Southampton 3 - 0 Everton

How can you try to shoehorn Eto’o, Barkley AND Naismith into the same line up all playing AM???

Very very odd.

Utter bollox again

I give up with the league now, worst season in year's.

I can't remember a single good performance all season,

Gutless shite no pace to our play

This is a bad bad Everton team face it guy's.

I am getting pissed of now! No desire! Another team that has a poor run if form! ’Dont worry lads we’ve got Everton next we’ll beat them!’ Oh is there any players that haven’t scored ever stick him on too and he’ll get a goal! Joke joke joke joke joke joke joke joke joke joke joke!

A well organized side should easily contain us and fancy their chances.

Playing for at best 10th and at worst a relegation battle until at least late March..

Its his boring slow pedestrian football or nothing..

Utter shite!

I feel for any fans who went down there today

Wait to attack until all opponents are back in the defense, then give away the ball in the center midfield after passing left and right a couple of times. The opponents gets a dangerous contra attack.
And, do whatever you want but don't hit a crossball into opponents penalty area... it could be that we actually manage to score.

If this does not improve in the next 5 or 10 games we should seriously look for another manager.
We have the players, but we don't have a strategy.

Our main aim now must be to reach 40 points and ensure safety, from what I have witnessed so far this season it ain't gonna get any better.

He can fuck off with EL and FA cups, concentrate on the league and ensure safety.

And if I hear one more person say ’But the Europa league tires them out because of the extra games!’ I’m going to thump them. They are pro athletes that are playing like they are in Sunday league!

SOMETHING IS ROTTEN IN DENMARK.

Besic played ok - I won't fault him at all. Barkley tried. It's time for Bobby to "make the transition" and start playing "the future". Stones, Garbutt, McCarthy, Seamus, Besic, Lukaku, Barkley... and "fill in" with 3 experienced players who ACTUALLY PUT IN A SHIFT!!! Naismith, Jags and Mirallas. McGeady as a sub. The old guard MUST GO!

Lazy, couldn't give a shit.

I don't care about the wages... the "undropables" (not a word....) Change must occur because that was the most unacceptable performance I've witnessed in my time of watching Everton.

How anyone can play Barkley, Eto'o and Naismith in the same team is just beyond a joke. I will be very interested to see if anyone can defend Martinez after that.

It's a young man's games and they were very youthful and enterprising and to be honest good to watch. On the other side, we are slow, ponderous and lacking any team spirit. There is no room for players such as Distin, Eto'o, Howard and Barry whose best days are long gone.

Thank fuck it's only football and we can put this game to bed and bring on Stoke. Still need another 19 points for safety and the way we are playing it's going to be tough.

There was one point were Lukaku looked like a Sunday league player had who had wandered on by mistake! I'm beginning to think he is. Drop him to the youth team until either he bucks up or gets his confidence back, which ever arrives first!

Something is radically wrong and it needs sorting out tout suite!

By the way, I'm a huge Martinez fan. He needs to ask some questions of himself after that.

I agree with those who say that we need to look to safety in the Premier League as a priority now.

Baines £70k a week, can't even take a corner, Barry on a 3-year contract, oh and a shed of a stadium too. Yeap things are bad.

After the third goal I switched to the Aston Villa - Man Utd game and saw more drive, excitement and passion in those 10 minutes then we have seen this season from our team. Where did our spirit go?

Nobody wants to watch robots retain possession by passing it in their own half and back to Tim 'I left all my saves at the World Cup' Howard. If Martinez wants to take control and show he's the Boss, Howard, Baines, Distin, Barry need to be dropped. Barkley needs to be played up the middle or kept on the bench. I can't believe after last season that getting to 40 pts will be a relief...

I have gone on all season, as a lot of other posters have mentioned, about RM's team selection with too many forwards and not enough MF players.

Eto'o, Naismith, Lukaku are all outright centre forwards not fucking wingers or MF players and so they clog each others space and cause defenders to surround them leaving no space for players to run into.

Lukaku is about as mobile as a bus with no engine and there is no link up play from MF guess why because there is no MF; they are all up front waiting for the ball.

Even with injuries he could have played, Pienaar or Garbutt or even McGeady would have done a better job on Bertrand but no he has to play forwards.

Time for him to get back to Wigan which is about his level.

Martinez, after the match. The performances have been crap all season.

Says it all for me.

Here are some hints. It played wonderful attacking football, scored loads of goals and was solid at the back.

Here are some more hints. It was confident, full of determination and didn't stop for anything.

Here's another hint. It had a manager who inspired his squad to all of the above and used the platform left to him by the previous manager to full effect.

That's right, it was....... Oh no wait, it can't be us, we have none of the above.

For RM's plan to really work, we'd need to have some Barca / Ajax caliber kids coming up through the academy, and his hyperbolic comments about the "jewels" he was going to showcase had me hoping we might, but it doesn't look like we do.

If we could afford to find and buy 7 more players like Barkley / Stones / McCarthy / Besic, we might be alright, but I don't see that happening either.

See how we go for the rest of the season but barring a miraculous transformation it has to be all over for Martinez. It's glaring to me that it's not working and if it wasn't for the fact we actually have a lot of good players we'd be in big trouble.

At least with Moyes there was a pattern of play. The stuff being served up is nonsense. Last season was a combination of a few factors that were in our favour. What they were will take a whole article to clarify but judge Martinez on this season.

There are three key points:

1. Possession is NOT the key to success. It may have been as recently as 2-3 years ago, now many sides are extremely happy conceding possession and hitting on the break. Linked to this is the fact that we need to play balls into the channels, and we need to cross the ball into the box. These passes may well lose possession, but they will still be threatening, and the defenders will often have to concede corners, throw ins or just hoof it away, in which case we get the ball back anyway.

2. Set pieces are absolutely vital. To be frank, you can be a pretty poor team, but if you can score off set pieces and defend them well enough, you will do well. Roberto seems to actively resent this fact, and refuses to be good at set pieces on principle. I need to find some stats, but I think if we were even average at corners we'd be many, many points better off than we are now.

3. Team selection should include substitutes and substitutions. There should be plans A, B, C, D, E and F. We only have a plan A, which is pass it around slowly while the opposition get back in position then close us down effectively. All three substitutes should be used every game, and not after the 80th minute. No matter whether you are winning, losing or drawing, the substitutes should be able to come on and positively effect the game.

Says it all really. Fuckin deluded!!!

Did we eventually make a sub?

I for one will not be renewing my season ticket if Martinez is still there next season. I don't mind getting beat by a better side, but Southampton were shite!

No subs used by RM sums it up for me.

Tactics all wrong, subs too late, he will take us down – if not this season, then it will be next. He is out off his depth.

I can not watch any more off this garbage. We have a great squad but that buffoon Martinez as not got a clue. I better not say much more because I will get banned... Martinez Out!

I’ve been critical of Baines lately, so I didn’t think there was much else I could say. Today, he was probably the worst I’ve seen him. He can’t defend to save his life - Hibbo standard really - and he hasn’t created shite for a very long time.

Someone mentioned Martinez losing the players. I’m not sure if he has yet, but, from experience, one way to lose them quickly is to not make any substitutions when you’re losing by more than one goal. This is starting to feel like Moyes’ "If we keep doing the same thing something will change and it will all work out" logic. Insanity.

I’m leaving for Australia in the morning and was gutted that I’d have to be up at all hours to watch the matches while I’m there. Now I’m starting to be thankful for the enforced break I’ll get from watching this shite.

During the reign of our last coach I argued that we could get some one better. I feel the same this evening.We look Wiganesque , and, sad to say, this evening I feel Wallingesque.

Poor performances all over the pith, a disturbing lack of defiance after the first goal went in, and a bewildering reluctance to bring players off the bench until doing so was practically redundant from Roberto.

In fact, I can barely stomach talking about it as I can slowly feel myself starting to seethe. I'm just gonna regurgitate some shite I said the other day:

I have, on a number of occasions, placed the blame squarely on certain players for making shocking individual errors, whilst absolving the manager of blame as he couldn't possibly legislate for the experienced and trusted senior pros ( who served him so well last season) suddenly turning into Frank Spencer in football boots.

However, we're now four months in, the players are still fouling up from week to week, and the manager clearly hasn't yet fathomed a way to refocus their minds and get them to eradicate these costly cock ups.

I still take the view that certain players have let him down very badly but, by now, he should really be making a better fist of motivating them and ensuring the same bollocks don't keep being dropped.

When Distin was temporarily dumped from the side, I hoped it was a sign that Roberto had finally removed the soft velvet glove and whacked on an Ash from 'The Evil Dead' style chainsaw attachment in an attempt to wake up his lifeless fucking Deadites . However, it now seems like the 'he just had an injury, honest lad' line might have had more legs instead. (Distin looked clueless yet again today by the way. Groping around, futilely trying to find his man more than George Michael when some twat turned the toilet lights out).

Roberto's trademark trusting of players and talking up of their abilities is all well and good, but even the worlds most donkey respecting 'Rag and Bone' Man knows there comes a point in the road where you need to bin the carrot and switch to the stick. Otherwise, you're just going to come to a grinding halt and be stuck sat on top of a grotty cart full of someone else's old shite.

Last season Martinez managed to coax a bit more out of his players by bestowing them with belief. Belief that they had the ability to challenge the top teams if they just took the shackles off. Belief that by following his methods they were in with a realistic chance of getting over that final hurdle they've fallen short at so many times before.

They didn't quite make it but the players clearly bought into his way of thinking. They played with a swagger and a sense of freedom that was sorely missing for most of the Moyes reign.

Liberation... by lovely little sound bites.

At the start of this season the belief seemed still to be there, but began to be slowly eroded by a slew of stupid mistakes. They did well enough at Leicester but switched off disastrously at the most vital times. They totally outplayed Arsenal for 80 minutes, only to panic when their teetering opponent finally mustered up enough fight to tear themselves off the ropes and have a pop back.

When the self-destruct button was swiftly pressed again at the start of the Chelsea game you could almost see the 'WTF? Maybe we're nowhere near as good as we thought' look creeping over their faces. That expression has never really changed since. It's freakishly frozen there. Like Mickey Rourke's mad rubbery rigarmortis mug, or David Copperfields disbelieving yet disgustingly smug 'cum face' after he finally got to shag Claudia Schiffer.

Since then, whenever it seems like they're about to turn the corner, another banana skin is dropped, kamikaze style, sending them careening back onto their arse again. You can see it in the ponderous passing, the unwillingness to take risks, the uncertainty at the back, the absence of fight to force their way back from the brink of defeat.

I also think Martinez himself has been sapped of some confidence. In a number of after match interviews now, he's looked like a more shellshocked, Catalan, Choi Min-Sik in 'Old Boy'. As though he's been abducted off the street by an unknown assailant, gassed, locked up in a windowless hotel room for fifteen years, then shoved in a suitcase and suddenly set free to speak about the game before he can begin to get his bearings. He's still trying to talk a good game but it's ringing kind of hollow and almost comes across like he's hoping to convince himself as much as anyone else right now.

