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Little & Large

By Michael Kenrick :  26/05/2011 :  Comments (50) :

Breaking Up the Dynamic Duo

Before I go off on my Jollies, there was one comment in last weekend's post-match virtual jousting that got me thinking, it was this from Ryan Holyrod:

If you spend as much time getting rid of Bill Kenwright as opposed to your incessant ramblings about David Moyes, maybe we would have more than fuck-all to spend each season.
Leaving aside the obvious non sequitur that incessant ramblings have any impact, it highlights the thinking that David Moyes is ace, can do no wrong, is hobbled only by "lack of resources" (despite copious evidence to the contrary)... while all our ills lie at the feet of the Chairman, part-owner and itinerant luvvie, Mr Kenwright, who has manifestly failed in his self-proclaimed "24/7" quest to bring investment into the club.

Now we've had loads discussions about Moyes's failings as manager, and loads of discussions about Blue Bill's embarrassments and incompetences as Chairman of the Club. What strikes me about this comment, though, is that it seems to ignore not only a joint persona put forward by both men ? that they are a virtually indestructible team ? but that it also ignores a commitment David Moyes has made (implicitly and explicitly) to do his best in his current job, fully accepting the restricted fiscal circumstances under which he must operate.

By way of contrast with this, we've also had plenty of discussions that insinuate Moyes is somehow unhappy or frustrated with his lot, to the effect that he could well walk in the summer if his much-heralded up-coming "meeting" with Kenwright to discuss plans for transfers going into next season does not yield the desired results. I've never bought off on this line of thinking: yes, I'm going mostly by what DM and BK say and do ? which could admittedly be risky ? but there is no sign of any chink between them. Far from it: Moyes has repeatedly underlined (a) how his plans for the team have been consistently supported by BK, and (b) how well-run the club is (No laughing at the back!)

One pervasive theme on here since January, and the Annual Report & Accounts were published, has been our parlous financial state, and how various things "will" or "must" be done to set us back on the right path:

  • Rodwell will be sold
  • Fellaini will be sold
  • Baines will be sold
  • Loanees must be sold off
  • Deadwood must be sold off
  • High earners must be sold off
  • The debt MUST be reduced
  • We must have a new ground
I can't say I go along with any of this... It is so counter to the way Kenwright and Moyes have been running the club to date. The only player to be deliberately cashed in on was Rooney. I don't think the same applies to Lescott or Pienaar, who both wanted out. And what has really changed in the fiscal field??? Remember, we have been in austerity mode for at least the last THREE SEASONS!!! During that period, no-one has been sold off to generate funds for players...

Yet it's only this season that our money problems seem to have really struck home. I guess what might have changed is the spree of loan deals, ostensibly to get players off the books. But wait a minute: Where did we hear that from? Was it the same smart Alecs who claimed Everton were on the brink of Administration? I think Yak, Yobo and Vaughan are each individual cases that have gone for specific and very different reasons. Silva was probably homesick; the rest are all Academy/Reserves players... Many fans have lauded the Moyes program of OTJ experience for such players... are they really out just to get them off the books? Or is the longer-term plan to accelerate their progress / make-or-break them?

But this is straying a little bit off topic: the real issue I wanted to focus on from that list is the last one. [Now this may be the hard part for some to follow, but please, read carefully:] Just as I have always maintained that David Moyes is Going Nowhere*, I believe that a change in Kenwright's position as Chairman and part-owner in the near future is equally unlikely. All the indications are that we are blessed with / stuck with [delete as appropriate!] this Dynamic Duo for some time to come.

For the incessant ramblers who insist I have an anti-Moyes agenda, have I ever actually called for Moyes to be removed and replaced with another manager? No; Have I ever suggested that he could be doing a better job IN HIS CURRENT AND FUTURE POSITION AS EVERTON MANAGER, with the resources he has? Yes...

But I don't really want to talk about that. I want people to address the question of their love for Moyes and hatred for Kenwright, which strikes me as a very odd dichotomy, given (what I believe to be) the reality of the relationship between them. Strong, close, respectful, admiring... lots of positive vibes in anything published out there regarding that relationship. Yet a number of Evertonians see Kenwright and his ultimate financial impotence as the root cause of our mid-table mediocrity.

I guess all I'm saying is I think they are a team, and that ? if you are going to go all weak at the knees over Moyes and how wonderful he is ? then you should perhaps reconsider what verges on your total hatred for Kenwright. He's Everton through and through and he's not going anywhere either.

Logically, if we are to campaign for removal of one, then we should campaign for removal of both. But [Agaain read carefully:] I'm not that inclined to campaign for the removal of either.

