Skip to Main Content
Members:   Log In Sign Up

5 years from relegation

By Phil Martin :  28/06/2011 :  Comments (71) :
Despite what the title might suggest I'm not just about to start doom-mongering. However, after reading an excellent article here yesterday detailing the collapse of River Plat, illustrating how bad management at an executive level can be catastrophic for a club, I felt the urge to put down my thoughts...

The cruel facts:

? Everton FC is burdened with record debt, asset-less, in a run-down stadium. All this despite our best run of league performances for a generation.
? Everton are tied into a 10-year merchandising deal which is currently on par with the likes of Fulham and doesn?t take into account inflation (what will £3M buy you in 2021?).
? There is a history of mis-communication (between board and fans), lies, untruths or whatever you call them surrounding Fortress Sports Fund, Kings Dock, Destination Kirkby, club ownership, etc.

The worry for all us Evertonians is ? How do we stop the rot? How does the club move forward and progress?

Those who believe the fans who criticise the board are deluded or living in the past are I believe clearly missing the point. But I genuinely feel we as a fanbase, are developing a 'small club' mentatlity.

Another Fact: Our current board either can?t or won?t invest any more money into the club. That?s their prerogative, but the real concern is that they appear to want a substantial return on their ?investment?. Kenwright clearly has little financial control over the club. He is indebted to Earl, Green (allegedly I have to add) and many banks. They call the shots ? not him. And for getting the club in that situation, he should be ashamed.

In my opinion, those in power either want an investor to come in, splash some cash on new players, and maybe pay for the expansion of the Park End. Believing this may lead to a mini-revival, a minor trophy win, but importantly (to them) increase the club?s reputation. The end result: a higher price (and higher demand) for shares in the club.

Alternatively, they simply want someone to offer them over the odds for the club in a full takeover.

Both scenarios are unlikely and so we stand still... Yes, we all know and accept we are no longer part of the English elite. We are now a second-rank club and yet, with just a little investment, things could be a whole lot different. Dare I dream of a time when EFC buys to strengthen and just not plug holes after a season starts? Yes, times are tough and other big clubs are struggling too. Yet some clubs have funded huge sprees before hitting hard times. We appear to be indefinitely impoverished.

We can?t just sell players to pay debts that grow. Yet this is the board?s only strategy and it?s a situation they have brought upon themselves. When we reached the Champions League Qualifying Round in 2004-05, the board should?ve been scouring the world for good investors. Capitalising on our surprise season and offering an opportunity to be a part of a club on the verge of joining the gravy train.

But what really gets me is why we can?t employ someone highly qualified and connected (and highly compensated)? Just like Liverpool did with Broughton to sell the club. You can protect the club against pirates by adding clauses so that a buyer would have to purchase the club with equity, and not a Glazer style reverse loan. You can add a clause that they commit to spending funds on new players. It?s exactly what Liverpool did, and next year they will leave us behind again.

It?s very simple: the current board has to move on, or alternatively we have 5 years to somehow get lucky. The long-term consequence of a lack of investment is relegation. That is a fact we should all agree on.

Reader Comments

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer

David O'Keefe
1   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:06:43

Report abuse

Not read the article yet, but just to re-assure everyone: five year plans are not always successful.
Steve Sweeney
2   Posted 28/06/2011 at 14:58:18

Report abuse

I think you are banging your head against a wall. There seems to be so many on here that can't see any wrong in what Billy Liar is doing. After all, he is one of us and is a supporter. They are quite happy to see our best players sold off so long as we finish in 7th place mediocrity.

"Bill is a true blue" ? they continually spout, "Who else is there?" is often used as an excuse ? no matter that he has destroyed the core of this once great club with his lies and deceit.

Maybe five years is a wee bit soon but, like you, I really believe that, so long as he is in charge, it will only be a matter of time. Unfortunately this is the worst position I have ever seen Everton FC in. Everton should be challenging for the title and all the domestic trophies, Everton should be competing in Europe every season. The reason that we aren't lies squarely at Blue Bill's door.

The DK fiasco was an exercise in self-gratification. Thank God that little bit of his foresight didn't come off. He should be forced out... if he were the chairman across the park or 30 miles up the A580, he would have been hounded out by now.

Evertonians, we will eventually implode and YOU will have allowed it to happen.

Steve Sweeney
3   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:18:10

Report abuse

Phil, See what I mean? (Post #1)
Stephen Leary
4   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:06:46

Report abuse

I think we will go down before that if things don't change. An ageing squad, players like Cahill, Saha, Fellaini, Arteta picking up regular injuries now, and with no money to replace the members of the squad who have already left i really am genuinely worried.

My only solutuion is Kenwright and his muppets start to properly look into selling the club, not telling us they are when they clearly are not; until this happens the likes of Rodwell and Felliani, Jags and Arteta may have to be sold, with Moyes replacing them with young players from the Championship and around Europe with a potential good sell-on value... We will continue this process until we have new owners, and in the process hope to continue to stay in the Premier League.

This has to be the first season since the 00-01 season were I have felt no hope and a lack of excitement about the club and a real worry as to where we are going. We should easily be able to attract a silly man like City did willing to throw their money away... I know, "the stadium" etc etc.. but our debts are not as bad as some clubs that have been taken over, eg, Chelsea, City, Roma, Malaga, the Shite.

We are Everton FC ? a proud institution that should always be competing at the top table for the top prizes; we just need a little bit of help now to get back there... we have the fans and the stature to return as a force. We are a sleeping giant and unfortunately a giant that has been asleep way too long now.

Sell up, Kenwright, or make a stand yourself by resigning as chairman and that will make it clear it's the other directors who aren't selling their shares. If you were a proper fan like all of us here, you would try to make a stand by doing this and help us fans get our club back on its feet. We need help, we need our optimisim, our hope back. I will always be Everton till I die. COYB!!!!
David O'Keefe
5   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:21:54

Report abuse

Steve: I wasn't being entirely serious, but no-one can predict the future. Bill and Co may sell the club next week, for example ? thus making this article look rather silly.

It looks sensible at the moment though, but if Bill sells......
Gavin Ramejkis
6   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:21:58

Report abuse

Amazed we have not had the usual suspects screaming from the rafters that you should be ashamed of questioning how the club is ran, or the incredulous demand to name your replacement, again missing the point that you are neither a major shareholder nor current incumbent on the board of directors.

Apathy amongst the fans is as big a disgrace as the board of directors and their slow destruction of Everton as a business and football club.
Anthony Jones
7   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:26:02

Report abuse

Good article, Phil.
Steve Cotton
8   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:38:38

Report abuse

Some relatively big clubs have been allowed to fall out of a division and most never get back to the same level: Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton, Notts Forest, West Ham... if this apathy lets our club become a club with no ambition then our grandkids will be supporting the Mancs or the other lot cos we won't be there.

