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Everton beaten by another Palace smash-and-grab raid

21/09/2014  Comments (130)  jump
Everton 2 - 3 Crystal Palace

Everton went from elation to despondency in the space of four days as they followed their handsome win over Wolfsburg and the superb rearguard action that helped secure it with a dismal home defeat to Crystal Palace.

Whereas Thursday evening was notable for some fine performances, it was individual mistakes that proved to be the Blues' undoing as Roberto Martinez's reshuffled team, one which featured four changes and two full debutants in the form of Christian Atsu and Samuel Eto'o, stumbled to a second home defeat of the season.

Things looked to be going to plan when Romelu Lukaku seemingly set them on their way to victory with a nicely-taken goal. The Belgian picked up Leon Osman's defence-splitting pass and slotted past Julian Speroni after just eight minutes but the tide of the match changed on an error from Tim Howard.

The American bundled James McArthur over in the area and handed Mile Jedinak the chance to bring Palace level completely against the run of play from the penalty spot.

Everton were unable to muster much in the way of a response to the equaliser, retreating into an erratic passing game that was vulnerable when moves broke down, and Atsu was the guilty party later in the half when his giveaway ended with Yannick Bolasie's shot deflecting off John Stones and rebounding off the angle of crossbar and post with Howard stranded.

The second half was only seven minutes old when Palace turned the match on its head, Frazier Campbell rising above Howard to meet Martin Kelly's deep cross and loop a header into the empty net with Everton's defence conspicuous by its absence.

2-1 became 3-1 with 21 minutes to go when Bolasie was put through by Jason Puncheon's pass and fired past Howard after Leon Osman had dallied with the ball and been robbed of possession in front of his own penalty area.

Martinez had already introduced Kevin Mirallas and Steven Naismith from the bench in place of Atsu and Stones in an effort to claw back the one-goal deficit and the Blues did begin to rally. And they were handed a way back into the game when Scott Dann chopped James McCarthy down in the box as he was about to shoot from in front of goal. Leighton Baines stepped up and converted the penalty with his usual aplomb and the seven remaining minutes plus the additional six offered plenty of time to grab equaliser.

Martinez seemed to agree, replacing Distin with Darron Gibson and moving Gareth Barry back to centre-half but though they pressed, Lukaku had two of the best chances, first when Scott Dann headed his goalbound header over and then, three minutes from the end when his first-time shot from Mirallas' low cross drifted over the crossbar from close range.

Palace could have rubbed salt into the wounds in stoppage time when Adlène Guédioura was sent away with just Howard to beat but he screwed his shot across goal.


Reader Comments (130)

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Stephen Brown
1 Posted 21/09/2014 at 20:34:10
Not watching MotD, not buying a paper tomorrow, not discussing football in work tomorrow, avoiding internet and I may even avoid ToffeeWeb for 24 hours! Gutted – season just hasn’t taken off as we expected!
Paul Rimmer
2 Posted 21/09/2014 at 20:44:29
Roberto got it wrong. Stones should play at centre half. .Besic or Hibbo at RB. EtoÂ’o should be played down the middle. Mirallas and Naismith should start and make subs when the jobÂ’s done. The subs today were bizarre. McCarthy @ RB? Osman not being subbed? We switched off after a bright start and gifted a poor side 3 goals.
Trevor Thompson
3 Posted 21/09/2014 at 20:51:06
Was it smash and grab? If we hadnÂ’t given them the 3 goals then theyÂ’d not have won. It wasnÂ’t like we pounded them and then they hit us on the break to score.
Jim Bennings
4 Posted 21/09/2014 at 20:45:12
I said on the last post I wonÂ’t be listening nor watching next weekÂ’s Derby. What is the point really? They arenÂ’t playing well but weÂ’re arguably playing worse at the minute, every single time our opponents attack, you feel itÂ’s going to result in us conceding.

There are a lack of leaders and players willing to take a risk on the ball this season, no midfielder takes responsibility. We badly miss characters like Tim Cahill and Arteta.

I looked at PalaceÂ’s Bolasie and thought to myself "WhereÂ’s our man who does that, who runs powerfully with the ball with no fear?" There was nobody willing to do it.

We donÂ’t defend as a team, the very best teams defend high up the pitch and press the oppositionÂ’s defences and harry them into mistakes, much like Palace did to us today AGAIN.

We are to slow too pedestrian like in our work when we havenÂ’t got the ball, we allow our opponents too much time and space.

Personally IÂ’m sick of false dawns at Everton.

Mike Hughes
5 Posted 21/09/2014 at 20:47:57
As I saw it (admittedly from row S (the back wall) of the GS stand which is far from the quality of my usual TB view), these were the issues:

1) Team selection was a concern. Coleman was an enforced absence but a big loss. RM sees things from close quarters so itÂ’s either down to lack of depth (i.e. the quality dips dramatically when we go much beyond the first XI) or unnecessary rotation. Not sure why Mirallas & Naismith were benched. Too knackered to start? Really? Why not keep the same team and sub them as they tired?

2) Everything looked OK for the first half-an-hour but (sorry to say this) Warnock did a job on Martinez in the second half. They pressed & hassled us far more and therefore had a Plan B – we didn’t. For us, it was the same pretty passing with a sad lack of penetration today.

One indisputable fact is that we are leaking goals at an alarming rate: individual errors, slow starts, not knowing how to close out a game when winning or whatever.

Some people said that conceding 6 against Chelsea (IÂ’m still embarrassed by that) was against this seasonÂ’s champions. But today was against a bottom side (well not any more).

I just want EFC to win, whatever it takes, and regardless of who manages and who plays.

Conceding 11 goals in 3 home games! I think we should be shouting for Fortress Goodison before School of Science. LetÂ’s get the basics right and have something to build on as a priority.

Dan McKie
6 Posted 21/09/2014 at 20:55:52
Changing from Mirallas, Naismith and McGeady, all in decent form, to Osman, EtoÂ’o and Atsu, who have never played a single game together, was fucking criminal in my opinion. Just what was Martinez thinking?

As for the defence, he may have been short on options with Coleman being out, but we have had 2 games with Stones/Jags at centre back, 2 wins from 2, 1 goal conceded. Distin/Jags, 0 wins from 4, 13 goals conceded. They should have been asking members of the crowd to play before putting Jags and Distin back together.

MartinezÂ’s mistakes both before and during games have been all too common so far this season.

Paul Hewitt
8 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:01:33
Hopefully thatÂ’s the last time we see Stones at right back. He is a top class central defender.
Jack Cross
9 Posted 21/09/2014 at 20:40:01
Stephen, Yes it is a sickener. ItÂ’s back to basics but hasnÂ’t that already been said on more than one occasion this season?

What gets me is after such games Roberto spouts the same garbage but doesnÂ’t seem to learn from our defensive problems. Maybe he doesnÂ’t see us has having any problems. He is so rapped up with attacking at any cost.

And this slow build up and passing back bollocks doesnÂ’t have you on the edge of your seat for the right reason. And I canÂ’t see it getting any better. How can a defence go from being one of the best in the Premier League to the worst?

One thing we all knew about Roberto was his defences are shit and we are experiencing it for the first time. At the moment, it’s not 4th from the top were aiming for — more like 4th from the bottom. Things will even themselves out? Don’t bank on it. I can see a long hard struggle this season.

Jim Bennings
10 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:05:35
Do we ever actually look able to cope with it when sides press us high up the pitch?

Is that why we lose so many Derby matches?

We only look good with loads of time on the ball but press and harry us and where is our plan B??

Anthony Burke
11 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:02:50
We are going through a really bad patch at the moment. It is still early days... though IÂ’m as worried as most about our defence. But itÂ’s the same as last year. IÂ’m confident we can sort it out and on the rise we will go. Have faith COYB!!!!!
Mike Hughes
12 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:11:28
On a positive note, weÂ’re only:
3 points behind Man City
4 points off a CL place.
But donÂ’t look down.
Jim Bennings
13 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:16:02

The writing was on the wall at the end of last season.

3 at home to Palace and City.

2 own goals at Southampton in a must win match.

