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Season 2011-12

A Word on “Email-Gate”

By Lyndon Lloyd   ::  18/11/2011
 45 Comments (Last)

Any regular reader of these pages will know that ToffeeWeb is no stranger to controversy but I have to admit that I'm dismayed that this site is now being associated on websites of the local and national press with the leak by an "Ethan Dyer" of a string of email correspondence between Everton FC officials.

It's fair to say that in the watchdog capacity that we have often assumed, many things have been revealed on ToffeeWeb that otherwise wouldn't have gained wider exposure and with regard to episodes like Kirkby, the Kings Dock and Fortress Sports Fund, many would argue that the context provided by that shared knowledge has been positive in framing a wider analysis of the last decade.

That doesn't extend, in my opinion, to the posting, in their entirety, of emailed exchanges between members of the Goodison hierarchy, without any journalistic context, proof of their validity or justification by way of explanation for posting the whole thread, "warts and all."

Some of the more entrenched opponents of the Kenwright regime would probably justify the means vis-a-vis the end ? though I'm not sure what end is being served here ? and, personally, I can't condone it.

Reader Comments

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer

Alex Kociuba
1   Posted 18/11/2011 at 19:15:59

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Is there not a distinction between users on Toffeeweb publishing a link to an external document which shows an e-mail exchange and Toffeeweb publishing/hosting the document/emails?
David Hallwood
2   Posted 18/11/2011 at 19:20:47

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Lyndon why is the link missing?
Matt Traynor
3   Posted 18/11/2011 at 19:40:14

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It's a bit of a nightmare. As I posted on the other thread about Everton investigating, I've seen many a bad situation arise due to email communication, its mis-use, mis-interpretation and so on.

I really have for years wondered how organisations functioned before email. I've seen people spend their entire working day on email, achieving nothing. I've been emailed by the person next to me, and when I asked "WTF didn't you just turn and speak to me" was told he wanted an "audit trail" of his instructions to me.

In many organisations now, senior management have more than 1 email address. The private one is so the PA doesn't see. I've received emails from clients that left me wondering about their candour, before realising it was a personal email account.

As I mentioned on the other thread, in some jurisdictions emails are admissable in a court of law. For that reason, it's always safest to assume that your email is public (and if you've ever had your personal email compromised by China, that's not bad advice!)

It still doesn't resolve the issue about the use of email.
Alan Clarke
4   Posted 18/11/2011 at 19:47:44

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The horse has already bolted, Lyndon. Judging by the fact it is now being reported that Ian Ross has been suspended, we can safely assume the emails were not fake.

There's 2 ways of looking at this. Do you get pissed off about the way the emails were leaked and published and not focus on their content or do you just focus on their content? The content is fairly damaging to the current administration at the club, which ever way you try and interpret them.

It's a bit like The Blue Union's interview with Kenwright. Do you get pissed off about how the transcript of the interview was obtained or do you focus on its content?

With the mess Everton are in at the moment, the content is far more important. I hope people can see what a bunch of clowns run our club and that's why I'll be on the protest march tomorrow.
Simon Atkins
5   Posted 18/11/2011 at 20:12:06

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Alan @4 - interesting post that. I think we should be concerned by both the way they were leaked and the content itself.

I suppose it only serves to confirm what we know... Everton Football Club is in a great big mess from top to bottom.

Very sad.
Brian Lawlor
6   Posted 18/11/2011 at 20:20:32

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Alan - how do you know he's been suspended? If your definition of 'reports' is a few lines that appeared on NSNO, then they've now been removed which suggests more bullshit being reported.
Ged Alexander
7   Posted 18/11/2011 at 20:22:50

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Can we all just grow up....
Anthony Manning
8   Posted 18/11/2011 at 21:06:17

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Brian'6, do you think the leaked e mails are bullshit then?
Brian Lawlor
9   Posted 18/11/2011 at 21:10:53

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I dont know. We'll have to wait and see. The point im making is that NSNO claimed he was suspended but have now removed this article. Why? The only reason I can see is because it's bullshit and perhaps they've been leaned on.