Funnily enough, there is still time to act, the rot is only a foot deep...

Steve Sweeney
9   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:43:22

Report abuse

Gavin ? Great summation.
Erik Dols
10   Posted 28/06/2011 at 15:54:51

Report abuse

I think the club could do a lot better but I really don't buy into this 'no change means relegation' thing. No change means we'll finish anywhere between 4th and 14th the coming seasons.
Kunal Desai
11   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:01:53

Report abuse

Erik - 4th?? Don't think so somehow. Are you telling me our playing squad is better than Shittee, the Sshite, Spurs and Arsenal? I think not. 7th and 17th is more like it.
David Crowe
12   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:17:09

Report abuse

We were dead certs to go down in one season in 04-05 and ended up finishing fourth. I'm not saying it's impossible for us to go down but suggest to any fan of any club in the premier league and they would reassure you that there is virtually no chance of us getting relegated in 5 years.

No, we're not making strides into the top 4 but we're never going to go down under Moyes without administration in my eyes. Hell, we've been on a relegation budget since he got here. It's not impossible but then again it's not going to happen.
David Holroyd
13   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:19:55

Report abuse

How are season tickets selling? That will be a good barometer as how we the fans are feeling for next season. Anywhere between 8th and 16th is where we will finish.
Dave Lynch
14   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:19:57

Report abuse

What Kunal said.

One of these seasons, we are not going to get as lucky as we have. Teams coming up are readily outspending us and mid-table teams are strengthening while we stand still.

Our squad is ageing, we sell off our best young talent and have no resources to revitalise the squad. A bad run of injuries in this squad, which for the better part is already full of injury prone players, Cahill, Saha, Fellaini.....will see us struggle and if Moyes sees his arse and leaves then I dread what will happen.

I'm no fan of Moyes, by the way, but can see we will not be relegated whilst he is with us.

Phil Martin
15   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:21:13

Report abuse

David #5,

If the board sells up next week, I will look very stupid indeed. In fact, if that happens, I'll get a tattoo of Bill, Earl and Green across my arse cheeks. I think, though, after 10 years of little to no investment, my arse is safe.


I agree "no change" doesn't always mean relegation. But how long can a club sell it's best players one by one without replacing them? We can't rely on Moyes picking up cheap, undiscovered diamonds from lower leagues every year. Especially since he can't actually spend anything now. The bulk of our squad was put together between 4-6 years ago. How many key players have we signed in the last 2-3 years?

I posted an article 3 years ago saying we were at a crossroads. We either invested more to contiune our resurgence or risk slipping back down the greasy pole of Premier League also rans. I emplored the board to back Moyes and do everything they could to provide funds.
What we've had every summer since is nothing. Aside from a few loan deals after the season started.

That over the long term is clearly a recipe for relegation.
Gavin Ramejkis
16   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:29:35

Report abuse

Erik, I think the point for me is how sustainable is this asset utilisation before relegation... and what then? If the club falls out of the Premier League, it's income drops even more, making player retention nigh-on impossible. The downward spiral is in motion; unless it is changed, it is merely a matter of time.
Jay Harris
17   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:16:35

Report abuse

We are lucky that the likes of Neville, Cahill, Hibbert, Jags and Osman have so much passion for the club but, as these players age and get disillusioned with yet another year of no investment, no direction and no plan from the boardroom as ALL other clubs make some sort of investment, you are right in predicting a downward spiral.

Although I would hate it to happen, it would take relegation to make some supporters turn on Bill and his cronies but there again it will probably be KEIOC's or ToffeeWeb's fault.

I expect the top 6 to put some more space between them and us next season and for Villa and Sunderland to go above us with Newcastle, West Brom and Fulham all jockeying with us for a top 10 place.

Bill Kenwright is an absolute disgrace to EFC and needs to look at what he has done these last 10 years and hang his head in shame... but I don't hold out any hopes.
Ryan Holroyd
18   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:27:26

Report abuse

Everton is not for sale. This was stated in the Kirkby documents. What Kenwright wants is someone to give him x amount of pounds without any say in how the club is run.

He is a lying, deceitful man who is only in Everton what the fat horrible twat can get out of it.

Everton won't get relegated whilst Moyes is in charge, IMO. When/if he leaves, we are fucked.

Kenwright is a shithouse who has been a disaster for Everton Football Club.
Luke Dunn
19   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:36:22

Report abuse

Talk about the voice of doom... our squad is not that bad and we will always attract players who are good enough to prevent us from relegation.

We looked more likely to drop when we had Ferguson, Barmby, Collins, Dacourt et al. We may not win another Championship but we will be ok as long as there are always 3 worse teams than us.

This year it will be Norwich, Swansea, QPR, Fulham, and Newcastle... so that's us safe. Stop scare-mongering!
David O'Keefe
20   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:41:36

Report abuse

"If the board sells up next week. I will look very stupid indeed. In fact, if that happens I'll get a tattoo of Bill, Earl and Green across my arse cheeks. I think though after 10 years of little to no investment ? my arse is safe."

Is that a promise?
Steve Sweeney
21   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:53:38

Report abuse

Just read a deal for Yobo is imminent: #BK "A deal can be done in the next few days. There are no other bids".

Great bit of negotiation there, Bill. Why not tell them to pay the £6m agreed or he comes back as cover? Nah you need the £3m.... You Tosser. God if he only had a business brain.

Phil Martin
22   Posted 28/06/2011 at 16:50:30

Report abuse

David Crowe #12 ? "there is virtually no chance of us getting relegated in 5 years." ? That's some statement.

"We were dead certs to go down in one season in 04-05 and ended up finishing fourth." ? We had our moment then and the board blew it by not finding adequate funds for backing Moyes that summer. We finished 11th in 2005 remember?

"We've been on a relegation budget since he got here." ? Not quite. We've gone from 'sell before you buy' to 'sell and receive half the funds to invest'... to 'sell to pay off the debts'.

Why is Moyes being a safety net from relegation an excuse for Board-level incompetence?

David #20 ? Yes, and I think it's the safest bet I've ever made.
David Crowe
23   Posted 28/06/2011 at 17:20:33

Report abuse

Phil Martin 22

"That's some statement." ? For a side that's finished in the top 8 in its last 5 YEARS, that's not a statement at all. How negative can you be?

"Not quite etc..." ? A net spend of £3-4m (for the whole of Moyes's reign) is a relegation budget, I'm afraid.
Sam Hoare
24   Posted 28/06/2011 at 18:08:58

Report abuse

Phil, your article is well written and reasoned for the most. However, the title and conclusion is plain laughable.

We were in far more trouble when Moyes arrived than we are now and yet in 10 years have moved up the table... so, given that nothing has changed, what is to suggest that we are about to suddenly plummet down the table??!!

