Everton beaten by another Palace smash-and-grab raid

There are a lack of leaders and players willing to take a risk on the ball this season, no midfielder takes responsibility. We badly miss characters like Tim Cahill and Arteta.

I looked at Palace’s Bolasie and thought to myself "Where’s our man who does that, who runs powerfully with the ball with no fear?" There was nobody willing to do it.

We don’t defend as a team, the very best teams defend high up the pitch and press the opposition’s defences and harry them into mistakes, much like Palace did to us today AGAIN.

We are to slow too pedestrian like in our work when we haven’t got the ball, we allow our opponents too much time and space.

Personally I’m sick of false dawns at Everton.

1) Team selection was a concern. Coleman was an enforced absence but a big loss. RM sees things from close quarters so it’s either down to lack of depth (i.e. the quality dips dramatically when we go much beyond the first XI) or unnecessary rotation. Not sure why Mirallas & Naismith were benched. Too knackered to start? Really? Why not keep the same team and sub them as they tired?

2) Everything looked OK for the first half-an-hour but (sorry to say this) Warnock did a job on Martinez in the second half. They pressed & hassled us far more and therefore had a Plan B – we didn’t. For us, it was the same pretty passing with a sad lack of penetration today.

One indisputable fact is that we are leaking goals at an alarming rate: individual errors, slow starts, not knowing how to close out a game when winning or whatever.

Some people said that conceding 6 against Chelsea (I’m still embarrassed by that) was against this season’s champions. But today was against a bottom side (well not any more).

I just want EFC to win, whatever it takes, and regardless of who manages and who plays.

Conceding 11 goals in 3 home games! I think we should be shouting for Fortress Goodison before School of Science. Let’s get the basics right and have something to build on as a priority.

As for the defence, he may have been short on options with Coleman being out, but we have had 2 games with Stones/Jags at centre back, 2 wins from 2, 1 goal conceded. Distin/Jags, 0 wins from 4, 13 goals conceded. They should have been asking members of the crowd to play before putting Jags and Distin back together.

Martinez’s mistakes both before and during games have been all too common so far this season.

What gets me is after such games Roberto spouts the same garbage but doesn’t seem to learn from our defensive problems. Maybe he doesn’t see us has having any problems. He is so rapped up with attacking at any cost.

And this slow build up and passing back bollocks doesn’t have you on the edge of your seat for the right reason. And I can’t see it getting any better. How can a defence go from being one of the best in the Premier League to the worst?

One thing we all knew about Roberto was his defences are shit and we are experiencing it for the first time. At the moment, it’s not 4th from the top were aiming for — more like 4th from the bottom. Things will even themselves out? Don’t bank on it. I can see a long hard struggle this season.

Is that why we lose so many Derby matches?

We only look good with loads of time on the ball but press and harry us and where is our plan B??

The writing was on the wall at the end of last season.

3 at home to Palace and City.

2 own goals at Southampton in a must win match.

4 at Anfield and 4 at Arsenal in the FA Cup Quarter Final.

The thing is last season Martinez was working on a relatively risk free and no lose situation.

Lukaku was here on loan as was Barry and Deulofeu.

There was less expectancy on them all to deliver but now after considerable cash spent and permanent deals signed, plus the high expectations this season after 21 wins and the top 4 battle, the pressure is really on all concerned to deliver.

At the minute we are failing dismally.

I dread next week.

I am going to disappear for a few hours and get the score up at 3pm next Saturday.

Wake up, Roberto — we certainly do!

Bar Coleman, all our defence was out there today... and as for Osman — why did he start???!?!

Howard is a liability with no real competition but the manager set the tone with his selection. Eleven goals conceeded in 3 home Premier games is a disaster but no critism comes to Martinez.

Our right hand side has been a joke all season. Martinez needs to start earning his money by working on our issues before it’s too late.

The passing game is nit all its cracked up to be.

Its only good if you actually move the balk about with a pace and purpose but too often there's no urgency or drive to our play and good Lord, what the hell do we train with all week because we just simply switch off when we haven't git the ball.

Borussia Dortmund are a master of bring Greg at high tempo pressing and in their best days it was Barcelona's stock and trade, lose the ball then you go hunting in packs towin it bback and never let your opponents have a seconds peace.

