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Moyes is going Nowhere

By Michael Kenrick :  21/05/2011 :  Comments (75) :
I thought the comments from David Moyes regarding how he views his current job as manager of Everton were very telling ? particularly given the inferences a number of fans have drawn about his frustrations over money, or the painful lack thereof; banging his head against the unfairness and injustice of he glass ceiling separating the top six from clubs below; how his inability to purchase the resources he needs to take the club forward and really challenge for top honours in the game that we assured he is worthy of...

We've had it inferred that we have a manager who will not tolerate being lied to by his Chairman, and who will likely walk away from the club at some point in the near future because he knows he can never achieve success with Everton when his squad is starved of investment, and he must loan out half of them anyway to save on wages.

[This is all from memory of what I have read in comments, articles and the mailbag on here; please correct me if you feel comments like this have NOT been made by contributors to this site at some time recently.]

Contrast this them with what David Moyes says himself, as reported in today's Guardian:

"Mountains of cash and instability are not something I have had in my managerial career. Everton is the opposite. It is really well run. We don't have bundles of cash, we try and make the best of what we have but we have got stability. The situation I am in at the moment is a good one. I have a really good chairman and I am at a really good club.

"I can control the club to an extent and, though I don't like quoting him all the time, it is one of Sir Alex's comments that a manager has to be allowed to control a club and in the main I do. I don't have the funds but we have tried to keep a stable club."

To be fair, other contributors have spoken about the stability that Kenwright and Moyes have provided at the club, despite the lack of funds. And his comments resonate in reference to thoughts Moyes had expressed months ago regarding the prospect of a change of ownership: how he feared the possibility that new owners could relinquish the level of control he clearly relishes as Everton Manager.

Perhaps the insistence on retaining that control has been a stumbling block for some of those would-be investors we have heard about? Another thing I recall was Moyes insisting that the lack of new investment and the rapid disappearance of supposedly interested parties was not due to the asking price; Moyes has stated categorically that the reason Everton have not been sold is NOT because the asking price is too high.

Going back to what he is reported to have said today, I may be too easily swayed by what I read and hear... but these don't strike me as the comments of someone who wants out any time soon. The level of control he talks about, coupled with the trust that Bill Kenwright has obviously put in him, and the suggestion that the Board for Directors ? so maligned by some on here for their poor running of the club ? only meet in fact just once a year...

Would it be a step too far in the other direction to infer from this that David Moyes is in fact in a very strong position of authority and command at the club? Obviously Robert Elstone as CEO controls the day-to-day running of the business side, but it sounds to me that David Moyes has effective day-to-day control of all the football-related decisions at the club ? far beyond just picking who plays where before a game.

Full command of all the football-related decisions, combined with his acceptance of the severe fiscal constraints the club must operate under, would make him responsible for far more than some of us give him credit for. Not just responsible for, but completely invested in those decisions.

I think we need to keep this in mind when analysing the current operations of the club as we are set to enter another fun-filled summer of transfer madness (following the Gaffer's two weeks in Tenerife, when if I recall from recent years, nothing seems to happen at the club).

David Moyes is the Gaffer and he is not leaving Everton any time soon.

Reader Comments

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Kunal Desai
1   Posted 21/05/2011 at 15:24:17

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Why would anyone want to leave a job paying £65k a week? Besides Villa would be a sideways move, with possibly some big bames moving on in the summer??
Gerry Quinn
2   Posted 21/05/2011 at 15:27:19

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Michael,

I, for one, very much appreciate your comments with regards to this article ? normally you are one of Moyes severest critics.

I'm not sure if people were aware that I have always been a supporter of Sir David Moyes, and I have very rarely, if ever, got involved in the arguments about him.

I have found it heartbreaking to read some of the harsh criticism aimed at Moyes ? same goes for Leon Osman and Big Vic (although I have joked a few times about them on the Forum!).

I can fully understand the criticism of some of his tactics, but I honestly believe he is genuinely the right man ? arguably, the ONLY man ? for this current Everton predicament of skintness in this age of money-driven success.

There, I am now out of the closet ? let the retribution and slaughter begin...
Michael Bates
3   Posted 21/05/2011 at 15:45:36

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Gerry, how can you understand the criticisms of David Moyes and his tactics... and then say that he is the ONLY man that can help us?

I might be wrong but you'd think that either somebody would think he's shit tactically ? and therefore a rubbish manager as it's the managers job to get tactics correct ? or they'd think otherwise and he's the only man for us.

If you understand the criticisms then you can't be that big of a supporter of the bloke.
Paul Knox
4   Posted 21/05/2011 at 15:44:28

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Why have so many forgotten what a great club we had and how putting up with an ineffective board and a one-trick manager is good for us? Fiddling while Roman burns comes to mind... Let's take the chance and try to break back into the top 4/5 by playing entertaining attacking football for 90 minutes, not 20 minutes a game when we are losing!

If it means getting rid of an overpaid stubborn manager (as above comment states) and getting someone fresh with flair. Moyes has built a good squad (give him that), he just can't change his playing style. Defend the point at kick-off.
Nick Entwistle
5   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:06:05

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Good news good news. And I'm no BK fan and want to see him leave as much as the next doubter, but he does give us a stability.

But what can you say about that? A family living on minimum wage can have financial stabilty, as millionaire neighbours can have their financial problems... actually this was supposed to be a metaphor but is in fact how it is on Merseyside.

If it wasn't for BK's ineptitude, we could have had both money and stability.
Bill Simpson
6   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:04:54

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Why are the majority of Toffeeweb members so anti-David Moyes? He's by no means overpaid by Premier League standards (no doubt Villa would be prepared to offer him more than he's now getting if they really want him) and has achieved remarkable results at Everton despite having very limited funds for signings and usually having to sell in order to buy. He isn't negative, simply realistic and very successful at playing a percentage game that has had us punching above our real weight for a number of years.

Let's see what all the Moyes-knockers say when he eventually does go to Manure or elsewhere and we're back to fighting relegation each season under a more "charismatic" manager.
Trevor Lynes
7   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:06:15

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David Moyes has done a Paul Daniels job as he has genuinely been the Mother Hubbard of the Premier League... turning silk purses from sows' ears is virtually impossible but he has come quite close on occasion.

