No Christmas cheer as Blues are beaten again

Now I donÂ’t rate McGeady, but he should be starting for now to accommodate Barkley in the middle. Preferably at the expense of Barry, who offers fuck all.

Barkley just not shining, Lukaku very average and the team lacking confidence and understanding. No buzz and a manager whistling "Always look on the bright side of life!"

We wonÂ’t get relegated, but we wonÂ’t come close to winning anything either. Now older fans are coming on TW saying theyÂ’ve had enough. Purgatory, as us Catholics would say. Time to light a few candles at Midnight Mass!

As a result of the way we play we are ending up with continuous injuries.

ItÂ’s time to part company with this clown of a manager IÂ’m afraid.

We need some men brought in to this set up and quick. I know theyÂ’re limited, but IÂ’d be doing cartwheels right now if Joey Barton, Tim Cahill and Jon Walters pitched up! Evertonians who wouldnÂ’t be afraid to fight.

Not even a hint of inspiration from anyone.

However, if I thought that our performance was shite (and I REALLY did), then it was beaten flat by the walk home.

On another occasion I may have been tempted to have thought "Poor Buggers, gotta feel sorry for them trying to play decent football in those conditions".

Well today, I didnÂ’t think that. I thought "I canÂ’t wait to get home, write something dismal on ToffeeWeb, pour a big drink, and defrost my real feelings!".

So now IÂ’m off to pour meself that big drink!

Until Martinez realizes that salaries have nothing to do with form we will languish between 11-15 this year. How does he expect to win the Europa league when he has his players lacking confidence

When youÂ’re in a bad run and low on confidence, you need to get back to basics, play a back four and not get stretched around, play as a tight unit for a while before trying to bomb forward leaving the centre-halves exposed. Let the defenders defend first and foremost, then we need to have two proper wide players not strikers or centre midfielders playing out wide and turn opposing defences around giving Lukaku something to run onto with the goal in front of him.

ItÂ’s easier said than done but IÂ’m sick of watching this dirge. Either change this style of play, Martinez, or fuck off cause itÂ’s boring me silly.

Chelsea 28 shots at goal against West Ham. The blues 3, it sort of speaks for itÂ’s self.

I thought Barry, had a decent game but I couldnÂ’t see any other pluses on the pitch.

Lukaku should be dropped and lets see what Kone can do. IÂ’m grasping at straws really but IÂ’m prepared to give him a chance, lets see what he can do.

I donÂ’t think Howard and Jags will be a major loss if out against Newcastle, or should I say their not that hard to replace. Both have had there day.

Chelsea saw Everton coming when we waved 㿈 million under there noses for Lukaku. I am now understanding why Mourinho didnÂ’t want to play him.

I canÂ’t get why we have gone from being a team other donÂ’t wanting to play against, to a team that every team canÂ’t wait to play. Everton put the fear into every team last season... WhatÂ’s gone wrong this season?

Roberto needs to try & find Jesus because by the look of things Everton are going to need a miracle to stay up in the Premier League this season.

LetÂ’s face it, he got Wigan relegated, even though they won the FA Cup. Lightening may well strike twice for Martinez. Everton fans.... Start worrying!!!

Just where oh where do we go from here??

How on earth can what we have seen all season change with this current personnel?

I have totally fallen out of love with this Everton team, letÂ’s be truly honest here, some, in fact not some, MOST of this season it has been as bad as some of the worst years under Moyes and Smith.

The football is absolutely turgid, itÂ’s like watching paint dry, forget how bad that ref Mason is, the fact is we could have played on until midnight against 10 men and still not looked like scoring.

Where is the motivation?
Where is the tempo?
Where are the leaders of men?
We know we have no quick players in the team really so why then do we not attempt to make the ball the fastest thing on the pitch by moving it surround faster and with more purpose?

Instead every game I have seen nearly this season has been played like a pre-season tournament in the hot sun in Thailand.
Slow slow slow, pass pass pass sideways, sideways, back back..

We are depressingly poor to watch, easy to play against, our opponents must be licking their lips at the prospect of facing this meek limp Everton side.

No doubt we will travel to Newcastle on Sunday afternoon and give them the perfect antidote by turning in another load of half interested bollox..

The transfer window opens next week.
IÂ’d suggest we need our best ever January window to date otherwise I really fear where this current group of players are going to take us this season, and I fear Martinez is like a man driving with his eyes completely covered..

Newcastle and Leeds were both relegated with some seasoned experienced players such as Michael Owen, Alan Smith to name but a few..

We have the distinct look of team that looks bad enough to get sucked down there, IÂ’d suggest the sooner the players start forgetting these top 4 pipe dreams the better and start knuckling down and earn the fucking right to win football matches again because at the minute, we have lost it big time.

Well, I think last season, Paul, the defence still had the Moyes mentality drummed in to their brains. And Martinez’s new-style passing was sort of starting from midfield onwards so it had to have a more pacey edge to it. Even he must’ve thought if he changed the whole process so rapidly, he would have been up shit creek, if it fell flat.

But maybe thatÂ’s where he made the mistake; maybe he should have introduced his philosophy in the first season and gave us a total U-turn in what we were about to get. Who knows... maybe then this team would be more settled to his style of play. But we will never know now.

One thing we do know is that he is not a man to change – even under pressure. And he must be feeling real pressure at the moment. I canÂ’t see BK or the board being happy with whatÂ’s happening on the pitch. So, with them and the fans, he is getting it from all sides. IÂ’m all for principles and a person’s beliefs. But there must come a time when all the masses canÂ’t be wrong and he will have to swallow his pride and take notice and listen.

If you think Barton or Walters are going to improve our team then we might as well give up now!

There is no turning this around when the manager is so convinced by his own methods. Thanks for the memories Roberto (last season) but that was a one-off and itÂ’s time for you to go back to the Championship before you take us there with you.

I’ve said it before on TW, not only are we boring and predictable, we now seem to be a beaten team when we go behind, both home any away. I feel sorry for all our fans who packed out Goodison today in the hope of some good cheer, we now need a big shake up, and for the manager to earn his crust and put some results together – stating Sunday.

IÂ’d have him in our team tomorrow.

The conditions were terrible for the kind of football we were trying to play and we have injuries to two major figures in the first half. In those circumstances itÂ’s not a matter of apportioning blame.

We need to give Lukaku better service and we need to play Barkley deeper and more centrally. And yes, BarryÂ’s contribution recently has been negligible.

However, this is not a crisis yet, and anyone who compares this to the Walter Smith era could not have been watching when Walter Smith was managing us. There is no comparison in terms of the style and method, the skill level of the players or the morale of both players and fans.

This is a bad period but we will play through it.

We once scored 37 goals at HOME during Walter SmithÂ’s second full season.

Yes he was ultra defensive but the team of Hutchison, Barmby, Collins, Campbell and Jeffers was far more enthralling to watch than this predictable soulless crap..

Other teams have a style, a gameplan, a way of playing, they are either direct and get loads of quality crosses into the box but make sure they have enough men in the box to actually look like scoring.

Others like Arsenal play fast flowing football because they have the personnel that allows it, pacy, intricate players that can get behind teams..

But Everton?

We are betwixt in between..

We think just passing the ball about slowly amongst the defenders and keeper constitutes this "attack from the back" motto..

It doesnÂ’t..Fact!

