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A vital spark or silence

By Gavin Ramejkis :  14/02/2011 :  Comments (76) :
I've recently read a great article on the BBC website written by a professor and articled historian working in the Middle East who has discussed some of the common catalysts behind revolutions in Iran, China, Indonesia, Ukraine, Tunisia and Egypt. Here's the article link ? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12431231.

What immediately caught my eye was the opening paragraph and quote from Trotsky:?

"Trotsky once remarked that if poverty was the cause of revolutions, there would be revolutions all the time because most people in the world were poor. What is needed to turn a million people's grumbling discontent into a crowd on the streets is a spark to electrify them."
That last sentence, although on a much larger scale than we have, hits the nail on the head. What would be your vital spark to cause you to protest and how would you do it?
  • Public protest outside the ground?
  • Private protest through communication with the club?
  • Remain silent and cease to spend your hard earned on match tickets or season tickets?
A reply I got on another thread (thanks Andy) reminded me instantly of a later paragraph:?
"What collapses a regime is when insiders turn against it. So long as police, army and senior officials think they have more to lose by revolution than by defending a regime, then even mass protests can be defied and crushed. Remember Tiananmen Square."
If David Moyes was to speak out against the Chairman and board ? as unlikely as it appears to be, given his party line "real fans stick with the club through administration and relegation" quote ? who would you side with, given the choice of Bill Kenwright and his board or David Moyes?

Two more telling but true lines gives the obvious -

"Graceful exits are rare in revolutions"
and
"Often there is a hunger among people to punish the fallen rulers" ? which would in this case relate to ill-feelings and perception of those deposed.
I've deliberately written this article in an open manner without bias to seek responses and views from both sides; the floor is open, ladies and gentlemen ? what happens next is down to all of us.

Reader Comments

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Jason Lam
1   Posted 15/02/2011 at 04:05:40

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Interesting thought. I'm not sure Moyes would wish to part from his cozy 60 grand a week. Also even if he did he's merely an employee and I don't think he'll spark a 'revolution'.

Me thinks BK and DM are in it together and hogging the Everton trainset. Can you contemplate BK giving Moyes the sack? Nope. Moyes resigning? Nope. BK selling??? Nope. The pair of them are in it together and when you have people locked in a room and thinking they are right, well it's not looking good, on and off the field

Maybe if our best players handed in transfer requests in unison?
Rob Teo
2   Posted 15/02/2011 at 05:17:21

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I think public protest outside the ground is the spark that's needed to oust BK. It may not be sufficient, but it is necessary - if only to show those fence-sitting or passive/resigned fans that there are many other long-suffering fans out there who have decided enough is enough.

As for the other options, it's been shown time and again that, with Robert Elstone and Ian Ross at the helm, dissent through private communication will only get white-washed and swept under the carpet.

As for boycotting Goodison, I fear that it'll have more of a detrimental effect on our finances and team morale than on changing the leadership at Everton. It may lead to the latter in the long term, but the effects in the short term could be devastating.

Jason: I'm not sure if Moyes is necessarily against resigning because he's "hogging the trainset". Don't get me wrong: I think his tactics are atrocious at times, that he's somewhat out of his depth when playing against the big boys (esp away from home and in Europe), that his man-management skills are mediocre at best, and that the years at Everton has led him to become stale and dour.

But he also strikes me, too, as someone who's very professional and rigid in his views on what the "right" thing to do is - and sticking with it. While his 60,000/week is obviously a huge incentive against resigning, I'd say that a part of his unwillingness to resign (or to voice any displeasure against BK) is also down to his professionalism. (I'm thinking back to his behaviour in relation to the recent Fabregas incident, Lescott transfer saga, relationship with Rooney, etc.)

Anyway, back to the original article, it's been a long time coming, but I agree change is in the air. The natives are getting restless, and all we need is a spark to oust Bill "bullshit"wright. What happens next may be down to us, but can we convert thought into action?
Jamie Sweet
3   Posted 15/02/2011 at 05:58:19

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I've said on other threads Moyes should have said "back me or I walk" in January.

More pressure needs to be applied to BK from every angle possible. That includes fans, former players still involved with the club, and especially our manager.

BK is still way too comfortable sitting there - taking our hard earned money - whilst watching our once great club turn to shit and doing nothing about it.
Guy Hastings
4   Posted 15/02/2011 at 07:34:03

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Whatever your opinion of Kenwright or Moyes, I believe it would take relegation for either to go. Moyes for reasons cited by the second part of Rob #2's post. Kenwright, I believe, would stick around for the parachute payments in the hope that we go back up first or second time ? 'One of my proudest moments as an Evertonian,' he said.
Mike Green
5   Posted 15/02/2011 at 07:33:54

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If you want BK out the only quick, effective way of doing it is a mass walkout.

This not only acts as a very visual form of demonstration, shown across the world if you pick a televised game but hits the board where it hurts ? in the pocket.

Yes, it will hurt the club. But see it as a form of chemotherapy which, whilst being very damaging for the body, is essential to kill the cancer, after which the body can recover.

I'm not advocating it as its pretty severe and would also be very difficult to pull off but if less than 10,000 turned up to the next televised game it would be the beginning of the end for Kenwright. Probably because he couldnt stand the public humiliation more than anything else.