He has stability because his expectations are tempered by common sense... he would by his own admission be put to the test if he was given a large transfer budget and be expected to get into Europe or be sacked as so many others have. He definitely has one of the safest jobs in the Premier League so long as he maintains mid-table or slightly above.

Our motto is a myth in the present climes and I just wish we could have had genuine caps put on salaries and transfer fees to enable all the clubs to have an even playing field and not just become the same as the Scottish Premier League where only two clubs have any chance of winning the title.

I much preferred the old First Division when every team had a reasonable chance and I could back my own side with a chance of winning something. I do not applaud title wins gained by buying almost every player who can kick a ball and sit them on the bench to stop them playing elsewhere.

Our squad is just about able to keep EFC heads above water by staying in the Premier and staying out of Europe.

Brendan O'Doherty
8   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:20:12

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Good article.

"how he feared the possibility that new owners could relinquish the level of control he clearly relishes as Everton Manager. "

And it was his insistence that he maintained this level of control under possible new ownership, that caused the delay in him signing his new contract at the beginning of the 09/10 season, NOT hanging on for more money which is commonly used by his detractors as a stick with which to beat him. That part of the contract had already been agreed a good time beforehand.

Having seen what happened at other clubs eg. Keegan, Curbishley, you couldn't blame him.
Chris Matheson
9   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:29:51

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Is my view contradictory, or perhaps rare? I am very pro-Moyes and very anti-Kenwright.

Pro-Moyes because, despite all the frustrations about our style of play (slow, overly defensive, no variation in attack, nobody left up for corners etc) he has pretty much eradicated the annual relegation fear, if not fight, that we had before he arrived. And we do over-achieve (I hate that phrase) compared to our financial clout.

Boys'-Pen Billy however... well, I am all for some instability if it meant he cleared out. All our problems are finance and business management related. We have no money and everything is mortgaged to the hilt, with no apparent strategy for how to get out of this mess save to "search 24/7 for an investor". As Paul Knox said on another thread, it would be to bail out Bill's ego.

Nick makes a great point at No 5 about stability being relative. I think it is over-rated. I don't want us to do a Leeds or a Pompey but I wouldn't mind some turmoil if it saw the end of the current board regime.

If Moyesie left, our problems would still be present. If Kenwright left then Moyes might, just might, have something more to play with.

So, for me, it is Yes to Moyes and Kenwright Out!
Trevor Mackie
10   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:36:48

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Disappointing to have suspicions about the Everton set up confirmed; you live in hope that behind closed doors there's a semblence of recognisable business practice going on ? clearly not.

Kenwright hides behind Moyes, as has long been the charge and the "control" remark appears confirmation to me ? a frightened man defended by an ordinary man ? a recipe for mediocrity if ever I saw one. Tail wagging the dog like this means Moyes is under no pressure ? can do what he wants, when he wants, even leave when he wants.

Appalling for Everton Football Club.
Steve Sweeney
11   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:46:16

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Well fellas this is also straight from the horse's mouth:
"Seventh might be as good as it can get for Everton with the resources and the way teams are spending now," said the Everton manager.
I hoped we would do better than that this year but I think it is going to be much tougher next year. And for all those who support the current regime you are welcome. I have voted with my feet and wallet but I wish the club well. It is sad but Kenwright will just bleed this club dry, it is not well run (I cannot believe Moyes thinks this) ? it is a joke.

But hey, who am I to make comments? I don't go the match anymore. However, once Billy has gone, I'll be back... but I won't hold my breath. To all those who have castigated me and commented "Rat, Sinking Ship, etc" ? I love Everton Football Club and have done for most of my 54 years.| But, as I have said previously, BK go to hell, and for those that continue to support him and his Muppets, I hope you are happy with mid-table obscurity.

I find it really hard to accept that a huge number of our fan base are happy with the shite that has been served up over the past season and are taken in by Billy Liar's spin that all is OK.

Andy Codling
12   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:52:52

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Spot on, Steve.
Michael Kenrick
13   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:27:55

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Bill (#6), I'm not sure how you know there is a majority of ToffeeWeb Members who are "so" anti-David Moyes... Why even go there?

What you are really saying is that no-one should criticise him; everyone should buy off on the so-called "remarkable results" he supposedly achieved under the farcical claim that all of this is somehow "overachievement".

The point I take from his comments is that he is directly responsible, and that he shall therefore be criticised when Everton could and should be doing better under his guidance and command.

That's where individuals differ: I certainly don't think he's over-achieved at all ? if (and it's a very big 'IF') he's this wonderful manager you and his supporters claim him to be. Yes, less investment, blah, blah blah... but it's been part of his mission to perform better than merely the average that would be expected on that basis.

I can never understand the mentality that always compares him to Walter Smith, who became frankly a dreadful Everton manager by the time he left. Moyes had to be an improvement on that... otherwise, why change?

And Moyes was better initially, but he achieved his personal peak at Everton in 2004-05, with 4th place. Now, he's telling Everton fans that 7th is as Good As It Gets with this statement that really had my blood boiling:

"For Evertonians to be expecting us to do any more than seventh then I think they would need to tell me the reasons why they think we should be higher than where they are just now."

On the back of that "7th = Champions League" nonsense from last week, this underlines how the man in charge actually thinks. He takes absolutely zero responsibility for the dreadful two-thirds of the season when he totally failed to get his players and his team performing.

There were NO excuses for this, lest you Moyes-lovers forget. No Injuries; No transfer sagas; No contract haggles... just an abject lack of proper preparation for the new season; just a complete failure to build on the success of the previous season. Carry on that form and 7th would have been considered a disgrace.

Thankfully there are still some Evertonians who feel that way, along with the players (eg, Arteta) who know full well they could and should have done a lot better this season. That statement above from Moyes is a direct insult to those Everton fans and a slap in the face to the players.

Moyes is in charge; he is responsible; he should be held to a far higher standard.