It may not yet be a crisis but the next four matches, including that now even more vital West Ham cup game may just make certain that a crisis it is..thereÂ’s no getting away from that some fact

Kone, a good cameo v QPR. Lukaku should be part of the band that was Cameo (word up).

Garbutt brilliant when played. Can cross at speed and takes corners that can be perceived as dangerous. Baines a very good player. Push him forward.

Barry brilliant when breaking up play in front of back four but Besic brilliant at doing the same 20 yards further forward and has more urgency and pace.

Eto'o a legend. Naismith is better at the role due to age.

We donÂ’t have a top keeper at the moment. Come on RM. Best form of attack is not sideways or backwards from advanced positions.

The opposition have only to mark us tight and were beat, they all can see that now, nobody has the ability to get around their marker or find a telling pass if their hassled .

ItÂ’s not fitness, the players donÂ’t look tired, they gave it a good go especially second half, we didnÂ’t get beat for lack of effort. On top of that nothings going for us, Besic sick, bloody injuries again, refs won them the game with the crucial decisions against us, and thatÂ’s on our ground. Add to that 2 very good chances missed, I could have scored the Mirallas miss!

We have no one in midfield that find a telling pass thatÂ’s a glaring problem, McCarthy and Barry are defensive players chiefly and Barkley is not producing much at all.

Talk of sacking Martinez wont make us a winning side, weÂ’ve not won anything for 19 years for gods sake, it shows what any manager of ours is up against. IÂ’m afraid the bitter truth is that the money we can afford to spend on players is not nearly enough to give us a realistic chance of winning a trophy in the League, a cup maybe someday.

Oh to be an Everton supporter; talk about gluttons for punishment.

We canÂ’t surely be going out and relying on what the ref will do or how heÂ’ll perform. ThatÂ’s bollox IÂ’m afraid.

What style of play are you referring to because I donÂ’t remember seeing all season Everton play any style other than the shite we witnessed today.

I do blame him though for spunking 㿈M on a fucking yarddog, and hyping up Barkley as Â’Â’phenomenalÂ’Â’ when heÂ’s actually quite average for me. Both should be benched with EtoÂ’o and Besic starting in their place.

Also Jim, do you remember Duncan Mackenzie (first division) playing against Stoke? I think we won 3. 1. at Goodison. He was fantastic on that day. Over head chips, going around players as if they were invisible, his ball skills were tremendous. On that day he was fantastic. But to me he was the most inconsistent over rated play to were a blue shirt.

You wondering why I am mentioning him? Saw him on a sky programme taking about his playing days to some pundit. The pundit said about his over riding success at Everton and his fabulous skilful displays. I could only recall that one match. How about you Jim?

I use to stand in the Enclosure then with my mates.

Bearing this in mind, why is he being asked to spend 90 minutes with his back to goal?

And if thatÂ’s how Martinez wants his striker to play, then why sign him?

He is getting absolutely no service and is constantly being asked to do things he isnÂ’t great at.

If Moyes was in charged heÂ’d be accused of destroying him.

As for ficking Bingham, If you think Martinez says "phenomenal" too much – every other word Bingham said was "we’re optimistic".

The problem is, Raymond that plenty of shite no-hopers have trophies whilst weÂ’ve gone sideways for fucking years. Ultimately it IS about the money but 24/7/365 would rather take a salary, esp now as the money has been upped. And despite the big money we were still lower bottom half of spending AGAIN.

WhereÂ’s the money, Bill......???

The club is dead at the present moment.

We were a top 5 team last season and while we may have expected a slight slump in our position with playing in the Europa league the only person to blame for a landslide is the manager. He is the one who takes the praise so he has to exept the critisism.

"Its not fitness, the players donÂ’t look tired, they gave it a good go especially second half"

I don’t know how or where you watched today’s game but, believe me, I was about 10 yards from a 21-year-old, red -aced, blowing Ross Barkley – one of our quicker players who was left for dead by a Stoke player and who plainly could not keep up with him today.

Those asking what is different between this year and last need to start first of all with the fitness levels of our team before the move onto anything else because that lack of fitness, close up in the stadium, is absolutely apparent to all including the opposition. We cannot compete past 65-70 mins and that probably goes a long way to explaining quite a lot of our injuries.

Not being fit enough to compete for 90 mins is the easiest thing to fix but in my opinion is a criminally negligent, gross misconduct offence which warrants a sacking in its own right for a PL.

So far as the tactics go, listening to the Arsenal-QPR even the casual watchers, including Graham Taylor, were stating that we had no Plan B. Taylor said something like "when you are found out and you canÂ’t change, you are in trouble". So we donÂ’t even have a Plan A now, and you can bet your last penny that every manager we play now knows how to counter Martinez and, as above, has a fitter team.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I have asked several times on this to those who say persevere with Martinez: On what basis would you give him more time? Where is the evidence he can change this? IÂ’ve seen nothing in his track record or how he has acted in a bad spell to think anything will be different.

For me, decisive action has to be taken before the transfer window because this clown is clueless and a charlatan.

Martinez out!!!

I am worried based on the lack of leadership on the pitch. Play eto up front on his own with the captainÂ’s armband. At present we need a leader with a voice and experience.

Sacking the manager is not the chairmanÂ’s way but he must be a little concerned. Unless the manager can change the mentality or style of play then worrying about other teams results around us will be our concern.

Just when I thought good times where around the corner. I wake up and remember which team I love and bloody hell donÂ’t they test it!

Result? What result? WhoÂ’s interested in the result? IÂ’m just hoping we can not only maintain these stats for the rest of the season but also continue them next season in the Championship.

Not Arsenal, Spurs or Liverpool (our closest rivals)... but STOKE?? It might not be what people want to hear but Moyes with this current squad would have us in the top 3!! No fitness, motivation, idea, aggression... and, more worrying – our manager thinks these performances are okay??

His stubborness to play his way is what took Wigan down!

The first objective is to get results by hook or by crook, then secondly play a nice attractive brand of football. At the minute were getting neither, useless!

When he took the job he said he would play with a blend of Spanish and English styles to get the best out of this team he is getting nothing out of these players they are much better than the manager is allowing them to be.

IÂ’ve had enough of this manager, his so called Â’styleÂ’ of football, his bullshit comments, playing shite, doing nothing to change it then getting beat I wont be going again until there is a vast improvement in the performance and results. ItÂ’s painful to watch!

We just know whatÂ’s going to happen at Newcastle donÂ’t we?
With them being on a bad run, in walks the football doctor dressed in blue to cure your woes..

I donÂ’t rate Howard but the thought of Robles playing 90 minutes in a testing away game brings back memories of the Arsenal Cup capitulation in March.

I donÂ’t think I will even bother watching it on Sunday.

Just a thought but perhaps the Â’Roy Keane, narky arsed way" doesnÂ’t really go down all that weÂ’ll with players these days.

We obviously donÂ’t know what Big Dunc is like in the dressing room but thereÂ’s been very little motivation or passion since he came on board, who is it up to to do the motivating? we must wonder...

We can say what we like about Joe Royle but boy, he knew what motivation meant. Even in his earlier days, Moyes had his major flaws but he could motivate a side.

Do our players get any defensive coaching at all? They seem completely different from the Moyes era.

