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Stop Blaming David Moyes

By Thomas Williams :  03/03/2011 :  Comments (120) :
I haven't wrote many articles on here but I feel now is the time to wake people up again. I penned an article partially defending Peter Johnson after the 6-1 Arsenal game, which, as I was expecting, got me a fair amount of flak.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but too much is knee jerk and reactionary these days. We have never recovered from the loss of European football from 1985, losing our best team, but that doesn't excuse the longevity of the decline.

After the stability of the Moores and Carter chairmanships, we appointed a Kirkby doctor, for fuck's sake, disasterous, around the time Premier League was started, he had no clue.

PJ came in and wanted to change many things not disclosed, I am amazed he has never defended himself to this day, there were things going on at Everton then, that would astonish most fans, mainly to do with the board and the executive suites, he nearly quit before he took over due to the board railroading proposals he set out before he took over.

PJ, whatever you think about him is your prerogative, but he had what the current board lack, balls and a vision for the club, he was the first chairman to come up with the academy idea, without that, we would have folded 7-8 years ago; it was his idea about Stanley Park as well, enquired twice, there are those that deny this, but it is a fact.

The Echo fed the public a pile of shite and PJ was turfed out and in came Mr Kenwright, bearing in mind he was part of the board during Marsh's reign and PJ's, BK promised the masses everything and has delivered nothing.

We had a good manager in Walter Smith, again many on here will not agree, he was reduced to selling all our main players and we ended up with 6 centre halves playing in one team, WS has gone back to Scotland and broke Celtics stranglehold almost immediately... shit league only 2 teams you say, yet the same man took Rangers to a European Final 2 years ago, have we been near one under BK?

So, everyone blamed WS, we played boring stuff blah blah, what did you expect when the fucking chairman sold all our best players!!

Now, after Moyes performs miracles for 5-6 seasons, in first stabilising us, second reducing the average age of the squad, third having us compete near the top end, fourth giving us some pride back, and what does BK do? Close the fucking check book again, like he did to Walter, consequently our better players move on, and the better players we have left, become disillusioned.

This is what you are seeing now, most of the players we have now have pulled their tripe out, only to watch the likes of Stoke, Bolton, Birmingham and Sunderland etc outspend us. It's pathetic and disheartening, this is where Moyes is at now, he has pulled everything out of the players, and he and the players feel they have had enough of the bullshit emanating from the board.

History has repeated itself; I always take pride in the fact that most Everton fans are fairly knowledgeable and can see the bigger picture... at the moment, I am not so sure, it takes a lot to admit when you are wrong about something, continuing to not see that wrong is damaging.

The fans made a mistake in forcing out PJ and welcoming with open arms the charlatan that is Bill Kenwright ? accept that you are wrong and instead of blaming Moyes, Hibbert, Osman and Anichebe, look to yourselves and see within you who the real problem is, BK and the rest of the shithouse board for saying and doing nothing.

Do you really think Moyes is that bad a manager he would want to keep in his squad and team, players like Anichebe, Hibbert, Osman, any of our strikers for various reasons? No, he wouldn't, but what option has he got? I'm sure he would like to sell a few of the under performers, but again, what chance has he got when he knows if he sells blah blah, he's not getting any replacements, it's pathetic.

Blame Walter and blame Moyes all you like... with the current board, Mourinho and Sir Alex would both fail as well, that is the predicament we are in. Stand up and turn, not on the players or Moyes, but on the board ? until we do so, our club is doomed.

Reader Comments

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James Carroll
1   Posted 03/03/2011 at 14:35:04

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Agree. At least Johnson actually had some money...
Marc Williams
2   Posted 03/03/2011 at 14:47:17

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Thomas... I'd agree with you if he hadn't covered for the failings of this board over the years. Bill & Davey are a double act, each covering the other ones back. Moyes is very well paid for what he does & consequently doesn't rock the boat. In return, by keeping us going on a shoestring & indeed overperforming for most seasons, the board have been able to carry on in control without investment. Our chairman refers to Moyes as his biggest friend in football & over his tenure our manager has consistently praised him as an individual & chairman.

Even after the shameful farce in January, Moyes remained silent. After a couple of wins with the less well informed fans once more distracted, he's "relieved to have the focus on the football again". Instead of what? Scrutiny of chairman, board & accounts probably, that was finally taking place. I think he was quoted in the Sunday Telegraph saying something like "A win covers a multitude of sins..." too right David, but what sins might those be eh?

I like David Moyes, think he did a great job for us during his first contract & has put in a good shift with us. But, and this is a BIG 'BUT', too often he has willingly been the fig leaf this charlatan chairman has hidden behind.
Damien Kennedy
3   Posted 03/03/2011 at 15:13:08

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empty post
Tommy Coleman
4   Posted 03/03/2011 at 15:02:44

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I agree with you in the sense that we need to do something about the board, we are such a badly run club.

But Moyes has to take resposiblilty for his part also. Negative tactics, bad subs, bad expensive signings, in fact, Moyes could replace the likes of (jobs for life) Osman and Hibbert if he didn't blow so much money on the Yak, Billy, Felliani, all vastly over priced players.

Moyes supporters can't blame lack of money for getting beat by Reading, they have far less resources than us.

Finally, I think fans like yourself have also contributed to our demise, not in regards to the board, but by constanly telling Moyes what a great manager he is; he's a good manager, yes, but not good enough for Everton, and he's certainly no Mourinho, not even close.
Damien Kennedy
5   Posted 03/03/2011 at 15:13:44

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Great article... terrible response, however, Marc! Would you rather DM showed no loyalty to his Chairman? Moyes is a credit to his profession.

In light of the crap he has to put up with from his board in not giving him finances, forcing him to sell players he has no desire to! In public he could be vocal, arrogant, disgrace the club by belittling things behind the scenes! No, the man shows great loyalty and commitment despite everything.

Some people are so driven by the need to blame someone they forget the obvious! Over 5/6 years we have enjoyed European nights again, and won a great many of them! Been to Wembley for the first time in 15 years!! Finished just behind clubs with 10 times plus the financial muscle we have!

I have backed BK for a long time... Why? Because like every Evertonian he desperately wants success for us but, Bill, as much as you are a nice guy, you are dragging us down now!!

Peter Fearon
6   Posted 03/03/2011 at 14:56:49

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This is some of the most ludicrous revisionist nonsense I have ever read on this site or indeed on any other comparable medium. It's ridiculous to claim that Smith shouldn't have been fired, Johnson shouldn't have been moved out, Kenwright ? who kept Smith in his job ? should not have become Chairman and Moyes should never have been hired (because Smith should still be manager) yet he should not be criticized for his miraculous achievements ? all mutually contradictory opinions.

Look at the facts. It was Johnson who enforced Ferguson's sale which most observers felt was wrong, both in a football sense and in his ethical dealings with the manager, and Johnson who forced out the last manager to win a trophy, Joe Royle. Walter Smith was way out of his depth in the Premier League, a fact evinced by the number of Premier League clubs lining up to hire him after he was fired... None. The only miracle was that we somehow avoided relegation under his disastrous tenure. He was statistically and objectively the worst manager in Everton's history.

Kenwright saved Everton from bankruptcy, risking his personal wealth to do so. He took too long to fire Smith and he is taking too long to fire Moyes. It is close to insane to claim that Moyes is prevented from developing a winning team by lack of financial resources when, just a few months ago, many of the same people making that claim were predicting the team he has built without much resources was capable of challenging for the Champions League, thus confirming his talent as a manager, which was an opinion almost universally held last August.

The plain reality is that the manager is ultimately held responsible for the performance of the team he has built. If we were winning games every week, he would surely get the credit. His team has performed very poorly two seasons in a row. If he isn't going to be held accountable, who is? The man who pays his wages? You may as well blame the fans or the groundskeepers. Most managers have to work within a strict and limiting budget. All but four or five have to sell to buy or risk bankruptcy. There is no legitimate defense of Moyes's performance this season. You either accept it and hope for better or look for someone with fresher ideas and perspective. I would prefer the latter.

Tommy Coleman
7   Posted 03/03/2011 at 15:34:52

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See - Damien Kennedy

Supporters like him accepting 2nd best is part reason why we don't move forward.

For fans like him reaching Wembley is "success", finishing 4th "success".

Last time I checked, you don't get winners medals for those and unfortunetely there are a few too many fans like him who think the same.
Eric Myles
8   Posted 03/03/2011 at 15:41:18

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Marc #2, I see it the opposite way, by saying those things, Moyes IS highlighting there are problems that he can't speak frankly about.
Chris Matheson
9   Posted 03/03/2011 at 16:20:10

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Peter is right at No. 6 - this is revisionist nonsense, although I don't like to be impolite.

There should not be a choice between Johnson and Kenwright. Both were awful. Chuck in "Sir" Philip Carter and you can see we've been particularly badly served over the last 20 years. Wasn't there someone else as well, Dr Somebody-Or-Other?

Football has moved on and changed, our board has not.

Incidentally I agree with the title of the piece and the main thrust. He infuriates me with his 4-5-1 and his refusal to make changes to change games, but I remain pro-Moyes and very very firmly anti-Kenwright.

WIthout Moyes our problems would stil be there. Without Kenwright we would have a chance of moving forward.
Charles King
10   Posted 03/03/2011 at 16:27:10

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Quite a bizarre article, I had to read it twice.
James Hollister
11   Posted 03/03/2011 at 16:35:12

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Yes, I agree, let's not blame a manager, who is so bad at his job, he'd have been fired elsewhere much sooner.

