Statistics show Baines as Europe's most creative player

I think Cahill is Moyes's best signing so far but hopefully Baines can carry on his form at Everton. No doubt whatsoever that he's the most improved signing Moyes has made. Excellent player.

Remember all that shite about him being "too small to be a fullback"?

As I recall it took him a few games (rather than seasons) after his transfer to dislodge Lescott but since then he's never looked back.

When he played he looked pretty poor and that's why Valente was chosen ahead of him.

Nuno - 2007-08 - 9, 2008-09 - 2
Baines - 2007-08 - 22, 2008-09 - 31

Christ on a bike!

Hold on, I've just realised that Leighton Baines's initials are the same as his position abbreviation: LB! Maybe that's the secret of his success? A quick check of our squad reveals that Bainesy is unique in this respect. Unless Ross Barkely's natural position turns out to be right back (RB), which would surprise me - although not as much as if Fellaini's first name turned out to be Colin and he consequently took the number 9 shirt (CF).

There's always Moyes, I suppose. DM = Dour Manager?

Will you stop using facts to ruin ill-informed arguments. Quite frankly it is not fair and is taking all the fun out of proceedings.

Baines has gone on to be one of the best players in the world in his position. Cahill never got close to that even at his peak.

Arteta
Cahill
Neville
Lescott

When Baines joined Lescott was playing left back great and making a decent fist of attacking as well considering the size of the fella. It was part of that phase when above anything else we were tight at the back, fairly conservative and evolving.

For me it was never a long term thing even though Lescott made his England debut there. Massive ask making your international debut playing out of position. He got exposed in a european game at Goodison as well when he was identified as a weak link. Difficult for a fella Lescotts size on the turn in the full back position like that, and he got isolated and exposed.

In the end Lescott was right to say he needed to be playing centre half. It was compromising him and he wouldnt have been able to fulfill his potential there. The form he showed with Jags for us more than justified it.

This coincided with Baines joining us. I think, not unusually for a footballer making a step up, it took Baines a season to get accustomed to things, adapt and start progressing. But the signs were there that he was a player, definitely. I remember a quote from Moyes saying something along the lines of that if Baines was honest with himself it took him a while to realise what was required to play for us and progress and get the best out of himself.

People want things immediately. The fella next to me wanted Baines and Fellaini gone after about 3 months!! When we signed Fellaini, based on his age I was prepared to give him 18 months just to progress and adapt. Baines needed about a season. It happens. A lot.

After he adapted Lescott moved inside, Baines was first choice, the left side combination play with Piennar began developing and became a feature of our play. He has improved season on season.

It took the nation about 3/4 seasons to get onto it.

"A few seasons............a massive waste of money."

Oh dear.

I expect Fellaini to go at the end of the season but Baines to stay. I wonder to what extent Oviedo was bought to replace Baines? Only DM knows that. If he was then it would explain why he hasn't had a sniff at left midfield, despite showing real promise.

Re: "Dithered.."

Bollocks!!

Clearly it was a case of 'development,' with Baines.

Both the gaffer & the lad himself have acknowledged that it took him some time to find his game.

You could argue that Cahill was his other as well, hopefully Baines can keep up this form. Best LB in the PL at least, and has been for a while.

To offer an analogy: do you think Moyes is currently "developing" Vellios or Barkely? I don't. I just think he looks at who he thinks is playing best, and will fit into his team shape and strategy, and picks them. That's completely fair enough, but it doesn't mean he is "developing" the lads who miss out.

At the time Lescott was playing great at leftback and Moyes threw down the challenge to Baines to get in the team ahead of him. Back then Baines, whilst talented, looked meek and low on self confidence. Instead of having the wrath of the Goodison crowd on his back straight away, Moyes brought in a player hungry to nail down a starting spot, one who had improved his game and attitude to get into the team. He has since progressed immeasurably under Moyes and is now one of the best in the league.

Similarly for Lescott, he started him off at left back before moving him into the middle. As a result, he had some of the best composure of any of our recent centrebacks. When he came into the middle he was shorn of those early settling in mistakes that you can make at left back but are crucially punished at centreback.

He then progressed on to join the Champions and make up half of Englands new first choice central defensive partnership (I wonder which other player developed under Moyes is the other half? To go with that outstanding leftback that's close to displacing Ashley Cole)

Why can't people see the reason behind this behaviour when he does it all of the time?

