!) but we didn't 'buy' any of our success in the past? Seems to me that a lot of supporters (not all... but a lot) want the Citteh quick-fix route.

Then again... I don't pour 40 quid a week into the club so I guess you can factor that into how valid my argument is.

Either way, I think football in general has become a much sadder place in the last 10 years.

David Israel
57   Posted 12/02/2011 at 19:15:47

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I think the thrust of your article, Tony, implies that we might as well resign ourselves to our current status ? as if there was nothing to be done about it... as if we have been permanently cast off from the group of top clubs in England.

We take a look around and see even clubs beneath the egregiously named "Big Four" aiming high and improving all the time. Tottenham, Sunderland and Aston Villa (who, admittedly, hit a lean spell this season, but that's part and parcel of competing) have all been investing and improving. You will argue that this is because they have people in charge who can afford to invest some of their money, but it's patently obvious that that is what we need. Why, almost every other club relies on that (and so did we in the great days), so the obvious solution is for the current lot to be really active in seeking a buyer and be off!

We don't need to look for a Sheikh or a Russian plutocrat, there are other sorts of people with the means and the business skills to take over a football club, as has been seen elsewhere. That's what the people in charge have to do, rather than banging on about how well run Everton FC are considering its dire circumstances.

Ground-sharing is a non-starter, even without going into its pros and cons. I'm against it, but people are of course entitled to have different views. It is a common thing in Italy ? and only there ? but even there, some clubs are looking at the possibility of building their own grounds.

A club's ground is part of its heritage, helps create support. Football may well be a business but it is not a business like any other. The supporters are much more than mere consumers. A club's ground is much more than the place where the team plays every fortnight.

Malcolm Szuplewski
58   Posted 12/02/2011 at 20:37:21

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We have to do something with Goodison.
Jim Lloyd
59   Posted 12/02/2011 at 20:15:47

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Paul, we did buy our success in the past. Every successful club (mind you, it depends a bit on how you measure success) has spent money in buying that success: Arsenal, United, Chelsea, Blackburn are the only ones to have won the Premier League and they all spent many millions doing it.

We had a short period when we were called the "Mersey Millionaires" and looked as though we would go on from the great side we had... but we didn't and I put that down to our choice of manager at the time. (That's only an opinion but that's what the game's about.)

I don't think that fans are criticising Kenwright for having little money. We're criticising him for his history of showing his absolute reluctance to lose the reins of power... at the expense of our club.

Do you remember the King's Dock episode? Or the Fortress Sports Fund episode? I criticise Kenwright for saying "there are no Fairy Godmothers out there". Not long after he said that, several Premier League clubs were bought. I know he's a theatre buff but instead of a fairy godmother, I think we've got Widow Twankey.

Well said, David (#56). I would have put up with a ground share if that was the only realistic option but it's dead and gone. I couldn't agree more about the importance of our own ground and what it means. Let's hope someone will come in who'll begin rebuilding Goodison and start to take this club forward again.

Paul Rice
60   Posted 12/02/2011 at 21:20:46

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Bit of a fuck-up really, isn't it?
Jim Lloyd
61   Posted 12/02/2011 at 21:25:29

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Yes mate, it is. I believe that there are many fans who want to get involved with the club and would be well willing to put money in. Look at the responses to the EFC Trust that has been posted on here.

Now if the club listened to the Everton For Change group and said "Let's talk and see if there is anything feasible your ideas", I'd have some respect for the board. Instead, they got a response which, in effect, told them that "we're not interested." That would be fine if the club were in a position of financial strength but I believe that this isn't the case.

We have a Billionaire who is associated with the club but I'm not sure in what capacity. We have Robert Earl as a director who is evidently reasonably wealthy. Neither of these gents seem eager to invest in the club, as Kenwright is evidently looking for a buyer. Yet we have many Evertonians, who are not looking for a financial return, willing to invest in the club and getting fecked off.

It might not be practical, what many of us wish to do and I've seen posts asking: What is the Business Plan? Well, the Plan, whether it is a "Business" one or not, is to see if many of us contributing to get this club moving forward, both with the ground and with finances for players, is achievable.

Otherwise, if we don't get someone with money and the will to begin the rebuilding, my fear is the club will just sit in the doldrums, gradually losing support as fans become disillusioned....

Blimey! Saturday night and I'm doom and gloom ? sorry for that. There is a greatness with all that Everton is... it's just so feckin' frustrating to see what's happening.

Tony Wilson
62   Posted 12/02/2011 at 21:53:46

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There are some seriously angry people out there!

Than kyou Will Mitchell (#27), for understanding and reiterating my main points. Just to clarify: I never said the club is well run per se. I said that the club was not poorly run financially. The accounts are testament to this, whether you detest the board or not.