I know injuries have played a part, as well as the demands of the Europa, but at other times the changes could stand accused of coming close to needless 'tinkering'. The constant switching up of personnel suggests he's no longer sure of his strongest side and undermines any chance of certain players finding their flow. Barkley, for example, has found himself starting one game, sitting out the next, playing in his proper position, sitting on his arse, being shunted out onto the wing, back on the bench again etc. Not surprising he's yet to hit his stride thus far.

So, for me, it's not as clear cut as saying it's either the players who are the problem or it's the manager. There's been fault on both sides. You can't absolve Martinez of blame just because he did better than expected last season and he seems like a boss bloke. On the other hand, you can't call Cousin Otis to 'go get the hounds ready' and march round his house to order him to leave town just because you've always thought there was something 'off' about him. He's got a squad of players strolling about on auto-pilot and performing like pride is something that doesn't currently exist outside a gay carnival.

I still think Martinez will turn it around and get us moving up the table, sooner rather than later. We've got too many players long overdue a good run of form, and a manager who is, surely, too smart to leave his head half buried in the sand all season.

I just think he needs to be a bit less Ned Flanders to nudge things along and the players need to be a hell of a lot less Homer Simpson to help him out. Kenwright can just carry on being Ralph Wiggum in the background until summer comes, but then he needs to get his rotund, cringe inducing arse along to the Quick E Mart and splash some serious cash for a change. A couple of bargain buys aren't going to cut it anymore.

Even those who were proclaiming this to be the best Everton squad since the eighties must now be prepared to concede that a culling of the old guard is in order if a consistent challenge for the top four is where the clubs ambitions currently lie.

I can't even be arsed trying to work out what's going on with our set pieces. One of Barkleys went about 60 feet in the air today.

Roberto needs to get his head out of his sweet smelling arse and knock some fuckin heads together.

Martinez to me has now reached the end of experimenting with this possession football that he tried and failed 5 years ago with Wigan and is just to bloody stubborn to change.

Absolutely hopeless management equal to Moyes at his very worst. This wasn’t even a full strength Southampton side and they turned us over 3-0. We have a 30 million pound striker who got about one shot off as well.

Fed up of watching us, this is the most boring Everton side I’ve seen in a long time. What’s the most depressing is you know Martinez will not change out his favourites. When under pressure he reverts back to experience so Barry Jagielka Distin are all certainties to start the next game. Average at home and truly truly awful away, we’ll become the first premier league side in history to have a 30 million striker and finish in the bottom half. At least when Moyes served up dross it was usually because we had a load of rubbish players out because of injuries. Martinez has the bet squad we’ve ever had in the premier league and they are playing like a relegation side.

As I’ve said previously we rode a wave of good fortune last season rescuing games with wonder free kicks, brilliant solo goals, and Osman, Pienaar and Naismith coming off the bench to change games. This season that hasn’t happened and Martinez won’t use the game changing subs. He’s deserves the chance to turn it around but if he carries on thinking he knows best and stubbornly sticking to this failed formula I’m giving up on him.

We can go on all day about playing players out of position and I agree but for me we totally lack creativity. Baines and Coleman are clearly off their game but they are fullbacks and not wingbacks from last season. We play two holding mid field players who rarely create anything never mind score which is fine if your top four have the ability to attack with pace and score goals. Today shows how poor we are in this department and nothing on the bench to change it.

A number 10 and a pacey winger for Christmas for me please...

Today exposed a gut wrenchingly bad team selection and set of tactics. It as a wake up call, exposing the lack of foundation in the team. Against Stoke, we must go back to basics (high tempo, pressure on the ball, work the flanks more, clear the lines instead of dallying). Set up a foundation and go from there.

If Martinez cannot set the team up to do this, we will get beat and he needs to walk.

There are no positives at the club right now. I wish I had high hopes for the cups, but this is essentially the same group of bottlers that have destroyed our cup prospects for the past 5+ years.

And none of the new faces look like changing that. Lukaku is one of the worst strikers I've seen. I don't carethat he's 21, despite his height he can't head the ball and despite his size he can't hold it up either. He's a complete no hoper.

I've got no problem with Lukaku, like some on here. What I am starting to have misgivings about, Is the fee, which is no fault of the player, but when you have dead wood like Distin and Howard (both past their sell by date) and the ageing Pienaar who we only see fleetingly these days. Martinez should have realised he had inherited a team where many were in the twilight of their career. I can understand that he wanted to keep what was good about the previous regime, and improve upon it. But nothing lasts forever and I now think it was a little naive to splash so much on one player and bring in a load of other veterans (Barry, Alcaraz and Eto'o to supplement the old guard. I've said on other threads I alarmed by the number of veterans in the side.

As others have said, I don't think there's no plan B if things go wrong. I would have played Garbutt today, or Oviedo, Pienaar or even McGeady for that matter. I don't understand a manager playing Midfielder's and strikers on the wing, when he has players at his disposal who specialise and the wide positions. But I think that has a lot to do with my other criticism, in that players aren't being picked on merit this season.

I still think that Roberto can turn it around but I think it depends a lot on the next transfer window and whether he can be a little more flexible tactically. Why didn't he play a 3-5-2 today so the fullbacks could push-on... At least we would have had a little more width.

"Nothing between the two sides" is the killer for me. Let’s start with the key difference that a reserve team wanted to win it and we didn’t and we can go on from there

Martinez MUST play players in their correct position. He MUST stop pissing about with the team i.e.: Barkley and Besic were outstanding against QPR, so let them continue to form a partnership. Don't shove Barkley out to the wing. Don't play Barkley, Naismith and E'eto in the same team. Play to Lukaku's strengths or drop him. Don't keep telling Distin and Jagielka to fart about with the ball at the back. If they aren't comfortable bringing the ball out then get defenders who are. And don't do a Moyes again by either not bringing subs on or by waiting until it's too late for them to make an impact. Martinez is quickly becoming an arrogant prick.

Centre midfield should have been the same as QPR and Nais cannot play in the same team as Eto’o. The defence is too old and as any chance of 4th place has surely now gone Roberto has to ditch the 30 plus brigade and give the younger players a chance, let them get used to the first team and see if they can make it. I am not talking about the under 18s (though Ledson looks decent) but Oviedo(how we have missed his energy), Garbutt ,Stones and with McCarthy fit we would have a more dynamic and energetic team.

As for style of play a passing game is fine if mixed with incisive attacking but we don’t have the players in form to do this and as so many are saying teams have sussed out how to combat that game and our lads cannot play that game when pressed high up the pitch. I like Roberto but he has to show that he can adapt. Kevin Keegan quit as England manager because he admitted he couldn’t do this - time for Roberto to be decisive, drop the old guys and tweak the tactics cos if he doesn’t the dissatisfaction will grow and we can all see that it is affecting the players. We do not want this to become a crisis and it will if it continues unchecked.

And I'm getting tired of all the talk of potential. With Barkley. With Lukaku. With the team in general. The players are not learning quick enough, and that makes me think that the coaching - and the intensity - required to move these players into the phase where they are realising that potential is not present at Finch Farm. it certainly isn't consistently making it onto the first team pitch come match day.

And I think they are playing to orders - any shred of spontaneity has been drilled out of them, I guess.

And they play in positions where they are picked - worrying formation (Eto'o behind Lukakuu, Barks and Nais having to go wide).

And they continue to play as told without any subs being used.

I think we have enough players of quality but Roberto is making the team less than the sum of its parts - negative synergy.

Roberto has in my opinion got five or six months to save his Everton career and he will have to wield the big stick asap - if that means putting in inexperienced players then so be it - we can probably just afford to drop points in the months ahead as long as we win another 7 or 8 games - but if Roberto sticks to the same script between now and the end of the season - he may well ruin whatever we had and he will not or should not be Everton's manager next season.

Everton are not the type of club that fire their managers so I hope we are not fighting relagation if they do .

Wake up. HE CAN'T!!!!!!!!!

I just don't have any confidence that Martinez is capable of change and therefore can't see a way out of this mire.

I really want him to succeed as I was promised sin miedo and exciting football, but fear this job is just too big for him and the fans will not tolerate his dour football style and patronising post match interviews for much longer.

If he can't see something is seriously wrong and that a little tinker or slice of luck will fix it; then I hope his staff have the wherewithal to get into the team and stoke them up to come out fighting ...the fans will always follow that.

He is proving to be a very stubborn man who only listens to himself, you will have to change Roberto or you YOU will be changed.

“We are to blame for the defeat because we didn’t defend any simple ball into the box well. Our record shows that we are normally a lot better in that respect and that is where we lost the game." Look at goals conceded Robbie.

“The second half we started with a good mentality and we had Southampton where we wanted them. All they wanted to do was work on the counter-attack." Southampton were comfortable all game, also they were winning Robbie so did what any team would do winning a game, sit back and counter attack.

“But it was disappointing to concede three goals the way we did. Clearly it was a day when nothing went in our favour because even when we created opportunities we never hit the back of the net. The difference between the two sides was in the boxes.” You make your own luck Robbie.

Martinez also explained why he did not make any substitutions during the game.

He added: “I did feel that the team was the right one to get back into the game. I wanted the players to show the right intention to get back into the game." 1 shot on target up to the 73rd minute says otherwise Robbie lad.

“I never felt that we were outplayed - it was a matter of the way we defended our 18-yard box rather than any tactical aspect.” They had half their best players out and still won comfortably.

Our problems are down to 2 things.

An amateur standard of preseason preparation leaving the players half a yard short and equally amateur team selection and preparation.

He might be a nice guy with good intentions but when have our great club ever employed a manager that has got his team relegated.

FFS even Pulis and Warnock understand the game better than this clown.

Hopeless dross.

Sack Martinez now.

Distin is finished we need a new centre halve to partner Stones.

Howard for me isn't good enough at all and with no one to push him a GK is a must for me as well.

We are really missing Miralles & McCarthy and we desperately need a clear out: Gibson, Howard, Distin, Hibbert, Barry & Hibbert, there can be no sentiment, if we're going to operate with the budget we have.

Like many others this lack of a plan B & appalling set pieces is starting to really annoy me. I'm also sick of seeing our players with the ball and everyone standing still waiting to get the ball.

What further compounds the issue is Martinez's post match interviews either he is completely deluded, doing his utmost to protect the team or he thinks we'll all swallow it!

The board fully supported RM in the summer and the 28 million purchase of Lukaku hasn't paid off, that said it doesn't help that we aren't playing his preferred game knocking the ball down for him to run onto, which may explain in some way his performances to date.

Safety is a priority, I'm writing this season off as a transition season.

Distin is finished we need a new centre halve to partner Stones.

Howard for me isn't good enough at all and with no one to push him a GK is a must for me as well.

We are really missing Miralles & McCarthy and we desperately need a clear out: Gibson, Howard, Distin, Hibbert, Barry & Hibbert, there can be no sentiment, if we're going to operate with the budget we have.

Like many others this lack of a plan B & appalling set pieces is starting to really annoy me. I'm also sick of seeing our players with the ball and everyone standing still waiting to get the ball.

What further compounds the issue is Martinez's post match interviews either he is completely deluded, doing his utmost to protect the team or he thinks we'll all swallow it!

The board fully supported RM in the summer and the 28 million purchase of Lukaku hasn't paid off, that said it doesn't help that we aren't playing his preferred game knocking the ball down for him to run onto, which may explain in some way his performances to date.