James Martin
14   Posted 21/05/2011 at 16:48:56

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I don't think Moyes should be overly punished for all his ultra-negative comments. He's not lying when he says seventh might be as good as it gets... it might well be! The sides above us have abundances of resources so, as much as I think we could overtake them, on paper it doesn't look likely.

Also, rewind back to last pre-season. There was talk of making the top four, best squad in years, Fellaini was the best in the Prem. Then what happened? An awful start as Everton predictably choked on the weight of expectation. Another masterful ploy by Ferguson as, by talking us up for the title, he in my opinion knowingly burdened us with an expectation our players couldn't deal with.

I'm fine for me if Moyes plays it down this summer if it means our players don't start the season awash with complacency then playing with fear after the first loss. Let's keep our heads down this pre-season and arrive ready for next... rather than bigging ourselves up like our neighbours across the park with all this 'this is the year' rubbish.

I think Moyes has the belief we can finish higher than seventh; it's been an awful season so any improvement would probably see us finish higher next year, he's just learnt his lesson a little bit from last summer.

Joe McMahon
15   Posted 21/05/2011 at 17:21:57

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Maybe in the 10th season in charge he may have learn to play 2 upfront, play with pace and not 7 defenders on the pitch at once?
Ryan Holroyd
16   Posted 21/05/2011 at 17:48:33

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Do people honestly believe we would be any more successful if David Moyes left Everton? Bear in mind the cash the 6 clubs ahead of us? I think for His own sake he needs to leave Everton. We are going nowhere as a football club. He should go to Villa where he would receive much more backing.

Kenrick, you use this 4th place finish from 6 years ago as a stick to beat Moyes but football in this country has changed dramatically since that time. Nevermind the likes of United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs have got their act together and then there is this person called Sheik Mansour who has plouged nearly HALF A BILLION POUNDS into City. And a lot more to come so harping back to 6 years ago is making your argument silly, IMO.

People are living in a dream world if you think we will finish any higher than 7th next season.
Fran Mitchell
17   Posted 21/05/2011 at 18:44:47

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Michael Kenrick #13

"He takes absolutely zero responsibility for the dreadful two-thirds of the season when he totally failed to get his players and his team performing.

There were NO excuses for this, lest you Moyes-lovers forget. No Injuries; No transfer sagas; No contract haggles... just an abject lack of proper preparation for the new season"

NAIL.

HEAD.
Dalziel Kane
18   Posted 21/05/2011 at 18:39:00

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I have no lime with Moyes, he is a good manager, a nice individual, well spoken, I wouldn't care less if he was paid a King's ransom and the Crown Jewels if it meant he could keep Everton as a highly motivated outfit that was maybe actually winning a trophy every now and again, or having taken us to a higher plateau.

As it is, what do we have? Nine years of Mister Moyes... one FA Cup Final and a League Cup semi-final, and some very commendable league finishes here and there against the moneybags of higher placed outfits. Bottom line being, I have no issue with Moyes, I wish him well, but maybe at some point in the near future, he's had a good innings, but with no end product, I'd be curious to give someone else a try.

It's imperative that Everton lift some silver (soon) after 16 years away, and I think we'd be better prepared with a new face. Maybe I'm thinking back to Royle in 1994 and what came after, but even so, I'd really like to see an Everton captain lift some trophy again sometime soon. It really seems a long time since Rideout, Watson etc.

Chris Bannantyne
19   Posted 21/05/2011 at 18:29:46

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I remember Moyes comments when he came out to Aus in the preseason. It was something to the effect of "I want to win the league, you might say its an unrealistic target, and you would probably be right, but as a manager you have to believe you can do it ? you have to aim for the title, otherwise what's the point?"

This is in stark contrast to the current "7th is as good as it gets" type comments.

We all know in the pre-season there was a lot of the "this is our season" sentiments going around, whether or not you shared that feeling is immaterial, there was certainly a general optimism floating around the Evertonians. And, as you know, this season has turned out to be nothing deserving of that feeling, in fact it has been pretty rotten to say the least.

Maybe Moyes recognises this and is not trying to build expectations amongst the supporters and squad ? it does seem that the current team perform better when expectations are low.

Perhaps it's a bit of reverse psychology ? a change of tactic. If so, I hope its not the only bloody tactic Moyes decides to change.
Amit Vithlani
20   Posted 21/05/2011 at 18:45:50

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"David Moyes is the Gaffer and he is not leaving any time soon". So? What's your point? Is this a call to arms for the anti-Moyes brigade? Is it a statement of fact? (If so, why bother with the article? His contract is not up this summer, and we all know BK is up his arse.)

I don't understand this post Michael, it's frankly confusing what point you are trying to make.

Somewhere in the middle you infer that it is Moyes who may have been the stumbling block for a take-over:

"...how he feared the possibility that new owners could relinquish the level of control he clearly relishes as Everton Manager.

Perhaps the insistence on retaining that control has been a stumbling block for some of those would-be investors we have heard about?"

This is not only highly speculative, but idiotic nonsense. Everton is debt-laden club, beholden to the banks and, quite possibly, Philip Green.

If a genuine investor had made serious moves to acquire the club, and Moyes had resisted their overtures, BK would have been dicing with death if this became public. Moyes himself would have endangered his position if the club continues to heamorrhage money.
Andy Crooks
21   Posted 21/05/2011 at 19:05:14

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Well, it is clear now, Moyes is the boss. Only believe in possible transfers when we hear it from him. He's the man and here to stay. Forget a summer of excitement and hope, the man is here to stay. I would ask all of those who think this is great news to think of West Brom home and away. We are paying a fortune to the man responsible for this. For me, this is grim news indeed. The poisonous double act is here to stay.
James Brand
22   Posted 21/05/2011 at 19:18:09

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Is the right man for the job... always has been and always will be... I'm a Moyes-Lover...

All you disgruntled lot, take a look at the league table (assuming we finish 7th)... now go to a mirror, look yourself in the eye and ask yourself, is there a team above us that you think shouldn't be?

Tottenham have a MUCH better squad than us! Perhaps Liverpool shouldn't be there as they're no better than us but maybe that's reflected in the fact that they're one place above us...