The space we afford teams is ridiculous.

Oh well that's what supporting us does to you!

The intro back into the team of Distin was also a factor in the further weakness of the defensive strategy after conceding only one goal in the past two games without him.

The biggest mistake of the day though was to put Naismith on the bench; the lad is the only player who can raise the tempo and who has the ability to split the defence up.

I’m behind the manager but he has shown today some serious naivety!

Certainly there are issues. Ball retention under pressure being one and a defensive system that seems to give up multiple chances every match.

I'm a little calmer than I was 3 hours ago and prepared to sit back and watch for another month or so. Hopefully things improve or we will soon lose touch with CL spaces.

I wouldn't worry though, he will stick with his favourites at Anfield on Saturday and if plan A doesn't work then we can always just shut the curtains, close the windows and go to bed early next Saturday night.

Built by Shanks,
Watched by Planks,
Ruined by Yanks,
Laughed at by Mancs,
Thanks.

One thing that this game highlighted and to be fair, think we all knew, is that the one outfield position where we lack quality cover is right back. Don't get me wrong, Stones will be a great player but the difference between what he gives the team at right back and what Coleman gives the team at right back is massive. Even more so in the case of Hibbo! I think our success this season could be very much reliant on a fit Seamus.

RE rotating the front three: Atsu, Osman and Eto are hardly poor players or replacements for the three absentees. They haven't seen any game time this season and should have been absolutely dying to impress. I didn't mind Roberto fielding this team, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Admittedly the fact that none of them had started a league game until today wasn't ideal, I grant you.

p.s. I've a feeling we'll win the derby!

Jack that wants bottling up that and selling on lad..cracker!

Why are we resting players? Three matches in seven days, well poor them! The team was building confidence after two wins and back to square one. The Europa league is not our bread and butter, play the reserves for all I care. The result today sums up our approach to defending under the manager, he needs help. Sadly the team have lost the art of defending we once had and lets hope it comes back very soon.

We have Liverpool and United Away back to back one before October 18th when we host Aston Villa, another game which under the circumstances will be far from easy.

I'm dreading the derby especially if Sturridge is fit, I'll be having nightmares this week picturing Jags and Distin backing off then Howard picking the ball out of the net, sickening!

When our confidence is already fragile some of that made no sense.

I'm all for being positive to affect change, which he was, but making wholesale changes to the starting line up and then proceeding to bring on attackers for defenders when it was going wrong, was asking for trouble in my opinion and the upshot will be 'fear, uncertainty and doubt' for the coming games when we need 'business as usual'.

Last three homes games of last season, one win, two defeats and 6 goals conceded. So our last 6 home league games have yielded one win, one draw and four defeats with 17 goals leaked.

And there are people on this site who were talking about challenging the top four. Those people who aren't yet worried need to wake up.

The only things we will finish anywhere near the top of this seasonat are:
Worst defensive record
Most one-dimensional team
Most sideways and backwards passes
Longest time to get the ball into the opposition penalty area

I thought getting the West brom result was the start of a new chapter, but losing to CP again, their record against us is amazing. The only plus side is no other club really firing I am discounting Chelski, so we are not out of it by any means.

But what would count as a good season, I would love to see us win the Europa league, and a top 6 finish.

Still, our corners are dreadful, West Brom eeked out a win at Spurs thanks to scoring from a corner, when do we ever look like a threat from a corner?

There's just no variety to our play.

As for solving the defence??

Try pressing teams high up the pitch and defending from the front.

DEFENDING AS A TEAM!!

Then for their second, a 40 yard cross comes sailing into the box, which Howard completely mis-read, culminating in their second goal.

Now, Martinez may be wrong for rotating players, he may well be the worst defensive coach in all four divisions - but how the fuck are those two goals anything to do with his style of management?

Some very strange arguments being put forward as to why we lost today. I saw a goalie and a midfielder fuck up. Don't know what game you guys were watching.

I agree on the amount of backwards passing. It drives me nuts to see those backwards passes when there are openings forward to build play. The fact we're scoring when they get their act together makes me wonder if they just forgot their game plan whenever they do that. As a few mentioned, when we're hurried off the ball, they seem to lose the plot.

