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The Bigger Picture

By Chris Ashton :  15/02/2011 :  Comments (61) :
This is something that a lot of people on here are going to disagree with but I believe I am not in the minority. The general view on this site seems to be that Kenwright has ruined our club, Moyes is ruining our team and some weeks, Neville, Hibbert and Osman are at fault for our performance. I am not here to argue any of them, opinions are opinions after all.

I think though, something that I have not seen brought up before in any argument might shed some light on why we are at the stage we are at. With that said, can some people here answer these questions?

1) At any point during Moyes being manager, has he had money to spend? Not money from sales but straight up ? here's £X million for players? If the answer is No then our situation now is no different to 9 years ago, only our expectations.

2) Has anybody taken into account the business changes in the past 9 years? What I mean is as a club our income/outgoings have not changed too much on a business side. The difference is right now, two Billionares, several rich owners and a few financially secure owners are in the league. For a club that has not changed much, despite its efforts (Kirkby), is there any wonder we are skint? Money talks and, if we have not got it to begin with, is there not a chance we will get left behind?

3) Do any of you think we are going to get investment or bought any time soon? I say this because we have no assets of real value, no chance of a new stadium, and ? in the current climate ? no real guarantee that we will be challenging for the top 4 along with as at least 7 other teams.

Plus we are Liverpool's neighbors, who are in fact the bigger 'brand' if you will, so where is the appeal as a company? Would you buy Bob's Burgers if it was next to a MacDonalds? Take into account that apart from the London clubs, all but Villa have been single city clubs that have been bought as a view to build upon its name. Hell, City was only bought just because it had Manchester in its name.

So I am very interested to hear what other people think in regards to my views as I'm not arguing with anybody else, I just think a little differently, see a bigger picture in all of this.

Reader Comments

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Michael Kenrick
1   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:32:03

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Nice try, Chris, but a few flaws give you away: firstly, there is no "general opinion" on this website ? there is a diversity of opinion, from Kenwright backers to Kenwright slaggers... Why don't you acknowledge that?

And the only people who blame Hibbert, who has not played for weeks, are trying sadly to be "funny". Most fans commenting on player performances blame the players who are ? surprise, surprise ? NOT performing! Strange, I know... but you are not the only one with this privileged view of "The Big Picture".

As for your supposed points, they all boil down to another set of excuses for Moyes and his increasingly poor performance as manager of Everton FC. Nothing less.

The fact is he should have done far far better with the resources he has had, at every stage of his Everton career, with the possible exception of the one and only season we "overperformed" ? 2004-05...

He was subsequently found out for gross inconsistency, which is now lurching toward gross incompetence and dereliction of duty. Despite being able to bring in some good players cheaply, he is a very poor manager when it comes to playing the game and none of this "Big Picture" apologist nonsense will get beyond that fact. That is why we are where we are.
Kieran Kinsella
2   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:39:03

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Chris

I am watching Pienaar right now playing CL football for Spurs. When we made the CL Moyes decided to buy James Beatte. How did that work out?

We followed him with Johnson. How did that work out?

Then Yak. How did that work out?

He has spent money ? it is just that now they are doing to him what they did to Kendall in 93-94. Moyes is at his worst when he has money to spend (Krøldrup, Wright, Yak, Beattie, Bily, Johnson etc) so the money argument does not wash with him.

Trevor Lynes
3   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:46:51

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You can add Heitinga to that list and Im not convinced that Fellaini has been worth what was paid for him...DM does better with lower league players who cost little as he has nothing to lose...
Oliver Molloy
4   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:49:31

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Hey Chris,
Yes, I would buy "Bobs Burgers"...every time...
Phil Martin
5   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:40:28

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The bigger picture...

the club was 2-3 class players (£20M?) from the big time.
We've since lost key players and been overtaken by more ambitious clubs.

We've sold our last remaining asset (Bellfield) and the proceeds have been sucked into our blackhole of a debt.

While I agree Moyes is a victim of his own relative success. And perhaps we're still only 5-6 players away from glory. But without immediate intervention we risk a full blown implosion. With our very own Nero fiddling to the tune of "impressive financial results".

We are undoubtedly on a slippery slope.

6-7 years of slow painstaking rebuilding is rapidly being undone by Kenwright's complacency.

He knew from day 1 that he didnt have the means to carry the club forwards. He told us his plan was to find a more appropiate owner. Yet 10 years on, we're told no one wants us.

Tell me

Were Man City a bigger brand?
Were Sunderland a bigger brand
Are Aston Villa based in London?
What about West Ham?
What about Birmingham?

Kunal Desai
6   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:52:11

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Chris - We may or may not get investment any time soon, however BK has had the best part of 10 years to attract investment. Are you seriously telling me he's done all he can in those 10 years to get investment in and all those deals i.e. the FSF, NTL et all rather coincidently all happen to breakdown and fall flat.