Guys we're where we are because that's all we're good enough for... a manager can only work with what he's given and on paper I think Moyes has come in 'Par for the Course'

Could've possibly finished 6th but it counts for nothing anyway this season so I think we're all moaning about nothing here...

INVESTMENT is needed, not a new manager... point the finger elsewhere gents...
James Martin
23   Posted 21/05/2011 at 19:20:26

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Who would we get realistically in his place? Name a manager on a lower wage than Moyes who would be guaranteed both to want to leave their current job/holiday and deliver both trophies and a higher league finish for Everton. Oh and to sweeten the deal for them there's no money to spend, there's no new stadium and most of their players would worship Moyes. Who would this miracle man be exactly?

We'd just end up with someone even worse in which I include Martin O'Neill who spent a load of money finishing behind Moyes then threw his toys out the pram when it ran out. Even worse than this we'd get for some ridiculous ideologue like Di Mateo or Holloway who have attacked their way with unrelenting vigour into the relegation zone.

Oh no wait, crisis averted, I hear Guardiola is getting a little bored at Barca, and if he passes us up there's a Mourinho-Hiddink dream team desperate for the chance to work with Anichebe and Beckford.

Paul Foster
24   Posted 21/05/2011 at 20:34:19

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"Perhaps the insistence on retaining that control has been a stumbling block for some of those would-be investors we have heard about?"

Not sure what you mean here, Michael. Why would a potential buyer give two fucks what Moyes thinks/wants? If they buy the club, they can sack him in an instant if they like.

Can't quite imagine a billionaire investor saying: "Shit, I was all ready to be Everton than I heard the pesky manager wanted to keep control."
Brian Waring
25   Posted 21/05/2011 at 20:38:24

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James, thanks for that, I feel so much better now knowing that it was all Ferguson's fault for our first half of the season performances, and not because we we're shite.
Trevor Mackie
26   Posted 21/05/2011 at 20:44:58

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James Martin 23

You miss the point of people like myself who aren't satisfied with what's going on at Everton. I know there is no guarantee of improvement whoever comes in after Moyes, I am convinced nothing is going to change under Moyes and going into the 10th year I've had enough.

That's all there is to it.

There is no personal vendetta against Moyes, it's simply time for a change , time to see if a fresh face might bring improvement. It might go tits up ? who knows ? it might bring us a trophy, entertainment, excitement, one thing is certain until we try we won't know.

The only thing I do know, is I am tired of feeling like we're not really trying and that cuts across the whole club ? board, players, fans ? the lot. Like it or loathe it the conductor of all this is the manager.

I promise you if Moyes goes and his successor comes along and is a complete disaster, I'll be first on here holding my hands up saying "told ya ? shoulda kept Davey" ? see... nothing personal.
Al Reddish
27   Posted 21/05/2011 at 20:58:37

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Another anti-Moyes rant by Michael K. No surprise there then. Moyes is the boss and wants control of the way the club is run. I say well done to the man. After all, would you trust Bill?

He is a good manager and has got us top-half finishes in all but two of his 9 seasons here. You have to go a long way back to find a manager who gave us so much European football and raised expectations year on year. I admit his tactics can be baffling but you can see every club has fans that think the same of their own manager, it's all about opinions.

Sadly for us, it's lack of finance that is holding us back... no matter what all the Moyes bashers think. As has been pointed out, all the teams finishing above us were expected too, and spent a fortune to do so, but look how much the teams below us spent too. Our biggest transfer in the last couple of windows was a freebie from League One and that wasn't down to Moyes. He didn't want to break up his team this season and that may have cost us, but where would the transfer fees have gone? To the fucking banks, that's where.

Let's see what happens in the summer and take it from there. We have a manager 75% of Premier League fans want to see manage their club so he can't be all that bad can he?

Dave Rooney
28   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:28:48

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I rarely post on this site but read it every day. I appreciate we all have different opinions but am amazed how many people say they are sick of Moyes and his time is up. I am yet to read any suggestions of who should replace him.

I really think those people who are so strong in the opinion David Moyes should go should start suggesting some suitable replacements as we will need one.

IN MOYES WE TRUST!
Andy Crooks
29   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:27:30

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Al, can you point out how lack of finance led to some of the truly awful performances this season? Just as an example, the two West Brom games, Wigan, Wolves, West Ham, Reading etc. These performances weren't down to lack of finance but to the players and the coach who selects and coaches them.
Andy Crooks
30   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:34:29

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Dave, if you read this site every day you would have seen many alternatives to Moyes put forward. The fact that you may disagree with them does not mean they don't exist.

Anyway, to suggest that in order to criticise Moyes one must name an alternative really doesn't make sense.

Michael Kenrick
31   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:21:01

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Paul, I was making a speculative inference (see the word "perhaps") based on statements coming form the club to the effect that: (a) there have been parties interested in investing in Everton; (b) when time comes to put down their money, they disappear, never to return; (c) the logical reason for (b) is that the price is too high, but Moyes has told us explicitly that is not the reason.

Then see #8 above ? Moyes wanted guarantees regarding his level of control of the club before he would sign his new contract.

Something is preventing interested parties (what was it Kenwright said... three a week?) from giving money to the club and it's not the amount of money required... so it is not unreasonable to infer that it might be something to do with the conditions attached. Many believe one of those conditions is that Bill Kenwright remains as Chairman... is it that much of a leap (based on what Moyes said today) that he also stays as the other locked-in half of the dynamic duo?

All clearly labelled as inference. We can only go by the crumbs that fall our way...

Also, please, let's not have the discussion about Moyes leaving and who could replace him or do a better job. The title of the piece is "Moyes is going Nowhere" yet people continue to ask this redundant and pointless question. As I've said many times before, David Moyes is the Everton Manager, he has been for the last nine years, and he is not leaving anytime soon.

Lars Eidissen
32   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:53:54

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There is a problem with this seventh, although the six teams above us are all to be considered more resourced and stronger.

That is that this will be a quite significant setback on last season pointwise, and the gap to clubs above us are bigger than to five or six clubs below us.

