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What price a trophy?

By Shaun Sparke :  20/04/2011 :  Comments (98) :
Since David Moyes took over at Everton in March 2002 there have been a total of 28 domestic trophies (Premier League, FA Cup and League Cup) won. They have been shared out amongst 9 different clubs. Man Utd and Chelsea have won eight apiece, Arsenal have won five, with Blackburn, Liverpool, Middleborough, Portsmouth, Spurs and Birmingham each winning a solitary cup.

In this same time period, Everton?s average league position has been near enough 9th and we have reached one cup final.

Portsmouth and Middleborough both seem well on the way to oblivion despite spending large amounts of money for the return of just one trophy. Would any of us swap places with them for the sake of having won one trophy!?!

Blackburn seem to be in freefall and are going to have to fight to the very end to avoid the drop. Whatever happened to all of that money Uncle Jack ploughed into the club?

Spurs keep spending money that 'Arry don?t 'ave but have been rewarded with doing something we couldn?t by actually qualifying for the group stages of the Champions League. They are going to have a hard job to repeat that this year though despite all the financial outlay.

Liverpool... well, what can I say about that lot? They have spent more than most and are still quite crap. Kinky Kenny will walk when the going gets tough and, despite already spending £75 million, I would still take our squad over theirs.

Birmingham managed to land the League Cup this year but, up until recently, they were in the bottom 3... and are still not totally safe. I bet nobody will remember who won the League Cup come the start of next season.

This brings me nicely around to the point of this article. It is quite clear that, despite the odd team winning one of the cups every now and again, most of the silverware is dished out between those with the biggest bank balances. Our current financial position means that there is no way we can hope to win trophies on a consistent basis without our finances changing dramatically.

The club continue to tell us that they are forever looking for investment but there is none out there that is right for this club. The board are continually and sometimes justifiably harangued by some, stating that other clubs have found investment during this period of 24/7 searching. Having said that, don?t mention that too loudly around any Notts County or Portsmouth fans, they will soon tell you that not all investors are what they seem. Maybe our board are right to be cautious and are not as stagnant and incompetent as we are lead to believe... (Cough cough ? Kings Dock and Kirkby, er, let?s just sweep them under the carpet for now.)

I am not going to defend this board as I would be quite rightly shouted down and would be offered enough evidence to prove how they have often misled fans and missed opportunities to bring this club further. I will however put my neck on the block and defend David Moyes. This is a man who has infuriated me at times with the negative style of football and hoofball served up in the past; I have sat in my seat bored to death sometimes watching us pass it sideways this season with no end result. Up until a month ago, when we had most of our strongest squad together, we were only 5 points off the bottom of the league.

So why do I feel the need to defend him? Well, I have read through a few posts on here today where Moyes has been crucified and accused of giving fuck all in return for his massive salary, and has been labelled as Kenwright's puppet. Yes, in terms of trophies won, I totally agree he has failed to deliver... but I would sooner be where we are now than struggling in the Championship with memories of a glorious cup win several seasons ago being the only thing to cheer me up.

Ah, I can hear cries of that well worn-out phrase now that I seem to be settling for midtable mediocrity. (Can somebody please come up with something more original?) Oh and don?t forget to add the 'Moyes apologist' phrase as well, as that seems to be another favourite from those with little imagination. It?s time to face a few facts: unless we receive a massive input of new money, we are never going to be able to challenge for honours. Sure, I agree with our editor that money doesn?t dictate the style of football that we can play, but what price could we pay with this expansive football from footballers who do not have the skill to do it? If the price is our place amongst the elite then I don?t think it is a price worth paying. Moyes is never going to change his principles; he is what he is and has kept us in the Premier League on the back of these principles. Ask any other club apart from the Big 3 if they would love the stability that Moyes has brought and it would be met with a resounding "YES, PLEASE!!!"

We as Evertonians expect much more from our club; we have a proud and long history and every single one of us wants us to play better football and wants us to win trophies. None of us wants to settle for mediocrity, but some of us also realise that for the time being we have to work with what we have got and I can't think of a better man than David Moyes to keep our heads above water. He has proved it time and time again that he has the stomach for a fight.

If the day arrives when we do finally get that much needed investment then it will be time to look if David Moyes is the right man for the job. For the time being I suggest that we count our blessings that we do have somebody who knows what it takes to keep us treading water. The thought of what could happen to us under the leadership of somebody like Allardyce, Grant, McClaren et al is truly frightening.

Reader Comments

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Glen Anderson
1   Posted 20/04/2011 at 15:12:15

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I for one agree 100%. Very well crafted article with a clear and balanced argument.

Despite that, I fully expect a sizeable number of fans on this site to disagree with you. Many on here believe that another manager would bring success and attractive football with the money that Moyes has had. I don't.
Lee Hind
2   Posted 20/04/2011 at 15:43:17

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Agree 100%, we're light years from where we were when Moyes arrived.
Tony J Williams
3   Posted 20/04/2011 at 15:41:32

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I get confused when we have a game like the ones against Spuds this year and the likes of games against Citteh last season and think why on earth can't we do this more often?....then I realise the squad we have is too small and the players we have, while we love them, aren't as good as we believe them to be.

I want Everton to win silverware and would glady finish 17th one season to get a cup.

The problem faced by Moyes is that he is trying to get out of his defensive mode and play better footy, the start of the season we were playing some lovely football but due to having no-one of note up front we were losing/drawing games. We all know how much we hate the back to the walls hoof it footy, our players are trying to get away from that but they simply aren't good enough. They don't move fast enough, don't create space fast enough etc

I have often asked for an explanation from posters who constantly slag our players off, calling them for everything, yet in the next breath slagging Moyes off for not getting these useless players to beat the Chelskis and Arsenils in the league.

We don't know what Moyes would do with proper investiment in the team and would he be a good enough man manager with the big egos of the "bigger" players, as we all know he holds grudges for ages
Stephen Kenny
4   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:16:52

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A good and true comparison about money spent to trophies won.

Another of note for me would be time given to each manager in the quest for trophies?

9 years and one cup final with almost a decade to build your own club seems a poor return to me.
Mark Stone
5   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:22:18

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What cup have Blackburn won since Moyes took over in MARCH 2002?
Stephen Kenny
6   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:20:56

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Sorry forgot to add it's arguable that Allardyce, Grant and Mclaren have all achieved more in the game than Moyes.

I don't consider them better myself but how do you judge if not by achievement's made?
Mark Stone
7   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:24:13

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I don't think there have been many managers sacked for failing to win a trophy - unless they have been manager of one of the big spending clubs. Most managers get the boot because they are leading a club towards relegation.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Michael Evans
8   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:29:11

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Shaun - a very well written piece.

The issue of how Moyes should be judged is a battle for hearts and minds on TW.

However that creates a dilemma.

In my mind, I would probably have to say that I agree with most of your comments.

However, as a, cough splutter, 40 something it was my privilege to watch Reid, Steven et al in their prime. They were winners and the football at times was quite simply breathtaking to watch.

Therefore, my heart tells my mind to STUFF reasoned debate and logic in relation to the Moyes and the present day team.

Put another way ... must we really accept that this is as good as it gets ?