Football is always evolving, when Moyes came to Everton he found a system that worked well, however that system is now outdated and has been found out when it comes to his peers. The man is not forward thinking, like I said in football you have to change with the times and sadly he does not appear to change. He is not a manager who can identify weaknesses in the opposition and exploit them, there are no positive alternative approaches his tactics and his ability to totally change a game from a loosing position to a winning one. These are just some of the points.
He may well seek and opportunity elsewhere, but I guarantee you should he be given an opportunity at a club in the top 4 or 5 he will not last six months!!
Keith Pratt
7   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:53:35

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Kieran, Can't be arsed to address all of your points, as I'm also watching the footie and trying to keep up with the other scores to see if I can win some cash to afford the bargain pint of piss weak larger and a burger at Chelski. But I'm baffled how any Evertonian can slag off A J. He gave 110% every game, scored some great goals and we made a profit on him.
Steve Harris
8   Posted 15/02/2011 at 21:48:21

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Do me a favour! Why do we have to settle for mediocrity, this is Everton ? not Bolton or Wolves, we should have high expectations. Moyes has built a great squad and now Kenwright's incompetence is slowly unravelling all that good work before our eyes. Selling Pienaar was the catalyst and it's been downhill since then without a peep from Blue Bill.

Too many wasted opportunities, no investment and not even a sign of it in 11 years. The man has to go now before he ruins the club's chances of success for the foreseeable future. Get out now, Bill... please, no more excuses, do it!

Charles King
9   Posted 15/02/2011 at 21:37:06

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Chris
My comment on your points about the Moyes tenure is that outside of ManU, Chels and Arse (post The Emirates) that's the name of the game for most clubs - including the RS.

The bigger picture is a likely purchaser might recognise "potential" in us due to the latent fan base and history but any business person worthy of the name is gonna wait for the arse to fall out completely and pick the place up for buttons.
Relatively speaking that's what happened over the park.
Jay Harris
10   Posted 15/02/2011 at 22:26:28

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Chris you totally lost any sense of a sensible post when you described Kirkby as an "effort".

Kirkby was the biggest con trick in the history of EFC and was found out thankfully before it was too late.

However it did cost the club (not Kenwright and his fuck buddies) £4.5 million in "professional" fees!!!

Now it would only have taken a small amount of that wasted money to keep Pienaar or bring in a tidy replacement.

That is why fans are increasingly frustrated with Kenwright's reign of smoke and mirrors allied to incompetence.
Chris Ashton
11   Posted 15/02/2011 at 22:41:06

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I knew I would get this sort of response so let me defend myself a little bit!

Am I the only Everton fan who does NOT see us a worthy purchase? This is what I meant. We have no assets, no chance of a new stadium to increase revenue yet fans think we should be bought?

It has been said on here before that we are a cash black hole so therefore we aren't an attractive business. I am not accepting mediocrity at all, I always have and will want to see the best for the club. Is it not possible that we are just a casualty of modern football?

With all the money flowing in and out, someone has to be it, why not us? Is it because we are Everton? Even the greatest clubs fall once in a while!

I do believe that everyone who disagrees with what is happening at the club should raise your voice otherwise venting it on here will achieve nothing!

Believe it or not I do not support the board or the manager but the badge on the shirt, the players who play for it, and everything Everton FC stands for. I would still support Everton in League 2, as you would say blindly. Yet everyone who disagrees now who did not say a word about what they really think will have no grounds to complain then.

A lot of our culture is based on What If? scenarios I have noticed. What if we made it into the Champions League? What if we qualified for the European Cup? I can be guilty of it myself at times. I must admit it makes us sound like we are living in the past.

But I do believe we HAD our chance and blew it in 2005. Since then, the teams with money to spend have took over us and there may be no way back without money from somewhere. I am not debating Kenwright or the board or anything else like that. I am not supporting or attacking them, what I originally meant was I understand from my perspective at least, why we are where we are. As I stated I did not think you would all agree, but opinions are each to their own.

And Michael, yes, I was trying to be funny!

Lewis Barclay
12   Posted 15/02/2011 at 23:56:26

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Chris - your final point about Bobs Burgers doesn't stand up and you contradicted yourself completely when you mention Man City.

I'm tired of all the negative attitudes towards finding investment. It's like we are supplying the guys who are looking for it with excuses.

It seems simple to me ? decide whether we want to go with :

A traditional attitude to competing in the English top flight and bounce around mid PL table and occasionally in relegation battles for 5-10 years before inevitably being relegated but congratulated on how we stayed as a 'proud old English club'.

Or

Commit to a future that many people in and around the club won't like, involving re-housing and maybe investors / owners who know more about Basketbal than 'Soccer'. It might be a huge gamble to begin with but could see us return to challenging for a CL spot in the next five years.
Thomas Williams
13   Posted 16/02/2011 at 00:14:06

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Chris, here is the real Big Picture:

Has BK found an investor or buyer in 11 years?
Has BK botched 2 ground moves and sat by and let them attempt to build on our doorstep?
Where is the Fortress Sports Fund money?
Why did we not get Granada or NTL when they were throwing money around?
Have we sold every top player approached by other clubs under BK?
When was the last time we spent money outside of sales?
Why despite selling numerous assets, do we have loans?
What are those loans for?
Why under Moyes have we spent 1/8 compared to Spurs, 1/5 for Villa and Sunderland and 1/3 of what Birmingham have spent?
Why did Lerner approach Everton first but then go to Villa?
Why since BK came to the fore, have we got rid of the 2 people who were prepared to put money into the club: PJ and Gregg?
Why 23 years after breaking the transfer record, before Sky, does the board tell Moyes we cant afford a 6-month loan for a player?

People can blame Moyes all they like, he is working in impossible circumstances, like Smith before him, both are very good managers being destroyed by a man who appears to me, to be intent on destroying our club, and again imo it is not unintentional either.

