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Season 2011-12

From my seat: Man City (A)

By Ken Buckley   ::  24/09/2011
 90 Comments (Last)

The day we saw money talking

Everton's great record against City came to an end as our policy of prudence, denying our manager any leeway in the transfer market, was exposed by a squad of players assembled for vast sums of money. Where we were looking at youngsters and free transfers or loans to provide an attack, City had about £60M worth of them on their bench.

Our game plan was soon evident ? ?Park the bus? and look for something on a break or more likely a set piece in or around the box.

Rodwell was doing a man-marking job on their instigator in chief Silva and Coleman and Neville put in a great shift of closing down in midfield. It worked well for an hour but that was frustrating to watch as it was plain that we lacked someone in midfield who could run at their backline with the ball and someone to make the forward runs to create space.

Yet we did start on the front foot and for some six or so minutes we were on top but yet again we did well until that final third when a combination of not enough bodies busting a gut to get in and the man on the ball dallying because nothing was showing in front of him led to no more than hopeful stuff which generally petered out.

The half then settled into attack v defence and it was evident that much work had been done on defending as we frustrated the mega rich outfit to very few if any chances until 35mins when Howard had to turn away Aguero?s on target shot with Dzeko in close attendance. He then saved a Gareth Barry shot before the Blues ended the half as they had begun it, on top, but without that clinical killer instinct.

Half-time and, amongst all the singing in the concourse area, most thought we were doing as well as we could in the circumstances.

The second half started with City on top and from a cross right at the start Distin headed the ball out of Howard?s hands for a corner which came to nought. The half then rumbled on as in the first session, pretty turgid stuff with the hosts unable to penetrate a resolute defence in which Distin was excelling.

It was a bit galling to see such good defensive work which required a great deal of concentration against such attacking players that City possess having no out-ball once they had it under control which meant the ?Hoof? upfield and then the ball straight back and start again.

70 mins was looming and I thought, if we can frustrate them for another 10, maybe we can get some fresh lags on and hope they get desperate and we can nick one as I had just seen Cahill send a header just over after good work down the right from Hibbert and Coleman. I wish I hadn?t had such thoughts as at that moment City who had sent on Balotelli on the hour mark struck.

We were just sorting ourselves out after Cahill had to go off after a tackle with Kompany which, by the touchline reaction, Kompany was reckless, but the ref gave the free kick to City and booked Cahill, when Aguero came into the box from the right and rolled it to Balotelli who despatched it into the corner with some aplomb only for the big screen replay to show it deflected off Jags. After all that great defending, a deflection does for us. But, the more you let them in the more chances they will have.

Saha was on for Cahill and Rodwell stopped dogging Silva?s steps as we tried to fashion something. Silva hit a post enjoying his first moments of freedom. The manager sent on Drenthe for Neville then a last throw of the dice when Vellios replaced Coleman who had run himself to a standstill. City were now well on top as we opened the game up and Silva had the ball in the net only to be flagged offside.

Howard made a great save from Balotelli and Distin was doing the work of three men. You suspected a second goal for them would come but when it did it was all our own work. Drenthe dwelt on the ball as if not knowing what to do, he eventually tried to pick out Baines with a cross field pass but instead gave it to that man Silva who raced between Jags and Distin and laid on a superb through ball for Milner to finish.

In injury time the willing Vellios robbed Clichy on the by-line and fed Fellaini but his shot was cleared from the line. Final whistle and the travelling noisy faithful gave the lads a good send off. MotM ? Distin.

Overall I thought, considering the gulf in spending power and therefore the quality available to the hosts, we did very well in a tactical defensive sense and every player put in a great shift. Both their goals were a result of our own misfortune and poor play rather than super stuff. It?s just the last third that thwarts us, everyone knows what we need but, until such time as money is available from somewhere, this will have to be our forte.

Today I saw probably our best performance of the season in terms of graft, unity and concentration the players rally tried to make it work. I also thought that, for the short time the teenager Vellios was on, he looked to me as he just might turn out to be our best option up top, there was just something about him and his cameo that resonated with me. We can?t rely on Saha as one glimpse of his playing record will reveal...

Not all gloom and doom for me as for all the money lavished on City they didn?t look that great today and that says a lot for our players and management in these austere times.

I don?t like to criticise refs as I think most do a difficult job (In real time) very well but today our World Cup ref Mr Webb gave a strange performance, rightly booking a few of our players but not doing so to City players who committed very similar fouls. It was noticeable to many of us ? I just hope the assessor in the stand earns his corn.

Just a little matter of a clash with the neighbours next ? Of course we can do them ? can?t we?

Reader Comments

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Billy Bradshaw
1   Posted 24/09/2011 at 18:42:22

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We can Ken, only if Moyes plays a team with a positive intent. It should help with Cahill getting injured. Let's hope Osman gets injured in training and we may get a team out with attacking intentions; after all, we will be playing at home.
Trevor Mackie
2   Posted 24/09/2011 at 18:35:38

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"Just a little matter of a clash with the neighbours next ? Of course we can do them ? can?t we?"

No...... because if money talked in this game then what's the difference with the RS?

It's all so very pointless.
Michael Brien
3   Posted 24/09/2011 at 18:38:22

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I agree with your comments about Mr Webb - if he is the best there is then we have a big problem !! I thought his not sending off the Norwich player last week for the jump into Klasnic a very poor show indeed.

I thought Moyes tactics very poor - it became obvious the longer the game went on that we needed a specialist striker on the pitch. Yet again he waits until virtually the game is lost. Vellios looked good on the ball and held it up well. He is given about 10 minutes. What is the point of having 3 strikers on the bench and playing an attacking midfielder as an emergency striker ?

It's not getting the best out of Cahill nor is it getting the best out of Fellani who was also used as an emergency striker in the second half it would seem. !! When you have no other players available ok - but he had Saha, Vellios and Stac. These new lads are not going to learn unless they get game time.