Tim Spring
9   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:11:51

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There is so much speculation about where we would be if Moyes had money, or if another manager came in. I'm as prone as anyone to waffle on about how close we are to the sky four if only we had a bit more wonga, but looking at the facts the stabilisation of Everton by Moyes is clearcut.
The only time I have wished for a "winning" manager was the cup final when we looked void of ideas after half time.
Could a Hiddink, Mourinho, Del Bosque, Ferguson have got us playing better football? It's hard the argue both for or against Moyes' tactics as the debate comes down to 2 things. 1. Getting players to play at the best of their ability and 2. playing tactics that compliment the 11 players as best as possible.
Moyes has tendancies to be negative (I'm being kind!) but he has kept us in and around when other clubs have dramatically fallen. Now if only he had some money.............
Shaun Sparke
10   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:39:32

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Mark, I was counting the League Cup they won in season 2001-02. I am not sure what month the final was played in so forgive me if I got that one wrong.
Neil McKinney
11   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:35:35

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Thanks Shaun.

Stephen #5 - Allardyce? What's he won again?

And Grant? Outside of Israel what's he won?

I see your point about "how do you judge if not by achievement's made?" and at least you don't go as far as claiming that those managers are better, but to my knowledge Allardyce has won nothing other than a 1st div play-off. I believe Souness was manager at Blackburn when they won the league cup and as Mark states above that was before Moyes took over at Everton. Grant did well in Israel but it's not really a benchmark.
David S Shaw
12   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:48:38

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I wouldn't have a trophy at the expense of relegation, but give me 17th place and a trophy for sure.
Ben Howard
13   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:33:48

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Great article Shaun. Well-balanced and I agree 100%.

I think Moyes is capable of playing the attractive, expansive football that people crave, as was proven at the end of last season. We seem to grow into this type of football when confidence is high, off the back of a string of good results (often achieved whilst playing back-to-the-wall stuff).

We started this season full of confidence but, in my opinion, without the required personnel. Moyes has admitted that his gamble to start the season short of strikers backfired. We were passing it around as well as anybody, poor man's Arsenal if you will, but had nobody to finish the moves apart from an ageing, injury prone Saha and an inexperienced striker brought to the club from two divisions below.

If we can start the season in the same way but with a few crucial additions to the first team then maybe we can make some real strides.
Tony J Williams
14   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:42:03

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The most likely cup a team ouside of the "Sky 4/5/6" will win is the Carling/Worthless/Whatever name it's called now Cup. Apart from Portmouthand US, the last 20 FA cups has been shared between the SKy 4 (made up it's changed this season too)

The "bigger" teams usually play their kids who get them through to the later rounds then they start getting the big players out.

I would glady finish bottom half of the table to win it though.
Stephen Kenny
15   Posted 20/04/2011 at 16:57:47

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Hughton, Benitez, Curbishley, Hughes, Allardyce to name a few. I don't see what that has to do with my post however?


What's Moyes won? Allardyce has taken Bolton into Europe with no money to spend, he also took them to the Cup Final and got them promoted, something Moyes never achieved in his Championship years. Comparable?
Stephen Kenny
16   Posted 20/04/2011 at 17:06:45

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Grant was a slip away from being a European Cup winner; Moyes faints going past Birkenhead!
Tony J Williams
17   Posted 20/04/2011 at 17:28:49

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Stephen, and Moyes was only 26 points away from winning the league last year. An inch is as good as a mile and if my auntie had bollocks she would be my uncle etc etc
Stephen Kenny
18   Posted 20/04/2011 at 17:58:11

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Tony, an inch isn't as good as a mile ? ask yer bird!

OK, to put it another way, he took a side to a European and FA Cup Final, better than Moyes has done, with a much worse side in Pompey!!
Mark Stone
19   Posted 20/04/2011 at 18:07:38

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"Mark, I was counting the league cup they won in season 2001-02. I am not sure what month the final was played in so forgive me if I got that one wrong."

February, Shaun

You are forgiven.
Gareth Humphreys
20   Posted 20/04/2011 at 18:19:07

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Manager of the year... x 3.
Next topic please.
Michael Kenrick
21   Posted 20/04/2011 at 18:27:21

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Moyes has proven one thing beyond all doubt in his 9+ years at this club: he's not good enough to win a trophy for Everton. No amount of LMA trinkets will make up for that.

For some of our fans, it's apparently enough that he prevents relegation. Finish mid-table, fail in all cup competitions, and they are happy for another season. I think that's a shocking measure for Evertonian expectations.

Most financial measures seem to suggest, with our resources, we should be mid-table (say 11th or 12th) but we have a better-than-average manager whose astounding salary (>£3M) should by rights be worth at least another 6 places. So that means 5th / 6th is what he SHOULD be achieving. Instead, it's 9th on average; an admirable 4th in a good year; a shocking 17th in a bad one.

I still firmly believe, given all the foregoing on this and countless other threads, that Moyes could and should be doing a better job as manager of Everton. Despite protestations to the contrary, I've read nothing on here to change that view, which is very firmly held, and is reinforced in almost every game I watch, where he consistently fails to bring the best out of the players and resources he has. Where his many failings are manifested ad nauseam...

In my book, he's managed to overperform only once in his long and illustrious history as manager of Everton Football Club. For me, that is simply not good enough.
Mark Stone
22   Posted 20/04/2011 at 18:08:27

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My question was:
Which managers have been sacked for failing to win a trophy - unless they have been manager of one of the big spending clubs?

Your answer was:

Hughton, Benitez, Curbishley, Hughes, Allardyce

Benitez: Liverpool are (and were under Benitez) a big spending club

Curbishley: Resigned from Charlton (after doing a sterling job over 15 years I might add). Resigned from West Ham because of their transfer policy. Never been sacked.
Hughes: Resigned from Blackburn to join Man City. Sacked from Man City but they are (and were under Hughes) BIG SPENDING CLUB; Still employed by Fulham

That leaves Hughton and Allardyce. Neither of whom were sacked for failing to win a trophy - but rather because the club they were managing were owned by plonkers!

Incidentally, you ask 'What's Moyes won? Allardyce has taken Bolton into europe with no money to spend, he also took them to the cup final and got them promoted, something Moyes never achieved in his championship years. Comparable?'

Answer: Moyes has taken Everton to Europe and to an FA Cup final with very little money. So yes, comparable. As the 3rd comment what a fucking ridiculous statement. David Moyes only had ONE SEASON IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP!!! That was the season after he got Preston promoted from League 1 - and in that season he even managed to get them to the final of the play offs - after that he joined us. So don't bang on about what he didn't achieve in his Championship years!!!

Mark Stone
23   Posted 20/04/2011 at 18:46:09

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OK, to put it another way, he took a side to a European and FA Cup Final, better than Moyes has done, with a much worse side in Pompey!!

By European Cup Final I'm assuming you mean Chelsea ... cos Pompey aint been to one! As for taking Pompey to an FA Cup final and that being better than what Moyes has done for Everton? Mate they got fucking relegated - and we've been to an FA Cup final too, remember?!
Mike Gwyer
24   Posted 20/04/2011 at 18:17:06

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Not sure what your trying to say.

Your heading "what price a trophy" speaks louder than your text. Basically you are saying that you support Moyes, Kenwright leaves you with a lot of unanswered questions, and you would love EFC to win something. Well, you are sitting with a lot blues thinking that lot.

However, if your said "what price on consistency" then you will open up a whole can or worms. Everton consistently lose to lower league teams in any of the cup competitions, top 4 teams do not (consistently I said). Everton consistently fuck up against the bottom half teams in the EPL, even worse this scenario is now happing at GP. Top 4 teams will win 1 nil or 4 nil, but either way they will win games against lower opposition in the EPL.

Everton must be a punters nightmare but hey if Moyes could bottle consistency we would probably win the league. We all know that we will give United a good game, we may lose, but we will give them a good game. Then the following Saturday, Wigan away - well here we go. Will the team be bothered, will the boys wait till we are 1 or 2 nil down before we start playing - fuck knows, but that teams or ours could do with a good dose of consistency.