James Stewart
14   Posted 16/02/2011 at 00:33:01

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Sometimes you are not given vast sums and lots of clubs sell to buy. It's called football management! Wheeling and dealing is all part of it. Moyes hasn't had transfer kitty's but he has had enough money to spend on the current squad which quite frankly is dire.
Roman Sidey
15   Posted 16/02/2011 at 00:26:13

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Phil, I'm in no way trying to bring you down, I think your post was good, but you ask questions and it's always nice on here to have them answered.

I can't comment on Villa or Birmingham as I just don't know enough about them. Man City, Sunderland and West Ham are fairly straight-forward though. City and Sunderland both have nice new stadiums, which is key in finding large scale investment/new owners. Also I think City's supporters may have been viewed as an asset by their owners. West Ham are a fairly traditional club and the biggest in the East End. Add to that the fact that their investment wasn't too long after London won the hosting rights for the 2012 Olympics, there was obviously a bit of a gamble that they could get the stadium which has obviously paid off.

What did Everton have? Remember in the Derby in 2006 when Beattie and Gerrard wore '08' instead of '8'? Huge potential there.
Andy Codling
16   Posted 16/02/2011 at 07:11:30

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Sand, Head, Bury
Anthony Hawkins
17   Posted 15/02/2011 at 22:44:01

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I've not read all the posts in great depth but I do agree we were somewhere in the region of 2 or 3 players away from making a massive impact.

I also believe that it is at this point that the board ran out of money. Remember the arguments about Donovan? In my mind a Donovan type player plus a quality striker and may be a right back was all we needed. Instead we got cheapies and loans.

Moyes is far from perfect however he can't spend money he hasn't got.
Chris Smith
18   Posted 16/02/2011 at 07:41:47

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Player for player we are no better than mid-table now, particularly when Saha is absent. We have a few players who are better than this (Baines, Arteta, Fellaini, Saha) but by and large we are average. The squad has weakened this season and we are going nowhere without new blood.
Jamie Sweet
19   Posted 16/02/2011 at 07:37:40

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How people can continue to defend the people currently running our club is beyond me. Look at the league table. Are we in a relegation battle? Yes. Do we want to get relegated? No.

Is the best way to battle against relegation to sell your current player of the season and loan out two strikers when your only real striker of note remaining is made of glass?

If you still think that those running our club are doing "a good job under the circumstances" or whatever bullshit excuse keeps on popping up, then you are an idiot.

I have long been a supporter of Moyes ? have always been a glass half-full kind of guy. But I'm sorry, enough is enough. We are fucking disgrace right now... January's transfers out ? none in ? was nothing short of criminal and to continue to support those responsible for our current situation is doing a great disservice to our once great football club.
Michael Brien
20   Posted 16/02/2011 at 07:32:49

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In my opinion, David Moyes is the most frustrating manager we have had at Everton since Gordon Lee. Remember him? We finished 3rd in 1977-78 and the future looked bright ? we had been leading scorers in the top division. Yet in a couple of years it was over ? thanks to a manager who had a good squad of players but didn't seem to know how to get the best out of them.

Fast forward to 2011 and Gordon Lee Mk 2 ? David Moyes: A good manager, a decent bloke ? but one who is so boring and predictable in his tactics. He doesn't seem to have a clue how to get the best out of a good squad of players. He has signed and got rid of several strikers. Have they all been bad players? I don't think so.

Ask yourself this ? do you really think Man United will be looking at David Moyes as a potential manager when Sir Alex retires? Is he ever linked with jobs at the likes of Chelsea? That surely speaks volumes.
Marc Williams
21   Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:45:47

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Chris Ashton... You ask would you buy Bob's burgers if it was next door to McDonalds ?

Well... you can't buy his business as it's NOT for sale. Apparently he's only looking for investment, so he can re-locate to a retail park in Warrington!

as to his burgers... well yes. You see Bob isn't just a Burger seller BUT a burger eater just like you & me... in fact he's one of us.
Rumour has it that when he was little, he used to eat them in 'The Boys Pen'... well his playpen anyway. Also, he once eat one with the 'Burger King' himself (Elvis) during a secret visit he made to Walton.
Jeff Magee
22   Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:48:04

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Michael #1 ? read the 20 or so responses again and tell me once more that there is no "general opinion" on TW.

Then read your own response and tell me that this is a balanced and reasoned response ? bearing in mind your position as TW exec editor and tell me that you do not have an agenda to constantly belittle any contributor who does not toe the TW party line.

Yes there is the odd (as in rare) contributor who does not blindly lay the blame for all EFC's woes at the respective door steps of BK or DM but these poor deluded souls are soon put in their place and reminded in no uncertain terms that the received wisdom at TW is that a monkey more interested in where his next banana is coming from could do better than DM and that BK spends all day beating off billionaire sheiks or Russian oligarchs who are fighting over the right to buy his clapped out clockwork train set with half the rolling stock either missing in action, crocked or sold off to maintain the working pieces.

TW is a brilliant fans web site but could be so much better if the people running it were more open to diverse opinions and encourage reasoned debate without belittling contributors who don't agree with them - I don't bother contributing as much as I would like to (no great loss and wimp I can hear you say) except for the odd snipe now and again because I know all I will get is 'head in the sand' 'apologist' and rants about the uselessness of both BK and DM with no allowance made for the, to the most part, unknown circumstances of both the aforementined pair. Rants which are based on 'facts' such as 'should have done far better' and 'he has been found out for gross inconsistancy...' ? as I was recently informed on TW 'facts are facts' and opinion is something different which I take should be interpreted on TW as 'facts' are any negative opinions on BK, TW and the latest scapegoat player and 'opinions' are any positive comments passed regarding the usual suspects ? 'facts' prove everything whilst 'opinions' can be dismissed as fantasy and therefore plainly incorrect.