But I though RM rotated too heavily, it must mean hes gonna field a strong team in the league cup.

Roger, I fear so too. I do think the CP loss might make him reconsider.

Dennis, Roger, every one, Roberto is not going to change, just like Moyes was not going to change. We just have to hope he gets it right many more times than he gets it wrong ( hasn't happened yet though )

Our slow paced passing and plenty of possession, is just one step above an Exhibition Game This is not Figure Skating where points are given for style and artistic appreciation etc. It's supposed to be a high speed contact sport. Nor is it Ballroom dancing, slow, slow quick, quick, slow...we have to put some quick, quick into our slow, slow

This season how many times have some said, this was solely down to Roberto or that was solely down to Roberto, four? five?

Intensity Roberto, Intensity...sort it

There are some great posts on here, but Rm don't read them.

As for the Yank being a play boy that was good entertainment.

No way will I watch the Derby live next weekend. If we can concede 3 against palace then be prepared for another hammering at Afield.

COYB!

Defensive frailties happen, but he must shoulder blame and learn. Let's be patient and get behind the team.

Osman, Robles, Alcaraz and McGeady need to be shipped out. They will never make the grade.

Osma

Like everyone, gutted re yesterday. Soooo Everton.

Howard - I don't know any other keeper that is more error prone that gets away with it season after season. When he has an off day, its ugly. Also I'm not a fan of

Liked the look of Atsu though.

Team selection was poor and arrogant today, should have stayed with Stones and Jags in the middle. Also should have addressed the right and left back situation during the summer transfer window. The top 3 of Lukaku, Atsu, Eto'o had never played together and did what they could, but Everton underestimated Palace. Naismith should have played today with Lukaku and Eto'o and it would have been much more balanced with Atsu to play in the Capital One Cup.

The subs were also bizarre, the third goal came from right back where Stones was taken off in place of Mirallas/Naismith. Was McCarthy supposed to be playing there? Just ridiculous.

Wikipedia says Howard is Christian. Must be a personal thing then.

I watched the game live here in Australia and put myself through a repeat this morning. My initial reaction would have been to rant and rave about rotation, defence, tactics etc.

On reflection, after having time to calm down and watch it all again I feel there is one reason we lost. That reason is Tim Howard.

In Europe on Thursday and in the World Cup against Belguim Howard demonstrated that he is in the best group of keepers in the world at stopping shots. Against Palace yesterday and in too many other games he demonstrated that he is in the lower ranks when it comes to decision making.

The reality of the game for me was that Martinez was correct in his rotation and playing style he asked. We had 75% possession, far more shots, far more corners, etc etc. The problem is though Palace had ONE SHOT on Target from open play and scored 3 goals!! That has to be a record. Their first two goals was a penalty that Howard should never had conceded, but he had time to make a decision and the result was a mess. The second was a speculative punt that Howard again had time to think about and again stuffed it up. Watch the goal scorer (if you can put yourself through it again) he doesn't even see the ball when its hitting him, it bounces off him and into the net!!

Whats the solution? I heard Joe Hart is in his final season and hasn't signed a new contract, not sure how accurate that is, but I would be happy for him to get a massive signing on fee and be paid as much as our highest earner if it means that we carry on scoring at least 2 or more per game and stop conceding 3 or more per game.

I hate to say this, but, after 55 years as an Evertonian, I see a crisis looming. We simply have lost the ability to defend against even the most ordinary PL opposition and, if the problem is not addressed quickly, we can forget challenging for Europe again, and begin to think of ways to avoid relegation!

You do NOT change a winning team, and yesterday’s team selection showed no logic, and no desire to go for the jugular. Eto’o should play in the middle, and Lukaku proved last season he can devastating coming in from the right.

It also showed that RM treated Palace with disrespect, thinking they would roll over and die, and if course they didn’t want to play that game. As much as I love the man, he has to start listening to other’s opinions before it’s too late.

We still need top class goalkeeping cover, as Tim can’t do it all as we’ve seen. Thursday obviously took a lot out of him. Some great keepers have moved clubs since the World Cup. Why didn’t the manager move for one of them? The prices paid for some of the best in the world have been peanuts by Premier League standards.