I don't like Kenwright's manifest lies... but there does not seem to be any realistic alternative to him (as in: all the alternatives suggested to date seem to be, or are proven to be, unrealistic). He shows no sign of selling up despite the confusion over many interested parties, but no serious offers... so, no matter what opposition there is to him among a portion of the Everton fanbase, I don't think he's going anywhere. He shows no signs of going anywhere.

Similarly, I don't like Moyes's failings (see some of my previous posts for details...) but there really is no realistic alternative to him ? not because no-one could replace him, not because no-one would replace him ? but because (you guessed it): He is Going Nowhere.

Now I know a lot of fans are going to be confused by this. My thinking may not be all that clear but I implore you to try thinking clearly about this before responding with the usual "anti-Moyes" bollocks. This is our club we are talking about. Part of our problem seems to be that fans are very up for Fantasy Football. Personally, I hate it. I hate transfer speculation; I hate predicting results; I hate football management games... to me, they all detract from what really matters, which is the day-to-day reality of Everton Football Club and it's place in English Football.

Moyes is not a dream Manager, but he's what we have. I just wish he'd do a better job... fantasy? perhaps.

Kenwright is not a dream Chairman, but he's what we have. He could certainly better but has failed and arguably should sell up... but shows no sign of doing so.

Campaigning for replacements is full of pitfalls. Naming replacements is worse ? Fantasy Football at its most inane. Is it not better to accept the reality that these are our incumbent custodians? And ? if we feel they are not fulfilling their roles well enough ? campaign that they should do better? For the sake of Everton Football Club?

Reader Comments

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Peter Bourke
1   Posted 26/05/2011 at 07:23:35

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Mike, that is probably the best article you have written all year.

Whilst we need to be realistic i suppose it doesn't do too much harm if people want to have their occasional rant and fantasise over what should or shouldn't happen. But we should always be striving for better without ever forgetting why or what we are so passionate about and that is the success of our beloved football team. In this current enviroment we could be doing a lot worse and also could be doing a bit better but above all we can only support our Club and what we have as its assets.

Earlier in the season people were campaigning to get rid of DM and naming replacements such as Holloway et al, but again as I say, given the current footballing enviroment and the assets and resources we have, things could be a lot, lot worse. I am not for one second accepting mediocrity and would love EFC to be a force in Europe again but you have to be realistic and not get too carried away with past glories and look at the here and now.

I am sure we will be competative again next year in our own inconsistant way but I will continue to support the club I love and campaign for improvement in the hope that the glory days will be here once again.

Eric Myles
2   Posted 26/05/2011 at 07:56:25

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Campaign that they should do better?

I think the majority of fans have become jaded with the false dawns and broken promises from this 'dynamic duo' and feel there's no possibility of old dogs learning new tricks.

Hence the calls for change.

Gavin Ramejkis
3   Posted 26/05/2011 at 07:35:23

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Michael, people far closer to the club than you and I such as Colin Fitzpatrick have made us all aware of the growing number of mortgages on Goodison Park, the last one in December seeming to be taken to pay the interest of another mortgage. It's open knowledge that Pienaar wanted out of the club but the destination of the fee the club gained for him went unanswered as did the loan fee for Yakubu, any we got for Vaughan and Yobo together with the wage savings of those and the youth loanees.

When a club has consistently filed it's annual return early then suddenly ships a proportion of players out the door before filing them with not a single even loan player in return it smacks of financial troubles. The stage managed meeting with Elstone didn't pose or answer any questions relating to the Pienaar money, Yakubu and Yobo and Vaughan or any other wage savings or why not even a loanee appeared in January..

Not a question on the growing mortgages on Goodison Park, not a single question regarding the Park End development delay/failure. The silence from the club regarding very serious financial issues and lack of acumen leads some who have businesses to question how safe the club is in the current custodian's hands. I'll agree it's speculative but not fantasy and well within reason.
Derek Thomas
4   Posted 26/05/2011 at 07:48:07

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I think that you have summed it up pretty good, this piece adds more to your Moyes and the lottery win some lose some Theory.

Only an almost unique ( and as yet unknown ) set of circumstances will cause one or both to move on...and there is no sign yet... but it will happen, things always change in the end, nothing stays the same. Just what are the odds though.

Moyes's and Kenwright's 'good' points have got us where we are.

Moyes's and Kenwright's 'bad' points stop us from going much further.

The ball will spin odd or even, red or black every time, except the once in a blue moon when it lands on Zero... then all bets are off.

That will be the unique set of circumstances.

When and what it will be, is beyond the ken of this mere mortal.

The odds on zero coming up are (?) 36:1 but in reality it is a lot longer, as any habitue of the casino will tell you.

