Valdes ? Howard. A simple choice for goalkeeper, but Howard is never as good as Van der Sar / De Gea, Cech or even Reina. A good goalkeeper but bordering on a top 6 or top 4 side.
Alves ? Coleman. If you want a right-back to bomb forward then surely Seamus is your man. Defending is still questionable, but isn?t Alves?s? I?d say give Coleman a chance at right-back and have both full-backs attacking to really worry the opposition. Difficult to give a verdict on Coleman as a lot of it is potential and being played out of position, however, for what it?s worth, a top 6 side, good, but not good enough yet for a Champions League team.
Abidal ? Baines. Attacking-wise, Baines is probably better than Abidal but Abidal is better defensively and has the versatility to play in the centre. Both Everton full-backs would give a great two-pronged attack from either wing. After this season, Baines is at least equal to Evra, Cole or Clichy. Champions League quality without a doubt.
Puyol ? Jagielka. For Mr Barca, read Mr Everton. Both no frills, 100% commitment, great tackling centre-backs. Neither are great at distribution, but defensively, you don?t get much better, every great team needs one, be it Vidic, Terry or Puyol. Like Puyol, this player should ideally be captain, so there?s the armband, Jags. On defensive ability alone, Champions League quality.
Pique ? Heitinga. A ball playing centre-back that stops the team playing hoofball, therefore Johnny gets my vote. Heitinga is good enough to play at centre-back in a World Cup Final so why Moyes doesn?t play him there is beyond me. Everton might lack height in defence with Jags & Johnny therefore a tall defensive midfielder is needed. Verdict: As a centre-back, top 4 side, so play him there or sell him.
Busquets ? Fellaini. You don?t get much taller than our big Belgian in his self-proclaimed best position. Felli can break up the play and his passing is underrated, as Busquets's is. With Coleman and Baines bombing forward, Fellaini will drop back almost alongside Jagielka and Heitinga and can easily start an attack himself. Fellaini still has plenty of potential but top 4 side quality already.
Xavi ? Arteta. I?ve always thought that Arteta?s best position is as an attacking supporting role. However with Everton?s lack of technically gifted central midfielders, Arteta takes the focal point role of the team that Xavi plays for Barca. Probably the most important player in this system, the role needs maturity and responsibility (vice-captain) and will therefore hopefully get some of Mikel?s form back. It is a defensive role, but not as much as it seems Moyes was having Mikel play. This gives him a chance to get forward and create. The jury is out on Arteta after such a poor season but, being slightly biased, I will still say top 6. European quality but not good enough for Champions League.
Iniesta ? Osman. With creative and gifted central midfielders being the objective, it really only leaves Ossie. However, this role could suit him as it?s a central attacking role with not too much defensive responsibility. None of Cahill, Neville or Heitinga have the attributes so Osman gets the nod. Perhaps Arteta could play the Iniesta role but the idea is to have two creative central midfielders, that?s what makes Barcelona tick. Spurs have tried it this season with Modric and Van der Vaart and looked very good. Everton?s two mini maestro?s conducting but unfortunately Osman is only mid-table quality.
Messi ? Saha. Ok, I?m getting desperate now, but then again there is probably no-one else in the world who can replicate Messi. Messi now plays as a No 9 in the middle of the attack but drops back into an old No 10 position, à la Rooney or Sheringham, and picks the ball up from Iniesta or Xavi. Saha?s experience is our best bet for this position and he did play well as a traditional No 10 alongside Beckford for a few games last season before getting injured. Ability-wise, Saha is excellent, but injury record is relegation quality: averages out to mid-table.
Pedro ? Gueye. Pedro is a bit of an unsung hero for Barca, a bit like having a secret weapon and not using it! The pacy forward that can also play on the wing and score goals. Step forward that Frenchman with bags of potential, it?s time to see what you?ve got. I?m being nice and considering potential, I?d say mid-table.
Villa ? Beckford. The goal-poacher and main striker. However, Villa plays coming in off the wing when Messi drops deep for the system. Beckford?s ability is pace and can get in behind the defence. Beckford also knows where the goal is, unlike some strikers (Anichebe) but work-rate will need to increase to play the Barca system and hassle the defence when Everton haven?t got the ball. Verdict: A good striker that can score goals but unfortunately not quite good enough for a team with aspirations to challenge in Europe, mid-table.
Summary: The starting team for Evertonelona is Howard, Coleman, Baines, Jagielka, Heitinga, Fellaini, Arteta, Osman, Saha, Gueye, Beckford. I feel that team will certainly do ok and play some nice football. On the subs bench will be Cahill, he doesn?t fit the system at all, and Rodwell who really can?t seem to find his best position but the emphasis is on ball-playing creative players.
Perhaps if Baxter can fulfil some of his potential, he could certainly play Messi?s position and float between the forwards and midfield. Everton could also do with a few forwards that work hard like Barca?s. Someone like Norwich?s James Vaughan is supposed to be good that doesn?t stop running!