I read Moyes comments about Vellios scoring last week. I would not have expected him to say something like " We can expect loads more goals from him" But for goodness sake could he not have given him some praise instead of being so damned negative? Moyes is one of the most frustrating Everton managers I have ever known. He set his stall out today for 0-0. Nobody would have expected him to "gung ho " all out attack - but is is too much to ask that we play a specialist striker ? All Vellios and Strac are going to learn by being kept on the bench is an appreciation of the architecture of English Premier League stadiums.

When we went a goal down Moyes and Round looked like Football's version of the Chuckle brothers - clueless. I don't have cricket coaching badges but I know that Pietersen is not a good choice as an opening bowler in a Test match for England. You don't have to have coaching badges to know that Cahill is NOT a centre forward.
Ian McDowell
4   Posted 24/09/2011 at 18:58:39

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I thought Moyes got the game plan spot on today. If it wasn't for a desperately unlucky goal... well, who knows? Mr Webb was also a disgrace and shows why it is so hard to win away at the big clubs.
Michael Brien
5   Posted 24/09/2011 at 18:57:13

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Ken - Playing on the sob story of not having the same money as Man City is crap. Moyes had strikers - he had a lad who in the Villa game nearly won it for us - he scores last week. How is he going to learn if Moyes doesn't play him ? We HAD strikers - 3 of them on the bench. City have been beaten at their place by other teams - but by teams who show some adventure.

There are teams lower in the league than us thet actually play 2 STRIKERS!!! SHOCK HORROR - Yes Ken 2 strikers some of them away from home. Moyes seems completely clueless when it comes to strikers and if he doesn't buck his ideas up then we are stuffed.

Yes Ken that's Mr David - very well paid to his job and he's got loads of coaching badges Moyes. If he is that good amanger Ken then why when jobs like Chelsea come up is he not in the frame? Or is he mentioned as a successsor to Ferguson ? No he isn't Ken - have you thought that might be because he favours a safety first negative approach ? Face the facts - Moyes is too negative.
Kieran Kinsella
6   Posted 24/09/2011 at 19:09:48

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I agree with Ken. City are better than us so if we attacked them we could have ended up losing by 5 or 6. Our best hope was a 1-0 or 0-0. We might have made it if not but for a few stupid and unfair yellow cards that inhibited out midfielders.

The striker complaining is getting old. Saha went for months last year without a goal and Vellios has about 50 mins of first team experience. When we beat City in the past we had Pienaar, Arteta, Beckford, Yakubu etc all of whom have left and not been replaced so it is ridiculous to come on here and complain because we lost 2-0 to a team that beat Spurs 5-1 away a few weeks ago and look like they are in a runaway two-horse race for the title.

If you want to criticize a game then criticize the tactics in the QPR game. This games was one we were always likely to lose. Be real people.

Andy Morden
7   Posted 24/09/2011 at 19:10:30

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One of my friends commented that we did to City what many teams who come to Goodison do to us ? dog us, make it hard, sit back and try to nick one.

The difference for me is that the teams we have played at Goodison recently all have someone in midfield/attack who can drive forward and pace (not to mention specialist forwards). Wigan, Villa and West Brom all provided us more of a threat than we did to City. Arguably because of the qualities the players they used have and how their manager set their team up to play.

Moyes stuck out a team with no pace (aside from Coleman), thus pulls them back in case they get caught out upfield. But then, he has few options! I expect more away displays like this.

I agree with Ken's comments about Vellios, he added a spark today. Maybe it is because he is playing tired defenders, but if we don't give him more chances, we'll never know how he'll fare from the off...

Peter Barnes
8   Posted 24/09/2011 at 19:18:49

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A team can still play conservative football with players playing in their correct positions. You don't have to be gung ho just because you have flank players playing on the flank and strikers playing up front ? as strikers.

One of our stars is without doubt Fellaini. But that is in central mid. Not up front. There, he is most definitely not a star and we are effectively wasting him.

Also, the simple fact is that, if you play most of the game in and around your own box, then, at some point, they are going to get chances. And, if they are any good, there is a good chance they will take one. Or two.

I would just love to see players play in their correct positions. I'm sure it would help.

John Ford
9   Posted 24/09/2011 at 19:31:54

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Ken's first paragraph nails it.

There are about £400 million reasons why we struggled today. That's what City have spent over the past three years.

Even if Vellios/Saha had started up front instead of Cahill, I can't see it would have made much difference, especially as Cahill ran his arse off, not exactly Saha's strength. Having said that, it would be good to see Vellios now given a run.

The reason teams spend squillions is that it wins games and it wins titles. It's grossly naive to think we can cope week-in, week-out against this. Tactically, Moyes was probably spot on, but this time unlike the previous two visits, it didn't work. City just spend and spend until they succeed. Nice work, eh!

Our record against money clubs is pretty decent. You could see how hard our lads were trying against quicker, more skilful opposition. Unfortunately, the gap is growing.
Dennis Stevens
10   Posted 24/09/2011 at 20:08:31

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I'm hoping your "policy of prudence" comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, Ken. If not, then I'd say you're flattering our Board, to say the least.
Steve Burgess
11   Posted 24/09/2011 at 20:11:05

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Fantastic report, Ken. I watched this on the net and I think you have really captured the team today brilliantly and saw the qualities in the perfromance which some will dismiss. I thought Distin was superb.

I would like to think that the lads will take something from this game. At the same time, I know the usual suspects will be lining up to crucify Moyes.

Aiden Doyle
12   Posted 24/09/2011 at 20:46:39

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Michael, you're talking shite.
Colin O'Keeffe
13   Posted 24/09/2011 at 19:25:02

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No point moaning about Moyes being defensive/negative. He's been playing the cautious game for nigh on 11 years ? it's in his DNA (he was a centre-half).

He seemed pleased with the display today and no doubt we'll see more of the same away against the top teams. He also mentioned in his interview what City had done to Spurs recently and the need to avoid a similar outcome. If we had been open against them today it would have been 4 or 5 easily.

Does anyone really think playing Vellios would have made any difference to the result? No, instead there was a risk of the lad having a nightmare and setting his confidence back.

Cahill was always going to be picked today so I'm not sure why people get worked up about it ? it's just the way it is. If Everton finish 7th this season they'll have won 'their league'; thinking we can compete on an even basis with City is just a pipe dream.