A look at today’s league table makes depressing reading when we expected so much this season, and guess who’s up next? With our defence in its current state, anyone want to bet against a repeat of last season’s 4-0 debacle?

RM might want to turn a blind eye, but, with my years of experience, not only as a supporter, but as a qualified sports coach, I state, quite categorically, we are currently in BIG TROUBLE. Sort it out, NOW, Roberto, before it’s too late. Personally, the best I’m now hoping for is mid-table mediocrity.

There are some things that can be said about the players.

Too many old men and young, unproven kids in the squad. The team lacks "zing", looks knackered, can’t press? If you have five or six chaps approaching their mid thirties on the pitch,what do you expect?

A successful squad needs experience and youth, of course, but a winning squad needs a preponderance of players in their prime and, of course, they’re the ones who command the highest fees and wages.

No winning team that I can remember in the modern game has a GK who finds it impossible to have a consistently good season. But, if you have a limited amount of money, you address the areas of greatest concern and this year, it was the striker’s position which needed attention most urgently.

In my view, it’s a great pity we didn’t secure the Cardiff City GK, Marshall. I don’t want a bloke who has a worldy one day and a series of brain farts the next.

As ever, I believe, the root cause of virtually all of this, is our lack of serious dosh. We can’t ship out the oldies because we can’t afford to replace them. Each game will vary and we’ll end up winning more than we lose but true progress will remain as elusive as ever not because the manager (easy, easy target) is a fool but because his hands are tied as firmly as were those of OFM.

Do we always need 2 holding midfielders at home?

Barry and McCarthy are not having a great season so far and neither of them offer a world of creativity.
Don't get me wrong I like both often but do we always need both at the same time?'

I said all summer four things we needed to sort out and make a priority were...

A better quality keeper to put pressure on Howard or even take his place.

A big strong commanding fitter younger centre half.

A creative brain in the middle of the pitch, even more so with Barkley missing for so long...Lewis Holtby??? Obviously he went off to Hamburg.

Finally a quick strong running, athletic wide player to replace Deulofeu.
Yannick Bolasie??

We need to have a rethink in January and just hope that we hang around the top 10 , I keep my fingers crossed there is still money left to spend.

Also in the meantime perhaps we need to start working on a few various ways of playing.

The slow passing game won't be a success at the 100 mph cauldron of Anfield next week no matter how poorly they are playing across the park.

The same at the World Cup, the fact remains every shot he saved in that Belgium game was what you'd expect a professional goalkeeper to save, they were all weak shots right at him.

I have said for about 4 years but was regularly shouted down for criticizing him but he makes way way too many judgmental errors and comical decisions, for me he's like a poor man's David James.

Take that penalty decision yesterday, what the hell did he cone bursting out for when we had defenders to deal with it?
Why not just bark at Stones to smash it away?

The guys a comic book version.

In every game this season, and in many last, whenever we are on top of a team, we encourage the opposition to gain confidence by not being hungry to have that ball, not pressuring them, and giving the ball away. This seems to be the culture of the team. A very relaxed attitude, that is quickly picked up by the opposition. They come into the game more, and force more mistakes to be made by us, as they gain confidence.

If the make up of your team lacks intensity and desire, it is not something you can suddenly find, in the middle of a game. You have to have the attitude that the ball belongs to you, and it is a bit of an insult when the opposition has it. This attitude has to go right through the team, right through the game. We need to maintain the pressure beyond a fifteen minute or so period, till we get a goal, and then ease up.

Martinez has been brilliant in so many ways for the team and the club, since he came here. I like him a lot, and think he is potentially a great manager. But these problems have been there for some time , and it doesn’t look like they have been addressed. This, plus lack of new players, is worrying.

If so, there’s less hope than I thought for footy fans.

From MOTD it seems clear that the 3 goals conceded were all from individual blunders. Maybe for the penalty a combination of Howard and Stones. How do you stop individual blunders? Maybe being dropped from the team is a way of sharpening the mind.

Robles will surely play on Tuesday and has his chance to impress. I know he gets slated generally on here but after Tim's gaffes yesterday would he have done any worse? Suggestion of throwing Stanek in is probably a bit too soon although I have never seen him play.