4 at Anfield and 4 at Arsenal in the FA Cup Quarter Final.

The thing is last season Martinez was working on a relatively risk free and no lose situation.

Lukaku was here on loan as was Barry and Deulofeu.

There was less expectancy on them all to deliver but now after considerable cash spent and permanent deals signed, plus the high expectations this season after 21 wins and the top 4 battle, the pressure is really on all concerned to deliver.

At the minute we are failing dismally.

I dread next week.

I am going to disappear for a few hours and get the score up at 3pm next Saturday.

Jack Cross
14 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:09:05
Jim. That’s it the tempo is too slow, there is no urgency, all the aggression seems to have gone. The defenders spend that much time with all this namby pamby go nowhere passing, once they loose the ball they haven’t got a clue what to do next. And Lukaku I’ve never seen a striker like him, he just got no touch or control. It will come, he was 㿈 mil for godsake. A striker with no touch. He will get goals maybe but won’t do much else. Could you have seen Moyse buying him no chance doesn’t get around the pitch enough. Were use to having grafters and all I could see today was sloppy has-beens that have had their best times and now should be put out to pasture. The problem is we are stuck with them until next season at least. What did Jags say he will struggle to get his England place back, Well there’s positive thinking for you. And he’s in our defence. I noticed Roberto didn’t use the word Magnificent in his after match speech maybe someone told him to drop it from his script or for the first time he can see he as real problems on his hands. Has for the Derby, I’m not a clairvoyant but are we all thinking the same?
Anthony Burke
15 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:30:09
Mike (#12), I like the positive thinking... just never look down.
Neil Roberts
16 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:33:24
We donÂ’t need defensive back-up?

Wake up, Roberto — we certainly do!

Bar Coleman, all our defence was out there today... and as for Osman — why did he start???!?!

Clive Rogers
17 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:16:34
Poor team selection. Picking Osman and Barry together leaves us short of pace in midfield. Osman is now a 20 minute player only. Barry also is on his last legs.He was shattered 2nd half. God knows what he will be like 2 years from now. Eto also was very poor.
Breaking up the Jags, Stones pairing was a mistake.
For god’s sake Roberto lose your obsession with geriatrics, its a young man’s game.
Andy Crooks
18 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:40:11
The passing around at the back is nerve wracking. We are poor at it and look ready to concede a soft goal any moment. The team selection and approach seemed arrogant to me. I fear an almighty thumping is coming our way.
David Flanagan
19 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:37:29
The manager has learnt nothing and thatÂ’s our problem. We go a goal up against a team clearly lacking confidence but, instead of taking the game to them, we fuck around and let them get a foothold in the game.

Howard is a liability with no real competition but the manager set the tone with his selection. Eleven goals conceeded in 3 home Premier games is a disaster but no critism comes to Martinez.

Our right hand side has been a joke all season. Martinez needs to start earning his money by working on our issues before itÂ’s too late.

Jack Cross
20 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:38:41
Jim Bennings. Your comments always make sense mate. Keep it up.
Jim Bennings
21 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:50:26
I agree Jack.

The passing game is nit all its cracked up to be.

Its only good if you actually move the balk about with a pace and purpose but too often there's no urgency or drive to our play and good Lord, what the hell do we train with all week because we just simply switch off when we haven't git the ball.

Borussia Dortmund are a master of bring Greg at high tempo pressing and in their best days it was Barcelona's stock and trade, lose the ball then you go hunting in packs towin it bback and never let your opponents have a seconds peace.

The space we afford teams is ridiculous.

Jim Bennings
22 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:55:57
## pressing at high tempo..nit bring Greg haha.where this smart phone gets its spellings from God knows.

Oh well that's what supporting us does to you!

James Byrne
23 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:50:23
Roberto got his tactics and game plan well and truly wrong today. The team selection was no doubt interrupted by the loss of Coleman; so with that in mind, why the fuck do we weaken the team even further by introducing Eto’o and Atsu as well as put Stones in no man's land at right back. All of that and Osman for 90 minutes?

The intro back into the team of Distin was also a factor in the further weakness of the defensive strategy after conceding only one goal in the past two games without him.

The biggest mistake of the day though was to put Naismith on the bench; the lad is the only player who can raise the tempo and who has the ability to split the defence up.

I’m behind the manager but he has shown today some serious naivety!

Jack Cross
24 Posted 21/09/2014 at 21:58:17
Jim. You want to send that last comment to Roberto. Makes perfect sense to me and most on here. Maybe it would be the kick up the arse he needs listening to some sense for a change instead of his stubborn don’t work tactics
Sam Hoare
27 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:00:05
Still early in the season. A win and we would be 6th or 7th saying it was a decent start. As it is we are 14th and all feeling a bit grim.

Certainly there are issues. Ball retention under pressure being one and a defensive system that seems to give up multiple chances every match.

I'm a little calmer than I was 3 hours ago and prepared to sit back and watch for another month or so. Hopefully things improve or we will soon lose touch with CL spaces.

Jim Bennings
28 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:03:16
Yeah your probably right Jack.

I wouldn't worry though, he will stick with his favourites at Anfield on Saturday and if plan A doesn't work then we can always just shut the curtains, close the windows and go to bed early next Saturday night.

Jack Cross
31 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:08:02
Jim. Liverpool FC!

Built by Shanks,
Watched by Planks,
Ruined by Yanks,
Laughed at by Mancs,

Alex Carry
33 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:21:45
I thought the match was awful, 76% possession and what to show for it? I think that one was down to Martinez.. YOU DON'T CHANGE A WINNING TEAM!!
Fraser Auld
34 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:07:17
If Coleman had been fit, I'd like to think that Distin wouldn't have been back in the team.

One thing that this game highlighted and to be fair, think we all knew, is that the one outfield position where we lack quality cover is right back. Don't get me wrong, Stones will be a great player but the difference between what he gives the team at right back and what Coleman gives the team at right back is massive. Even more so in the case of Hibbo! I think our success this season could be very much reliant on a fit Seamus.

RE rotating the front three: Atsu, Osman and Eto are hardly poor players or replacements for the three absentees. They haven't seen any game time this season and should have been absolutely dying to impress. I didn't mind Roberto fielding this team, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Admittedly the fact that none of them had started a league game until today wasn't ideal, I grant you.

p.s. I've a feeling we'll win the derby!

Jim Bennings
35 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:22:16

Jack that wants bottling up that and selling on lad..cracker!

Ian Riley
37 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:10:53
Be afraid! Letting in goals like no tomorrow started at the end of last season. Having two defensive midfielders is a joke at home as away from home we defend as a team. The midfield offers no protection and no urgency to get back and defend.

Why are we resting players? Three matches in seven days, well poor them! The team was building confidence after two wins and back to square one. The Europa league is not our bread and butter, play the reserves for all I care. The result today sums up our approach to defending under the manager, he needs help. Sadly the team have lost the art of defending we once had and lets hope it comes back very soon.

Jack Cross
38 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:25:02
Fucking hell. I thought I had the Horror channel on then. Just realised it’s Everton v Crystal Palace. Ha ha.
Liam Reilly
40 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:46:44
Sometimes I fucking hate being an Evertonian. Another opportunity gone: United, the Shite, Tottenham, Arsenal, Ciity all dropping points and we fuck it up royally.
Simon Watts
42 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:55:46
Two things here. One Howard is trying to be a playboy. I not sure what happens in his private life but he seems to have a taste for a string of bimbo women. They kind of quite shallow and quite demanding. He is attracting the wrong women. He left his wife and kids. As a goalkeeper you need to be focused. Playing the I don't want to be hero after the world cup blah blah. I want to be forgotten etc. He got half an eye on the game and the other on some stupid women he has met.
Jim Bennings
43 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:05:06
One things for sure, I don't think we are going to be equalling or beating last season's win tally of 21.

We have Liverpool and United Away back to back one before October 18th when we host Aston Villa, another game which under the circumstances will be far from easy.