In the case of Everton and Roulette, in the end, the bank always wins.

How long can Everton and Moyes keep beating the Bank / House and in the main over-achieve?

What was it? 14 or 15 draws that some say we should have won. What if we had an under achievement run and we lost those 14 or 15.

Which could have left us with 39 or 40 points and a serious case of squeaky bum syndrome.

We need someone to 'Comp' us.
Chris Matheson
5   Posted 26/05/2011 at 08:44:28

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Hi Michael.

Despite his failings I am pro-Moyes. I am very anti-Kenwright.

If Moyes left we would still have our problems. If Kenwright left then there is a decent chance the club would be better-run and have more money to spend. Not a cast-iron guarantee, but a decent chance. And who knows? Maybe Moysey would be more expansive and adventurous with better players.

We believe that there is no alternative to DM because we have a good idea of which football managers are out there, who would be available and who would do any better than him on the same limited budget. However, we have no idea who is out there with money to spend, a desire to spend it on football, and, best of all, a desire to spend it on Everton. So we do not know if there is any realistic alternative to Kenwright, especially as he may have been turning away all comers.

I agree that Kenwright doesn't look like he's going to sell up, and although I do not hold out much hope I do see the possibility of a campaign to remove him ? but I really don't hold out much hope. But campaigns such as that can germinate on talk boards such as this one of yours. So to suggest that something is not worth doing because it is unlikely to succeed is..well I would rather at least have a go.

And with a new chairman and board, with business acumen and a bit of spare cash, DM would have nowhere to hide.

Now Davey, about leaving nobody up when defending corners......

Richard Dodd
6   Posted 26/05/2011 at 09:03:52

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Perhaps we would do better if some of our stars struck a level of consistency in their performances. Their failure to do so this past season must be as frustrating to Moyes as it is to us. Time and time again,a heartening performance has been followed by sheer dross and I just can`t get my head round that!

But let me take you to task about this `mid-table mediocrity`. Only rarely during this manager`s tenure have we finished as low as `mid-table`, usually up there with hopes of Europe enduring to the season`s end. As we`ve all said these last few months, "If only a few of those draws......." Perhaps next season will be different!

Gareth Humphreys
7   Posted 26/05/2011 at 09:14:20

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Michael, more utter utter shite. Are you honestly struggling to get your head around how people can like David Moyes and dislike Bill Kenwright simply because they themselves get on?

Well try this, David Moyes has turned the playing staff around in his tenure giving us 7 top 8 places in his 9 full seasons. To put that in context, we had one other top 8 finish between him joining and 1990.

Bill Kenwright has fucked up everything he has touched since he came to power, has saddled us with a bucket load of debt, and in the richest league in the world provides his manager with no money.

Is that simple enough for you?

James Martin
8   Posted 26/05/2011 at 09:18:19

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Progress has undoubtedly been made under their tenure, not at the rate a lot of us want/expect but undeniably so. League position has improved dramatically, training facilities have improved, the academy, the retail outlets, calibre of players, value of the squad, all have improved rather irrefutably. To the point where yes we've had one bad season, our best two midfielders haven't perfomed/ have been injured and very few players have really performed to their potential.

It seems that next season the only way therefore is up. We're disappointed because many of us feel we could get into the Champions League spots with even marginally better managing from Moyes/performance of players. It is to Moyes's and Kenwirght's credit that this expectation is set so high.

I remember reading in The Echo after Moyes's first seaosn in charge the chief executive (think it was Wyness) coming out and saying a top 5 finish was possible: I remember laughing him off, such was our plight. Now, even fifth wouldn't satisfy many of us because we know the potential of this team.

I like them both, and they are what we have, however much people disagree with that. Let them get on with their jobs improving Everton football club on and off the pitch ? perhaps at a quicker rate though!

(I know the predictable come back of, "but its been 9 years..." will be hurled vehemently back... but how long do people expect it to take to build up a relegation-threatened team to trophy winners with hardly any money? Most teams that have hired or fired without real money behind them have either gone nowhere or won a trophy then gone down.)

Tommy Coleman
9   Posted 26/05/2011 at 09:27:54

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I think we are all agreed that Kenwright has been useless and only gets away with what he does because he's a blue.

As for Moyes, I'd like to ask The Moyes Nut-Huggers 2 questions:

1. Would you take another 9 trophyless years of him in charge?

2. If he's so good, why hasn't the likes of Chelsea or Man Cty come in for him?
Peter Bourke
10   Posted 26/05/2011 at 09:55:49

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@Tommy Coleman. Just because some people have a bit of realism about their comments doesn't make them Moyes nut-huggers as you put it.