MartinezÂ’s possession football worked well for Barcelona, for a while, but this is the Premier League, not la Liga, and we donÂ’t have players of Barcelona quality. BarcaÂ’s possession was in the opposition half anyway, not their own.

I just hope Martinez wakes up to the need to be pragmatic before itÂ’s too late.

"We played well enough to achieve a different result."

Obviously not Roberto because we lost – yet again.

I totally agree with Joe Clitheroe: Our fitness levels have gone to the dogs under this fella and I am told he has stopped the practice routines for crosses which Moyes set up because he believes football should be played on the floor.

I have news for you, Roberto: Football is played to win.

As for relegation, thatÂ’s madness; it wonÂ’t happen. Maybe a mid-table finish. We donÂ’t want to become a sacking club. We gave Moyes 11 years: surely we can give Roberto 3 years?

This board has never wanted to invest in the team and their multi millionaires. I feel theyÂ’re just happy with Premier League existence and if we win a cup along the way, well thatÂ’s a plus.

I have a feeling we will beat Man City on the 10th January. Yes, I’m serious. Then a couple more wins and you’re in the mix again. But relegation – that’s ludicrous.

I genuinely believe not turning out a team able to compete in fitness terms is a stackable offence in its own right.

Anyway, I have typed this while he is away from the screen and he will go mad when he sees this but it is getting too much for me already. Before I go, is BarryÂ’s first name actually "Fucking"?

Unlike some, I was hoping Arsenal, Liverpool & Tottenham would lose, as we are 3-4 wins tops (they will lose a few games eventually) and next we know itÂ’s real tight again as we know it.

Seriously though, the team needs real inspiration, instead of the manager avoiding talking about mistakes our players are making and realises a huge part of it is the line-up. The next game which means resting some players and January is coming as sent from heaven.

What a load of predictable shite, weÂ’ve become. Fucking School of Science my fucking arse.

Yeh me too but it's not going to happen folks. We have a board that is shitting themselves and not listening to the vast majority of fans that are clamouring for change. We have a manager that will smile his way to the championship. And we have players that don't give a shit, play badly week in week out.
We are being taken for fools but real Everton supporters know their football. And this current tripe being dished up ain't for us.

Martinez can fuck off out of our club. I just can't watch the shite football or listen to his stupid lame excuses anymore. Just fuck off .

1. - Like him or hate him Moyes did know how to coach a defence, much of his work (and coaching staff) was still in the players minds last year but this has faded over time.

2. - Barry had plenty to prove last year and was playing for a contract. Since he received his contract with us he has looked half the player he was.

3. - Distin is a year older and loosing some of his pace.

4. - Baines and Coleman have suffered from the way the manager is setting up the team but they also must accept their perfomance levels have dropped considerably. Baines never looks the same without Pieenar and he cannot stay injury free.

5. Lukaku has never and will never hold the ball up well but will score goals if he gets the right service. He is playing with his back to goal most of the time and the manager is unable to set his team up to get the most from him.

6. THE most important thing of all in any sport is confidence. We were full of it last year and we now look scared. A couple of wins would bring this back and sometimes the kindest thing to do to a player is to drop them
Sadly Roberto seems to play the same players and system week in week out.

What I saw today was a side lacking confidence. Roberto spoke of wanting a side full of players with confidence, exuberance and arrogance. There's none of that at the moment.

We've had rotten luck with injuries, especially to key players. Roberto has had to swap and change, and it's done no favours to the rhythm or balance to the side.

Roberto layed trust in older and experienced players, who for me time has caught up with them, and quite frankly have played one season too many. He wasn't to know this. No one was expecting the calamitous form of Howard, Jagielka and Distin this season. Roberto had little choice but to stick with this quartet with injuries to the likes of Stones and Alcaraz.

Players have lost form. Only Mirallas and Naismith have found any sort of consistency this season.

The formation that worked so well last season has failed us this season. A potential reason could be that teams have worked us out. It needs freshening up.

What I think might work; a 3-5-2 formation. I would like to see Garbutt giving a run of games in a left-wing back position, and see Baines brought into central midfield. Besic or Barry could easily play in a back three alongside two of Stones, Jagielka or Distin. I would like to see Barkley play central midfield alongside McCarthy. And then Mirallas and Lukaku up top.

Europa League aside, it's been a pretty dismal season so far. Luckily we have a transfer window fast approaching, and I'd like to see the board back our manager. I could certainly name 5-6 players who I'd like to see leave.

A pacy winger is a must. Also a player in the mould of Pienaar. I thought that Bojan was terrific for Stoke today, someone like him please.

But it's all fantasy football stuff.. what do I know.

A difficult game on Sunday. With the injuries, and lack of confidence, it's going to be hard, but 3 points are there for the taking.

A pivotal moment in our season.

We need to man up quickly because we are fast becoming the softest touch in the premiership....and that's from just about every individual to the management too.

I see nothing at all in your post which is actually not the managerÂ’s fault. Specifically because they are all predictable risks which he is paid a fortune to mitigate ; time catching up with older players, whoÂ’d have thought that could happen eh?

Coupled with the plainly obvious fact that the team are not fit enough to compete for 90 mins and I am not for giving him any more chances. Nor would I give him a penny for transfers given how he has spent so far. No doubt he will be given the next window but I fear for where we will be end of January if he is still around. I, personally, have seen enough of him already

With the injuries:-
Robles
Baines
Coleman
Alcaraz
Stones

Garbutt
McCarthy
Barkley
Mirallas

Kone
Eto'o

Lukaku from the bench.

For example, I think most would agree Besic was miles better than Barry the last 4-5 games and should have started again. Last year, there was no alternative to Barry and he played quite well, so there was no reason to doubt his inclusion in the team. Now we have a younger, in form option in Besic, and Barry is out of form at the moment. I thought this was the reason we bought the kid. To up the competition and rotate like the 'big clubs' do right?

Tim Howard is busy kissing babies, doing color commentary on NBC, and signing autographed copies of his memoirs midseason while we languish in 12th. With such a busy schedule for him, I'm not surprised he's 2nd to last in the league in save percentage. Last season, Howard legitimately viewed Robles as real competition for his job when the kid was given a 5 year deal. It propelled him to probably his best season in goal. Now he doesn't view Robles as a threat. And so, he does whatever he wants because he knows he'll never be dropped. But watch. If Robles plays well in his absence, all of a sudden he'll start playing his ass off again when he gets back in the team. That's what real competition does and that's on Bobby.

Also, Martinez really has to stop putting our attacking players in places they don't belong (for the umpteenth time). Barkley is a central midfielder. Period. Yet again he's out wide and we don't score. I know. Total shocker right? More and more people jump on Lukaku, but in reality, his success is directly linked to Barkley's position on the field. Put them together, we score over two goals a game and usually win. When we don't, well, you've been watching the games. Quite a few ToffeeWebbers see this but our manager is still admiring his face on the side of Goodison Park and has yet to notice. Barkley, Naismith, Eto'o (not a creative mid either), and Osman aren't wide players. But most games, two, sometimes THREE of that group find their way into the lineup. What happens? They all drift inside from wide because that's their nature. Space gets clogged. Then we do our whole slow passing routine that dies a slow death near a corner flag, as if the goal is actually located there. McGeady isn't exactly the most popular figure on our squad, which is fine. However, him, Mirallas, and Atsu are the only real wingers that provide width, pace, and trickery. Two of those three have to play in order the open up the middle. One is injured. Should be an easy decision.