I agree that lack of investment and poor management at board level is extremely unhealthy but to suggest that, if nothing changes, we will undeniably be going down is just plain negative doom-mongering, despite your opening line.
William Dinsdale
25   Posted 28/06/2011 at 18:00:50

Report abuse

Our problem started when we got into the Champions League; Dave Moyes and the fans went forward but the board stood still. They are not showing any forward thinking or planing even now. Loan players even last January would have taken us up the league.

Moyes has turned Everton round... from the junior teams to the first team. This lack of drive from the board is being felt by some players ? this is why they want to leave. I have followed Everton since Tommy Lawton played for them and will always support them.

Brian Waring
26   Posted 28/06/2011 at 18:16:25

Report abuse

Sam, how is it just plain negative doom-mongering?

We have an ageing team, haven't got a pot to piss in, may have to sell some of the family jewels to service our debts. A board who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery!
Phil Martin
27   Posted 28/06/2011 at 17:34:46

Report abuse

David Crowe and Sam Hoare,

You didn't answer the most important question:

Why is Moyes being a safety net from relegation, an excuse to abide Board-level incompetence?

A net spend of £0M over the last 2-3 years is a relegation budget. A net yearly spend of £3-4M is a relative luxury ? now a distant memory.

How negative can I be? I could turn that around and ask "How deluded are you?"

Complacency is dangerous. Being content with a policy of selling our best players and not replacing them, is to invite trouble.

Or are you both seriously suggesting this is a credible strategy for taking our club forward?

Finally, why can't the board appoint someone specificaly tasked with finding investment?
Colin Taylor
28   Posted 28/06/2011 at 19:10:30

Report abuse

Think back to before Moyes and Kenwright and remember Smith and agent Johnson taking us to the brink of relegation, buying has-beens like Ginola and Gascoigne. We all want Everton to be at the top.

I am fortunate enough to remember the mid-eighties so I don't have a small club mentallity. Look at the bigger picture, the Champions League has ruined football since UEFA changed the format from just Champions qualifying. This had a knock-on effect to the old UEFA Cup and the FA Cup being less important.

When we were top of the tree, prize money was not an issue it was all about trophies but it is sad now that a team would rather finish 4th than win a cup. I would rather have my Everton with no money than be like Shitteh or Chelsea with a load of mercenaries kissing the badge. So carry on, Kenwright ? you will always have my support of what is a proper football club.

There are some good young kids coming through the academy and the new finance rule from UEFA will help us too. Football works in cycles; our time will come again... I bet when Abramovich walks away from Chelsea, they will slide away... United will when SAF calls it a day... City will die when the sheik fucks off... Spurs will go under with Harry spend alot Redknapp and Liverpool are shit anyway with Kenny Dogmuck at the helm.

The only team who are close to what we are is Arsenal, so come on, fellow Evertonians ? be proud of our club and let's get behind the club and stop fucking moaning, thank you! I feel better now...

David Crowe
29   Posted 28/06/2011 at 19:37:44

Report abuse

Phil 27

I'll answer that question: It isn't. And also, no-one here has said that, said anything remotely like it, nor would they dream of it... so I have no idea where that came from.

I'll argue that I am not deluded, thank you very much, and I don't think it's complacent to believe that it's extremely unlikely that we could go from being a consistent top 8 finishing team, with quite a few over-£20m assets (Fellaini, Baines and possibly Rodwell) and a top manager, to becoming a Championship side in a mere five years. This is negative in the extreme. Are you saying that we are going the same way as Leeds and Portsmouth? I can assure you if there is a way we are going, it's not that way.

You said the net spend is a yearly £3-4m. I have actually heard that that figure is the net spend in TOTAL in the whole ten years Moyes has been here.

As Sam says, the title is laughable, we are sitting on a group of real saleable and valuable assets at this moment in time. Some of them haven't even been here for the past year (Yak, Yobo, Vaughan who has been sold, could yield over £8m) plus Bily, Rodwell and Victor could be sold at little real loss. If we really need money, we can get it without breaking the bank or selling important players (Rodwell, at present, is NOT an important player). If anything, this summer shows some, if limited, promise of improvement and some money to spend (better than last year).

I'm not promoting the sell-to-buy policy but, when you've got the amount of shite we have in the squad at the moment and can get money for it, we've got no money, so why not?

My point is, we're definitely not in a crisis AT PRESENT and improvement could be on the immediate horizon as easily as further decline (with shrewd use of transfer funds generated by the above sales). Any decline we do suffer in the next 5 years, however, will NOT lead to relegation. Sorry to tempt fate but, at present and in 5 years, I believe the squad and manager combined is and will be too good to go down.

Finally, the way the club is being run is not how I or anyone wants it to be run. We can't sell-to-buy forever so eventually investment will be needed; the sooner, the better.
Marc Williams
30   Posted 28/06/2011 at 20:10:56

Report abuse

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Southern Cross on here.

For those that don't know, Southern Cross Healthcare are a care home operator in the UK . They are also one of the biggest financial stories around at the moment as their demise, due to a failed 'business model' is both shameful & shocking.

Well... I hear you all ask, what has this to do with Everton Football Club?

Not much at first glance except in one BIG regard... It's a very similar 'business model' to that which Kenwright has used since he took over this club !

The selling off of assets etc to raise working capital then renting back. Outsourcing key business functions on contracts that are ok 'short term'... (Well, needs must... eh?) but in the long term are very poor deals.

He was even doing this very recently with the fishy Everton Plaice deal to build new facilities on the car park & 'pic-nic' tent area by the Park End (sorry but it's a joke to call them corporate facilities!) Luckily though, they've managed to screw this up by all accounts.

I'd urge you all to look at what happened to Southern Cross. There's loads of coverage in the serious & financial media etc. Then take a look at some of the asset selling, outsourcing & rent back deals this boardroom 'cabal' have signed the club up too.

But hey, did you know Bill is Blue... so I guess that makes it alright then eh!
Trevor Lynes
31   Posted 28/06/2011 at 21:22:16

Report abuse

I totally agree with Gavin; if the club are courting apathy... then that's what they will get from the fans.

The EFC official site is a joke and is filled with trivia and little else.

Sam Hoare
32   Posted 28/06/2011 at 22:17:14

Report abuse

Brian and Phil.

I don't disagree with lots of the sentiment in this piece. I don't think laurels should be rested on and in no way did my answer excuse the board.

But to suggest that we are destined for doom is...guess what...doom-mongering.

I am not saying that things are going well or that we are moving forward. There are, as always, issues that need to be addressed.

I also don't think its deluded to say that at current we are a comfortable top 10 side. Its fairly factual.