I can understand totally the need for rotation with so many games this season, but I fear that, although we have made quality additions to the squad in midfield and forward positions, we have failed to address the need for defence and that includes the goalkeeping position too.

I have always maintained that it is of little use scoring goals at one end, if you are prone to leaking them at the other. Let's just hope that this is a temporary blip and will be sorted before it's too late.

Stones had an opportunity to clear the first goal but dithered. Stones and Jags too far apart for a speculative cross leaving their player free on the edge of the six-yard box. Similar stuff for the third after a mistake by Osman.

Stones is not a right back, he offers virtually nothing going forward and got a roasting from Bolasie in the second half yesterday to the extent he was subbed and replaced with McCarthy.

This is not a one-off now, 13 goals in 5 PL games is not good enough. Otherwise, it’s going to be a long season.

I remember being at Spurs about 4 years ago when he misjudged a cross and it landed on Crouch's head and ended up in a goal, carbon copy if yesterday's second Palace goal.

Martinez needs to start thinking of the future regarding certain players now; loyalty gets you nowhere in this game.

Frasier Forster.

Big commanding, and doesn't seem as prone to sheer moments of comical madness like Howard.

Paul Dark, a poor performance all round yesterday and you pick on two players who didn’t even take part. Doesn’t really make sense...

Palace / Martinez; fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

There was an article in the Sunday papers with Howard half of which revolved around his view that nothing surprises him in football - he's at that stage of his career where he's been there, seen it and done it all. This in turn gives him great confidence whenever he's on the pitch etc.

This probably helps explain why in some matches he's a world beater, and in others a liability - his confidence getting him in and out of trouble in equal measure.

I also thought it was a pretty arrogant thing to say to be honest, implying he has nothing left to learn - which he clearly has off the back of yesterday's performance. It probably explains why he thinks it's OK to grab opposition players by the throat (Costa) and 'head butt' Azpilicueta in front of Jonathan Moss after he's lucky to even be on the pitch for handling outside the area in the Chelsea game - another case of bad decision making, bad execution and rushes of blood to the head.

His World Cup experience will have compounded the problem, he has no effective competition for his place (Robles is not the answer....) and Martinez's first job is to bring him down to earth with a bump.

The silver lining is it will hopefully focus his mind for next weekend, and touch word we'll all be singing his praises again this time next week. There's a great keeper in there, he just needs bringing down a peg or two, hopefully yesterday will have done that and out his heroics in Brazil and against Wolfsburg last week into perspective.

Perhaps a lot of what you say about Howard is true, but in my opinion he's just never really been a truly top class keeper in the class of Southall, Nigel Martyn at his peak, Peter Schmeichel, David Seaman etc ect.

Howard is more in the Thomas Myhre class, at times looked really good but left you too many times tearing your hair out, (if you have any left supporting us)

Myhre could be great, pulling out unbelievable finger tip saves then much like Howard he could do something what wouldn't look out of place on You've Been Framed.

Your right though at Howard's age now and having played in the glamorous World Cup in Brazil, you wonder what is left for him and if he has that Sam's hunger he had when he first joined Everton in 2006 under Moyes with a massive point to prove.

You get the feeling he knows he's had his near misses with us losing semi finals and the 2009 Cup Final, perhaps it's become all a bit mundane for him now.

Fuckin hell don't want to think about Sam Allardyce's appetite haha

Tim Howard cost 3 million, so its hard to say he has not justified his price tag in the 7 years he has been with us. He has had some excellent games, and he has had some shocking games. What concerns me is not necessarily players making mistakes, it happens to even the best of the best. The concern I have is literally how the team fell apart after conceding. Not for the first time this season, as soon as we concede the team seems to roll over and die. Jags confidence is shot to pieces trying to fit in with Martinez ball playing style, so I don't see how he can succesfully lead this team anymore. Until some real leadership is displayed on the pitch, I can't see how the situation can improve.

Oh well, another dropped stitch in life's fair tapestry.

Trying to forecast the result of any game this season - ours included - seems to be a farce.

If his form continues then we can’t carry him, he is always an accident waiting to happen. He has been a good keeper but far from the best we have had. I would even put George Wood and Jim Arnold ahead of him – even Dai Davies, and that’s saying something. Not my favourite player by a long shot. Sometimes your time is just up.