Until the manager demands accountability from his players, ups the tempo of our play, and the team width changes for the better, I can't see any reason why Everton won't go on giving us more lifeless performances. We are unbelievably shit right now and it's 100% Roberto's fault. I like the guy. I don't want him out because I think he really can help us realize our dreams. But to say his decision making at present is horrific is the understatement of the year.

Your last comment is the key one and is the reason that people are getting so p---ssed off about and that is that Martinez either will not or as it seems to become obvious can not change the system that other teams now how to stop us.

We are supposed to have one of our strongest squad for years so there is no need to play players out of position to replace injured players; this is supposed to be why you have a squad. If you do not have players in the squad to replace injured players then what is the use of having a squad. Last week proved the manager has no confidence in the players on the bench and that they are only there if someone gets injured.

I watch a lot of premier games on tv and notice how many players use their subs to change a game around or if a player is injured he is usually replaced by a player of roughly the same position. Mr Martinez's use of subtitutes to say the least is questionable.

The majority of Everton's supporters have most probably been watching Everton for a lot of years and allthough not proffessional coaches have a good knowledge of the game recognize a good system played and are aware of someone that appears out of his depth. Mr Martinez may have the makings of a top coach but one of the things he has to learn is the fundamental part of a successful coach or manager isyou have to recognize the problems and change them.

Mr Martinez is either to stubborn to admit his style of play is not working withh this group of players to change and the people who are suffering are the Everton supporters

The key difference for me though was Moyes knew when it wasn’t good enough. If we had all our players fit more often than not we’d win especially at home. Back then squad depth was key, an injury to Cahill or Arteta could make or break Moyes’ season. You got the sense that Moyes knew how to get us put the rough patch. People got fed up with him when he gave up, stopped admitting it wasnt good enough, blamed the players, and wouldn’t change a losing formula.

What is worrying is that Martinez is already doing these things. He doesn’t even think we’re playing badly. Yes I will give him time but if there’s no improvement this season and next season goes the same way then i’d get rid, 3 seasons is long enough. Mourinho or Ferguson would have this squad in the top three. That for me is what has turned fans against Martinez so much. You can stomach near misses when its McFadden and Beattie upfront but when you’ve spent 30 million and got Batkley Mirallas Lukaku and Etoo you really have to deliver more.

Rather than getting frustrated and angry, I pretty much from the off looked at the body language of the players, the movement, and how vocal the players were. There is nothing there, nothing at all.

Players on that pitch were lazy and some look as though they don’t want to be there strolling around. They are an embarrassment to Everton Football Club. Each and every one of those players didn’t give a shit today. I want to see players at this club that want to play for EFC – not prance around like fannies.

I made a 400-mile round-trip in treacherous snowing conditions, putting my own life on the line to watch those gang of massive cunts put in a performance like that?? Whilst they won’t feel guilty putting in that sort of performance, cruising back home in there 4x4s and souped up motors.

Fuck off, Everton. Those players are an absolute disgrace and an embarrassment to the club.

Uhh, yeah, good luck with that.

Plus you could see the improvements in the team year on year and even the Moyes wobbles happened when we were effectively safe in the league. We are being dismantled by this fella

There was a bit of a reaction. The tempo was up from the start and you could see they were hurt by recent weeks. So that's something.

Unfortunately the problems persist. The full backs have nothing ahead of them due to shoehorning central players into the team. The defensive midfielders still offer little in terms of quality possession (plenty of quantity). The passing from the back is too slow. And we have no ideas up front.

On par with our performance was the referee. Got the big calls wrong and spent most of the game in the way... As Nais pointed out to him when he got him booked. I fact I don't think I've ever seen such an unfit ref. He'll get demoed on that performance for sure.

Fucking up referees careers seems to be the only impact we make nowadays.

Been saying it for a few weeks but Baines to midfield makes so much sense right now. He's the only one who seems interested in moving the ball and moving without it. He's so undeserving of recent criticism on here. Under appreciated.

After each more depressing performance than the last, I try to rationalise it with some kind of hope. Like: "This will give the younger lads a chance to prove their worth" or "Now is the time for Kone to shine" or "Surely it can't get any worse than this" or "Well at least we've hit rock bottom" etc etc. But its just not happening. It may seem preposterous to consider relegation, but at this rate we are certainly more likely to be getting dragged into a fight at the lower end of the table, because the top half (forget about top 4) are disappearing over the horizon.

Theres no imagination, its pedestrian, Lukaku is getting no service, Barkley is playing poorly due to being messed about (imo), & the full backs are being nullified.

So how can we get our big talents into the games more to affect the play and also get Lukaku some help?

I think its time to go three center halves.

We can play with the two holders, get the wing backs going, play two strikers so Lukaku gets help & someone to play off, and also get Barkley playing in an advanced central position.

The problem postion could be left sided center back . Its either Distin or Barry.

Now what we do about the lack of spirit, charachter and the absolute fact the team has an inherently soft center im unsure. But I think it could be the best way to get some results as otherwise its clear we are sinking and have problems

The divvy with the laser has brought shame on our great Club. I fervently hope that heÂ’s found, prosecuted and then banned from EFC for life. We donÂ’t need his type. Prat of a lad.

Stick Barry in the back 4 for Jags and give Kone a run alongside Lukaku. But do something. Definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

The key difference for me though was Moyes knew when it wasn’t good enough. If we had all our players fit more often than not we’d win especially at home. Back then squad depth was key, an injury to Cahill or Arteta could make or break Moyes’ season. You got the sense that Moyes knew how to get us put the rough patch. People got fed up with him when he gave up, stopped admitting it wasnt good enough, blamed the players, and wouldn’t change a losing formula.

What is worrying is that Martinez is already doing these things. He doesn’t even think we’re playing badly. Yes I will give him time but if there’s no improvement this season and next season goes the same way then i’d get rid, 3 seasons is long enough. Mourinho or Ferguson would have this squad in the top three. That for me is what has turned fans against Martinez so much. You can stomach near misses when its McFadden and Beattie upfront but when you’ve spent 30 million and got Batkley Mirallas Lukaku and Etoo you really have to deliver more.

Anyother team would say that's relegation form. There's something wrong with Everton at the moment, I don't know what it is, but whatever it is it needs sorting out quickly.

The first half today I thought we played the 12 men well, but after half time we never looked like scoring.
It seems that as soon as we go behind it's game over. I don't think we've won a game having gone behind this season. I am not looking forwards to Newcastle and Hull, both very losable games.

That's up to The Board, Billy & in some part, pressure from the fan base. Myself, I would give him as long as we can without inflicting too much self harm on the club. At the moment we're in pain but it can be easily remedied with a couple of good performances & wins.

If it gets to the point that we need two wins to stay up or drop, that's too much pain for me & I want to see another Dr.

Its easy to blame certain people but those certain players have not played in our last couple of games.

Today we put out possibly our strongest starting eleven and looked like rabbits in hedlights and its easy to see we have been found out and have no plan b.

Martinez needs to act quick and try a different system, not many teams are blessed with two attacking full backs like Baines and Coleman, so its time to cut out the triangle passing and hit teams quick and hard.