In answer to your question, here's two more hypothetical questions for you.

1. Would you prefer to gamble with another manager risking relegation or be safe in the top flight with some hope of European football under Moyes?

2. Explain how Moyes has consistently won Manager of the Month awards and is regarded by his peers as one of the best managers in the EPL? How do you know those clubs haven't come in for him?

Chris Matheson
11   Posted 26/05/2011 at 09:50:12

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Tommy those are good questions. And the answers to both must be no and they can afford a proven manager.

Moyes has done well to keep us out of danger despite all the limitations placed upon him by Kenwright's failings in the boardroom.

Under a different regime he may well continue to be negative. But I can't see anyone doing any better under the Kenwright regime.

Until we get rid of Kenwright our problems will remain whoever the team manager.

Kenwright's lacklustre, incompetent and unimaginative regime is the root of our problems. But hey, he's a blue and used to go in the Boys' Pen.
Gavin Ramejkis
12   Posted 26/05/2011 at 09:59:22

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Doddy, I agree that far too many players have underachieved this season but that needs to be tempered with playing out-of-form players week-in, week-out and rigidly and over stubbornly putting players into positions which don't match their strengths ? ie, Arteta too deep to have any effect, Rodwell played all over the park ? both of those failings are down to David Moyes.
Tommy Coleman
13   Posted 26/05/2011 at 10:18:14

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You didn't answer my questions, but I will answer yours.

1. Yes, I cannot stand another safety first, average season, I'd take that gamble.

2. Winning MotM or MotY doesn't mean a thing to me, he should have won a trophy by now. I know these clubs haven't come in for him because he's still here with us.

Exactly, Moyes isn't proven yet he's had the chances and money. Agree with you regarding Kenwright.
Trevor Mackie
14   Posted 26/05/2011 at 10:22:27

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Moyes and Kenwright are designed as mid table dynamos (sorry Bally for mangling your epithet) ? if you accept that (and Bally wouldn't) you put up with "existing" in the Prem.

If you don't, you feel removed from the club ? you still support the institution, but the lack of ability all round isn't the Everton of legend and you can't wait for their tenure to end.
Eugene Ruane
15   Posted 26/05/2011 at 10:42:41

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Regarding Peter Bourke's first question (11), I too would take that 'gamble'.
Tony J Williams
16   Posted 26/05/2011 at 10:57:57

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"he should have won a trophy by now" - Why Tommy? It's a serious question. Why do you believe, with the set of players he has had at his disposal in the last 9 years should he have won something? When did longevity equate to success?

"Moyes has repeatedly underlined (a) how his plans for the team have been consistently supported by BK, and (b) how well-run the club is" ? Because he is an employee and when employees have a go at their employer, they don't last long in their jobs.
Dave Wilson
17   Posted 26/05/2011 at 10:48:02

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I think you are way wide of the mark Michael.
I don't believe Moyes is loved nor do I believe Kenwright is hated.

Many fans want Kenwright gone mainly because he is unable to back his manager in the same way other chairman back theirs. It's not a question of "hate". He`s skint and therefore neither use nor ornament.

And where did this Moyes is "loved" or "can do no wrong" idea come from?

Davey Moyes is working with little or no transfer kitty, but he makes a decent fist of it, for that he hugely is respected... but "can do no wrong"? Who says? And who says he is loved? Only trophy winners are loved?
There is a very clear difference between the affection the fans feel for Everton legends and the respect they have for Moyes.

People will use terms like "apologist" when describing fans who appreciate and respect the constraints under which Moyes operates are (imo) demonstrating a clear lack of knowledge, they think because other fans (the overwhelming majority) respect and support Moyes, they are blind to his failings ? They're not, and to suggest they are is not only inaccurate, it's idiotic.

There is no such thing as "Moyes nut-Huggers" ? just ill-informed people who continue to demonstrate just how far they are out of touch with our club and its fanbase by thinking there is.

If you dont batter Moyes at every opportunity, you are a raving apologist... genius.
Tony J Williams
18   Posted 26/05/2011 at 11:27:08

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"The only player to be deliberately cashed in on was Rooney. I don't think the same applies to Lescott or Pienaar, who both wanted out" - So did Ronney.
Mike Allison
19   Posted 26/05/2011 at 12:33:09

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Can anybody find any post anywhere that says David Moyes 'can do no wrong'?

We get the same nonsense straw man argument over and over again on this site.

Nobody holds that belief, so don't argue against it. Supporting him, and thinking he's a good manager, is NOT the same as 'thinking he can do no wrong'. The rest of the post is invalidated by using such a lazy, pointless phrase as one of your basic premisses.