Let's not blame him for playing the single worst Premier League player in history over others in Anichebe.

He has lost the players coz he is a cock, end of.
Jimmy Hacking
12   Posted 03/03/2011 at 16:45:16

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The problem with these argument of "Even Alex Ferguson and Mourinho would fail at Everton" is that it's bollocks. They'd do a lot better than Moyes would, because they are great managers while Moyes is only a good one.

If you want concrete proof, how about the small matter of SAF turning Aberdeen into the best team in Scotland? No bloody mean feat.
Eugene Ruane
13   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:01:36

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Peter, spot on.

Thomas, stop NOT blaming Moyes.
John Daley
14   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:00:29

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"Do you really think Moyes is that bad a manager he would want to keep in his squad and team, players like Anichebe, Hibbert, Osman..."

Considering he said a couple of days ago that, as long as he remains in charge, Hibbert and Osman can stay at Everton for as long as they like, then yes.
Peter Laing
15   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:00:53

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If we face facts, we have been navel-gazing for the past 25 years when it comes to boardroom leadership. Most of our songs concern the other shower across the Park, their own demise over the past 20 or so years has served to ease the pain regarding our own shortcomings and failings. I said to a mate, if that lot were still top of the pile, we would be witnessing the knives being drawn circa 1983 before Kendall getting his act together.

Years of neglect has reduced our once great Club to a shambles, most fans are resigned to this plight and the majority no longer have either the heart or stomach for the fight.

Jay Harris
16   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:16:26

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Thomas I would have agreed totally with you 2 years ago but since then the clamp has been put on buying players Moyes has spat his dummy out about.

IMO, it is Moyes's demeanour and team selection that is causing the current problems although even if rectified that would still only return us to upper mid-table.

Your point about Kenwright is well made as he still seems able to pull the wool over some supporters' eyes, despite the fact that he has presided over a period of unheard of TV income accompanied by record losses and debt whilst constantly telling the lies of the century.

I do agree also that PJ took some undeserved stick especially as he was the only recent director to spend money on GP (the Park End stand) but he did not back Joe Royle and bottled it when the going got tough financially.
Tony J Williams
17   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:24:40

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"Supporters like him accepting 2nd best is part reason why we don't move forward" - No it's not.

Thomas, Moyes has to take some of the blame too, his tactics can be criticised, his substitutions etc. Yes, he also gets some right but he also gets some wrong and can rightly be criticised for them.

The players need a boot up the arse too and don't start me on the money thing because I agree completely. Laughable that most of the Championship sides outspent us this year too.
Tony J Williams
18   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:39:00

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Also, shouting about lack of money and the board didn't help the Fat Spanish Waiter or O'Neill, did it?
John Vanderwerff
19   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:38:06

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Moyes has had money ? why we keep saying he hasn't is beyond me. Bought some good and some bad. The players are his players ? not dregs left over from previous administrations.

As for Peter Johnson, I have no idea but if you're going to make those kind of statements, how can we corroborate them? I have no idea about what BK is up to ? it's all about speculation. What we need are hard facts but as usual we, as fans, are always the last to know.

Chris Hannon
20   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:33:59

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Tommy Coleman! Fellaini over priced? He's worth at least £20 million now! And along with Baines is and has been our best player! Yakubu was £11.35 million, that's not expensive for a striker who scored as often as he did when he was fit! The signings he has made for buttons and are worth at least treble what they where signed for! Huge profits on Lescott, Johnson, Neill, Bent, and many more make up for Bily and Krøldrup!
James Cadwaladr
21   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:52:41

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You are in fact PJ aren't you!
Eugene Ruane
22   Posted 03/03/2011 at 17:52:57

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Tommy Coleman (4 and 7) - could not agree more.

"Supporters like him accepting 2nd best is part reason why we don't move forward" - yes it is.
Phil Bellis
23   Posted 03/03/2011 at 18:06:21

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And Damien, some of us have enjoyed actually winning Titles and Cup Finals and remember when Wembley was an annual day out or two.
Dennis Stevens
24   Posted 03/03/2011 at 18:08:47

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I don't really think it's relevant or necessary to bother comparing the current Board with previous regimes. The simple fact is that the current incumbents are a dead weight 'round the neck of this once great club and there will be no real progress until wholesale changes take place on the Board room.

Moyes seems to be less effective as a manager the better the quality of player he has to work with ? so the way the club is going we should see him at his best as the better players are sold off to keep the wolves from the door! I'd like him to call it a day and hand over to somebody fresh. However, Moyes is not the biggest problem we have and arguably it would make more sense to replace him when and if we have a new Board in place.
Ray Said
25   Posted 03/03/2011 at 18:15:36

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Some of us remember when the club has sacked managers who hadn't won anything,

We now have some supporters who think we should have a lap of honour for finishing top 10.
Andy Crooks
26   Posted 03/03/2011 at 18:31:21

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Thomas, I agree 100% on blaming the board. However, David Moyes supports the board 100%. He is paid well enough to do so.
Mark Stone
27   Posted 03/03/2011 at 18:40:19

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"We now have some supporters who think we should have a lap of honour for finishing top 10."

I don't think there are any supporters who feel that way, Ray. If I'm wrong, please step up. Having said that, its funny how expectations change. Back in the 90s there actually were, on occasion, laps of honour for finishing 17th!
Jim Burns
28   Posted 03/03/2011 at 18:46:20

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I agree with Peter @6, Charles @10 and others.......I too will try not to be impolite about this article ? it correctly points out that we are all, as Evertonians, entitled to our opinions ? so here's mine... there is that much bollocks in it I wouldn't know where to start.

By the way, Thomas, if you really are PJ, can I ask why you sold big Dunc in the most despicable manner possible ? literally behind the Manager's back while he was sat in the dugout that night?

What utter nonsense.
Alan Ross
29   Posted 03/03/2011 at 19:08:24

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Mark (25)
I would imagine that's when it all started. Acceptance of mediocrity.
Dave Wilson
30   Posted 03/03/2011 at 19:13:04

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So Moyes is to blame because he supports the board...

Andy Crooks, you are a great one for asking questions and disappearing when you're asked one back.Ccan you explain that one to me?


The guy has a different opinion to you, so he`s part of the problem, so if he changes his mind ? how can he not be swayed by that argument - and comes on here and posts "Moyes out" will that do the trick ?

And once he starts to follow your example, what can he expect to be doing in order to "move us forward"?
Joe McMahon
31   Posted 03/03/2011 at 19:35:28

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Mark - As our last game of the season is at home, I'm hoping there isn't a lap of honour if we get relegated?
Michael Parkes
32   Posted 03/03/2011 at 19:35:34

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So it was Carson Yeung and not Alex McLeish who won a cup last week then?
Andy Crooks
33   Posted 03/03/2011 at 19:49:06

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Ok Dave, I won't disappear. David Moyes has been totally loyal to Bill Kenwright. I have reservations about his ability as a coach but no one on this site could possibly claim that he has been adequately funded. Why has he not tried to manipulate the board to squeeze out some help? Most managers do. He built himself a reputation as a fine young coach who could operate on a shoestring. His reputation is now in decline and he remains silent. I suggest that he is in a well paid comfort zone and that is sad .
Tom Winek
34   Posted 03/03/2011 at 19:47:39

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This nonsense that Moyes should speak out against the chairman and the board is ridiculous. How many managers do this? How many non-football managers (you and me), when they have major issues with their employers, speak out to anyone other than the person/company they have the issue with? Unless you want to lose your job of course you don't. I think Moyes made it very clear in January when asked about transfers how he felt. He didn't need to tell us what he thought of his paymasters; it was in his voice.

The club's rotten and there's nothing Moyes can do about it with what will increasingly become a team of championship quality players that he has had to buy because we cannot afford PL ones.
Paul Henshaw
35   Posted 03/03/2011 at 20:05:17

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Yep.. it was Peter Johnson who played 4-6-0 against the mighty West Ham with his "best ever squad" (*DM Aug 2010). If youre gonna have a pop at the hamper-owning kopite then change your title son....
Tony Cheek
36   Posted 03/03/2011 at 19:55:04

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I blame Moyes and feel that I have every right to. We ALL feel sorry that he is economically handcuffed. But at some point you just have to get on with it and use what you have got in the best possible way. He has made so many balls-ups this season, it is not true.

Bad team selection, bad tactics, bad substitutions. He must go ? along with Kenwright ? ASAP!

The only thing we have got left to cheer our team on for is getting in front of Liverpool... but with Moyes at the helm, I very much doubt it!!

Andy Crooks
37   Posted 03/03/2011 at 20:15:19

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Tom, David Moyes CAN speak out against the board. They can't afford to pay him off, he keeps them safe from the hordes... and I just wish he'd use his strong position.
Dave Wilson
38   Posted 03/03/2011 at 20:07:26

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When I asked what you expected from a would-be Moyes replacement, you dodged the question.

Would you for instance expect Moyes`s successor, after accepting the job, to then go to the press and moan like fuck that there is no money? Would you expect this new manager you desperately want to go to the press and call the board a bunch of tossers?

Moyes was offered a very good contract by Everton, but he took a long time to accept, he knew he would have to sell to buy, he knew there was no money, I knew there was no money. You knew there was no money, Kenwright told us there was no money, the dogs in the street knew there was no money...

Would you not feel your intelligence was being insulted if Moyes came out and said "Guess what boys? I`ve been stitched ? there`s no fucken money"?
James I'Anson
39   Posted 03/03/2011 at 20:15:42

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Why did Bill Kenwright try to buy Everton at the same time as Peter Johnson?