Safety is a priority, I'm writing this season off as a transition season.

This isn’t the Everton style of football we love, all blood and guts and EXCITING!! I feel like falling asleep watching us now. Taxi for Martinez.

I want to know why up to the Crystal Palace game last season all the pre-match talk was focussed on our strengths and no credence given to the opposition. And it worked. The suddenly all the Roberto chat was focussed on how good the opposition could be and the team bought it. Ever since the mental shift of focus we have gone backwards.

I enjoyed Roberto’s Sin Mideo approach but why did he abandon his own bloody lack of fear? Simply beyond me, and probably beyond Bill Kenwright too poor bugger!

Martinez has tried to shoe horn Lukaku, Eto, Naismith and Barkley into a 4231 formation before this season and its coincided with our worst performances.

The main problem is glaringly obvious...our wide men. We have been badly let down by our wide men this year, other than made of glass Mirallas.

Pienaar is finished, it looks like his legs have totally gone, this has been a season too far for him and Booby seems to have realised it not giving him any game time.

McGeady hasn't shown that he is good enough to be a starter in a team trying to get champs league or top 6. He had a big chance this season to cement a place, no Del Boy on the right wing to compete with but he doesn't do enough.

Atsu has been a big let down and doesn't look like Bobby trusts him.

Mirallas has been good when not injured.

I can understand starting the season 4231 as it served us well last season but after sussing the above players weren't going to cut it Bobby needed to change it and he hasn't.

A lot of the other problems the team has had this year is in my opinion because the team has been so unbalanced up front. Playing the players that we did today is basically playing a 424 formation - every time we turn the ball over the other team is running at our back four and two defensive midfielders, the other four are just stood fannying about up front. No f...ing wonder we're shipping them in.

Playing a 424 coupled with Barry looking like his legs have given up means our defence gets no protection. Might be that Barry isn't fully fit but if that's the case then why rush him back after Barkley and Besic did so well the other night? There are some bad decisions being made at the moment.

Again the lack of balance we have up front is contributing to Coleman and Baines having poor seasons - they haven't become shite overnight. Playing that basically 424 means they get no cover because Barkley and Naismith are all over the place and going forward its the same.

My feeling at the moment given the lack of wingers would be to play 433 or 4312 with a midfield 3 of Barkley, Besic and McCarthy. Upfront I'd go with any 3 from Lukaku, Naismith, Eto, Mirallas, McGeady.

If we don't have the personnel to play the preferred system then we have to change the system to fit what we do have and then buy/loan the players we need to play 4231. The big question is will Bobby do it?

Roberto would just reply "Pass".

No Fraser, going by his post match interview he thinks nothing is wrong.

The slow car crash started with the initial team selection and never improved.

Why can Martinez not see what pretty much every blue can: none of Barkley, Naismith, Osman or Eto are wide players and two of these are not even midfielders.

Starting with three supposedly as AMs was always asking for trouble. Even with the injuries the likes of McGeady and Oviedo (whats happened to him?) would have been better.

Besic and Barkley in the middle worked - why change?

Kone looked decent and fit - why is he not brought on?

Garbutt looked solid when he's played - why is he getting no game time?

Where the fook is Oviedo?

Etc etc.

We have decent players and should be doing much better. For me our current problems have nothing to do with players ages or injuries. The manager is simply not making the right decisions. Some of these decisions are so basic that it's getting really worrying.

If this carries on much longer he'll lose the dressing room.

In the last 5 mins Baines, Distin, Howard, jags just looked at each other as another attack was stumbling and actually all just shook their heads in disbelief. Barkley and Jags made some attempt to go to the fans, heads held low in disgrace , the rest just walked off quickly . They all know as does the manager that the performance against Southampton's reserves was nowhere near good enough. But will Martinez fi anything about it.

The manager looked clueless on the touch line and even the Southampton fans couldn't understand how we never used our subs.

He is not only about free-kicks and Peanuts. He has the second highest assists in the history of the PL for a defender. A large chunk of those have come when Peanuts has not been in the side.

To add to the point, we know on the other flank Coleman has been one of the best full backs in terms of attacking capability.

The issue is the system and the tempo. Both full backs need the ball to stick in the final third so that they have time to get up and down. They can't push on if it is being passed slowly along the back line, only to be lumped forward to a striker with no hold up capability.

They also tend to thrive when we press further up the pitch.

Its all about getting back to the basics and building a foundation. Bainesy still has the ability to be a major cog in the team if we provide him with a platform.

He’s been selecting unbalanced sides ALL season.

For me, and I know he gets slagged off, but McGeady out on the right, Oviedo on the left (even Garbutt) Barkley in the middle with Besic and Naismith behind Lukaku, looks to have a nice balance to it.

Eto'o is not really a link player; more of a penalty box player. He's certainly not a wide-man. Barkley is not a winger and Naismith certainly isn't. Mirallas hasn't been fit enough and Pienaar and Atsu are not of the required standard anymore.

We simply have no quality there, resulting in no width and this is making our build up slow and laborious since the players are not comfortable with their tasks and are taking the easy option of passing sideways and backwards in a congested middle area.

I don't think that Martinez's passing philosophy has anything to do with the shit performances. It's simply square pegs in round holes out wide.

I think a change of formation is due given the lack of quality there and the strength we have through the middle. I want to see Lukaku given some proper support, with Kone or Eto'o playing alongside him in a traditional 2. Lets accept we have no decent wingers, and put Naismith just behind them.

A midfield 3 of Barkley and Besic with Barry/McCarthy in behind then the usual back 4 would do.

Todays performance was probably the worst of the season...and I would include the 3-6 result against chelsea in that. The players look completely lacking in confidence or belief.

Having accepted we were going to lose the game I was actually glad we went down 3-0 rather than 1-0. A 3-0 loss is more likely to result in some kind of action from the players and I hope management too, whereas a 1-0 loss can often be brushed under the carpet a lot more easily.

It is possible and we have 3 winnable games over Christmas to get us started. I am not going to give up on this manager and, at the risk of annoying others, I am one of those who does think he is going to come through this deeply disappointing period. But he has to save himself and he has to start immediately.

Roberto stated in a recent interview that we will be firing on all cylinders come February!

God give me fucking strength...

Crap...

Lukaku = most expensive white elephant we've ever had.

I have been supporting Everton for 42 years now and what a disgusting, embarrassing, disgraceful and gutless result against Southampton today. There are not enough adjectives to describe how bad it felt watching this game. I feel ashamed of Everton. I am ANGRY as hell. Total crap! When Southampton got their second goal, you just felt a third was on the cards. I am fast losing interest in Everton this season until they provide proof, with a decent run, that they deserve my support.

Once Everton go out of Europe, this season will feel as good as over.

Yep, that's the issue IMO. That and we have no CB who can play the ball out.

Here's an idea... if you want to accommodate Garreth, drop him back alongside Jags. He can actually play a ball out from the back.

I like Bobby but he needs to make adjustments because this is perilously close to Moyes, with different packaging. Stop playing favorites Roberto! Don't be stubborn it's not working. Don't over-react, just tweak your system and play the proper players that will make the system work.

And play the players who deserve to play, regardless of age or money spent on wages.

This clown is not him

Goals will get you the points but defense will win you games.

Relegation battle not far away I'm afraid.

Frankly I'm fucking sick of it, this is NOT Serie A.

It's the fucking Premier League, I don't give a flying fuck what the football is like as long as its winning productive football.
How many West Ham fans are moaning this season about Fat Sam?

Let's be honest this playing out from the back tippy tally shite is hardly getting the juices flowing with excitement is it?

I like your idea better TBH with Stones and Barry, but Roberto will never drop Jags.

I have to say this too. As an American and a "convert" to "soccer" nary 8 years ago, I find that a hell of a lot of English footy fans really over-analyze and over-complicate things! I grew up playing hockey and also played some basketball. The similarities in the approach to these sports is actually very similar. I think honestly sometimes someone as myself can see a game and in a very elementary fashion see what's wrong and call it like it is. I really do.

My point to all that windy crap in the above paragraph? It's so damn simple! ANYONE can see it! Don't try to out-think everyone in the room. Get someone in the back who can play it out, don't stick #10s out wide, and play the players who deserve to play, not the ones with a "name" or are "undroppable" because they are on big wages.

It's so elementary this dumb-ass American can see it and thinks it's crystal clear - it's that simple. Don't over-complicate it Roberto!

RM ""- "we're doing ok, there's fuck all between us, give it 10 minutes"

Sub - "boss, that's 3, I need a run out and I can't do much worse than the shit that's out there, you've gotta give me a go?"

RM - " sorry lad, I'm sticking to my guns, they'll turn it round in the last few minutes.....blah blah, blag blag phenomeshite"

The lads on the bench must be fuckin' scratching their heads witnessing that shit and not getting on. Can't do their self-esteem/confidence any good.

Great minds think alike and all that.

Yet Martinez continuously tries to stick players in the wrong parts of the pitch, as if somehow positions don't matter. Well, if most of your game plan is to just pass the ball around and backward, perhaps he's right. But if your plan is to try to score goals, THEN PUT PLAYERS IN THE POSITIONS THEY ARE MEANT TO PLAY IN AND PASS THE BALL FORWARD.

McGeady can't get time on the pitch in a team with no wide men. The guy has his faults, but one thing he does try to do is actually take a player on and get into the box. This apparently goes against the Martinez philosophy. This was Coleman's greatest strength, but now he always cuts it back instead of taking on his man to get into the box. And when we do get down the channels, nobody is in the box to attach a cross because they're all standing behind the 18 yard box, expecting the ball to be played back out.

Lukaku has his faults, but how the hell is he supposed to score when he gets absolutely no service into the box? And Barkley is suffering the same as Coleman now. His first instinct is to take his man on, but you can see him thinking and then moving sideways and passing the ball laterally. That's a player trying to do what his manager is telling him to do and not doing what comes natural to him.

I hate this manager's style of football, hate it with a passion. I don't care if we lose possession, just go forward and attack. He insists with playing two defensive midfielder's yet still has his team playing cautious possession football, safety pass first, God forbid you try to force the defender into making a mistake or a bad tackle in the box. Game planning against Martinez must be the most enjoyable week of work a manager can get.

Barkley runs down blind alleys due to the slow build up. Teams mass their defenders in the middle of the pitch while we play so fucking narrow it hurts. How can you expect to play an expansive brand of football when you don't make the fucking pitch bigger!!?

It was staggering to watch today, as Martinez just stood there with his hands in his pockets making players warm up for no reason. Fucking idiotic management and plenty of us let him know it towards the end.

It's this single minded stubbornness and reliance on a system, a plan A that got Wigan relegated.

He needs to wake the fuck up and realise that you need pace, and wide men, and subs like he made last season to change games. This season is going to be mediocre at best, and that's fine as long as he has the balls to realise you have to affect games with changes. He go's on about flexibility of players all the time, yet shows none himself. Infuriating and baffling.

I think a big reason we're struggling & something I don't understand why RM hasn't got onto it would very much appear..... is teams know how to stop us.