Moyes can do wrong, and does more often than I would like, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of him because everyone does wrong, and I think most other people wouldn't do as much right as he does in the same job. Argue against that point of view if you want to criticise Moyes, not a made up one that NOBODY holds, or EVER states.
Adam Bennett
20   Posted 26/05/2011 at 12:49:02

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There where a few times during the first half of this season when David Moyes left me absolutely fuming, and I came close to calling for his head a couple of times. I never got all the way there.

As for me, considering that most other teams in the Premier League have out spent him and that he can?t go out and blow £30-odd million on two strikers, which would improve us dramatically, and that he will probably have to sell one of our ?prize assets? this summer, I feel on the whole he is doing an excellent job.

He is a man who is trying his best under the circumstances given to him, and doesn?t bad mouth those above him in public, which for me is the right thing to do. I remember Benitez doing just that at Liverpool and then at Inter, and everyone in the media and beyond gave him an absolute grilling, and was made to look a joke. A few months later he was out of the Liverpool job. A weekend later he lost his Inter job. Maybe Moyes has ripped into Kenwright behind closed doors and doesn?t want to ?wash our dirty linen in public?? No-one on here, or any other Evertonian, knows what goes on in their private meetings.

Kenwright on the other hand is a fucking liar who, along with his board, have fucked up every single thing they?ve tried to do. Constantly mislead supporters, racked up debt and sold off assets, even though Moyes has had sod all to spend (net).

He refuses to answer any difficult questions posed to him, to the point now where it?s always down to his CEO to address the fans and media.

He gets Philip Green involved and refuses to say exactly what his role is. CEO?s signing confidentiality agreements when they leave to keep their mouths shut - and is so desperate to do so, that we had something you?d see in a gangster film scene with Green and Earl power boating their way across the Mediterranean to make sure Wyness kept quiet!

Moyes is a good man, doing a good job. Kenwright is a liar who values his ego above the greater good of the club.

To re-word the Manchester United supporters quote?? Like Moyes; Hate Kenwright!
Simon Harris
21   Posted 26/05/2011 at 12:24:31

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Chris Matheson sums up my thoughts perfectly, I trust that doesn't make me a 'nut-hugger'..

Get Kenwright out, then give Moyes a chance with some decent money to spend and a board with ambition.

I think he's earnt and deserves a proper crack at it!

Alas, I fear we may well be having the same debate this time next year, and the year after that.....
Jay Harris
22   Posted 26/05/2011 at 12:51:51

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Michael I think you are aiming for the record number of posts on this one.

Never before I have seen such a division of opinion between fans on these two individuals.

And there is the rub, they are individuals.

Moyes to me is an honest, principled and dignified man who has the total respect of (most of) his players and peers in the game.

Yes his team selections and lack of Holloway style of gung ho is frustrating but you cant argue with his consistency particularly given the paucity of his squad to be able to make changes when players are not playing well.

On the other hand as pointed out by other posters not only has Kenwright been unsuccessful in his position he has constantly been caught in lies and contempt for fellow evertonians.

Two things I will NEVER forgive Kenwright for:

1. Totally fucking up the Kings Dock development for his own gain and alienating LCC in the process.

2. Totally deceiving fans about the Armageddon that would have been destination Kirkby so that he and his cronies could make some money.

I can understand his arrogance and penchant for lies but his continuous ruinatiion of EFC is unacceptable.

True Blue my arse.

Paul Foster
23   Posted 26/05/2011 at 13:36:27

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Two things:

1. Rooney desperately wanted out too - he felt he'd outgrown the club. That the club realised this was a chance to make money is neither here nor there. Rooney wanted to go. He wanted to win titles and be named European player of the year etc. etc. It's disingenuous to imply otherwise.

2. Gareth Humphries (8) is absolutely spot on. This article is strange. To me, it's quite a simple situation. There is no contradiction/hypocrisy involved whatsoever in having enormous respect for Moyes but little respect for Kenwright. So what if Moyes has a fantastic working relationship with Kenwright? That is neither here nor there. What matters is that Moyes has done astonishingly well for us. That isn't apologetic. That is just a matter of fact. He took over a club on its way into the Championship. Can you remember the way journalists used to write about us? We were bracketed with the likes of Southampton, Charlton and Blackburn at the time. Today, we're respected once again. And that's thanks to Moyes.
John Wright
24   Posted 26/05/2011 at 14:17:29

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Adam at #20 perfectly put. Moyes is the epitomy of decency and doing his best. Lesser men would have walked away a long time ago. None of us know what goes on 'behind closed doors' and that will never change, however we should at least expect to hear answers to basic issues... with the latest Park End debacle a prime example of the 'Silent Movies'.
Phil Bellis
25   Posted 26/05/2011 at 14:41:23

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Nowt to do with the happy couple, really, but there's a saying in the world of management and personnel appraisal ? "you can't be insulted by someone you don't respect". Similarly, you don't like being told how to do your job by someone you don't respect.