So lets not start prophesising the end of the world just because there are some bush fires!!
Ciarán McGlone
33   Posted 28/06/2011 at 22:26:19

Report abuse

If I thought that relegation would remove our useless parasitic board and result in some of the Evertonians on this thread taking their heads out of their small-time arses, I'd happily take two or three years of misery.
Anthony Jones
34   Posted 28/06/2011 at 22:53:33

Report abuse

My questions for the better informed contributors:

Is it possible for fans to oust the board without undermining the club?

If it is, how is this achievable?

Who holds enough sway to lead fans if mass protests are required?
Ste Traverse
35   Posted 29/06/2011 at 01:20:49

Report abuse

Colin Taylor.

Please get your facts right. Ginola and Gascoinge were not acquired under Peter Johnson, they were brought in while Kenwright was running the gaff. Gazza in August 2000 and Ginola in February 2002. PJ had long since left the club when these two pitched up at Goodison.
Dennis Stevens
36   Posted 29/06/2011 at 01:13:34

Report abuse

Good questions, Anthony. I'll add another couple if you don't mind: Is it possible for the current Board to remain in place without undermining the club (further!)?

Are supporters happy for the club to tread water indefinitely, at best & assuming Moyes can maintain mid-table mediocrity on a pittance, until the Board are able to attempt yet another ground move?

NB ? be prepared for the proposal to be for an inadequate design tied to a retail development, as per DK, and for EFC to be left in even greater financial peril should it come to fruition.

Roman Sidey
37   Posted 29/06/2011 at 03:04:39

Report abuse

This board isn't going to do much to solve the current problems we face. The only way we can get quick relief is to finish in the top 4. In all seriousness, with this squad, all we need is to play like we have in the second halves of the last two seasons for a whole season, which we can do.

I really believe that this coming season is highly dependent on Beckford coming into his own. If he can bury half of the number of chances that he had last year, he'll be a top goal scorer, and give us that extra push for wins instead of draws.

Sometimes in football, the club needs the team to do the hard work on the field before the pencil pushers upstairs will achieve anything.
Richard Parker
38   Posted 29/06/2011 at 08:38:06

Report abuse

I think the most anti-BK fan can admit that, between him and Moyes, they brought Everton back from the brink. We peaked in 2004 and steadied, barring 2005; now we're well and truly on a downward curve and it's only going to accelerate with our ageing squad and inadequate replacements.

The tipping point was when we had to sell AJ & Faddy to buy Fellaini. Since then, the only transfer activity of note was funded by the sale of Lescott. This was the moment that the board needed to step aside and let someone take over with the means to continue the upward curve we were on at that point.

If there isn't any change at board level, Everton will slowly die as a top-flight club. It's quite clear that this squad only has a couple more seasons in it and we must invest now in younger blood to keep a semblance of a top-half Premier League team.

No-one will invest in Everton, because there is no business plan, therefore there is no return on investment. The only possible course of action, in order to preserve our status as European contenders (just about), is for the board to go.
Phil Martin
39   Posted 29/06/2011 at 10:13:57

Report abuse

Sam Hoare,

We are currently a top 10 side: AGREED.

With the current strategy of selling key players and being unable to replace them in anyway, you think we can maintain our position for years to come: I DISAGREE.

How many key players have we added to our squad in the last 3 years? With a negative net spend for the foreseeable future, how on Earth will we maintain our position (7th best)?

How is it doom-mongering to suggest any club with an already stretched playing squad, which then stops investing in its playing squad, will begin a gradual decline? A decline which (in our case) started in 2009.
Gavin Ramejkis
40   Posted 29/06/2011 at 10:18:39

Report abuse

Richard, a slight misnomer in your reckoning in that I believe what you are getting at is that DM has achieved higher table results than his predecessors. Other than taking on board Walter Smith's suggestion to employ him as his successor, what exactly has BK had to do with the club's revival?

The DK hearings in black and white showed on oath that not one of the major shareholders has or in future will spend a single penny of their own money on the club beyond the shares they already hold. The Sky money would have come to any chairman in charge, even if it was a three-year-old baboon, and that formerly funded player purchases and wages. BK's poor chairmanship hasn't added any new funding whatsoever and the club now has record debts which are growing annually.

If you have to claim we aren't where we were before DM, please don't claim it's down to the shining stewardship of BK.

Richard Parker
41   Posted 29/06/2011 at 10:35:38

Report abuse

Gavin, not sure where you got the phrase 'shining stewardship of BK' from, but it certainly wasn't me.

The club has had record debts growing annually for the entire BK era and during Johnson's reign before him. That's also the case at virtually every other Premier League club as well... of course that's no excuse for Everton to be in this situation. The Sky money came to many a chairman whose club are now in the second and third tiers of English football. So to purely give the credit to the Sky money is a somewhat blinkered view.

I am in no way a fan of BK and do not see his management of Everton in a positive light. There have been some small positives, mainly in his facilitation of Moyes's management of the club up to a certain point.

It's a shame for Everton and for BK that he didn't take over the club from Johnson and then move on in 2006 or so. If he had handed over control of Everton at that point, rightly or wrongly, I think he would be held in a very high regard by most Everton fans. Sadly, he's tried to keep control, but control is evidently something seriously lacking in the upper management of the club.
Sam Hoare
42   Posted 29/06/2011 at 11:49:58

Report abuse


I do understand your point and I do agree its not healthy, but isn't this the way we have been operating for a while now? With little or no net spend? And yet we have risen up the table not fallen.

I do of course see that it's is a dangerous situation to be in, and potentially dangerous... but to say relegation is the certain outcome is to overblow the situation. Many other clubs, Udinese being a great example, operate very successfully in this way.
Phil Martin
43   Posted 29/06/2011 at 12:02:57

Report abuse

Richard #41,

Agreed. I feel the perfect time to have stepped aside, or at least found major investment, was when we finished 4th ? 6 years ago. The profile of the club was enhanced and the lure of potential Champions League revenues would've been strong for a lot of investors. However, Bill and Co were too busy crying on TV and splashing champagne to look at the bigger picture.

Sam Hoare #42, I take your point. But Udinese had a great season this year but only finished 15th in 2010. So they aren't really an example of a club who is consistently selling their best, not replacing those, yet still progressing over the long term.

You may feel the fear of relegation is OTT. However, what happens if Jags, Arteta and Beckford all pickup bad injuries next year (similar to 2008-09 season)? Do you still think we'd finish top 10? How many points away from a relegation battle would EFC need to be for you to consider them comfortable? How many seasons can we rely on a second-half rally to drag us up the table? What if one season we couldn't turn our season around in Jan and left it too late?
Anthony Jones
44   Posted 29/06/2011 at 11:56:03

Report abuse

Sam, based on what I've read from other contributors, there is a key point that should never be forgotten in these debates. It is that we are running out of options for servicing the debt.

Everton have sold off assets and outsourced core revenue streams for short-term monetary gain. As far as I can tell, there are few assets left to sell bar the players.