Coleman: early debut, out on loan – played out of position; surprising first team regular, playing really well.

Everyone complained at every step of this process but Coleman may not be the player he is now had he been in the first team straight from his debut to now. There would have been massive lulls in form and crucial mistakes in big games (I dread to think what some on here would have done to him, his one mistake this season got him a roasting). Instead now we have a confident player who has made the majority of his mistakes either with Tony Hibbert behind him or in the colours of Blackpool, and has increased his skills of ball retention and crossing thanks to his time playing right mid.

Barkley: early debut, out on loan – played out of position... sound familiar?

Here's an idea: let's just lob every young lad from the academy we've ever seen play for ten minutes or that the media has bigged up straight into the first team and see how they fend for themselves... Or we could leave it to the manager who developed Baines, Lescott and Coleman (along with the countless others) into the players they are today... I know which option I'd take.

Watching him legging it back into position makes me wonder if he would be even better left on the wing?

If he goes, he's a bigger loss than Fellaini for me. Easily worth £20m in today's market.

I'd dispute that Moyes deserves a bouquet or flowers for bringing Baines in, though. When his Wigan contract was running down and it was clear he was going to move on, there were a fair few teams interested in him. Again, like Jags, he's been an England U21 regular and was widely known to be an extremely promising player. Given that, and the fact that LB is a Scouser, he was not doing much more than putting two and two together to bring him to Goodison. Mr A N Other of Anywhereville would have done the same.

So, yes, DM did develop Lescott, Cahill, Arteta and Coleman. Jagielka and, to a greater extent, Baines kind of developed themselves. (In other words, they are as good as they were generally expected to be.) Of the current crop, Duffy, Barkely and Vellios have not (so far) been successfully developed.

Jeez, how well balanced am I?

If Baines's talent was so obvious then it would of been the easiest thing in the world for Man Utd or Arsenal to pick him up. As it was, no-one knew he would turn into the player he did today. His progression has been remarkable.

This is not a case like Bale where everyone knew what a talent he was, he hadn't been in the Premier League and it cost Tottenham big money to get him. Baines had been in the Premier League, everyone knew about him, yet they didn't go for him; Moyes did and at a good price, no-one knew back then what he would go on to become. Surely Moyes deserves more credit for this than putting a scouse 2 and 2 together?

Jagielka similarly was known to all but was actually considered a bit of a utility player – jack of all trades, master of none – who wouldn't be good enough to make it in the Prem. Once agian Moyes did not dither and turned him into one of the country's top CBs. You say anyone could of done it, but why didn't they? All the top clubs knew about these players, why didn't they take the chance? What would Wenger have given for Jagielka and Lescott?

At the time, Baines wasn't good enough for a team seriously challenging for trophies - they need players who are already achieving their potential - so that rules out the four or five teams above us. Also, do you not think it's a lot to do with having a good mentality? I do. Jags and Baines are plainly (as they say in the workplace) "self-starters", people who generate their own high standards of performance and who want to raise the bar. They don't need telling. Young Ross, on the other hand, is more of a challenge.

Yeah, I recall the opinion of Jags at the time, which is why I said he was a pretty good signing. Moyes took a chance, but given PJ's track record and strong personality it wasn't a massive chance – in the way that Cahill was, for example, because exactly no one thought TC would be a Premier League star.

I love Baines. He might just be my favourite Everton player of all time!

You say that Lescott (30), Cahill (33), Arteta(30), Jagielka (30), Baines (28) and Coleman (24) have developed into quality PL players but Moyes has failed to develop Duffy (21), Velios (21), and Barkley (19) in the same way.

You see what I did there?

However, if you could stop raiding chicken coops for a minute and look at what I actually said, you would realise that I do not accept that Moyes "developed" Jagielka or Baines. He just played them.

Oh, and by the way, your tail is on fire.

Despite getting lots of stick for ruining players I actually think on the whole Moyes does a great job with the players he brings in and I prefer to leave any development in his professional hands instead of continually criticising him. After all, he sees players day in day out and knows who his best options are.

This is also true of the young players – it would be nice to see them get more chances but I trust his way of doing things when bringing them on. In relation to other clubs I think we promote as many if not more youth players into our first team.

Seriously, though, my position is clear. You are free to disagree. Baines has not been developed, he's been played. If you have a left footed centre back playing at left back then you/anyone will probably realise that's a short term solution. So you (and your scouts) look around and you sign a very promising England U21 left back from Wigan. You start to play him when the Lescott at left back thing runs out of steam. He gets more game time experience and improves, chiefly due to his own high standards.