However...please Moyesey, four things:1. Tell the players that it's really OK to take a quick throw, even in if you're not a fullback, when there's a chance of catching out the opposition

2. Tell them, also, you can run around a bit and make it easier for the thrower and harder for your marker

3. It's OK when you've made space to have pop at goal

4. FFS ? one of you, at least, stand on the half-way line when we're defending a corner.

Tony J Williams
26   Posted 26/05/2011 at 14:52:59

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Two No 3's but both points that I would love him to drum into the overpaid feckers.
Denis Richardson
27   Posted 26/05/2011 at 12:56:29

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Mike - I agree with what you have written but what conclusion are you trying to make?

If both chairman and manager are 'Going Nowhere' and we accept this, then what does that leave us with?

We cannot wish for a new chairman (not happening), we cannot wish for a new manager (not happening), we cannot wish for multiple quality signing (no cash), we cannot wish for a new stadium (no cash) - does not exactly leave anything else to talk about other than simply hope the current team 'does as best as it can'.

Looking at the transfer rumours and about which playes, managers, etc could potentially do a better job or will potentially join the club, at least allows us to DREAM of something better and put to one side the often very average football on offer and the current status of the club - be they realistic or not.

Isn't one of the points of football to allow fans to dream of what might/could be?

If nothing is going to change and we cannot dream, then you may as well shut the site down and we can all find another way to spend a large chunk of our time.

I for one would like to see the chairman go. What I think of the manager is not relevant as, IMHO, the medium to long term success of the club depends on changing the chairman/board - if the new one decides to keep Moyes then so be it. The club needs a clear strategy from top to bottom and this the responsibility of the board. This may not happen anytime soon but it will happen some day.
Sam Hoare
28   Posted 26/05/2011 at 17:02:00

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I'm not sure its right to say that because they abide or even praise each other that they are therefore 'a team' and cannot be seperated as such. Anichebe and Baines play for the same team but does that mean we cannot praise one and question the other? No i don't believe it does.

A good manager will know that rifts do not help anyone and will follow his chairman's word because ultimately he is the boss and paymaster.

Equally a chairman who reckons he has a good young manager is not going to risk forcing him out by making unrespectful comments.

This does not necessarily mean the two of them see eye to eye on everything and it certainly does not mean that we cannot appraise their performances individually.

Sorry MK but though your article is well written i believe your logic is flawed.
Jeremy Benson
29   Posted 26/05/2011 at 18:32:33

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What is it they say... "familiarity breeds contempt"?

And that's the problem isn't it? The Moyes-Kenwright dream team has delivered reasonable success over the last 8 years or whatever it is. But, as Evertonians, we want MORE.

The realisation has dawned that we've reached a stalemate; we've all, grudgingly, come to the conclusion that nothing is going to change under this partnership and we'll be forever "nearly men". The weaknesses are exposed, the limitations obvious.

So... we demand a change. Either, both. Born out of frustration.

We've all been there ? that girlfriend/wife who has been around so long that we neglect and start to dream of Miss Perfect. Only to realise a few years later that we never had it so good and wished we'd never changed. The grass isn't always greener.

But what to do... we can but dream. It's run its course. But I wonder if in a few years, we'll be looking back with melancholy and wonder, "What if..."?

I like Kenwright. I like Moyes. I like the partnership. But change is inevitable as we strive to be successful. My fear is that this is as good as it gets.
Mike Gwyer
30   Posted 26/05/2011 at 19:22:04

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Jay #22.

"Never before I have seen such a division of opinion between fans on these two individuals."

Jay, there is no great division. The pro Moyes possie far out way those who want him out - it really is no contest.

As for Kenwright, obviously his long term plan of buying cheap and selling expensive has gone tits up. So going forward blue Bill needs investment help bigtime, plus he's probably hoping that no one ask's - "who is really pulling the strings that control EFC?".
Roberto Birquet
31   Posted 26/05/2011 at 22:22:16

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"despite copious evidence to the contrary".

Ok, I'll try to read the rest, but so far I'm thinking. So, it's just we don't see all the dosh he's been given. Goddam, we're blind...
Andy Crooks
32   Posted 27/05/2011 at 00:00:01

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Mike, no doubt the pro-Moyes camp outnumber the Moyes must go camp. However there is a pretty large middle ground who wavered toward "Moyes must go" during the seasons many low points. The good finish changed that and it is reflected on this site.