If I remember correctly, Johnson was in the Echo saying that we would have £10M to spend on players if he took over. Bill also came out and said he'd match it, only for Peter Johnson to double this figure to £20M. The resulting poll in the Echo was understandably in Johnson's favour.

Bearing in mind that this was before Johnson had done anything wrong, why the fuck did Bill try to buy the club, and where was the cash coming from?

James Brand
40   Posted 03/03/2011 at 20:50:39

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Finally!!! Finally!!! Thank you for someone having a little bit of common sense! I pretty much 100% whole-heartedly agree...

The PJ takeover happened when I was about 12 (season ticket holder all my life) so I don't really remember all the politics, though one thing I do remember (though correct me if I'm wrong) Kenwrong scratched around for the cash and, even at a tender age of 12, I thought "if this guy has to scratch around for the cash to buy the club, where's his money going to come from when we need players!!!"

I for one am a Moyes-fan... there you have it... neck firmly on the chopping board... shoot me down if you wish, but I think the Kenwright/Moyes double act need to be broken up. I'd keep Moyes (for now) to see what he could do with a bit of cash...

I like him, and one thing you have to remember is that poor sods like me grew with relegation battles as the norm during the 90's.

Yes he has his faults, and my Lord he's negative but I'd swap him for no one (barring the obvious!)

There's a large contingent on this site that want them both gone, and maybe that's true...but I'd start with Kenwright and give Moyes (be honest, you people who want his head on a platter used to call him the Moyesiah...) a stay of execution...

We have massive problems at board level, but on the pitch, let's be honest, if you're strikers (who have proven goalscoring records) couldn't hit a cow's backside etc, that's not down to motivation, preparation or the managers fault... that's simple.... your strikers are mis-firing. (Drogba, Torres, Anelka, Rooney - biggest names in football all have the same periods... we just don't have the depth these other teams have to bring someone else in.) That's a financial backing/boardroom problem ? not the manager's!
Stephen W Leary Jnr
41   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:15:30

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9 years, no trophies: Shrewsbury, Oldham, Brentford, Reading, Dinamo Bucharest, Sporting Lisbon. I think he's had his time... he has done a good job coming in and turning us back into European challengers but we're now going backwards. Yes, Kenwright and his board buddies have not helped whatsoever... but do they pick the team, the same negative tripe, week-in and week-out?

Most sides know what to expect of Everton; Moyes has no clue as to how to change a game... When things aren't going well his substitutions are bizzare; most games his constant love affiliation with Osman and Hibbert and Victor Anichebe is again bizzare. It's all good and well them being Evertonians or whatever but so am I and I'm not good enough, just like they aren't. We need a fresh change all over from the top to bottom Moyes will always be a good manager but never a great manger; tactically in Europe he's failed miserably too... remember Sporting?

We need a new owner and a new fresh attacking manager: Coyle or Jol would do me; if not, we will continue to go backwards and with the likes of £10M wasted on a Bily, would you trust Moyes with proper cash? COYB!!
Martin Handley
42   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:17:40

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Please, please, please stop making excuses for Moyes.

When he first came to us, he was like a breath of fresh air after the Walter Smith experience. Not only did we play decent football, we scored a fair few goals, and if my memory serves me rightly we played 4-4-3 a lot of the time and that was with players like Mark Pembridge, Alexandersson and one or two other duffers whose names escape me in the side.

He had a spark, life and passion but somewhere along the way he's turned into Walter Smith ? a defensive, negative manager with only one thought in his mind: not to get beat.

By his own admission, he's assembled what he thinks is the best squad Everton have had in 20 years... and what's he done with it? ? played the most negative boring lifeless football you could imagine.

He looks out of ideas and I get the feeling the players no longer believe in him. He's gone stale, looks bored/fed-up most of the time.... so now is the time for change, both at board and managerial levels. My belief is that both will change in the close season... and you know what they say ? a new broom sweeps clean!

Stephen Leary
43   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:47:58

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Can't agree more with you, Martin, mate. I hope this summer that does happen it has too. COYB!!
David Bridge
44   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:51:25

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Bill Kenwright is Peter Johnson ? there is no difference. Both have fuck all money, both have ruined our Club over a period of time, both have sold off our best players to clear debts and failed to fund transfers.

As for Damien (#5) enjoyed European cup nights ? really, we failed miserably in Europe as Moyes was really found out. And as for Wembley... get real, will you ? we were shit.
David Mathieson
45   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:58:57

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Just looked on The Echo website and Moyes has not won at Newcastle away in the Premier League... although he has won there while playing for pens in the League Cup. I was there, not a good omen for the weekend... surely we cannot blame him for that record though, has to be that Bill Kenwright's fault, yea all his.
Declan Burke
46   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:54:49

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Sorry, Martin (#40). I am afraid that, in my humble opinion, come the summer, nothing will change. All those tossers will go to the sun, put on the suntan oil, come back and serve the same shite that we have been getting for the last few seasons.

Bill will tell us that he and our useless directors can't find a buyer. Moyes will be linked with every Tom, Dick or Harry that is available on a free. But guess what: no-one will be signed as we can't afford their wages. To top it all, we the fans will continue to spend our hard-earned cash supporting our club because we are the only people that really care.

Peter Fearon
47   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:58:37

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James Brand, there's no need to speculate about what David Moyes could do if he had a bit of money. The answer is: Yakubu, Bilyaletdinov, Fellaini, Heitinga, Beattie. That adds up to about £45 Million, plus what we pay or paid them.

I accept that Fellaini has had some good games... but when you balance those against the ones where he has been clumsy, all elbows and hair, when he has been sent off, his time suspended, or out through injury, frankly I'm not impressed.

As for the others, I don't think there's much of an argument that we paid over the odds for players who are just not equipped to meet the challenge. I can think of other managers who could do more with that kind of money.

So much for not having had resources to succeed. Of course, we mustn't blame him! He's only the manager!

Michael Coville
48   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:35:48

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Everton Football Club as a business is a poor one. Expenses are higher than revenue. To change that, we have to either get an owner with deep pockets or increase the revenue or both. Kenwright has done nothing to achieve either goal. He made a massive mistake with the Kings Dock and he has not managed to bring in a new owner with money to spend.

Moyes has achieved more than most managers given the circumstances and bought some excellent players from lower divisions BUT, when he has had money to spend, he has wasted much of it on players like the Russian and Heitinga when it was clear we needed a right winger and a proven goalscorer. Tactically he is not a great manager either IMHO.

It is difficult to know how we are going to move forward. I have followed Everton for close to 65 years and I can't remember being more pissed-off than I was during the Reading game ?and believe me, I have been through some bad periods supporting Everton.

Regardless of who is to blame, a significant change is required, the Board, the Manager and the bleeding players need to step up and be counted.

Andrew Laird
49   Posted 03/03/2011 at 22:18:41

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I will blame Moyes every time I see his tactically negatve drivel, blatant favouritism, clueless substitutions, player positions, or hear him talk up the board, who are paying him well over the odds for frankly nil return, thank you very much.

He loves Bill and Bill loves him, time for the pair of them to slowly walk hand in hand off in to the sunset to the tune of "I got you babe".

Declan Burke
50   Posted 03/03/2011 at 22:23:11

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Sorry to remind you Peter #45 but you forgot Shandy Andy and Per Krøldrup.
James Brand
51   Posted 03/03/2011 at 22:30:37

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Peter #45 Declan #48...Heaven Forbid a manager make a mistake in the transfer market!!!

Jose Antonio Reyes, Eric Djemba Djemba, Juan Sebastian Veron, Richard Wrong, Franny Jeffers cost Wenger and Fergie their jobs respectively...oh wait hold on a didn't...THEY WERE MISTAKES countered by some excellent signing....

And before you draw attention to the fact that those managers won trophies (I actually cannot believe I even have to argue this point)...WE ARE CRAP....always have been and always will be (during my 28 yrs of supporting them)...stop living in Rotterdam and join the real world...

The aforementioned managers HAD MONEY...Moyes does not....and don't give me all that "yeah we blew £15m on Felli and Billy" me a favor - go away, find out how transfer deals are REALLY done, stop sourcing your information from the News of the World gossip column and then come back and discuss whether Moyes has worked on a shoe-string or not...

Whilst you're at it, remind yourself of Pienaar, Arteta, Cahill, Felli (for me he's a good buy)...for me, even the Yak, Billy, Heitinga are not BAD buys...though I definitely concede the Shandy Andy and Per Kroldrup....point taken...

My argument is that don't punish Moyes 10-yr legacy on an empty trophy cabinet, one or two bad buys and a negative style of''s better than the crap I grew up watching...

On paper, no it doesn't look good, but football isn't played on paper...I think he is ready for real investment and take Everton to the next level if Kenwright was to step aside...but let's be honest, there's more chance of Gaddaffi stepping aside...
Dick Fearon
52   Posted 03/03/2011 at 21:39:25

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Who was responsible for that stinking load of tripe against Reading? The finger must be pointed at the man who gathered a panel of other ex-defenders, clones of himself with not a single creative attacking idea between them.