We'd have a new owner within weeks, If that's what you want.
Alan Clarke
6   Posted 15/02/2011 at 08:09:27

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The thing is Mike, I think Kenwright could stand the humiliation. I think he'd win a massive sympathy vote from all his mates in the press. I think he'd do a good job of painting us out to be emotional hotheads like those Geordies. Most of us have thought that ourselves about the Geordies, that they obviously don't have a clue about football. It would most probably be us that would end up feeling humiliated.

I'd love to protest and for it to work but I really fear that it would do our cause more harm than good right now. I think KEIOC should be commended for all their hard work yet this group are now seen as troublemakers. I've even heard them described as 'thugs' by some Evertonians. Kenwright is the king of manipulaiton when it comes to the press and media. For some reason he is very well loved by those outside of Everton. I think this is why quite a few fans are still on the fence about Kenwright - they believe all the crap written by Prentice et al. Unless the vast majority of Evertonians truly believe Kenwright to be the sham he is, a protest won't work. It's why there have been 3 failed protests already.

Before we go down the route of protest, we need the media on our side. The ineptitude of Kenwright's running of our club needs to be highlighted publicly and accepted by the media. We need them on our side to really turn the screw on Kenwright. We also need those 'fence-sitting' Evertonians to face up to the problems and the only way they'll join in is if they start reading more stuff in the papers about the mess we're in.

I think Evertonians for Change are the best way forward. We need a media savvy approach with non-aggressive action to start with so by the time we do protest, the press are completely on our side.
Alan Williams
7   Posted 15/02/2011 at 08:21:35

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"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes."

Sir Winston Churchill
Derek Thomas
8   Posted 15/02/2011 at 08:22:02

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The spark is yet to arrive and the 'tinder' is still damp, things will have to get a lot lot worse before the tinder drys out and the 'wets' are seeing the light. Then maybe the spark will arrive. But buggered if I know what it will be
Dick Fearon
9   Posted 15/02/2011 at 07:48:17

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We may find it hard to swallow yet we must face the truth that not a single realistic offer has been lodged for the club. Or any kind of offer if it comes to that.
It is plainly ridiculous to perpetuate that crap about mysterious multi millionaires willing to inject their vast fortune and being forced by Blue Bill to withdraw their offer and at the same time tell not a soul about it.
I have complete sympathy for a regime change but without certain pieces being in place it would be an excercise in futility.
A mass demonstration or even revolution may assuage feelings but before going down that path a credible alternative must be waiting in the wings.
Alan Clarke
10   Posted 15/02/2011 at 09:19:17

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Dick, the club has to actually be looking for someone to buy it though. If you wanted to sell your house, would you expect anyone to buy it without you advertising it first?

The club, so far, have not actively been seeking a buyer. Kenwright wants 'investment' not to sell. If all of us accept your line of thinking, then we really are fucked. Kenwright stays purely because you think there's no one else out there. I seriously don't believe that especially when we've seen lesser clubs attracting big money buy outs.
Jamie Connor
11   Posted 15/02/2011 at 09:34:50

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If you want to protest then pick the next televised home game and every season ticket holder stands outside until 15:10 then makes their way in and give the boys 80 minutes of non stop vocal support. Then you'll get your point made to the board by the team running out to an empty ground but you also get the level of support and passion we have for our club broadcast worldwide too.
Mike Gwyer
12   Posted 15/02/2011 at 09:42:04

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I've commented on the other post regarding "having a go at BK".

Supporters will eventually break, they always do - as in any marriage you can only take so much shit. However, we have multiple issues converging into one big fuckoff - namely the present recession and job losses, this will definately hit the gates at GP. Lack of funding to all business's, I guess we can call EFC a business - hence the reason there is no transfer cash and hence the reason BK is taking out loans with one arm bandits and the mexican mafia.

Then too boot EFC are playing shite, the EFC management is equally shite and to top of it off the EFC board is non-existant - coupled with the fact that there is not a single buyer who wants a run down stadium housing a second rate footy team that offers not a single hope of a return on investment.

And some how we as supporters are supposed to sort that shite out.




Michael Evans
13   Posted 15/02/2011 at 10:08:06

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Does this mean we are all revolting ?
Tony Wilson
14   Posted 15/02/2011 at 10:05:44

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Perhaps you are right gavin and forcing bk to walk, if possible, is the best way forward.

A vital detail is missing from this plan, though. Who will buy the club under such circumstances. Perhaps ken bates would like another shot at the big time? Mike ashley may be tired of winding up geordies and fancy a new challenge.

Liverpool attracted a successful group of investors because of their revenue, stadium, and world fame.

Your revolution analogy is poinient but I fear an iraq situation, ie no strategy once the dictator is beheaded.
John Audsley
15   Posted 15/02/2011 at 10:23:20

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Dick

We have no idea if an offer has been made or not

But its a dead question as BK only wants investment NOT a sale

The idea of EFC continuing without himself as the figurehead is beyond him
Laurie Hartley
16   Posted 15/02/2011 at 09:14:47

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This is Everton football club we are all bickering about. So I have had a good look at myself and come to the conclusion that the time to talk about getting rid of the board and perhaps the manager and players MIGHT be LATER (I have got an opinion on that). All concerned know that we are seriously looking down the barrel RIGHT NOW. We can't change the squad for the rest of the season so what is important is the NEXT game and the one after that. All we have left to lift the football club (manager and players) is our support and encouragement. We have to dig deeper as supporters in the belief that by giving them our unconditional support this will have an impact on the players and give them the will to survive and live to fight another day. If we keep moaning at them or forsake them in numbers they will throw the towel in.