That leaves the manager. Moyes gets his team working hard (most of the time) like Barcelona?s but is tactically inept. Even with the finance argument, I don?t think Moyes would sign creative attacking players but likes his hard-working, keep-it-tight players. Moyes is never going to be a Champions League (proper) manager like Mourinho, Ferguson or Wenger or even tactically a Benitez! Therefore Moyes is a top 6 manager. On a good season, he will get a team into the Europa League, but a bad season will be closer to mid-table. No amount of money will make Moyes a better manager.
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1 Posted 29/05/2011 at 15:49:46
2 Posted 29/05/2011 at 16:36:23
I keep reading this accusation that Moyes is tactically inept. For me this statement is complete bollocks, unless its coming from a fellow manager or at least someone who has played at a higher level than Champ manager.
3 Posted 29/05/2011 at 16:44:30
4 Posted 29/05/2011 at 16:57:40
5 Posted 29/05/2011 at 16:58:05
I totally agree with you on wanting to see Jags played next to Johnny H next season though, as I think the two could complement each other quite well; Jags the no-nonsense last ditch tackling typical English CH and Heitinga the more cultured pass-it-from-the-back European style ball player. It pains me to see Distin keeping Heitinga out of a CB position, but we both know that Moyes isn't going to change it unless JH grows an extra left leg.
This is part of the criticism that I would level at Moyes; lose the ridiculous obsessiveness with trying to recreate the team and tactics of our 4th place season and just play a system that works with the bloody players we've got NOW. It can't be that hard to work out, can it?
6 Posted 29/05/2011 at 17:27:17
7 Posted 29/05/2011 at 17:18:09
On the comparisons, the biggest flaw in even trying to give someone a "Messi role" is that his position in the formation relies on his unbelievable ability in beating players truly and purely. No-one does it as well as him, and no-one in an Everton jersey does it more than occasionally.
As a supporter of any other team, watching Messi play for Barca is akin to watching Brad Pitt in Snatch and thinking, "I need to trim down, get some home made tats and a fedora."
8 Posted 29/05/2011 at 17:23:45
On the latter point I actually think Everton are one of the stronger teams in the Premier League (be it by planning or necessity) and do seem able to either develop or unearth some good and indeed occasionally great talent (including our very own Messi, i.e. the one Utd player who didn't look outclassed at Wembley yesterday).
This year's squad saw Coleman, Hibbert , Rodwell, Osman and Anichebe all play a notable part, with Vaughan, Gueye, Vellios and Baxter on the fringes. We also seem to have a new class in waiting with the likes of Dier, Mustafi, Hope, Garbutt, Bidwell, Forshaw and Lundstram all standing a chance of breaking through from youth/reserves.
In terms of philosophy, I'm not so sure. Whilst Moyes has definitely engendered an enviable team spirit at the club on a level that may well be comparable to Barcelona's which knits the team together, there's clearly less commitment to a specific style of play.
Whilst 4-5-1 does seem to be the prevalent first team set-up, both this and the safety first approach are based more on pragmatism (ie, trying to keep up with with better-funded and better-skilled attacking teams and lacking sufficient talent at the front) than ideology.
Despite what most people say on this board, I think Moyes does genuinely want to play passing/possession football and the gradual move in personnel and style from the hoof-ball of the early years to the at times dazzling build-up play we've seen in the last two years (albeit lacking an end product) underpins that.
However, I feel in the face of resources, results and the direct gung-ho approach of the Premier League he's been forced back towards what appears to work in terms of securing results, which is the 4-5-1 hard-working, try and hit on the break approach (more Mourinho than Ferguson/Guardiola).
However, perhaps the time has come for Moyes and indeed all of us to stop resisting and resenting this 'pragmatism', to stop seeing it as 'settling', but rather to accept that in the current situation (and for the next few years at least), this sort of approach is best suited to our budget, playing staff (and the level we can attract) and management team.
Perhaps the time has come to stop endlessly looking back to our glorious history, to yearn for the 'School of Science', but to instead embrace the realities of our situation today, to pin our colours to the mast and commit to this 4-5-1 style. In short, to commit all our efforts and resources on the coaching, youth/reserve team and scouting/transfers to the pursuit of achieving the best possible version of this footballing philosophy (hard to break down, great team spirit, ability to soak up pressure and counter-attack).
In essence, that's what Barcelona have done and if you've read any in-depth interviews with Pep Guardiola or other senior representatives you'll appreciate that their approach is NOT actually all about playing beautiful football first and foremost, rather it's about playing the most effective system to win. It just so happens that their version, the one that fits their resources, their native league, et al is also mesmerising to watch.
However, as we've seen with Wenger's 'Barcelona Lite', the same approach doesn't necessarily hold sway in the Premier League (much as I love them ? and I was at Wembley with my Blaugrana shirt last night) I genuinely don't know if Barcelona would win at a canter for instance when faced week-in, week-out with the relentless pace, direct play, agricultural challenges and differing surfaces/weather conditions of English football).
Anyway, the point I'm making is that what we need to do this summer is face realities and build a system/style football we can commit to and deliver brilliantly and then we can build from that.