Who paid a fortune for a Russian who has not got any trace of a competitive gene in his body?
Who signed a proven world class Dutch player then played him here, there and everywhere until the bloke ended up not knowing if he was Artha or Martha?
Who has been on a nine-year unsuccessful learning curve?
Who is overseeing Coleman's and Rodwell's rapid decline?
Who was responsible year-on-year for our squad being the least prepared at the start of each season?
Who signed at great expensce AJ JB and the Yak, three prolific scoring central strikers, then had them chasing useless ball down the wings?
Who is it that thinks Anichebe or Beckford are anywhere near the standard required?

Who devised the most boring predictable and mind-numbing style of play I have seen in 60 years of supporting Everton?

I could go on and on in a similar vein and bring up other flops and failures... but what's the point?
I have found myself gradually turning from being one of Moyes's strongest fans into wishing he would leave. The straw that broke this camels back was his euology of Osman.
Damien Kennedy
53   Posted 03/03/2011 at 23:08:08

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Tommy / Eugene.

We all need arrogant supporters like you on this site. I am not 12! I was around for the 80s team and our Wembley visits. But, if you remember, we lost more then than we won despite our regular visits ? or don't you know you facts!!! Well, I went often enough and remember the two Liverpool games and United!!

So don't tell me I accept second best! We could compete in the 80s and indeed we did to an extent! But let's not get carried away like we won 10 league titles and 4 FA cups etc.

I am a realist! We have no investment, no potential buyers. No new ground etc ? and David Moyes has given me some self respect with the kopite scum for the first time since the 80s, thanks to him!!
James Brand
54   Posted 03/03/2011 at 23:09:42

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You put up a good argument and are far more experienced/knowlegeable than I am at 28 years... maybe you're right... I'm just not there yet...

Has Bily REALLY been given a good run?

Heitinga ? world class?... for me, the jury's out on that one. Do Everton sign world class players?

Rodders ? come on, the guys had injuries and put it into perspective, he's no Wilshire (Sorry)...

Coleman ? I like him... lot's of endeavour, chips in with a few goals and does frighten defenders a bit, but he's far too clumsy for me... he's no Ronaldo... he will be a right back as he doesn't have the finesse to be right winger but, at the moment, he's a right back that doesn't know how to defend...

AJ, the Yak for me weren't bad buys... cost a lot of money incidentally, AJ was signed in the same month as £30m Shevcenko. Just to put that £8.6m we spent into perspective...
Beattie... ok I'll let you have that one...

Anichebe... give you that one too...
Beckford... come on, great bit of business... what did it cost us? His FA Cup heroics at Old Trafford and The Lane surely made him worth a punt? If it doesn't work out, so what... Aquillani anybody???
Osman...hmmmm, he's not great but I do think there is a witch hunt for him and Hibbert... could they do anything right?
Positives: Pienaar, Baines (best left back in the world currently?), Arteta before injury, Tim, Jags, Lescott, I could go on. We could make just as long a list for the positives...
Damien Kennedy
55   Posted 03/03/2011 at 23:21:02

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And David Bridge! What the hell did you expect us to get back into Europe and win the Europa Cup the first year!! We made progress and, but for a crap Yak penalty, would have gone onto a quarter final at least our second year in! You obviously don't know our European history. 1985 apart, that was our best run in Europe!! Under DM!!! With money he could give us our most successful period in our history.
David Thomas
56   Posted 03/03/2011 at 23:21:22

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"Supporters like him accepting 2nd best is part reason why we don't move forward"

Eugene / Tommy,

Please could one of you you explain the comment above. In what way is this particular fan stopping the club move forward?

Andy Crooks,

Can you explain what would be the point of Moyes coming out and attacking the board in the media for having no money?
David Thomas
57   Posted 03/03/2011 at 23:35:46

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Heitinga "world class". Never has been and never will be.

Overseeing Coleman's decline? His decline from what? When did Coleman reach a high level in your opinion that he could decline from? Same with Rodwell.
John Daley
58   Posted 04/03/2011 at 00:01:51

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"My argument is that don't punish Moyes 10-year legacy on an empty trophy cabinet, one or two bad buys and a negative style of play."

So what exactly will David Moyes's 'legacy' be then? What of lasting worth will he leave behind when he vacates the Goodison hotseat? Do you truly think he will be remembered as an Everton great in the future?
Thomas Williams
59   Posted 04/03/2011 at 00:30:03

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"By the way, Thomas, if you really are PJ, can I ask why you sold big Dunc in the most despicable manner possible ? literally behind the Manager's back while he was sat in the dugout that night?"

Yes, I can give you the reason on the big Dunc issue by a steward in the corridor that night, Monday night home game he was sold... Why? Because the following Thursday, EFC was going to be wound up by the taxman. Everton owed £7M, Everton sold Duncan for £7M, Ferguson was crying in the corridor saying he didn't want to go, Smith didn't know and that was wrong.

Regarding Joe Royle, he thumped PJ, after PJ told him he couldn't sell Duncan and buy Flo and another player.
No, I am not PJ, just that I had reliable sources during that time. No, I don't accept second best, but our managers, good or bad, will always fail despite their efforts or talents, due to the restrictions placed upon them. If Moyes goes, be prepared for Allardyce or David Jones... in other words, low budget; you pay low budget, you get low budget, low league placing, and Cup shocks.

Mike Galley
60   Posted 04/03/2011 at 00:31:40

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Tommy Coleman (#7), never a truer word spoken. I went to the 1984 FA Cup Final against Watford (40 now, went with my Dad) and I thought at the time that the Watford fans thought it was a celebration to be at Wembley. We, as in the players and fans, went there with one objective in mind, and that was to win the cup. Wembley against Chelsea, and I'm afraid too many of our fans turned up to celebrate being there and take what came that day. A losers' attitude... until that changes, our club will not move forward.
Stephen Leary
61   Posted 04/03/2011 at 00:52:20

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Thomas Williams why would it have to be Allardyce or Dave Jones? With the £3.5mil that Moyes gets, I'm sure we could get Martin Jol who after all was close to joining Fulham. We need a new owner yes fresh ideas etc... but, with the players we have got, I still feel a more attack-minded manager, like a Jol, could do better.
Chad Schofield
62   Posted 04/03/2011 at 01:01:34

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I agree with Jay that it's not quite so clear-cut, but also along with James Brand #39. Worse is that, if Moyes quits (he won't be sacked as that'll cost us), then Kenwright can play the "steadying ship" card.

It's farcical that he's been integral to so many of the rough times with the club and yet that's washed over simply because he's a blue. 99.9% of Evertonians could not afford financially to be The Chairman of EFC, and surely, you step down, do everything in your power to extract yourself and sort the club if it is a rescue plan. It's quite clear though that it's never been about the benefit of the club, more a status, toy trainset for Bill and he's let the Walter Mitty side of things run away with him.

Other than appointing and not sacking Moyes (though that's being questioned now), what has Bill done in his tenure other than lie, hock everything, and basically be detrimental to the club? In all seriousness, I struggle to see anything positive that he couldn't have done from a club ambassador type role.

Dick Fearon
63   Posted 04/03/2011 at 00:44:23

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James B #53, and Dave T #56,

My experience of watching, playing and coaching this game tells me that Bily is a pussy cat in the tackle and his work rate is non-existent and those factors will not change, regardless what position he is in. I class Heitinga as world class because he was a vital cog in Holland's qualifying games and finals of the recent World Cup.

When Coleman and Rodwell burst onto the scene, both were a breath of fresh air and widely touted as future stars. Despite having a fair number of games under their belt, their games have definitely tailed off. What I find really annoying is that Moyes and his panel of coaches do not or cannot improve any of the players' basic faults or weaknesses.

To mention a few other than those mentioned above, for incoming high balls, Howard is glued to his line, Neville or Hibbert's crosses, Jagielka's hoofing, Arteta's free kicks, Osman's tackling, shooting and heading, Beckford's first touch. It would take too long for me to list Anichebe's faults.

The point I am trying to make is that the above player faults have been patently evident for some time and neither Moyes nor his coaches have made the slightest improvement in any of them.

Richard Harris
64   Posted 04/03/2011 at 01:06:09

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Regardless of what has gone before, what money is available, what the board do or don't do, a manager picks a team from the players who are fit, motivates the less able ones, decides the tactics and should adapt them to the circumstances. David Moyes should be judged on the results and performances on the pitch.

Has he failed ? Will he ever win anything? FFS ? Birmingham have just won a trophy after how many years and on paper they have a less talented squad.

What is there left to play for this season? We won't get relegated and, rationally thinking, we won't finish in a European placing... so, if there are more dire games to come, then I look forward to a season where both Kenwright and Moyes have left and any new owners and manager can start building again. I would take a few seasons of mid-table if we were progressing and playing some decent football...

Dave Wilson
65   Posted 04/03/2011 at 00:33:52

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Ah fuck it, you're right, boys, let's sack Moyes, let's get a new guy in.

Let's get a manager in that can magic up free top-class wingers, so we don't have to play people out of position.

Let's get a manager who doesn't gamble on Championship standard strikers just because we are skint. One that won't "fuck them up" then make a profit on them. Just because they were/are unable to cut it at this level.

Let's get a manager who will forge a feared world class strike force that`ll cost absolutely fuck all but will terrorise Europe, someone who will somehow create a thus far unknown "12th position" so Cahill still gets a game.

Let's get a manager who, unlike any other manager who ever lived, doesn't lose to lesser teams in a knock-out competition that was made great by ...err shock results ? especially if those "minnows" have spent more than us in the past two seasons... fucken upstarts.