Gavin you quoted Trotsky - I'm more of a romantic so here is something from The White Company by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

"By my hilt! lads," cried Aylward, jumping upon the fallen trunk, "I
think that we could not look the girls in the eyes if we let the prince cross the mountains and did not pull string to clear a path for him.
It is very well in time of peace to lead such a life as we have had
together, but now the war-banner is in the wind once more, and, by these ten finger-bones! if he go alone, old Samkin Aylward will walk besideit."

Come on you blues remember your history!
Chris Fisher
17   Posted 15/02/2011 at 10:32:47

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Id side with Moyes in a heartbeat, he took our club from relegation/mid table strugglers to a side challenging the top 4 and a constant european place, all he needed was some backing from the board to take us to the next level, he got nothing and now he is right back where he started because of that.
Richard Dodd
18   Posted 15/02/2011 at 10:15:25

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Whilst Gavin`s life-long obsession is a hatred of BK, he never suggests who might replace him for the better. A brief look at other clubs who have changed hands recently will bear witness to the old adage of `better the devil you know!`

Personally, I think the team`s present plight is less to do with the lack of wealth but more attributable to the failure to hit the back of the net consistently.

Richard Dodd
19   Posted 15/02/2011 at 10:40:30

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Please omit word `don`t`from last sentence.
Gavin Ramejkis
20   Posted 15/02/2011 at 10:52:04

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Doddy, please take a deep breath and count to ten, read the article, especially the last sentence which you appear to have ignored and I'll quote it for you "I've deliberately written this article in an open manner without bias to seek responses and views from both sides; the floor is open, ladies and gentlemen ? what happens next is down to all of us."

I've deliberately sat back to read the responses without adding my own as I've asked for views from both sides of the fence and want an idea from pro and anti camps. There will probably be readers of this website that might see my name and not even read the article, well more shame to them as I've asked pertinent questions without expressing my own view.

I'm not even going to comment on your views here but leave the thread and others to do so.
Andrew Laird
21   Posted 15/02/2011 at 10:47:32

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Richard, why should Gavin come up with a name to replace BK? I, personally, would gladly replace him with the statue of Dixie as they would both offer the same amount of business acumen. The added bonus would be that we would not have to put up with the lies and ridiculous soundbites to lull people like yourself into moronic apathy.

Moyes is not a great manager, anyone who thinks so should ask themselves if they remember him being sounded out for any other available jobs during his tenure.

The pair are a package, Moyes (Zippy) was silenced years ago with his ridiculous wage increase so BK (Bungle) is omitted from any blame.

I would choose Moyes from 10 years ago when the man was passionate, honest and ambitious. Whatever has happened in the years since bears no resemblence to the stubborn, egotistical and cowardly man parading under his now aged skin.
Alan Clarke
22   Posted 15/02/2011 at 11:18:36

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I'll do it, I'll run the club. There you go Doddy - me.

I won't sign fucking exclusivity agreements with Kitbag so we've no presence in any major shopping centres. I won't sign players on £75k a week when we can't afford it. I won't offer an average manager £65k a week when we can't afford it. I won't rebuff any attempts from other people willing to buy the club and put some money in because of an exclusivity deal on a doomed stadium move. I will hang a for sale sign on Goodison and actively look for a buyer. Failing that I will develop a strategy for moving the club forward and redeveloping Goodison. I will let the fans know how I intend to do this.

I won't sanction paying Anichebe £30k a week. I will balance the books so the future of the club is stable. If that means player sales then so be it but I'll be HONEST with the fans and let them know why we're doing it.

There you go, Clarke for chairman. I'm willing to put as much money in as Kenwright (£0) but I bet I could do a better job.
Matt Traynor
23   Posted 15/02/2011 at 11:18:45

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Jamie (#3), as others have stated, Moyes is too professional to throw his toys out of the pram in that manner, although more recent pronouncements would seem to imply dissatisfaction with things to a degree.

Remember the circus with Rafa and his bizarre press conferences? That kind of public spat with the owners would do nothing for a club with our lack of media presence.
Richard Tarleton
24   Posted 15/02/2011 at 11:32:32

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Thanks, Gavin, an excellent article and critique of the situation. Kenwright is simply a disgrace, he has been for over a decade and his cod man of the people act is offensive. I wrote an article on this site in 2002 about 'Our True Blue Chairman' and nothing's changed since then. The answer lies in a figure like Neville saying publicly what he sees as the problem in tems of the resourcing of our once great club.
Robert Daniels
25   Posted 15/02/2011 at 11:24:41

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I still can't believe there are people that still defend that disgrace of a man.

It's beyond me, that aside, why don't we as fellow supporters do something together?

I have the following suggestion: why don't we organise a place to meet up before a future home game? Obviously, some supporters wont be able to make it due to there location, but anyone who can should go.

Say, we meet in the Wilmslow or some other pub, an hour before the game, we could all take a banner, with some protest of BK's tenure on it.