If we become dependent on major player sales to remain a going concern, eventually our luck will run out and we will not be able to sell players of enough value, or Moyes will just up and leave.

Udinese are not Everton, and even then there is no telling where they will be in ten years time.

This Udinese stuff really needs challenging. I have read a number of posts that state that we simply need to operate the way that they do and everything will be fine. Utter nonsense. EVERY club has scouting networks. EVERY club has a youth set up. You are effetively saying that we can leave it all to chance and fate will see us good.

I don't believe that the board is taking inappropriate risks in the current context. I don't believe that they wanted their schemes to fail. Unfortunately, their approach to debt management is either naive or grossly incompetent. It is not doom-mongering to point this out.

The bare minimum we need now is an owner with the capacity to issue interest free loans to reduce the debt burden. If the club is not for sale, which others have stated became apparent during the DK enquiry, then fans have no option but reject the board.
Peter Laing
45   Posted 29/06/2011 at 13:00:58

Report abuse

Same shit, different Summer. Moyes it would appear remains hamstrung in his attempts to do any business in the transfer market. For the first time in many a season I done what I felt was right and exercised my right not to renew my season ticket. Next season I will pick and choose my games depending on form. Will I be missed?Probably not; whilst Kenwright is in charge, the Club will continue to decline ad infinitum.
Dan Parker
46   Posted 29/06/2011 at 14:15:45

Report abuse

The whole league needs to stop the rot, not Everton alone. The Premier League model is unsustainable in its current form. We're doing a lot better than most at the moment. Ironically supporters of other clubs think our model is possibly one of the better ones.

Another problem is we look at investment as though the investor is an Everton fan giving too much value to our love of the club. Massive debt, massive wages, old stadium, rubbish transport links, it doesn't strike me that your savvy businessman would get a decent return on that..... Only so many oil sheikhs out there.
Anthony Jones
47   Posted 29/06/2011 at 14:32:37

Report abuse

Dan, what is "our model"?

The fans of other clubs are told by the media that Everton live within their means. On the face of it, who could argue with that? What they aren't told is that Everton have sold off assets and outsourced revenue streams in order to do this.

You are right that investors won't touch Everton with a barge pole, yet this is what the board are after. Therefore, the board are living in fantasy land.

If they don't sell up, by setting a reasonable price (pretty low I would guess given that they have sold off so many tangible assets), to a concern that has the funds and desire to make Everton sustainable in the long-term, then we will simply be unable to compete, and relegation will be a certainty within the short-term.

The board need to set a price that allows them to break even. Nobody could criticise them for wanting to do that. They are living in the past thinking that goodwill is enough to run a football club, just as I was until yesterday!
Dan Brierley
48   Posted 29/06/2011 at 14:33:27

Report abuse

Guys, for fuck's sake, it's summer time. Turn off your Radiohead albums, put the lid back on the Gin and get outside and enjoy a bit of life. Everton are not going to disintegrate in 5 years, just like it hasn't this year, regardless of all the doom mongers saying on this exact same website: 'mark my words, the end is nigh' in 2006.

The expectation that we deserve to be competing at the top when we have never even won the League Cup, nevermind been in the Champions League, is incredible. Where has this god-given right come from? Because our motto says so? Because we won the Cup-Winners Cup once?

We have the highest value squad the club has EVER had, yet people are saying we have sold off all our assets?!! It's unbelievable stuff....

Dan Brierley
49   Posted 29/06/2011 at 14:56:26

Report abuse

Anthony 47#,

Could you please list all these 'valuable' assets that have been sold off by the current regime, with the money swallowed up into the black hole and not re-invested into ... er...assets (i.e. players)? Or is it a good thing for a football club to have money sitting outside the club, but Scott Gemmil and Pembridge in your first team?

And which revenue streams that were making good money have been outsourced exactly?
Anthony Jones
50   Posted 29/06/2011 at 15:06:57

Report abuse

#48, believe me, mate, I'd love to be out in the sunshine but I am trying to make money, like most people, whilst I'm not procrastinating reading these messages.

You are confusing the issue. I can't speak for others but I am not deluded. I don't expect a cup or a Champions League, because we are eons behind the top clubs now.

We have sold off many assets to fund players. So now we have LESS avenues for revenue than ever before.

The thing is, we need players to play football. You know, that thing that allows us to be a football club. So selling them is not a long-term strategy for solvency.

I have to ask, if you are so much better than the doom-mongers why are you even reading articles like this one? Alcoholism often develops in people who are afraid to admit the truth.
Phil Martin
51   Posted 29/06/2011 at 16:06:19

Report abuse

Dan Brierley,

"The expectation that we deserve to be competing at the top when we have never even won the League Cup, nevermind been in the Champions League, is incredible. Where has this god-given right come from?" ? This is a common idea the ostriches among us have. That somehow criticising our Board's commercial plans and business viability is somehow because we think Everton should win the Champions League every year. I'd just settle for a steady year-on-year improvement and a decent cup run. Fucking Unbelievable, Dan.

"And which revenue streams that were making good money have been outsourced exactly?" ? How about our merchandising stream (Kitbag - did you read my opening post)? What about our corporate revenues (part of the now postponed Park End development)? Our matchday catering? All totally outsourced.

"Could you please list all these 'valuable' assets that have been sold off by the current regime, with the money swallowed up into the black hole" ? Are you suggesting that Moyes recieves ALL the funds from every player he sells? Can you remember as far back as January 2011? Do you remember a certain player of the year called Pienaar? Can you recall the £3M we got from Spurs? Can you tell me where the fuck that's gone?

Dan, take your head out of Football Manager mode. The board has to take immediate action to prevent a further slide into mediocrity. Although your post #49 suggests EFC has always been just that anyway.
Dan Parker
52   Posted 29/06/2011 at 16:50:49

Report abuse

Anthony, our model is somewhere in-between monumental levels of debt covered by a billionaire vs massive levels of debt bordering on bankruptcy. A middle-of-the-run Premier League club ? as our league position suggests.
Gavin Ramejkis
53   Posted 29/06/2011 at 21:01:30

Report abuse

Richard, it was in response to your "I think the most anti-BK fan can admit that between him and Moyes, they brought Everton back from the brink." And I stand by my view that BK had fuck all to do with it. Apologies if you think I was painting you as pro-BK but that bit grinded my gears.

Dan Brierley ? as Phil has responded, I find it incredulous that anyone would not realise the items you questioned:

Every revenue stream was outsourced as a short-term capital cost reduction exercise for annual returns ? if a revenue stream is failing and you outsource it then it obviously isn't viewed as one that could never see profit and is being mismanaged or poorly ran; why not sack those in charge of it and employ better people or simply revamp and restructure it? Not rocket science and not something new to businesses.