They press our fullbacks, press us when we play the ball out of defence, because they know Howard Jags & Distin can't pass & know all they have to do is put two players on Lukaku, because his first touch is appalling. Also at Goodison so called lesser teams, Hull being a prime example will put at least two banks of four behind the ball when we've got the ball to stop us and then try to hit us on the counter attack.

Hurt the opposition with pace and power.

Best Everton team I ever saw was in the mid 80's.

At Goodison, Bracewell volleys a clearance out onto the right wing and Steven cuts in with pace and skill to score.

Simple but highly effective.

.

Somebody with a better memory will remember who it was against.

Hopefully RM will see now things need to change, starting with his team selections and followed by the comintment levels (or lack of it) show by some of our players.

I think a lot of our problem is that we have six or seven players that heve realised that is doesn't really matter how they play, they will still get picked for the next game.

In particular I am talking about our goalkeeper, whole back 4, Barry and Lukaku, all get picked even if they play poorly.

I am praying Martiez shows some balls and drops some our "star" players for the next game.

But I wont hold my breath

Subs in Naismith at the 10, baines Oviedo, Eto'o (I'd play him and him only out of position out wide if need be), and Kone. Jags if u r worried about the back / wanna close out a game.

Youthful exuberance, impactful subs. Everyone in proper position. Gaffers preferred 4-2-3-1.

I Dunno... Just seems so obvious and simple...

To you and me, and everyone else Jamie, to Martinez................?

As if that’s gonna happen!!!!

Kentwright should have known better after the debacles with Gazza, Ginola, and Hughes.

I don't think Martinez wants anyone to put crosses into the box; it often feels like crossing the ball is a last resort. Which means that wingers - when we play them - provide width, but almost no danger of crossing the ball from wide. Which in turn seems means that we don't get enough people making dangerous runs into the box. Which means that defenders don't need to track that movement. Which means that the play becomes quite static. Which means very little mayhem in the box for the other team to worry about. Which means that defenders don't bust a gut to close those wingers down. Which means that the wide men look up, see no movement, and end up switching play (via our centre halves and/or goalkeeper) so that the same thing can happen down the other flank. It's completely pointless.

I think we have forgotten how to use width to our advantage. Baines and Coleman got so far forward - and often in behind the other team - throughout last season. We need forward players to make runs in behind the opposition back four in order to push them back, and force them into having doubts. And that includes making runs when the ball is wide and in a good crossing position.

We need to remember how to release the shackles on Baines and Coleman, because at the moment they are giving us width, but posing no threat. And I want to see balls crossed into the box; if it can lead to three goals for Southampton today then I don't see why Martinez wants to eradicate crossing the ball from our play!

Reliable Goalkeeper

Defence there to ... defend

Midfield mixture of hard as nails and artisan.

Power and skill up front.

Sticking rigidly to the philosophy that football is a beautiful game and that possession is all smacks of Emperors clothes.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee RM.

Did I see it coming when I cancelled my season ticket? - Not sure/maybe!

Was I enjoying the best footy we'd seen in years, last season? - Yes/but!

Do I have faith in the whole set up/manager/team? - Not really.

Do I miss going to matches? - >NO.

Do I spend as much time on ToffeeWeb as I did? - No.

Am I still an Evertonian? - You bet.

So why the above negativity? - Nil Satis Nisi Opimum.

PS - What happened to the Blue Union? Seems that was the way change happened in the recent past.

Errmmm..

Tim Howard? Average keeper always prone to circus act behaviour.

Jags and Distin?. Past their best, were always just fairly competent not great.

Leighton Baines?. Nowhere near the same player of 2 years ago, forget all this assist stuff, his overall game has been average for too long now, his setpieces, his predictability on his poor low crosses always hitting the first defender.
Since the Pienaar days he's never been the same.

Seamus Coleman?. Having nowhere near the same impact or as strong defensively as last season. Was also poor during Moyes last season in charge (2012/13, was last season a one-off Jelavic style?

Pienaar?. Just read Leighton Baines.

Barry and Besic? . Barry too slow, good last season but the time seems to have caught him up now, is on too long a contract.
Besic has been quality but sadly is not going to offer anything going forward (not his fault).

McCarthy and Barkley?. Macca not been as good as last season at times, very good during other times, but again as good as he is, he's another defensive midfielder who never gets near offering a goal threat.
Barkley all the ability in the world but probably at this moment doesn't use it enough, not helped by Martinez suddenly thinking he's a wide midfielder.

McGeady?. Puts a decent cross in..now and again, but in the main has been frustrating shite that has beat himself more than any opponent fullbacks.

Lukaku and Eto'o?. Eto'o flashes of genius, doesn't have the legs anymore though to last him out and is wasted again by Martinez playing him out wide, a fuckin fella who's earnt his living as a goal poacher.

Lukaku?. One sentence needed.
We should have signed or tried to sign Wilfried Bony.

Naismith.. As good as gold, gives his all but again had suffered due to Martinez tinkering.

It’s like he doesn’t realise that the other team have tactics too.

Martinez seems obsessed with one particular style of play and there is no plan B when it doesn't work. Worse, he is shoehorning players into his system, rather than adapting his tactics to get the best out of his players.

Surely it is obvious that Barkley is best in the middle - he has his season's best match at CM then next game he plays out wide; Lukaku is a goalscorer when the ball is played into his feet and is never good with his back to goal; our two regular CBs are not comfortable bringing the ball out of defence; Coleman can not bomb forward with McGready occupying that space; Eto'o and Naismith are both number 10s who can't really play together; and so on.

There are other systemic failures: too many old players on long contracts; a chronic lack of urgency, pace and desire (Besic the honorable exception); too many undroppable players like Howard, Baines and McGready; a poor use of substitutes in what should be a 14-man game; a lack of honesty in post match analysis; poor man-management - being nice all the time is very comfortable, but can you imagine Clough and Ferguson behaving like this?

Clearly the team have been found out tactically and are too easy to play against. Something has got to happen in the next two months, either bringing in younger players to replace the has-beens, changing the tactics, dropping the nice-guy routine or a big investment in the next transfer window, or it's a taxi for Martinez.

I don't post that often on here but my message from the outset was that RM would do very well indeed to out perform Moyes in terms of league position. Sorry to have to repeat this but success in the PL is closely correlated with spend and we are relegation fodder on that basis, so why not in reality?

Last year was an excellent outcome, far above what I was expecting. We had one of those rare opportunities in January 2014 when with a bit of support from the board, we may well have brought in the quality that could have delivered top 4 and finally broken the glass ceiling. Instead, we got McGeady on a free and a 7 foot bloke on loan who didn't play (and maybe just as well).

But for all that, I'm not going to over react now. Martinez was a decent manager last year and suddenly hasn't become a terrible one. The problem is, he has got people expecting more than is realistic. Sometimes we will have a great season and be top 5 or 6, sometimes we will be a mid table side (which is where I think we'll finish this year). Unfortunately that is our position in the pecking order.

We do have some decent players. I think the problem is as others have articulated; we sometimes play them out of position; our tactics need refreshing because the players struggle to implement and in any case, other teams know how to make this brand of possession football a liability; we have players who have deteriorated quicker than expected who really need to be moved on and others who look demotivated and/or uneasy at the role they've been given.

The solution? Well I wouldn't start from here. For a start, we've blown all our money on a striker with a great shot and an eye for goal but little else. I think we basically need to try and get our best players on the pitch in a formation that suits them. One option is a 4-3-3 with Howard, Coleman, Jags, Stones, Baines (or Garbutt)- Besic, McCarthy Barkley- Mirallas, Lukaku (or Eto'o), Kone. Or you could play a 5-3-2 with Howard, Coleman, Stones, Jags, Barry Baines ( or Oviedo)- Besic, McCarthy, Barkley- Mirallas, Lukaku (or Eto'o or Kone). In both, Barkley plays a little forward of Besic and McCarthy. In the 5-3-2, the full backs are given full licence to attack and cross to the two blokes in the middle, with Besic dropping back to CB, and Stones and Barry moving out to FB.

Obviously our troubles are a little deeper than this. Howard looks past his sell by date as does Distin, Pienaar and to a lesser extent Jags, Barry, Hibbert and Osman. Players like Atsu and McGeady are, in my view, well short of the desired standards here. We are now especially weak on the wings, which makes the cuurent 3-1 formation up front basically impossible to implement. But wholesale changes are not affordable and we have given some of these longer contracts which we can't afford to break. But I think we can play a team that can get us top half provided we break this obsession with possession and make a virtue of fast transition from defence to attack. In particular, there is no point in playing Lukaku if we are not going to feed him with the kind of through balls that he feeds off or, as a fall back, get some decent crosses in the box, preferably before the defence is fullt set.

This young man lives for Everton, they are his main reason for living the rest of the week and his mother enjoys taking him, I wish Martinez and the players had the bottle this lad has in living his life and the way he loves Everton.

He will be sick at that performance today but unlike me he will never critisise his team and he will just get on with it and be back for more against Stoke. I'd like to think that the players would understand and appreciate supporters like this young man, I think too many of them couldn't give a f--k. I,m starting to lose heart with the situation at Everton but seeing this young man and his love for The Blues gives me the encouragement to carry on supporting Everton.

Not for the first time this season - and at this current rate not the last - Everton found themselves on the backfoot before the first whistle had sounded with Martinez's changes causing problems.

The failure of the original set up was bad enough with too many players out of position and hampered by the tactics afforded them. That the same shambolic mess remained untouched through the 90 mins was inexcusable. There is no justification for these bedraggled players to plough aimlessly through the entire match.The manager has to attempt to alter the flow of the match; simply disowning this is not acceptable

This last comment really shows what myself and a number of supporters are begining to realise'

Perhaps most alarmingly of all is Martinez's inability to acknowledge what appears right under his nose.

We started this year as one of the best placed teams to push on having kept together the key players of what was a top-4 challenging side from 13-14 and added Besic, Eto'o and Atsu.

Yet somehow we started the season looking like a team that had hardly played together and was out of condition. Our passing game appears to have gone from pretty slow to utterly pedestrian and one or two performances aside we're getting outfought and outthought tactically by anyone half decent (if QPR had Austin on Monday it'd have been a different story).

Having our tactics found out is forgiveable, it happens to every team at one point (even the mighty Spain and Barcelona went a little stale of late), failing to adapt or have a Plan B is utterly shameful. And unfortunately that's where it appears we are right now.

Once the transfer window is over, Martinez job is to define playing strategy (which isn't working currently), motivate the players (ditto) and then make changes during the match (ummm). Right now I'd say he's falling short on all 3. The results are bad, the performances are bad and it looks like the moral at the club is slipping fast (fans and players alike).

What's going to change? I don't know.
A more direct plan B and actually practising set pieces would be a start.

e.g. for Coleman compare versus Marc Hottiger, for Barkley look at Scott Gemmill, For Besic you look at Mark Pemberton, Distin Carl Tiler. I haven’t even got onto Claus Thomsen!

Do you know I could go on for a long, long, long time but I am steadily depressing myself that we are now seeing the end our tenure at the Top 6 end of the three groupings of clubs in the PL.

The 2004/05 squad lets be fair, limited but they actually finished 4th.

Sometimes you get a freak season, don't you recall Ipswich finishing 5th in 2000?