Also, before the home game that we decide to protest at, we should all buy tickets in the Upper Bullens, or somewhere else that we think is a good vantage point.

From the Wilmslow or whereever, travel to Goodison, together, protesting as we go... people will see something is happening and be aware of a protest.

Once inside the ground, and at a choosen moment, unveil our banners ? just imagine, you would only need ten draped over the front of the Upper Bullens, and it would look like a mass protest. When the stewards come to take them down, refuse, to the point of being physicaly ejected from the stadium. When people see us being silenced, censored, they will not like it and there's your spark.

The revolution has in my opinion already started, it just needs to gather momentum.

Michael, has my permission to give anyone on here my email address so like-minded people can speak to me in private so we can organise something concrete ? the time to stand up has arrived.
Kevin Tully
26   Posted 15/02/2011 at 11:38:31

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Is BK capable of running any Premier League club? That has to be a resounding NO.

He has openly admitted he is not a businessman. He has openly admitted he is skint.

Can someone please explain why they would want him in charge of a business with an £80M turnover?

Finally, where the fuck is he?
Stephen Kenny
27   Posted 15/02/2011 at 11:50:08

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IMO we will hear grumblings of discontent for quite some time without anything really serious kicking off.

The only way that would change into something serious would be for David Moyes to get involved I.e. issue an ultimatum such as money or walk, a member of the board to lay bare some of Bill's skullduggery or a fan favourite player leaving and not being replaced, I don't think demonising the player through the local media will work this time funnily enough.

I'm going to Chelsea and throughout, at regular intervals, I'll be singing "Kenwright Out". I'm not really arsed if anyone agrees with me or not and I don't particularly care if anyone joins in, I'm not happy and I'm going to make it known. I've voted with my feet recently but that won't be enough.
Jamie Connor
28   Posted 15/02/2011 at 11:59:44

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Wait till the summer when it will all go off in the great asset-stripping exercise. It's ok the CEO saying we don't need to sell anyone but clubs have to strengthen and do so... but Everton can't, then obviously the assets on the pitch will go.

But what I don't want to see is any player receiving Lescott style treatment from us because, hand on heart, can any of us blame them for walking? No.

Mike Hughes
29   Posted 15/02/2011 at 12:16:24

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Interesting article.

I think it would be wise to have a concrete plan of action - i.e. our own Plan B formulated before protests and media involvement. Tony L'Anson's group etc as well as KEIOC and other interested and activated groups should lead the pack.

"Revenge" if that's what people want to call it (though I'm not a BK-hater and don't know all the facts) is a dish best served cold, not one with people effing, blinding and spitting all over it.

I'd suggest we do not want to look like an in-fighting rabble or mob (to continue the revolution analogy) but more like an organised bloodless military coup.

The Blue Revolution should be done in the Everton Way, not like a bunch of red, whining, gobshites.
Guy Wilkinson
30   Posted 15/02/2011 at 12:20:37

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Good article Jamie.

Free from the uninhibited vitriol of some of your postings.

You raise the notion of the spark or tipping point that will propel the thousands silently suffering into action.

Personally I would join a mass protest at the ground, but Allan @ 6 raises the critical point about media coverage and manipulation. I do detect a significant change in the National reporting around Everton ? openly critical and posing questions around where next for Moyes, eg Radio 5Live last night.

I think the vital spark will come at away games ? potentially the Chelsea match; lose that one (which I expect) and verbal protests will be noticed by the press.

Public protests outside the main stand after home games always seem more likely after night matches.

Dave Lynch
31   Posted 15/02/2011 at 12:35:55

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It's too late in the season to start protests imo. As much as I detest BK for how he runs the club and also the same at time over DM tactics, I feel further unsettling the club will have a knock-on effect with the players. Best wait till the season is over, then hunt the bastard down like a dog.
Dean Peamum
32   Posted 15/02/2011 at 12:53:37

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Trotsky was Red - don't listen to him
Dick Fearon
33   Posted 15/02/2011 at 12:50:22

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Richard T #23, Neville's words about the predicament we are in would resonate a bit more if he and his over paid team mates offered to forgoe a part of this weeks wages in recognition of their recent abject failure to do what they are paid to do. Fat chance of that happening tho.

In fact I would rather not have to put up with any words emanating from that load of fraudsters. "Keep your gobs shut and let your feet do the talking" should be writ large on the dressing room wall.

Steve Guy
34   Posted 15/02/2011 at 12:47:34

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Mr. Dodd. You have missed the point of the article, but that's been answered above. However, you also take the view that our plight is solely down to not scoring goals. Obvious on one level, but you are looking at the effect and not the cause. The cause is two fold

1. The Board should have provided the money for a decent striker last summer. They didn't. Who's to blame for that, surely it can only be Kenwright ?
2. However, when that money was not forthcoming, Moyes should have sold Pienaar (or another if he still was mad enough to believe Pienaar was going to sign) at that time and used the money for the striker we so obviously needed (with one recovering from a career threatening injury, the other only ever likely to play spasmodically and the third unproven at EPL level). He didn't. Bonkers. Who's to blame for that ? Moyes.

That's the whole problem in a nutshell, poor management in the two key positions in the Club.