As far as asset utilisation goes, I'll let you tell us all how many mortgages there are right now on Goodison Park? I'll ask you where the money from the sale of Bellefield is right now? I'll ask you who owns Finch Farm? I'll ask you to name Everton's 25-man squad for the forthcoming season and how many of those have played in the Premier League? I'll ask you to tell us all what assets Everton Football Club actually own today, right now?
Martin Handley
54   Posted 29/06/2011 at 22:32:46

Report abuse

As I've posted before, my view is that, unless we sell our major assets, Fellaini, Rodwell, Baines, Jags, Howard and Coleman in today's market their combined value is somewhere in the £60-80 million bracket (you make up your own individual valuations; my realistic valuations are: Rodwell £20M, Fellaini £25M, Baines £15-20M, Jags £15M, Howard £8M, Coleman £5M now ? if he continues to prosper, £10M+... Then let's see how much Moyes gets. My guess would be £10-15M if he's lucky... then we'll really now the true extent of the hole we're in.

My own view is that we're about 12-18 months away from administration; then we'd lose all our best players anyways, so why not sell them now? Would we be relegated without them? No! but only just because the first team would probably line up like this:

Mucha, Neville, Distin, Heitinga, Hibbert, Gueye, Osman, Cahill, Arteta, Saha, Beckford.
Subs: Turner, Duffy, Mustafi, Barkley, Forshaw, Vellios, Silva.

Our wage bill would be slashed by 70%, Kenwright and the other tossers would be gone and maybe just maybe someone would then be able to buy us as they would be dealing with the administrators. Drastic, yes... but how far from the truth?

Why no relegation? because as posted before there are at least 5 teams that are worse than us, even with our main assets gone!

Why the doom and gloom? Because at the moment we can't even bring in loans or freebies because we can't afford the extra wages! If some can prove me wrong please do!

Rob Jones
55   Posted 29/06/2011 at 23:26:56

Report abuse

Martin (54) - "my realistic valuations are...." ? in a word, unrealistic. We are in the silly season of rumours galore but you may not have noticed that players have already moved for big money ? Henderson, Young etc ? We don't rate them but no-one is going to pay more for Rodwell or Fella. I reckon we would get about half of each of your estimates.
Michael Kenrick
56   Posted 29/06/2011 at 23:29:32

Report abuse

#54 pulls an astounding and completely unfounded projection out of his arse, viz:

"We're about 12-18 months away from administration; then we'd lose all our best players anyways, so why not sell them now?". Then challenges the world to prove him wrong!

What rot. First off, YOU need to prove why EFC will go into Administration in 12 - 18 months. The club's much-maligned "business model" (I use the term loosely...) appears if anything to be ensuring against just that by avoiding the profligate spending that most fans are crying out for.

As for the patently ridiculous notion of selling off all our best players... More total rot. Moyes would never in a million years.

And the notion that Kenwright would be gone ? he is showing no sign of going anywhere! A little realism, please!

ps: Do try to keep up ? Iain Turner has been released!

Gavin Ramejkis
57   Posted 30/06/2011 at 02:24:07

Report abuse

Michael, DM doesn't buy and sell the players ? BK does; he might not be happy about it but his full backing of BK and his £65k a week suggest he'd probably keep quiet, even if players were sold beneath him.
Dan Brierley
58   Posted 30/06/2011 at 08:58:22

Report abuse

Phil 51#,

You would settle for year-on-year improvement? And what exactly have you seen under the current stewardship since they took over? Am I wrong to mention the fact we used to be perennial relegation candidates?

I am fortunate enough to be exposed to globalisation and 'make or buy' dealings in my current employment so I am comfortable with what Everton have done with regards to their outsourcing policy. Catering is not something that has anything to do with our core business (football) so it is natural we are not going to be experts in that field. Outsourcing it to a business that lives and breathes catering is a GOOD business move, and something that is perfectly normal in today's business footprint.

The exact same applies to the Kitbag deal. Another area that was failing due to lack of expertise and knowledge in that field, so it's a no-brainer to outsource to the UK's leading footballwear supplier. We now have two shops and have seen an increase in commercial sales since the deal was done. How you are hailing this as bad management, is beyond me.

We are a football club, not a logisitics and warehouse management operation. The statement about our merchandising deal being 'on par with the likes of Fulham' seems to be more fabrication. I challenge you to state your source for this.

Gavin #53 ? stop being silly. Of course I can't answer those questions. My challenge still remains, I would like making the 'sold all our asset' cries to state what exactly has been sold, and why it would have made more commerical sense to keep. Why do I want to know this? Because I believe this 'sold all our assets' shouting is yet more examples of how some on this site make throwaway statements with no substance, just because other people who are anti-BK have said it. Bandwagon springs to mind... 'Selling our assets' and 'outsourcing revenue streams' is the new '24/7 and 'the Kirkby report said we are not for sale'....

I am more than happy to debate logic, that's what this site is for (as well as the occasional mindless slander ;-). But each time a challenge is put in, it seems to go very quiet or the references that come out are "News of the World, my mate who spoke with Kenwright's postman and the groundsman's sausage maker".

The fact is, I am pissed off as any of you regarding Everton's financial plight. Those of you stupid enough to believe that any of us are happy with it need to have a word with yourselves. The reason my view differs, is because I believe the mess we are in comes from the playing field we are on (ie,, The FA). Everton are not isolated in their financial predicament; there are others far worse off. Which tells me we are not as mismanaged as people try to make out.

Richard Parker
59   Posted 30/06/2011 at 10:23:32

Report abuse

I think it's a fair bet that we're going to have to let one of our playing assets go this summer. We have plenty of numbers in the middle of midfield, no wide men worthy of the name and no good strikers.

It stands to reason that we let someone go in central midfield, where we have Arteta, Fella, Cahill, Rodders, Ossie, Pip, Heitinga and potentially (and I cringe while I say this) Bily who can play there. As we're also struggling for numbers it stands to reason that we need to sell one or two big assets and bring in several players in their place(s). We only really have 3 central midfield players who fit the big asset tag ? Arteta, Fellaini and Rodwell.

I don't see an alternative at the moment.
Gavin Ramejkis
60   Posted 30/06/2011 at 10:51:54

Report abuse

Dan, as the blinkers appear to have stopped you seeing the obvious, assets sold:

? Goodison Park has at least 14 mortgages on it;

? Bellefield sold and money went straight to pay some of the growing debts BK has incurred running the club;

? Finch Farm isn't owned by the club, it is leased;

The ONLY thing ? note to oneself, Dan, as you've missed it despite being told more than once in this thread ? the ONLY thing the club own are the players' contracts. We have a first team squad with many members of it now that haven't even kicked a ball in a Premier League match but don't let this sound like pointing out the obvious only to be asked again what assets have been sold off...