I accept that there will (should) be diverse opinions/comments on the site and that in our current position the negatives are likely to outweigh the positive, however, I do not believe that the exec editor needs to be the first over the barricades as this sets the tone for the rest of thread ? I am not saying that you should not have an opinion (or quote your 'facts') but once in a while why not let the thread develop before jumping in with your 'rallying call' first in response?
Derek Thomas
23   Posted 16/02/2011 at 09:24:54

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Michael Kenrick, I'm not sure you can actually have ' gross' inconsistency.

Gross implies large, big (amounts) or maybe long, as in time.

Surely the word it's self; inconsistency, must stand alone, many times off and on, performance good some times and poor others.

Question for those of a Jesuitical frame of mind... can you be consistantly inconsistent?

My view is, if you are Everton, most certainly yes.
Trevor Lynes
24   Posted 16/02/2011 at 09:41:27

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If we get relegated, we will very possibly be even closer to administration. We will lose lots of money and I can remember when EFC were in the 2nd Division with gates less than 20,000 in a stadium that held over 70,000...

The money lost on Gosling, Pienaar going for a pitiful fee and 6 players out on loan means the board has had quite a large cash saving exercise by getting so many off the wage bill. Why ca'nt they see that staying in the Premier League is paramount to our survival as a decent club?

I don't agree with Chris that we are a mid-table club... we are a bottom of the league side on the form and fight shown against Bolton.

Andy Crooks
25   Posted 16/02/2011 at 09:50:18

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Jeff, during the summer I posted a comment that a regime change was due. I was accused of not being an Evertonian and, in fact, some abusive comments were removed. What has happened this season has changed the view of many supporters and this is being reflected on Toffeeweb.

The tide is turning against BK and DM and who can be surprised?

Tom Winek
26   Posted 16/02/2011 at 10:03:17

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Michael # 1 'The fact is he should have done far far better with the resources he has had, at every stage of his Everton career'

Really? Surely the complete opposite is true! I would've thought that with the resources available to him, (£3 per year net) at every stage of his Everton career he has overachieved.
Michael Coffey
27   Posted 16/02/2011 at 10:14:05

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My beef with Kenwright is not that he's not a billionaire, but that he's proved himself utterly incompetent in the areas that do not require cash"

- No overall strategy for the club that is shared with the fans

- The immortal "I'm good with money, not with numbers" remark at an AGM

- Wholly unimaginative and ineffective PR/marketing for the club (note: this is not the same as talking about yourself whenever a mic is handy)

- A customer service outfit that repeatedly fails to treat the fans with efficiency and common sense

- Disappearing whenever the going gets tough.
Colin Fitzpatrick
28   Posted 16/02/2011 at 10:58:49

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Chris,

I found myself disagreeing with you almost immediately but you're entitled to your opinion. For me, and many many others, there's no debate necessary, Bill Kenwright has ruined Everton Football Club. I'm not, as I'm often accused, anti-Kenwright ? I'm simply pro-Everton. You won't find me calling the chairman names but I see nothing wrong with pointing out how he treats the shareholders and fanbase like shite by misleading them and adopting policies which have been demonstrably detrimental to the wellbeing of the club I support.

I read with a certain amount of incredulity your assessment of the current state of play at Goodison and who's responsible. I'm not talking about apportioning blame I'm talking about identifying the root cause of the problem; you stated:

"What I mean is as a club our income/outgoings have not changed too much on a business side"

Yes, whose policy decisions has resulted in this position? There has been no "effort" as you say to change this, Kirkby wasn't even an effort; it would have resulted in little or no income increase in reality, it was a decision by the Chairman that proved he has no right to be a member of the board. Hall of Fame? Hall of Shame more like in my opinion.

"Would you buy Bob's Burgers if it was next to a McDonalds?" I can see you're a defeatist Chris. If I had Bob's Burgers I wouldn't sit there and do nothing, which is, in your analogy, what Everton's board has done. I'd perhaps re-brand Bob's as "Bob's Traditional Liverpool Sizzling Burgers" and offer table service, free coffee and a pole dancer and let's see how happy the oppositions meals are then!!

I agree with you when you say "we have no assets of real value, no chance of a new stadium." Again, whose policy decisions have resulted in this situation? Even the current CEO agreed two years ago that it was a strategy that couldn't succeed whilst the previous CEO walks around telling all and sundry how he was sacked by someone not even on the board!

Despite the best efforts to put spin on the obvious, in the words of a well known high street entrepreneur billionaire, "Everton? It's run like a fucking circus."
John Waugh
29   Posted 16/02/2011 at 12:30:14

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I could be very cynical and suggest that the current actions of the board in attempting to project the impression that they are acting in a proper manner as directors (cutting the wage bill, eliminating spend on additional squad etc) is a smokescreen for them knowing that an administration situation is inevitable. They would be able to work along any potential administrator having the "knowledge" that they had done their professional best for the club.

Administration / relegation, whilst devastating for the fans and the football side may from a commercial perspective be a positive move and allow for renegotiation of debts, possible renogotiation of player contracts for those who would stay and allow the Sky money to continue whilst the club started again.

Before anybody accuses me of wishing a doomsday scenario, I am not, and would not as a long term fan advocate or support this.

It could be in BK's mind though?