Regarding the original article, Talksport yesterday featured Everton to an unparalled degree; on the 10am show and then again at 5pm. Callers were invited to ring in with their views. I listened for a full half an hour last night at 5pm whilst driving home and not one caller. Eventually they dropped it and went back to talking about the London clubs and the RS. So it would seem apathy is still holding sway; an opportunity to flag our concerns at a national level was missed. The fledgling pressure groups and the established ones should be using the airwaves to express the consensus.

By the way, if you want to know where Billy BS is, he's out and about promoting his new musical, the Wizard of Oz. No, the irony wasn't lost on me either.
David Bridge
35   Posted 15/02/2011 at 13:05:08

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Chris at #16, get real will you, Moyes did not turn us from a relegation threatened team to world beaters ?do you actually watch any games?

We scraped through to the Champions League because the RS ran out of steam and Bolton nearly tipped us there. Remind yourself what happened when we played in the Champions League, Moyes was really found out.

Then the Europa League we achieved this by being slightly better than mid table but we soon crashed out when again Moyes was found out.

Too many people support Moyes and BK so they would be unwilling to support a protest, I would say as bad as it sounds that Relegation may actually save our Club and would be the only thing that would force regime change. Relegation would mean the selling price was more realistic and we would attract investment.

Our best players will leave anyway whether we go down or languish in the PL so that doesn't matter and as for the PL money, BK has mismanaged this for years so doesn't actually deserve to get it, we will never see the money spent on the squad.

Mike Hughes
36   Posted 15/02/2011 at 13:15:42

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David @ #33

Relegation would be a total disaster and to suggest it may save EFC is complete and utter crap.
Shaun Brennan
37   Posted 15/02/2011 at 13:31:49

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Dean (30) you beat me to it ha ha.

The trouble with Evertonians is we are not a banner and flag waving buch. simple we have more things to do with our free time unlike that rabid lot over the park. They do know how to protest well though. Wether it involves walking down the street or to a lesser extent spitting on the owners son!

I quite like the white hanky trick the Real Madrid fans do when their team surrender on the pitch. But i think the majority of us have given up a long time ago.
Sean Stevenson
38   Posted 15/02/2011 at 13:30:14

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We need a bit more transparency and as a private limited company with BK and friends as majority shareholders we will not get it.

Why not campaign for a rights issue to dilute their holdings or even a full blown public offering? This will remove BK as shareholder and open the door for a public takeover. I suspect the value of the company on the exchange would be less than £100m and as a result more attractive. A rights issue would allow for a reduction in the debt - again making the company more attractive - since we are wasting money via interest payments.

Adam Bennett
39   Posted 15/02/2011 at 13:36:06

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David (33) ??when we played in the Champions League Moyes was really found out??

Yeah, because Peir-luigi Collina had fuck all to do with it did he?
Shaun Brennan
40   Posted 15/02/2011 at 13:42:24

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Adam (37) playing Beattie as a lone Striker and our new signing Neville in centre mid. I think he was found out!
James Stewart
41   Posted 15/02/2011 at 13:53:42

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Alan Clarke, Hear hear!

It amazes me to this day how much Billy Bullshit had to beg steal and borrow to buy the club and hasn't put a penny into the club since.

Better the devil you know yeah right! No one is asking for a Russian billionaire, Mr Dodd. Just someone who can supply/generate a little to modest account of cashflow will do!

Back to the original post. Interesting links Gavin. My feeling would be that Moyes will never revolt against Kenwright so I can't see him being any kind of spark.

He is often vocal about his "great chairmen" who he wouldn't swap. Depressing.

Jamie Connor
42   Posted 15/02/2011 at 13:36:50

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David 33. Can you honestly believe that relegation can benefit the club? You need to take your head out of the clouds mate. Relegation is the worst thing that can happen to a club. See if you can get Leeds, Forest, Wednesday or even City fans to name a few to agree with you.

You mention a realistic selling price, by this I assume you know the actual unrealistic selling price of the club so why don't you tell us all how much the club is for sale at? If there was a concrete interested bidder being foiled by BK's stubbornness, I'm sure the press would have been made aware of that by now meaning we would all be aware of that by now.

But in truth there's no interested bidders because the club makes £80m pa which barely covers outgoings. Contrast that with NESV who probably could have bought EFC, cleared the debt and invested on the pitch for 1/2-2/3 what they paid for the other shower but their turnover was £100m more than ours guaranteeing return on investment. Dark times mate, dark times ahead.

David Bridge
43   Posted 15/02/2011 at 14:09:34

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Adam #37 Collina was awful and the decision was wrong but you and I both know this decision didnt knock us out, the inability to beat them at Goodison effectively did it was too much to go away and beat them!

Mike and Jamie of course I dont want Relegation but the post was about Regime change and this is the only way we will get Regime change and actually be able to improve, we wont sink as low as Leeds and Forest but will bounce back up with new owners and a new manager (Hughton?) willing to play good football.

Jamie it is NOT my job to tell you or anyone the value of Everton to potential bidders but doesnt it prove how bad the situation is that no-one knows the value, no one knows how much potential bidders have offered / would offer and BK refuses to make this transparent.
Jamie Connor
44   Posted 15/02/2011 at 14:29:29

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I take your point, Dave but I think If someone wants to buy or invest in the club they will make the relevant enquiries and be told. On the flip side, I think someone may have mentioned on here if you were selling your house you'd attach a price to that and list it and not expect people to have ESP and know.