Andy Meighan
44 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:03:38
That was no smash and grab raid by the way. The best team won and could have actually scored 5. Hit the bar unluckily and should have notched in stoppage time. No, IÂ’m afraid weÂ’ve got a naive manager who thinks he knows better than anyone. IÂ’ve news for him, he doesnÂ’t.
John Malone
45 Posted 21/09/2014 at 22:44:41
Jack Cross, I couldn't agree more with your earlier post, I'm sick of this boring, slow, sideways keep ball football we're making Moyes look adventurous. There is far too much pressure on the centre halves not only do they have to defend they are constantly playing the ball, there is no rest bite for them no wonder mistakes are being made. Last year it was all knew, fresh and exciting now it's the norm the buzz isn't there and there isn't enough zip in our play.

I'm dreading the derby especially if Sturridge is fit, I'll be having nightmares this week picturing Jags and Distin backing off then Howard picking the ball out of the net, sickening!

Drew O'Neall
46 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:26:32
I feel sorry for our defenders. Martinez has shot himself (and by proxy, them) in the foot today.

When our confidence is already fragile some of that made no sense.

I'm all for being positive to affect change, which he was, but making wholesale changes to the starting line up and then proceeding to bring on attackers for defenders when it was going wrong, was asking for trouble in my opinion and the upshot will be 'fear, uncertainty and doubt' for the coming games when we need 'business as usual'.

Chris Leyland
47 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:25:35
Three home games in the league, one point, and 11 goals conceded.

Last three homes games of last season, one win, two defeats and 6 goals conceded. So our last 6 home league games have yielded one win, one draw and four defeats with 17 goals leaked.

And there are people on this site who were talking about challenging the top four. Those people who aren't yet worried need to wake up.

The only things we will finish anywhere near the top of this seasonat are:
Worst defensive record
Most one-dimensional team
Most sideways and backwards passes
Longest time to get the ball into the opposition penalty area

Chris Leyland
48 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:34:20
Drew O'Neill, it's not like Martinez was forewarned about the dangers of making wholesale changes. Last time he made that number of changes was..... Crystal Palace at home last season and we lost 3-2.
Chris Leyland
49 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:34:20
Drew O'Neill, it's not like Martinez was forewarned about the dangers of making wholesale changes. Last time he made that number of changes was..... Crystal Palace at home last season and we lost 3-2.
Tim Locke
50 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:29:10
Can't work out what is going wrong. People have put forward loads of ideas but for some reason it just seems to be happening to us season in season out. I have lost count of the number of seasons where we have an amazing defence only to start with a sieve in place. I am hoping that things, like most other seasons will get better.

I thought getting the West brom result was the start of a new chapter, but losing to CP again, their record against us is amazing. The only plus side is no other club really firing I am discounting Chelski, so we are not out of it by any means.

But what would count as a good season, I would love to see us win the Europa league, and a top 6 finish.

Chris Leyland
51 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:38:11
Tim, at the moment I'd settle for not having a three-figure goals conceded column!
Mike Keating
52 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:21:39
Is Hibbert injured?
If Coleman was out why play Stones at RB (just because Hodgson thinks he can do this for England)?
And then replace him with McCarthy FFS
But at the end of the day we had better players but not a better team and gifted the 3 goals courtesy of Howard (twice) and Osman who has been a great servant but is too slow.
Barry was crap too
I was looking forward to MOTD but have resisted the urge.
Goodnight one and all
Chris Leyland
53 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:41:52
Mike, one thing about their third goal, Osman was largely to blame but he was also given a shite pass by Jagielka. This exemplifies our passing it round the back game.
Jim Bennings
54 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:48:09
There is no solutions until we learn to try and play differently now and again when the passing game doesn't work.

Still, our corners are dreadful, West Brom eeked out a win at Spurs thanks to scoring from a corner, when do we ever look like a threat from a corner?

There's just no variety to our play.

As for solving the defence??

Try pressing teams high up the pitch and defending from the front.


Kevin Tully
55 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:58:25
Tell me if I am wrong here: There were two defenders marking the Palace forward, then Howard rushes in between both defenders to take the opposition player out. Madness.

Then for their second, a 40 yard cross comes sailing into the box, which Howard completely mis-read, culminating in their second goal.

Now, Martinez may be wrong for rotating players, he may well be the worst defensive coach in all four divisions - but how the fuck are those two goals anything to do with his style of management?

Some very strange arguments being put forward as to why we lost today. I saw a goalie and a midfielder fuck up. Don't know what game you guys were watching.

Dennis Ng
56 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:52:13
Chris, we are nowhere close to getting 3 digits conceded. That's way too good for suicidal defending. We're not there yet.

I agree on the amount of backwards passing. It drives me nuts to see those backwards passes when there are openings forward to build play. The fact we're scoring when they get their act together makes me wonder if they just forgot their game plan whenever they do that. As a few mentioned, when we're hurried off the ball, they seem to lose the plot.

Paul Smith
57 Posted 22/09/2014 at 00:42:20
I'm not being funny but I think Roberto has a lot to answer for today. Firstly he picked a disjointed team with baines left so isolated, then made some very strange sub's. Why pick eto if ur going to play him so out of position. Surely we could of used our squad better than that.
Roger Sunde
58 Posted 22/09/2014 at 00:53:35
I agree with Kevin Tully it was individual mistakes.

But I though RM rotated too heavily, it must mean hes gonna field a strong team in the league cup.

Dennis Ng
59 Posted 22/09/2014 at 01:02:03
Kevin, you're right. However much I feel RM's decisions are weird, the 3 goals does not relate directly to his decisions.

Roger, I fear so too. I do think the CP loss might make him reconsider.

Derek Thomas
60 Posted 22/09/2014 at 01:13:37

Dennis, Roger, every one, Roberto is not going to change, just like Moyes was not going to change. We just have to hope he gets it right many more times than he gets it wrong ( hasn't happened yet though )

Our slow paced passing and plenty of possession, is just one step above an Exhibition Game This is not Figure Skating where points are given for style and artistic appreciation etc. It's supposed to be a high speed contact sport. Nor is it Ballroom dancing, slow, slow quick, quick, slow...we have to put some quick, quick into our slow, slow

This season how many times have some said, this was solely down to Roberto or that was solely down to Roberto, four? five?

Intensity Roberto, Intensity...sort it

Tony Farrell
61 Posted 22/09/2014 at 01:02:06
One can argue Martinez dosent put out a team to get beat , but isn't it about time he admits he got it wrong It gets a bit boring him saying how incredible we were , and how strong we were I for one would welcome some honesty , we were woeful at the back [again] clueless in midfield and powder puff up front , the comments on here are spot on ,we Evertonians aren't soft we know are football , you picked the team bob and got it so wrong .It looked a decent 11 but its were he played them ,and miss use of subs . Its getting to look like wigan with every game .Where did that lad get his info on howards women [ made me laugh as did the manc result and the shite] Try and keep the faith boys its hard being a blue but its also brilliant.
Michael Penley
62 Posted 22/09/2014 at 01:53:40
Derek (60) "Ballroom dancing" is probably the best description of our style I've heard yet. After every game I have visions in my head of our players dancing around the opposition, darting into space, huffing and puffing, and all with little outcome except the apparent attractiveness of it all. The opposition don't mind - they can sit back all day and watch us do it and still score more than us, while getting paid for the entertainment.
Jack Cross
63 Posted 22/09/2014 at 01:41:04
Jim Bennings. That’s the problem mate isn’t it we don’t have a plan B. Prissy passing football will suit some opposition and I’m sure we will play some teams off the park. But there will be teams that we play against were we simply need to get stuck in to them, man to man marking, don’t give them a minute, don’t give them anytime to think what to do next. Make them make the mistakes and not us. It mightn’t be pretty at times but there are time when you need to grind out results no matter how unsightly it is to watch. Every team in the premier knows how we play and week in week out there is no change, no matter how heavily were defeated. The problem is Roberto seems to be a one trick pony and lets be truthful I can’t see him changing his style of play can you?
Mark Andersson
64 Posted 22/09/2014 at 01:47:20
Tony 61 your last comment sums it up. We go a goal up, have control of the game brilliant. We concede a stupid penalty and the crowd and players go into panic mode

There are some great posts on here, but Rm don't read them.