And for the second season running and for a total of five cup comps during that time, no quarter finals. In total that bleaks the picture on a seventh place which might sound acceptable or even good in itself.

Personally I'd like us to push our previous best tally of 65 points (twice) and that would take us right into the mix for 3rd or 4th place finish although no guarantees.

Andrew Laird
33   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:55:07

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So it was entirely Moyes's decision to send Yakubu and Vaughan out on loan and not bring in any other striker in January. It was also his decision to keep hold of a striker who does not score, one made of glass and the other who will never be good enough to play on his own in Moyes's 10-year-old formation.

This man is a genius.

Roll on another 10 years of the same problems with no right or left winger, no pace, no goalscoring midfielders, no creativity and no hope other than finishing 7th in the league. Fuck me.
Al Reddish
34   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:54:33

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Andy @ 29, firstly hi, secondly we are not the only team that have had truely awful results. Look at Blackpool against Liverpool. Was that down to the shit Roy Hodgson and his poor tactics. The same Roy who has taken West Brom by storm. Man. Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal (especially) have had shit results and poor performances too, was that all down to their managers?

Sometimes shit happens and you can't explain it, but we have suffered more with injuries and players jetting off to Asian or African cups than any other in the teams around us. This is where a lack of finance comes in. We have a decent first eleven, but have no money to have a squad of 25 top class players like most of the clubs aiming for the top 6 or higher. Compare our bench to anyone above us and even those well below us and the money that was spent (Sunderland, Villa etc).

Michael Kenrick
35   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:05:44

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Who cares about other teams and their results? This is about Everton, it's about OUR shit results this season, as Andy says. So shit happens and it's not the manager's fault, eh, Al? Even though he's in total control and he fully accepts his fiscal constraints??? If we win, finish high up the table, reach cup finals, he deserves the credit...

Come on, Al, you can't have it both ways. Either the manager has control and full responsibility... and we suffer the effect of his failings as a manager... or it's more like a lottery, as I suggested a few weeks ago, where Moyes is actually powerless to effectively and consistently influence the results.
Tom Winek
36   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:04:52

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Brilliant. At least now we know who's responsible next season when we don't find a buyer/investment, when we continue to spend no money and instead bring in loan players, when we finish no higher than 7th and when the whole of our first choice midfield get injured at the same time. Oh and also when proposed redevelopments of Goodison don't take place.
Al Reddish
37   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:12:36

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OK so come up with the solution, send it to Bill and all is good in the world. You yourself (Michael) have stated in the not so distant past that the game attending fans are mostly behind the manager, not all admittedly but maybe they see something you dont from your computer screen
Amit Vithlani
38   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:11:06

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Michael #31

"Something is preventing interested parties (what was it Kenwright said... three a week?) from giving money to the club and it's not the amount of money required... so it is not unreasonable to infer that it might be something to do with the conditions attached. Many believe one of those conditions is that Bill Kenwright remains as Chairman... is it that much of a leap (based on what Moyes said today) that he also stays as the other locked-in half of the dynamic duo?

All clearly labelled as inference. We can only go by the crumbs that fall our way... "

These are not even crumbs, more like minute dust particles, which you have somehow turned into a nonsensical hypothesis that David Moyes is in cahoots with BK to prevent a take-over of the club as he is scared he will lose control.

Utter bollocks.
Gavin Ramejkis
39   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:58:54

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James #22, take a deep breath and ask yourself a few questions, think back to the absolute shitload of "incredible draws" this season and ask yourself if you are proud of the setup, formation and tactics used in a lot of those games. Ask yourself if you are genuinely hand on heart happy that no one but David Moyes took the team to West Ham with two strikers on the bench and refused to start either of them.

Ask yourself if you are genuinely happy with the tactics of playing so many defenders in games or a striker who has over 230 players in the league who have scored more goals than him this season over another who has scored seven.

Ask yourself if you are happy that David Moyes kept playing out-of-form players this season for months?

Sam Hoare
40   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:15:57

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A lot of critics are acting like this season has been a disaster. IT REALLY HASNT!!

It's been very, very mediocre but we are going to finish in the top 8 of the Premier League despite being in the bottom 6 or so for spending. It's not good and it's not enough but let's not pretend that we are West Ham. Moyes and the team are not happy and that's a good sign but any rash change could see us fall rapidly from (relative) grace...
Al Reddish
41   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:22:25

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Sam. that's exactly right, the team and the manager are not happy and WANT to put it right. They are not resting on their laurels and saying that is it. I know Moyes stated he thinks 7th is the best we might be able to hope for as it will be difficult WITH NO MONEY, but who can argue with that given the FINANCIAL circumstances.

Michael, I respect your point of view and I am sure deep down you may respect mine, we both want the best for Everton and a healthy debate really is a good thing, I just think sometimes I think a bit more realistic.......but then again I am biased!!!!

Dick Fearon
42   Posted 21/05/2011 at 21:46:28

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It would take half a page to list where I believe Moyes could have done better. From the players' lack of physical fitness at the start of the new season to team selection, tactics etc etc.

Security of tenure over ten years has certainly brought stability yet I query if it is the right kind of stability either for Moyes or the players. It has long been proved in the business world that a happy workforce is less productive than an unhappy one.

Is the stability we have at Everton the kind that provides fans with the sure knowledge that the next game and every subsequent game will be played with a an eye firmly fixed on the security and stability of 40 points. Mid-table mediocrity has become the norm, we have even been denied the excitement of a full blown relegation battle.

Dave Wilson
43   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:24:42

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Ah fuck it.

Let's get a Holloway or some other cavalry charge merchant in. Now that you guys have promised to hold your hands up if he fucks up and admit you were wrong, I feel so much better. You guys admitting you got it wrong will really give me a boost as I head off to Cardiff or Boro in February.

No investment = no (or very little) improvement; what the fuck did you want Moyes to say? We`ll be Champions?

Kenwright out! ...and until he goes, Moyes MUST stay.

James Martin
44   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:29:50

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No one has still offered forward any solution. If someone could outline a plausible future under a different manager that had a greater than average chance of not going 'tits up' then I would be all for it but I certianly can't think of anyone better we could get who would give us what we want. Hand on heart, Gavin do you want to roll the dice with relegation again just to see a bit more attacking football?