What happened last season is totally irrelevant to what's happening here and now,

If you look at our form throughout the whole calender year of 2014, the good 7 match winning run aside, we have had some truly shocking results and some of the worst performances for a long long time.

Although we were poor Against QPR, the one real positive was the Besic/Barkley partnership. it offered new hope. people around me were actually opened mouthed when we found out he 'd split them up.

I'll give reading all the other post a miss until tomorrow, I don't think I could bear to read the usual suspects bleating about the players letting the their hero down.

"raised expectations "my arse he 's slowly but surely destroying all hope.

I've been saying all season that this group of players should be fighting for Champions league qualification and if we had a manager who was up to it They would be

So, due to a longstanding family commitment, I never saw the game today. But, I can see the total vitriol being projected towards the manager on here. I can't defend him, because haven't seen the game.

Maybe Bobby is best suited to the Spanish game? The PL is not a passing League unless you have the players. We don't.

I don’t really get your point. If you are saying that the players are basically rubbish and are only now showing where they should be then sorry I just don’t buy that because it is not borne out by anything so far as I can see. As an example Leighton Baines has consistently been in my opinion the best left back in the country for some seasons and at 30 should be playing the best football of his career. I have to go back to Paul Power in the season of his life 86-87, past Andy Hinchcliffe (my erstwhile neighbour!), to recall a better and more consistent left back performance game in game out. Yet all of a sudden he isn’t playing the best football of his career and every other post above is calling for him to be dropped. Does that mean he was crap all along for the last 6/7 years? Were they all freak seasons for him? Or does it mean he is being managed badly, confidence completely shot, overcoached in a system that just does not work and does not take advantage of his exceptional footballing talent? I know where my money is and that’s just one player as an example

You run just to stand still in the Prem and bringing in Besic and Atsu is neither here nor there, and an aging legend, when those we are trying to beat have legends in their prime, isn't going to do chuff all.

This is all about the football, and lack of fight, isn't it? How can anyone argue against that?

But this isn't that bloke, its Martinez, the bloke who got Wigan relegated without an ounce of pragmatism and relied on 'philosophy' with the basics forgotten.

We won't go much lower but we won't go much higher either.

Maybe it can't be done after all. That makes me want pack it all in.

Totally disjointed today and I’m sick of the Ray Wilkins school of tappy-tappy, passy sidey, passy backy dross that’s been on show this season. Any manager worth his salt can overcome us this season.

Very, very poor, Bobby lad.

Doesn't mean we should disrespect the guy though, he achieved a record points haul last season. He clearly has some talent.

Can’t comment on the game itself Kevin, but I never expected anything when me Dar, showed me the team. Prentice had a go at the fans in the Echo, as has Howard, because certain sections booed, the other night. Howard Kendall on the other hand said he couldn’t criticise what went on. I wonder why?

My personal opinion is that QPR were ripe for a five or six goal mauling only for Everton to stop playing after they scored number three. How can you build up momentum for your next game, when you stop playing after a hour of your previous match?

Think he’s gambled on Europe, because a team will never gain momentum, with all this changing winning systems and teams. This lack of conviction has got to stop now, before it results in a total lack of confidence.

RM is trying to integrate our players into the Barcelona, Arsenal type system. A noble endeavour! One of our many problems is not just the lack of skill to adapt with some players it’s also their processing, or lack of really. When a Barca or Arsenal player has midfield possession there’s 2, 3 sometimes 4 players spinning, moving and showing in good space for the ball thus making the player in possessions task simple. Processing!

Today, I saw up to 4 players in a flat line up top, each one marked barely showing for the ball. If they received a pass punched into them they would be instantly closed down then left with the same problem our midfielder had. Who wants the ball? Most galling, I saw players not showing at all in the second half. If I I do nothing then I can’t do something wrong approach.

We may be halfway home from St James by injury time if RM thinks there’s merit in some of these players next week.

Four strikers.
A variety of midfielders including Cahill, Arteta, Fernandez (on loan) , a younger Pienaar, a younger Leon Osman.

A defence of Hibbert, Lescott, a younger Jags with decent stopgap like Alan Stubbs ( who knew the art of defending) Joseph Hobo and a decent stop gap left back in Nuno Valente, and Leighton Baines.

Must be something about be an American Jamie cause I posted the same lineup the other day with Kone as the trigger man. Barry has to replace Distin now and when Stones is healthy than the erstwhile captain can join him on the bench.

1. They are soft defensively and conceded far too many "poor" goals
2. No substitutions are made when things are not going to plan
3. Everton have no other plan than plan "A".....

I sincerely hope you were watching and listening RM because you are turning us into a fucking joke, your signings are a joke, tactically you are a joke and for me you can walk away now.
How does everyone see what's wrong except you, we are the most boring team to watch in the PL, players are showing not an ounce of effort or pride for the shirt and you come out on the post match interview saying there was nothing between the teams today - how about 3 fucking goals you dim wit.

Darren, you may be surprised.

This man could get us relegated. I will be happy to eat those words again but he seems to me to be totally uninspiring , unimaginative and arrogant.

Here's one for you Andy 'Everton were 1st team not to make any subs in a PL game this season. Last team to do it was Arsenal v Chelsea Dec 2013."

Apart from that there is nothing between them to use the phrase of the moment (sigh)

A manager needs time and I gave Moyes years. However, during those five years I never got the feeling that I have this evening; that our coach is out of his depth.

There’s a reason people don’t watch the Italian league: it’s because they all play this crap slow style of play with no end product!!

I haven't posted as a knee jerk today, but I'm very concerned now.

Southampton are having a really good season but looked like today's result was handed to them on a plate other than anything else. They, like Spurs the other week have been in bad form for the past half a dozen games and they turn us over easily from what I hear and have seen.

Woeful defending. No fight. No real cohesion. From what I can see.

The problem we've got is we seem to have forgotten that the little netty things at either end are what matter, not the green expanse in the middle.

The players and manager need to sort themselves out - and that doubling goes for the likes of Jags and Baines who are England Internationals FFS.

During the last 10-15 minutes of the match, you could see McGeady sitting on the bench in full tracksuit, looking like he was on the couch watching a match. I would have assumed that if Martinez did make a sub then McGeady was one of two people probably going on, the other being Kone.

If he was sitting there, not warmed up and not even looking like he was an option, it occurs to me that he probably knew the subs weren't going to be made, which is a lot more alarming than it sounds. Either that, or he also just doesn't care. I've been in the "don't care" situation before playing rugby, and the only thing that causes that is when you don't care what the manager thinks of you.

Strange no subs used today, lets say we put Kone or Mcgeedy on and still a same scoreline, how many would be screaming why did we take whoever off and put those two on.

I for one would like to see Kone start next game and use Lukaku as hopefully an impact sub.

Howard knows he only has Robles in contention so maybe bring in a keeper in January and get Tim some competition.

Martinez has to hold his hands up for this one, if its not working after 65 mins and your acouple of goals down you make changes, very very strange no subs used.

No denying Barry was central to our success last season; a true pro dropped in front of an experienced backline. Can't recall any "bedding in" period. Barry fit right in and Roberto wanted him back.

So, here we sit now with a player the manager wanted, the Club tacked an extra year on to get him, and anyone think our manager is going to sit him?

Well "anyone", think again. The owners aren't going to sit and watch the games and at some point realize the 32-year old they signed, at the insistence of their manager, is sitting and watching too.
On a top-of-the-budget three year contract.

Barry plays unless he's injured.

Everton use no subs Southhamton use 3 from their acadamy.

And I'm still not buying into the Besic hype. There's no credit in moving the ball as slowly as we do. Besic isn't immune to that because he shows up for tackles. The only two I'd give any kind of excuse to right now are Barkley and Naismith - they're playing at a different pace to the rest of the team. Once the strategy changes we can judge Besic.

Hopefully it's Bobby that changes things... otherwise it will have to be a new man.

With Merallis allready stating what he wants next season if we keep on struggling like we are he may not be the only one and we will be back to a selling club of our young talent.

There is no comparison when you compare some of those teams that had the likes of Tiler, Pembridge, John Oster and John Spencer in them to the players we have now. So why do I feel like I do?! I’ve never felt so dispondent as I do of late. We’re spoiled with some of the talent we have at our disposal, but it’s clearly not being used effectively. I can see us beating Stoke in the next game but it doesn’t alter the fact that the footballs become a bit turgid and stale since March. The result against QPR illustrated the state of affairs perfectly.

I think Martinez has to be bold and decisive and play people in their correct positions and not pander to Barry, Howard and Distin. Distin must now surely be dropped once and for all, for Stones or Browning. I’d say drop Howard but we haven’t got sufficient cover, which must be sorted in January. If I could wave a wand I would offload Distin, Howard, Pienaar and Gibson in January and replace them, but it’s realistically not going to happen. So the only solution is to be a bit more versatile with the formations and promote the likes of Garbutt and Browning and keep Besic or Barkley playing alongside the returning McCarthy. It’s not much but it would al least show a little bit of flexibility.

I'm a Martinez supporter and I've not forgotten that we got our biggest ever points tally under his tenure. I've scoffed at some of Phil Walling's and Darren Hind's rants against Roberto. At the same time, I've said on numerous posts that I'm not enjoying the performances this season. Martinez is clearly a talented manager or else we wouldn't have seen some of the best football in years. What I, and many others are commenting on, is that the team under his stewardship is slowly becoming a one trick pony that has been found out. And it's not good to watch!

Everton used to be perrenial relegation dodgers. If we don't want to go back to that then we need a new manager right now or RM is going to dig in like a flea on a dog and turn us into Wigan II until eventually a bullet catches us and down we'll go just like Wigan I never to return.

"The failure of the original setup was bad enough, with too many players out of position and hampered by the tactics afforded them. That the same shambolic mess remained untouched throughout the 90 minutes was inexcusable. There is no justification for allowing these bedraggled players to plough aimlessly through the entire match. The manager has to attempt to alter the flow of the match; simply disowning it is not acceptable."

Pretty much sums it up for me. I don't know what point BBS was trying to make today with his bench management (or lack thereof) but he now has everyone looking at him. Your move Bobby - better make it a good one.

Pretty much captures everything most of are experiencing at the moment.

Four things I said in here before the season started 1) we need another wideman 2) we need a right back 3) we need another centre half. More than anything we need to stop picking players on reputation rather than form. Drop Distin, Eto'o, Barry, Howard and BAINES. Yes Baines, as I am getting fed up with all the apologists who go about the absence of Pienaar bejng the reason has has been utterly shit this season. He is an established international so should be able to adapt to anyone in front of him.

Team for next week - Robles (we are deperate!), Coleman, Stones, Jagielka, Garbutt, Besic, McCarthy (or Ross), Miralles (or McGeady), Oviedo, Ross (or Naismith), Lukaku. That team has pace, legs, talent and will beat Stoke.

January transfer window I'd enquire about Ruddy or Marshall.

Seems like Roberto is falling into this trap....!!!! It is clear our playing style has to change. At this rate, 41 points will be a major achievement.

Not a lot to ask!