9 Posted 29/05/2011 at 18:18:28
10 Posted 29/05/2011 at 18:51:12
At times we do play an exciting passing system that's just that one excellent final ball into the box away from being scintillating.
Of course the professional moaners and perennial hair shirt wearers won't admit this; it robs them of their obsession and ruins their pre-written misery soaked script.
I hope we can keep hold of Baines because he is the source of much of this pass-and-move philosophy. He's formed significant partnerships with two different players on the wide left and I think he's the key to much that's good about Everton. Osman was outstanding for the last three months of the season. Gueye is going to be one to watch ? and I hope that Screech regains the fine form he was in before his lay off. He's got very clever feet and if he manages to educate his head to match them he's going to have a big season next year. Rodwell is clearly finding his feet after injury but, if he stays, I see him and Screech forming a nice little partnership.
The one midfield player who worries me is Arteta ? who is looking very patchy. I think Neville is on his way out to a coaching job. Cahill just doesn't seem to fit ? though his goals do!
Beckford needs more through balls played to his feet ? he had a mediocre season and at times looked outstanding in front of goal ? at other times he looked very ordinary. But he still managed a fair return for starts and I reckon there's 20 goals in him next season, should he stay injury free. Yak was the last Everton player to manage that.
We still need a striker and perhaps another Centre Back as Distin ? excellent though he is ? is living on borrowed time at this stage of his career. I'm not sure Rodwell will ever move to centre half and the young Irish lad doesn't look to have the quality.
All in all I'm cautiously optimistic about next season ? but much can change and it depends on who we can keep, who we get to replace them.
11 Posted 29/05/2011 at 19:37:23
Give Moyes top players like Barcelona have and he would be a ?proper Champions League manager?. The tactics argument is a pile of shit, it all comes down to who has the best players and the money to buy the best players and the ability to motivate them.
12 Posted 29/05/2011 at 19:49:47
err...Messi & Messy perhaps
13 Posted 29/05/2011 at 19:47:35
The present regime makes it a Pandora's box ? keep it shut ? don't go there.
14 Posted 29/05/2011 at 20:06:25
15 Posted 29/05/2011 at 20:08:21
Do you think Moyes could out-tactic Mourinho and his Real Madrid team like Guardiola has done? Moyes would probably send out Barcelona by being defensive and drop Messi for being too much an individual!
As much as football is dictated by money, there is still some element of tactical knowledge it all comes down to, especially at the very highest level.
By the way are Barcelona a great team because of the money they spent? The majority of their team came from their youth academy. Yes, they have the best players in the world but these were made, not bought, by their club.
It shows success can still be achieved with a great youth academy and great teamwork.
16 Posted 29/05/2011 at 20:56:27
Osman is better than anything you'd find in the mid-table of the Premier League and Fellaini, as good as he might be, is already a year older than Busquets and nowhere near him positionally, passing-wise or tackling. They are both very good players for Everton, why do people have to overhype them absurdly in either direction?
17 Posted 29/05/2011 at 21:04:07
Guardiola has won it with that team and Rijkaard before him, and i'm sure if another manager took over next season who could gain the respect of the players would have a very good chance of winning it again should all their key players stay fit. Moyes would probably have to win a few trophies first to gain that respect but the point i am making is tactics have very little to do with it.
As for "Do you think Moyes could out-tactic Mourinho and his Real Madrid team like Guardiola has done? " What like he did with Ancelotti and Mancini two of Europe?s tactical geniuses? Not that he out thought anyone, his players were just more motivated than theirs on the day and wanted it more.
"Moyes would probably send out Barcelona by being defensive and drop Messi for being too much an individual!"
What a ridiculous thing to say. Moyes plays his teams to their strengths, if he had great attacking players like Barcelona he would probably play the same team as guardiola, if he had better defensive players like he does at Everton he will play a more defensive set up instead.
It's not rocket science, it?s a very simple game made over complicated by people like yourself and usually people in the media who have never kicked a ball themselves. It seems to me like you play too many football manager type games and have probably never kicked a football in real life either.
In answer to your question "are Barcelona a great team because of the money they spent?"
The answer is yes they have spent millions down the years, I bet they are one of the biggest spending teams in Spain over the last few decades and I'm sure a lot of money will have been put into their youth academy.
They are now in the position that their previous success means that they have the pick of the best youth and can keep hold of them in a similar way to Man U and Arsenal with the added bonus of being able to take young South American players which our country will not allow unless they have played a certain amount of games for their own country, were as we have to sell our best young players because of our lack of money or they simply join Liverpool instead for the same reason the best youth in spain chose to go to Barcelona, ie money which = success.
18 Posted 29/05/2011 at 22:43:53
Ian, whether Moyes has had to sell players to buy players in the past does not take away from the fact that when he has spent big money on players, he's wasted a lot of it. He has either spent too much on a decent player, or paid a decent amount on a good player, only to stop using them after a season.