Stephen Kenny
25   Posted 20/04/2011 at 18:46:24

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All manager's are sacked or not based on whether they win or not, based on the expectations of that club and it's fans.

Even the Charlton's of this world got rid of a manager because he didn't win enough, they wanted to be better. Hindsight may say it was a mistake for them but at least they went for it.

Were a much bigger club than them and our fan's are talking of survival, tread water etc. Why? Why not aspire to winning and ask what need's to be done to get there?

Money plays a massive part in being successful, so does time. Moyes has had plenty of one but only a bit of the other.

I notice you conveniently ignored the aspect of time. Moyes has had 9 years of managing a PREMIER LEAGUE side, others who are compared have had to get teams up, stay up, build a squad,and change clubs. Moyes has had none of these obstacles to face, yet he's won nothing!

Compare his achievements to all three manager's named in the OP and he comes off worse. Is he? I'm not saying for sure either way, but only the winners name goes on the trophy, everyone else never mattered.

His solitary notable achievement was getting us to a cup final. The same cup final contested over the course of his years by Millwall, Pompey(twice), Newcastle, southampton? Everyone wins the raffle now and again.
Andy Crooks
26   Posted 20/04/2011 at 19:02:32

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There are few threads on this site that don't turn into anti- and pro-Moyes. I am in total agreement on Michael Kenwright on this one.

Dave Wilson made a very pertinent point on another thread that his support for Moyes was based on fear of the alternative. It is a compelling argument and one which gave me pause for thought. However, I still believe that things could have been better and ? while I believe we have much to thank DM for ? I think it is time to face the fear and conquer it.

Graham Fylde
27   Posted 20/04/2011 at 19:19:32

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Mark Gwyer 'Everton consistently fuck up against the bottom half teams in the EPL' - that's a bold statement my friend. Did a random check, took last year's completed results against bottom half teams and it turns out we won 11, drew 6 and lost just the three = 39 points. Had we managed that against the top half, we'd have come third!
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
28   Posted 20/04/2011 at 19:23:38

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"Michael Kenwright"... ?!?!?

Do you want me to change that or leave it?
Dennis Stevens
29   Posted 20/04/2011 at 19:44:51

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At last the truth is out, Michael!
Dennis Stevens
30   Posted 20/04/2011 at 19:45:30

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I do think that a bolder approach in cup matches might reap rewards in terms of silverware. To be honest, I suspect that approach might be more rewarding in the League as well, but it just doesn't seem to be in Moyes's nature. It would be nice to see signs of a more adventurous spirit in the cup competitions though.
Andy Crooks
31   Posted 20/04/2011 at 19:56:45

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Michael, there is some kind of Freudian thing going on here that has got me quite worried. Maybe you should leave it on as a deterrent to others. Humble apologies.
Shaun Sparke
32   Posted 20/04/2011 at 20:26:00

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Michael, I really can't agree with your ascertation that any of our fans are happy for us to finish mid-table or to just avoid relegation. Show me one fan who would be happy with this and I will show you the red shirt they are wearing.

I do agree with you that, under the present regieme, we are unlikely to win a trophy of any description. However, the point I was trying to make but have obviously failed is that I think that before we jump on Moyes's back for a failure to bring home any silverware, we have to think carefully about where we would be without him.

If other people think that we would be better off and might have won something then fair enough. But looking at the amount of teams who have spent more or a similar amount than us but have found themselves relegated offers me some evidence that life without Moyes under the current board could become disastrous.

Paul Foster
33   Posted 20/04/2011 at 21:00:46

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Stephen Kenny, you're all over the place with this argument mate.

"OK, to put it another way, [Grant] took a side to a European and FA Cup Final, better than Moyes has done, with a much worse side in Pompey!!"

As somebody else pointed out, he took CHELSEA to a European Cup final. That's Chelsea who spent £350 million on a team to reach the European Cup Final.

I know some of you dreamers continue to reel out the line that "it's not about money". But you are quite evidently and provably wrong. It is about money. When you spend £350 million on world-class players, you tend to do alright. When you spend a net average of £2 million a year on players, you do what you can.

As for taking Pompey to an FA Cup Final, well Moyes took Everton to one too. But where Grant took got his team relegated, Moyes took over a relegation-bound team and kept them in the Premier League. Then took that same time into Europe.
Neil McKinney
34   Posted 20/04/2011 at 20:48:39

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Stephen #14

I asked what Allardyce has won. You respond with "What's Moyes won? Allardyce has taken Bolton into Europe with no money to spend, he also took them to the Cup Final and got them promoted, something Moyes never achieved in his Championship years. Comparable?" Where do I start?

Coming back with "What has Moyes won ?" Sheesh, tht'a not the point. "Comparable?" Yes it is discounting the promotion. Moyes was at Preston for only 4 years and I'm not sure but didn't Bolton beat Preston in the play-off final to get promoted? So Moyes was as near as dammit to getting promoted from the 1st div and actually won the div 2 title. Moyes has taken Everton to Europe on little money and he's taken us to a cup final.

You even said yourself "I don't consider them [inc Allardyce] better [than Moyes] myself" so why are you trying so hard to argue about Moyes not winning anything and harping on about Allardyce?

As for Grant. Again you come back with "Grant was a slip away from being a European Cup winner" if that's with Chelsea then he didn't exactly build that team and, ultimately, he didn't win it. Ifs, buts and no trophies. Strange defence in response to the simple questions I asked about what Allardyce and Grant had won.

Fine if you think Allardyce is better or has achieved more or whatever it is your saying, but he hasn't won anything which is what I asked that's all.
Mark Stone
35   Posted 20/04/2011 at 21:14:12

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Stephen, once again, I'll remind you that Charlton didn't sack Curbs, and I'll reiterate that Premier League managers from 7 down (i.e. not the big spending ones at the top) don't get sacked for not winning trophies... they get sacked for being too close to the drop.
Andrew James
36   Posted 20/04/2011 at 21:23:50

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I am not having the argument that Avram Grant is better than Davey.

Grant took over a Chelsea side that was very strong and peaking. He must get credit for reaching Moscow but he had a lot of money to spend (didn't he buy Anelka for a tidy sum in the January window?) on top of all the players Mourinho and Roman had brought in.

Then he goes to Pompey. They get relegated. The FA Cup Final meant absolutely nothing and makes you wonder what on earth he was doing in the League matches??

Finally he goes to West Ham and, despite cup exploits, they are now in severe trouble. It takes a very special manager to get relegated twice on the spin.
Andrew James
37   Posted 20/04/2011 at 21:32:50

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Mark - agreed

Unless you are in an extreme situation like Chelsea or City or, as mentioned above, your chairman is a random (Blackburn or Newcastle) sackings only happen if the board acts to prevent relegation and the dire financial consequences that come with it.

I give you West Brom this season, Hull City and Bolton the last, Sunderland and Spurs the one before that...
Trevor Mackie
38   Posted 20/04/2011 at 21:36:21

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I just can't see Moyes winning anything, certainly not here, and if he ended up at any of the ambitious clubs he'd get bombed out within a season.

He may be first and foremost about defence, but he's no defensive mastermind - perhaps that means he's a latent attacking genius! the sneaky scotsman, bet he does Tommy Cooper impressions and everything.
Guy Hastings
39   Posted 20/04/2011 at 22:16:31

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All managers' careers end in failure. It's just a matter of degree.
Dave Wilson
40   Posted 20/04/2011 at 22:20:40

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That's not quite what I meant, but I`ll admit it is the general gist. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would have very grave reservations about Kenwright choosing a successor.