I would like to thank Ray Said (#18), for taking my article in the spirit it was meant to be taken: a primer for challenging the imperfect conclusions I personally came to after some reading around the subject.

On that note, I further extend my parting sentiment from the above article, i.e., I may be wrong, and if you think there are ways that Everton can really challenge financially, then tell us your ideas. Criticising is vacuous without alternative solutions. A complete moron can say "you're shit, that's shit... blah blah, where's me fuckin' medication gone?!!" Not particularly helpful to anyone.

Ultimately, we all want success for Everton. Don't forget that.

David Israel
63   Posted 12/02/2011 at 22:12:11

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Paul (#49), I could agree with your standpoint if everybody else had to rely just on the normal turnover of their clubs. It would be more of a level playing-field and we could get our odd chance at winning something. But that's not the way things are ? or have ever been ? which means that, in the end, your philosophy would see us go down into the Championship... and perhaps stay there.

And I don't think supporters can be so neatly divided into those two groups you suggest. There are people in-between who want to see some sensible investment instead of the current stagnation, but with our feet firmly on the ground ? I mean, people who are not necessarily looking for an Abramovich or a Sheikh Mansour figure.
Jim Lloyd
64   Posted 12/02/2011 at 23:21:01

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Tony, you have written an article from what you believe... there's nowt wrong in that and because there are different views expresed, doesn't mean that you weren't right to post a thought-provoking piece.

I think though, that you let yourself down as asker of pertinent questions when, in your last paragraph, you ask "If you think there are ways that Everton can really challenge financially, then tell us your ideas. Criticising is vacuous without alternative solutions..."

I've seen Tony I'Anson come up with a good idea; I've seen Tom Hughes come up with a good idea... and there have been many more. Unfortunately, the club appear to not wish to engage. I refer you to the post that's just been written called "Evertonians for Change ? a response from the club" letter. I think that may show you that there isn't a lack of ideas... just a lack of a hearing aid within the club.

Chris Jones
65   Posted 13/02/2011 at 01:19:05

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Did we buy success in the 80s? Not really. The outlay for Southall, Sharp, Reid, Bracewell, Gray, Harper, Sheedy, Power, and Trevor Steven was modest (Reid, Gray and Power cost buttons and I can remember pals, who supported other clubs, laughing at us taking them). We splashed the cash for Heath, but he hardly cost an amount commensurate with the sort of sums Villa paid for Bent and Citeh gave us for Lescott (i.e. HALF what Chelski paid for Torres).

Wenger has shown at Arsenal that you don't have to spend a fortune. Indeed, Moyes has done ok with some astute buys (Cahill, Pienaar, Coleman, et al). It's clear Moyes had a long term plan to build a quality, young squad, but it took 9 years.

After the failure of DK, and the club pointing out that finance for a new ground etc is going to be hard to come by, maybe EFC needs to publicly acknowledge we'll be at Goodison for another generation and instruct the Chief Exec to formulate a 10 year plan to improve the Old Lady ? success to be measured by securing as noticeable an improvement in revenues as Moyes has been able to achieve in terms of improving the playing squad he inherrited from his predecessor.
Alan Clarke
66   Posted 13/02/2011 at 08:03:29

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Tony, you should learn to take criticism for a shit argument. People are allowed to say that what you have said is utter shit, especially because it is. Debate is not always about offering an 'alternative' view. Sometimes, it is just about highlighting what the other person has said, doesn't make sense.

Well done for writing an article but the level of thought gone into it doesn't warrant any praise. As you will see over the next 12 months, we are well and truly up shit creek. You should expect an angry response from those who can see that and haven't chosen to follow your naive 'head in the sand' approach.
Jamie Rowland
67   Posted 13/02/2011 at 09:36:23

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Ray Said, the Park End cannot be extended. The footings for extension where not put in due to cost. As such, to expand it would mean knocking it down.
Ray Said
68   Posted 13/02/2011 at 09:46:21

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Jamie (68)
My post stated that 'the Park End could probably hold a three-tier stand holding 20,000 if we used all the footprint available'. I meant from that a new stand on the site of the current stand rather than an extension of the current stand.
Tom Hughes
69   Posted 13/02/2011 at 13:20:34

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Where does this come from? Why can't secondary or offset foundations suffice? Not to say that this is the only way of resolving GP's, or even just the Park End's issues.... but almost any stand can be added to.... even the Bullens! Existing structures needn't have to take any additional loads.
Ray Said
70   Posted 13/02/2011 at 15:00:10

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Tom (70)
Glad you hit this one on the head. There is a persistent opinion / lie from the club's owners that the ground is falling down (remember the way in which Goodison was going to fail to gets its safety certificate?), that the Goodison footprint won't support redevelopment and that the existing structures would have to be bulldozed and would require £300 Million to rebuild.