Trevor Mackie
14   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:03:10

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No, Aiden ? that would be Fergie talking shite.
Pete Gunby
15   Posted 24/09/2011 at 22:03:18

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Playing for a 0-0 may please some of you. It rarely works against a talented team. We played so deep that the goal was always going to come.

If you are in favor of the tactic, wouldn't you agree that the front man or men would need pace and holding skills to be effective. Cahill and Felli don't have the tools for the job Moyes gave them.

Unfortunately, Webb's ridiculous reffing took the bite out of our middle and caused us to play even deeper. Applaud the valiant loss if you like, I would have preferred a gameplan with a real chance. Nothing ventured, nothing gained ? fits the bill.

Derek Thomas
16   Posted 24/09/2011 at 22:28:35

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Pete Gunby (#15) ? Well said... all the rest of the wimps can do one and be happy winning 'Our League'.

And don't give me any of this 'Gameplan' malarky.

NON-GAMEPLAN more like. We fluked 3 pts at Blackburn and got lucky vs Wigan... Really looks like it's working well, dunnit???
Bob Parrington
17   Posted 25/09/2011 at 00:41:22

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I didn't get the chance to watch the game yet but my eldest son gave me a run down on the game and most of the comments in the posts here seem to suggest his report was spot on, including the wonder of the Mr Webb? We all wonder how he makes so many bad decisions that can change the course of a game!!

However, Davey Moyes should know that we can't play such a negative game and get away with it viz a vie Man Utd at Old Trafford last season. If your going to play so negatively you need at least players up the pitch who are going be able to hold the ball up. If it's continually going straight back at your defence it's just a matter of time before the other side scores.

We've had a good record in recent times against the likes of Man Utd, RS and Chelski by having a go at them. Why not at least try to win?!!!!
Rahman Talib
18   Posted 25/09/2011 at 02:40:40

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I think Moyes was spot on the tactics. If it wouldn't for the mistake by Drenthe and the deflection, we would have pulled through. We were just unlucky
Martin Mason
19   Posted 25/09/2011 at 04:50:52

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I despair. We were never going to get anything today other than a bad beating and in that respect we did as well as could be expected. The reality is that we are half the side that City are, a small financial pygmy of a club against a rich club and what you saw today is what you'll see every time we play any decent side. Moyes is negative but he has no choice, 2 strikers against any decent side and we will get absolutely hammered. Our only chance against even the worst teams is 4-5-1 and lucky goals.

Tim being out will be a great help, he distorts the team as he is neither a striker nor a decent midfielder but it will still be a negative line up

Liverpool will beat us next week, of that there is little doubt for me.
Rahman Talib
20   Posted 25/09/2011 at 03:01:36

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considering spurs lost 5-1 at home to these mofos, i say we did quite well.
Trevor Lynes
21   Posted 25/09/2011 at 09:31:26

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When we eventually brought the subs on CITY looked much more dangerous as Rodwell was freed from man marking Silva which was the only thing that kept us in the game...DM did a tactical job in the same way that a lower league side does when its drawn in the cup against a premier side....we have no one to compete with the top sides ability wise and that is the reason why DM sent his side out to play the way they did....The only people to blame for the situation is the board and the way they have allowed our once great club into this quagmire of mismanagement is criminal.
Our premier league is developing into another SFA with just two or perhaps three teams winning every week against much poorer teams and we are in the poorer teams group !!
If we continue to defend the way we do at present then we will survive and ALL the plaudits must be given to our heroic defenders....Distin has proved to be a wonderful acquisition and he along with the rest of the back four should be given thanks for preventing a very good City side from murdering us.
Once the subs came on and we started to try to attack, City became much more likely to score more goals when the game got stretched.
Ian Spence
22   Posted 25/09/2011 at 10:23:55

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I don't know where some of your heads are at! Tactics spot on, play for a draw, contain and nick 1 on the counter? What a load of bollocks! How can you counter attack when there's no fucking attackers on the pitch? Moyes has been a great manager for us, I think he's taken us as far as he can though. Thanks very much davey, but Fuck off and take your negativity with you!
Kevin Sparke
23   Posted 25/09/2011 at 10:50:03

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Nice measured report Ken, as always.
Brian Waring
24   Posted 25/09/2011 at 10:58:53

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I don't even think Moyes set - up to nick a goal, FFS, we have a corner, and we only have 4 players in the penalty area.
Richard Dodd
25   Posted 25/09/2011 at 10:56:36

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I got very depressed watching the game. Reminded me very much of the occasions when my Dad has persuaded me to accompany him to Marine! "Kick it anywhere and wait for it to come back!" seemed to be the sole tactic employed.

We may be skint but I think most of our players are capable of doing better than that. Very surprised with Ken`s report which echoed Moyes's praise of the gross negativity employed.

Was this my Damascus moment?

Mick Gallagher
26   Posted 25/09/2011 at 11:49:34

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Some on here might be happy playing like that but Im not so fucking negative and boring. He never got his tactics spot on as some say unless that was to lose 2-0 because thats what happened. So one was deflected and the other from a bad pass, how does Lampard score that are deflected SHOOT you never know. Dont forget for the first goal Felliani lost the ball on the edge of there area and they broke got a throw and 1-0. So we can expect the same aagainst the shite,chelski and the other mancs. Hopefully we fuck the shite next week to make up for yesterday and some other performances this season
Rant over now back to work in the rain offshore
James Morgan
27   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:00:05

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I can't remember ever feeling less disappointed about a result than yesterdays. Seeing City's multi million pound line up didn't give me much hope to start, but when I saw ours I felt defeated straight away.
I'd have rather lost 5 3 and be slightly excited than watch that negative, dour drivel.
If Moyes starts without a striker against the shite next week, I'm going to drive to his house and punch him square in his face.
Alasdair Mackay
28   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:34:35

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I honestly thought we were going to nick it until they scored the deflected goal. If we had had a less ridiculous refereeing display and a bit more luck with the first goal I think we could have done.