You are right, I hate the negative Moyes, the lone striker, the boring draws and losses to teams we should beat. I still think in the current climate he is still the man to take us forward, even if the progress is painfully slow.

For all those who say he's done nothing in nine years that is a bit unfair. Yes, no trophies but just remember the state of the team he inherited. Nowadays we ponder how to get two of the best young midfielders in Europe (apparently) into our starting line-up.

The team he has built is a vast improvement on the one he got and a disappointing season ending in seventh rather than seventeenth shows this improvement in quality.

Trevor Mackie
45   Posted 21/05/2011 at 23:03:47

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Dave 43

The "hands up" comment was in jest - c'mon now.

James 44

You're asking for absolutes, for guarantees - not how it works is it?
Dennis Stevens
46   Posted 21/05/2011 at 23:29:38

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It seems to me, that not only is Moyes going nowhere, but the same is true of the Board - & what's worse is that they're taking the club there with them all.
Michael Coville
47   Posted 21/05/2011 at 23:43:38

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I believe that Moyes's statement about "7th is as good as it gets" is aimed at Blue Bill to be perfectly honest. I think that is what I would say to Kenwright who is the one who has blue-colored specs on.

Kenwright and the board seem to think that Moyes is a bloody miracle worker who can get us a cup or one of the top four places with a small squad compared with other teams and one that consists of a few good players and a collection of hard working but mediocre players.

Name one manager who could do better than Moyes who would come to us under the conditions that Moyes is forced to manage. Yes, I also would like to see the team play better and attack more rather than play with seven defenders but with our current squad I am not sure if that is feasible or realistic.

The only way we can improve is to get new owners and if we do then I would like to see Moyes given a few years to see what he could do with sufficient funds. If he can't change our fortunes then that is the time for him to go.

Danny James
48   Posted 21/05/2011 at 23:54:53

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I think the biggest mistake Moyes ever made was to get a team worse than the one we have now to fourth place. This has raised the level of what people think is achievable. Finishing 7th and top of the small spenders league is not good enough. If a weaker team with little money can finish fourth why can't they do it every season?

Now I know some people will immediately argue that it's not the finishing 7th which is the problem, it's the negative hoofball tactics and dour football that is the problem. However, I seem to remember that the season we finished fourth we were hardly the entertainers. There were lots of battling one-nils and we adopted the negative 4-5-1 formation all season playing a striker who wasn't particularly prolific (sounds familiar)... and yet no-one questioned Moyes tactics then.

We need to realise what Moyes is achieving is very likely to be as much as can be achieved by a club in our situation. The gap is constantly widening between us and the teams above us. Next season finishing sixth is practically now the same as finishing fourth was in 2005 in terms of difficulty. We may not play football like Barcelona but at least the team is in safe hands under Moysey.
Gavin Ramejkis
49   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:45:00

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Oh James, where do you start, the classic defence of not changing being safety? Who are you or I to say that change will bring? No-one knows, what plenty of people can see is that Moyes continues to make the same mistakes year-in, year-out.

Before I am suddenly labelled a hater, I'll also add when the team do well I am also posting that I am happy but it's only fair to take the flack when they do shit and obvious repeated mistakes rear their ugly head again. When I can see what the team is capable of i.e. the second half against a very expensive Man City then a week later turn back into a dreadful side it fucking hurts but that squad and formation and tactics isn't down to me or you, it's down to David Moyes. How slow would you define as slow, ten years, fifteen years, twenty years?

Neither of us can say that change will bring anything other than change and after nearly ten years of the same mistakes I'd be inclined to say that change doesn't scare me but my job itself is to introduce change so we could differ wildly in that I don't view change as all negative and doom and gloom or something to be afraid of. Moyes won't be at Everton forever, what happens then? Will the team curl up and die or will it go on? 133 years tells me it goes on.

The team has achieved 7th or 8th through a reasonable run in a truly terrible season all round, who is to say in such a poor league that having taken the bull by the horns instead of the dreadful safety-first attitude even half a dozen of those incredible draws into wins, we could have taken a CL spot? The only times in nearly ten years Moyes changes the line -up and tactics are when injuries force his hand or to chase a game having gone at least a goal down and even the latter isn't that common.

James Flynn
50   Posted 21/05/2011 at 22:36:35

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Of course, a Messi or Ronaldo would have us in the Top 4. That's what we're missing; legitimate scorers to frighten the opposing manager.
Tommy Byrne
51   Posted 22/05/2011 at 06:01:15

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The 6 teams above us all have money and playing strength in depth. We have no cash and little playing depth. We lose Fellaini, Saha Cahill and Arteta, some with season ending injuries, some just worn out and tired.

To finishe 7th is pretty good considering we were bottom after 5 games with what was it 3 pts. The reality is this is as good as it gets.

How can we compete with Chelsea or City in the long term? We strengthen our sqaud with freebies and kids of untried potential, it's not a level playing field. The introduction of salary capping and more home grown talent has to be made to happen.

Gareth Humphreys
52   Posted 22/05/2011 at 06:40:23

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Michael, I get it ? you just don't like our manager... but please stop with the horsehit. You always claim to have higher standards than the more realistic everetonians and use your houlier than thou "he should be held to higher standards, nil satis" bollocks all the time.

Football doesn't work like that. It is dictated by the quality of the players and the quality of the manager and this is dictated by money ? pure and simple. We are very very fortunate to have a manager who can sometimes outperform clubs with a far greater kitty but overall, until we have new investment, David Moyes will just have to fight the tide with what he has available and continue to over achieve as he has done throughout his tenure here.

If you are still unsure just look at the teams above us in the league, have a look at the cost of their players and think again before posting such absolute shite. He hasn't won manager of the year 3 times because he is underperforming. Give me strength.

Dave Wilson
53   Posted 22/05/2011 at 06:06:09

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Fair enough, Trevor (#45).

But I disagree; asking for guarantees IS how it how works and with Moyes you actually get as close to a guarantee as football will permit.