We all know that the club is great at PR bullshit and quite frankly Ross is a total idiot. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this email debacle is shit-stirring by the Blue Union. Just saying like.
Robert Daniels
10   Posted 18/11/2011 at 21:24:09

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I believe the e.mails to be real; what I do think is:?

Dread to say it... but maybe, just maybe Ross isn't the villain, or the incompetent one.

It's Ellstone; he is rambling about letters etc, as Ross says the club are or were at the time (17 August) in financial meltdown.

Don't forget, Ellstone fucked up the development at the Park End, and then, it seems to me, lied!

Sounds like as well, Ross is in touch with an investor or potential buyer. Ross might not be the pantomine villain we thought he was.
Anthony Manning
11   Posted 18/11/2011 at 22:02:35

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Why would the BU want to shit-stir? They have worked there balls off all summer trying to become a respectable voice, attracting the attention of the BBC, Sky, national newspapers etc at there meetings, to make any story up would undermine all that, because of that reason I believe the e.mails are true. COYB.
Charlie Percival
12   Posted 18/11/2011 at 22:19:52

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Lyndon, being the Webmaster of this website, it is your duty to have a system in place to prevent such events. Of course it's great we can all post freely, but if you're blaming the end users, that is completely unacceptable. The problem needs starting at source.

You have a great website and it wouldnt takemuch for you to add a procedure where all posts have to be vetted/validated before going into the public eye. Yes it will cause more work, but you have to make sacrifices. If you like I'll do it for you!
Paddy James
13   Posted 18/11/2011 at 22:29:42

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I don't understand the editorial line here. What is the difference between publishing the leaking of a private conversation in the form of emails and publishing the leaking of a private conversation in the form of secretly taping the meeting by the Blue Union? (taking aside the potential defamation in the leaked e.mails...)
Ste Traverse
14   Posted 18/11/2011 at 22:55:23

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I don't know why a few beauts are, again, attacking the Blue Union when it's obvious these e.mails have come from inside the club.
Kevin Tully
15   Posted 18/11/2011 at 23:23:17

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Alan #4,

Excellent question, do we pissed off how information is obtained?

If something I deeply care about is being compromised, do I care about the means the whistle blower has obtained or published said information?

Absolutely not.
Gavin Ramejkis
16   Posted 18/11/2011 at 23:41:00

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The Guardian appears to have some form of response from Ian Ross
Mick Gallagher
17   Posted 19/11/2011 at 00:06:38

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Brain #9 why blame the lads at Blue Union any proof or just to slag them off. See you at the march tomorrow
James Flynn
18   Posted 19/11/2011 at 03:21:53

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For me (with respecting Lyndon etal have more to consider than us), that stuff was fun to read. The usual inter-office e-mail slagging. Good stuff.

Some of it illustrating how poor Club leadership is. We already knew that, though, didn't we.

An unexpected but nice change from "Moyes Out!", "4-4-2", "Parking the Bus', etc.

By-the by, someone tell me why the anti-BU. I'm not getting that.
Victor Chang
19   Posted 19/11/2011 at 03:34:02

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Charlie@12 if such systems were in place we'd never know anything apart from the repetitive, brain-washing party lines coming officially from the club. although inevitably there will be a lot of bullshit, there'll be a hell of a lot more truth than the crap spouted by Kenwright, and then it can be investigated and hopefully in the end the truth will out.
Thomas Williams
20   Posted 19/11/2011 at 04:14:40

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It would appear as if someone on the inside has had enough of the current regime as well.

This may well be the turning point for this regime as they can't keep up the smoke and mirrors forever, eventually they will be exposed.

The key point to me was the reference to the Echo, if ever anyone was in doubt about that paper, then there it is.

My personal opinion is BK is not the die in the wool blue he makes out to be, as no Evertonian I know would sit back and let the club fail like he has.
Eric Myles
21   Posted 19/11/2011 at 05:36:48

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Brian #9: "I wouldn't be surprised if this e.mail debacle is shit-stirring by the Blue Union."