'Economical with the truth' to say the least.

John Sreet
71   Posted 13/02/2011 at 17:47:24

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Gavin (#55) ? No, I have not been deported; sad that you need to resort to cynical comments, but I cross an ocean every month and live 300 miles away, but as you ask have spent tens of thousands of pounds supporting Everton over 56 years.

Really no point in continuing this conversation...

Nick O'Donoghue
72   Posted 14/02/2011 at 18:02:29

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Tony, well said. Everton need change. The board are doing as good a job as they can. Unfortunately for Everton, the stadium is a massive stumbling block.

Let's look at the Lower Gwladys Street End. When you sit three quarters up the stand, match viewing is hampered by a low ceiling and posts in the way. This is a similar problem that exsists right along the Paddock and Lower Bullens. The Upper Gwladys, Bullens and Main Stand are hampered by posts all the way round. So, with this in mind, it has a major effect on attendance. Who in their right mind would pay Premier League ticket prices when viewing is limited?

The board have worked hard to get council help and approval on plans, only to be kicked in the teeth. The council are and have failed to provide adequate support for one of the city's major icons.

People need to remember Everton is a business and like all they need to run on profit and loss margins. Ok we have a debt but it is nothing in comparison with other clubs within the league. Kenwright has run the club the way it's meant to be run and been honest throughout. During this period we have seen our record buy in the market beaten about four times.

I have faith that the club will get owners to take it forward. But until the day we get a new stadium, we will financially have our backs against the wall but our heads above water. It's not the board's fault, that lies at the doorstep of the leaders of the city council for not seeing an opportunity to get this once power house of English football the platform to compete with the best. Everton is a giant and I am confident we will be back there again.

Michael Kenrick
73   Posted 14/02/2011 at 20:46:25

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Nick, I see you are a new member and I don't know where you were around 2002-03? Maybe you heard of the Kings Dock proposals?

A fantastic opportunity for Everton, spearheaded by Kenwright and the Everton Board... with massive massive help from Liverpool City Council to secure a mammoth chunk of the funding from various (mostly EU) sources for what was to be the quintessential iconic Everton stadium ? on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey.

Do you recall how it went tits up? Kenwright initially said the relatively small Everton contribution (£30M for a £300M stadium) was famously "ringfenced"... turned out that was a lie.

When his one-time friend Paul Gregg offered to underwrite a finance package for the stadium, Bill not only rejected it, he invented a totally fallacious entity called Fortress Sports Fund, said the check would be in the bank "tomorrow", wheeled in to an AGM one Christopher Sammuleson to pretend to be an Evertonian, and preceded to promote the most unbelievable smear campaign against Gregg in the local press.

The council, who had been backing Everton's proposals for the site, were aghast in horror. Kenwright promised he could get the money without Gregg... but deadline passed deadline and months elapsed before the council had to admit the project was dead.

Killed by one man: William Kenwright, CBE. LCC where ashamed of the whole enterprise and honestly, can you blame them?

So no more of your revisionism here please. Plenty of us read the reports of what happened... it's harder to understand why, but the consensus is that Kenwright would have lost control of the club if he had fallen for Gregg's cunning 'reverse mortgage' ? and there was no way in hell he was going to allow that to happen.
Nick O'Donoghue
74   Posted 14/02/2011 at 21:21:26

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Hi Mr Kenrick, Everton's proposal was one of several the council were looking at for the docks. Ok Kenwright and the club struggled with the money. But the council came out saying that the club couldn't come up with the money (fair enough). But the real reason was they didn't want large scale of football fans within the docks area as it would have damaged the environment there. So that was dead in the water before it even started.
Dennis Stevens
75   Posted 16/02/2011 at 17:54:23

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Haha, I'm so glad I clicked on this - what a ludicrous pair posts from Nick!
A small degree of ignorance would be excusable, if you didn't assert that blatantly untrue comments are statements of fact. I can only assume you're just a pathetic wind-up merchant.
Tony Wilson
76   Posted 17/02/2011 at 23:37:09

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Quality Nick, you annoyed the editor with your first ever post mate.

Maybe stick to bluekipper? (joke)

ps. anyone who digs this old article up might be interested to know that whilst I stand by the fact that we are "not poorly manged financially", I am coming around to the fact that the board is possibly not suitable for maintaining the status of EFC.

This article was a reaction to the diatribe being spewed by the usual suspects, who seem to insist on continually embellishing the truth, thus weakening their possibly otherwise reasonable arguments.
Nick O'Donoghue
77   Posted 22/02/2011 at 07:12:22

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Dennis, before you start having ago at folk why don't you come up with a decent argument? Why don't you look at the club's website and they will show the economic disadvantages Goodison Park has on matchday revenue. And it is a FACT that the council did not support the notion of a football stadium right in the heart of the city's main tourist area. Also knocked us back on Stanley Park due to the fact they didn't not want a football stadium built on the park.