I don't believe it's about facing fears; it's about not being prepared to gamble recklessly and more to the point unnecessarily with our future.

IMO, a really good choice by Kenwright may result in slight improvement in our style of play, maybe even finish a place higher. A bad choice by Kenwright could be catastrophic.

Feeling lucky today, Andy? Lucky enough to want to take a gamble when the potential winnings are nowhere near tempting enough to offset the potential loss? It's like taking 10/1 on when the odds are in reality 10/1 against.

Until Kenwright has gone, Moyes MUST stay.

Kevin Sparke
41   Posted 20/04/2011 at 23:00:43

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Shaun, either switch your spellcheck on or put down the single malt, bro!

For what it's worth, I agree with you re Moyes; consider this little cameo: On the right wing we have an Irish lad who cost the price of a decent coupe; on the the left we've a French Gueye who cost the best part of 7 weeks wages for Rooney ? two really exciting prospects who look like they'll be crowd favourites for years to come. Our young striker costs his wages and that's all ? and I believe there's 20 goals in him next season

Our neighbours have had over a billion quid's worth of strikers alone this season and are... how many points ahead of us?

We've the spending power of a midtable Championship side and but for one man would be one.

He has his faults, he has his demons and quite often he's not afraid to confront them, but I reckon we'd go a long way before we came across a better 'pound for pound' manager than Moyes.

Enjoy it while you can ? because, when he eventually leaves (and it might be much sooner than most of you think), we'll see what weight Everton really punch at.
Marcus Kendall
42   Posted 20/04/2011 at 23:31:22

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A bit harsh blaming Grant for Portsmouth's relegation, they were miles adrift when he took the job and everybody knows they were beyond saving with their dire finances.

Agreed he's bombed at West Ham though, surprised me as I thought he was a sound manager but it seems not.

Moyes is one of the better managers in the Premier League but that's not saying much as there's only a handful of managers I actually rate.
Sean Patton
43   Posted 20/04/2011 at 23:22:45

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Why does the possibility of McClaren managing Everton frighten you? The other two I can understand. To paraphrase Keegan, I would love it love it if McClaren was the next manager of Everton.

I am bemused as to why he gets such stick because as a club manager his record is very good; ok, he ballsed up the national job but he might not be suited to international coaching ? a bit like the current England boss.

Not only did he win a trophy with Middlesbrough but he got to the Uefa Cup Final at the first attempt... Moyes hasn't even got to the quarters after four tries.

He brought through a lot of youngsters which is something I feel needs to be done at Goodison, the current crop of academy players are the best since 1998 and the club require a coach to bring through as many a possible.

Let's be honest, if Everton had any realistic ambitions of success, Moyes would have been sacked years ago. Bingham, Lee and Harvey were all shown the door for doing better than Moyes has.

There is a great chance to get a guy in who has won trophies and knows the Premier League inside out.

Come on, Stevie lad, show off you scouse accent and leave the brolly at the door.
Eric Myles
44   Posted 21/04/2011 at 02:25:57

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Michael #21 ? if you're going to use Moyes's salary as a measure of where we should finish then you should remember that he's only had that current salary for 2 seasons and judge his average placing on that, 8th and currently 7th.

Then you should judge the average placing in the years when he was on a lower salary separately.

And while I'm at, it how do you calculate average placing? Finish placing divided by seasons or total points accumulated over those seasons compared to all other teams cumulative points?
Chris Bannantyne
45   Posted 21/04/2011 at 03:23:22

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I would definitely be inclined to keep Moyes until such time as Everton have money again.

Maybe he will sort out this first half of season shit, maybe not.

Given our finances the current alternative to Moyes would be an Allardyce or worse, and I would take Moyes any day. I have never seen more boring football than that under Big Sam, plus he could well get us relegated.

Yes, I will take more of the same shit from Moyes each season rather than get in some other muppet, but it doesn't mean I settle for "midtable mediocrity". I am becoming more and more frustrated by the current board, certain players, the manager, you name it, but the pragmatist in me is pretty sure that, without money, we are pretty lucky to have Moyes.
Michael Kenrick
46   Posted 21/04/2011 at 06:29:24

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I'm sorry, Shaun... it was a nicely written piece and I know what you were trying to say but I'm just not on the same planet as you. This from #32: "before we jump on Moyes's back for a failure to bring home any silverware, we have to think carefully about where we would be without him."

Why? Why even think like that? Totally hypothetical and completely meaningless to me. Moyes is the Everton manager; he has been for NINE YEARS. We are where we are: there is no other reality. Why try to examine what anyone else would have done? How can you make that the basis of any valid analysis? I simply cannot think on that level as the answer is completely undefined. It can be anything you or anyone wants and means absolutely nothing.

I don't need to look at other managers or other teams to assess what Moyes has done for Everton or how poorly he has managed the resources he's had.
Tony J Williams
47   Posted 21/04/2011 at 09:05:39

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"Totally hypothetical and completely meaningless to me" - Michael, this is the same way a lot of others feel when the old, "If so and so was here, we would have won a trophy by now" reasoning.

"Why try to examine what anyone else would have done? How can you make that the basis of any valid analysis?" - Exactly, but this basis is used at the detriment of Moyes though. Mourinho would have won the FA Cuo final etc

As Marcus states above, Moyes is one of the better managers in the Premier League....the damning fact is that there are not many of them in the Premier League, so he is probably last in the list of good managers.....but possibly some way ahead of the poor managers.

He is a good manager of a good side, he and they will never be a great side, that's the ugly truth of it.
Sam Hoare
48   Posted 21/04/2011 at 10:08:34

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MK, your Moyes-bashing argument is not entirely consistent.

You say in post 21 that 'he consistently fails to bring the best out of the players and resources he has' and yet in the same argument you say that 'with our resources, we should be mid-table (say 11th or 12th) but we have a better-than-average manager' who should be worth another 6 places!

These two statements clearly contradict each other. For what its worth i believe the latter to be closer to the truth. I would love a trophy and it is annoying that we are a weak cup side but in the league Moyes has consistently out performed and got the best out of his limited resources.
David Crowe
49   Posted 21/04/2011 at 11:57:03

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Michael Kenrick (21) I shall remember that "Moyes has proven one thing beyond all doubt in his 9+ years at this club: he's not good enough to win a trophy for Everton. No amount of LMA trinkets will make up for that". Impossible standards, Michael. Persoanlly I would argue that Osman is an example of Moyes getting the ABSOLUTE best out of a player and if he can't get the best out of his players enough how are we managing to punch above our weight most years? Sorry but Moyes IS good enough to win a trophy at Everton and if we'd had a good right back for that FA cup final I believe, Drogba wouldn't have got that equaliser and we'd have won it i.e. Moyes is good enough, just doesn't have the funds
David Crowe
50   Posted 21/04/2011 at 11:57:03

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Michael Kenrick (21) I shall remember that "Moyes has proven one thing beyond all doubt in his 9+ years at this club: he's not good enough to win a trophy for Everton. No amount of LMA trinkets will make up for that". Impossible standards, Michael. Persoanlly I would argue that Osman is an example of Moyes getting the ABSOLUTE best out of a player and if he can't get the best out of his players enough how are we managing to punch above our weight most years? Sorry but Moyes IS good enough to win a trophy at Everton and if we'd had a good right back for that FA cup final I believe, Drogba wouldn't have got that equaliser and we'd have won it i.e. Moyes is good enough, just doesn't have the funds
John Ford
51   Posted 21/04/2011 at 12:04:19

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You pays yer money yer wins yer trophy...sadly.