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a false flag operation by the club to cast aspertions on BU the day before the protest.

Quote from Elstone "Not for the first time in the recent past certain individuals claiming to be Evertonians have made attempts to undermine the people of Everton Football Club by actions almost every one of us would find wholly unacceptable."

He knows how gullible the fan base are, it's just another step in the PR machine process, mythical nvestors, major signing, discredit opposition all just days before the protest.

Straight out of the Dr Goebbels playbook.
Brian Lawlor
22   Posted 19/11/2011 at 06:28:02

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Ste - you like the use of that word 'beaut', don't ya? Where you from? Widnes? Is anyone who has a different opinion to you, a beaut? You've never got much to contribute, have you, lad?

It's all about opinions. No-one on here has any proof that the e.mails are real. I merely pointed out that it's feasible it could be spin from the Blue Union. I mean why did NSNO publish an article saying Ross had been suspended then remove it?

Let's be honest, a large number of Evertonians would be happy to see him out of the club and he was very critical of the Blue Union. The e.mails could turn out to be real but a number of different people have motives here.

Anthony #11 - in my opinion, the Blue Union are not "respectable". Publishing the meeting transcript, rolling out a clown to march, claiming there were 1,000s at the march, claiming to be the voice of the fans, rolling out Howard Kendall and the FA Cup in a blatant attempt to swell numbers and comparing us to Spurs. In my opinion, they are not respectable and they'll struggle to get more support than the few hundred they've got.

Mick ? you wont see me at the march. I'll be at the pub until kick-off, then I'm walking up with all my fellow Scouse blue mates and get behind the blues at the match.
Tom Hughes
23   Posted 19/11/2011 at 07:54:08

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I'm not sure what it's got to do with anything but the BU is made up of scousers.

Your inference of foul play on the part of these scouse blues is especially laughable when compared to the endless lies and propaganda that has nurtured your misplaced loyalty. You've been had off mate, and I find your continued refusal to accept that to be distinctly unscouse.....

Our club is in shit street and our board has contributed and delivered nothing in over 10yrs..... to the point where we can no longer buy new players and have the smallest squad in the league. Be my guest and try to assert ANY blame to BU.

Get your head of the sand and be the real scouser you claim to be.....
Paul Gladwell
24   Posted 19/11/2011 at 08:40:00

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The clock is ticking on these clowns, we have that coward O,Keefe in the Echo at it today, it will be interesting to see how this paper digs itself out of a hole if the shit really does hit the fan.
The sad thing about all this is that the only people who have come out in the press to speak sense and offer some criticism to the board have been Kopites like Brian Reade who has qoute again today and yet to the local press anyone appose to the board are hit with these snide digs Reade is referring too, the problem with many blues is that they are just too obsessed with kopites and all that bollocks of kopite behaviour talk.
Howard Don
25   Posted 19/11/2011 at 09:22:04

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Stating the obvious I know, but some times you just have to pare things down to the basics. It's all just a bit too coincidental for me - the eve of latest BU march to highlight incompetent management of EFC. Shock, horror - email scandal breaks showing club to be in meltdown, internal rows etc. etc. Whether the emails are true or not, the point here is this. Evidence points to the club being dragged into the gutter once more by the very people who's stated aim is its salvation. Could be just coincidence, could even be someone trying to discredit BU (hell of a scam if they are) I really hope it is. But if it's not then well done BU spectacular OG I'd say.
Steve Guy
26   Posted 19/11/2011 at 09:33:13

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In my work environment, I have seen too many e-mails end up where they shouldn't with varying degrees of fallout. My team have a clear guidance from me to always assume the mail they send will end up being seen by not just the intended recipient and to match the content with this in mind. If in doubt to ask.

Leaking e-mails outside an organisation is a sackable offence in most organisations and we've all seen the impact of these viral ones. If Ian Ross has been suspended as was suggested above, then I think this is one case where there's no smoke without fire; although it's more likely that he's carrying the can; no doubt as Minister for Truth, he was also responsible for process and procedures around this area. Given the mails content, if true, it would seem he and Elstone didn't get on and the latter's revenge has been served up cold.