As for the Yank being a play boy that was good entertainment.

No way will I watch the Derby live next weekend. If we can concede 3 against palace then be prepared for another hammering at Afield.

Paul Dark
65 Posted 22/09/2014 at 02:37:10
We simply need to tighten up at the back. Baines and Coleman need to play less narrow and Barry and Macca must afford more protection. Defence is RM's main weakness, but he's doing a great job.


Brian Cleveland
66 Posted 22/09/2014 at 02:25:19
Come on guys, the RS defence is as bad as ours... next week could be 6 - 6 !!
Jack Cross
67 Posted 22/09/2014 at 02:44:20
Paul Dark. You joking Paul? Roberto, is doing a great job were and how mate?
Paul Dark
68 Posted 22/09/2014 at 02:54:56
The very important defensive frailties aside he's building a club, not just a team.

Defensive frailties happen, but he must shoulder blame and learn. Let's be patient and get behind the team.

Osman, Robles, Alcaraz and McGeady need to be shipped out. They will never make the grade.


Jack Cross
69 Posted 22/09/2014 at 02:59:45
Did you see BK in the stands? He didn’t look to happy. I would like to hear his true feelings about this Roberto, defensive debacle, would you?
Paul Dark
70 Posted 22/09/2014 at 03:02:38
Osma is a misprint, sorry.

Like everyone, gutted re yesterday. Soooo Everton.

Peter Barry
71 Posted 22/09/2014 at 03:18:56
The main cause of last nights defeat was 'Howard the Howler' Crystal Palace had three shots on target all night and Howard let EVERY ONE in and apart from that his ridiculous giving away of a penalty for their first goal was UNFORGIVEABLE for a so called 'Premiership' Keeper. Everton will not progress until we get a much better and much more reliable goalkeeper. Roberto must also bear some of the blame for his perplexing team selection and inept substitutions. Oh and Powder Puff Osman should never put on an Everton first team jersey again unless we only have 10 fit players in the whole club.
Harold Matthews
72 Posted 22/09/2014 at 03:11:25
Paul D. Your hatred of Aiden McGeady causes me to ignore everything you have to say on the subject of football.
James Wong
73 Posted 22/09/2014 at 03:05:03
Absolutely sickening result. Pretty much dominated the entire match only for Palace to steal three goals. Two of them completely given away.

Howard - I don't know any other keeper that is more error prone that gets away with it season after season. When he has an off day, its ugly. Also I'm not a fan of

Liked the look of Atsu though.

Team selection was poor and arrogant today, should have stayed with Stones and Jags in the middle. Also should have addressed the right and left back situation during the summer transfer window. The top 3 of Lukaku, Atsu, Eto'o had never played together and did what they could, but Everton underestimated Palace. Naismith should have played today with Lukaku and Eto'o and it would have been much more balanced with Atsu to play in the Capital One Cup.

The subs were also bizarre, the third goal came from right back where Stones was taken off in place of Mirallas/Naismith. Was McCarthy supposed to be playing there? Just ridiculous.

James Wong
74 Posted 22/09/2014 at 03:35:21
Meant to say - not a fan of his beard. It doesn't strike me as very comfortable. Does any other football player have a beard like that?
Jack Cross
75 Posted 22/09/2014 at 03:44:42
James Wong. Howards beard, a religious thing I believe.
James Wong
76 Posted 22/09/2014 at 03:54:32
Oh I see. I didn't know.

Wikipedia says Howard is Christian. Must be a personal thing then.

Matt Traynor
77 Posted 22/09/2014 at 03:58:52
Paul Dark #68, given that you obviously buy into what RM is trying to achieve - defensive frailties aside, the fact that he signed 75% of the players you think should be shipped out, and the other one featured in every Premier League game in RM's first season, I think you are going to struggle to rationalise your support of RM with what you think needs sorting.
Peter Barry
78 Posted 22/09/2014 at 04:33:01
One statistic tells the whole story of this game - Crystal Palace 3 shots on target all night 3 GOALS.
Until we get ourselves a consistent , reliable goalkeeper we can forget everything except maybe mid table mediocrity a' la TGT.
Michael Penley
79 Posted 22/09/2014 at 04:39:06
Actually Peter, if you take out the penalty 'shot' and the 'shot' following the mayhem in the box resulting in the ball bouncing off a head into goal, it was 3 goals from 1 shot. Record-breaking defending right there.
Mark Andersson
80 Posted 22/09/2014 at 04:48:33
For you stats guys, Everton have a better team by far than Roberto Wigan, however we seem to be having the loss ratios and goals conceded. Look back at the past to see a glimpse of the future.
Barry Earley
81 Posted 22/09/2014 at 05:43:32
I deliberately didn't post last night due to anger at what had happened. If I posted I would have likely had an over reaction and then it is only natural to want to defend that position.

I watched the game live here in Australia and put myself through a repeat this morning. My initial reaction would have been to rant and rave about rotation, defence, tactics etc.

On reflection, after having time to calm down and watch it all again I feel there is one reason we lost. That reason is Tim Howard.

In Europe on Thursday and in the World Cup against Belguim Howard demonstrated that he is in the best group of keepers in the world at stopping shots. Against Palace yesterday and in too many other games he demonstrated that he is in the lower ranks when it comes to decision making.

The reality of the game for me was that Martinez was correct in his rotation and playing style he asked. We had 75% possession, far more shots, far more corners, etc etc. The problem is though Palace had ONE SHOT on Target from open play and scored 3 goals!! That has to be a record. Their first two goals was a penalty that Howard should never had conceded, but he had time to make a decision and the result was a mess. The second was a speculative punt that Howard again had time to think about and again stuffed it up. Watch the goal scorer (if you can put yourself through it again) he doesn't even see the ball when its hitting him, it bounces off him and into the net!!

Whats the solution? I heard Joe Hart is in his final season and hasn't signed a new contract, not sure how accurate that is, but I would be happy for him to get a massive signing on fee and be paid as much as our highest earner if it means that we carry on scoring at least 2 or more per game and stop conceding 3 or more per game.

Brian Porter
82 Posted 22/09/2014 at 05:49:00
RM should have learned from last seasonÂ’s debacle against Palace, but failed to do so. Naismith is in great scoring form, as is Mirallas, and both should have started. They are professional footballers and should be fit enough to start three matches in eight days. They could have been subbed if they showed tiredness.

I hate to say this, but, after 55 years as an Evertonian, I see a crisis looming. We simply have lost the ability to defend against even the most ordinary PL opposition and, if the problem is not addressed quickly, we can forget challenging for Europe again, and begin to think of ways to avoid relegation!

You do NOT change a winning team, and yesterdayÂ’s team selection showed no logic, and no desire to go for the jugular. EtoÂ’o should play in the middle, and Lukaku proved last season he can devastating coming in from the right.

It also showed that RM treated Palace with disrespect, thinking they would roll over and die, and if course they didnÂ’t want to play that game. As much as I love the man, he has to start listening to otherÂ’s opinions before itÂ’s too late.

We still need top class goalkeeping cover, as Tim canÂ’t do it all as weÂ’ve seen. Thursday obviously took a lot out of him. Some great keepers have moved clubs since the World Cup. Why didnÂ’t the manager move for one of them? The prices paid for some of the best in the world have been peanuts by Premier League standards.

A look at todayÂ’s league table makes depressing reading when we expected so much this season, and guess whoÂ’s up next? With our defence in its current state, anyone want to bet against a repeat of last seasonÂ’s 4-0 debacle?

RM might want to turn a blind eye, but, with my years of experience, not only as a supporter, but as a qualified sports coach, I state, quite categorically, we are currently in BIG TROUBLE. Sort it out, NOW, Roberto, before itÂ’s too late. Personally, the best IÂ’m now hoping for is mid-table mediocrity.