Let's get a manager who will transform Tony Hibbert into Danny McGrain, make Leon Osman two stone heavier and four inches taller, supply Seamus Coleman with a neck brace so he can play with his head up and knows what's going on around him, a manager who can "learn" Beckford to become Gerd Muller, someone who will generally stop wasting the talents of players no other club wants and who cost fuck all, a manager who will turn big Vic into Big Daddy.

Let's get one of those managers who didn't make a mistake in the transfer market. Somebody who works for nothing and calls the board a bunch of wankers on a daily basis.

Let's choose a manager who picks all the players we want him to pick and therefore isn't "negative", somebody who like us, knows money doesn't count for fuck all and will leave the post he's in now to come and work for BK because he wants to prove it.

Yes, guys you`ve won me over, you`re argument was too powerful, there must be dozens ? probably even hundreds of managers who tick all the above boxes.


Roman Sidey
66   Posted 04/03/2011 at 02:39:40

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Probably enjoyed reading the posts more than the article, which isn't a surprise. Although, from the title, I thought I was going to be going off at the author, although I agree with the first part, and the second half did make me question my distaste for DM. Thomas, one thing though, read this:,17033,8652_6787203,00.html.

After reading all the posts though, there?s too many to respond to, so I?ll make a list of the things I remember agreeing with and disagreeing with.

? Almost everything Dick says.
? Moyes supports the board, therefore is one of them, therefore is very much part of the problem.
? Less money that the rest of the EPL cannot excuse losing AT HOME to Reading in the FA Cup.
? Walter Smith has gone on to win and take Rangers back to being a great side. I know it?s a lower standard, but it?s relative, as the players are also worse. A good manager can flourish in any league, just as a bad manager would struggle in any league ? I honestly think that Moyes would struggle at ANY club in ANY league with his current approach.
? Moyes has bought good players, and pretty much fucked their lives.

? Fellaini is worth £20mil and was good business. He was a deadline day purchase, and they are rarely good value. I don?t think any team would pay over £15mil for him, especially now after his latest injury.
? Hibbert, Osman, Anichebe aren?t to blame ? I can think of plenty of occasions where these players have single handedly cost us points, but can?t think of many where they?ve single handedly won us points. I know the others aren?t perfect, but these guys have been left behind in improvement.
? We expected too much in the UEFA Cup/Europa League. If you are the ?best of the rest? in the supposed best league in the world, you should be winning this comp.
? Heitinga IS world class, but has obviously realised he made a massive cock up joining a team managed by a clueless twat that rates shite players.

Finally, James Brand, this is not a snipe. What I do find odd, and also kind of quirky, is that we are around the same age, think the same things about the squad and the way Moyes has shaped it over the last few years, but our opinion of Moyes himself is the exact opposite. Fair play to you, but that is kind of weird.

Steve O'Malley
67   Posted 04/03/2011 at 04:14:42

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Dick Fearon #63
Go to the top of the class. Agree 100%. Don't take this the wrong way Dick but what you stated is blatantly obvious to ANYONE who understands the game.
Thomas Williams
68   Posted 04/03/2011 at 04:11:00

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Steven Leary #61; Steven this Everton we are talking about, Martin Jol? We are not spurs etc, we ALWAYS go for the low end manager or players and have done since 1997, that is why I feel it is wrong to attack Moyes.

He and the players have been browbeaten by the ineptitude of the board, some will feel they should do more, they get paid, blah, blah, but can anyone in here say they would be pulling their tripe out in their line of employment, if your bosses were as bad as our board?

11 years of zero investment, 11 years of not increasing turnover of the club (only thing has gone up is Sky money) that is our legacy.

To the guy that said Moyes has turned into a Walter Smith, glad you said that, because that is the point of my article. Name me one club in the top 2 divisions possibly some 3rd and 4th as well, who all their strikers cost £0, nothing, not a bloody bean... for what is generally the main area of the team, what chance has any manager got with those restrictions?

Moyes makes mistakes, we all do, but to not see the bigger picture is OUR main problem. Moyes has made enough snide comments about lack of funding to read between the lines; personally, I would have liked him to call the board's bluff to be honest, but Moyes (unlike the FSW across the park) has some class, don't turn it against him.

Thomas Williams
69   Posted 04/03/2011 at 04:25:49

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Roman, I agree the Osman/Hibbert thing is off, maybe he was being sarcastic? Who knows? The two of them are not bad players, they can both fill in at times and do a job. They are not first team players, we all agree on that, but it is indicative of the present lack of investment as to why both of them are still at our club.
John Maxwell
70   Posted 04/03/2011 at 04:31:10

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Roman #66..

I could win the SPL managing Rangers or Celtic with you as my assistant manager... Were you being serious??


Moyes supports the board and it part of the problem?

Ok, after you've been into your boss's office, called him a cunt, asked for more money then emailed the whole company about it all... Please let us all know what happened next? I can't wait...
John Maxwell
71   Posted 04/03/2011 at 04:46:55

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... and this one.

- Moyes has bought good players, and pretty much fucked their lives.

Ok which player now lives in a cardboard box near Threshers?

Moyes is not the devil.
James Flynn
72   Posted 04/03/2011 at 07:14:34

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Jimmy (12) - "The problem with these argument of 'Even Alex Ferguson and Mourinho would fail at Everton' is that it's bollocks. They'd do a lot better than Moyes would, because they are great managers while Moyes is only a good one".

You're just joking right? Really Ferguson would do better under current conditions? He's done exactly what Moyes has over the years, excepting he's had 100s of millions more than Moyes to do it. Likely the money makes no difference, I'm sure.

Remember EFC-Hull last season; 5-1? If Ferguson was managing Hull that day, the score would have been the same. I'm willing to concede that if forced to take on Hull as manager, Fergy would at least give it a go. Mourinho wouldn't have even returned a call if offered Hull.

Ferguson has simply been able to do what DM has not, make personnel decisions at a higher level of talent because he's always had the finance to do so.

I'd go so far as to say SAF hasn't done better than one would expect him to over the years, since he's been the one with the most funding available for the last 20+ years.

And Mourinho? I like him and he's certainly the right guy when you have all the pieces in place and need that final push. But let's keep him out of any discussion until he actually builds a team, OK.

By the way, you're the first poster here I can recall, who slagged Moyes while calling him a good manager. Don't remember ever reading a good manager called "only" a good manager. What does that even mean?
James Flynn
73   Posted 04/03/2011 at 07:48:35

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Dave (65) OK, now it's official. You're back. Good post.

Andy Crooks
74   Posted 04/03/2011 at 08:24:55

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Dave Wilson, here's what I would expect from a new manager with our current squad:

? I would expect us to be in contention for a Europa League place.
? The cups represent our best chance of success, therefore, I would expect us to approach every cup game as though it was a last day of the season relegation battle.
? Finally, I would expect a reduction in the number of truly shocking performances.

Like yourself, at the start of the season I wasn't expecting us to be Champions League contenders, we simply haven't the resources for that. However, surely you would agree that the rest was achievable.

David Thomas
75   Posted 04/03/2011 at 09:06:59

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I think we create our own downfall sometimes when players come in and set ourselves up to be disappointed.

Heitinga is not a world class player. Have a think about the great defenders that you have seen over the years and then consider would you say Heitinga is their equal.

Coleman was a prospect who came in and got this sudden adulation from the fans who for some reason could not see his obvious weaknesses. He was a player who dived into the tackle had very little positional sense, was not a great passer, but because he put his head down and ran at people in the last 10-15 of games everyone had him down as a star and criticising Moyes for not playing him. Now a lot of the people who said he should start every game and were telling us he was the most exciting defender they had seen for years are criticising Moyes because the lads limitations have been found out by playing week in week out.

Same with Rodwell the lad has come in and looked like he has the potential to be a good player but some of the fans start comparing him to the Kaiser, Zidane etc and how he will be the england captain. Once again, when the lad plays and it's obvious that the lad is never going to get anywhere near the level that people have "built up" for him Moyes gets attacked because its all his fault he has stopped Rodwell becoming a world beater.
Dick Fearon
76   Posted 04/03/2011 at 09:21:17

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Dave W #65, He has had nine years of total control of the playing side of things at Goodison yet I do not expect Moyes to do all those things you mention.

What I do expect and match goers are entitled to demand is something a whole lot better than the utter shite his team displayed in a home game against a mediocre Championship side.

Moyes plus his coaching staff of ex-defender has-beens should be thoroughly embarrassed and ashamed of what they put out on that sad miserable night.

Dave Wilson
77   Posted 04/03/2011 at 09:27:26

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I have a genuine respect for your opinion, I`m interested in your views, we share the same love of the beautiful game and the intense dislike for the ugly one... but your obvious dislike for our manager seems to always create gaping hole in your logic.

You say in your latest article that you feel that not having experience of managing at the top level should be not be considered a negative... then you hold up the guy you have been campaigning for two years to get rid of as some sort of shining example?

Of course all of those things on your list are achievable, the guy you want out has to a large degree demonstrated that.

Sure there have been some pretty abject performances and I`m not talking only about Bolton or Reading, but surely the fact that these two "minnows" are now in a better position than us to strengthen highlights to you just how tight the straight jacket inside which DM now operates has become.

Achievable? Of course... but It would be a monumental achievement for a guy to come in and have us challenging ? one that may even earn him enough respect for his peers to almost unanimously vote him their manager of the year?