In the case of the leaked mails appearing on TW, I was confused that the contributor and / or TW didn't put the mails into context, but having said that I don't think TW should be beating itself up about it.

As they said in the X-Files, " The Truth is out there"
Charlie Percival
27   Posted 19/11/2011 at 09:45:41

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Victor (19).

IM ALL FOR THE EMAIL and knowing the dirt going on in our club. I knew all this anyway without the email. Hope all these Kenwright bumboys who always use to slag me off wake up now.

I was only saying that because Lyndon had a bee in his bonnet about it. Unfortunately the truth sometimes hurts.

Ill see yu at the protest later.

In the Blue Union I Trust
Graham Fylde
28   Posted 19/11/2011 at 09:51:33

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Echo reporting that Ross is to move to a new role at EFC. Apparently it was agreed months ago and has nothing to do with emailgate - although nobody knows what the role is yet!
Tom Hughes
29   Posted 19/11/2011 at 09:49:49

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All the evidence points to our club going down the drain..... and has done for years. Nothing whatsoever to do with BU/KEIOC/GFE or anyone else You'd like to blame for this club's serial mistakes!
John Keating
30   Posted 19/11/2011 at 10:02:07

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The Echo is a bloody disgrace in their treatment to those supporters who wish for change.
O'Keefe reckons he more or less should ignore the " few thousand" supporters who don't follow the official line.
Not only is the reporting in the Echo and Post totally imbalanced it is now time to accept that those supporters wanting change will never be given a fair hearing.
One choice guys DO NOT buy this rag piece of shit !
Eric Myles
31   Posted 19/11/2011 at 10:59:24

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Graham #28, that struck me as most amusing, we decided months ago that Ian Ross would be moved to another job but (even today) we don't know what it is yet!!

You couldn't make this stuff up!!
Eugene Ruane
32   Posted 19/11/2011 at 11:10:40

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Fairly sure 'bumboys' should be hyphenated.
Andy Codling
33   Posted 19/11/2011 at 11:33:22

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When did everything Everton related become boring and tedious
Howard Don
34   Posted 19/11/2011 at 11:26:00

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Tom (30) ? How on earth you deduce I'm "blaming BU/KEIOC/GFE or anyone else for the club's mistakes" from what I said in my post is a hell of a leap in logic. I'm not without sympathy for the aims of BU, (neither am I totally critical of what BK has done for the club), and of course the need for something to change is self-evident. My point was solely about tactics.

I didn't like the leaked transcript after BU's meeting with BK if it's true that the meeting was agreed beforehand to be confidential. Neither do I like this latest piece of damaging publicity for the club, wherever it originated from. I see both as having only negative effects on morale right through the organisation and support base. Counter productive and damaging to the Club in every way. That was my one and only point.
David Hallwood
35   Posted 19/11/2011 at 11:52:46

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Gents, I read the post with the emails, very briefly on Thursday night, and they looked suspicious, but I wanted to re-read them when I had a bit more time but the post has disappeared; has anyone got an internal link to the post?
Tom Hughes
36   Posted 19/11/2011 at 11:42:00

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The point is regarding the whole state of the club. You have no proof that BU are to blame for the leaks, yet you accuse them in an instant despite this?

Meanwhile, the club's ponderous state is well documented proof that our current predicament is entirely the responsibility of those in charge... who incidentally you are "not entirely critical" of?

I'd suggest you're being extremely selective in your criticism....
What about the negative effects of running the club into the ground, missed opportunities, unviable and wasteful stadium project, repeated failures to deliver, multiple lies, disaffected Shareholders due to no AGM's........ etc!

Honestly, can anything BU do be more counter-productive and damaging than what this lot have done already?
Ciarán McGlone
37   Posted 19/11/2011 at 12:28:16

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I don't see what the big deal is here. We all knew there was a sustained PR offensive against the Blue Union. And there's hardly anything startling in those mails.
Howard Don
38   Posted 19/11/2011 at 13:18:45

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Tom (39) Your ranging all over the place when this thread is specifically about the email fiasco and that's what I was responding to. I'm not being selective in my criticism at all, I'm staying on the subject of the thread.