I think it was our best display of the season, despite the result and it seems we are not waiting till December to get our season going. There is no doubt we will improve as the season goes on, but we have to come out the other side of October still playing well and with our heads held high. If we can do that we have a great chance of a European place.
Mark Gargan
29   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:48:34

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I do not think Moyes had much choice with his starting line up. He needed to pick players he could trust. Saha was not fit enough to start and has not completed a full match in pre-season. Stracqualursi is not yet ready for the Premiership. Vellios is excellent but is not deemed ready to start. Therefore he could not pick a striker from the kick off. The plan was obviously to frustrate then go for it near the end. The risk in bringing on players who do not have Premiership experience was shown when Drenthe gave the ball away for the second goal.
My only quibble was the failure to push people up at corners. I know we would have been vulnerable on the break but the chance of scoring must surely have outweighed that risk.
Bob Parrington
30   Posted 25/09/2011 at 13:12:52

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Now I'm really worried. Even many of the posts on this string are showing an acceptance of mediocrity. Where's the spirit gone? Mick #24 Well done. Nice to hear the "fight" in you
Andrew Rimmer
31   Posted 25/09/2011 at 13:11:33

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Velios, Stracqualursi not ready?? I remember Rooney not being ready when he scored a hat trick for united in the Champs league on his debut!
Terry Downes
32   Posted 25/09/2011 at 13:39:42

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Unbelievable, name any other manager to go without a recognised striker,
Yet still fans stick up for him...UNBELIEVABLE
Martin Mason
33   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:01:31

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The concept that anybody accepts mediocrity is nonsense. There is a difference between accepting mediocrity and accepting that defeat against City was not a suicide event. It is exactly the same as accepting that everton are now a small club who can not compete against the likes of City and United. Anybody who believes that this is not so is in some kind of denial.
Michael Kenrick
34   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:10:32

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The puzzle for some of, Martin, is that we have been able to compete with them where it matters ? on the field of play during the 90 minutes. We have competed and we have won some ? just last season, you may recall.

Have things really changed that much in terms of the limited resources Moyes accepts as his tools? After all, he repeatedly tells us all the decisions about players are his alone. That therefore includes the loss of Pienaar and Arteta.

No; what's changed is Moyes. He's gone even further into his shell. Even deeper into another negative dour shite anti-football funk. Accepting that is accepting mediocrity ? or something below mediocrity. It's interesting that it's all his regular apologists who accept and excuse this, while anyone who dares to suggest another path is accused of not getting real.

On another thread, Steve Higham got it right: IMWT ? In Mediocrity We Trust
Mike Green
35   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:21:52

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Get real Michael FFS.
Ryan Holroyd
36   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:36:44

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Have things really changed that much in terms of the limited resources Moyes accepts as his tools?

Yes. Is the easy answer to that question.

Piennar and Arteta have left and NOT been replaced with sufficient quality.

Man City on the other hand have got Dzeko, Nasri and Aguero, three genuine world class players.

It's not 'accepting Mediocrity. it's been realistic.

Its 2011, we're not in the late 80s anymore.

We're a mid sized club in the premier league.
Michael Kenrick
37   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:47:51

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It's got nothing whatsoever to do with being in the late 80s anymore. What a pathetic comment.

We're talking about how Everton played just last season. Do try to keep up will you!

We're supposed to be a top-ten Premier League club that was not intimidated by any other team. This season we've lost that and it's all too clear there is only one man to blame.
Chris Butler
38   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:01:41

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Yesterday, I think Everton reached a new low: never have I seen an Everton team lacking such little ambition to succeed.

I ignore the comments of many people who believe we should simply accept losing to City because they have more money than us. Football doesn?t work like that; managers have to do the best they can with the resources they're provided with. For the last few seasons, I don?t believe Moyes has done that.

In my opinion there is just no pressure on the players, the manager or the board. David Moyes knows that he can never be sacked as long as Bill Kenwright is at Everton and Kenwright knows he?ll always have support as long as Moyes is at Everton. Moyes operates like a corrupt policeman in a mafia move protecting some godfather. Kenwright in my opinion is just a man out of his depth, who doesn?t really know what to do; Moyes is different.

My problem is with Moyes is that he never seems to learn anything and we never seem to progress. I?ll give you an example: we get two 0-0 draws with Chelsea in the league playing the ball on the floor, yet, in the FA Cup Final, Moyes decides to play hoofball meaning we constantly gave away possession.

He doesn?t seem to be able to identity when players are underperforming ? everybody remembers last year with he continually played Heitinga in midfield. He decided that Everton would offer a contract to the ineffective Mikel Arteta, despite the fact he?d been useless since his injury. Jags to me is becoming like another Yobo, very good to start off with then just seems to constantly lose his concentration.

£14 million could have easily bought us a decent striker. We have enough cover in that area of the field. Then it would have been alright to sell two strikers, but to sell two half-decent strikers and bring in no real replacement is unforgivable. Say what you like about Beckford but he chipped in with quite a few goals despite it being his first season in Premier League football.

I disagree with the notion DM has had no money to spend; he has had money on some occasions and wasted it. £10 million on Billy, £11 Million on the Yak, £8 million on AJ. His biggest crime though was to spend £15 million on Felaini then spend 2 years playing him in the wrong position.

We?re now left with an over-defensive side, a midfield defunct of any kind of creativity. More and more fans are voting with their feet and choosing not to attend games anymore... and I?m one of them. Our attendances have decreased by nearly 4000 fans which tell you quite a lot. On Saturday it?s highly likely we?re going to get beaten 3-0 by Liverpool, despite Moyes setting up a 4-6-0 formation.

Neither the players, the manager, nor the owner seem to have any ambition of trying to help Everton progress. Moyes seems quite happy to just sit at Everton getting paid £70k a week acting as Kenwright's PR man.

I don?t believe we?ll buy anybody decent in January with the money, Moyes will probably buy another central defender or a defensive midfielder. I don?t believe we even deserve to continue as a football club, the way the club takes advantage of our loyal fans is disgusting, after all it?s only ever us that suffer.

I disagree with the Blue Union: DM is just as much to blame for the mess we?re in as, like BK, it doesn?t seem bothered about our decline. He?s just waiting for a phone call from United... and, by that time, we could playing in the Championship. Him and BK need to be ousted if Everton FC is to survive.