Cap tipped though, Andy; no matter how passionate you feel about this, you have at least steered clear of making that idiotic claim that people who decide to support the manager ? one that would not be my choice ? are somehow responsible for the position the club now finds itself in.
John Ford
78   Posted 04/03/2011 at 10:23:15

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Dave Wilson... stirling stuff, sir, I'll leave this in your capable hands.
Dave Wilson
79   Posted 04/03/2011 at 10:12:39

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This may come as a surprise to you, but every manager, every single manager who has kept his job long enough to have a couple of cup campaigns, has been shamed and humiliated... that's what the cup has been built on, the longer they stay in the job, the more times they are humiliated.

What I don't get is: if as you suggest we are fielding Championship standard players, our manager is so shite, and we have less money to strengthen than our Championship opposition, why are you so shocked and outraged when we dont win??

We are not Chelsea or Man City, with Rodwell, Baxter, Anichebe, Osman, Beckford, Coleman all taking part Moyes was forced to put more cost-fuck-all players onto that pitch than McDermot!

Smell the coffee, we may have been the richest club in the country when you were going but we are fucken dying now.

Blaming the manager instead of that hero of yours, Kenwright, won't change a thing.
Phil Bellis
80   Posted 04/03/2011 at 09:30:47

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Some cracking ideas in that diatribe, Dave; there's hope for you, yet, it seems.
Tommy Coleman
81   Posted 04/03/2011 at 11:22:36

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I have one question for you Dave Wilson.

Would you take another 9 years of Moyes in charge with the exact same "successes" and "failures" of his previous 9 years?
Paul Gladwell
82   Posted 04/03/2011 at 11:38:44

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Could not even be arsed reading this after I saw the title. This is the first time I have read a paper, seen the TV or dealt with anything football related since paying to watch that shite the other night, did you happen to pay to watch it too Thomas?

Yes, there are faults with every person at that club and this season, with our best squad in years, look at what has happened and I am sick to the fucking teeth of people in the media and on here claiming how lucky we are to have the untouchable one.

He has done a good job over the years and has had more praise than any other manager, this year he deserves stick, full stop.

Dave Wilson
83   Posted 04/03/2011 at 12:11:55

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Tommy, fair question, so honest answer/s

Would Moyes have been my first choice manager? ? No

Is he now? ? No.

Do I think he's been hung to dry? ? Absolutely.

Will I support him as long as he is here? ? To the hilt.
Dave Wilson
84   Posted 04/03/2011 at 12:23:33

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Sorry, Tommy, one more:

Do I think that supporting a manager who, by my own admission, wouldn't be my first choice, is damaging the club? ? On the contrary.

I think the people who know we can afford to pay him off, know we can't afford to pay compensation for another club's manager, know Kenwright won't sack him, and know we are stuck with the squad we have, but still keep battering away, are doing untold damage to this club.

Merely my opinion.

Dick Fearon
85   Posted 04/03/2011 at 12:29:00

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Dave (#79), If you read my posts properly, you would see that I am not getting at Moyes for the failures of his team against 'comparable' Prem sides. I did get into him over his team's performance against a mediocre Championship side. I did note his failure to improve long-known glaring weaknesses in his players. Whether that means his players are incapable of improvement or he is incapable of improving them is a matter of personal choice.

You choose to think he is doing a fine job with players, all of whom he brought on through the ranks or brought in as transfers. I choose to think many of them have gone backwards or at the very least shown no identifiable improvement. Let's leave it at that, eh.

Daniel A Johnson
86   Posted 04/03/2011 at 12:47:10

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Moyes will never come out and slag off Kenwright, the man has ?Integrity?, he may say it in private but never in public. Why do you think he rates Osman, Cahill, Hibbert, and Capn Fantastic Neville so much as they mirror his core values: loyalty, pride and effort. That's why he states they will be here as long as he is.

I?m not pro-Moyes, he has done an okay job in crap conditions, but conditions he was fully aware of, let's not forget. He signed his latest contract with his eyes wide open to the task ahead.

David Moyes has been doing this job for nearly 9 years with one hand tied to his balls. The problem is what he's done with his other hand at times has had most fans scratching their heads. He is dour, tactically aloof, very reactionary, and at times follows rather than leads. At times he can be brilliant ? look at Man City away, he had the players so fired up we destroyed them 2-0 and on top of that he nearly chinned Mancini. But then there are matches like Fiorentina away and the FA Cup Final where we meekly waved the white flag, crushed by the weight of negativity and the inferiorty complex that goes with.

I sense now, though, Moyes is getting tired and jaded. The energy he once infused into the players has gone, enthusiasm and hope has been replaced with frustration and the stark realisation that he can?t work the miracle every week.

I think Moyes should steer this ship to safety then resign, waving any compensation. It?s the decent proper thing to do and if Moyes is the man of integrity, I think he is, he should fall on his sword at the last game of the season.

The performance against Reading was proof enough for me Moyes can no longer inspire the players. It was the worst performance I have ever seen, it wasn?t bad, it was shameful.

To carry on would be dangerous and foolhardy. The atmosphere is now sour and getting more nasty, I don?t want to see Moyes getting foul language and grief from our fans. But he will get it eventually if the shameful performances continue.

Although Everton as a club is in decline, if the manager's position became vacant, we would have a lot of hats thrown into the ring. We would appeal to a lot of managers as, despite what BSkyB think, we are STILL a big club with history and pride.

I would like to see Neil Warnock given a chance at a big club; controversial choice... but hey, it's just my opinion.

But let's face it, players and mangers may come and go but it looks like Kenwright will be here for a long, long, long time.
David Price
87   Posted 04/03/2011 at 12:18:38

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Summarise David Moyes and his tenure, then you will have more positives and build up a worthy case of his praise.

Yes, we reached a level that was much better than before he came, but the older guys who have seen it all before can sense what is coming next. This season was never going to be about maintaining stability, it was to be defining in a way of further progress or a dramitic decline. The latter has happened and it's unlikely we will recover to the positions of the last four years.

You're only as good as your last game and it's this one that currently is the yardstick to measure Mr Moyes on. Tactically, after early possession, Bily should have gone central, Osman gone left. Half-time: Neville off, Coleman full back to then properly overlap into space that a Jose Baxter could have created by joining the right flank. Beckford on for Areta or Rodwell, basically do something the opposition is least expecting.

We played right into Reading's hands and did nothing to rectify the problem. That was Moyes's job, this was our leader, the man the side looked to, to motivate and organise. He failed, the team failed and I can't see a way out with no serious changes at the club.

Our financial set-up needs a manager who, like Moyes was a few years ago, is aware of the hidden gems in the lower leagues. Moyes has lost that skill along with that drive that inspired his players.

David Bridge
88   Posted 04/03/2011 at 13:12:28

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Dave Wilson (#65) ? Are you a life coach? How can you stay positive about Moyes and BK. To answer your questions honestly:

? A new manager would have realised we actually needed wingers and purchased them with the money they HAD been given, in good time to settle them into the squad and work with the team. Moyes buys 11th hour misfits Bily / Feillani.
? A new manager would give Beckford a chance, play to his strengths alongside another striker and not patronise / belittle him in public by telling him it?s a big jump to the Premier League. Moyes puts him on as a lone striker with 10 minutes remaining till full time when we are already beaten.

? A new manager would realise that at times Cahill should be dropped and at others he should be played where he belongs in midfield.
? A new manager would not entertain Osman, Anichebe or Hibbert and sell them to a Championship club.
? A new manager could stipulate the need for extra cash more firmly than telling BK he is the best boss in the business and wouldn?t change him for the world (the reason he wouldn?t change him is that new owners wouldn?t put up with the shite produced by Moyes).
? A new manager would pick a more balanced team and take a chance every now and again.

The only sense you wrote was in your final words ? MOYES OUT!!!

Gary Carter
89   Posted 04/03/2011 at 13:02:51

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Peter Fearon No 6 - "Kenwright saved the club from bankruptcy by putting in his own wealth" ? Really?!?! When? And where can I see proof of this? And what do we find ourselves on the edge of now due to his complete ineptitude?

And you comment on the squad Moyes has built, that would be the one that has seen us finish 5th, get to a cup final etc etc against all the odds, the same squad that had NO INVESTMENT at the start of this season and has since been dismantled because Billy Liar has invested... NO MONEY !!!! You contradict yourself in nearly every sentence, mate.
Ryan Holroyd
90   Posted 04/03/2011 at 13:18:25

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I think this season has shown that the players we thought could challenge teams above us who have spent hundreds of millions of pounds are just not good enough. We've been going backwards since we sold Lescott coupled with Spurs and Man City spending hundreds of millions of and wage on top class players.

I think as fans we all want and think our players are much better than what they are. Yes, clearly he has made major mistakes. No one can deny that. He'd be the first person to admit he has. In the main, I still believe Moyes has done a brilliant job in the circumstances he finds himself in.

No investment in the team for SIX transfer windows whilst clubs with bigger budgets spend hugh amounts. Yes, we beat City away and had good results against Spurs etc but over the course of a whole season we have just not been good enough and we looked like a relegation side. Although I don't believe we will go down because the Premier League is full of crap teams and we'll fininish around midtable.

Nothing will change in the summer. No investment will come through. Fellaini or Rodwell will be sold. I'm certain of that.

Peter (#6) ? Bill Kenwright has not put ONE SINGLE PENNY into EFC. It's in the Kirkby stadium plans if you can be bothered to read them.
Gary Carter
91   Posted 04/03/2011 at 13:22:47

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David Bridge, laughable.... Fellaini a misfit, surely you must be joking, and Bily IS a winger!! DOH!!