The main stumbling block is the revenue generated by the club. Ways around could be a shares issue as mentioned above but the majority shareholders won't want to dilute their holdings.

There's investing on the pitch to increase TV revenue and global exposure and winning of trophies. Winning trophies also buys you supporters abroad. Then there's increased corporate facilities which our new £9m tent 'may' bring.

I really don't understand how Goodison can't be redeveloped. You only have to go on google map and look at the amount of land we have compared to Liverpool who have redeveloped their whole ground. We have space to massively expand the Park End with another the height of the main stand increasing capacity to about 48000 ? it baffles me, it really does.

Den King
45   Posted 15/02/2011 at 14:54:19

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David #41, don't discount a comparison of our situation with Leeds or Forest. Remember that they both have the advantage of being single club cities.

And, Leeds is a wealthy city with a large set of nasty but animated and committed fans (well, many of them should be). Forest have been European Cup Winners, of course. So they both have a good history. [The Charlton comparison doesn't hold water, but what happened to these two, could happen to us]

And I feel sure that both would certainly have made more of the long unbroken period in the top division with the very lucrative rewards that flow from this. Clubs aspire to Premier League status in order to provide financial security for their club. We have had this for a record period and still we are paupers. This is the real wasted opportunity!

Whose fault is that?
Jamie Connor
46   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:13:44

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They missed the boat when we finished 4th. They should have said David here's £20m go and get us past villareal because if we win that game we'll get that £20m straight back and we'll take it from there. But there's no ambition. The boards philosophy is simply to make do.
Andrew Gilbert
47   Posted 15/02/2011 at 14:53:23

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"I've deliberately written this article in an open manner without bias to seek responses and views from both sides; the floor is open, ladies and gentlemen ? what happens next is down to all of us."

Where in your article does it give us the option of supporting the Club (Chairman, Manager support staff etc) and the Team.

Our only option you say is 'to protest' which is hardly open to views from both sides.

If you want my view then I would like first of all, the team to start scoring and winning more games and putting together some consistency.

This has been a strange season with some strange results of which only a few clubs have benefit from i'e the likes of Bolton, Stoke, Sunderland. Ourselves along with Chelsea, Villa and the shite have had poor results up to now but with support that could all change by the end of the season and we could end up in 8th place which is the minimum we should accept being an average season.

In the future it all depends if we believe Bill is looking for investment or new owners, if we don't believe then protest!

I for one would not want to invest in Everton at the current time as other more lucrative opportunities are out there where less can be spent for more gain.

To compete where we all want to we need investment from people like Warren Buffet, Carlos Slim Helu or Bill gates. (Carlos my favourite)
Or we wait for the money bubble to burst which it may very soon, when Abramovich and the Sheiks don't win every year they get bored and eventually they will go elsewhere, Sky money will dry up due to new euro Tv rules and better internet feeds from dodgy streams. We now have at least 6 highly funded teams if we were added to that list we would be more or less in the same position we have been in for the last few seasons, top 8 or better. Given the choice who are the best players going to play for ? Us or the fashionable London clubs, or the most famous club in the world MUFC (puke) or The Shite who lets face it have more pulling power than we do?

I would rather wait for a more even playing field where most of the players are British and the best ones end up at teams they supported (obviously a problem for players like Barmby and Keane) with the odd one going for big money elsewhere. Bring back the seventies and eighties! Die Sky and the greed you bought with you. (Maybe keep the 3d cameras cos I haven't seen it yet!)

P.s I really wish they would fix the bogs in the Upper Bullens and had taps that did more than drip freezing cold water.
Jamie Connor
48   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:31:44

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Andrew 45 a good point but teams are heavily reliant on sky and if their bubble bursts if the pub landlady wins her case against them in the euro court it mean curtains for a lot of clubs. Us included. That will probably go to clubs privately negotiating their own tv deals again making the rich richer. There's one person to blame for the bigger picture and that's Jean Marc Bosman
Andrew Gilbert
49   Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:02:08

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Yes Jamie, Bosman, you are right.

I read somewhere on another thread about the problems of teams negotiating their own rights but I can't for the life of me remember what the gist of it was. Maybe some UEFA laws or something.
David Thomas
50   Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:18:29

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Jamie 45,

I'm glad you are not involved with looking after my finances. That would have been a terrible idea.

So we should have spent £20 million that we did not have and put us even in more debt in the process without any guarantee that we would get through and recoup the money?

David Price
51   Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:39:12

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Two brothers and two sisters, all aged under 14, sit and chat on Christmas night about the gifts they received from their parents.
For once they are in agreement, the oldest boy says, ?We got fuck all again. I?m sick of mum and dad having no money to spend on computer games, trendy clothes, horse riding lessons, boxing lessons, piano lessons and private school tuition. Instead they spend money on food, clothes, mortgage, running a car, household bills and with no thought of us and what we?d like?.
They come up with a plan to stage a protest.
?What shall we do then?
?Start messing up our bedrooms?, one said.
?Nope, already done that,
?Moan at getting up for school?
?Nope already do that?
?Answer them back, show no respect?
?Nope, already do that?