People say if he had the same squad and resources as SAF, Guardiola, Mourinho, etc he could do this that and everything in football. BOLLOCKS! He will never have those resources for the simple reason that he isn't of a pedigree that any club with those resources would want him. While the aforementioned managers were making their bones either in big clubs under even bigger football names or working wonders in smaller environments in Scotland, Moyes was plying his trade in Preston.
19 Posted 30/05/2011 at 00:15:22
They are on a different planet than everyone else. I am no Manure fan but recognise that they are a class outfit. They were made to look like a park side last night. Even old red nose admitted they were given a hiding.
Let's keep it real, eh!
20 Posted 30/05/2011 at 00:55:16
21 Posted 30/05/2011 at 00:42:48
I really don?t see what Preston has to do with anything either, every manager has to start somewhere, Where did Brain Clough start his managerial career? Moyes had the opportunity to work under SAF at Man Utd but couldn?t turn an opportunity like Everton down.
It's just so obvious what a top manager Moyes is, all you have to do is look at the league table over the past 20 years and the money spent by each team and you will clearly see a pattern which shows an Everton side facing relegation year-in, year-out, with the top 4 sides more or less the same. Moyes arrives and Everton begin to stabilise, eventually establishing themselves as challengers for European places, all the while spending less money while teams around them are spending more money and yet Everton are still hanging in there.
It defies belief what he has achieved with so little and people have the audacity to come on here and try to belittle the man, you really don?t have a clue. You're as bad as the people on here trying to belittle Barcelona's achievements. Open your eyes!
22 Posted 30/05/2011 at 01:36:44
The tactics argument is a pile of shit, it all comes down to who has the best players and the money to buy the best players and the ability to motivate them. ? Once again, not a place where Moyes has exactly shone brightly. Insufficient motivation to get his better players going sufficiently to put some of the "park the bus" specialists to the sword was a recurring theme this season gone.
I think "tactics" is the wrong focal point. It should be "coaching" ? especially if Everton are to draw any benefit from the Barca masterclass. The simplicity with which their three front-man envisioned and then followed through with three simple yet wonderful goals is exactly what appears to have been coached out of the Everton players ? especially Rodwell.
23 Posted 30/05/2011 at 01:51:45
What I mean is, Moyes plied his trade at a club that really didn't have much power of choice in who managed them, and didn't do much until any old EPL club came knocking (no disrespect to Everton, but in 2002 we weren't exactly who most managers would aspire to manage).
I only compare Moyes to the "top three" managers in the world (questionable), as people keep throwing statements around like "If Moyes had the money that Sir Alex or Mourinho had he could..." which is totally unfounded. The same way you can count on one hand how many bad buys Moyes has made in nine years, so to can I count on one hand how many I think he made that were either smart buys that turned out to be great team servants, or turn a profit for the club.
The thing that bugs me about your argument the most is the same thing that a lot of people make though. ?No more than any other manager has wasted.?
Let other managers of other clubs waste their money; they probably aren?t good enough to manage Champs League finals either.
It might defy belief what Moyes has achieved, but to me, it defies belief that people think he has achieved anything for the club. As I?ve said before, in 20+ years time there will be no asterisks next to the League table archives.
24 Posted 30/05/2011 at 02:00:04
Yakubu, loaned to a lower league club, probably to be sold. Anichebe offered a new five year contract.
25 Posted 30/05/2011 at 01:55:51
I disagree with your assessment that we have had a poor return from his most expensive players. Fellaini has been one of our better players in the last 2 seasons, Yakubu did well until his injury, but is renowned for having a couple of good seasons before going off the boil. Bily hasn?t reached the heights I expected, maybe Moyes should make his own signings instead of listening to people like Guus Hiddink. Andy Johnson also did well and we also got a good return on him.
You say he has "made very limited use of the much vaunted Everton Academy." I disagree with that statement, Osman, Rooney, Vaughan, Anichebe, Rodwell, Baxter and others have all come through under Moyes, more than the majority of other clubs in the league.
As for your next statement that there has been "Insufficient motivation to get his better players going sufficiently to put some of the "park the bus" specialists to the sword was a recurring theme this season gone." Doesn?t that show you the strides that Everton have made under Moyes, that teams are not willing to try to take us on, they fear Everton and treat us like Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal, but unfortunately those teams have more match winners in their ranks to call upon than ourselves?
That is not to say Moyes didn?t get the best out of his better players, we dominated most of the early games. The only one of our better players I can think of who consistently played below their best was Arteta.
Your final statement is the most ridiculous comment of them all. Did Moyes coach the ability out of Rooney, Coleman, Fellaini or Baines? No, and he hasn?t coached the ability out of Rodwell either, the truth is that he is very much overrated but has also suffered from injury resulting in poor performances.
26 Posted 30/05/2011 at 06:18:19
You have the talent or you don't. Pep has done as well as he could with the talent he has. As has Moyes.
Try it another way. How would EFC done better this season with Pep as manager? I know how much better. 54 points, 7th Place. That's how much better.
Wouldn't have done worse. He's a man manager equal to Moyes. No question about that for me. Pep is among the handful who counts.
So does Moyes.