David Bridge
30   Posted 16/02/2011 at 12:49:16

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Chris, on your points:

Moyes is clueless in the transfer market, often missing out on players to lesser clubs (Naughton) and then blowing vast amounts of money (Bily) on shit untested players at an 11th hour panic. This is the same man who wanted to buy fucking 'Jô' for £18m before City got him.

Our income has significantly changed ? the PL money has increased by over £25m... where is this? Our attendances have remained high, we have earned money for European football, high value transfer fees (Rooney/Lescott) to name two. Our outcome has remained very low ? the money is going somewhere.

No assets? A huge fanbase, a ground we all agree could be renovated cheaper than purchasing a Kirkby concrete hellhole and top 4 achievable when we sack Moyes and bring in a new ambitious manager (Hughton/Gray). We are bigger than Sunderland, Leicester, Notts County ? the buyers there haven't been put off.

Liverpool have far greater debts, wage bill, not top 4 and ? believe it or not, Chris ? still live in the same shitty ground they have had for years but buyers were queuing up to buy them. City were shit when bought with only a stadium to brag about ? the word 'Manchester' did not make the deal.

Maybe we are BK's Burgers because Bill has given up and only opens 3 days a week whilst his mate Ronald actually invested in his dream and took a risk that appears to have paid off.
Thomas @ 13 agree completely.

COYB
Dean Peamum
31   Posted 16/02/2011 at 13:46:28

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Does anyone know if Bobs Burgers is really for sale? Will DM lose the bap and walk? Will the players relish a relegation scrap? Will BK (Burger King?) cash in his chips? If you don't care, does that mean you're a vegetarian? I think we should be told.
Phil Martin
32   Posted 16/02/2011 at 13:45:32

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Roman,

The problem I have is that people move the goalposts when defining what makes a club investible. Especially when excusing BK's track record of attracting investment.

The common reasons for us not being bought out are:

Overshadowed by a bigger neighbour ? Except Man City, West Ham, Birmingham City, all sucessfully had take overs.

Requiring a New Stadium ? while this is a factor, it isn't essential IF the price is right; consider Villa, West Ham, Birmingham City, Portsmouth, Wolves...

Not in London ? again, while maybe desirable, not in anyway essential; consider Villa, Sunderland, Birmingham City, RS, Portsmouth etc.

In fact, the only club in the PL not overshadowed by a bigger neighbour, in London, nor requiring a new ground, is Arsenal.

When you consider the approx £500M spent by the sheiks @ Man City, you can argue, well they didn't have to spend it on a stadium. But, for that cash, we could've bought and built a world class new stadium and still had big money for a few top players. Which ? 2-3 years ago ? is all we needed!

The ultimate reason we haven't been bought out is that we aren't for sale at the right price. As someone mentioned earlier, people in the know are probably just circling... waiting for the arse to fall off. As things stand, we can only sell off our last remaining high profile players and reduce our debt/wage bill, while doing so dramatically increasing our chances of relegation/mediocrity. It may take something severe like a relegation (or very near miss), Moyes to walk, or even administration to force the board to reduce their demands.

Marc Williams
33   Posted 16/02/2011 at 16:35:19

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Dean Peamum 31# ....Some good questions you're asking there fella... I can see you've woken up & smelt the onions.

I think the only thing we can say with any certainty is that we won't
Ketch-up with the big four this season !
Steve Smith
34   Posted 16/02/2011 at 17:42:00

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This thread seems very negative, strange that for a website with a 'diversity of opinion', maybe all of the positive posters are in la la land, where most people on this website seem to think they belong.
Steve Smith
35   Posted 16/02/2011 at 17:44:18

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Also it is funny given all of his obvious failings over the past 9 years that not one person came on here the day before the Blackburn game first game of the season saying Moyes Out. Were you all just willing to give him that extra 3 or 4 weeks on top of the 9 years to really make a proper judgement on him?
Michael Kenrick
36   Posted 16/02/2011 at 17:53:09

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Steve, I think you need to stand back from the keyboard, wipe your eyes a little bit, and try reading some different threads before coming out with this rather negative and extremely boring "let's blame ToffeeWeb" crap.

As for your second 'point', I'm almost speechless in astoundment that an Evertonian could post something like that in a blatant attempt to belittle and demean valid criticism of Moyes's reign. To so shamelessly ignore the vibe being felt by many last August (including yourself, if I recall), on the back of a pretty good second half of last season, combined with what on paper seemed to be a half-decent team that had competed well and did not appear to need reinforcing, plus the encouraging words of Moyes's fans, such as Sir Alex, ringing in the media... yet here are you, hindsight a plenty, taking pleasure in rubbing people's noses in the shit.

I hope you're proud of that accomplishment. I can just imagine the type of posts you would have come out with had anyone been so outspoken back then (although, to again recognize the diversity we represent, I think there were a few who did buck the trend and question the vibe).
Steve Smith
37   Posted 16/02/2011 at 18:08:11

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Michael, moan at me all you like about my opinions, they are after all just opinions - I am not saying I am right and take no pleasure in anything that is going on to do with our club right now.

But the 1st line of the 2nd paragraph of your response doesn't sit with me too well. Are you questioning my support for Everton - something that I know you are not happy with others on this site doing. The sentence may not directly say it, but there is a subtle undertone that makes me think you doubt my allegiance?

My point is valid, Toffeeweb has a reputation, rightly or wrongly, for being an overly pessimistic site. If players at Everton read this site, the negativity and doom and gloom (panic if you like) is bound to rub off on them.