John Paul McGurk
83 Posted 22/09/2014 at 06:15:33
ColemanÂ’s County Donegal was playing in the All-Ireland Final, did RM give him the day off to watch?
MIke McLean
84 Posted 22/09/2014 at 05:56:18
I’m not prepared to judge R M till he’s had 18 months in the job. Beyond saying he’s livened the gaff up and attempted to turn workmen into artists, there’s still not - in my view - a lot that can usefully said about whether or not he’s a winner.

There are some things that can be said about the players.

Too many old men and young, unproven kids in the squad. The team lacks "zing", looks knackered, can’t press? If you have five or six chaps approaching their mid thirties on the pitch,what do you expect?

A successful squad needs experience and youth, of course, but a winning squad needs a preponderance of players in their prime and, of course, they’re the ones who command the highest fees and wages.

No winning team that I can remember in the modern game has a GK who finds it impossible to have a consistently good season. But, if you have a limited amount of money, you address the areas of greatest concern and this year, it was the striker’s position which needed attention most urgently.

In my view, it’s a great pity we didn’t secure the Cardiff City GK, Marshall. I don’t want a bloke who has a worldy one day and a series of brain farts the next.

As ever, I believe, the root cause of virtually all of this, is our lack of serious dosh. We can’t ship out the oldies because we can’t afford to replace them. Each game will vary and we’ll end up winning more than we lose but true progress will remain as elusive as ever not because the manager (easy, easy target) is a fool but because his hands are tied as firmly as were those of OFM.

Michael Penley
85 Posted 22/09/2014 at 07:07:50
Brian - I think you're spot on. Howard can stop shots all day long but simply isn't an intelligent keeper. I'd look forward to his retirement (as much as he seems to), only Robles doesn't seem a whole lot better. Let's just throw Stanek in the 1st team, what's the worst that could happen?
Jim Bennings
86 Posted 22/09/2014 at 07:14:58
One of the biggest problems facing Martinez is not only rectifying our appalling defensive duties but for me, the midfield is unbalanced.

Do we always need 2 holding midfielders at home?

Barry and McCarthy are not having a great season so far and neither of them offer a world of creativity.
Don't get me wrong I like both often but do we always need both at the same time?'

I said all summer four things we needed to sort out and make a priority were...

A better quality keeper to put pressure on Howard or even take his place.

A big strong commanding fitter younger centre half.

A creative brain in the middle of the pitch, even more so with Barkley missing for so long...Lewis Holtby??? Obviously he went off to Hamburg.

Finally a quick strong running, athletic wide player to replace Deulofeu.
Yannick Bolasie??

We need to have a rethink in January and just hope that we hang around the top 10 , I keep my fingers crossed there is still money left to spend.

Also in the meantime perhaps we need to start working on a few various ways of playing.

The slow passing game won't be a success at the 100 mph cauldron of Anfield next week no matter how poorly they are playing across the park.

Jim Bennings
87 Posted 22/09/2014 at 07:40:08
People have always been too carried away with Howard in my opinion.

The same at the World Cup, the fact remains every shot he saved in that Belgium game was what you'd expect a professional goalkeeper to save, they were all weak shots right at him.

I have said for about 4 years but was regularly shouted down for criticizing him but he makes way way too many judgmental errors and comical decisions, for me he's like a poor man's David James.

Take that penalty decision yesterday, what the hell did he cone bursting out for when we had defenders to deal with it?
Why not just bark at Stones to smash it away?

The guys a comic book version.

Joseph Clarke
88 Posted 22/09/2014 at 06:59:46
It is a distraction to only look at individual mistakes, they will always happen in every team. We have to look at what went before.

In every game this season, and in many last, whenever we are on top of a team, we encourage the opposition to gain confidence by not being hungry to have that ball, not pressuring them, and giving the ball away. This seems to be the culture of the team. A very relaxed attitude, that is quickly picked up by the opposition. They come into the game more, and force more mistakes to be made by us, as they gain confidence.

If the make up of your team lacks intensity and desire, it is not something you can suddenly find, in the middle of a game. You have to have the attitude that the ball belongs to you, and it is a bit of an insult when the opposition has it. This attitude has to go right through the team, right through the game. We need to maintain the pressure beyond a fifteen minute or so period, till we get a goal, and then ease up.

Martinez has been brilliant in so many ways for the team and the club, since he came here. I like him a lot, and think he is potentially a great manager. But these problems have been there for some time , and it doesnÂ’t look like they have been addressed. This, plus lack of new players, is worrying.

MIke McLean
89 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:04:58
Jim @ 87: I write out of genuine ignorance ... not a compulsive T’webber so don’t know: do people seriously rate Howard as top notch?

If so, there’s less hope than I thought for footy fans.

Dave Pritchard
90 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:13:51
Horror show yesterday and as I couldn't be there only have the radio commentary, MOTD2 and TW to judge.

From MOTD it seems clear that the 3 goals conceded were all from individual blunders. Maybe for the penalty a combination of Howard and Stones. How do you stop individual blunders? Maybe being dropped from the team is a way of sharpening the mind.

Robles will surely play on Tuesday and has his chance to impress. I know he gets slated generally on here but after Tim's gaffes yesterday would he have done any worse? Suggestion of throwing Stanek in is probably a bit too soon although I have never seen him play.

Derek Knox
91 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:12:29
Having let the dust settle on another home defeat, as many others have too, I have refrained from 'letting rip with gut reaction' post-match comments. Having said that and watched the replays, I have still not been able to rationalise the errors.

I can understand totally the need for rotation with so many games this season, but I fear that, although we have made quality additions to the squad in midfield and forward positions, we have failed to address the need for defence and that includes the goalkeeping position too.

I have always maintained that it is of little use scoring goals at one end, if you are prone to leaking them at the other. Let's just hope that this is a temporary blip and will be sorted before it's too late.

Norman Merrill
92 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:25:21
Howard has always been a accident waiting to happen, his decision making leaves a lot to be desired.
The derby coming up, just makes me shudder.
Graham Mockford
93 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:25:38
I just watched the goals and confirmed what I saw yesterday. Howard at fault for two goals but not just his fault. We defended horrendously as we have on a number of occasions this season.

Stones had an opportunity to clear the first goal but dithered. Stones and Jags too far apart for a speculative cross leaving their player free on the edge of the six-yard box. Similar stuff for the third after a mistake by Osman.

Stones is not a right back, he offers virtually nothing going forward and got a roasting from Bolasie in the second half yesterday to the extent he was subbed and replaced with McCarthy.

This is not a one-off now, 13 goals in 5 PL games is not good enough. Otherwise, itÂ’s going to be a long season.

Jim Bennings
94 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:34:20
Howard has always been the same, that's why Ferguson let him go at Man Utd so soon. He makes too many ricks.

I remember being at Spurs about 4 years ago when he misjudged a cross and it landed on Crouch's head and ended up in a goal, carbon copy if yesterday's second Palace goal.

Martinez needs to start thinking of the future regarding certain players now; loyalty gets you nowhere in this game.

Jim Bennings
95 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:40:23
The keeper that I did quite like as a replacement for Howard was the guy who went from Celtic to Southampton in the summer..

Frasier Forster.

Big commanding, and doesn't seem as prone to sheer moments of comical madness like Howard.

Andrew Ellams
96 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:41:58
Looking at some of the defences around the Premier League you have to feel a bit sorry for Roy Hodgson when he gets stick for the state of EnglandÂ’s back four. He hasnÂ’t got much to choose from.

Paul Dark, a poor performance all round yesterday and you pick on two players who didnÂ’t even take part. DoesnÂ’t really make sense...

Joseph Clarke
97 Posted 22/09/2014 at 08:56:45
The team, not just the goalkeeper, have serious problems, that need to be attended to as a matter of urgency. We are facing a potential disaster. This is not an overstatement, or a knee-jerk reaction.
Derek Thomas
98 Posted 22/09/2014 at 09:06:37
No apologies for pinching this from another site (credit to other poster on GOT whose name escapes me)

Palace / Martinez; fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Mike Green
99 Posted 22/09/2014 at 09:21:44
Simon Watts #42 - I think there's an element of truth in what you say.