27 Posted 30/05/2011 at 08:22:36
Roman ? Yak is finished so sending him out on loan to put him in the shop window, in hindsight the West Ham offer looked great. Vic is a frustration and of we were honest we would want to clear the pit. With Vaughan & Yak going and Saha injured he had to keep Vic on to save losing him for nothing to foreign club, having lost the great Dam Gosling.
28 Posted 30/05/2011 at 11:51:41
As regards Bily, I actually think he's a very talented player who many fans have determined is crap because he is not given a consistent run in the team in his best position. He will never be a pacy winger. That is not his fault. DM should have known the basic qualities of someone he paid £9m for, not play him out of position till his confidence is shot.
MK is correct too. Our last two results of the season say it all for me: Lost & played off the park by West Brom, beat Chelsea.
If we had battered the "lesser sides" and still lost to a counter attack or set piece, I can live with that. But for the most part they have out-played and out-fought us. A lot of this has been down to overly negative formations and tactics, hoofing the ball up to a lone striker with 3 players to beat and 40 yards between him and the next Everton player.
Aside from all that is the fact that we are skint, yet still able to loan out £15M worth of talent, which we'll now be lucky to get £5M for since it's well publicised that DM doesn't want them back.
I actually think DM is doing a very good job, but I disagree with those who think the guy doesn't have some serious faults. It's a risk to change managers, but I think we could do better as I really can't see us winning anything under his stewardship.
29 Posted 30/05/2011 at 12:13:31
These expensive players, who are they? Our record signing is only £15m, Torres went for £50m, Suarez, untried in the Premier League, £20m+... Our most expensive player is our best one, in my and many others' opinion, he is also linked with a move away to the Sky clubs. Our last record signing, The Yak, became the first player to score 20 goals in a season in over a decade, the one before that was our top scorer and we sold on at a profit.
"Appears to have been coached out of the Everton players ? especially Rodwell" ? Jack has told everyone that he is a centre-half and sees that as his position, so what is getting coached out of Rodwell? Is it his defensiveness, he is being coached to be a more attacking player in midfield... oh hang on! that doesn't tie in with your daft theory that Moyes "coaches" the skill out of players.
30 Posted 30/05/2011 at 15:46:16
31 Posted 30/05/2011 at 15:58:27
But it's a nice and humourous article. Not sure about Beckford playing on the right wing though.
I think instead of looking at Barca, we should look at a very similar looking team, which is Chelsea. Very similar except for their midfield. One (Lampard) is quite creative (can be our Arteta), one (Essien/Ramires) is a box-to-box (can be Rodwell), and the latter (Mikel) is a defensive midfielder (can be Fellaini). That, as well as the defence mentioned in the article would be really good, in my opinion.
The only issue are the top three, which we need to buy for a lot of money, which we don't have. When Chelsea started spending their millions, their front three was Duff, Drogba and Robben. Wow, they were good at the time, and one of the best front three of my generation (I am only 21). Obviously Messi, Villa and Pedro top that, but you see where I'm coming from.
WE NEED £40 MILLION TO BUY 3 GOOD ATTACKING PLAYERS
Gueye and Vellios could maybe do it in the future, but not likely.
But anyway, yeah, that would be the ideal Everton philosophy, that is maybe, 1% of the time realistic, if £40 million magically appears from somewhere.
32 Posted 30/05/2011 at 17:31:28
Oh, wait a minute... No, I think Ian's rosy view is wrong. I think Fellaini's contribution (as with a number of Moyes's more spendy acquisitions) has declined over his seasons with us. A look at the basic statistics for him indicates as much, taking full account of injuries that are part and parcel of football. The stats for Bily, AJ, and Beattie follow a similar pattern, as others have pointed out.
As for our academy players and reserves, the list is really not that impressive (we've discussed this at length before) and Moyes has shown himself very hesitant to use them unless forced by circumstances. And under Moyes, Rodwell has sadly gone backwards in his development, again, allowing for injuries.
33 Posted 30/05/2011 at 18:14:50
The "negative formation" that lost to West Brom, was the same formation that beat last seasons double champions and second placed team in the league. The same formation that did the double over the third placed team too.
34 Posted 30/05/2011 at 18:21:15
What stats are they Michael, surely if they have broke free from the oppressive and suffocating rein of Moyes, they would have shone again with their next teams? Meattie can't even get a game in the Scottish League and how many goals has AJ scored since he left?
Maybe Rodwell has in fact progressed under Everton's coaching, he was a defender after all, now he is being touted as the next great thing in midfield by the daft press.
35 Posted 30/05/2011 at 18:22:02
You would swap a Brazilian international with countless medals and playing in arguably the best club side in history for Seamus Coleman?
Save yourself a lot of time and bother in future by following this simple logic: Man Utd are light years ahead of Everton, Barcelona are light years ahead of Man Utd.
No need to compare us with Barca.
36 Posted 30/05/2011 at 18:31:20
With Fellaini, hmmm... again, not rocket science. He's been playing further back, so it is inevitable his stats arent gona be as good. I bet his tackling is better, his discipline's better and his passing, ie, better attributes for a holding mid.