He may not get the pulses racing but, when the club is finally sold, I want to be in a position to challenge ? at least with Moyes, we WILL live to fight another day.

IF THIS CLUB SINKS UNDER THE CURRENT REGIME, THERE WILL BE NO COMING BACK.

The people on this site who regularly criticise Moyes for starting too defensively are the same people who criticise Moyes for shutting up shop after we have taken the lead. When I hear people screaming things like "Man City could have had three in the first half" or "We were shite in the second half against Tottenham", I wonder if they actually understand the game; do they really believe you can play against multi-million pound teams without them having their periods of the game?

Moyes may do things that a few dozen people on this site do not agree with but that does not constitute a mistake. It's merely an opinion offered by a minority who believe ? against all evidence to the contrary ? that Moyes is doing a shit job.
Sorry, but to say I ? and the overwhelming majority of people who follow football ? don't agree is an understatement; why on earth would I/we want to trust the judgement of people who call for Holloway or Martinez?

This has nothing to do with fear, it`s about playing the long game, this board won't always be around and, when the new regime eventually arrives, we need to be in a position to give them ? and their chosen manager ? a fighting chance. We are far more likely to be able to do that with Davey Moyes in charge.
James Martin
54   Posted 22/05/2011 at 09:57:30

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You're right in that there are no guarantees, Gavin. Change could go either way and it's good that you have an optimistic view of which way the change could go. There is also, however, the view that you would hire a replacement manager on his previous experience/ achievements rather than the philosophical view that he could be as equally brilliant as he could be rubbish.

Yes, when Moyes goes someone else will need to take over and then we will have to live with whether he is, better or worse. my argument is at this current moment can anyone name a manager that could feasibly join Everton who has a better chance of being good rather than awful?

Yes, you cannot know for certain either way, but a lot of the managers currently available based on past form would present a greater chance of taking Everton down the league rather than up it when you consider our lack of funds and the wealth of the six teams above us.

Chris Smith
55   Posted 22/05/2011 at 10:17:24

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I know we all want Everton to win trophies and sign the big names. We have to be honest though. Apart from three years in the 1980s we've not been a tropy winning side (I was born in 1970 and am not looking back further than that). We were hopeless in the 1990s. Sadly our expectations are just too high.
Brian Waring
56   Posted 22/05/2011 at 10:25:03

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The sad thing is, before the start of the season this was one of the best squads ever (some said only Chelsea had a better squad); there was talk of a deffo 4th place finish, some even talked about winning the Prem.

Now, it seems to be that 7th is as good as it's going to get, and that's okay... what's changed? And please don't use the money excuse, because we had no money before the season started.

Brian Waring
57   Posted 22/05/2011 at 10:32:52

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Chris, what about Joe Royle winning the FA Cup in 1995.
Tony McNulty
58   Posted 22/05/2011 at 10:42:46

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Dave (52)

Funnily enough, I think you are right over your, "If we sink under this regime, there's no coming back" comment. Who is likely to come in under the present, worsening, financial climate, when they haven't appeared in the better years?

In fairness, however (and I am not in the anti-Moyes camp myself), as a regular reader and contributor on here, you must admit that it is, "more than a few dozen on this site" who regularly criticise the manager.

I would say that they number at least a couple of hundred. And most of them are consistent in their views, and, leaving aside the sometimes abusive minority, the majority do try and argue their case convincingly, backed by what they consider to be evidence.
Gavin Ramejkis
59   Posted 22/05/2011 at 10:40:49

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James, when we signed up Moyes, had you followed his achievements? Had he won anything bar a lower league title? If you use the "let's select from the media speculation" approach, you will get the usual suspects ? Allardyce, Megson, etc. They are all known as failing in the top flight but that's not the Lidl shopping basket BK has us using now; he'd have to recruit from lower leagues again or my preference would be from Europe preferably a manager who has reasonable pedigree in European competition even if it is only that "Channel Five" trophy.

I watched that, saw some good football being played by teams that didn't cost as much as ours, by managers that won't be on as much money as Moyes, and those managers aren't likely to be jumping ship to CL contenders with the exception of Boas. Look at Boas though: youngest manager to win a major European trophy.

John Ford
60   Posted 22/05/2011 at 10:49:49

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Brian, youre not telling me you'd swap this team for that of the 90s are you?

Regarding why we didn't finish fourth ? well in part City and Spurs cashed in on their huge spend, so yes it is still about money. Second, Arteta hasn't recovered from his injury so we don't have our No 1 player playing at his best, and we've no-one anywhere near the same quality to replace him, so yes again it is about money. In this case, ensuring sufficient number of quality players.

I'm continuously bewildered at peoples failure to see the broader context for this. Money equals success ? there is no getting away from the fact.

Gareth 51. Spot on! No-one, mistakes or no mistakes/dull or whatever, has done better than Moyes with so little to work with.
David Mathieson
61   Posted 22/05/2011 at 10:56:11

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How long should Everton keep Moyes even if he doesn?t win a trophy?
a) 10 years
b) 20 years
c) 30 years
d) Wait until Moyes goes to a bigger club where he will sweep all before him
e) Until he dies or retires, there is no chance of getting anyone better than Moyes in the world now or ever.
Shaun Laycock
62   Posted 22/05/2011 at 11:20:05

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I, for one, think Moyes is the right man for the job. He instils the right qualities and seems to have integrity. I have, however, been highly critical of his tactics. Maybe we need an attack-minded number two who will bring about a freshness to the squad.

Financially, we are in a pickle and I fully expect some 'deadwood' to be sold or a big name player moved on. We need to cut our cloth accordingly and trim our wage bill. We have too many players on big bucks not cuting it. They need to go, raise cash, re-invest it into buying young, hungry pros who will not be afraid to put a shift in!

David Holroyd
63   Posted 22/05/2011 at 11:02:11

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We may not have much money to spend in the summer but we have to try and get the squad more balanced. All the midfield players won't to play in central positions: Arteta, Fellaini, Osman, Rodwell, Bily ? it's all very slow and predictable. What money we do have or generate we could do with a bit more variety.

As for Moyes, I believe he has been here too long, but I don't think we could do any better with the bit of money he has to play with.