You're going to turn round and say but Liverpool have planning permission, which is true. But everything has its price and Liverpool offered money that council couldn't refuse and look at the problems they had. Instead of being a little baby and numpty, if you don't agree with what I say then come up with a intelligent response.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
78   Posted 22/02/2011 at 14:35:48

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Nick, I'm not sure where you are getting this stuff from, but it flies in the face of what most people know and accept to be the facts.

Let's work on just one for starters: Kings Dock failed because the money that Bill Kenwright famously and repeatedly said was "ringfenced" simply did not exist. He, on behalf of Everton, had strung everyone along ? LCC, Liverpool Vision, NWDA ? with his lies. It took many months before the council and others finally twigged and dropped the project.

Now, if you want to post some more on here, please address specifically that one issue and say either you agree or disagree. If you disagree, you need to include factual references to published documents, online or hardcopy, that can be checked to establish anything you claim that runs counter to that account.
Tony Wilson
79   Posted 23/02/2011 at 23:47:51

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With all due respect Michael, #77 sounds like a veiled threat, which does you no favours. You demand unequivocal evidence form Nick to support his claims, yet you don't guide him towards the evidence that supports your conclusions.

Your website attracts thinking people of varying degrees of intelligence and knowledge. Therefore, some posters will draw the wrong conclusions or simply not know enough to form them. Perhaps encouraging readers to learn rather than patronsisng them would help to spread understanding, which is what you should surely strive for if your "facts" are correct.

Colin Fitzpatrick recently wrote an article that had a decent number of qoutations to back up his claims, though they may have been taken out of context.

Even with your documented "facts" the sad truth is that none of us really know the ins and outs of the business side of the club. Perhaps this frustration is what stirs up such venom in other posters (see above).
Christine and Gavin, #4 and #5 sound like they could really fit in with Kenwright if he is indeed a condescending bullshitter.
Nick O'Donoghue
80   Posted 23/02/2011 at 23:38:49

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Firstly Dennis grow up. Michael I fully appreciate your comments and I do fully agree with some of the things you say. I am well aware that lies have been made towards us the supporters. But you cannot tell me that all chairman of top level football clubs haven't lied at some stage of course they have. They are liers cheats and back stabbers, that is the make up of self made millionairres.

But do you honestly think Paul Gregg was the answer, no the guy married into rich family and trust me you don't want these people running a company. They are like kids in a candy shop with no self control. I would love to some one else in charge.

I also don't close the door to the fact that Kenwright failing to come up with cash played a key role in the council turning the club down. I am adding to the fact that thier were other key roles one of which I have clearly stated.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
81   Posted 24/02/2011 at 05:36:40

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Tony, with all due respect, I think a stronger line in this instance is justified ? it is certainly not "patronising".

While all the gory details behind the collapse of the Kings Dock have been kept pretty well under wraps, the main reason was lack of money forthcoming from Everton FC. I could round up all the references citations and links to support that but I'm not going to. We did it day by day on this website, documenting the Council's position right through this sad and sorry episode as it happened, and detailing why it ultimately collapsed.

Nick stated unequivocally that, quote: "the real reason was they didn't want large scale of football fans within the docks area as it would have damaged the environment there" unquote (emphasis added). I don't recall that issue ever being even mentioned ? never mind it being the real reason why Kings Dock failed.

I think, in this instance, asking for a link or a reference that supports this bizarre claim is perfectly reasonable.
Tony Wilson
82   Posted 24/02/2011 at 09:09:02

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Fair enough, Michael.

As a relatively new user of this site, I think it is an excellent source of information.

I think it could act to serve the club in the long term.

Whilst you rightly allow other contributors to say what they like about the club, I think you have a particular power as the editor to change attitudes. Too often, it appears that a clique of well-informed sycophants dominate these discussions. "Heads in the sand", "BK apologiosts", "Moyes apologists"... readers are constantly pigeon-holed.

"I could round up all the references citations and links to support that but I'm not going to. We did it day by day on this website". How sad a statement. So, effectively, if we weren't readers of your website in the past then we are not worthy of your your guidance. What a missed opportunity to reach out to your fellow fans.

"So no more of your revisionism here please. Plenty of us know what happened... it's harder to understand why, but the consensus is...". Not patronsing? Plenty of us know what happened you say, i.e. you don't. Perhaps he doesn't, but do you think he is inclined to find the truth now that you have alienated him?

You probably think I am an opinionated moron now, but I think in general you are well informed and wise; this is more of a side-issue about the site and your position of relative power.


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