And Beckford belittled, surely Moyes is only guilty of stating the blindingly obvious when he says about the step up, unless of course you actually feel there is no difference between League 1 and Premier League football. If that's the case, mate, you can probably give a list of other players we can sign from Div 1 that will propel us further than David Moyes has. Better do it quick, mind you, before all the other Premier League sides cotton on!!

Lone striker or playing alongside someone would not stop Beckford trying 60 yards lobs that go hopelessly over or make him suddenly find a blue shirt with a ten-yard pass. And also worth noting we only have 3 strikers, one being the injury-prone Saha and the other being the bag of shit that is Anichebe!

Of course he could sell Anichebe, Hibbert and Osman, like in January when we offloaded the Yak, Pienaar, Vaughan etc... but, if you don't get the money to spend afterwards, like what happened with them, you would just have 3 less players in the squad if my maths is correct!

A new manager could stipulate that he wants more cash "more firmly". You can be as firm as you like, Billy Liar has no cash so you can be as firm as you like, won't make a blind bit of difference!!!
Andrew Clare
92   Posted 04/03/2011 at 13:25:29

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You are right, we shouldn't blame Moyes... we should blame the Board for keeping a manager for 9 years that hasn't won a thing!

Where is the Everton that believes in Nil Satis Nisi Optimum? We have become an also-ran because we no longer start the season expecting to win the league.

I want a Harry Catterick ? a man who says 'we think big, we are big' ? not a mouse! I want a manager who expects the best at all times, a manager who can motivate the players, a man who knows the passion of the fans, the history of the club, who thinks that we are as big as anyone.

Accepting what we have now is going to result in us fading away; already, the media think of us as an over-achieving club. I hate to hear that. We are Everton ? one of the biggest and most famous clubs in the world.

Get the right board in and the right manager in and let's get back where we belong. This lot are just not acceptable, how can the directors be happy watching such a poor team?

Peter Warren
93   Posted 04/03/2011 at 13:43:09

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Board is a massive problem but so is Moyes. Take Neville off with 3 mins to go bring Jose on. Start the match 4-5-1 ? if he rates Anichebe enough to give him a contract, start him as a striker. I don't think he's much cop but most certainly is not a wide man,FFS.

Loads of problems with Moyes, we can all cite Osman, Bily, Heitinga out of position etc etc.

But things like Fellaini ? now I think he's class, does a good job and that he will move to Chelsea in summer and people will start to understand how good he is. However, for us he plays as a defensive midfielder ? everybody (whether they think he's class or not) seems to agree with Moyes that this is his best position.

I find this absolutely staggering, he is not a defensive midfielder ? he should be pushed further forward and cause havoc playing further up in central midfield ? he is no way an anchorman.
Gary Carter
94   Posted 04/03/2011 at 14:09:09

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Dave Wilson (#65) ? Spot on mate, should be a wake up call to some of the loony postings/posters on here, sadly it won't be....
Roberto Birquet
95   Posted 04/03/2011 at 14:22:09

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Terry Coleman
"But Moyes has to take resposiblilty for his part also. ... bad expensive signings, in fact, Moyes could replace the likes of (jobs for life) Osman and Hibbert if he didn't blow so much money on the Yak, Billy, Felliani, all vastly over priced players."
Bad expensive signings. Who? Fellaini and Yak? Fellaini is probably our best player, and Yak our first 20-goal-a-season scorer since Beardsley FFS! What an ignorant post!

We have been unlucky with Yak - nothing else. He got badly injured. If we spend £11m this summer and get someone as good as Yak was then, I'll be relieved. But he could still get injured, and thru no fault of Moyes's, we'll still have cheap back-ups.

And I would keep Bily, too.

Unfortunately we need two strikers. And that means the sales already to come (Yak, Yobo, Vaughan, Pienaar, and I'd throw in Anichebe) will only pay for one in all likelihood. A second striker and a winger ? even if one is on loan will require selling a star player (probably Fellaini rather than Daily Mirror's suggestion of Rodwell).

None of that is the fault of Moyes. My major gripe with Moyes is last summer. He should have sold Yak (West Ham offer was good as we can all see now; but should have been recognised then) and Pienaar then for probably up to £14 million, and got a striker, and maybe a winger. What a wasted year!
Roberto Birquet
96   Posted 04/03/2011 at 14:33:29

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Stephen Leary ? At least we got play the likes of Sporting, Fiorentina and Dinamo. Since the days we won league titles in the 80s until the arrival of Moyes, we had played exactly four games in Europe.

Oh, let's airbrush that embarassing footnote to our history, shall we? Under Moyes, we went from being Leicester City level to the level of Spurs and Newcastle.

The recent Guardian piece that we had gone up under Moyes, but lately went into decline, fails to note that we scored more than 60 points in EACH of our last three seasons. That did not happen in first four Moyes's seasons (59, 39, 61, 51). The next four (58, 63, 65, 61). And previous to Moyes? Over 60 points just once (61 in 1996).

Embarrassing? Yes, it fucking was!
Brian Waring
97   Posted 04/03/2011 at 14:44:10

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James (#72) Didn't Alex Ferguson do the treble in 1999, with a team consisting of players who came through the academy? Giggs, Butt, Beckham, Phil Neville, Wes Brown, Gary Neville and Paul Scholes?
Dave Wilson
98   Posted 04/03/2011 at 15:08:10

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Fair enough, just because I suport Moyes against what I believe to be unfair criticism doesn't mean I think he is blameless.


Yes they did, with the exception of Brown, they all played at least 15 games.. . surrounding them with already established world class players helped a little though.
Michael Kenrick
99   Posted 04/03/2011 at 15:49:16

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Roberto (#56): Moyes and the Yak had a falling out. That is why Yakubu is not playing for Everton anymore. For a manger to allow that to happen is to me a sign of bad man-management, and god only knows what affect that has had on the morale of the rest of the squad.

Definitely Moyes is hugely to blame for ruining not only the Yak but a string of other strikers.

David Bridge
100   Posted 04/03/2011 at 16:22:38

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Gary Carter (#91), In my opinion, Fellaini is a misfit: he is clumsy, injury-prone and is often guilty of handing the ball back to the opposition with his poor passing / poor touch. As for Chelsea being interested, this is a rumour drafted by his dad to get him a move or a bigger contract; we heard the same with Rodwell (Utd/Chelsea), Arteta (Arsenal/Madrid), Anichebe (?????) and even Moyes (Utd) ? all before dramatic new contracts.

If Beckford is not good enough then why is he our main striker? Moyes has to take the blame for that. It has always been obvious even when he was at Fulham, that Saha can only play a small percentage of games. I actually like Beckford but Moyes just won't give him a chance. I?d rather see him blast the ball over, at least he?s trying, than see Anichebe sulking and strolling around the pitch throwing himself on the floor and tantruming.

If Bily is a winger, the problem is solved, isn?t it? Can you actually think of an occasion when he has got past anyone ? other than in the friendly against Everton Chile? Again, Moyes doesn?t think he is good enough and he is not.

Thankfully, Moyes has not had massive transfer funds ? do you remember he wanted to sign Jô for £18M? If he had done, he would also be loaned to a shit Championship club now.
Stephen Leary
101   Posted 04/03/2011 at 16:16:00

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Roberto Birquet, the point is he did a good job up to a point. We are now heading back to the level of a Fulham. In Europe granted in 07-08 we had a good run but for penalties, but every other time we have been piss poor. And now, Premier League managers are easily figuring out how we play and they know how to stop it. He has stood still ? you can't play the same system you did five seasons ago and expect to still be relatively successful.

All top teams progress and play different tactics but Moyes hasn't moved on. We are predictable and stale he's stubborn and won't change. Pays £10M for a player who he says isn't a winger but constantly plays him wide left! Letting Yak go and Vaughan and leaving us with an injury prone forward, a player still trying to find his feet at the top level, and Victor Anichebe who's goal scoring record one of the worst in our history. He did a good job but now its time for a change.
Tommy Coleman
102   Posted 04/03/2011 at 16:48:01

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Dave Wilson ? I hear/respect what you say in regards to "another 9 years" with Moyes, although I don't agree we should now accept it.

Roberto Birquet ? I put the same question to you, would you take another 9 years of Moyes in charge with the exact same "successes" and "failures" of his previous 9 years?

? Do I think the Yak has been a £12m signing? No.
? Do I think Hairdoo has been worth £15m? No.
? Do I think Bily has been worth £10m? No.

And my reason is this, and there's nothing ignorant about it: Moyes cannot take such huge gambles with the money the club has. Compare those prices with Arshavin (£8m), Van der Vaart (£7m), now tell me Moyes didn't pay too much when compared with these players.

Tom Owen
103   Posted 04/03/2011 at 16:35:49

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We are currently a sinking ship under Moyes & Kenwright. Time for both to go. These past two seasons have been an absolute disaster.

Everton's poor season as been down to the lack of ambition from both Kenwright & Moyes. We spent nothing in the summer. And even though Moyes talks about it being the best squad since he's started; he still persists playing 4-5-1, defensive and deep. No ambition in his tactics.

Everton are boring and going nowhere under Moyes. He's had 9 years to win a trophy. We don't look like winning a trophy under Moyes in another 9 years either. That is the reality that people do not see.

I think we all know that, if Moyes did have money to spend in the summer, he would've bought a striker and maybe a right sided player, but continued to play the 4-5-1 system.

The 4-5-1 system worked three years ago; however, we've been sussed out now. Teams come and play here at Goodison. Moyes doesn't know any different. He lacks any real ideas.