Suddenly the Christmas fairy appears,
?Right you bunch of spoilt fuckers, if you did a bit more around the house, your mum would have enough energy to hold down a part time job, you older ones could get a paper round and earn some money for yourself and appreciate what you have around you, because when it?s gone, you can never get it back.?

The fairy starts to vanish.
?Wait, said the older boy, we?ll stick together and work harder, we realise, it?s not their fault our parents aren?t rich, but we?ll support them no matter what, please stay for a while longer?
?Sorry son, said the Christmas fairy, I?ve got 30,000 Evertonians to visit with the same problem, but to save time I?m logging on to Toffeeweb as Richard Dodd, see ya kid?
Gavin Ramejkis
52   Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:35:52

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Andrew #47 fair point I should have added a fourth bullet choice of silence and accept the status quo, your reply has pretty much stated that's your desire but the gist of the original article was about regime change and protest and the factors which act as enablers, the title does have the solemn word silence in it implying have fans and supporters arrived at their vital spark to do something, and if so what, or remain silent.
Jamie Connor
53   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:58:07

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David 50 I know what you mean but that's exactly the pessamistic view our board take. If we'd have spent £20m and still not beaten villareal then we probably wouldn't have had the money to buy fellaini a few years later on the never never. That's exactly my point that the boards ambition is not to strive but to make do. If we'd have won that one game that season would have taken on a different outlook I'm sure. Instead we dropped out of the CL, straight out of the lifeline of Uefa cup followed by early Lge cup exits and struggled all of that season. Getting into the CL would have boosted our profile even if it was only for the 6 group games. Look at spurs this season. I know there's a heavy media bias toward all things Arry but they got a sniff of CL and took the plunge. Their profile and standing has sky rocketed to the point where anyone would think they're the only team to break the top 4.
Ajay Gopal
54   Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:39:38

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Brilliant, David (51), brilliant ! At last some light hearted relief, from all this talk of revolution and blood letting !! Ha, ha...
Andy Crooks
55   Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:46:19

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Gavin, a good interesting article. Unfortunately, I cannot see any insiders turning on this regime. By that of course I mean David Moyes. This is as good as it gets for him. As safe a job as there is in football, an inflated salary, the respect and admiration of the press and of his peers. Why would he speak out ?
Also, where would he go? Seriously he is never going to manage Arsenal, Utd, City, Spurs or Chelsea nor a big club abroad. A few years ago I wouldn't have said that but his star is on the wane. A nostalgic return to Celtic is all that is left for him.
So, what gesture will shake BK to the core and demonstrate to his luvvy pals that he isn't universally loved? There have been some good ideas on this thread but, sadly I feel we have not fallen low enough. While there is growing dissent on this site I believe among Evertonians at large there still is support for the Kenwright ,Moyes regime. At this stage a failed protest might actually be damaging. A lingering painful death looms ahead.
How many more days like Saturday must we take? Quite a few more I fear.
Ray Said
56   Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:26:35

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The hard core Inter fans once turned up and spent the whole match with their backs to the pitch-the manager was gone the next week
James Hollister
57   Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:58:52

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Adam Bennett - Which is why later in the eufa and europa the moment we got a bigger team than the minnows we got, we got bitched slapped everywhere. Your argument is completely flawed.

If it's not Benfica tonking us 5, it's Sporting, in the first leg against Fiorentina how many examples do you need to know he is simply beyond his ability, which granted isn't very much 9 years on in the prem.

Why bother going into Europe when you know the moment you come up against a half decent side they will slaughter you..its just very embarrassing.
James Hollister
58   Posted 15/02/2011 at 19:20:41

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Andrew Gilbert - Perhaps the players are sick to the back teeth of this board. They play and they work hard and it's completely for nothing when they can't get the extra kick they need with a few more signings.

Maybe this season was their way of saying fu to this board? No one can play as bad as we have this season and not get relegated.

We get into Europe and we are promised funds to strengthen, to try and win the competition. It never materializes and the players get rightly ticked off with the same crap every single season.

Why should they put the effort in if the Board won't? Or if the man they see as their Manager is sided with said board?

Andy Riley
59   Posted 15/02/2011 at 19:50:57

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BK seems to be able to silence anyone who knows the inside track on what is going on. Why did Trevor Birch resign as Chief Executive after six weeks? There was an AGM (remember them before BK silenced the shareholders) after the Chris Samuelson and the Fortress Sports Fund fiasco where Keith Wyness was introduced as the new Chief Executive. The big news there was the break up of True Blue Holdings which could have brought fresh investment via Paul Gregg disposing of his significant holding to someone other than a BK ally but suddenly he sells out to Robert Earl. Keith Wyness then suddenly resigns and there are rumours he's going to spill the beans but he then mysteriously changes his mind. If only we could interest someone like Tom Bower to write an investigative book into the goings on.......then perhaps the fog might clear.
David Thomas
60   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:41:29

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Jamie,

I appreciate what you are saying, but the difference is Spurs were not going for it with money they did not have. They have the money so were not taking anywhere near as much of a risk by spending big. Had they not got through they would have been financially sound still, however, if we had gone for it and not gone through it would have been financially disastrous.
Charles King
61   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:19:04

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RS fans demonstrate because their psyche of being unassailable remains, even during decline they've won stuff.
By contrast we've had 40yrs of false dawns (except mk1 Kendal), we have a generation of fans accepting EPL survival as a prize in itself.
When we're in the bottom 3 only then will it kick off, till then we'll vent our collective spleen on the net.
Ian Edwards
62   Posted 15/02/2011 at 22:01:37