I think you are missing the point about Baines. The problem is the way Martinez is setting up the team. A three of Barkley, Eto'o and Naismith gives no width and it's been the same for weeks. It's no coincidence that Seamus is equally ineffective in this set up.
Last year we were at our best with Mirallas and either Pienaar, Defoleu or Osman in wider positions. We had width whereas at the moment we are predictable with everything down the centre.
What's even more staggering is the failure to make any changes when it patently wasn't working.
I don't think it is any surprise that PL teams have worked us out but we have prospered in Europe.

Can’t comment on something I haven’t seen, but I will say this....And it’s something I had hoped to never to say again.

I hope we make it to the 40 point, safe level, this season.

Howard is at a stage of his career now where he knows this is his last club and basically he probably knows he has maybe two more season's left ( he should be replaced next summer in my opinion)

The fella has lost the hunger and focus that he had during the early few years in his Everton career.
He also probably knows he's never going to achieve anything that he has already at Everton, at best a top 10 this season and top 7 next with one or two cup runs.

We need to look at replacing Howard at some point in 2015, not with another poor sub keeper but with someone who IS going to replace him.

Too many things to moan about but watching Lukaku not jump for a header that hit him and went in our net makes me feel a bit sad. The guys out record signing and at 6ft 4 shows so little desire to win balls in the air. Compare that with the smaller Shane Long who out jumps two players to knock down the ball for their second goal.

I can handle players having limited skills but showing limited desire and determination is simply not the Everton I know and love. I'm afraid that desire flows from the top. I'm looking at you Roberto.

I know we are a tiny representation of Evertonins, and may not be atypical but by any TW standard that means there are a lot of people very worried at the moment.

We are getting into Moyes leaving / Rooney coming back territory on the barometer. Not good.

Lukaku may not be a big central defender, but he is a big strong striker that should at the very least, have JUMPED.

The fact he practically ducked out of the challenge full stop was deeply distressing in all honesty.

It also tells me that the main problem with Lukaku is the lack of aggression, the fire in the belly.
He has ability, he can score goals, but he lacks at this moment in time the vital ingredient needed for any player to succeed...Passion.

Don't even get me started on that inept defending, or should we say non-defending?

The woeful inability of Jags and Distin to actually get off the ground and attempt stopping Southampton.
The "go on just cross the ball into our box" attitude of the fullbacks, or whoever was meant to be closing Southampton's wide players down.

Do we ever get close to opponent's to stop the crosses coming in enough?. A resounding no..

As for Barry an centre half?.
Sure another guy who can't jump and is hardly renowned for his heading ability.

Its not even fair that we should expect John Stones to be the instant saviour at his age, he is a fine young footballer but has been interrupted by injury this season.
Even Stones, wonderful he is on the ball, he is not what you would call an old fashioned stopper.

We need to be looking at signing a central defender to eventually partner John Stones.

Kevin #371 - key part of that being "mini crisis". We’re obviously in a rut and have been for a while but it’s nothing a re-jig of tactics / personnel won’t cure. 3-0 is better than a narrow defeat in that regard.

Is a season of transition after last year’s heroics an unforgivable sin?!
Obviously not, from reading some of this stuff but then pessimism always does allow for the classic "I told you so" / "happy to be proved wrong" double act I guess.

Always easier to be a pessimist as you win either way.

I've been a great fan of Distins but his time is well and truly up. I don't have much faith in Alcaraz being the answer and would happily see Stones starting and Jags and a new face with quality fighting it out for the second birth.

Most great CB partnerships have a hard man and a flair player that can play the ball out of defence. I think Stones will grow into the second of those roles with distinction, we've just got to find the other one. Jags you would think would fit the bill but to be honest you've got to let him be him and boot it if he wants to now and again, he's just not a flair player.

What would you think of a partnership of one of Shawcross or Curtis Davies next to Stones?

I hope one day in the future Browning will become that man butuit won’t be yet, few years experience needed possibly on loan in the Championship.

He's still a top player but one being played in a plodding team. Yesterday was the first time I've seen his frustration boil over with the sheer lack of pace in our game. How many times was the ball played to him so slowly that he had to wait for it? When did anyone play 3 or 4 quick passes to open up space ahead of him?

When the game plan is the way it is then Baines and Coleman are completely wasted. We go from Centre back to our two deep lying midfielders who invariably have 5 touches and roll it straight back. Teams are playing on this. Let the centre backs have possession and press Baines and Coleman if they get it. At the moment that can't fail. We need to find a way to play out that isn't so slow and predictable.

I don't think there's a player in the world who could replace Baines right now and perform from that position.

Blinkered, delusional and a one-trick pony; we have some great young players but it seems you’ve lost the squad and now a big section of the fans. The Wolfsburg and QPR wins simply papered over the cracks...

In days of yore it took the fans booing and protesting to push for change, something which I don't like as it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Ahead of the watershed against Stoke I am desperately hoping that the criticisms via the web have filtered through and Martinez and the players adopt a radically different approach and come out firing from the first minute. Get the crowd on your side immediately and make this game our cup final. It could be a huge turning point enabling us to salvage something from the rest of the season.

I believe it's the purism in him that makes him play players out of position, not make substitutions when almost anyone else would have done and play certain players despite repeated bad form (Barry, McG inter alia). Stubbornness, intransigence and lack of insight are also words that can be used, but it's my strong feeling that Martinez is an ideologue, not a practical man - and this is the root of his strengths and his weaknesses. If he unconditionally wants to play the way he does, I think he's better off recruiting players from mainland Europe. I think some of the British players (Jags, Coleman, Barkley, McG even) don't really get the play-anywhere-and-adapt thing very well. With a large squad of extremely talented players, this might be possible - perhaps at Barcelona?

Even with a head honcho, someone needs to have a word at some point and question some of the decision-making. I fear with RM that his propensity to ideology might well block change - and BK is a very weak chairman, very. With the right personnel, his ideological obstinacy might well work (it did for a time last season), but he does seem to be digging his heels in. Mirallas, Stones returning might yet save some blushes - but he must start playing players in their right positions.

I do think the perpetual positive niceness is also a problem. I see that Mourinho is warning the ref today about Stokes's physicality before today's game. I feel RM would never do that ... and to our detriment. Soton were very dishonest yesterday, and the first goal should not have stood.

As The Stranglers said: 'Something better change' ... .

Coming back to the wing backs and they only really work with a winger in front of them, more often than not they haven't got a natural winger in front of them and have central midfielders out of position to try to work with who don't cross over to cover them running forward and backtrack to fill the void.

Going to the forward line and you have no balance with an out of form Lukaku being played over and over, whilst he has his back to goal his first touch is usually too heavy and sends the ball back a yard meaning he isn't turning to run at defenders, if you don't feed a striker ammo he has little chance to score.

Time to play the kids forget the salaries paid, play the guys that are ready to give blood if necessary not bend and hide from every challenge.

It was highlighted last night that when we lose the ball high up the pitch, teams break easily on us with Distin and Jags left high & dry time & time again. It was this type of play that got Wigan relegated because they had players like Alcaraz chasing back - we're lucky in that we have pace in our centre halves, but I tell you one thing, it leaves them so exposed and under pressure at all times, then they get pilloried by us but it's not exactly their fault - it's the system.

Martinez is a one trick pony, fact. He sticks to his guns, which in a way is admirable, but you have to have a plan B otherwise you lose games, lose face, and look like an idiot just standing there doing nothing as the game passes you by. It was like Moyes yesterday, just doing nothing to affect the pattern of play.

Infuriating. The system only works when you have the right players to play the system - yesterday was not the day, but he sticks to the same system week in, week out. Nothing will change, he will not alter his philosophy regardless of whether Mirallas, McGeady, Eto'o, Barkley, Pienaar, or Lukaku is fit to play the attacking roles. It's mindless - we try to play expansive football, yet we play so fucking narrow it's simply not possible. You need pace and width to play his brand of football, and yesterday he left our pace & width scratching their arses on the bench!

There was a shot of McGeady at one point, blosing his cheeks out sat there with one arm around an empty seat which said it all really.

The signs have been there for a while. I actually thought we were very poor away to Fulham last season but somehow got the points.

The players all apparently love playing for him.

Sure. Id love a gaffer that didnt make me do any dirty work.

We are a soft touch.

Was at Swansea at home at season when I first doubted "plan A" , they had a guy up front who persistently panicked our back four into launching the ball upfield, negating the passing it around at the back that we try to play. It highlighted our one dimensional, slow paced play that has been rumbled by the Premier teams. The Europa ones left will soon follow.

The smart suit, brown shoes, smile and "phenomenal" have a place, but more is needed and I am not sure there is more.

So, while there is time, and a transfer window fast approaching, I propose change. We need someone who is comfortable in front of the press, a proven leader, respected by the crowd, the players and the hierarchy. A winner, both as player and Manager, someone who has won trophies, who knows what it takes, knows the club and its dynamics, someone available with these credentials, and available at not much costs. Someone who can grab a club, shake it up and get quick results playing aggressive attacking football using power and pace.

Someone who can "come back for more" , maybe as a stop gap. Fellow ToffeeWeb readers, I nominate Big Joe Royle.

He did nothing yesterday, yet the pattern of play was plain for all of us to see.

Maybe its because no matter how badly we play, Martinez always finds excuses. For instance, yesterday, it wasn't just the poor defending coming back to haunt us which he accepted, but the lack of shots on target and slow passing style and lack of determination that was just as much to blame.

Once we go behind in a game we are so easy to pick off on the break when the pedestrian play inevitably breaks down in the last third.

The masses are really not happy and Martinez and co are going to be in for a real treat at home to stoke.

If another unbalanced side is selected followed by another crap performance, it could get ugly.

I've reached the stage where my faith in Roberto has come to a crossroads, am neither for nor against right now. He needs to sort things our pronto and finally play a proper side and use some proper tactics to allow the players to play properly.

The current set up is obviously not working and neither the players nor the fans are happy.

One of the problems most of us have is that we can't help but like Martinez so for a while now he's got away with some shite performances and shite team selections. Yesterday changed all that and for the first time since he became the manager the majority of fans are now asking questions.

What is even more worrying is that the teams around us are getting prepared for a fight yet we're becoming the whipping boys for teams we used to take points off.

I think the Martinez philosophy of playing football has been well and truly found out and we are all in for a bleak few weeks!

He seems a brilliant community man, a family man, a man of respect, yet it's reaching the point where his post match comments are in danger of dis respecting the supporters. He would have done so much for himself and the team to come out and say I made a huge mistake with my team selection, should have made subs and I got it wrong alongside a team that is struggling at present but we will sort it out.

It really IS beginning to look a lot like Wigan rather than Christmas.

He just needs to learn to be more flexible in his team selection, and pick a team to play against the right opposition. He makes mistakes and is stubborn - make the subs he made last year, remember those? Game changers. He looks a bit lost at the moment.

The Blue Union were never about getting rid of Moyes. Also, have you forgotten all the times we suffered an absolutely atrocious first half of the season under his stewardship?

We never ever mix it up, go long, direct or anything. It's the same play over & over again and that is down to the manager NOT the players.

Howard
Coleman, Stones, Jagielka, Garbutt.........
McCarthy, Besic....
Barkley, Mirallas...
Kone, Naismith.

It gives youth, balance and strength....

Martinez is making mistakes at the moment but let's not start with the 'Moyes the great' nonsense. We've long moved on from that time and I'd take the results of Martinez's first season over anything Moyes delivered in his last 4 or 5 years in charge.