That is the best Everton team we have had for a long time, we need to play to the teams strength and cut out this boring short butch Wilkins like passing and go for plan b before our season goes up shit creek.

On another note, the next time I hear the old "Baines isn't the same without Pienaar" bollocks, I'm going to snap. If he was only good with Pienaar playing alongside him, then he isn't as good as anyone says, and he shouldn't be one of our highest earning players.

Bring in Oviedo. If he can play a full game in reserves then he needs to be rushed back into the first team.

Against Newcastle I would change it up and play this team:

Robles; Coleman, Baines, Stones, Besic; McCarthy; Mirallas, Barkley, Oviedo;
Lukaku, Eto'o.

Experimental, but fuck it. Can't get any worse, can it?

I would love to see us play with two up top but I know that will never happen under the current gaffer.

I heard that one of Martinez'comments was that the injuries to Jags and Howard disrupted our rythm (sounds like he is talking about come dancing.)

We can complain on these exellent sites until the frusration exhausts us but I doubt if any one will take any notice. Often on these comments there are some good team selections but the problem is the man who counts are allways differant.

I was criticized for mentioning the way Totenham was run and no I do not want Everton to be run like Totenham but my comment was I wished we had a chairman with some balls and a backbone like they have who in the least at this time have explained to Martinez that the club was not very happy and he only had a couple more games to turn it around.

The comments of we only need a couple of wins to turn it around we will be ok is a kick in the face for the season ticket holders as they pay off a lot of the bills with their early purchases and don't expect a half season of football.

Time for Martinez to show that all the praise he has been given is warrented before it is to late.. Iam 74 now and cant take mutch more of this crap that his teams play and his comments after a game.

I am seriously losing the faith. Good players are not making chances - that is a total lack of tactical acumen. What has happened to Seamus Coleman?

That really helps move the debate along.

I'm trying to think of the last time we were this bad? Which starts to take some of the gloss off last season's efforts.

The season we started with the one nil loss at Blackburn springs to mind... We were hopeless until December that year. OFM turned it around after Christmas. RM needs to get this right very, very quickly.

It actually feels like we need loans or signings to put some fresh life into us because the team looks like it's rotten right now.

1) use players in their right position and get proper balance in the team - our wingers might be setting the world on fire, but I would choose Miralles, McGeady and Pienaar in that position than Osman, Barkley, Naismith or Eto'o all day long. Also, because we have four CAMs who RM loves doesnt mean we can play them all in the same line-up

2) Play Barkley as CAM behind the striker. It is the position where he genuinely looks the part... otherwise drop him.

3) Dont give up on the passing game, but move the ball quicker back to front so defences arent always set before we reach the penalty area. Then vary the play and get some early balls/crosses into the box.

4) If you are going to play a system where centre halves play the ball out of defence, then Stones and Alcaraz will be first pick for the rest of the season if they are fit.

5) As a fan lf his, drop Romelu before his confidence is completely shot. I should get pelters for this as I've slagged him off relentlessly, but replace him with Kone. At least he's hungry and fit!

6) Get legs in the team as we look slow, pedestrian and teams are outworking us - that means Besic before Barry to partner McCarthy.

My team for Newcastle - Robles - Coleman - Stones - Alcaraz - Garbutt - McCarthy - Besic - Miralles - Barkley - Kone - Oviedo.

COYB!

His summer was pathetic, partly his fault, but if I was BK I think I'd be a bit more hands on than that. Fat, sluggish players picking up annual salaries in a week, but being fat disgraces with no personality or fight would have to trigger a considered reaction.

We're becoming a joke, an embarrassment, and an outside bet for a relegation dog fight. If that happens these players will hide and fail. Surely, surely not.

He fairly recently won an FA cup with them - everybody still hates playing against them - especially us.

He pulled a struggling team out of the mire last season against all odds.

Strange as it may seem he is out of work at the moment but won't be for long because "some club" is going to sack their manager shortly and bring him in to see If he can help them avoid relegation this season - which in all probability he will.

The flip side to this is that "another" club is going to regret not having called him in. I hope it isn't us because we are in serious trouble at the moment.

We need someone to take the current situation by the scruff of the neck.

Presumably Jagielka will not be playing against Newcastle. I will wait to see who gets the armband for the Newcastle game before I go public - but I think the cat is out of the bag.

The fundamental's of a top team are hard work, fitness and organisation we lack all of the above we are fast becoming a joke. Baines and Coleman have become isolated and are playing within themselves.

Ross Barkley looked like he'd been on the ale all christmas!

As for your "cat out of the bag" stuff. I'm still in the dark on that one.

Could it not just be possible that neither, especially Seamus, are playing at all well this season?

There was a incident in the second half when Coleman under no pressure passed the ball straight to a Stoke player, but he was gifted it back immediately, only for the ball to then bounce off his shins again in a moment of woeful control..

Moments like this is not down to formation but a blatant lack of form.

I said straight after the Spurs defeat that Martinez was wrong to drop both fullbacks, Garbutt and Hibbert, following the great win (and clean sheet) in Wolfsburg.
He completely sent out the wrong message to two men who had performed admirably, and who would have relished the chance to face Spurs.

Too many mistakes not just from the players but from the management team (not just Martinez) this season, has resulted in the pit we currently find ourselves in now.

I totally agree with everything you say, I said some weeks back that he was a charlatan, and one or two took exception to this reminding me of last seasons points tally. Well I think a lot of what happened last season was he was left with a good group of talented players who all worked for each other. This season its all down to RM, he told us only a few days ago that he wont change his philosophy which obviously served him well at Wigan, and its obviously beginning to work just as successfully here.

Thankfully if things get really bad and we get sucked into a relegation battle, at least we have Joe Royle at the club and he saved us once before from relegation. I see we have conceded more goals at home than anyone in the division despite setting up with 2 defensive midfield players. Lets just hope that we can get to the end of the season still in the Premiership but that will be inspite of RM and not because of him.

Incidentally, I'd play Baines AND Garbutt, with Bianes further forward giving us width. He was cery exposed yesterday, but that's Martinez's team for you.

Unfortunately,i don’t see any Cahills,Carsleys amongst this lot so I trust it wont happen. The 1st team have become a bunch of robotic players who play "safe" so they keep in favour with the managers ideas and don’t dare rock the cosy "love boat" ethos this manager has generated for fear of reprisals. Besic and Oviedo have been treated dreadfully by Martinez and I think its because they have a desire to win and can rub players up the wrong way ,dead against this blokes ethos. These 2 would start EVERY GAME for me as when the shit hits the fan these are the types you turn to.
They also happen to be fucking good footballers! At the minute our "captain" behaves more like a childish panto dame than your figure head on the field. Too comfy you see,like many others and doomed to failure.
Martinez doesn’t want his team to have a nasty streak as that’s not part of the latest coaching manual,and wont look great on his CV,when Barcelona come knocking(best joke ive heard for ages that was). Out of his depth,sinking fast,taking some decent players with him too. Please step aside,bring a fella in with a pair,who tells players what he thinks and perhaps you may see a change in attitude on the pitch.
Fuck it,im taking the kids out for a blast round our local castle and a fucking big bowl of soup! Hope it helps to get this shit out my head!

As far as the "cat out of the bag" it already is. Colin and Andrew have already sussed me out.

Andrew - I stand corrected.