Moyes has the best record in premiership terms, or should I say Everton have the best record, outside of the 'old' sky four since 2003.

Tottenham may take the 'best of the rest' label soon with their spending. but in terms of premiership position Moyes has excelled. OK thats all relative but his net 3m spend each season is considerably lower than our competitors.To say he hasnt managed resources well doesnt stack up in any empirical assessment. Ok we all have our views on him and not all these are based on a careful analysis of relative league positions and spend, so im not suggesting there isnt an argument against Moyes. d ratIher be in our position than any outside of the rich blessed sky posse. Given that id still rather be swimming with the big fishees but what can you do?

The bare facts taken on their own show Moyes to be an effective manager.
Shaun Sparke
52   Posted 21/04/2011 at 12:46:28

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That?s an interesting point that you make Michael regarding me offering a hypothetical situation on what we would have done without Moyes. You are absolutely right of course, it is impossible to say whether we would have improved or heaven forbid became a poorer team without him. But to me, this is what football and having opinions is all about.

Every time we sign a new player we are hypothesising that the team will be improved with the introduction of the said player. The proof of whether our hypothesis is proved correct will become apparent when we see that player play and how he fits into the team. Sometimes the manager gets it right i.e. Cahill and Baines and sometimes he gets it wrong as in the case of Krøoldrup. We could all hypothesise that if we signed Messi before the start of next season then we would win the league. None of us know this of course but does this mean we should dismiss it completely because it is not an absolute fact.

We are from different planets but we both want the same thing. We both want to see Everton playing attractive football and picking up silverware. I have many reservations as to whether Moyes could ever fulfil this even with a shed load of money, but again that is merely a hypothesis. His Nine years have shown us that he is a competent manager who has what it takes to keep this club chugging along in what many regard as the toughest league in the world. This may not be good enough for a set of fans who aspire to much more than chugging along... but, given the financial restraints he is under, he has won the trust of many fans that are realistic enough to know that, without new investment he is probably the best that we can get at the moment. That last sentence may make you want you to throw cushions at your computer screen and criticise me for a lack of ambition, but nothing could be further from the truth. I am not a Moyes fan, I am an Everton fan.

Kevin, thanks for pointing out my atrocious spelling in my earlier article. I should be dragged outside and beaten to within an inch of my life for such an heinous abuse of the English language. I do of course have the excuse of having a sleep deprived childhood in which my elder brother used to come home at unearthly hours and keep me awake by playing John Cooper Clarke and Monty Python records when I had school the next day... Sadly it always seems to be the English lessons that I used to miss in the mornings!

David Booth
53   Posted 21/04/2011 at 12:48:06

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This constant criticism of David Moyes because he 'hasn't won anything' is such a cheap jibe.

Apart from a select few teams who have intermittently won the League Cup or the FA Cup by virtue of the 'big three' not being bothered, no-one has.

What Moyes has done is make Everton consistently THE best of the rest.

And I believe he wil keep improving until he does win something - or hopefully many things.

More funds at his disposal would surely accelerate that process, but with things as they stand, no-one would do a better job.

Just look at the team we have now, compared to what it was when he took over.

He's made us a team to beat again, instead of being a team that anyone could fancy their chances against.

Where are all those people now who screamed for Coyle, Hughes, Di Matteo and even the likes of Holloway a few months ago?

Nowhere. Just like the managers they so vociferously championed!

Tommy Coleman
54   Posted 21/04/2011 at 13:40:48

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Shaun Sparke - Just one question for you, how many years will it take before you get sick of Moyes not winning a trophy or improving our football style/tactics ?

I think if Moyes was in charge for another 9 years we'd still be all having the same argument.

Well written article by the way, a bit too pro-Moyes for me though. :)
Shaun Laycock
55   Posted 21/04/2011 at 14:05:23

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What would be interesting would be a comparison season by season of points gained per pounds spent (someone with a lot more time than me!!!). Would that explode or back up the arguement that Moyes is one of the best 'pound for pound' manager in the Premiership?
James Cadwaladr
56   Posted 21/04/2011 at 14:39:25

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Moyes shouldnt go. But if he did there is only one contender for me. Gus Poyet! Forget the rest.
Scott Goin
57   Posted 21/04/2011 at 14:29:36

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How often can Everton be expected to win silverware based on their finances? Once every 10 years? A cup run has a lot to do with luck, form, injuries, depth, tactics, etc. The fact that Moyes hasn't won anything in 9 years at Everton isn't outside of the realm of probability. So many things have to go right for a club to pick up silverware and the majority of them are outside of the manager's control.

All I ask is that going into every year, Everton supporters have hope for Europe and/or silverware. As far as I'm concerned, Moyes has given that to us.

Moyes isn't the best manager. That's obvious. But given the restrictions he's been under, he's performed admirably. I just wish he weren't so stubborn and negative at times.
Dennis Stevens
58   Posted 21/04/2011 at 14:53:45

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From what I can see the pro-Moyes argument is one of fear : he's the best we can get in our current situation : nobody could do better under the circumstances ; anybody else may well get the club relegated. However, although I like Moyes & consider him a good manager, he's not a great one & isn't a winner. I don't think he has what it takes to land silverware & I don't think a change of clubs or finances will make any difference. So despite the need to make changes at Board level being more important, in my view, if we do want to see Everton lift some silverware in the future then I can't see it unless Moyes is replaced.
Scott Goin
59   Posted 21/04/2011 at 15:24:31

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There is "an element" of fear when you discuss change. If you look at Everton's finances, it's very easy to see the club fighting relegation if the change doesn't go perfectly. However, fear of the unknown makes up less than half of the reason to keep Moyes on (in my view at least).

It's simple. If you are a good team, then it doesn't take as much luck to win something. If you are average team, it takes quite a bit of luck. If you are a poor team, the freakin stars need to align along with blessing from all the gods in the heavens.

Everton are a good team. Moyes has kept us a good team for a long time. That means that if one or two things go right for us, we're capable of great performances and astounding runs of form.

Moyes may not be a great tactician but he consistently puts us in positions to win and for that I'm grateful.
Stephen Kenny
60   Posted 21/04/2011 at 15:18:38

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I said that all the manager's named in the op had a record of achievement at least as good as David Moyes.

Mark went off on a tangent about how and why managers get sacked. I at least tried to answer his question although I couldn't be bothered to go and look up when and why ambitious clubs had sacked thier manager in the hope of improvement. He never tried to answer mine.


You admit that Moyes/Allardyce records are comparable? So why is Moyes better than Allardyce? Style of Football? Transfer dealings? Public perception? It's a fair question that a stout supporter of David Moyes should be able to answer.

To clarify, my original point was that compared to many of his peer's including the 3 mentioned in the OP he has had a great deal of time to win a trophy of some kind, other's have not had that luxury, something that I believe is a vital factor that many managers are not afforded.

Mark, Neil, Paul,

Let me ask a question that I hope you will answer honestly,

If in 10 years time the premier league status quo has been maintained and we are still 5-8th best, but we have not won a trophy, will you be happy with the situation?

It's not a trick question, it's how I see the next decade with Moyes in charge.
Shaun Sparke
61   Posted 21/04/2011 at 15:48:45

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Tommy (54) There is an easy answer to your question. I am sick of it already. It has been 16 years since we last won a trophy and 24 years since we were last champions. Moyes has been here for 9 of those years. The million dollar question is whether we would be better off with or without him. I personally think that he has done a decent job. Now as for the board............Well that's another matter.
Neil McKinney
62   Posted 21/04/2011 at 16:22:55

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Stephen #60 - This is getting tiresome now.