Let's please stick to curent issues rather than rewriting history.

The sound bites that Roberto spouts are good when things are on the up. We all felt it last season after the usual downplaying of "40 points then we'll see" garb from OFM. But I'm in total agreement that Martinez can come across as patronising and grating with the post match interviews we've heard over the last few weeks. Things aren't rosy in the garden and yesterdays performance by him (I won't scrutinise the players, but blame the formation), His post match interview paint a picture of man who is either in denial or keeping up appearances and hoping this positivity will transfer to the players.

Again you can't call time on a manager who's had us playing our best football since we were in our pomp in the 80's. And while there's worrying signs playing a team with 3 number 10's that seems to be pandering to favourites (indicated by Barry's inevitable reappearance) we've got to see if the guy takes heed of what is clear to everyone else.

Personally I don't know the answer to that any more and that's coming from a massive Martinez fan, so we'll have to see, starting with Stoke on Boxing Day.

He really does not have to do much. Just select a balanced side and be more honest with the fans (realistic post match comments) and just let the players express themselves with more pace and urgency.

Simple, simple, simple. The players are good enough so let them do what they enjoy doing!

Joe Royle
Howard Kendall in his third spell that lasted less than a year.
Walter Smith.
R Martinez.

Royles win ration was not as good as Moyes's, but I did like Joe.

And it's very relevant, would you bet against Moyes returning? I wouldn't.

But in all seriousness, why would anyone want a manager back who won zero trophies in over 10 years and never turned up for the derbies. As well as any other game of major significance! Martinez superseded the ginger one's best points tally in his first attempt and for all his faults this season, has already got to the knock out stages of the Europa.

The style of play might work well on the continent but it doesn’t suit the high tempo required of the prem in fact I’d go as far to say this is one of the worst seasons in terms of football I’ve seen at Goodison for a long time and that’s saying something when you consider the dross that’s been served up down the years.

There’s not an earthly we’ll be relegated but then again we’ll finish closer to the bottom 3 than we will to the top 4 unless this stubborn fucker sees the error of his ways. I won’t hold my breath on that though...

It's not as if the feckless Spaniard's past record is reassuring.

Please take the record points tally last year with a pinch of salt. It was a highly unusual season where the division had a high proportion of very poor teams, 34 points would have kept a team up, 40 points was good enough for 13th. The top 6 were so much better than the rest it was easier than ever before to win more matches and this big quality gap created a unique points distribution last season.

Name me one thing Moyes won in his 11 LONG years in charge?

Also he was in charge for 11 of those 20 years. Martinez achieved more in his first season than most in a lot of his!

Moyes did an ok job, let's leave it at that.

We got to 4th once and yes it didn't work out, but then we were genuinely robbed by a terrible refereeing decision.

I remember the relegation battles, worst time of my football supporting life!

Had two years here where he took a club on its knees to a trophy and a top 6 finish with a team that played pretty good football in that 1995-96 season.

Royle knew how you need to play in the English game and signed quality flair attacking talent in Kanchelskis to add the icing to the tough tackling midfield.

The only thing he never quite managed was a truly outstanding striker, Big Dunc inconsistent at times, had we signed a player like a Les Ferdinand, Ian Wright it Sheared back then we night have won it.

I don't blame Martinez for any of this, he must have thought he was doing a terrific job. He was told so often enough.

I'd like to think the knowledgeable Evertonian can now forget all the "next manager of Barcelona" bollocks they've patiently listened to and get behind our manager. He is clearly struggling with life at the top end of the table, but he has a cracking group of players to work with.

I mean, all of them, as and when they're required, and not just shoe horning his favourites in to keep them happy? Barkley out wide after a super performance in the middle v QPR? Barklet, Naismith and E'eto all in the same team? Barry, a modern day Pembridge if ever I saw one, chugging about in mid field, strolling straight back into the side? No substitutions? Dear me....easily pleased.

Fair enough

We're only talking about the manager of our club, not what any manager did elsewhere. Fact is Royal won us a trophy and Moyes won us f all and was in charge a hell of a lot longer.

All a matter of opinion at the end of the day but give me a trophy all day long.

We can only really compare Moyes and Martinez once the latter has had more than 18 months in charge. (As things stand he may not last till next year!)

I hope the Spanish one can turn things around but if he's too stubborn to change his ways and not even select a balanced side, then.....

Andy, you owe me your house then. I'm definitely not an American and I've had a season ticket for years. I'll let you off though as I really don't think I'd fancy taking up residence in 'The Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Do Other Stuff Good Too.'

Besides, it'd be way too much bother emptying the vast East Wing library of it's entire contents: The Very Hungry Caterpillar, The Complete Can You Tell Me How To Get To Sesame Street, and Rentaghost Annuals 1981-1984. Fuck that, I'd need to use both hands.

I'd agree with the consensus that big Joe pips it over Moysie. We always turned up for the derbies, won the FA Cup when it still meant something. Also as Jim said, the season we had Kanchelskis we played great football and had we signed a "top" striker (no disrespect to Diamond) to play alongside big Dunc anything could have been achievable. If I remember right, didn't we nearly sign Collymore from Forest when he was banging them in for fun? I know things didn't pan out well for him at the RS but you never know how he'd have taken to playing for us.

I suggest you don't read back, its to depressing

Save your money Mike. You can have the signed copy I was keeping aside for Andy Meighan!

I am pretty sure that RM winning the FA Cup will have had an influence on the decision to appoint him as our manager... in fact I'd go as far as to say if he hadn't won it he wouldn't have got the job. So his past is extremely relevant to our club.

I looked up who Wigan beat to get to the Cup Final: Bournemouth, Macclesfield Town, Huddersfield Town., Everton, Millwall – basically a very easy draw, with the exception of us when Moyes had one of his worst matches in charge, aided by Neville who never made another first team start. I remember we were all disgusted by our team's performance that day, not amazed by Wigan's brilliance.

Having got to the final, Wigan beat a Man City side who turned up with the attitude that they had won it before a ball was kicked and they paid the price.

The point of my ramble, Wigan and Martinez had a lot of luck in that cup run and the result was he is now our manager and we get a performance like yesterday's.

When we went 2 nil down Roberto decided we could not come back like we did against Man Utd when we were 4-2 down. Not even given Stones, Kone, Alcaraz some playing time as they have been injured but keep the subs fresh for the next games and accept defeat.

If I'm remembering it right, an £8m fee was agreed and it looked like he was going to sign until the RS came in and hijacked the deal. I don't know if he really would've been the right sort of character to kick Royle's team on though. Royle also had a sniff around Shearer I think (I remember a supposed 'bid' being slapped in after Newcastle had already agreed a much higher fee) and fought for the unknown Tor Andre Flo to be brought in, to no avail. So he definitely knew another frontman was required.

Any word from Roberto today or the players? I've just got in so I'm not sure what's happened. Still gutted about our season.

Wasn't the failure to back Royle with the signing of Flo the reason Royle left? Just as the failure to sign Dublin led to Kendall going. Royle had agreed a deal with Utd but an Everton director pulled the plug.

We are now reaping the harvest.

Most worryingly it actually feels things might be getting worse rather than better.

I'm all for giving managers time but there are always parameters. I think it's highly unlikely Roberto would be sacked this season unless we fell very heavily down the league (not impossible judging our last few performances) but what would necessitate a change this Summer? Maybe if we continued playing as we are and finished below 12th? Or would he get the Europa excuse and more faith to turn it around a la Pardew?

Things can change very quickly in football but many more depressing days like yesterday and he will certainly lose the fans.

When he gets his own players into the squad we will reap the benefit.

He is one of the best young managers around. Now more than ever, he needs support.

On another note did anyone notice Martinez and Jones in the stand at the Newc/Sund game, I've read in various places that we are interested in bringing in Adam Johnson in January, oh I hope that's true and they were there to watch him, I'd have him over Del Boy in a heartbeat and whilst were at it bring Larsson as well, that lad is under rated and has the heart of Lion, something that were sorely missing.

Not sure about Johnson. Seems like he has gone backwards rather than forwards over last few years. Deulofeu was mercurial at best but I think has the potential to be a different class to Johnson.

I have to agree with Sam, Deulofeu has world class potential. I'm pretty sure that if Colin's right about him returning, Barca will ensure they put in clauses so that they can buy him back for a certain fee or have first refusal.

But lets take stock, anybody would think that Martinez was the worst manager in the world going off many of the comments in the thread!
We are now 11th in the table but we are at this stage in no danger of relegation (at least in my opinion).

He said when he took over that he wanted to play possession football, but I've no doubt he wants it to be played at a faster and more penetrating way than it is at the moment.
Which ever way you play the game, its the quality of the players that has the last say.
Why are the same teams each season occupying the top 4 places?

To suggest he's ignorant in the different systems and tactics is surely wide of the mark as he apparently watches football for hours on end.
He knows different tactics which was shown in out manoeuvring us and Man City in the FA Cup.

We are still short of at least 3 top class players which would make all the difference to our play (again in my opinion)
Say Martinez was dismissed who could we engage that would make us a top 4 side?
Moyes chose the more direct route of play and in general did an excellent job, but he could not break the strangle hold that a few clubs have on the Premiership.
Our biggest and long term problem is not which manager we have, its the size of our transfer budget.

Don't get me wrong we have some top class players, Coleman, Baines, Barkley (developing), Stones (developing) Mirallas (sometimes), Eto (past his best), Lukaku (could be in time but not a £28m player yet).
The rest are average Prem. quality at best.

BTW many of those players who you describe as average PL players achieved some good results last season and played some good football along the way - we've seen them produce those performances so the argument that they are average at best is somewhat perplexing - but perhaps individually they are what you say and it is only when they act collectively that they can attain the high standards they produced last term.

We don't seem to have the individuals that have the quality to overcome close marking and find a pass forward, we are 2 or 3 class players short.
Adding to the problem this season many of the players are not trying hard enough to find space to make a good pass possible.

As far as my comment about 1/2 the team being average Prem. quality,
how many with the exception of McCarthy (maybe) and the players I mentioned in the earlier post would get in a usual top 4 side, I don't see any Patrick.

What we are currently seeing is a drift towards mediocrity and nobody at the club seems to be concerned about it - as fans we are concerned and rightly so - a defence which was mostly reliable has become a little suspect 27 conceded in 17 games is not good reading and as confidence is falling that may get worse before it gets better.

Most of us understand that we will lose games or fail to win but when it looks as if the players aren't trying or the manager doesn't seem to see that there may be a problem it only exacerbates the problem - no team is too good to go down unless they prove it out on the park and that is the real fear - perhaps irrationally - of many, if the drift is allowed to continue for too long. I'm not saying we will be in a relegation dog-fight but for those who think it's not possible I would warn that such complacency has accompanied many a team on its way out of the top-flight.

All their 3 goals were from crosses and involved our centre halves who are the most experienced in the Prem.
I could have made a better attempt to head the ball than they did for all 3 goals, they were in the right positions each time but totally failed to get off the ground and deal with the crosses.

Fear not Geordies, on December 28 the football doctor will be in town to cure all your recent woes.

Don't we just know that Newcastle will get that timely pick me up against Everton?