Mike Green
39   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:57:26

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So why not start an official "Moyes Out" campaign Michael? Or are you talking about Bill......?
Nick Entwistle
40   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:33:14

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Moyes went defensive against City, yet against Wigan (though uninspiring) and against Villa it was anything but anti-football.

He saw the opposition and set his team up how he thought best. I didn't like it, but I don't think those tactics will be employed against Liverpool either.

One match of shite and everyone thinks its how it always was and how it always will be.

Michael Kenrick
41   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:03:19

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Mike, most realists recognize Moyes is going nowhere. Even BU changed their tune on ousting Bill. Neither of them are leaving unless some miracle befalls us.

But your comment belies a failure to understand what we're really talking about here. Moyes is the manager for fuck's sake. Yet he sets up his Everton team to lose, and he and his apologists expect the fans to accept that.

All I've ever called for is for Moyes to do a better job, yet we have to accept this media/pundit bollocks that everything he does is wonderful "under the circumstances". Well, it isn't... and he needs to be called on it.

Sadly, far too many Evertonians accept this bollocks; I cannot.
Ryan Holroyd
42   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:06:57

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Its funny how this negative shit manager, has the 5th highest points total in the Premier League.

Lets get Owen Coyle in. He's been to Arsenal and got spanked, Liverpool and got spanked, played City at home and got spanked and whos team is bottom of the league.

Or Ian Holloway who got his team relegated

Or Nigel Clough as someone said on here the other day.

Or maybe the other managers who Moyes keeps coming ahead of season after season.
Ryan Holroyd
43   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:12:07

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Michael, people don't accept it, most are just ' realists' as you put it.
Al Reddish
44   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:14:38

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If Moyes always sets out his team to lose he is doing a really shit job at it!
Maybe we should go for Owen Coyle as he is the new forward thinking manager that works with limited money.......remind me where are Bolton in the league?
Mike Green
45   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:02:53

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"On Saturday it?s highly likely we?re going to get beaten 3-0 by Liverpool, despite Moyes setting up a 4-6-0 formation."

What a load of shite! Give the bloke some credit - in fairness to him, right or wrong, he'll play 4-5-1 and there's no such thing as a "highly likely" correct score never mind 3-0 away. Put a tenner on it Chris, its got a chance but highly likely it isn't. Probable, maybe. Possible, clearly. Highly Likely? No.

Re: Money - check out the success rate v money spent stats and unfortunately that is exactly how football currently works - else how do you explain City's current success? Mancini? Chelseas trophy haul over teh past two decades? Even Blackburn's Premier League title.......?

We've beaten the odds over the past two seasons but unfortunately its a bridge too far now as far as City are concerned, we'll get the odd glorious victory over them, like Chelsea and Man Utd, but the odds are stacked too high against us now. Sad - but true I'm afraid.

Ryan Holroyd
46   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:16:02

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Chris, Moyes bought AJ for £8M and got decent service from him and made a profit, hardly wasting money.

Yak got 20 goals in his 1st season and then got injured. Hardly Moyes's fault that, is it?

Billy I'll give you.

Beckford was shite and to get £4M for him is great business.

The fact is Moyes has had money but much much less than people believe are our peers like Villa, Spurs.
Al Reddish
47   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:21:55

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Bill Kenwright is on record as telling Moyes "I will give you £5m a year for transfers" (big fuckin deal). What he actually has given him is closer to £2.3m, not even Yaya Toure's wages!
Mike Green
48   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:20:36

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MIchael - I was incenced by Moyes's set up v WBA and Wigan but the only mistake he made yesterday was playing Rodwell instead of Heitinga. So - yes, I would've been even more defensive.

I'm not being funny - wherever that term "apologist" came from it's fucking hilarious - a little badge used by little people.
Brendan O'Doherty
49   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:31:52

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Hear hear, Mike.
Mick Gallagher
50   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:43:18

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So far this season we have played well against Villa and in parts Wigan. Totally shite against, QPR, City and were lucky as fuck against Blackburn. Crowds down fans happy to accept this shite so far and blame it all on having no money. Look around the ground on Saturday and see how many of them gobshites are in the ground.
Michael Brien
51   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:47:23

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It's all very well playing 4-5-1 but yesterday Moyes didn't even do that - he would rather play an experienced player out of position than play a specialist striker. Yes Vellios is inexperienced and Strac is new to English football but how are they supposed to learn from being given the odd 1o minute cameo?

After last week's result against Wigan, David Moyes apparently made more of Vellios not spotting Osman was free and putting hin through for a chance for 4-1 than of the goal that the lad had scored. Unbelievable!!! I know that a good manager would want to keep the lad's feet on the ground and not go overboard in singing his praises, but a good manager would also give the lad some praise.

The only period of the game yesterday that we seemed to cause City problems was in the last 10 minutes when we had 2 strikers on the pitch. Did you notice how when the ball was played up to Vellios he was able to keep hold of it and lay it off to an Everton player ? How many times ws Cahill able to do that ? And that's NOT a citicism of Tim - he is a midfield player - an attacking midfield player NOT a centre forward.

Alan Ball was top scorer in his first couple of seasons I think it was but do you think he would have been played as centre forward/striker if Alex Young or Joe Royle were available !!?

And Aiden #12 If you seriously think that David Moyes has a chance of being a future manager of Manchester United/Chelsea/Arsenal then it is you who are taking shite. He is living on this myth of creating a team on shoe string - yet in the space of 12 months August 2007 and August 2008 he spent £26M on 2 players - Yak and Fellani - I am sure there's other managers out there who would like to have had that kind of money to spend. He gets very well paid - and I for one expect some kind of tactical vision from someone so highly rated as a coach. Instead we get the same old story everytime - to say his tactics are predictable is an understatement.

Consider this - Vellios and Strac are both unknown quantities. We don't know what they are capable of - well neither do opposing teams and their managers. Might it not be useful to consider the element of surprise as being a strength in our squad. No our Manager , who whines on about the lack of experience which I doubt will do wonders for the confidence of the players.