Colin - is everything going to be alright then? Personally I am seriously concerned and I'll tell you why.

When the whistle goes at the end of the Newcastle game we will have played half a season. We will be on 21, 22 or maybe even 24 points. If 40 points represents "safety" we will have to find at best another 16 points to stay in the premier league - at worst 19. The question is are our performances improving or getting worse.

We were a bit better against Stoke than we were against Southampton but that wouldn't have been hard to achieve.
But still 0 points out of a possible 6.

I want what Harold said he wants - have another read of his post at #109.

Of course as manager he is ultimately responsible for the poor showings and results but I think a lot of our players are escaping overdue criticism.

In the second half yesterday it seemed to me only the 2 centre halves, Barry and surprisingly Lukaku wanted it and too many players were not only poor but much worse than that they were hiding.

I must single out Barkley as he seems to escape most as Roberto has played him out wide and in the hole which are not his best positions but even when in the centre yesterday he was awful again. He doesn't feel that he has to do defensive duties and drifts in games. Except for QPR and Villa he has been shocking for a player with his talent.

I did see shoots of recovery yesterday as Stones and Alcaraz made a big difference to our play both defensively and on the ball, but also we looked dangerous from corners for the first time in ages thanks to the Birdman's presence.

I also thought in the first half we were more like the team from last season in terms of pace, hunger and movement and we had 3 great opportunities which we should have buried and that hasn't happened for a while.

I hope the board back Roberto in January as we need so much a top winger as Dellboy would totally transform this team and give us the balance we are crying out for. Other areas need strengthening but can wait however we need a top wide man now as Roberto's teams have always been heavily dependent on the quality of his wingers for creativity.

Finally I think its too easy to take a swipe at Roberto for his Wigan record and making him out to be a failure. He done an amazing job there as kept them up on numerous occasions despite consistently having the worst budget in the league and paying easily the worst wages.. He won the cup also which is an incredible feat and do people think Sean Dyche is doing a terrible job also because I think he is doing a fantastic job with his resources. Look at the struggles they have had since he left.

Keep the faith

We struggle to penetrate them as a result, and spend half the time playing the ball to no effect.

So, what I've written there, you all know already. I know it, you know it, the media are writing about it, and as a result our players also appear to know it as well - it's showing up in the lack of confidence shown. OK, so what next?

Well someone needs to sit Martinez down and tell him - Roberto, it doesn't work all the time against every team. Sometimes yes, other times no. What's Plan B? There is no Plan B. Martinez' problem isn't his philosophy, it's is stubbornness and inability to change to another way of playing. We can all see that, and so can our opposition.

Yesterday was a prime example against a Stoke side setup to soak it up, play hard and nick it. And what happened? Exactly that. We all saw it coming, but the manager didn't?

Some of our players are being made to look second-rate as a result - Barkley for example, collecting the ball, rolling it under his foot, then either passing sideways to no affect, or running into 3 or 4 players at once, losing the ball and looking like an idiot.

Lukaku - stuck up top, constantly surrounded by massed defenders, unable to have any effect on the game with his back to goal all the time. Pointlessly being made to do donkey-work with no end product. Again, not his fault as such but fans get on his back as much as centre halves (you see what I did there?).

The best teams out there, that play the system he sticks with, are also the hardest working teams out there when they lose the ball. We don't win it back as much as we should in any area. Why? Tactics is why - Martinez philosophy of ball-playing is all well & good, but you have to do the other half which is to win it back like men possessed. We don't do that. Ever. As a result we're wide open at the back when we lose the ball, with our fullbacks miles up the pitch, and everyone chasing back - this happens constantly, and eventually it tells as our defenders come under more & more pressure from both opposition and their own supporters who see this as them being rubbish/lazy/not bothered, when in fact they're probably fucking knackered all the time from all the chasing back and last-ditch tackles.

I actually feel a little sorry for the players at the moment, because it's them in the firing line with a manager that just waxes-lyrical constantly, without ever taking any responsibility due to his blind faith in his system. It's not rocket science to sit back and watch us play the ball around without getting anywhere.

Mid table obscurity is this seasons new aim as far as I'm concerned.

Yes our league form is alarming, Moyes had second season syndrome and while I don't want to be a Martinez apologist (although I feel like I am as a write this) I think he sound be given until the end of the season because I reiterate..I don't think we will go down! I'm prepared to write this season off league-wise (a top 6 finish) for the chance of some silver wear.

That being said, I'm getting seriously alarmed by some of the BS we are being fed by Martinez. Following the same script that we won't change our passing game, come what may! Our set pieces and corners are atrocious and need to be worked on. It is this inflexibility from Martinez that comes across a little like delusion that is beginning to worry me.

I think if he was sacked tomorrow it might ruin our progression in the Europa. Also, if he brings in some quality additions in January. I'm thinking Delboy, Marshall/Ruddy and someone like the soon to be out of contract Ron Vlar to replace the hopeless Distin. It will give us the best possible chance of winning a cup.

Of course, it's unlikely he'll get any money and if that is the case he really needs to stop being Mr Nice Guy and give Howard, Distin, Barry and even Baines some time out to reflect on how shit they've been all season.

What would a new manager do? Wave a magic wand and have the players do something completely different to fix it?

I fail to see how that would help anyone.

This is the best squad we've had since the mid-eighties and it's a group of players which should be challenging in the top 6. I'm not sure (unlike you) that I have a lot of confidence in Martinez but I think he should be given until the end of next season to turn things around... that is unless we're flirting with relegation and the situation becomes too desperate that the board has to intervene.

What exactly is it that gives anyone reason to think he will suddenly do what he has never previously done at EPL level?

James, apart from the wand, I think that would be the point of a new manager (not that I think one is coming soon).

Wigan had the lowest budget in the PL and it is unfair to use that against him. The season Wigan got relegated they had their best 2 central defenders injured for most of the season, that is a big reason they shipped all the goals.

It's always more accurate to analyse what Martinez has done at Everton - a club with a much bigger budget. Last season we finished 5th with a record points total... surely that's more relevant than what happened at wigan, no?

This season has gone drasticly downhill, but no club will ever get any stability if it sacks it's manager without giving him time to turn things around. In a more modern era of football, Alex Ferguson and Howard Kendall would probably have been sacked before having a chance to guide their clubs to glory because things got desperate for both of them in the early days.

Stubbs seems to be doing a pretty job of things at hibs just now. 4-0 at the moment. As Patrick says about relieving Martinez of his duties, could we do any worse than Stubbs with big dunc as number 2?

It's pure bollocks to say we finished with a record points total because Moyes left his legacy. How come Moyes never acheived 72 points in his whole time here? It's clear you have always pined for Moyes and you have only ever come on these boards to stick the boot into Martinez. Never once have you said anything complementary about him, even when we were doing well last season.

You are entitled to your opinion - but don't fabricate nonsense to suit your agenda.

In other words, the other teams were simply fodder for the top 7 as they were so poor that season. 34 points would have kept you up, WBA stayed up with only 7 wins all season, West Ham finished 13th with only 40 points, the usual relegation benchmark. A real one-off season and it certainly should not be used to reach conclusions about the ability of our manager.

But if a team does manage to establish themselves in the top league for a number of years they have been through the pain and actually staying there is an easier task than that facing a newly promoted team. This is not a radical point surely?