If you question this, or dismiss this as complete rubbish, then just think about this fictional but transferrable example:

You (Michael Kenrick) work for company x, company x has an unofficial blog, you occasional visit said blog, and one day after a particular satisfying wednesday at work where you implemented a great new idea for your company (replace with had an outstanding training session for EFC player), you decide to log in to the blog to find out what is being said about you and your team. It's going to make you feel down isn't it?

I am (believe it or not) all for giving players stick when they haven't been good enough, (Anichebe was terrible at the weekend, and the other 10 were slightly better) but this has not been the case all season, so there should be some positives somewhere on the site.

Show me one thread that has the title 'Player x did really well today' (or something to that effect) examples could include Tottenham at home, Chelsea away, City away, Liverpool at home, and I will say fair enough. But the negatives, some of them which leave me speechless, ('The death of Everton FC' at 3-2 down to Blackpool a week and a half ago was one of my 'favourites') far outweight the positives, and even after a win, we are very quick to find something negative to fall back on as quickly as possible such as the financial state of the club.

As soon as Richard Dodd comes on here, or someone like myself, we are known as the unrealistic Moyes apologists. I am sorry, but at no stage have I ever said this current team could win the league, I just set my expectations to what is realistic for this club at this point in time, I thought we would push 4th this year and in no way are we meeting my expectations right now... but it isn't the death of the football club either.

Finally, I would also like to say that I think Toffeeweb is a fantastic site, and I applaud you for keeping it running so well, the sheer amount of comments and visitors is testiment to that.

I may sometimes post comments like the one above, because like you, some of the posters do wind me up, but for a different reason. However, I still come back on at least 3 separate occasions every day, keep up the good work.
Andy Crooks
38   Posted 16/02/2011 at 19:48:29

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Steve, if you were reading the site during the summer you will find that I called for Moyes AND Kenwright out. It went down pretty badly. In fact many on the site were predicting not only Champions league qualification but actually winning the premier league. When I tried to bring some reality to the debate I was roundly lambasted.

Firstly, we heard give it till the end of October, after all we always start slowly. Then it was judge by Christmas. Now some of those posters have disappeared. Believe me, I would love to be on here eating humble pie. We are in a serious relegation battle and some Evertonians cannot see it.

Mr Moyes is Bill Kenwright's poodle. Why on earth should the editor of this site be? If there is a feeling of negativity on ToffeeWeb it is new, understandable and about fucking time.

Jamie Tulacz
39   Posted 16/02/2011 at 20:03:24

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Steve (37)- hear hear agree completely, both on the negativity point, but also on the fact that this is a great site, and very addictive!

Phil (32) likewise agree completely, there are some sides who are far smaller than us and far worse off financially, yet somehow manage to get investment. Mysterious... something doesn't quite add up there.

David (30) for every poor signing you quote, Moyes has made plenty of good ones, eg Arteta (2m) Cahill (£1.5m) Pienaar (£2m) Baines £6m, Coleman £60k off the top of my head. Fellaini as well for me though not many of us rated him at the time. Name me one manager who hasn't made bad signings (eg his Lordship Ferguson:? Kleberson, Djemba, Veron, Forlan all terrible at United to name a few).

Difference is that Moyes has so little money to play with that he can't afford a bad signing or mistake and has to make every one count.
Thomas James
40   Posted 16/02/2011 at 21:44:57

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Paul #5 ? don't refer to spending money as a measurement of "ambition"; really it is not correct. They do not correlate. Not to mention being unsustainable.
Roman Sidey
41   Posted 16/02/2011 at 23:08:36

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Phil,
You definitely have hit the nail on the head. I was just pointing out some of the main attractions those clubs have/had, as opposed to what we offer a buyer ? fuck all.

I'm willing to go along with your idea too that the club isn't for sale at the right price, and everyone knows why. BK and co are trying to take care of themselves first, with no regard for the future of the club.

Steve Smith,
I wasn't a Toffeeweb contributer until quite recently, but I can assure you that I've been wanting Moyes out since probably this time last year, when it became obvious that the only talent he possess come match day is lifting his players for the big games. It's been said plenty of times, but beating United and Chelsea means fuck all when you can't beat Wolves, Stoke, West Ham, Sunderland, etc.

Also, last pre season should have tipped most people off about Moyes's ineptitude. Really poor friendlies, and not selling Pienaar were unacceptable.

I'll go on record and say that had Moyes sold Pienaar in the summer for maybe double what we got, and been able to bring in a fit EPL level striker ? not a world beater, even a journeyman would have done ? more than half of our draws this season would be wins, thus pumping us up to about 42-46 points, and nicely in 6th spot. Save me any hoo-ha about "Without Pienaar we might not have done very well," because we did fuck all with him this year, and he didn't do anything of note all year.
Michael Kenrick
42   Posted 16/02/2011 at 23:51:35

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Steve Smith (#37): "I take no pleasure in anything that is going on to do with our club right now." ? but that doesn't stop you from posting snidely comments (#34 & #35) that have no positive value other than to, as I said, demean other Evertonians?

"Are you questioning my support for Everton?" ? No, read it literally, I'm questioning such snidey negative behaviour, coming from an Evertonian, and targeting other fellow Evertonians, on an Everton website. I hope you're proud of that.

"If players at Everton read this site, the negativity and doom and gloom (panic if you like) is bound to rub off on them." ? This is a fan site and I don't think many players read it but, if they do, then I think it only right they should know how strongly some fans feel about their poor performances... and how good we feel when they play well.