Moyes is held in high regard by a majority of match going Evertonians. Saturday demonstrated that clearly. I disagree with them but I'm in a minority. Also. I believe that the majority of those who would like to see change are not blind to Moyes's talents or what he has done.

Back to Michael's article. I cannot envisage a situation where either Moyes or Kenwright will be here without the other. David Moyes has considerable power, in fact, more power than he would have at any other club. The only clubs he would go to, now wouldn't want him; so, some day, at his own choosing, it will be Scotland or Celtic.

James Flynn
33   Posted 27/05/2011 at 02:22:04

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Well, ownership thought they had a good thing in new stadium development and fucked it up. Don't know why, but can't see why "Kenwright et al out" is unjustified. They've earned the sizziling they get here.

On the manager front, I've stated and believe, very, very few managers/coaches in any sport matter. I've seen nothing in 55 years to prove different.

Moyes matters. Doing what he has these years:

Moving the team from genuine relegation possibilities.

Creating a style requiring every opponent to be on top of their game when playing Everton ("It's never easy against Everton").

These last 2 years, Moyes has re-built the team again to where we lack only (and significantly) players who can finish routinely enough to put a scare into opposing teams' managers.

Resulting in all these losses by one goal/frustrating draws (particularly the draws).

Nothing wrong with Moyes.

Something wrong with ownership generating funds to facilitate our last step into contending for the League Trophy.
Jonathan Tasker
34   Posted 27/05/2011 at 08:40:33

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Sport Magazine this morning give Moyes a highly commended rating ? we spent no money last season and still somehow improved from 8th the previous season to 7th.

Not sure many / any other managers would have managed that.

Meanwhile, please can we buy some strikers this time. I would sell Rodwell, who hardly plays anyway, to fund some strikers. Craig Mackail Smith would be good; DJ Campbell is available.
Tony J Williams
35   Posted 27/05/2011 at 08:58:34

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We may have improved league placing wise but we scored fewer points.

Andy, the biggest issue we "apologist" have with the "nay sayers" are that there are so many posters on here who, no matter what point is put across, will simply roll out the "apologist", "Moyes nut-hugger" etc derogatory term because they usually don't have a debating bone in their body; it's a "Moyes is shit and anyone who doesn't agree with me is a (insert daft tag here)" mentality.

On a previous thread I mentioned you will always see the "apologists" include a bit about Moyes weaknesses but the high and mighty ones simply ignore any other data and steam full ahead with lies or lob-sided arguments... we haven't beat a top 4 side in how many attempts ? we beat the 3rd placed team twice this season... but we got beat twice by West Brom... and we beat Citteh, The Shite and Chelski.

There is no rounded debate with them and it usually descends into name-calling or cocky comments about posters not understanding points because of the writers highly intellectual mind etc.

No-one has ever posted that Moyes can do no wrong, no one, yet apparently that's what we all think because we refuse to call him a cunt.
Tommy Coleman
36   Posted 27/05/2011 at 10:30:27

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I'm glad my "Moyes Nut-Huggers" has kicked off. :)
Dave Wilson
37   Posted 27/05/2011 at 11:12:51

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So am I Tommy.

One day you`ll realise that you absolutely murder any valid points intelligent people like Michael or Andy might raise.

Way to go lad.
Tony J Williams
38   Posted 27/05/2011 at 13:13:37

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Small things amuse small minds Tommy ;-)
Trevor Mackie
39   Posted 27/05/2011 at 13:47:05

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The great thing about yours and similar is the familiar listing of Moyes faults with no contradiction but a concentration on "shoot the messenger".

You have the audacity to refer to "rounded debate; name calling" etc - the irony is completely lost isn't it?
Joe Rourke
40   Posted 27/05/2011 at 13:59:41

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I'd largely agree with Jeremy @29 except for the bit about neglecting the missus 'cause she'd kill me if she heard that...

BTW Did anyone did a good look at David Conn's article of the 19th last which laid everything bare in simple terms across the premier league in terms of finances. Everton and Kenwright/Moyes fared very, very well as long as you made fair comparisions...

In summary the articla said of everton "Outlook
If Everton could appreciatetheir blessings ? homely old ground, steely manager, strong team ? they could be happy, but the club wants success."
Tony J Williams
41   Posted 27/05/2011 at 14:32:48

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Trevor, eh?