Without the likes of Baines and Coleman this season, we would really be struggling at the bottom now.
Amit Vithlani
104   Posted 04/03/2011 at 17:31:49

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There was an air of dodginess around PJ's regime. Anyone remember the Steve Simonsen deal? From his old club Tranmere... how curious.

Dave Wilson, I have to salute you for fighting the lone battle but, from Tuesday night, surely some doubts must be creeping into your mind.

I do think the castigation Moyes has taken is over the top. The £45 million or whatever he has spent was by enlarge financed by player sales... true, some of it was the Rooney money but we did make decent profits on Bent, Lescott, McFadden to name three. Even AJ was sold for a profit.

However, on Tuesday night, I think we saw that DM is giving up the ghost. The tactical selection was designed not to lose, the players looked devoid of motivation, and played with fear. The last time I saw something similar was 0-3 vs Boro in 2002 in the FA Cup....
Charles King
105   Posted 04/03/2011 at 17:57:20

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Tommy Coleman @ 81 ? put that question to music and play it every time the "No alternative to Moyes" brigade come out.

Hilarious seeing Dave Wilson tap dancing around it.
Roberto Birquet
106   Posted 04/03/2011 at 17:55:11

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Tommy Coleman ? first, let's get the facts:

? Arshavin cost Arsenal £15M, and much more in wages than we pay Fellaini.
? Do I think Fellaini is worth £12-15M (depending who you believe on the fee)? Yes, I do. If we lose him, my bet is it'll be for a profit.

On finance, I'm sorry too much nonsense here, we have done well financially under Moyes. He never wanted to sign Jô for £18M. And other figures above are just plain wrong. Anyone can find examples of clubs finding someone cheap (you missed Fabregas for half a million, btw), and then compare to an expensive failure. But FFS get the facts right.

Everton have bucked the trend of last 5-6 years in scoring more points for our wage bill than the rest of the League in its entirety. That is no opinion, just pure statistical truth. That is not taking isolated examples eg Fellaini vs Van Persie, but the overall spend.

So to your 'we can't waste such money on our finances'; you're simply wrong to say we are. Our net transfer spend under Moyes is £3 million a year. Using facts rather than "£8M Arshavin", how many can point to signings like Cahill, Jagielka, Arteta, Pienaar, Baines, the massive profit on Lescott (all for £20M the lot)? On this point, Moyes is an undisputed success. (I repeat that is not opinion just statement of points to pounds spent.)

On strikers, I noticed Yak was suddenly not playing from late November on and wondered what the deal was. He scored a good goal vs Stoke. And of course, given the few strikers we had that was poor... and I still don't understand letting Vaughan go. I have said that I am unhappy with Moyes's policy this last year. We needed new blood and had no money so he simply had to wheel 'n deal; he bottled that judgement.

Moyes HAS made mistakes, but this idea that he has misspent is utter garbage and needs exposing. This season has seen us exposed in two ways:

We have not got a reliable Premier League striker. But again, Saha and Beckford cost £1 million ? he hasn't had money. The big mistake was not biting the bullet and selling Yak and Pienaar ? who anyone with eyes could see had little future at the club. They would have got us a striker at least, if not a winger, too.

We are too rarely able to get round determined defences. Some people think we have an easy run in. But we get better results against better teams: Spurs, Man C, Chelsea, Man U and Liverpool this season, compared with... well you do not need telling.

I do not want Moyes out. There is a very good squad there, and I don't want to lose the major part of it. But Moyes needs to learn from mistakes. And, based on past success, I would give him two years ? and no funds other than player sales, 'cos we don't have money ? to get us back to a 60-points-a-season team that can compete for the top four. Financially, we should not have a right to top 4 in our unfair League, but we should compete for it.

Dave Wilson
107   Posted 04/03/2011 at 19:04:18

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Did you have a point, lad?
Charles King
108   Posted 04/03/2011 at 19:24:29

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Not that you can see ? son.
David Israel
109   Posted 04/03/2011 at 19:08:33

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Sorry, folks! Just because BK does an awful job, it doesn't mean the man in charge of the football team gets off the hook. DM may have performed above expectations in the past, but these past two seasons he has clearly under-performed, and so, if he got the praise he deserved in the first instance, he should get the criticism he also deserves this time out.

As for Peter Johnson, well, gone but far from forgotten, but I have come to have as little respect for BK as I had for the hamper man.
Tony Christian
110   Posted 04/03/2011 at 19:53:28

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What's the latest stats? Remind me ? is it that under David Moyes we have been losing 65 games at half time and only managed to win one? The fact remains that any so-called 'big club' would have no hesitation in sacking a manager who has not won a trophy in nine years.
Dave Wilson
111   Posted 04/03/2011 at 19:56:43

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Charlie lad, you`re making me blush.
Charles King
112   Posted 04/03/2011 at 20:01:43

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Dave, Don't get embarrassed, kid, you stick to your guns ? I won't tell.
Trevor Lynes
113   Posted 04/03/2011 at 21:29:25

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What is all the nonsense about PJ starting the academy system ?? I played against Everton 'A' in the late 50s and in those days we had at least SIX teams out every week... the youngsters were called EFC Colts. Players who were not performing or coming back from injury played in the Reserves!!

PJ might have thought up the name 'Academy' but the idea of having youth sides has always been in place at every top club... Everton and Liverpool 'A' teams played in the Lancashire League, as I did.

Trevor Lynes
114   Posted 04/03/2011 at 21:34:57

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I reckon the Yak had a fallout with DM (if it's true) because he was told to 'move his arse' and run into space. He still looks over weight and the manager has the right to criticsize players who are not performing or doing their job!!

DM also had fall outs with big DUNC etc etc. Catterick had fallouts with Young and Vernon... it is not news that managers upset players and vice versa.

The players on many occasions have cost managers their jobs at many clubs and I'm quite happy to hear that DM has not been complacent about players not performing!

Dick Fearon
115   Posted 04/03/2011 at 21:43:49

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I coached a team of kids to the final of a Maghull community football fayre in the mid 60s. My team was the youngest average age 8 years. we were allowed a 2-goal start for each year that our opponents had over us.
We beat Everton's youth team 20-19.

The great attitude of the Everton lads, their coaches and first aid staff made it a really happy and memorable day for our kids. Cheering on from the sidelines was almost the club's entire senior squads.

Not long after that, as probably the first of our cost-cutting exercises, the club culled a lot of its junior sides. I cannot remember how many of them we had that played in various competitions scattered throughout the Northwest of England.

Trevor Lynes
116   Posted 04/03/2011 at 22:38:17

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Dick (#115)... Cheers, you have the same memories as myself and I played against many kids at that time who went on to become big stars. I had big ambitions myself and played for Southport in the old League Division 3 North and Buxton but sustained a double fracture which completely broke my patella and fibula ending my ambitions... but Derek Temple, Jimmy Melia, Chris Lawler and Tommy Smith all did OK!!!

Nowadays, players get well paid for bench warming and never get to play a competitive game for a full 90 minutes because they are not expected to play reserve games... it's money for old rope!!

Phil Bellis
117   Posted 05/03/2011 at 12:16:22

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If, God forbid, we get relegated, would it be OK, then, to blame Moyes and Kenwright?

I would.

Phil Bellis
118   Posted 05/03/2011 at 12:16:22

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If, God forbid, we get relegated, would it be OK, then, to blame Moyes and Kenwright?

I would.

Michael Brien
119   Posted 06/03/2011 at 14:28:34

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Stop blaming Moyes, you say? It's funny how he seems ready to accept all the plaudits when things are going well but, when things are going badly, it's somebody else's fault.

David Moyes is the man who decides on the tactics, who decides which players to sign. In his time at Everton, he has signed several strikers ? they seem to last 2 or 3 seasons. Have all of these been bad players? I don't think so.

It's about time some of the David Moyes "apologists" stopped hiding behind the "it's all Kenwright's fault" shield. Kenwright doesn't decide the tactics. David Moyes does and I have to say he is one of the most frustrating Everton managers I have ever known. We have some fine attacking players ? with a manager who seems to stifle them with his safety first approach.

If Moyes was more adventurous, and by that I mean not just for one or two matches, but on a more consistent level, then I think we would quickly move up that table. His near obsession with 4-5-1 has stifled our strikers. Fortune favours the brave ? time to be brave, Mr Moyes.
Roman Sidey
120   Posted 06/03/2011 at 23:02:30

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Thomas Williams, fair response to my post, but I do feel that had he spent some money on strikers in the past 3 years, and maybe kept Johnson, instead of buying 14 midfielders for overpriced sums, then things might be different. I think Saha was good business, and if we can get him to the end of his career on a pay as you play contract, then it'll be worth it. Fellaini was probably £10M overpriced, and Bily was probably worth half of what we paid ? that's £15M down the proverbial.

John Maxwell, have you ever coached a sporting team of any kind? If you have, then I guess you are just overreacting to my comments which you didn't read in full. If you haven't, then I don't think you could actually manage Rangers or Celtic to a title, even if I WAS your assistant.

I also happen to call my boss a cunt on a daily basis, and he gives it back to me, but we both know deep down why we do it. On Friday, I did ask for a pay rise not an hour after calling him a fat cunt, and guess what: next week my cheque is going to be bit bigger. It's called selling yourself a bit higher, and explaining why your employer should invest more in you ? I actually understand why BK doesn't give DM more money.

And in response to your question about players living in a cardboard box, a bit of an exaggeration, but do you remember a promising young Ajax winger called Andy van der Meyde? What did playing under Moyes's dictatorship do for his life?

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