This to and fro atarted because I asked you, in response to your statement that Allardyce (amongst others) had achieved more than Moyes, what has Allardyce won?

I made no statements about Moyes at the time.

"stout supporter of David Moyes" labels, labels. I challenged your statement about Allardyce, it is you who has decide I'm a Moyes supporter. I get as frustrated as the next man with some of Moyes' flaws, but at the moment I see nobody else to champion for the job. Unlike some, I do not think that ANYONE would be better. Do you? We need to sort the board out first then maybe we can look at whether Moyes is the man to carry us forward.

You have failed to come back with any sound response to my original question. And in answer to yours, I would probably want a change in manager, but I can't be sure as it's a completely hypothetical question and has absolutely no bearing on anything that we have been debating.

I'll leave the rest to Mark and Paul because I can't be bothered anymore.
Ray Roche
63   Posted 21/04/2011 at 16:29:31

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David Crowe @49

I'm getting a bit tired of people trotting out the
"if we'd had a good right back for that FA cup final I believe-we'd have won it" crap. IF we'd had a right sided mid fielder who could offer some cover to Hibbert, IF that gobshite Howard Webb hadn't been so keen to produce his yellow card and book Hibbert after 8 minutes making Hibbert shit scared to throw in a tackle against possibly the best left sided attack in the League, then,and only then, we may have won the Cup. Give all sides of the argument, not just the bit that suits you. It's like America and history. Always being rewritten to show them winning the War. (always being rewritten to prove Moyes is crap)
Dean Adams
64   Posted 21/04/2011 at 16:33:15

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We played 3 of the top 5 in getting to the FA cup final in 2009. How much luck was that? Most winners of the FA cup would expect to draw 1 or 2 at most. Moyes was very unlucky and the semi final in the league cup we found a Chelsea side with luck on thier side.
The only component that Moyes is missing is LUCK. We have some potential pace in our side for the future if the youngsters can hack the pace.
There are in life some very miserable ang negative people. I imagine that they were spoilt kids who now have to fend for themselves and just dont like the harshness of reality.
Andy Crooks
65   Posted 21/04/2011 at 17:37:28

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David Booth, if David Moyes has NOW made us the team to beat again why were we not the team to beat in August, September, October etc. I certainly never threw up some of the names you mention as a replacement. The last nine years have been a good time to be Everton manger. I believe we should have won something in that period. The fact that we haven't is an indictment of the coach.
Stephen Kenny
66   Posted 21/04/2011 at 18:35:29

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Getting Bolton promoted and keeping them in the prem, establishing them in this league and taking them into Europe through that avenue is IMO equal to what Moyes has done at Everton, a much bigger club with bigger budgets.

You asking me what has Allardyce ever won was clearly in defence of Moyes.

The reason I responded with what has Moyes won? Was clearly because neither have won a trophy of note, ever.
Steve Pugh
67   Posted 21/04/2011 at 18:31:40

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"The last nine years have been a good time to be Everton manager. " - why?

You make it sound as though Moyes has had everything easy over the last nine years. Has he been given more money to spend than Smith, Kendall, Royle et al? Have the board rebuffed all offers for the best players at the club allowing him to build the best squad possible? Have other clubs competing against us struggled for funding? Has he got a top quality board supporting him with money and expertise?

Tell me one good thing that has happened to Everton over the last nine years that Moyes hasn't been involved in.
Dennis Stevens
68   Posted 21/04/2011 at 19:23:58

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So Scott, you'd retain Moyes on the basis that he's only a bit of luck away from winning something? I kind of agree in that I think he's built a squad that could win & could have won something with a bit a luck. However, I suspect that a little more boldness on the part of our manager is also required & I just don't see that trait in Moyes any more.
Andy Crooks
69   Posted 21/04/2011 at 19:34:22

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Steve, your last question is unanswerable. Unless it's something like the quality of the pies improving, which I doubt, what could happen that he couldn't have been involved in?

Why has it been a good time to be Everton manager? He is never going to be sacked; even when he flirted with relegation, his job was never under threat. The emergence of the Sky Four reduced expectation and provided him with the money get out clause. He has had significant money to spend and has been able to break the club record more than once. He has had the goodwill of the majority of Evertonians for years. This is changing and, in my view, rightly so.

Finally, he earns, even allowing for mega inflation, vastly more than any manager in our history. Yes, Steve, it's been nine years of hell for him.

Stephen Kenny
70   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:08:28

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I forgot to answer your question.

Yes I believe there are a number of potential managers that would be honoured to manage Everton and would do a better job than Moyes with this squad. I do however give Moyes all the credit in the world, and have done for a long time for building such a good squad on a tight budget.
Simon Jenkins
71   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:15:55

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Andy #69 - 'This is changing'.

No it isn't. How do you justify such comments?

After the season we have just had, with 5 games to go we still have a faint chance of a Europa place, and a bonafide chance of a top 6 finish - which WOULD be an improvement on last season.

People on here have simply got to be far more realistic if they want to be taken seriously.

Everyone knows - and have known for a LONG time - that for us to get into the top 4/5, we desperately need finance. We haven't got that and we won't be getting that, bar a miracle. There is nothing you or I can do about that; no amount of leaflets or special scarves worn will change that.

And ultimately, no manager could do any better than Moyes in his position. I vehemently believe that. In addition to a dose of realism, an amount of acceptancy of our position has to come into play.

We can all go on about the past and how we 'deserve' to win things because we did 15-20 years ago, but frankly that is classic Kopite behaviour - there's no divine right to win anything, and more so than any other time in our 133 year history, trophy success is intrinsically linked to healthy/wealthy finance. There will always be the odd Stokes and Birminghams, but the real success will be contested be the richest teams, and we aren't one of them.

Simon Jenkins
72   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:25:08

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I completely disagree with Michael Kendrick post #21 and find his continued anti-Moyes vitriol embarrassing and unjustified.
Andy Crooks
73   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:30:49

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Simon, I should have said that this is changing on this forum. Whether it is changing at games is something I tried to look at on another thread. I have been logging on to this site for a number of years and have no doubt that there is much more anti-Moyes comment. Certainly my own views have changed.
Dave Wilson
74   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:04:43

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"Flirted with relegation" ha ha ha, you sound more desperate by the day Andy. Even when we finished 17th we`d already secured enough points by March.

Unlike his five predecessors Moyes has never had sleepless nights worrying about the drop - no matter how hard you try to rewrite history
Scott Goin
75   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:17:59

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Absolutely I agree that Moyes needs to be more bold and aggressive when it comes to certain games. But there's nothing inherent in Moyes tactics that keep us from winning trophies. The tactics and team selection may hurt our chances by like 10-15% percent but we're still capable of winning with them. Like any manager, he's got his strengths and his weaknesses. I'd grade him out like this (0-100 scale, 50 being average):

Tactics - 45
Ability to change Tactics depending on situation - 25
Talent evaluation - 65
Money management - 75
Organization - 75
Training & Preparation - 55
Motivation - 70
Team Selection - 40
Substitutions - 50
Player Development - 60

I'm sure I'm missing some vital areas. I give him the worst grade in his ability to adapt in regards to tactics (and team selection). It's almost regrettable that we didn't lose more early in the season as Moyes was starting to doubt his tactics. But now that we're winning again, he'll probably go back to being stubborn.

I think his organization and motivation is what keeps us going late into the season. And I'll say that the 4-5-1 is not a bad formation, especially against aggressive teams. But we should really be playing more 4-4-2 or other variants against weaker sides.