Fair enuf with Bily and Beattie, who were alrite, not terrible. And AJ must have been doing sumthin right because we gained £3 million profit from him. You can't call that one a bad buy.
I mean, it's Moyes bashing for the sake of it.
I still don't get how Rodwell gets injuries because he's playing worse? It makes no sense.
37 Posted 30/05/2011 at 23:05:14
After all the debate that has gone on this subject (which, I might add, has gone grossly off topic), I, and I think many will agree, that this season was a disappointment and Moyes was to blame more than anyone around him. He had a decent squad at his disposal, depth in every position except left back, and even talked all of this up before the first game.
For that, he should answer, and I for one, would be happy for him to hand in his notice. However, I would be happier if he just stopped being so fucking stubborn and learned some variety.
38 Posted 31/05/2011 at 00:22:24
In hindsight, we have had a decent season finishing above all the teams we expected to finish above and below the teams we expected to finish below realistically. In your own words "he had a decent squad at his disposal" ? I think you will agree we need more than a decent squad to finish in a good position in the league.
Your final comment is a joke. Hand in his resignation! Are you kidding? The same old argument returns... Who would you have to replace him who could miraculously turn this team into Champions League elite with zero money? Let?s talk about the usual candidates who were flavour of the month this time last season who proved themselves to be far below the standards set by Moyes.
Di Matteo, sacked. Hodgson, sacked. Dave Jones, sacked. Holloway, relegated. Martinez, just avoiding relegation by the skin of his teeth. Who is your recommendation to add to this list of great managers?
39 Posted 31/05/2011 at 13:16:44
Look at what Villas-Boas has achieved. Porto won 27 out of 30 league games this season and drew the other 3 and then won the Europa League. Ok, they might be a big team in Portugal but that league record and European trophy is still a massive achievement.
Moyes has steadied the Everton ship and we are no longer regular relegation candidates. However, he is never going to be the same as Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, etc. Moyes has established himself as a 6-10th placed PL manager. If you are happy that Everton finish 6-10th place every year then it's ok, however I am like most Evertonians where we actually believe NSNO. Why don't we deserve better? You seem to be happy with mediocrity.
40 Posted 31/05/2011 at 13:36:02
Mourinho's first club was Benfica, one of the top clubs in Portugal....his first job!
He left after a season (finished 3rd) when to Leiria in the same league and finished 7th, then it all went well for him. From the 7th Placed Leiria he went to the 3rd placed Porto and first season give them the trble, then to 2nd placed Chelsea. Moved on to tyhe champions of Italy and then finally to the second placed Real.... what I am getting at, is that Mourinho has never had to manage a Preston type of team or take over a team that looked like they were about to be relegated. he was lucky at the start but is a fantastic manager, it would be interesting to know what he would have been like taking over Vitoria Fe Guimaraes for his first or second job.
41 Posted 31/05/2011 at 20:15:55
42 Posted 31/05/2011 at 21:05:38
43 Posted 31/05/2011 at 21:00:30
44 Posted 31/05/2011 at 21:29:47
You could have added EFC 9 years ago. Or EFC in 2010. He's like Moyes or any other manager; first you have to have the talent.
As if Pep would be so brilliant if he didn't have brilliant players. No knock on him. He seems to get the best out of Barca players and deserves credit.
But we flip Holloway and Pep this season, Barca still wins last saturday and Blackpool still gets demoted.
45 Posted 31/05/2011 at 22:27:14
Of course he looks a decent keeper in that team but so would most of us he very rarely has anything to do ,but when he does he concedes.
As for Matthews statement that Tim doesn't stand up in comparison to the likes of Van der Sar and that bald tosser at Liverpool but I'm sorry that's laughable he's at least as good as them and would slot into most top sides.
As for this De Gae well it's band wagon time isn't it,he's young and unproven.
There are very few players in the Prem who would get into that Barca side,maybe Rooney,Fabregas and yes Tim Howard!
46 Posted 31/05/2011 at 23:17:03
As for Villas Boas, why bother mentioning him? The chances of him coming to Everton are between slim and zero. But it would be interesting to see what he could do with a side that is not already the best team in the league and without money to improve the side, I bet he would finish lower than Moyes.
Moyes has not established himself as a 6th-10th manager, a fairer assessment would be a 4th -8th place manager, but no I am not happy with 4th or 8th but I am happier with 8th than 18th which is where we would end up without Moyes given the calibre of manager we would attract without money.
Finally we do not deserve better than anyone else, we don?t have a divine right to be the best, how arrogant can you be? you must earn it or buy it; we can?t buy it so we will have to earn it which will take a very long time, so you best learn to be patient.
47 Posted 01/06/2011 at 02:56:08
1. We won't know until someone else has the job.
2. We aren't a Champions League side WITH Moyes, so saying we wouldn't be with Holloway, Di Matteo, etc gives absolutely no defense to Moyes.