The second point, I can be as juvenile and pedantic as the next person.... and usually am as soon as the name calling starts.
Art Jones
42   Posted 27/05/2011 at 19:53:24

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I am very pro-Moyes and very anti-Kenwright. My reasons for my anti-Kenwright feelings can be summed up in a series of capital letters:-
KD, DK, FS , NTL... and that's just for starters

Moyes though, despite my admiration, has of course made mistakes, I don't think he's that arrogant for him to not know this himself. However, nobody can deny that he has transformed the playing side of the club; we now have respect rather than pity, or even worse, the laughing stock we were when we had our perennial relegation battles. Thankfully, those days are gone; we have some very valuable players that have been bought for a far smaller amount than they are worth; we have a fantastic academy that is really successful and a team that, when the players are fit and are in-form, are capable of beating anyone and frequently do so.

Moyes isn't the greatest manager we've ever had but he's certainly one of the best in the Premier League and having to replace him could be a disaster. A new Chairman would be a blessing.

Derek Thomas
43   Posted 28/05/2011 at 04:18:55

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Michael Kenricks short version seems to be.

Nothings going to change in the next few years, get used to it and get over it.

Me, being unsure that Moyes is the total package, will grudgingly put up with him, agreeing with MK's short version.

But wish to fuck that Kenwright was replaced with someone with money.

We could then give Davey a proper run and if there was no change in two seasons or maybe three, well, off you go, Davey ? you have had a fair trial and been found wanting... Next!
John Audsley
44   Posted 28/05/2011 at 09:24:55

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I respect Moyes and think he has done a superb job in the main. He has to sharpen up, especially pre-season and early season tactics, but he is loved by the fans, BK and most importantly the media.

BK hmmm

I don't like or respect the bloke at all for reasons that we have all discussed on here over the last 10 years... BUT the media and Moyes seem to love the bloke.

He never gets any stick ANYWHERE for his lack of finance, business model or will to sell. Every game I've watched online this year the camera always pans on him when we have had an amazing comeback and look likely to win. He is always grinning and laughing with the Commentator/Co-Commentator saying things like "BK is a true blue, loves the club, works 24/7, wants to sell but no-one wants to buy" etc. It's like they read from a script.

Same with the press, they love the guy and enjoy labeling us as Plucky Everton, fighting above our weight etc.

Until the media recognise that we are totally stagnant and BK and his cronies are to blame for this, he will sit in his seat, next the the bloke with tash n glasses, and gurn 24/7.
Steve Brown
45   Posted 28/05/2011 at 11:30:25

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I was wracking my brains to think of who was the last chairman/manager combination at Everton whose team finished in the top 8 of the league for 5 consecutive seasons. Interested if someone can answer me, though I am guessing that it may have been the 60s when we were labelled the millionaires club.
Peter Hall
46   Posted 28/05/2011 at 16:18:51

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That just all seems obvious to me, except for the need to go into capitals to shout down nutcases.

If you take a long view, it?s a fact that, over the Kenwright-Moyes period, we have gone from being one of the worst teams in the Premier League to one of the best outside the top few. Because we have ? just look at the tables late 90s to 2002 compared to the last five years.

Condemning Kenwright because he hasn?t enough money to take us further is foolish ? might as well condemn you or me for the same reason. I suppose he?d like to have more money himself...

As for Moyes, everyone outside the club believes he?s done a fantastic job with limited resources. I?d just say he?s done a very good job with limited resources, you can hardly say less than that ? and also that he?s the most honest person in football, as far as I can see, and we are the most honest team, and I remain proud of the club.

Of course we all wish it was us playing Barca tonight, but blaming Kenwright for being a pauper by Champions League standards and Moyes for not getting us there using the likes of Beckford and Anichebe ? well, who is going to listen to that?

James Boden
47   Posted 29/05/2011 at 13:57:28

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In my opinion, the board deserve the blame for not being able to, one way or another, back the manager in the transfer market. Moyes's tactics, style of football, and favouritism towards certain players (hint, hint: Osman and Anichebe), I do not like; however, he has done very well in his time and I believe on average we would be the 6th best team as opposed to the previous decade where it would probably be nearer to 13th or 14th.

So there are positive signs even if several cup humiliations have understandably clouded that.

Ste Traverse
48   Posted 29/05/2011 at 19:42:02

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Peter Hall. I don't think people criticise Kenwright for being a relative pauper, it's because he acquired the club as an act of self-indulgence with no idea how to fund it... and he still doesn't.
Roman Sidey
49   Posted 30/05/2011 at 02:28:58

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I would seriously jump for joy and probably have a smile all day if people could find another way of saying Moyes has done better than expected, rather than putting the word 'acheived' or 'success' in the same sentence as his name.
Peter Hall
50   Posted 31/05/2011 at 00:09:01

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An act of self-indulgence?

Maybe you know more than I do about acts of self-indulgence, but taking Everton from there to here doesn't quite match with my understanding of the term.


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