"... this has not been the case all season, so there should be some positives somewhere on the site." ? Did you even bother to look at the site after the Blackpool game? Can you see were each reviewer gave Louis Saha a 10??? I think that's unprecedented. I challenge you to find negative comments made about Louis Saha for that performance on this "negative" website.

"Show me one thread that has the title 'Player x did really well today' (or something to that effect)" ? I'll do better than that and point to the numerous "positive" articles you've submitted... Oh wait a minute: what a surprise... you've never submitted anything original, nevermind "positive" ? not one single article or mailbag item this season! Glass houses, stones???

"I am sorry, but at no stage have I ever said this current team could win the league" ? Strange that, at the height of all the positive vibe you referred to last August, you say you were thinking of betting money on it (see 8 August 2010 mailbag comment by one Steve Smith). Hmmm....

Rather than knocking the site and its contributors, and wasting my time and energy at refuting this nonsense, why don't you submit something "positive" we can all be uplifted by?
Hakan Torlen
43   Posted 16/02/2011 at 23:54:20

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I have followed Everton closely since 1990. Why all this talk about money to spend? We have money to spend, hidden in salaries. Look at Arsenal's purchases during the years:

Robin van Persie £2.75M; Gael Clichy £0.25M; Fabregas FREE; Gilberto Silva £4.5M; Kolo Toure £0,25M;, Robert Pires £6M; Fredrik Ljungberg £3M.

In 1997, Arsenal bought Viera £3.5M, Petit £2.5M. Overmars £7M and later sold them for total £43,7M, while we bought the ageing Bilic £4,5M on high wages and got nothing back. Arsene is a genius!

Of course Arsenal have bought some key expensive purchases as well because of success they´ve earned more money.

My view of the situation is that Everton should sell their most prized assets at peak of their value, always. This will give the club transfer-income money, bring down the wage bill (eg, Arteta's ridiculous wages) and save the club money to buy young prospects from around the world, who themselves can (if they become good) deliver a good sell-on value in the future.

Like always in business, the salaries are the biggest outlay. Arteta would for exaple have given us £15M transfer sum + his salary £19.5M over 5 years, totalling aproximately £35M. He will not give us anywhere near that sort of money contributing on the field. Osman can play in his place, that's how bad Arteta´s performed this season.

Moyes's main objective when arriving was to bring age down, now he seems to have changed that view. Main objective should be to remain in the Premier League with 1/3 of the total wages we have today. That would save us money on salaries to invest in young prospects.

Now, not implementing this strategy, Landon Donovan should have been bought, at whatever cost, before this season. Then this season would have been totally different, I think!!

Martin Mason
44   Posted 17/02/2011 at 03:40:41

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How can Moyes do a lot better without buying new players? What could a new manager do without the money to buy players? What can Kenwright do without revenue and how do we expect to create more revenue?

I'll accept that Moyes should do better at times in the way that he uses his resources but he may also be doing brilliantly. That he isn't is subjectivity. Change at the moment needs nothing but pure luck to work, collapse and relegation are the overwhelming likely outcome.

Moyes is a decent man and I believe he may walk. Beware then, you will get what you want and it may not be what you wish for.

Phil Bellis
45   Posted 17/02/2011 at 09:36:17

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Martin ? Right now, I'm wishing and hoping and praying (song coming on?) for another 14 points ? that's the real, realistic reality of this wasted, shame-filled season.

Address the causes when we preserve our status (what a shameful legacy for Moyes and Kenwright if we don't).

Steve Smith
46   Posted 17/02/2011 at 09:40:15

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Michael, just a knee jerk reaction to your comment which has riled me this morning. My comments 34-35 may well have been snidy and added nothing positive, but if you removed every post on this site that had no value or meaning, you wouldn't be left with much.
Marc Williams
47   Posted 17/02/2011 at 09:44:16

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Martin Mason 44# says " Beware then,you will get what you want & it may not be what you wish for"

Martin, I hate it when people use this 'Non-argument' of "careful what you wish for as it may not be what you want"!?!.....to me it smacks of the last refuge of people who have run out of any excuses to defend the indefensible.

Like... oh shit... I can't think of any reasoned argument... so I'll just raise the 'Spector' of fear of the unknown instead.

It's the kind of purile crap that defenders of tyrants come out with when their people have had enough & demand change.... Oh don't get rid of that nice Mr Mubarak (etc) as you don't know what will come in his place & after all he's brought stability. Careful, when you wish for freedom/democracy as you don't know what you'll get, let's just sick with this dictator instead.

Do you see why this is such a facile argument, whatever the context?

As to Moyes, I felt he should have gone at the end of his last contract & I think the writing was on the wall, as to future problems, when he took so long to sign it. By the look on his face these days, I'm sure he regrets doing so. But sign he did, either for loyalty to players & chairman or for a big fat weekly sweetener/payoff. Either way I think he knew the constraints & now his limitations within them are there for all to see.

He's certainly fallen for the narrative his media friends propogate about him & increasingly seems to be losing touch with reality. In this he's no different from anyone else in the 'super rich circles of the football circus' but he's certainly no longer the man who first walked into Goodison & his useful time with us is over.

Good luck to him in his future careers though as he has put in a good shift at Everton & we can only thank him for that.