If you know of any other assets the club actually owns, Dan, please tell BK as he'd surely love to hock them off to pay our next installment of £4m per year debt servicing. The commercial sense of running services internally means a percentage of that service isn't going to the third party company. The blinkered view that the core business of Everton Football Club is playing football... well, how do you cater for the supporters attending the match wanting to eat and drink?

How do you cater for selling them merchandise? Neither of these are core businesses by your definition so they should be ignored? If you think about any aspect and how to run it, you simply employ staff from a catering background or marketing background or any other background pertinent to that workstream ? like every other business does.

In terms of the merchandising deal specifically, I can say that I can walk into numerous sports shops and see lots of other teams replica kits but not Everton's ? surely missed sales opportunities?

Phil Martin
61   Posted 30/06/2011 at 10:51:48

Report abuse

Dan #58,

Re the Kitbag deal. Do you know anything about the composition of this deal? I'll repeat from my opening post:

"Everton are tied into a 10-year (£3M per year) merchandising deal which is currently on par with the likes of Fulham but doesn?t take into account inflation (what will £3M buy you in 2021?)."

I'm sorry but how hard is it to employ a experienced store manager and open up a shop? Does this require outsourcing at such a huge cost to our revenues?

The examples of catering and corporate revenues are just other examples that you asked for.

Deary me, yes of course we've not been relegation fodder for 6 years. But that is little to do with board. This was achieved despite the board, not because of them. Let me put it another way: 3 years ago we were the biggest challenger to the top 4 and probably only 2-3 class players from being well among them. We're now 5-6 players away. So that in anyone's books is regression and not progression.

If our board were truly interested in selling up, they would appoint someone à la Broughton to focus on that. But, because they aren't, Moyes has to sell our prize assets and replace them with thin air.

Perhaps you feel that is a long-term strategy, but I beg to differ.
Anthony Jones
62   Posted 30/06/2011 at 10:55:05

Report abuse

Dan #58,

I always appreciate the perspective of people who know more than I do about a subject.

I am a fan of playing devil's advocate in order to learn (I am relatively pro-BK on the last thread). Thus, I backed down when you questioned my statement regarding outsourcing and asset stripping.

I am still rather frustrated, depsite my attempts to form a judgement about the board.

The problem is, this website is littered with fans that bundle issues regarding the board's honesty, business acumen, and agenda into one big pot, and it is very hard to keep them on topic (you know who they are). Moreover, fans seem to expect the board to be philanthropists, which I don't personally expect.

Worse still, as you have hit on, there is a lack of context all too often. How can someone attack the board in 2011 and use 1999 as a reference point when the fincanial pressures on clubs have changed so much?

Your point about outsourcing appears strong on the face of it, but I am still not convinced about the asset sales and re-mortgaging issue, which to me is the crux of the argument.

To put this to bed, someone who understands accounts should collate the information regarding Everton's assets and mortgages etc. since Kenwright became chairman, and, more importantly, should compare the strategy adopted by our board to the average strategy of Premier League clubs.

This will be a pain in the arse, and I'm not going to do it, partly because I don't think I can without quitting my job!

As a primer for discussion, I suggest you read Colin Fitzpatrick's article on this website that accuses the current board of various failings.

Regards the FA, I disgaree that it is their responsibility that so many big clubs a restruggling. The original Sky clubs agreed to the dividend structure of the Premier League, and it is down to them to work within it. Players and agents have bizarrely inflated salaries, which I guess is down to the pressure applied by the existence of mega-rich clubs. For me this is the biggest issue in football.

The bottom line is, I don't care whether other clubs are up the creek. I care if Everton are. If Everton have no plans for servicing their debt and from preventing it from spiralling out of control in the long term, then surely alarm bells should be ringing, and fans should be acting?

James Martin
63   Posted 30/06/2011 at 11:41:57

Report abuse

"Deary me, yes of course we've not been relegation fodder for 6 years. But that is little to do with board. This was achieved despite the board, not because of them." ? So the board didn't hire David Moyes? Didn't stick with him when he was on a bad run?? Didn't supply the funds for Finch Farm and transfers???

Yes, the board has made mistakes but this image of them doing their best to destroy the club and a messiah like Moyes (for the purpose of these sort of board bashing threads at least), guiding the team from relegation to Europe despite the board's best efforts, is ridculous.

Why can't people see Moyes and Kenwright are in this together for better or worse. They've both made a lot of mistakes and they've both done some good things (although even I'll admit Moyes has a few more ticks in his box).

"Yes, times are tough and other big clubs are struggling too. Yet some clubs have funded huge sprees before hitting hard times. We appear to be indefinitely impoverished." ? This is ridiculous, if the 'big clubs' are hitting hard times, why should we expect not to?These teams that have gone on massive sprees as you have pointed out have ? surprise, surprise ? hit hard times... and a lot harder than us: West Ham, Portsmouth, Aston Villa, as far back as Leeds, Newcastle even got relegated, as now have Birmingham. Would you want to swap positions with any of these teams that launched a 'spending spree'? Who gives one about Newcastle's massive ground when they've been a pile of crap for the majority of my living memory?

As a final point, all this reverence to Martin Broughton and the RS is sickening. That club was worth at least £800 million and everyone knew it. He basically sold a Ferrari for the same price as a Mondeo to the first punter who turned up with the cash. I'm surprised they haven't handed over the rest of the £500 million that they should have paid to Dogleash for a transfer kitty but no. Henry and his cronies bang on about buying youth for sell-on value, blah blah blah ? this sounds a lot like the cursed 'buy to sell' policy that everyone keeps banging on about (although if Henry can get a return above £20 million for Henderson, then maybe he is a genius). They sold Torres and reinvested that and will sell off other players such as Meireles to fund other moves. Henry is just an opportunist who saw a fire sale, is cleaning out the deadwood, setting it up with some potential assets, so that he can make a triple-your-money sale in a few years time.

Everyone knocks Kenwright ? and he does deserve a lot of stick ? but he's probably one of only a few football club owners who doesn't expect to make money from the club and enjoys this in a bizarre way.

David O'Keefe
64   Posted 30/06/2011 at 13:13:15

Report abuse

"I am a fan of playing devil's advocate in order to learn (I am relatively pro-BK on the last thread)."

Why not do some research instead? For gods sake you've done more U-turns than the coalition govt in the past few days.

Devils advocate? How about a low rent lazy and dishonest version of Roger Phillips. At least Roger knwos where he stands on certain issues.
Anthony Jones
65   Posted 30/06/2011 at 13:49:00

Report abuse

Sorrry to disapoint you David.

What's wrong? Did I rob you of your sesne of superiority?

You've just hit the nail on the head regards why these websites get a bad rep.

You don't want ot test ideas and actually develop discussion.