Maybe these lads will work out to be good Premier League players - maybe they will not. But there's only one way to find ot and that's by giving them a chance. They are not going to learn much by being given the odd 10 minutes. Both could learn a lot by being played alongside Saha - but will that happen ? Two strikers playing in the same match from the start ? 4-4-2 ? It's hardly revolutionary is it ? Perhaps for Moyes it is!!!

John Ford
52   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:42:04

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Excellent posts Mike and Ryan.

Michael Kenrick, this notion that Moyes sets his teams up to lose just isn't supported by actual results. Your arguments, never supported by evidence, and the now opportunistic sneering at Moyes and his supporters is getting tiresome.

I could take your opinons as just that if they weren't accompanied by veiled insults and childish taunts at those who have actually bothered to reflect on context or who have bothered to look at real actual results during Moyes tenure.

There is a case against Moyes based on the desire for more attacking football, and some here articulate this well, they accept the risk this brings in the name of being better entertained. They know teams who try this often end up in the shit, but view it as an honourable way to play. Fair enough.

However your own criticisms are bitter, malevolent and show no understanding or recognition of what opening up does to teams (exept money clubs). No context. You assume to insult other more rational arguments, yet your naivity is there for all to see. I suggest you read and learn from other Moyes detractors.

Examine Moyes Premier League record over the past eight seasons and then compare with other managers and other teams. Then bother to look at the influence money has in terms of success - do so in a structured way - in fact, I'll do it for you - there is a direct correlation! You fail to understand the implications of this.

For the reasons mentioned I'll no longer take your reports/comments seriously, much as I admire you/anyone for running a forum like this, but I can get 'off the chest stuff' on other sites.
Paul Ferry
53   Posted 25/09/2011 at 19:26:40

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I have just read quite possibly the most moronic comments I have ever read on ToffeeWeb by someone called Rahman Talib. (1) 'Considering Spurs lost 5-1 at home to these mofos, I say we did quite well'. (2) 'I think Moyes was spot on the tactics. If it wouldn't for the mistake by Drenthe and the deflection, we would have pulled through. We were just unlucky'.

What myopic, hare-brained, limp-wristed, yellow, white-flag waving surrender. It's not realism. It's not accepting the inevitable. It's not cash-poor versus cash-heavy. Nor is it a case of bad luck or us doing a little better than another team. Pure defensive, apologist, Moyes-blinded drivel.

Hey Rahman ? do you accept mediocrity in all walks of life? Yesterday was all down to Moyes. It wasn't even down to what he had available to him through our lying, 'professional' scouser, arrogant, small-minded chairman, who belongs not in the present, but in the Peter Swales years (although at least Swales dug into his pockets for the team he owned and apparently loved).

I cannot believe that anyone could possibly write that Moyes was 'spot on' with his tactics. 'Spot on'! Richard Dodd, I applaud your honesty and integrity on coming on this board with that dose of actual realism.

The realism yesterday was not to be counted in pounds, shillings, and pence, but in the unforgettable and heart-breaking sight of an Everton manager with no guts, no nous, no ambition, no dare, and worst of all, no belief that the players he had on his hands might have done much better if only he had let them play to their individual abilities and strengths.

Make no mistake, we have some quality players, who ? when deployed well and at their best ? can be a treat to watch. The blame for yesterday's humiliating capitulation rests squarely on Moyes's seemingly very broad shoulders: no apology, no humility, not even a hint of an 'I may have got it wrong', but bullshitting Kenwrightesque "Didn't we do well defensively?" No Moyes, we didn't do well defensively, we conceded two goals (I don't give a shit if one or both was deflected).

Rahman and your ilk, you might like watching 11 EFC players camped in their own half and every commentator under the sun saying that it's only a matter of time before City score (bad luck, my fucking arse), but I don't and it seems that a number of others feel the same. This cowardly cave-in is not the Everton I was raised to watch and adore (and still adore) from the 1970s on.

Don't fudge the issue and whine on and on about money and luck running out. That was close to Moyes's worst ever 96 minutes in Everton's driving seat. And nothing will change, it seems, barring a miracle.

I respect Trevor Birch and his comments make chilling reading today after yesterday. I would love to be constructive, but at this minute all I can think of is £30 million for Barkley, you gotta be kidding me.

You embarrassed my great club yesterday, Moyes.

John Ford
54   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:13:30

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apologies due I reckon!

...and nicely put Jeff
Trevor Lynes
55   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:10:14

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This is NOT the same team as last season Mike!! We have LOST players by selling them and brought in 'unknowns' for next to nothing!! If you want to criticize anyone at the club it MUST be the board who have lowered both the numbers and the ability of the squad shamefully. I don't believe that ANY other manager in the league would want DM's job as he knows that there will be NO support from the present board.

If DM had played an attack-minded side and we had lost heavily then the damage to both our league position and confidence of the players would have been immeasurable. We have a very small squad and survival is the best we can expect in view of the way our club's assets (both players and money) has been squandered.

Look realistically at the squad we have and compare it with virtually every other teams' squads and stop just blaming Moyes for everything.

Andrew Rimmer
56   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:12:14

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Michael #51. spot on lad! But it isn't in Moyse's nature to play 2 up front! Never has been. I felt sorry for Becks last season, he clearly was at odds with the manager that's maybe because most of his career he has been told to " Go out and enjoy yourself" No chance with Moyes barking inane instructions constantly from the sidelines! Er what posiion did Moyes play when he was a player? It wasn't as a free scoring striker was it? Oh and why is Owen Coyle always mentioned? I'd have Nigel Adkins, if only he would come to a team on the way down, from a team on the way up!
Trevor Mackie
57   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:18:18

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John Ford

You've taken over Dave Wilson's mantle off talking pompous garbage.

MK's responses were nothing of the sort.

I read another equally long post of yours along the lines of "400 million reasons why Citeh beat us......blah balh blah", then another post you trumpet a prospective win in next weeks derby.

Where's your logic?

There's a 100 + million reasons why the RS will beat us according to your analysis.

What rubbish.