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There is no point giving money to Moyes for a new striker. Any forward he did buy would be ruined by his negative tactics. Look what he is doing to Beckford..... Look what he has done to Vaughan and Yakubu. Add them to the list of Beattie and Johnson.All ran into the ground and any confidence ebbed out of them being starved of service and deserted up front chasing long balls to the corner flag. Your turn Anichebe.
Roman Sidey
63   Posted 15/02/2011 at 22:06:15

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Laurie Hartley, I only read the first little bit of your post, and it is spot on! I said a while ago that outside the transfer windows the lack of funds excuse for Moyes is pointless as you just have to get on with it and play football.

For this reason, I honestly think that the only way to make the rest of the season slightly more positive is to make the one change that IS allowed. The manager.

I don't know who I would side with if there was a schism between Moyes and the board. Probably neither. I hate them both.

Someone said on a different post the other day that Moyes isn't the type to walk out mid season...

When did he start managing Everton and what was he doing before this job started?
Steve Smith
64   Posted 15/02/2011 at 23:19:01

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One "spark" was avoided during our game against Blackpool: defeat that day would of opened the floodgates imo. I could feel the discontent in the St End and I felt it was the same all around the stadium.

I do feel things are coming to a head, Moyes's recent comments are to me, part of the longest resignation speech in history. I fully expect Moyes to resign at the end of this season, if not before. I can't say I would be happy about that but I don't think I would be unhappy either.

Moyes is not blameless for our woes and neither are the players, take Anichibe's disgraceful behaviour against Bolton ? not the first time he's displayed that attitude, and yet Moyes has given him a 4-year contract!

I have never seen Moyes look so disinterested in what was happening on the pitch, or maybe he just had no solutions to what he was seeing? Either way, it was the look of a man who'd had enough, maybe he's seen the spark before the rest of us? Or maybe he is the spark?

Thomas Williams
65   Posted 16/02/2011 at 00:34:51

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"I would choose Moyes from 10 years ago when the man was passionate, honest and ambitious. Whatever has happened in the years since bears no resemblence to the stubborn, egotistical and cowardly man parading under his now aged skin".

Yes Chris, the man has been beaten down big time, I agree; the reason he who sits above, 9 years Moyes has been patiently building a decent squad, only for BK to break it up with, some say, incompetence, I say deliberate ruining.

If you or anyone had spent 9 years building anything and some buffoon ruined it, you would look like Moyes as well.

Stephen Kenny
66   Posted 16/02/2011 at 07:02:59

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Charles 61

What's your generation doing about it?
Mike Green
67   Posted 16/02/2011 at 07:39:02

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David Price - excellent post! Just playing devils advocate here though.

Just before the Christmas fairy goes to fly off through the window she turns and says,

'By the way... you seem to be all alone in the house tonight.... where are your Mum and Dad....?'

'Oh" reply the children in unison "they're away. They're in Hollywood.'
Ste Traverse
68   Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:18:03

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I've no sympathy for DM whatsoever. He lost my support when he publicly stated "I wouldn't swop Bill Kenwright for anyone else" after the derby win this season.

He evidently support's Kenwright's shitty regime so he's no right whinging about having no funds to spend.
Eugene Ruane
69   Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:43:38

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Ste Traverse - nail on head!

Andrew Laird
70   Posted 16/02/2011 at 14:07:56

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William Thomas@65 "If you or anyone had spent 9 years building anything and some buffoon ruined it, you would look like Moyes as well."

The only way that would be possible was if I had a slapped arse transplant onto my face.
David Israel
71   Posted 16/02/2011 at 23:13:35

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Allan # 22, aren't you Doug Ellis in disguise?;-)
David Israel
72   Posted 16/02/2011 at 23:26:03

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I won't beat about the bush, Gavin.

A spark is indeed needed ? even if one doesn't follow the precepts of Lev Bronstein, aka Trotsky ? but considering all the aggravation we've put up with for such a long time, I'm afraid only one thing would provide that spark, and that's relegation, which is something no one in his right mind would wish for. Barring that, I can't see "the people" revolting, unfortunately.
Richard Harris
73   Posted 17/02/2011 at 01:25:35

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After the dire performance at Bolton we need 30,000+ blues with molotov cocktails rather than just a spark.....
Gavin Ramejkis
74   Posted 17/02/2011 at 07:36:31

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Can I add one tiny point here, although a socialist the Trotsky quote is from the article not me. The original article inspired me to think about if an uprising against the current Chairman and board could happen at Everton and raise an article myself to test the waters of Toffeeweb.
Jamie Connor
75   Posted 17/02/2011 at 09:46:16

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Told you what to do. The next home game or the next televised home game, all of our season ticket holders need to just wait outside until 10 mins after kick off. Leaving BK sweating infront of TV cameras, getting the subject out there and then we'll go in and support the lads like never before. Knowing our luck, the police will delay kick-off though.
David Israel
76   Posted 17/02/2011 at 23:00:33

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No problem at all with quoting a Trotsky quotation, Gavin ? it's a free country!;-) We all know you weren't exactly urging the masses to storm the Winter Palace!

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