So basically I feel that, while his faults will lower our chances of taking home silverware, his other abilities actually make up for it. And if he could ever learn to adapt a little quicker and be a little more willing to drop non-form players, Moyes could be one of the top managers in the game.
Andy Crooks
76   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:43:47

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Dave, you are like my own Jiminy Cricket. I can't sneak in a sly negative comment anywhere!
David Booth
77   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:23:34

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Andy Crooks: Apart from Manchester United, every other team in the division has had a prolonged barren spell. Ours just happened to be at the start of the season again!

So that question applies to 18 other managers. Sack them all as well?

What ought we to have won in the last nine years please?

No-one but the Mancs, Arsenal and Chelsea have won the title.

A couple of no-marks have had 15 minutes of short-lived fame bagging a cup, thanks to more than the luck of the draw and the combined disinterest of the aforementioned three teams.

Meanwhile, under David Moyes's stewardship we have steadily chipped away until, as we stand, we are now confident enough to begin expecting/demanding better. That in itself is tangible evidence of what he has achieved so far.

The fact we haven't is down to the state of modern Premier League (how I hate that term) football. Money not only talks, it shouts everyone else into submission.

Right now, regardless of our history and heritage, we are getting stronger, increasingly respected, ever more hard to beat and deemed superior to the vast majority of teams we play.

Just look at how many of our players are coveted by others: Baines, Jagielka, Fellaini, Rodwell, Arteta, Cahill, Colman. Others, such as Distin, Howard and Beckford (who I really believe will prove to be an inspired FREE signing), combine to create a pretty impressive foundation for the future.

I did not say you suggested the others as possible candidates. But would you care to suggest someone who you think could/would have done better ? and won something?

Finally, do you ever have anything positive to say? All you seem to do is criticise the manager and all who take an optimistic stance on here.

Michael Kenrick
78   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:50:05

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Simon (#71) ? "Everyone knows - and have known for a LONG time - that for us to get into the top 4/5, we desperately need finance."

Moyes has proved before that this is not necessarily true; indeed a team that is coached well can perform better than the sum of its parts. That's what some of us expect from the highly paid manager of Everton FC, and Moyes has in the past said similar things when talking of his own expectations. He's changed his tune a little over time but he certainly does not reflect your defeatist attitude, which for an Evertonian I find shocking.

"No manager could do any better than Moyes in his position. I vehemently believe that." ? The manager who clearly could do better in Moyes's position is... Moyes himself. That is the only consideration of any meaning for me. He is the Everton manager; he certainly should have done a far better job in the first half of the season than he did.

And I will not accept that our failings were all down to the players. If players are not performing, it is the manager's job to make the hard decisions and make changes to improve team performances and results. Moyes failed in this, his fundamental task, at a time when he did not have the excuse of injuries or (possibly enforced) loans.

Your final paragraph is intolerable nonsense. No-one is saying we deserve anything, and to write such garbage and play the kopite card in that way is utterly shameful behavour for an Evertonian.
Dennis Stevens
79   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:35:12

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Simon, it doesn't matter how vehemently you believe something, it doesn't make that view reality ? just your opinion.

You're quite right that those with the deepest pockets would be expected to be in the pack chasing silverware, but that shouldn't be an excuse for not trying to prove there's another way. Moyes does a good job & to an outsider we seem to consistently "punch above our weight", but there aren't too many seasons when I don't find myself looking back, comparing the periods of drastic underperformance with those where we suddenly go on a run where we can give anybody a game & get a result, wondering what might have been.

As with the current season it can't all be down to lack of resources when one considers the poorest half of this season was when we had most everybody available & fit ? yet in the second half of the season, as we've lost many first team players & used more fringe players, our results have not only picked up but remained consistently better. Money is a big, big plus but it isn't everything ? otherwise RS wouldn't still be waiting for their next League Title after over twenty years.

Dennis Stevens
80   Posted 21/04/2011 at 20:53:36

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Scott, I agree with most of what you say there. I wouldn't say it's necessarily Moyes tactics generally at fault, but it certainly can be in specific matches.

The classic example of this was the away leg against Sporting Lisbon where it quickly became apparent that we were being far too cautious, ceding possession & territory, presumably with the objective of hanging on to what we had arrived with. This was against a side apparently low on confidence after a poor run of form domestically, whose supporters didn't turn up in any great number as they expected their team to be taken apart. Moyes made the mistake of handing the initiative to the opposition & got his deserved reward.

I just think that with Moyes we can expect safety, occasional excitement, but no glory.

Andy Crooks
81   Posted 21/04/2011 at 21:02:48

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David, I hope I don't criticise all those who take an optimistic stance on this site. If it seems that I do I apologize. What I intend to do is disagree with their opinions and say why. I genuinely want to be optimistic and deplore the term apologist.
Dave Wilson
82   Posted 21/04/2011 at 21:00:30

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You're perfectly correct in saying it's the manager's job to do something about underperforming players.

Moyes did exactly that when he dropped all three of his misfiring strikers at West Ham and he was hammered when we didnt win. But look at how Beckford and Saha performed since that boot up the arse? They were different players... yet people still moan like fuck about it.

BTW to this day I still havent heard one single complaint about Saha, Beckford and the Yak being left out the week before at Eastlands. Funny that.
Michael Kenrick
83   Posted 21/04/2011 at 21:40:05

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Dave Wilson (#81)

I think that was just before Christmas, right? Are you suggesting it took half a season for Dithering Dave to take any decisive action?

Truth be told, the more likely reason for those two results (good at City; not so much at West Ham) was the absence of Arteta and Pienaar at the Eastlands, and their return for the Boelyn game.

Why am I not surprised to read that these more crucial changes were forced by suspension and injury...
Simon Jenkins
84   Posted 21/04/2011 at 22:00:39

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Michael, we are 7th in the league, with a potential top 6 finish on offer. Not in the bottom 4. Where do you think we could/should be? Realistically? Above Utd/Arsenal/Chelsea? No chance. Above Spurs/City? We can beat either team on our day, but consistently do better than either money bags teams?

You cannot continually blame Moyes for this. It is laughable and ridiculous. No other manager could do any better. If you think someone could, name them for the purposes of discussion. The 'Dithering Dave' stuff is dated nonsense.

Name me another Prem manager that has taken a chance on a top League One striker on a Bosman and managed to get 9 Prem league goals out of them in their debut season, nearly double figures. Another manager who spotted an Irish lad like Coleman and signed him for £60k, and through careful handling and coaching cultivated him into a full-capped, PFA Young Player of the Year nominee? Paid relative pittances for stalwarts like Arteta and Cahill?

Teams have bad spells and runs of form. Times when they just can't get going. Ultimately, the league table never lies.

Dennis #78 - just because you disagree with me, that doesn't make your opinion reality either. All I am saying is the vast majority of match-going Evertonians, who follow Everton home and away, spending thousands of pounds a year, absolutely love Moyes, sing his name at every match, and to say there's any sort of backlash is nonsense. It simply is not there, and trying to push that there is something there is fictional and agenda driven.
Andy Crooks
85   Posted 21/04/2011 at 22:18:59

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Sorry, David Booth, but I'm like a dog with a bone on this one. Don't I ever have anything positive to say? Well how about the following:

In the last few months, I have praised and defended Tim Howard; likewise Leon Osman. All season I have praised and defended Jermaine Beckford, hailing him from the outset as an excellent signing. I have defended Bily while criticising Moyes's management of him. Perhaps, most pertinently, I have praised David Moyes for the Krøldrup signing. I said that he made a mistake and his dealing of it was strong courageous management.