It's very simple, I think the timing of the leak is suspicious; that's not an accusation merely a statement of how I see it. (If you read my post properly, you'll see I said it could be co-incidental ? I just doubt it).

My main point again, relative to the thread, in case you still haven't got it, is:? I don't believe this kind of thing ? whoever is responsible for and whatever its motivation ? is in any way productive or beneficial to the club.

If you want to stay relevant and convince me otherwise then fine, but stay on the subject or start a new one.
Phil Martin
39   Posted 19/11/2011 at 14:28:17

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1) These emails don't damage the club directly. They damage the reputation of the people they concern (i.e. Ross, Kenwright, Elstone).

2) In any form of industry or company in the real world. There is a common obvious rule that you dont put in an email anything which you wouldnt say in public or publish in a newspaper. Every email is trackable, and therefore not secret from the moment you hit 'send'. A Director of Communication should know this more than anyone.

This email along with the "leaked" transcript from Kenwright earlier -only serve as evidence to the worst suspected fears many concerned fans have had for years. Everton FC in the hands of the current leadership is in big trouble.
Thomas Williams
40   Posted 20/11/2011 at 01:22:14

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For those that continue to blindly follow BK and cohorts, how much damaging evidence do you need to awaken from your insomnia?

This is not only a football problem, either ? the failure to see what is in front of your eyes in politics is why the country is in a mess as well.

Maybe it is your own ego that is stopping you accepting the evidence?

I still hear the line, "BK saved us from Johnson", really? Johnson was 10 times better than the current regime will ever be.

We bought top players; we also won something... maybe Johnson is why your ego won't allow you to hold up your hands and admit you made a mistake about him, and an even bigger one accepting BK.

So, for me, what is your stance? What is good for your ego or Everton?

If you love Everton ? ban the Echo.
Eugene Ruane
41   Posted 20/11/2011 at 15:12:10

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Gavin (16) just read that piece.

Loved this..

"Although Ross has not denied that the emails are authentic, he has privately claimed that some of them were altered before reaching cyberspace. Everton, who have launched an investigation, have refused to comment".

'Privately claimed'!?

Not very private if it's being reported in the Guardian.

Seems Mr pig-ignorant isn't averse to a leak when it suits him.

The 'private' claim certainly contains enough murkying of the water for the gullible to be giving it "See! It was all made up by the BU lad!".

By the way (on the subject of leaks) in my opinion, Private Eye Magazine's 'Street Of Shame' is the only place one can actually find out what REALLY goes on with (and in) British newspapers.

Most of their information, I have no doubt, comes from leaked emails memos etc.

Entirely justified I believe, as the papers they're leaked from are not only bullshitting, but often claim some sort of moral superiority while doing so (see every edition of The Mail....ever!).

Basically, the leaks get us MUCH closer to the truth (nb: which we are ALL entitled to).

Seems to me however (especially reading some of the anti-BU bollocks) that many are not too bothered about getting at the truth, preferring their own mixed up version of it.

Do I know this?

Well no, but I know the lie-filled NOTW sold in it's millions and Private Eye sells in the thousands.

Go figure!
Jay Harris
42   Posted 20/11/2011 at 15:51:50

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Didn't Phil Green describe Everton as a "fucking circus"?

Eugene Ruane
43   Posted 20/11/2011 at 16:06:00

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Jay (42) - That was invented by the BU probably.

I think he said "A fantastically run club with a very honest chairman".

I've no evidence suits me to think that.
Jay Harris
44   Posted 20/11/2011 at 18:50:36

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Well, if everything is invented by the BU, we have a very creative bunch of Evertonians ? unlike our wastrel chairman and his "Friends of Everton".
Eric Myles
45   Posted 22/11/2011 at 06:20:49

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Were those 'leaked emails' only posted on Toffeeweb or were they posted on other Everton fansites too?

I saw them reported on NSNO but with a link back to Toffeeweb so was wondering how widespread they actually are?

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