Now as far as I am concerned, Ronnie Moore at Tranmere would have done exactly the same as Moyes did. It's not genius. Minky McMonkey probably does it for the Chester Zoo Primates XI. It's just common sense.

If you accept my point how can you be so sure Moyes has not had a role in the development of Baines as you keep pointing out.

I tried to put that in my most straight forward non patronising manner!

err... Bale was seen as a massive waste of money at Spurs after that 20 odd game losing streak with him in the team, I suppose in the end he done ok though.

Baines is a truly fantastic player and, though I doubt he will get it, would be a deserving captain of EFC, definitely one of the best signings by Moyes

Playing players out of their natural position is apparently good for them. I'm sure Seamus Coleman would have thanked Moyes for playing him at left back in Portugal and Jags will also thank the manager for the spell he played him in midfield.

I'm sure Vellios, Duffy and Barkley will be (privately)thanking the manager for all the "development" they're receiving by not ever getting the chance to play top level football.

I think Moyes has a very good talent for signing players with potential at a good price. I'm not convinced that he does anything significant to develop them. I suspect that defenders will learn quite well, but strikers and creative types probably come in with what they have.

Vellios's comments regarding his interactions with Duncan Ferguson were eye opening. You got the distinct impression that before DF joined the coaching team, he hadn't really been given much in the way of coaching from someone who understands the strikers game.

Hopefully, Vellios's eyes. Occur to you Dunc is giving him the repeated, swift kicks in his ass he needs? Managers/coaches can only help improve a player if the player, Vellios or any, is determined to improve.

Good stuff.

A manager might, should, put in a player in an atmosphere where improvement is expected and there to be had. But it's up to the player. Baines clearly was up for it.

Undoubtedly most of it rests with the player but in Baines's case Moyes has definitely assisted in his progression.

Firstly the partnership with Pienaar has undoubtedly assisted in his development, a player bought not once by Moyes but twice.

Secondly and more importantly though has been Moyes role in convincing Baines how good a player he could be. Leighton is a naturally shy and reserved type who suffered from a lack of belief in his own ability. The whole World Cup debacle which led to a player (Warnock) who is not fit to lace his boots being selected above him was an example of this.

There is no player in our team who is as consistently praised in public as Leighton. Just Google 'Moyes Baines' for the evidence. I think this is Moyes understanding that the player needs this sort of reassurance. I know a lot don't like to give Moyes any credit but in this case I think he has managed the player really well.

Fergie does it all the time, Phil Jones future centreback is playing midfield and right back. Rafael tarted playing right mid before being moved back. Welbeck has had stints out wide, just like Walcott and Henry did at Arsenal. Other managers do this with young players, surely you can see the logic behind this rather than just taking two ridiculous examples.

Some of these arguments are ridiculous. If any other manager improved players like Moyes does, then he'd be heralded a genius, yet when Moyes does it, it's not down to him somehow, it's down to the players. Who has in your opinion then Wayne and Kev developed players in the Premier League? Anyone ever bought a defender for £5 million then sold him for £26 million?

Vellios, Duffy, Barkley? 'not ever getting the chance to play top level football' - I'm not sure of their age but I'm fairly certain that all 3 have played in the premier league whilst teenagers for Everton. Duffy has even played European football. They should be grateful they're even getting a look in. What other top clubs regularly plays teenagers in their first team? If they were good enough they'd break through as Rodwell did, Vaughan did, Anichebe did, Gosling was doing... most of these players aren't event that good yet still made appearances for the first team.

Duffy Vellios and Barkley will all get their time but it is not yet. Everyone wants us to be a top club but then slams Moyes for not doing something that no other top clubs are doing. Hypocritical clutching at straws. Some people really will go to any level to have a pop, I can't believe that for all his genuine faults you won't even credit Moyes for the players' improvement at Everton.

Sorry but have to disagree with you. For me, Baines is by far the most talented and consistent player we have and has everything you could want from an attacking full back.

He has a lovely way of caressing the ball which he uses to devastating affect at free kicks, has the ability to always create space even in the tightest of spaces, has pace to burn and is a real team player.

Lescott was in outstanding form at left back when Baines came to Everton and that I feel was the reason for Baines's slow start at EFC, but once he got the opportunity he proved how good he was and I would be truly gutted if we sold him.