Doug Nestor
64   Posted 22/05/2011 at 11:18:07

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I'm sitting here thinking back to the late 70s, 80s and early 90s about going into a new season, hoping we can win the title or at least a cup... I'm now being told a 7th place finish is the best to hope for... what's the point?? If your Manager doesn't believe then how are the player's meant to react?

To me it's all too easy, they get paid an obscene amount of money to actually achieve nothing and we as supporters just go along with it... If you're not in it to really believe you can win it ? then why be in it at all??

Ian McDowell
65   Posted 22/05/2011 at 12:18:57

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Doug, football has changed nowadays and Moyes is right: 7th is the best we can hope for. The top 6 this season have all invested multi-millions in the past 5 years.
Brian Waring
66   Posted 22/05/2011 at 12:30:20

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John, what's changed from the start of the season, and now? Spurs and the Mancs still had the money then, but there was still plenty predicting we would still finish above them both.

By the way, I agree that money does play a big part in it, but it's funny that pre-season it didn't... but now it does.
Richard Tarleton
67   Posted 22/05/2011 at 13:04:01

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Apart from the use of 'inferred' when it should be 'implied', a superb and perceptive article, grounded in reality.
Trevor Mackie
68   Posted 22/05/2011 at 11:53:46

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Dave Wilson (#52)

I struggle to understand what you're talking about most of the time so unreadable is your stuff... but, from what I can discern, you talk in "absolutes" as though no options lay beyond your keyboard thumping. So, what if:

The club isn't sold! ? what if one of BK's celebrity buddies shows up, puts a bit of cash in, and we limp along for years and years?

What about if Moyes just goes? Despite your bizarre view that football is about guarantees, there is no guarantee he'll stay. Are you saying if SAF wins the CL, retires, and Man Utd offer Moyes the job, he'll still be here next season?

"If the club sinks there's no coming back under this regime" ? Do you mean like Newcastle?

Your following unintelligible rant supporting Moyes may be an opinion but throwing in another "absolute" about how you and the "overwhelming majority of people who follow football don't agree" with his critics is not testable ? so don't say it, it just looks like bullshit.

What cliched drivel that last "para" is ? "playing the long game" ? for how long? It's important cos we might all be 6ft under if your open-ended argument goes unchallenged. Plus your Moyes support soon withers when you want to give the new regime "and their chosen manager" a fighting chance. Poor old Davey... ok for keeping us in mid-table mediocrity but kicked out with the garbage when the shiney new money comes in.

Absolute rubbish.
Doug Nestor
69   Posted 22/05/2011 at 13:26:48

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Ian,

So all the players at our club know & believe they can only achieve 7th and think that's ok ??

I can't help thinking back to the day I was in any competition, there is no way I was thinking of being 2nd never mind 7th... but then again, I wasn't paid a shitload.

We as supporters really are blind.

Eugene Ruane
70   Posted 22/05/2011 at 13:19:15

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Re: Moyes "Seventh might be as good as it can get for Everton with the resources and the way teams are spending now".

Sorry but bollocks and a piss-weak excuse.

I am going to play 'what if?'

I know, I know BUT!... all I want you to keep in mind the opposition teams I'm talking about (ie: NOT the top four, or the 1970 Brazil side, or the 63 Madrid side, or the present Barcelona team... etc).

Ok, what if we beat AT HOME, Wolves, Wigan, Birmingham, Bolton (I'll leave Spurs an Liverpool out) instead of drawing with them?

And what if, instead of getting beat at home by Newcastle and West Brom, we draw or win?

You can tot up the various possible points total yourself but with a bit more adventure from the the man with no imagination, we could today possibly be going into our last game scrapping for 4th with Arsenal or even have 4th sorted.

To suggest 7th is the limit is to suggest these results couldn't have been different ? as I said earlier, bollocks.

And ANYONE who thinks Moyes is the ONLY man who can do the job (without taking us down), has imo, the imagination of... well, David Moyes.
Andrew Cunningham
71   Posted 22/05/2011 at 13:01:52

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I am happy it"s the last day of the season and we are not in a dogfight for survival. Those Wimbledon and Coventry games (thank god for Gareth) still send a shiver down my spine.
Trevor Mackie
72   Posted 22/05/2011 at 16:32:43

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To the editor

The improvements you make adjusting the grammar on my stuff is first class - many thanks - wish I had such ability.

If only we had such "finishers" in the team!

Excellent stuff.
Dave Wilson
73   Posted 23/05/2011 at 05:55:25

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Trevor

You do indeed seem to have trouble understanding what you are reading.

Not sure how you can interpret me saying "Moyes represents the closest thing to a guarantee as football permits" as me saying "football is about guarantees."

Sorry I didn't get back to you ? I was at the match witnessing the overwhelning majority of the GP faithful cheering Davey Moyes from the rafters.

ps: Newcastle? WTF?
Neil Wolstenholme
74   Posted 23/05/2011 at 09:47:31

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I've written for this site from time to time in the past and it is depressing to see the direction it has taken. Moyes is far from perfect but he is frankly the best we have had in 20+ years and the major reason we are consistently a top 8 team despite having no money, a Board of Directors who turn everything they touch to dust and a commercial business plan that can best be described as weak.

Of course Moyes's tactical blindspots, caution and bizarre loyalty to certain players causes frustration but articles like this only illustrate how far he has brought us ? so far that many fans have lost any perspective on what he is actually achieving and can now only focus on the flaws.

The glass is more than half-full in terms of our manager. It is just a crying shame that for so many people it will only ever be seen as more than half-empty. Sometimes the strident voice railing against the perceived orthodoxy is that of a visionary. Sometimes it is simply noise from a fool.

Eugene Ruane
75   Posted 23/05/2011 at 13:01:57

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Yes Neil, very philosophical I'm sure and no doubt there are many, wistfully sighing along with you, shaking their heads and tutting.

Make no mistake though, for people like me, 'carry-on-Dave' posts like yours are equally depressing.

[A strident voice railing against Moyes' ACTUAL lack of imagination, ACTUAL lack of tactical sense and ACTUAL lack of trophies.]

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