This year everything just seems so much more ponderous. Instead of slow, slow, quick, quick, slow, it's just slow, slow, slow, slow, slow. So many times this season I've found myself spending as much time looking at my phone as the match on TV, especially once we're behind, because I just don't see any sign at all that we're getting back into a game.

There doesn't seem to be any particular logic for this drop off in the pace of our play. There is nothing wrong with patiently probing and then increasing the pace of play, but we just pass it around forever. The difference in the team when Mirallas is there is big, because he naturally seems to be quite a dynamic player, but that can't be the sole reason. It's certainly not helping Lukaku; he hasn't been great this season, true, but I can't really remember the last time he had a decent ball to run on to that played to his strengths.

I really thought he would bring pace into the team at least, but I was always worried by the lack of aggression and steel. Every player, apart from Besic, is 'nice', they're all quiet and soft, and if it doesn't change, we're in big trouble.

When that clown Whelan said that he'd take Evertonians to places they couldn't imagine, I was thinking champions league, now lots of us are worried it might be the unimaginable.

Just my observation..

When I were in Southampton, I noticed their, that they're possession football was better than are's and there keeper didn't have much to do. There so much better than us but not nearly as difficult to read as this post.

Just saying like..

I haven't read the thread having spent the weekend in Southampton, two things though, when we went 2-0 down why didn't Martinez bring on Kone who had been warming up for almost the entire second half, to at least try and get something out of the game.
Also listening to the Southampton fans in the pub afterwards they couldn't believe how poor we were and couldn't understand why Ross was playing on the wing.

There was a point yesterday where Baines got wound up, charged into centre midfield, played a few quick passes.

Howard
Coleman Jags Barry Garbutt
Barkley Baines
Aiden Nuts
Naismith
Romelu

I read about 200 posts on this thread and, despite that, decided to watch the full replay (as I do every week). It was horrible.

If I had to describe how we played in one sentence it would be "like a ship without a rudder". Which we were.

Then I read the rest of the thread. There are a lot of very level headed fans really concerned with our current situation.
Rightly so in my opinion.

Harold noted Roberto's comments "teams are taking advantage of the WAY we play". Perhaps it is more a case of teams taking advantage of WHERE we play.

If the ball is in your oppositions half they can't score. But better than that if you have two or three players who are willing to run themselves ragged and put themselves about then there is a good chance they will force your opposition into a mistake. This season, from what I have seen, most of our possession is in our own half. We are not a threat for most of the game.

The only time we do look threatening is when we break.

Roberto had two wingers and a striker on the bench on Saturday - Pienaar, Kone, McGeady. He should have pulled Barry, Lukaku and Naismith when we went 2-0 down and replaced them with these three. We would then have had a team of square pegs in square holes.

If I and so many others ( including the press ) can see this that is reason for us to be seriously concerned.

The West Ham board told Sam they wanted to see a different style of football. Perhaps it is time for our chairman to have a similar conversation with our manager.

Unfortunately you are 100% correct.There are no surprises with Everton. We will turn up have a reasonable amount of harmless possession – no shots on goal and lose.

How refreshing it would be if the team played with enthusiasm pace and varying tactics to confuse the opposition – not a chance!

Yes I am very disappointed.

I’m not looking forward to Boxing Day, or the trip to Newcastle, after yesterday’s home defeat. If things really go against us, 5th from bottom at Christmas is not beyond the realms of possibilities. RM will probably talk his usual tripe of "It was on a knife edge, could’ve went any way" bollox.

Too good to go down... where have I heard that before?

Anyone who watched the Newcastle-Sunderland game yesterday could clearly see how much passion Sunderland played with and what I was taken with is how much it meant to them at the final whistle.

When is the last time we saw Everton play with such a passion, hunger, desire and more importantly... A real tempo?

Sunderland are of course limited but any team can look half decent when they play with hear and passion coupled with a fast tempo.

I like Martinez as a person but I'm praying he wakes up to what is needed to get this season and the club back into some kind of "feel good factor".

Why two full stops? Or did you mean that to be an ellipsis (and was it an intentional omission?).

I don’t see us muddling along in mid-table. The players either want to play for him, and buy into his system, or they don’t.

A few more displays like the last few weeks over the busy Christmas period, and you would have to say he has lost the dressing room. Any professional sportsman hates to lose, and this crop are too good to be battling in the bottom half.

No system, or tactical set up can stop the players giving 100% effort - I can’t honestly say we have looked like we are leaving everything on the pitch lately.

Hate to mention this, but the redshite ran themselves ragged against Arsenal yesterday, you know they haven’t lost faith in Rodgers, even though they’ve been as poor as us lately.

The next few games will show where we are heading. Let’s hope it’s up the table rather than down, or things may end badly for Mr. Martinez.

I do fear for us against the thugs and cheats that are Stoke - managed by Thug-in-Chief, Hughes.

I partake of a few pints with a Wigan fan, every Sunday, and he informs me that their reserve strip is en-route to Goodison, the system is already there.

Just look who Roberto brought with him; Alcatraz, Kone & Robles.

Sadly, Our Bill (Kenwright) will keep an extremely low profile while Roberto
continues to destroy our team.

Roberto must be on some illegal medication, because he’s totally delusional.

Part of Roberto’s after match comments;
Martinez did not make any changes during the game and he explained: "I did feel that the team was the right one to get back into the game. I wanted the players to show the right intention to get back into the game.
"I never felt that we were outplayed -- it was a matter of the way we defended our 18-yard box rather than any tactical aspect."
Reminiscent of Walter Smith’s "It’s been very disappointing"

We all know that he has a paranoia of playing the Barcelona way, but this side and every fan I know is well aware, unless we buy the whole of the Barcelona team, it’ll never happen.

It may be me, but I think the lads on the park also can’t handle the Barcelona approach and appear not to have a clue what they’re supposed to be doing.

Last season we had a little rub of the green, but it was earned by gutsy performances, similar to yesterday’s Sunderland performance against Newcastle.

Our full backs used to be paired with the wide men and scared the shit out of opposition defenders, Seamus was leading defensive scorer in Europe.

This season they have disappeared into the ether.

The back four no longer defend. Distin’s sell by date has well passed and Gareth Barry, after his 2 year contract, doesn’t seem interested and is always a yard behind the attacker.

Jag’s has just lost the plot. (Never been the same player since his England call-up)

Baines has gone stale and giving Oviedo a chance may be the kick up the backside he needs.

Pienaar has lost his legs and skills, another Oldie.

McGeedy blows hot and cold, may be on the same medication as the Boss.

Lukaku, who may be a better player/scorer if the ball were put in front of him, lacks effort and honestly I’ve seen more effective Sunday League C/F’s.

The signing of a Quality goalie is a priority. We have a goalie(?) who does Star Jumps instead of attempting to go for the ball or come off his bloodie line. I suppose commanding his area, the 6 yard one would be an improvement, is out of the question.

Although I’m criticising some players that I have the greatest respect for and they owe the Blues nothing, they are past it, this is the Premiership and pace is a great part of the game.

Stones merits a start and Garbutt, & Browning must be blooded. This team of Oldies isn’t the answer.

Besic, not the finished article, but he’s getting there and at least you know he’s on the park.

Mirallas one of our few creative players, draws the short straw with injuries.

Ross gets back on the mark and Roberto switches him wide??????????, but was still our best player.

I think Eto’O, although no spring chicken has the skills to be given the chance up front with Naismith, with Barclay & McCarthy the feeder midfielders and get the full-backs and wide men back on track.

We have a difficult few games coming up and I am greatly concerned we could be sucked into the dreaded, we need 40 points to survive gang.

Games against lower teams, which we should be guaranteed 3 points, are in the January fixtures, but our worst performances have been against similar sides.

Hopefully, I’m wrong and I won’t need the extra pack of Rennies.

Nobody may agree with the above, but I always feel better after a rant.

Season’s Greetings to all readers, enjoy reading all your input and let’s hope it’s a positive

BLUE, BLUE, CHRISTMAS

Matt

My knowledge of formations and styles of play is way below most posters to ToffeeWeb, but even I can see the system Everton are attempting to play has little chance of success based on the players Everton have available.

The Soldado goal was the worst goal we've conceded this season. Playing slowly out of the back with central defenders wide Barry gets his pocket picked from behind by Harry Kane, and with the simplest of passes you have Soldado running with the ball with nothing between him and goalie Howard. He hadn't scored in 9 months, but easily beat keeper Tim.

If we had the players Chelsea have or City maybe this system would work, but Barry, Disten and Jags are too mistake prone. I'm OK with John Stones playing out of the back. He can carry the ball forward and also make nice passes forward (not sideways or backwards!).

Even when slow out of the back works all you're left with is the ball at midfield playing against a settled in defense.

I too question the lineup and formation. In the last game it appeared to me we were playing 4-2-3-1. The wingers were Eto'o and Naismith and they aren't wingers. Both of them don't take up wide positions. I can't remember either receiving the ball out wide. Playing as narrow as Everton did last game makes the defenses job easier.

Martinez will definitely lose my support if he continues to play a system that doesn't match the talents of the players he has. If Eto'o is told to play out on the wing he needs to play out wide.

Having no width should be an easy fix, but stubborn Roberto doesn't seem to see the problem.

My back line is Garbutt, Jags, Stones and Coleman. In midfield I'd play Oveido or Baines in front of Gabutt. I'd play McCarthey (when he's fit) along with Barkley (guess this means Barry plays until McCarthey is fit). On the right midfield I'd have Besic. My instructions to Besic would be don't join the attack if Barkley goes forward. Stay back and provide cover in the center. I actually think this would be a really good role for Besic. With this setup there will be more room in the center of the field for Barkley to roam. The strikers start with a bit of width and there should be room for Barkley to operate instead of the cramped areas he's had to deal with the last few games.

This setup would allow Baines to get forward more often and have less defensive responsibilities. It would allow Barkley to roam forward any time he wants because Besic will cover for him. It allows Everton to play 2 forwards in positions where forwards like and need to play.

And of course the instructions to the goalie is boot the thing long. I'm sick of bad turnovers resulting in easily conceded goals!

He has scored countless goals for every club he's played for and his ability at putting the ball in the net cannot be taught, they are a natural gift.

Roberto has either never seen him play before or is a complete fool to ignore the attributes of one of the greatest African players to have ever played the game.

You decide.

I am looking forward to a successful European campaign and a solid bid for the FA Cup. And remember: we put up with a lot worse for a decade under his predecessor. A lot worse. I am still confident Roberto Martinez will get it right.

I still don’t understand the faith in RM as he has no track record as far as I can see. I also base my judgement on what I’ve seen from him from not just this season but the collapse at the end of the last. A six game run to win an FA Cup against I think only two PL sides will always be on his CV, but in my mind is more than offset by a 38 game season ending in relegation. I don’t trust him at all (and you may have gathered I didn’t want him in the first place! Sin Defendo!)

I was watching the Red shite against Arsenal and although you can see problems in certain areas of their game, in that match you couldn't fault them for their determination in wanting something out of the match, even with 10 men. That's something that as been sadly missing from the blues game.

Could it be as simple as the players don't like the style of football Roberto, is trying to introduce because they don't feel their capable of achieving it? Maybe too much too soon,