Dick Fearon
48   Posted 17/02/2011 at 09:30:59

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Money, or the lack of it, is no excuse for the utter crap dished up at Bolton. After that disgraceful performance, Moyes came the closest ever to admitting a personal failure. He said that perhaps he has not been hard enough on the players at training.

To say such a thing when we are caught up in a relegation dog fight makes me wonder what the hell goes on at Finch Farm. Is it some kind of play school or rest home Moyes is running?

Ste James
49   Posted 17/02/2011 at 10:51:56

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I just wanted to post this as I am now more concerned than ever about my beloveded Everton. My boss was at the Wigan v Bolton game last night and was talking to a mate who owns a company that deal with administration. Apparently they have been approached by Everton to deal with the matter. There would be no reason for either of them to make this up and both are very respected businessmen. I am sure you'll agree this is worrying to say the least.
Marc Williams
50   Posted 17/02/2011 at 10:58:55

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Ste James 49#.... I wouldn't take the word of anyone who was 'stoopid' enough to go & watch Wigan v Bolton.

It's the kind of fixture that given the choice of: watching it or eating your own shit... you'd be hard pressed to know which is worse!

Didn't he know that 'The Arse' were playin' Barca' on the TV? FFS fella, him & his mate were probably just making up stories to avoid dying of shame or boredom.
Ste James
51   Posted 17/02/2011 at 11:45:34

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Marc Williams: I have no doubt certain stories are flying round but I know both these people and to be honest I actually believe there is some truth to this.
Mike Gwyer
52   Posted 17/02/2011 at 12:01:03

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Ste no 49 & 51.

Not wanting to knock you down but a company going into administration is big business, you had better believe serious wonga will be made by the company performing the administration.

Also bear in mind that it would be a legal team representing Everton and NOT Everton who would pursue company liquidation or administration, and with Everton's worth around £100M I could only see a top flight outfit pursuing this business.

So if your boss or mate, or bosses mate are part of the above setup then keep us updated but seriously, I doubt any large bussiness would discuss pending contract's on the terraces of Wigan.
Anthony Hawkins
53   Posted 17/02/2011 at 12:58:23

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My beef with Kenwright as nothing to do directly with his wealth or there lack of. It is firmly positioned that

#1 BK is honest about his lack of money - probably the only thing he has been open and honest about

#2 Knowing he has no money, refuses to give up his position to enable a party who does have money to come in.

#3 Misleading in insisting he IS looking for something (investment/buyer) which he clearly isn't. bothered with.

#4 His business naivety: Kings Docks, Kirkby etc. Had anyone sensible been on the presenting board they would have known they stood no chance of being accepted and either halted or no PR presentation made. Both were highly speculative and only served to infuriate the fans.

The tag line "I'm one of you!" no longer washes with me. Kenwright is most definitely a business man who happens to have an affinity for Everton. Does he have Everton Football Club's best interests at heart ahead of his own? I see no examples that he does.

Should he have the clubs interest above his own? No, not really. But then he shouldn't give the impression he has. (I have no quotable statement which directly says that; however, his words read the same.)
Brian Baker
54   Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:02:34

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The root cause of the so-called 'problem', has been caused by a few rich owners corrupting and ruining the game with their obscene amount of money. If Abramovich, the Shieks at City, etc were not around with their money, where would the clubs in the EPL stand in terms of success??

Without all that money swilling around, Leeds & Portsmouth probably would not have gone bust, player wages would be at sensible levels, transfer fees would not have gone through the roof.

The EPL would be a much more level playing field, for most of the clubs.

Blame the billionaires, they have a lot to answer for.
Trevor Lynes
55   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:37:39

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We actually already had Baines and Jags as kids and let them go!! Both were developed elsewhere and we then BOUGHT them!!

I also agree that DM does far better when he has little money to spend as he has nothing to lose...

Brian Waring
56   Posted 17/02/2011 at 20:31:46

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Shame we haven't got anyone in charge with any cash, Brian, at least we could have had someone to blame.
Roman Sidey
57   Posted 18/02/2011 at 00:34:07

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Someone asked earlier what another manager could do with the same resources as what Moyes has now. Is this a genuine question or a statement? Anyone who thinks that different managers couldn't do better with the same resources either has never coached even at the lowest level, or doesn't actually pay much attention to football at all.
Martin Mason
58   Posted 18/02/2011 at 02:37:03

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Mark@47 I believe it to be a very valid argument. You do not change anything unless you can clearly identify the problem and then a new regime that will be certain to solve the problem. It's the idea of change and hope for the best, that is purile and football history is littered with train wrecks resulting from ill-judged change
Marc Williams
59   Posted 18/02/2011 at 09:00:30

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Martin... (It's Marc ? at least do me the courtesy of spelling my name right ... eh?)...... Don't worry you'll see a spectacular train wreck at Everton this summer as the drivers of our club are heading full speed for the buffers!
Stephen Kenny
60   Posted 18/02/2011 at 10:11:44

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Martin,

Surely if the train is crashing anyway then a change of driver would do no more harm? Especially if the previous driver was to blame in the first place.
Anthony Hawkins
61   Posted 18/02/2011 at 12:47:56

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My fear is that, even if we avoid relegation this season, a summer of inactivity will spell almost certain relegation next season.

Everton have no money and no additional revenue streams to bring in the required funds. There are three solutions

1. The board take a cut in shareholdings to allow, for instance, a bank to buy in

2. Sell the whole club to someone with the money

3. Float the company.

#3 worked well for a number of clubs and could still work at Everton. I'd buy shares!!!

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