I make no apology for criticising David Moyes; in my opinion, when he dithered over his contract he should have gone. I do have positive things to say, David, but over Moyes we differ.

Michael Kenrick
86   Posted 21/04/2011 at 22:32:47

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Simon, for me, it's about looking at the games played, the often glaring mistakes and crazy decisions made by the manager, and the lost points from draws that should have been wins (far too many) and defeats that should not have been. I'll leave it to you to figure out the effect those improved results might have had on our position in the table... or are you so blinkered that you are fully accepting of every result as being the best Moyes and his boys could do in the circumstances?

I don't accept that... and judging from his published statements, I doubt that Moyes would either. Moyes himself recognizes and admits these failings. He knows he and we should have done better this season. Your heated defence of him is pointless and unnecessary.

People like you come on here and make opinionated statements that they claim are true, yet all they are is your opinion. You claim to speak for thousands of others when all you can really do is speak for yourself and perhaps a cadre of like-minded friends.

What happens at the match is unique to the matchday atmosphere and nothing but full support (until things go bad!) is expected from all ? that's the point of being there... to SUPPORT the team, the club, the manger...

Meanwhile, individuals can and will come on websites like this to critique or support the manager. Most fans accept this as a reasonable exchange of views... and then there's you who doesn't seem to want anyone daring to question the manager or point up his manifest failings.

Trying to defend and make excuses for the poor performances of the manager and the team, hiding behind this plea of poverty doesn't cut it when you look at the games played and the players available to Moyes (note: nothing to do with anyone else ? Moyes is the Everton manager!). He should have done better this season... far better. Do you really deny that?

Marcus Kendall
87   Posted 21/04/2011 at 23:58:43

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Not to be pedantic, Simon, but Moyes didn't spot Coleman ? he was reccomended to him by a scout who knew Moyes personally.
Dave Wilson
88   Posted 22/04/2011 at 01:21:43

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Michael/ Andy

You have both been critics of Moyes for too long to offer up something lame that can be smacked out of the park, so I`ll leave you with a question:

I agree, Moyes could have done better, he has made mistakes, lots of them, but does he make more, or less than the others?

What if NO manager made a mistake? What if every manager got the absolute max out of his circumstances/budget? Where should an Everton manager finish? How many trophies should he win?

Seriously, I wont ask you the silly "who do you want?" question or the even sillier "what do you want?"

I`d like to know, ALL things considered. What do you guys expect?

Dennis Stevens
89   Posted 22/04/2011 at 01:32:21

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Simon, you're quite right ? I am just expressing my opinion. What I'm not doing is telling others who may disagree with me that THEY need to be more realistic (in other words ? if you disagree you are wrong!).

It's a little pathetic to try to make your view appear correct by drumming up an army of match-goers who obviously must think the same as you... because you've heard some of them sing a song. However, I have heard plenty of critical remarks about Moyes at the match, so the idolatry isn't universal. Although I must confess to not having verified whether any of Moyes's critics, that I've heard, have attended enough fixtures & spent sufficent money to entitle them to an opinion.

I suppose if you hear people booing you assume that's the away support. I haven't claimed there's a backlash so I'm not sure why you raise the matter but that bit of nonsense is a fiction not of my making but your own.

As for an agenda, well I'm not sure what yours is, but as far as I may be deemed to have one I'm merely here to debate the various aspects of the frustrations & joys of being an Evertonian ? I have no agenda & I'm not sure what purpose chatting on this site would serve if I did.

Ray Roche
90   Posted 22/04/2011 at 07:40:35

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Stephen Kenny @60

You say
"Let me ask a question that I hope you will answer honestly,
If in 10 years time the premier league status quo has been maintained and we are still 5-8th best, but we have not won a trophy, will you be happy with the situation?"

If I had asked YOU that question 10 years ago when Moyes arrived and we were staring relagation in the face, would you be happy with the situation we are in today, regular top 5th-8th finishes, a Cup Final appearance, after beating Liverpool, Utd and Villa on the way but losing to Chelsea, Champions the following season? Or would you still be thinking Moyes is crap? I hope you will answer honestly.

John Ford
91   Posted 22/04/2011 at 15:51:04

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Statistically it is beyond debate that money buys you trophies and also buys you a higher league position.

The statistics have been on here before, including Everton's relative poverty (£3M net!... a pittance). If people chose to ignore the stats (the fact that the same teams win basically everything) and plough their furrows then fine, it is after all just debate.

If you don't think money is the core to success then you are akin to Christians claiming the world is six thousand years old. Money is fucking us all over, that's why we talk of fifth place as a nirvana. Imagine that 25 years ago?

Moyes's record, not over half a season or the last two months ? over the years he's been here ? is singularly the best outside of the monied teams.

He makes mistakes but to base a critique of him on this without acknowledging what he has done for a club perpetually in a financial dry patch is blinkered.

Ever though of joining the Mormons?

Michael Kenrick
92   Posted 22/04/2011 at 16:30:36

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John: He makes far too many mistakes and to trumpet fawning admiration of all he does, without acknowledging that he should have achieved far more for a club that has provided him with sufficient finances to put together a half-decent team, is equally blinkered.

Ever thought of joining the Flat Earth Society?
Tony J Williams
93   Posted 22/04/2011 at 17:08:01

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What do you expect this "half decent" team to do then Michael?

In my view it needs to be a fully decent side to win things. Why then if the team isn't really up there should Moyes have done so much better with it?

Sufficient finances? Only in his wage packet perhaps (we can all agree that his wages are disgusting but then so is 100% of all premier league footballers/managers wages)
John Ford
94   Posted 22/04/2011 at 22:25:46

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Michael, how can you say he should have done more with his finances when there is simply no other team anywhere which has done so. No other team has achieved consistently good premier positions on his budget. You are way off with this. This is a statement base on an analysis of league positions since 2003.

As I keep saying there are valid criticisms of Moyes (yours included) but failing to recognise lack of cash as his biggest hamstring fundamentally ignores the facts. You continue to ply this narrow view yet ignore the elephant in the room.
Michael Kenrick
95   Posted 22/04/2011 at 23:10:12

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I can say it, John, because I watch the players that Everton have, I see (on occasion) what they are capable of ? and I see them mismanaged in one way or another by Moyes and his failings on far too many occasions. Money has absolutely nothing to do with this.

It's a question of looking at what we have in terms of players and resources, and how well they are being deployed. I defy anyone to say there is no room for improvement there... and that comes down to Moyes doing a better job ? or carrying on doing the poor to mediocre job he has now settled into.

Look at the players we have. Look what Moyes does when he has more money. Look at what he does when he has more/better players available. I don't want to ask "Are you blind..." but I gotta ask:

Stephen Kenny
96   Posted 23/04/2011 at 10:08:18

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I'd have said no, I think we should aspire to winning trophies, even though I accept he has done a good job, particularly in the league
Stephen Kenny
97   Posted 23/04/2011 at 10:08:18

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I'd have said no, I think we should aspire to winning trophies, even though I accept he has done a good job, particularly in the league
Ray Roche
98   Posted 23/04/2011 at 16:58:18

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My point is that when Moyes arrived we were in shit street and I think that any fan would have taken just safety, let alone, challenging for Europe most seasons and being the so called "best of the rest".

OK, with hindsight, we can all say that we wouldn't be happy with our present trophy-less position but back then? Be honest and think back. I remember hearing that Moyes had taken over and Smith had been sacked when I was on the way to work. I thought "That's it, we're down." I couldn't imagine anyone rescuing us from our precarious position facing relegation. I'd certainly have jumped at the chance to have what we have had these past ten years.

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