There was an article in the Sunday papers with Howard half of which revolved around his view that nothing surprises him in football - he's at that stage of his career where he's been there, seen it and done it all. This in turn gives him great confidence whenever he's on the pitch etc.

This probably helps explain why in some matches he's a world beater, and in others a liability - his confidence getting him in and out of trouble in equal measure.

I also thought it was a pretty arrogant thing to say to be honest, implying he has nothing left to learn - which he clearly has off the back of yesterday's performance. It probably explains why he thinks it's OK to grab opposition players by the throat (Costa) and 'head butt' Azpilicueta in front of Jonathan Moss after he's lucky to even be on the pitch for handling outside the area in the Chelsea game - another case of bad decision making, bad execution and rushes of blood to the head.

His World Cup experience will have compounded the problem, he has no effective competition for his place (Robles is not the answer....) and Martinez's first job is to bring him down to earth with a bump.

The silver lining is it will hopefully focus his mind for next weekend, and touch word we'll all be singing his praises again this time next week. There's a great keeper in there, he just needs bringing down a peg or two, hopefully yesterday will have done that and out his heroics in Brazil and against Wolfsburg last week into perspective.

Andrew Ellams
100 Posted 22/09/2014 at 10:06:13
Howard is only a good goalkeeper when he doesnÂ’t have to think about what heÂ’s doing, ie, the majority of the reactive saves made against Wolfsburg and against Belgium in the World Cup. But, when he has time to think and is forced to make decisions, yesterday happens.
Jim Bennings
101 Posted 22/09/2014 at 10:24:28

Perhaps a lot of what you say about Howard is true, but in my opinion he's just never really been a truly top class keeper in the class of Southall, Nigel Martyn at his peak, Peter Schmeichel, David Seaman etc ect.

Howard is more in the Thomas Myhre class, at times looked really good but left you too many times tearing your hair out, (if you have any left supporting us)

Myhre could be great, pulling out unbelievable finger tip saves then much like Howard he could do something what wouldn't look out of place on You've Been Framed.

Your right though at Howard's age now and having played in the glamorous World Cup in Brazil, you wonder what is left for him and if he has that Sam's hunger he had when he first joined Everton in 2006 under Moyes with a massive point to prove.

You get the feeling he knows he's had his near misses with us losing semi finals and the 2009 Cup Final, perhaps it's become all a bit mundane for him now.

Kevin Gillen
102 Posted 22/09/2014 at 10:26:06
Unprofessional performance inexcusable goalkeeping. A bad result next week and we're right in it.
MIke McLean
103 Posted 22/09/2014 at 10:40:36
Jim @101 - absolutely.
Jim Bennings
104 Posted 22/09/2014 at 10:39:01
#same hunger, not Sam's hunger.

Fuckin hell don't want to think about Sam Allardyce's appetite haha

Ben Howard
105 Posted 22/09/2014 at 11:24:51
Phenominally shit
Danny Jones
106 Posted 22/09/2014 at 11:26:17
This was not a smash and grab. This was a game thrown away by bad selection and individual errors.
Much as I like Roberto, he can't keep making these mistakes. Too many changes equals lost points.
Only one of the back four played in the same position as in the previous game (I believe that Jags moving to the right of centre is a position change as much as Stones moving to right back). Our three most creative playes were 'rested' and, on top of that, there was a change in formation.
Warnock would have seen the teamsheet and told his boys that Everton were expecting a walk in the park and were ripe for the picking.
True enough, Everton scored a good goal, thought they'd won the game and stopped putting the work in. That attitude comes straight from the manager. He overestimated his team and underestimated his opponents. Sadly, not for the first time.
Dan Brierley
108 Posted 22/09/2014 at 11:23:40
Jim 101, excellent post.

Tim Howard cost 3 million, so its hard to say he has not justified his price tag in the 7 years he has been with us. He has had some excellent games, and he has had some shocking games. What concerns me is not necessarily players making mistakes, it happens to even the best of the best. The concern I have is literally how the team fell apart after conceding. Not for the first time this season, as soon as we concede the team seems to roll over and die. Jags confidence is shot to pieces trying to fit in with Martinez ball playing style, so I don't see how he can succesfully lead this team anymore. Until some real leadership is displayed on the pitch, I can't see how the situation can improve.

Tony McNulty
109 Posted 22/09/2014 at 11:50:42
Weekend started well. Shite lose; Manure humiliated; Spurs lose. Three points had to be in the bag against Palace ... We go one nil up.

Oh well, another dropped stitch in life's fair tapestry.

Trying to forecast the result of any game this season - ours included - seems to be a farce.

Anto Byrne
110 Posted 22/09/2014 at 11:46:25
IÂ’m not sure how we can blame Martinez; we all know that Howard is a show-pony shot-stopper. The Wolfsburg goal was only going to one place and he was nowhere near it. He was reckless with the penalty and did the same with Sunderland and got sent off. The high cross had his name on it but he chose not to deal with it but itÂ’s not the first time he has got into a flap. He is one player you just canÂ’t trust.

If his form continues then we can’t carry him, he is always an accident waiting to happen. He has been a good keeper but far from the best we have had. I would even put George Wood and Jim Arnold ahead of him – even Dai Davies, and that’s saying something. Not my favourite player by a long shot. Sometimes your time is just up.

Jim Knightley
111 Posted 22/09/2014 at 12:19:30
Woah, one bad game and the condemnation is back. I wonder if we’d want to get rid of Lukaku so quickly? or Mirallas? Let’s ignore the generally excellent season last year, Howard’s heroics on Thursday and his exemplary World Cup performances. Hart, Cech, De Gea, Lloris have certainly not made any howlers in recent seasons? He is a very good goalkeeper, and I’d pick him over the majority in the Premier League.

This was a piss-poor result again. We had a perfect chance this weekend to move past the likes of Liverpool, Spurs and United..but stumbled as we often seem to when bigger moments come. I understand, but also do not understand, the resting of players. Unless we are not fully concentrating on the league this year, it seemed more sensible to rest them at Swansea, especially given what happened against Palace last season. Retrospect is a wonderful thing of course, but I can’t help but think dropping a superb Naismith and Mirallas was not the best idea. Unfortunately this is the kind of obstacle we will face this season, with Thursday football causing tiredness and cutting down on preparation time. It’s what I have argued will prevent any genuine top four challenge, which would be a shame given how fragile United and Lpool look.

It’s early days though, and these results happen in the early games in particular. This weekend has been a perfect example of that. Unfortunately, I think United and Liverpool will only get stronger, as they’ve gone through serious transition in terms of numbers. We haven’t, with largely the same squad as last season, and consequently it’s very disappointing to lose like this, and lose invaluable points in the process. Hopefully we overturn it all with the result we will crave next weekend, against a Liverpool side looking extremely fragile at the back, and with fragile confidence.

Mike Green
112 Posted 22/09/2014 at 12:50:13
Jim #101 - Howard did make a big point that he sees that he's got four years left, after which he will go into coaching and charity work. His remaining ambitions are to play in the next World Cup and win something with Everton, which I believe from they way he talked about it is something he's very passionate about.

My concern isn't his desire it's because he looks like a man who's expects to have a good game because he's Tim Howard, rather than concentrating on the performance itself and literally taking his eye off the ball.

Charles Brewer
113 Posted 22/09/2014 at 12:41:05
It seems to me that the main problem lies in coaching and tactics.

We know from last season (and the previous half dozen) that this group of players is capable of holding off just about any opposition. However, if they are in the wrong places, in the wrong formation or failing to keep up with good practices, they are vulnerable.

Martinez has brought a much better attitude to attacking midfield and forward play, but does not seem to have much idea about defensive play (and set pieces, come to that).

The best goalkeeper I have ever seen (even including Southall etc) was Peter Schmeichel. His attitude was that if the ball was in, or was going to be in, the penalty area, it was going to be his. Anyone in the way would be run over or crashed through, and if an opponent was entering the area with the ball under control, Schmeichel was running at him, arms outstretched and fearless. He didn't excel at shot stopping (though the fearlessness meant he was pretty good), but he did intimidation with the best.