Pep has the job at Barca for a very good reason. He is a good man manager, and obviously knows how to get the most out of what he has. Let's be realistic, he has ONE senior striker worth mentioning in his team. Do any of you really believe that the board at Barca just gave him the job? No. He would have sat through countless panel meetings just as other candidates would have, where he would have presented his ideas on football, and at the very least a five year plan.
Can you imagine what Moyes' pitch would be in front of the board of the best club in the world?
"Well, I've had a look at Tenerife and Nastic, and they have a couple of quality centre halves who can hoof the ball up the pitch to one of the strikers from the B team for half a season, and in five years, I'll have a completely different squad to the one I'm inheriting and we can repeat the first step again."
For the record, when Pep took over Barca, they were third in La Liga, which, for their club, is a big fucking crisis. What did he manage them to in his first season? Oh, just six trophies. But you're right, he wouldn't do well with the Everton squad, and Moyes would win the Champs League with the Barca squad.
Pull your tongues out of this ginger twat's arse at least for the off season.
48 Posted 01/06/2011 at 07:56:13
49 Posted 01/06/2011 at 08:02:39
With the majority of his side not yet at their peak although regularly reaching semi-finals and finals of the CL in recent seasons, the team was only ever going to get better. Any side with Messi in it is going to struggle not to win something especially when you add to it 2 of the best 3 midfielders in world football and arguably the best striker in the world plus a sprinkling of a few other World cup winners. Yes i'm sure Moys could balls that up.
Your interview scenario with Moyes is a load of shite . Moyes and any other average joe would walk in and say, if it aint broke don?t fix it, very little needs improving here, if we keep hold of all our players especially Messi we will continue to dominate Spanish and European football as we have before I arrived.
Moyes has to go for lower league players with Everton because that is all he can afford! But leats not for get the ones he has brought it have become England Internationals with one needing to be sold for £24m. That is what Moyes is up against, the moment he gets a good player other teams come sniffing and take them.
50 Posted 01/06/2011 at 13:04:21
Why are we entering competitions that we know Everton are definately not going to win?
I think Moyes has done a very good job at Everton but he is never good enough to take us to the next level because he simply isn't good enough. We need a manager that is 1st-4th placed quality to give us a fighting chance. To recruit such a manager (e.g. Villas-Boas) is extremely unlikely because they know the board can't back them. The only answer is try to find the next (future) 1st-4th quality placed manager before he has reached this level. Nobody knows who this future top quality manager will be so it is a gamble to appoint someone like Lambert or Poyet but at least they have better qualifications than Curbishley, Allardyce, Pardew, etc, etc or even Moyes.
To bury your head in the sand and say lets keep Moyes and not take that gamble is simply settling for mediocrity.
51 Posted 01/06/2011 at 15:31:53
In the last 20 years, name me a team that has won the league because of their manager, not because they have the best players in their squad.
52 Posted 01/06/2011 at 16:24:46
We must also rely on our youth set up and Moyes to bring through the next Osman?s Rodwell?s and hopefully Rooney?s of the world.
Hopefully we will build a side that can break into the top 4, once this is done if we can have a good run like Spurs, the money given for CL qualification will allow Moyes to go for more expensive but proven players, these players would also want to come to a CL club.
Once this happens Moyes can progress the club further and then there would be a bigger possibility of winning the league. Success will then breed more success, by this time SAF and Harry Redknapp will have retired Dalglish is also in his 60?s and so wont be in the game too long. It will then be Moyes?s time and Evertons time.
Unfortunately we are all going to have to wait unless a Man City type take over happens which would speed up the whole process. But that is football, it runs in cycles Man Utd brought through a golden generation of Internationals but they along with SAF will not be at Man U in 2 or 3 years time, G Neville and Schoales the lastest to quit the game. Ferguson spoke about it himself in saying that Barcelonas cycle and golden generation is just beginning. Hopefully we have a golden generation with Rodwell Coleman Baxter Barkley Bidwell, Hope etc coming through.
53 Posted 01/06/2011 at 16:53:03
What are these better qualifications that Poyet and Lambert have over Moyes?
54 Posted 01/06/2011 at 17:23:44
55 Posted 01/06/2011 at 19:07:06
Poyet - saves Brighton from relegation then promoted in first full season as a manager playing attractive attacking football in 1 year career.
Moyes . . . L1 title . . . erm erm erm. 13 years career.
56 Posted 01/06/2011 at 20:01:18
Are you being serious or are you taking the piss?
Do you really believe that judged on what you have written in your post 54 that we should get rid of David Moyes and bring in one of these two managers?
I would ask you If come this time next season and Paul Lambert's Norwich have finished in the relegation zone or in the bottom 5 or 6 in the league well below everton and Gus Poyet's Brighton have not pulled up any trees in their league will you still be talking these guys up?
My guess would be no.. I bet you will be looking at who has finished top of the Championship or League 1 that season and be putting their name forward.
It's just another couple of names to add to the list. It was Holloway and Di Matteo in the first half of the season, but surprisingly come the end of the season there does not seem to be any mention of these two anymore. I wonder why...