The problem is, it's not easy to research this kind of stuff, and as I admitted, I am not in finance or management.

You just want a great big pissing contest.

I'll indulge you anyway...

David, you couldn't be more wrong. You are a fool and your head couldn't be more buried in sand. Clowns like you are the reason this club will go under.

Is that better?
Anthony Jones
66   Posted 30/06/2011 at 13:56:51

Report abuse

I am impressed with your consistency though.

On the last thread you were a vicious little toad.

And you still are.
Michael Kenrick
67   Posted 30/06/2011 at 18:40:41

Report abuse

There's some really good questions in this thread: perhaps peaking with Anthony's #62 post. Then there are the the unfortunate and completely unwarranted interjections from David (#64)...

If I can summarize: The club is mismanaged, with mortgages and outscourcing being the prime examples given... Yet an alternative view is that these are valid business practices which may have enabled us to pull through a particularly dark period when we needed money as a club, but had no other sources.

That leads to the next contentious issue: spiraling debt and the cost of debt servicing. Is this crippling the club? Or is it being managed competently, given the huge and seemingly insurmountable problem of players' wages?

Debt and wages apparently mean we have to sell our best players... although there is skant evidence of this happening to date. Yes, the sale of Rooney, AJ, McFadden, Lescott has enabled us too fund incoming... although the claim is this stopped with Pienaar.

There are entrenched views that have decided all these things are fundamentally wrong components of the EFC business model. But I remain unconvinced. Yes, there are some very bad things in the Board's resume (DK, KD...etc). But you can't keep saying everything the Board does is bad, yet have Everton by some measures holding their own in an increasingly turbulent sea.

Relatively speaking, we've dropped a little from our peak these last 2 or 3 years... but the indications are that is because others around us have dramatically improved their lot. Which leads back to that age-old question: why have we been unable to get on that particularly lucrative bandwagon?

And there we have more polarizing statements: Bill has been searching 24/7 for 'investment', meets with two or three groups each week(!) who turn out to be bogus... Yet, according to the Kirkby papers and some vocal Evertonians, EVERTON IS NOT FOR SALE.

Sadly, it seems only the polarized views that are strong enough to break into the debate. Either we're plunging toward administration in 12-18 months, relegation in 5 years... or we're consolidating our own brand of affordable mediocrity under increasingly challenging conditions.

Fear promotes the former, but evidence suggest the latter...
Phil Martin
68   Posted 30/06/2011 at 19:05:37

Report abuse

James Martin #62,

Are you smoking illegal substances?

You still think employing Moyes 8 years ago earned enough credits to justify 10 years of fuck-ups?

Finch Farm? You do realise we sold it before it was even opened. We don't own it ? we lease it from a finance company. FFS wake up!

As for LFC being worth £800M. Total Bullshit again. They had an unsecured debt almost £300m and their revenues were no where near the likes of United or Arsenal. The fact they were puchased for around £200M with a £300M debt would indicate a value of £500M. That isnt cheap considering they to need a new stadium (£200-300M again).

Is any of this sinking in or do you just get your facts from the Daily Post?

The fact you didnt understand my point about the other clubs splashing the cash is another valid point. Clubs like Newcastle, being financially restricted after a decade of big spending makes sense. Everton FC still being crippled by record debt despite a decade of austerity and asset selling doesn't make quite as much sense. Unless of course we suggest our board aren't up to task.

Perhaps such accusations in your opinion are unjustified and we should lap up the medicority and sickening propaganda served by the club for the forseeable.

Excuse me (and the majority) for wanting more.
James Martin
69   Posted 30/06/2011 at 20:21:33

Report abuse

Phil Martin, if you speak for the majority of people on here then I probably should find some of those illegal substances. By the amount of dire negativity you spout with such verve bordering on enjoyment, it seems you could do with smoking some with me.

I don't read the Daily Post either, you see I can't, I'm too stupid, none of it 'sinks in'. Then again you don't seem to be the sharpest knife in the draw either. So we sold Finch Farm the moment it was built, it's still there isn't it? We still use it, don't we? Someone at Everton still sanctioned building the thing, or do you think Moyes was at it, a one-man job, every brick, then surprised the board with it?

Oh and has anyone seen the new Liverpool stadium being built? Oh no ? it's all gone quiet and vague talks of renovaitng Anfield are springing up instead. I'll be surprised if that ever gets done. Maybe they can fund it from the buy-to-sell policy they have started... oh no, wait, stupid me! The Daily Post and 'the majority' of ToffeeWeb say that only Everton can be branded as a selling club.

Phil Martin
70   Posted 30/06/2011 at 22:36:05

Report abuse


I think you're straying from my points. I derided our board's drastic asset stripping mentality. Finch Farm was a prime example of that. Of course someone sanctioned the build of it. However, we now pay for the privilege of using it and the proceeds generated from its sale have long vanished into the black hole of our debt. Or am I just 'not being the sharpest knife'?

I don't understand your point about LFC. You suggested the second load of yanks bought them for the "price of a Mondeo". Well, if you consider the £100Ms LFC was in debt, you expect to pay less than if they were debt free. Or is this too complex a concept for you?

To pretend Billy doesn't want to make any money out of EFC is totally untrue also. He took out a loan to pay for the shares to take control. Guess what? That loan was leveraged onto the club itself. He hasn't committed a penny of his own cash.

You call this negative, that's fine. But if things don't change, the club will be in a world of pain in the forthcoming years. Remember this conversation then.
James Martin
71   Posted 01/07/2011 at 00:25:55

Report abuse

Of course the second load of yanks paid less, exactly for the reason you've just pointed out. My point was that all this worshipping of Broughton is absolutely ridiculous because selling Liverpool couldn't have been any easier. Man U with their considerably greater debt than Liverpool had were being touted to the Qatari family for £1 billion.

There's a reason Hicks and Gillete sued for an infamous 'epic swindle'. They expected to make money on the sale based on their expectations of the market for a club the size of Liverpool. Broughton undercut that price by £100s of millions. I've heard that whole 'we wiped out all the debts' thing before, it's what Hicks and Gillete said before they then loaded it onto the club.

I just don't think these new Americans will turn out to be the financial messiahs Liverpool fans think they are. From the point of view of Kenwright, or any businessman for that matter, why would you hire someone who has just sold a different club cut price, ripping its owners off for millions?

If things don't change then we'll more than likely be in the same place in 5 years and the only thing I'll remember from this conversation is that there was this one guy trying to convince everyone that in 5 years we'll be relegated.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment to Fan Articles, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.

© ToffeeWeb
Subscribe to The Athletic, Get 40% off

Bet on Everton and get a deposit bonus with bet365 at


We use cookies to enhance your experience on ToffeeWeb and to enable certain features. By using the website you are consenting to our use of cookies in accordance with our cookie policy.