This was a piss-poor result again. We had a perfect chance this weekend to move past the likes of Liverpool, Spurs and United..but stumbled as we often seem to when bigger moments come. I understand, but also do not understand, the resting of players. Unless we are not fully concentrating on the league this year, it seemed more sensible to rest them at Swansea, especially given what happened against Palace last season. Retrospect is a wonderful thing of course, but I can’t help but think dropping a superb Naismith and Mirallas was not the best idea. Unfortunately this is the kind of obstacle we will face this season, with Thursday football causing tiredness and cutting down on preparation time. It’s what I have argued will prevent any genuine top four challenge, which would be a shame given how fragile United and Lpool look.

It’s early days though, and these results happen in the early games in particular. This weekend has been a perfect example of that. Unfortunately, I think United and Liverpool will only get stronger, as they’ve gone through serious transition in terms of numbers. We haven’t, with largely the same squad as last season, and consequently it’s very disappointing to lose like this, and lose invaluable points in the process. Hopefully we overturn it all with the result we will crave next weekend, against a Liverpool side looking extremely fragile at the back, and with fragile confidence.

My concern isn't his desire it's because he looks like a man who's expects to have a good game because he's Tim Howard, rather than concentrating on the performance itself and literally taking his eye off the ball.

We know from last season (and the previous half dozen) that this group of players is capable of holding off just about any opposition. However, if they are in the wrong places, in the wrong formation or failing to keep up with good practices, they are vulnerable.

Martinez has brought a much better attitude to attacking midfield and forward play, but does not seem to have much idea about defensive play (and set pieces, come to that).

The best goalkeeper I have ever seen (even including Southall etc) was Peter Schmeichel. His attitude was that if the ball was in, or was going to be in, the penalty area, it was going to be his. Anyone in the way would be run over or crashed through, and if an opponent was entering the area with the ball under control, Schmeichel was running at him, arms outstretched and fearless. He didn't excel at shot stopping (though the fearlessness meant he was pretty good), but he did intimidation with the best.

Howard, on the other hand seems to get agoraphobia outside the goal area, and frequently won't even leave the goal line. This means that opposing forwards know they won't be clattered or smashed out of the way, so they are willing to take those personal risks which mean they will sometimes get shots off. And by failing to approach players, the angle for shooting is that much wider. Yes, there is a risk of being lobbed, but there are very very few successful lobs and chips made by moving players (essentially you need to be a Rooney or van Persie to pull that one off, and you'll still miss most of the time).

Everton needs to appoint a defensive coach who can take appropriate responsibility for ensuring a coherent, co-ordinate and fearless defence.

The DNA of this team appears to be the bigger worry. No energy, no intensity. Not enough of the desire that winners in any sport must have. Picking on individuals, is valid at times, but I think there are deeper, more worrying things about the approach of this team and these players, collectively. We needed about 6 players to add to last season’s squad, including a young, talented keeper for the near future...

I love Martinez. He seems to have the qualities to be successful. This season will make that judgement. He doesn’t have much time... The problems were there from the start of the season, and even some of last season. But he has not put it right yet.

The gloom in my Evertonian heart started when the transfer window closed, and also, by the way, when I read that Duncan Ferguson had been promoted to his present post. Not confident of beating Liverpool. But we live in hope. COYB

Makes complete sense, especially as this doesn't appear to mine Roberto's strong suit.

The issue we have is against Wolfsburg we had one full back assisting the other full back for the goal, which was great. Our defenders can't be in two places at once though so maybe in order to enjoy the more expansive aspects if Martinez's philosophy we have to endure the cost if it too. Also, whilst I think Coleman and Baines can play the system Stones is still learning, Distin is fading and Jags isn't confident, comfortable or competent enough to execute it which, all put together, has caused real uncertainty at the back - compounded by, or contributing to, Howard's Howlers.

The problem is that the players are making these mistakes week-in and week-out and surely part of that must be down to the coaching and training as these mistakes aren't being eradicated?

We are conceding far too many goals at home and a lot of the mistakes are due to our system and our short passing game. Teams know that if they press us we will eventually give them the ball in dangerous positions because our players are being coached to never hoof it out or away from danger but to look for a short pass to a team mate no matter where they are on the pitch.