Watching Hibs smash Rangers, it was just like us last season: great possession, totally dominant all over the pitch, quick sharp passing, always looking for the forward pass. Stubbs had a balanced team and I think being an ex-defender it was a case of giving nothing away at the back then breaking forward.

Fuck knows what's happened to Martinez but, if he asks Stubbs for the video and sits down with the players and watches it, hopefully they ALL might learn/remember something. I hope Stubbs does well and continues his learning process...

It's a cliche but every good team is built on a solid defence.

I post my opinions here, this is what this great site helps us all do. You don't agree with them, that's fair enough, but I always try and form my opinions based on a personal interpretation of actual relevant events, actions and the evidence I see with my own eyes. I try hard not to be prejudiced by irrelevances, like hair colour and accents – not saying you do by the way.

Trying to take an objective view of what Martinez is doing, I genuinely cannot see any reason to stick with him, but then again I never thought he should have been appointed in the first place as I didn't rate him at Wigan. I have seen nothing at all, or heard any argument or points that make a reasoned argument in my opinion for Martinez to stay, other than he won the FA Cup and had a record points total, or "Who would take over mid season so let's just keep him" – all of which hold no water for me.

Makes me fear we are in for lots more of the same.

Robles, Distin, Alcaraz, Eto'o and McGeady coming in?

I guess we can't be any worse than recent games!

Martinez, a talented but inexperienced manager has got it wrong from the start this season, and has put that much emphasis on Europe that it's like the Premier League has been no more than an afterthought.

"Fail To Prepare, then Prepare To Fail", was a comment attributed to Roy Keane, but he could easily have been saying it about Martinez, and our preparations in the Premier League this season.

I saw Robert Elstone, the other day in town and when I asked him what's going wrong? He just kept repeating what a great manager Roberto was. He might be one day, who knows, but the best in any sport learn from there mistakes quickly – even if I'm prepared to give him a bit more time just yet.

Maybe we are missing Stubbs, John, because the last time he left us, the team that had previously came 4th, struggled like mad until he came back in the January. I think our defenders are missing him anyway but I'm not sure what input he had with the players last season.

The emphasis for Europe keeps making us stop playing when we have a good lead, and this resulted in the boos against QPR, which in turn has now really affected our confidence. When confidence goes, anything is possible, which is why it's imperative we get something out of our next two games, and stop the rot becoming a crisis.

If Robles can't take his chance now to push Howard out, then it's obvious we need a new keeper in January.

Who does that leave on the bench?

Stanek, Hibbert, Oviedo, Kone, Besic, Browning, Garbutt?

The jury is out on Martinez, and I have lost a lot of confidence in his ability to turn things around, because our performances have been dire most of the season - but I think he deserves the chance to turn things around as long as we are'nt involved in a relegation dogfight.

For what it's worth, I never wanted Martinez here in the first place; I wanted Bielsa - a manager which does well with limited funds, his teams are super fit and justt look at his mighty Marseille side topping the French League ahead of moneybags PSG and Monaco. Martinez is here now though; he did well in his first season and IMO, should be given time to prove you and the rest of his doubters wrong.

Spark, I think is what it takes, a little one, hopefully shown when some that have been letdown by themselves are dropped to the bench and others step up they show it.

Surely the staff are able to look back and put this bad spell behind. And they need inspiration from us fans as much as we need inspiration from them to cheer them on.

The bookies had us finish 7th before the season started, that's how phenomenal they thought we are.

Howard – never know which one will turn up.
Coleman – defensively frail.
Baines – ditto and neither breaking any pots going forward
Jagielka – fast over the ground, frail in the air
Distin – ditto
Barry – okay defensively, not much use going forward
McCarthy – ditto again
Stones – still learning but great potential
Barkley – ditto not producing much this season
Mirallas – good but inconsistent
Besic – could be an asset to us if he gets a run
Eto'o – class player but past his very best
Lukaku – playing like a 㿈 thousand player never mind a 㿈 million.
The rest – average Premier League players at best.

Certainly this month has been one of the worst for a long time but it's just that we need a sense of perspective. Last season was the best I have witnessed as an Everton fan both in performances and results (I was only 7 in 1985). Some of the rubbish Andy has come out with about last season's success beggars belief and as you suggest is clearly agenda-orientated.

We have had this guy for a year and a half and the first year was exceptional. We have put a lot into the Europa League also and statistically teams struggle in the Premier League with that extra workload, travel and injury pressure.

I disagree that we have a top six squad as players like Distin, Howard, Atsu, Pienaar, and Hibbert would not make Arsenal, Spurs or the RS squad. Yes, we have some quality players in our ranks but it's largely imbalanced, eg, four No 10s but only one decent winger.

We are at a very low ebb no doubt but there is still a lot to be played for this season and, while many question Roberto tactically on here, I have been looking to the bench for inspiration and don't see the quality like last year with Dellboy and Naismith to change it.

I also like Roberto's approach to how we can compete by purchasing Lukaku 21, McCarthy 23, Besic 22 and bringing through talent like Barkley and Stones and getting them tied to long-term deals. Of course results are the most important thing but how the whole club is developing under this manager is also why I keep the faith.

However, who's available to take over? Pulis would be a disastrous choice. Nobody would be interested in coming to our club, as either a player or potential investor. Martinez is more marketable, although that counts for nothing if he gets us relegated.

Head says, get rid of the useless twat. Heart says, maybe he should have more time as I'd love to see him turn it around.

Who's a realistic alternative?

My simple opinion is Martinez is not the manager for us. Where's the agenda in that please?

Yes, we are having a bad time at the moment, but for fucks sake get behind the boys!!! DonÂ’t you think they need it more now than for a while? We are EVERTON, not the Redshite, donÂ’t be so shallow!!!

Back to watching more Homeland chaps.

I'd like us to get the manager we had last season. The one who played a balanced team, had them defending and passing well, all knew their jobs, scored lots of goals.

Not sure where he's gone, but I think he'd be spot on. Judging by some the measured, even-handed comments on here, he was really lucky as well!

However, if it becomes clear that the manager has lost the players, then there's no way back after that and he should then go. That time may not be far off, till then let's see what the next couple of games bring.

One of the symptoms of Martinez's style of play has been to dampen the Goodison fans. For decades our game has been based on passion, intensity and speed. It all served to get the fans up and give us that bit extra which I think is the main reason we have, in the past, always had such a strong home record.

Martinez has now mostly stripped the team of these attributes and we are left mainly with ponderous, boring, predictable passages of build-up play. I sit there frustrated and bored by much of the play, it's like watching Italian mid-table dross.

The constant playing players out of position has been put to the test, and Martinez will seek for other options.

Remember OFM playing Bilyaletdinov, Naismith and Osman out of position? Seems like Ossie and Naismith are still willing to play out wide just to have a chance to play.

Happy days.

When fans speak of not liking the atmosphere at Goodison, of tactics, of poor results, I can respect their opinion and they can justify their argument. But anybody who doesn't respect the excellent finish last year or great achievement of finishing top of a very tough Europa League isn't being fair on the manager, I feel.

Last season I thought those days had gone. They've returned with a vengeance.

Nothing wrong with the 'tactics' and 'system' last season. Manager and players have seriously underperformed since the summer. No team has ever made progress when the manager and players have been as clearly out of sorts with each other as we are right now.