If money is the be all and end all why did Stoke give Utd a goal start yesterday then comeback and nearly win it?
John Ford
58   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:35:12

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Trevor, teams spending millions doesnt mean theyre gonna win every game but over a season the fact is they will win more. Simple as that.

You suggested we should follow Fulham's example against City. They were at home, it was one game, they'll bomb as usual by the end of the season.

Why do you think the same teams win everything? ? because they spend money. You seem to be in denial about this.

We might beat the shite next week, but I know one thing for certain, if we'd spent £100m before the season started we'd have a better chance doing it!

Chris Butler
59   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:25:06

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All I'm pointing out is Moyes has got rid of the likes of Vaughan,Yak and Beckford yet he's brought in no replacement. Denis and Vellios wouldn't be bad against Wigan in the carling cup but Premier League football I doubt it. Baines was excellent as usual as was Distin it's a pity about the other 9 players. Rodwell and Felaini should never play together because it usually means 1 of them is going to play awfully. Cahill can only generally score from crosses, nowadays we don't have any decent wingers. I'd bring back Pienaar on loan or buy him and try and find a decent striker.

I just can't believe he let Beckford and the Yak go we're missing any type of goal threat. At least last season if Saha was playing poorly you could of brought in Beckford. Denis looks good in the air but we don't put in enough crosses, I pray to god we beat the RS next week but I am expecting a defeat. Playing defensive football is great, if you know how to defend to don't at the moment. Drenthe has to start along with Saha if we want to beat the RS. At City last season we played attacking football from the off scored then sat back, we sat back after the 10th minute. For the first time in years I don't have any hope that we'll beat the RS.

Andrew Rimmer
60   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:51:12

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Not with the current manager, John
John Ford
61   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:55:07

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Id like to find out either way Andrew.
Trevor Mackie
62   Posted 25/09/2011 at 21:41:57

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John Ford

You're not the full ticket are you?

I didn't suggest anything - Fulham.????

Bloody timewaster.

John Ford
63   Posted 25/09/2011 at 21:55:10

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Trevor, swap fulham for stoke, it doesnt matter, its the same point - which you chose to ignore.

Clearly you dont 'geddit'?

Keep on whinging instead boy!

Trevor Mackie
64   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:28:39

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John Ford

You ARE Dave Wilson......making stuff up, sanctimonious, not answering questions.

Mike Green
65   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:17:04

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Trevor (56) - Stoke came back courtesy of a - like him or not - £10 million proven International striker signed close season. Not a loanee, not a Championship player with potential, a been there, seen it, done it, top flight proffessional goalscorer.

Fair play Chris Butler - I know where you're coming from and think we're all frustrated and a bit pissed off in general. To be honest despite his brace Yak had to go, its a shame it didn't work out for Becks as he had great movement but how much more...? As for Saha, if were pinning our hopes on him I think we're proper fucked so it's Vellios all the way!

Moyes is far from perfect, I'm calling for his head every other week but he shouldnt be judged on losing to City away any more than he should be judged last season for winning the same fixture.

I'm as jaundiced as anyone by 6-5-1 but it was the right thing to do yesterday IMO and could be next weekend though I'd rather see Vellios given a start and go for it.

If we get beat 3-0 I will buy you a bottle of your favourite tipple - we'll be all right but I understand your concerns.
Mike Green
66   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:51:11

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By the way - 6-5-1 - it's a 13 man-a-side game now if you hadn't heard.... Davey loves it! :D
Trevor Mackie
67   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:59:38

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Mike Green

"Trevor (56) - Stoke came back courtesy of a - like him or not - £10 million proven International striker signed close season"

So what ?

The financial differntial between the 2 clubs remains.- Manu spend that much on toilet paper.

This differential is the justification proffered for the Moyes tactics - it's bullshit - Stoke nearly won because they had a go.
John Ford
68   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:38:16

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Trevor why do you persist in hand picking games to justify a weak point? Its just as easy to pick on numerous games when the top teams (rich) twatted the lesser teams (poor). In fact there are more of them!

The gulf in wealth is apparent over a season. Games sometimes produce unlikely results, it proves nothing except that theres still a bit of unpredictability left in the game.. At the end of the day Stoke will finish below us, like all these teams did last year.

Did they 'have a go' when they got dicked four-nil by Sunderland? You cant have it both ways. Take the blinkers off.
Trevor Mackie
69   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:51:16

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John Ford/ Dave Wilson

Not interested're an idiot
John Ford
70   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:54:59

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hah the words of old Dan set and match!

Keep taking the meds.
Trevor Mackie
71   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:00:11

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Thank you - first sensible thing you've ever said.

Sleep tight. ahh
Mike Green
72   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:53:47

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Trevor - Stoke bought Crouch in to do a job. They even invested £10m in him to do it + not insignificant wages I'll bet. Yesterday he did that job.

We did not buy anyone in to do that job - hence that job was not done. Is maths not your strong suit?
Mike Green
73   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:02:46

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And by the way - I'M DAVE WILSON
Brendan O'Doherty
74   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:27:09

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No you're not Mike, I AM.

Andy Crooks
75   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:24:08

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There are some good defences of David Moyes here. I;m sorry Dave Wilson isn't on because he adds a lot to this site, likewise Ian Tunstead. However, I cannot see any logical defence of the tactics on Saturday. We played with fear and it was embarrassing.
Brendan O'Doherty
76   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:30:28

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Get Pulis in FFS.

Next week's episode on TW:

Get Pardew in FFS.

Michael Kenrick
77   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:31:33

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John Ford, the context here is yesterday's game.

Unfortunately, the evidence is very clear that Moyes adopted a totally negative approach (surely nobody in their right mind is arguing otherwise?) He even abandoned any pretence of hope for plucky little Everton with his abominable 'knives/guns' comment.

Such negativity prior to a key Premier League fixture ? one Everton had won in the previous two seasons ? was a shocking dereliction of his duty as manager. This arguably set the team up to lose... and they duly obliged. A number of fans can see that... and a number can't. All I can do is express my viewpoint.