57 Posted 01/06/2011 at 20:16:38
58 Posted 01/06/2011 at 22:02:25
Having witnessed such a magnificent display of ALL the football arts totally overwhelm the Champion club of England, we are simply light years away from ever witnessing such individual and collective skills here at Everton while things remain as they are at the club.
When one witnesses such abilities on display, one can easily think that such standards are achieved simply by wishing it or the fact that they are "talented players". They are what they are because of the exacting standards and demands of technically gifted coaches and a long historical culture at the club.
Quite simply, at Everton and elsewhere, even in the so-called top teams, we see players getting away with murder in terms of technical development, application and quite frankly the mastering of the basics.
While it is wrong to single out players one has to use some individuals simply as exemplars: Tony Hibbert ? a professional of long standing who cannot pass the ball accurately or deliver a cross of any significance; Phil Neville, won countless honours, represented his country on numerous occasions and yet similarly cannot accurately pass a ball or cross a ball with any degree of consistency; Victor Anichebe, a member of the young brigade (some couple of years younger than Messi!), an appalling example of ineptitude at both the technical and application levels etc... one could go on.
The point is that, at the levels at which Barca are capable of playing, the players have WORKED at their craft and been MADE to do so in order to bring to fruition the skills that are there. Bandy about the names of current "flavour of the month" managers all you want but do we really think this will take Everton to the "next level" ? whatever that means?
I am 66 years of age and have seen all the great Everton sides of the past and a few of the dreadful ones! I remember seeing fleetingly the great Real sides of the late 50s and 60s and am reminded of the great Di Steffano's comments recently about Real being made to play like "mice" under the tutelage of the great Mourinho.
Barcelona's display has laid down a challenge to every Chairman, director, manager, player and supporter of football to do all they can to once again make football the "beautiful game" they so clearly showed it could be. At Everton the "next level" might well be to nurture and develop players who can excite and entertain and establish the team as a successful team within its own national competitions first of all. Ludicrous competitions such as the Europa League are simply a distraction and Champions League at this stage an illusion. As in everything first of all ? let's get the basics sorted!
The one great reservation I have about my admiration of the Barcelona performance is that it included that awful creature Mascherano ? which once again proves that NOTHING is perfect, not even at Barca!
59 Posted 01/06/2011 at 22:43:24
60 Posted 02/06/2011 at 00:29:46
I'm done with this thread, and I'm going to finish my contributions with a quote I heard from a Year 10 (15 years old) journalism student I was teaching. After telling the class a wrong hand-in date for an assignment and apologising for it, she said this:
"Sir, don't make excuses, just make improvements."
61 Posted 02/06/2011 at 00:53:23
It's not an excuse, look around Europe at the top leagues and it is always the same teams winning. The fat cats involved with Fifa and the Premier League do what the money clubs say so the teams at the top stay at the top.
62 Posted 02/06/2011 at 02:40:55
63 Posted 02/06/2011 at 10:42:54
64 Posted 02/06/2011 at 16:56:41
I love Moyes and he has certainly a lot with what he has been given because fans are complaining for finishing in the top 6 or 7!
Let's be honest... Moyes is by far a better manager we have had since the first Kendall and based on our performances against the teams above us, one has to admit we have a good team but they just seem to switch off against the 'weaker' sides.
65 Posted 05/06/2011 at 09:50:44
II wouldn't remotely like us to face barca in a friendly or in a champions league clash..roll of toilet roll needed
66 Posted 05/06/2011 at 09:53:51
Moyes is naive and tactically inept.
To suggest he is the best man for the Job is almost akin to saying that Mike Walker was our best ever manager.
Stupid comparison I know, but I simply don't agree with your assessment at all.
Everton where a big club before Moyes arrived, down on their luck...last season was a fucking joke from start to finish, almost like the season before.
Whats going to happen next season, when we fail to start the season at all? 2 season's running and we start our season later each year.
Inept because of the unbelievably stupid decisions he has made...inept because he even thought to play that clod Anichebe..but to give him first billing? 0.o the mind boggles
67 Posted 05/06/2011 at 11:43:59
It's been said many, many times. We are a slightly above average club that can play a bit sometimes but not very often.
Big club down on their luck??? We were relegation fodder.
68 Posted 06/06/2011 at 03:44:54
Who should replace David Moyes and you have to assume that person would also want to manage Everton.
My point is that given the amount of funds that Moyes has had to work with and the manner he handled the situation, I am just grateful to have some expectations every year.
Under anyone else in the past two decades it has always been down with the bottom feeders.
Of course, if the club can find another manager who can take us to the next level... then that's fine but I suspect Moyes is doing a lot more than what most fans would like to believe.
69 Posted 06/06/2011 at 03:55:47
I also question why clubs can buy the likes of VdV and Parker for a few bucks and yet we have to spend the amount we did for Maro and Billy...
So I am upset as well... especially the first three months of the season but then my missus would remind me that this always happen with Everton and we will end up fine.
Am I happy... yes/no but I am certainly happy to see a stable Everton compare to other clubs that look more like a circus.
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