Howard, on the other hand seems to get agoraphobia outside the goal area, and frequently won't even leave the goal line. This means that opposing forwards know they won't be clattered or smashed out of the way, so they are willing to take those personal risks which mean they will sometimes get shots off. And by failing to approach players, the angle for shooting is that much wider. Yes, there is a risk of being lobbed, but there are very very few successful lobs and chips made by moving players (essentially you need to be a Rooney or van Persie to pull that one off, and you'll still miss most of the time).

Everton needs to appoint a defensive coach who can take appropriate responsibility for ensuring a coherent, co-ordinate and fearless defence.

Joseph Clarke
114 Posted 22/09/2014 at 12:40:59
Howard is a decent keeper. He saved us on many occasions last season. He is not the problem.

The DNA of this team appears to be the bigger worry. No energy, no intensity. Not enough of the desire that winners in any sport must have. Picking on individuals, is valid at times, but I think there are deeper, more worrying things about the approach of this team and these players, collectively. We needed about 6 players to add to last seasonÂ’s squad, including a young, talented keeper for the near future...

I love Martinez. He seems to have the qualities to be successful. This season will make that judgement. He doesnÂ’t have much time... The problems were there from the start of the season, and even some of last season. But he has not put it right yet.

The gloom in my Evertonian heart started when the transfer window closed, and also, by the way, when I read that Duncan Ferguson had been promoted to his present post. Not confident of beating Liverpool. But we live in hope. COYB

Mike Green
115 Posted 22/09/2014 at 13:15:18
Charles #113 - 'Everton needs to appoint a defensive coach who can take appropriate responsibility for ensuring a coherent, co-ordinate and fearless defence.'

Makes complete sense, especially as this doesn't appear to mine Roberto's strong suit.

The issue we have is against Wolfsburg we had one full back assisting the other full back for the goal, which was great. Our defenders can't be in two places at once though so maybe in order to enjoy the more expansive aspects if Martinez's philosophy we have to endure the cost if it too. Also, whilst I think Coleman and Baines can play the system Stones is still learning, Distin is fading and Jags isn't confident, comfortable or competent enough to execute it which, all put together, has caused real uncertainty at the back - compounded by, or contributing to, Howard's Howlers.

Chris Leyland
116 Posted 22/09/2014 at 13:19:20
People say we lost yesterday because of three mistakes and that you can't blame the manager for that.

The problem is that the players are making these mistakes week-in and week-out and surely part of that must be down to the coaching and training as these mistakes aren't being eradicated?

We are conceding far too many goals at home and a lot of the mistakes are due to our system and our short passing game. Teams know that if they press us we will eventually give them the ball in dangerous positions because our players are being coached to never hoof it out or away from danger but to look for a short pass to a team mate no matter where they are on the pitch.

Nev Renshaw
117 Posted 22/09/2014 at 13:28:44
Reading some of the comments on this site, some blame the defence as a whole, others blame Martinez. I see it as three attempts on goal, three goals scored, three individual errors. There's a hell of a long way to go yet. Wait 'til a few weeks after Christmas then let's see how we're faring.
Ajay Gopal
118 Posted 22/09/2014 at 14:00:06
Jim (#111), "Hopefully we overturn it all with the result we will crave next weekend, against a Liverpool side looking extremely fragile at the back, and with fragile confidence.". Funny that comment, because that is EXACTLY what Liverpool will be thinking! (smile)
Raymond Fox
119 Posted 22/09/2014 at 12:53:28
I agree with most of what Jim (111) is saying.

In hindsight (which is very easy to do) I would have gone with the same side that beat Wolfsburg.

I know we are passionate fans, some more than others, but let's get things in perspective, we lost the game, which in the context of that most of our rivals also lost, was especially disappointing. Every time though we lose a game it's like its the end of the world on here, too many verbally lash out at the manager and most of the players,

Palace's 1st goal was a mix-up between Stones and Howard, the 2nd was a Howard howler, their 3rd was a well taken goal which was caused by us pressing for a equaliser!

The first two individual mistakes cost us the match, but for those I seriously doubt we would be having this discussion. Is it the manager's fault that individual players cock up? You see mistakes by other teams players all the time, do you blame their manager for them? No.

Last season, with the same manager, the same players, the same system we finished 5th with the 3rd best defence in the Prem. What's changed? Why were we successful then and now, according to some, everything's wrong?

Top 4 with our Euro commitments was never a realistic hope in my opinion, it never will be unless we can afford 㿞m-𧴜m extra per season... Fat chance, we were rated as the 7th best team in the league at the start of the season by the bookies! That's our level.

As I've said in other posts, our form against the teams we have played against, stands up to the closest inspection, Chelsea top of Prem, 4 wins plus draw at City; Arsenal 4th in the Prem, unbeaten; Leicester beat Man Utd, drew with Arsenal; WBA beat Spurs away.

Liverpool, Man Utd and Spurs all lost, are all their managers no good?

If we are to finish 7th, we will probably lose 12 games this season, it's to be hoped that some don't flip their lids after every loss!

Andrew Ellams
120 Posted 22/09/2014 at 14:31:02
Maybe there was some scope to change the team from Thursday and in Coleman’s case there was no choice. But I can’t get my head around changing all 3 of the players that play behind Lukaku. Surely at the most change 1 and rest another before the game is up.
Michael Kenrick
121 Posted 22/09/2014 at 14:26:13
Some bizarre comments there, Raymond.

Of course we're discussing the errors — because they lost us the match!!! A bit daft to state that, had they not happened, we would not be discussing them... I just don't understand that 'perspective'. Post-match analysis is about looking at what happened, surely?

Some blame the manager, some blame the players, some blame the lack of money, some blame Osman... these are all just opinions, which this forum is all about, yet you seem to condemn them out of hand on a weekly basis.

Why would we care a jot about other teams' managers? Who ever gives them a thought? Yet of course we care passionately about OUR manager coloured by our own assessments of how effective he is influencing what happens on the field. Call me old-fashioned but I believe that's what his role is. What we all struggle with is that there is no definitive answer to that question... which is why we also blame the players when they make obvious and preventable mistakes.

It's not that 'everything's wrong' — but clearly we have problems at the minute wrapping up the points from positions of advantage in some of our games. People are right to be concerned.

Dan McKie
122 Posted 22/09/2014 at 14:28:16

Martinez made far too many changes to a winning team, which is bound to cause a loss of momentum and rhythm. Did he really need to bench all 3 players that have played behind Lukaku this season, in the same match? Not to mention 2 of those players have been in fantastic form and I highly doubt they needed resting ahead of the likes of Barry. This left us with an attacking midfield consisting of 3 players who have barely played all season, and never played together.

Yes, for the first 30 minutes we looked like we might get away with it, but as soon as the pressure was put on, we folded. If those first half chances were falling to the in form Mirallas and Naismith, I believe we would have been 2 or 3 goals up before Palace knew what had hit them, such was the confidence in the squad after the 2 previous games. All that is without getting on to reinstating a centre back partnership that had conceded 10 goals in 3 games, whilst breaking 1 one up that conceded 1 goal in 2 victories.

For me, Martinez is starting to cost us points. The poor fitness first few games due to the lack of a pre-season, the baffling substitutions in the first 2 games, where it seemed only like for like wide players would be replaced, regardless of what was happening in the game. He is starting to look like a man who will never learn from his mistakes, because he believes he never makes any.

Raymond Fox
124 Posted 22/09/2014 at 14:55:58
Michael, I don't see much that I would call BIZARRE! I stand by what is said in my post (119)

Soon after a match is over there's too much knee-jerk reaction, certain players are always useless, the manager hasn't got a clue etc. Its the over reaction that pisses me off. Yes, in football there's always going to be mistakes made, what do fans expect perfection every week. Two individual mistakes cost us the match yesterday, managers can't legislate for them, can they?

The nub of our problems are simple, the players are not overall good enough, because the club hasn't the finance to compete quality wise with the likes of City, Chelsea, Utd etc. I would have thought that was obvious to most.