If it helps, I accept your disdain for this viewpoint... I feel likewise about yours; however, bringing such a personnel attack into the discussion is not appreciated, so please drop that angle.
Mick Davies
78   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:57:52

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City have spent millions so we should be quaking with fear when we play them? Well let's just examine their team and work out who is such a danger to us that we have to spend most of the game with 9 outfield players inside or around our pen area. Lescott, we all know him and his weaknesses, not a world class player and if SWP can outjump him why can't Velios? Kompany, an aeging carthorse who always runs out of position and exposes his other defenders, but that doesnt matter when the opposition have no one up there. Barry, Richards, Clichy, Nasri, Milner. Weve played against these players without fear many times. Only Aguero and Silva posed a real problem and Rodwell kept the latter in place. So why do we go there and play teams at home, and defend like total underdogs? Well i've said it before and i'll say it again. Moyes was a defender, Round was a defender and Stubbs too. So who coaches the attacking players? Once Irvine left we started going downhill and when Moyes allows creative and attacking players to leave (Arteta, Pienaar, Yak, Beckford, Vaughan, Gosling) without uttering a single protest it's no wonder we are sitting in the Maginot line every week
Mike Green
79   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:14:15

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Mick, we were total underdogs yesterday, lets be right FFS. Thats why the bookies had us at 7/1.
Rahman Talib
80   Posted 26/09/2011 at 04:14:17

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If Moyes had adopted the normal way of playinng. we'd be 4-0 down with 60 minutes of play to go.

He was right to camp in our own half. he was unlucky to go down 1-0 on a deflection.

My take was that he was going to use his subs in the last 20 minutes to get something out of the game.


Learn to live with it.

Sometimes, a plan just doesn't work the way it;s supposed to be.
Rahman Talib
81   Posted 26/09/2011 at 04:20:04

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Plus, City must've handed Howard Webb a truckload amount of cash for him to work in their favor. I don't think Barcelona could've beaten City with Webb blowing the whistle (that red bastard).
Martin Mason
82   Posted 26/09/2011 at 09:20:06

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Football is not a game of only attacking, defending is an incredibly skilful part of the game too. Attacking is not necessarily positive as defending is not necessarily negative. The idea of the game is not necessarily to have to win but if you are a side with limited resources to maximise your results however that is done whether by drawing or even minimizing your goals against. I'm afraid that those who blast Everton for being "negative" against City don't really know much about the game. We have typically beaten them and other good sides by holding and scoring an opportunist goal. Cahill getting injured spoiled that Saturday but otherwise we played well at times.

We can not play 4-4-2 against hardly any team in the EPL now, our midfield and defence are simply not strong enough. Arsenal attacked and Man U and shipped 8, Spurs attacked City and shipped 5, Chelse played a beautiful attacking 4-3-3 at United and were 3 down at half time despite playing very good football.

Jack Rodwell had a fantastic game despite being slagged by many here. Do we really deserve a good side? I wonder sometimes as I feel that the sentimentality would be generally negative from many if we had the 1970 side back again.
Aiden Doyle
83   Posted 26/09/2011 at 09:23:54

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Michael B, the reason I accused you of talking shite is because the ?facts? that you told Ken he needed to face were nothing of the sort.

You said that ?If he is that good amanger [sic] Ken then why when jobs like Chelsea come up is he not in the frame?? Well never know who was really on Abramovich?s shortlist but the media certainly touted Moyes as a potential successor when Hiddink moved on. The bookies agreed.

You asked ?is he mentioned as a successsor to Ferguson ?? and provided the answer ?No he isn't Ken?. Actually, he has been. Repeatedly. The link I provided was simply one of numerous examples.

Even though I disagree with it, your opinion of Moyes is one you?re fully entitled to hold and to express. The problem is, your own argument - that if Moyes was actually any good he?d be linked to jobs like these - undermines the credibility of your case.
Michael Brien
84   Posted 26/09/2011 at 14:03:11

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Aiden - do you seriously think he will be the next Man United manager?
Andrew Rimmer
85   Posted 26/09/2011 at 16:35:50

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Rahman. If Moyes had adopted the normal way of playinng. we'd be 4-0 down with 60 minutes of play to go.

Moyes DID adopt his normal way of playing, it was just with a midfielder in a strikers role instead of a striker! I wonder how long many premiership managers spend trying to work out what tactics everton will play against them?
Ian Tunstead
86   Posted 26/09/2011 at 17:00:54

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It was good tactics by Moyes especially the way he used Rodwell. Rodwell continuously does a vanishing act in games so to have him man mark Silva was a master stroke, they both canceled each other out. That was good for us because their most creative player was neutralised for a large portion of the game and it was not a huge loss to ourselves that Rodwell couldnt contribute to the team attacking wise because that is just a standard game for Rodwell.

As soon as City scored and Rodwell released the shackles to try to contribute something going forward, Silva immediately had a goal dissalowed, hit the post and then set up the 2nd goal. I dred to think what he could have done over the entire 90 mins had Rodwell not been shaddowing him all over the pitch.
Jeremy Benson
87   Posted 26/09/2011 at 17:11:43

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Haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but would like to add my comment;

Personally, I was gutted and pretty angry when I saw the team sheet. It was clear that we were hoping for a 0-0 draw.

Which is naive - you can't possibly hope to defend and not concede for 90 minutes against a team like city who has even on the substitutes bench got players who can produce something from nothing.

Do it in the last 15 minutes maybe to get a result...

I would rather have seen a 4-4-2 line up with instruction to give it everything going forward for the first 45 to try and score first and get up them enough they were rattled. I would rather lose 4-0 giving it everything up front than lose 2-0 trying to park the bus. Same points either way, but one has the fans respect...
David Holroyd
88   Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:17:30

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Moyes is going to play that system every time we play a team thats got more money than we have thats nearly everyone seems like hes given up.
Michael Brien
89   Posted 27/09/2011 at 07:34:14

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A mate text me last night a very interesting question - Can we look forward to Aldershot v Man United and expect the Aldershot manager to believe that his team is so inferior that he will play no strikers ? Any thoughts on that one ?
Martin Mason
90   Posted 27/09/2011 at 13:10:08

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KO competition isn't the same as a marathon of a championship campaign. If it was the first leg at United they would park the bus because that would be the only strategy they have.

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