In hindsight (which is very easy to do) I would have gone with the same side that beat Wolfsburg.

I know we are passionate fans, some more than others, but let's get things in perspective, we lost the game, which in the context of that most of our rivals also lost, was especially disappointing. Every time though we lose a game it's like its the end of the world on here, too many verbally lash out at the manager and most of the players,

Palace's 1st goal was a mix-up between Stones and Howard, the 2nd was a Howard howler, their 3rd was a well taken goal which was caused by us pressing for a equaliser!

The first two individual mistakes cost us the match, but for those I seriously doubt we would be having this discussion. Is it the manager's fault that individual players cock up? You see mistakes by other teams players all the time, do you blame their manager for them? No.

Last season, with the same manager, the same players, the same system we finished 5th with the 3rd best defence in the Prem. What's changed? Why were we successful then and now, according to some, everything's wrong?

Top 4 with our Euro commitments was never a realistic hope in my opinion, it never will be unless we can afford £50m-£100m extra per season... Fat chance, we were rated as the 7th best team in the league at the start of the season by the bookies! That's our level.

As I've said in other posts, our form against the teams we have played against, stands up to the closest inspection, Chelsea top of Prem, 4 wins plus draw at City; Arsenal 4th in the Prem, unbeaten; Leicester beat Man Utd, drew with Arsenal; WBA beat Spurs away.

Liverpool, Man Utd and Spurs all lost, are all their managers no good?

If we are to finish 7th, we will probably lose 12 games this season, it's to be hoped that some don't flip their lids after every loss!

Of course we're discussing the errors — because they lost us the match!!! A bit daft to state that, had they not happened, we would not be discussing them... I just don't understand that 'perspective'. Post-match analysis is about looking at what happened, surely?

Some blame the manager, some blame the players, some blame the lack of money, some blame Osman... these are all just opinions, which this forum is all about, yet you seem to condemn them out of hand on a weekly basis.

Why would we care a jot about other teams' managers? Who ever gives them a thought? Yet of course we care passionately about OUR manager coloured by our own assessments of how effective he is influencing what happens on the field. Call me old-fashioned but I believe that's what his role is. What we all struggle with is that there is no definitive answer to that question... which is why we also blame the players when they make obvious and preventable mistakes.

It's not that 'everything's wrong' — but clearly we have problems at the minute wrapping up the points from positions of advantage in some of our games. People are right to be concerned.

Martinez made far too many changes to a winning team, which is bound to cause a loss of momentum and rhythm. Did he really need to bench all 3 players that have played behind Lukaku this season, in the same match? Not to mention 2 of those players have been in fantastic form and I highly doubt they needed resting ahead of the likes of Barry. This left us with an attacking midfield consisting of 3 players who have barely played all season, and never played together.

Yes, for the first 30 minutes we looked like we might get away with it, but as soon as the pressure was put on, we folded. If those first half chances were falling to the in form Mirallas and Naismith, I believe we would have been 2 or 3 goals up before Palace knew what had hit them, such was the confidence in the squad after the 2 previous games. All that is without getting on to reinstating a centre back partnership that had conceded 10 goals in 3 games, whilst breaking 1 one up that conceded 1 goal in 2 victories.

For me, Martinez is starting to cost us points. The poor fitness first few games due to the lack of a pre-season, the baffling substitutions in the first 2 games, where it seemed only like for like wide players would be replaced, regardless of what was happening in the game. He is starting to look like a man who will never learn from his mistakes, because he believes he never makes any.

Soon after a match is over there's too much knee-jerk reaction, certain players are always useless, the manager hasn't got a clue etc. Its the over reaction that pisses me off. Yes, in football there's always going to be mistakes made, what do fans expect perfection every week. Two individual mistakes cost us the match yesterday, managers can't legislate for them, can they?

The nub of our problems are simple, the players are not overall good enough, because the club hasn't the finance to compete quality wise with the likes of City, Chelsea, Utd etc. I would have thought that was obvious to most.

Post 119: "Last season, with the same manager, the same players, the same system we finished 5th with the 3rd best defence in the Prem. What's changed? Why were we successful then & now, according to some, everything's wrong?"