Chris Leyland
125 Posted 22/09/2014 at 15:56:29
Raymond, your posts contain a certain contradiction:

Post 119: "Last season, with the same manager, the same players, the same system we finished 5th with the 3rd best defence in the Prem. What's changed? Why were we successful then & now, according to some, everything's wrong?"

Post 124: "The nub of our problems are simple, the players are not overall good enough..."

Harold Matthews
127 Posted 22/09/2014 at 13:57:41
Despite all the howlers we still should have won. Lukaku, Ossie, Eto'o, Mirallis, Barry, Jags and Atsu all had chances but nothing would go in. Personally I wanted McGeady on to open things up. Certainly not Naismith who just added to the congestion. The little Irish fella revels in crowded situations as he showed for his country the other day.

As for our new hero, Naismith. He was lucky to stay on the pitch against Wolfsburg and he was at it again yesterday when his bad tackles gave Palace a freekick and a breather. Love his workrate and general play but he needs a few lessons on winning the ball without crunching the man.

Howard has always been a nightmare with time to think but he'll never be dropped. That said, Robles pushed El Hadji out of first position at Wigan and may just need a run of competitive games to show his true ability. Remember, this lad doesn't even get a run-out for the U21s so his nervy attitude is not surprising.

Tony J Williams
128 Posted 22/09/2014 at 16:13:09
The nub of our problems are simple, the players are not overall good enough, because the club hasn't the finance to compete quality wise with the likes of City, Chelsea, Utd etc

Sounds fair Raymond, but what has that to do with the likes of the previously winless Crystal Palace?

Stupid line up and fuckwittish keeping by Howard cost us the game yesterday not money

Tom Bowers
130 Posted 22/09/2014 at 16:23:09
I agree, Tony, that the Blues are not yet good enough. Until yesterday, I was thinking that they did have a squad with some talent in depth to take us to the next level... but not now.

Everton, whilst second only to Chelski in scoring, do in fact have the worst defensive record to date in the Premier League. Having already shipped in 11 goals to London teams in 3 home games, one has to wonder if this is the trend for the season?

RM made a big blunder yesterday with his team selection and that is also a concern. Whilst it is easy to blame the back four and Howard for the mistakes, my take is that the midfield is woefully inept when not in possession, as they were against Wolfsburg where, on another day, Wolfsburg could have scored 4 or 5 themselves were it not for Howard and the back four. This is a problem RM has to resolve in a hurry given the schedule coming up.

Everything was looking good for this season until those two blown games against Arsenal and Leicester but, without a competitive midfield, they will remain an average side.

Mike Powell
131 Posted 22/09/2014 at 18:29:06
Three home games two defeats and 11 goals conceded says it all... that is relegation form. I'm sick to death of all this tippy-tappy shite – get it sorted, Martinez.

Atsu and Osman were woeful; Barry was running on empty – if everyone in the ground could see that, why couldn't Martinez?

I have waited till today to have my say because, if I had said what I felt Sunday, I would've been banned.

I'm not looking forward to the RS game... I can see them putting six past us.

Andy Meighan
132 Posted 21/09/2014 at 23:03:38
That was no smash-and-grab raid, by the way. The best team won and could have actually scored 5. They hit the bar unluckily and should have notched in stoppage time.

No, IÂ’m afraid weÂ’ve got a naive manager who thinks he knows better than anyone. IÂ’ve news for him: he doesnÂ’t.

Gavin Johnson
133 Posted 22/09/2014 at 19:28:18
Mike, I thought Atsu made a promising debut and made some really incisive runs apart from a stray ball that nearly cost us a goal.

I agree with everything else. It's relegation form that needs sorting, and Osman should only be used sparingly from the bench these days.

Raymond Fox
134 Posted 22/09/2014 at 19:10:49
Chris a fair comment, but the point I was trying to put was we were playing the same way last season, so I'm not having it, its the way were playing that is at fault, it's individual errors that are killing us.

We finished 5th last season, which was a pleasant surprise to everyone, I think I'm right in saying, we may still finish 5th this year you never know! Some of the older players are another year older, maybe that's the problem.

As far as my lack of money reference is concerned, I think we all appreciate that it's the factor that is holding us back from success most of all.

Brent Stephens
135 Posted 22/09/2014 at 19:59:02
We are where we were at this time last season - Pass, Possession, Patience but not enough Penetration and Pronto. (That last bit sounds a bit like She Who Must Be Obeyed – "Okay but make it quick"). We sorted that after a few weeks last season so why have we regressed?

I would like to see us do a bit more of the quick, long, high ball out of defence bypassing the opponent's midfield, if only to keep their defence guessing as to what we will do and stop them pushing too far forward, so making more space in the middle of the field for us to play the tippy tappy. That's my amateur manager's naive view.

Tommy Campbell
136 Posted 22/09/2014 at 20:00:40
Why can't we just be one of those teams that follows a good season with a good start to the next season. 02-03 under Moyes was promising followed by an absolutely abject season.

04-05 we qualified for the champions league then couldn't win a game for the first half of 05-06

06-07 & 07-08 we made reasonably solid starts but thereafter was just a nightmare until 2012 when we did ok.

We can't rely on trying to beat the big sides to bail us out. We have to beat those who we are expected to beat and, barring bad luck, should beat.

Darren Hind
137 Posted 22/09/2014 at 20:03:23
Yeah, the lack of money certainly cost us the five points we dropped to Leicester and Palace.

I be surprised if there combined squads cost as much as our center forward

Harold Matthews
138 Posted 22/09/2014 at 20:07:21
The only trouble, Tommy, is those teams we are expected to beat are now as good as we are.
Ian Bennett
139 Posted 22/09/2014 at 20:22:49
Howard stunk the gaff out, with more individual errors. Question - is it because they are just unreliable, have the opposition wised up, or is the soft under belly taking the pressure of having too many attacking players - arsenal syndrome?

The finishing side was too much, whilst the opening side looked unbalanced to me. Three very attacking players, Osman, Baines, plus some old legs leaves us pretty exposed. I think this is classic, we either score a boat load or we come unstuck, too much of a gamble IMO and a complete contrast to KITAP1.

Fraser Auld
140 Posted 22/09/2014 at 20:37:38
Howard is taking a lot of blame for the first goal but realistically, the ball should never have got through to him. Stones should've cleared the guy out but got shrugged off the ball. He needs to develop a nasty streak he's too nice.
Max Murphy
141 Posted 22/09/2014 at 20:48:53
After the hiccup on Thursday night - normal service restored yesterday.
Tony Abrahams
142 Posted 22/09/2014 at 20:47:26
I like Martinez, but I think he has had a shocking start to this season. His subs have been really poor, but on Sunday they were even worse, which possibly shows heÂ’s not learning from his mistakes.

Why change a winning team so early in the season? Especially one which has been generally acknowledged as not being fit enough just yet. Maybe the problem lies with the fact that he never gave himself any time off during the summer to refresh himself, but heÂ’s got to start making some brave decisions.

We havenÂ’t saw much of Besic, but he looks the type of player we need in the middle of the park. Can we keep persevering with Barry who although very good on the ball, offers very little in the way of protection to the back four?

We canÂ’t carry on making individual errors though, because the pressure is building on the team, and if we are not careful we could fall into a proper rut. That said, this team can also beat anyone, so letÂ’s hope the manager starts getting things right again pretty soon.

Rob Halligan
143 Posted 22/09/2014 at 21:11:51
A few keep harping on about the fact Howard made a few good saves against Wolfsburg. True, but this was only in the second half when the score was 3-0 and game effectively over. I'm sure if Wolfsburg had pulled one back, we would have had enough to see the game out. I Hope!!

Also I have been saying all summer we were in desperate need of a new keeper. Not for one minute did I mean to replace Howard as number one, more to replace Robles as back up keeper. I still think Howard is an excellent keeper, but like any player, goalkeepers can go through a patchy spell. No doubt Robles will play against Swansea, but would any of us trust him on Saturday, or against Manure? He might play against krasnodar, but then again we all thought he would play against Wolfsburg.

So for me we definitely missed the boat by not signing a keeper in the summer. My choice throughout was David Marshall from Cardiff.

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