Post 124: "The nub of our problems are simple, the players are not overall good enough..."

As for our new hero, Naismith. He was lucky to stay on the pitch against Wolfsburg and he was at it again yesterday when his bad tackles gave Palace a freekick and a breather. Love his workrate and general play but he needs a few lessons on winning the ball without crunching the man.

Howard has always been a nightmare with time to think but he'll never be dropped. That said, Robles pushed El Hadji out of first position at Wigan and may just need a run of competitive games to show his true ability. Remember, this lad doesn't even get a run-out for the U21s so his nervy attitude is not surprising.

Sounds fair Raymond, but what has that to do with the likes of the previously winless Crystal Palace?

Stupid line up and fuckwittish keeping by Howard cost us the game yesterday not money

Everton, whilst second only to Chelski in scoring, do in fact have the worst defensive record to date in the Premier League. Having already shipped in 11 goals to London teams in 3 home games, one has to wonder if this is the trend for the season?

RM made a big blunder yesterday with his team selection and that is also a concern. Whilst it is easy to blame the back four and Howard for the mistakes, my take is that the midfield is woefully inept when not in possession, as they were against Wolfsburg where, on another day, Wolfsburg could have scored 4 or 5 themselves were it not for Howard and the back four. This is a problem RM has to resolve in a hurry given the schedule coming up.

Everything was looking good for this season until those two blown games against Arsenal and Leicester but, without a competitive midfield, they will remain an average side.

Atsu and Osman were woeful; Barry was running on empty – if everyone in the ground could see that, why couldn't Martinez?

I have waited till today to have my say because, if I had said what I felt Sunday, I would've been banned.

I'm not looking forward to the RS game... I can see them putting six past us.

No, I’m afraid we’ve got a naive manager who thinks he knows better than anyone. I’ve news for him: he doesn’t.

I agree with everything else. It's relegation form that needs sorting, and Osman should only be used sparingly from the bench these days.

We finished 5th last season, which was a pleasant surprise to everyone, I think I'm right in saying, we may still finish 5th this year you never know! Some of the older players are another year older, maybe that's the problem.

As far as my lack of money reference is concerned, I think we all appreciate that it's the factor that is holding us back from success most of all.

I would like to see us do a bit more of the quick, long, high ball out of defence bypassing the opponent's midfield, if only to keep their defence guessing as to what we will do and stop them pushing too far forward, so making more space in the middle of the field for us to play the tippy tappy. That's my amateur manager's naive view.

04-05 we qualified for the champions league then couldn't win a game for the first half of 05-06

06-07 & 07-08 we made reasonably solid starts but thereafter was just a nightmare until 2012 when we did ok.

We can't rely on trying to beat the big sides to bail us out. We have to beat those who we are expected to beat and, barring bad luck, should beat.

I be surprised if there combined squads cost as much as our center forward

The finishing side was too much, whilst the opening side looked unbalanced to me. Three very attacking players, Osman, Baines, plus some old legs leaves us pretty exposed. I think this is classic, we either score a boat load or we come unstuck, too much of a gamble IMO and a complete contrast to KITAP1.

Why change a winning team so early in the season? Especially one which has been generally acknowledged as not being fit enough just yet. Maybe the problem lies with the fact that he never gave himself any time off during the summer to refresh himself, but he’s got to start making some brave decisions.

We haven’t saw much of Besic, but he looks the type of player we need in the middle of the park. Can we keep persevering with Barry who although very good on the ball, offers very little in the way of protection to the back four?

We can’t carry on making individual errors though, because the pressure is building on the team, and if we are not careful we could fall into a proper rut. That said, this team can also beat anyone, so let’s hope the manager starts getting things right again pretty soon.

Also I have been saying all summer we were in desperate need of a new keeper. Not for one minute did I mean to replace Howard as number one, more to replace Robles as back up keeper. I still think Howard is an excellent keeper, but like any player, goalkeepers can go through a patchy spell. No doubt Robles will play against Swansea, but would any of us trust him on Saturday, or against Manure? He might play against krasnodar, but then again we all thought he would play against Wolfsburg.

So for me we definitely missed the boat by not signing a keeper in the summer. My choice throughout was David Marshall from Cardiff.