At the moment we're relying on Martinez to find something within himself, the players to either up their game, even if it's for the sake of their own careers, or go to the management and sort it out. Remember, Bill isn't a sacking manager, especially when he put Martinez on a five-year contract, no doubt in response to the shit he was in when the last guy left without compensation.

Time for serious questions, also for serious suggestions about our next steps.....

The Moyes legacy was much stronger last season than this. Time (in terms of more of it for Martinez's ideas to take effect) and the subsequent departure of backroom staff are in my opinion the reason we are much worse this season than last and this is why I won't heap false praise on Martinez for last season.

It's easy to take over a previously successful big business and run it for a year. It usually takes about a year before poor, albeit savvy, managers (in any walk of life) start to get found out if they aren't really up to the job and the business then starts to suffer. The good existing staff and practices will keep a business on a steady path for some time. Inevitably though when the new management fail to demonstrate they can make the right decisions at the right time, the smoke and mirrors they've been hiding behind start to fail them. In Martinez's case, his PR machine is starting to fall apart and we are now beginning to see his true ability.

We have looked shit all year but despite that, we have got to the elimation stage of the Europa League with a favorable draw ahead of us.

I don't think he's anywhere as good a manager as people -especially pundits like dickhead Savage - say he is, true he won the FA cup but the draw was very easy with us being the only decent team they beat on the way to the final.

As much as as I am disappointed with us this year, I don't see any point in getting rid of him mid season - any subsequent appointment would be knee jerk.
On the plus side, we have a good squad on paper which you would think
should be top 6 challengers - though ultimately I doubt we'll make top 6.

We're just going to have to tough it out this season and see where the dominoes fall in April

I think my post from nearly 18 months ago sums how I still feel:

Andy Walker
536 Posted 31/08/2013 at 22:38:53

Amit I agree that I don't think Man Utd should have appointed Moyes, big risk. I cant see any other way of deciding whether you think a manager is good enough to manage your team than by looking at their past performance. Not always a guarantee but better than tea leaves, dowsers , tossing a coin, etc.

Any average football fan knows what you get with RM, the way he likes playing, (pass pass pass) sets his team up (one up front), his type of players (technically good with the ball). That's what he's done his whole career and its no surprise he continued to do it at our club. Don't get me wrong, he could be great with a load of money where he can buy the best players who can deliver his ideas on the pitch. I actually think he would have done better at Man Utd than Moyes. It's about matching your manager to your club and RM just isn't a good fit for us in my opinion.

Oh and it is Duncan's 43rd birthday today, happy birthday big man.

4-2-3-1 is killing us (well the tactical suicide we employ to it). We could even do 3-5-2 with Barklay in a free role in midfield?

Before that get them into a proper fitness regime and get them physically fit, powerful and strong again. Joe Royle done that in his first 2 weeks back in November 1994, the lack of fitness issue I blame solely on Roberto and his management team, it can be done in mid season if you know how to approach it in the right manner.

If we need to go back to Dogs of War, being competitive, tight, fit, powerful, physical, hard to beat, good at setpieces (attacking and defending) with a manager who has the know how to get goals from his team, who can find good players at bargain prices, that manager being a tough, gritty, take no nonsense manager, then we look no further than Mark Hughes.

Desperate days lie ahead. Want to see Roberto succeeding and turning it round, but I don't believe he will. If he's lost the dressing room (rumours and the state of us on the pitch) I can't see it lasting much longer, Kenwright will pull the trigger when the fear of going down kicks in, remember how much it will financially hurt the club to be even in the lower half of the league, haven't we always budgeted to finish 10th just to break even?

Remember Kenwright pulled it on his great friend Walter Smith when we hit the bottom 3, I just can't see it being that close, but i'll bet as soon as we're mathamatically safe the lads will down tools and give up even if it means finishing 17th like we did that year with Moyes, we were never going down that year, but once we were safe, we took some hidings until the end of the season (5-1 away to City under Joe Royle).

I'm old enough to remember the dire straits of the Walker and Smith era's (Walter was ok in season 2 when he had the attacking line of barmby, hutchinson, collins, jeffers and campbell etc), back then I had women troubles on my mind to occupy my emotions, now that's not the case, although now I wish it was the case! Could be a long 4 months to come...

Happy New Year and let's hope we pull a rabbit out of the hat tomorrow.

How much credit can Moyes take for Naismith? none he played him as a right winger. One could even argue although I'm not that its Moyes players who are killing us this season like Howard, Distin and Jags.

What about the style, again totally different to Moyes. The systems each manager used; yep you guessed it totally different.

Just as Martinez has to take responsibility for our league position this season he should take the plaudits for last season. Nothing false about that Andy.

I don't like mentioning Brendan the Bullshitter on TW, but Martinez and him have a lot in common – everything fell good for them last season, despite many of their transfers failing (for whatever reasons). They were upbeat when the results were good but when, like this season, the results go against them. They may blame the referee, but they're also upbeat, talking about the (non-existent) positives, even though fans on Merseyside know their footy, and know positivity is one thing, but saying it like it is, is another!

It's never their fault, never the fact they play players out of position, or just plain stupid blind loyalty. They're both pathetic at the moment, and treating Merseyside fans like idiots will only quicken their own demise. I don't care what happens to the Redshite, but for us Evertonians over 50, this present drivel does compare with what Billy Bingham produced in has last 20 months or so, and what happened to him!?

Roberto is intelligent and gifted, but at the moment, he doesn't seem to be learning from his mistakes; if this continues, it will just be a matter of time before he is driven out!

I don't know if it's true but the togetherness and team spirit seems to have gone lately; unless it comes back, we are in deep, deep shit.

Here's my penny worth:

Martinez did a good job last season. He made plenty of good decisions and lots went right for us. The players appeared to enjoy using the ball more and having a method to the play.

For me, Martinez has three big issues:

First, he's a shocking judge of fitness. I think he planned the preseason before the World Cup and got it horribly wrong, hence the hastily arranged friendlies. Plus he constantly brings players back too early and/or says they're fit then doesn't play them.

Second, he's too cautious. Yes, too cautious. Has his way and sticks with it. Must be one up-front. Must be two centre-mids. Won't use set-pieces effectively, even though he won the cup with one.

Third, I think the backroom staff aren't up to scratch. I'm guessing that's where some of the reported unrest stems from. Just like the last guy, seems to like yes-men who are like him rather than a different point of view.

Put all that together with the fact that it's his first job at a big club with expectations and I think that's where he's going wrong.

Nothing wrong with the system that a bit of flexibility wouldn't put right. More importantly, he needs to get the players with him again.

The last guy had many a shocking half season and was given the chance to put it right. I predict a mid-table finish and a summer where he has the chance to learn from his mistakes and sort it out for next season. If he doesn't – time for a change.

I give you Neil Warnock.

The team are an overpaid bunch of tossers
The play is shite
The set up is shite
Shite tactics by a shite management team
They should be honoured to wear the blue shirt and presently the whole shower need sacking!
If these pricks don't get sorted we'll be visiting Elland Rd next season

I can't get to Newcastle and I will not be watching. The whole shower are a disgrace to our great club

Dreading tomorrow, I will of course have to watch but I'm not looking forward to it in the slightest. Maybe out of adversity some kind of fighting spirit will return to the players and we can get a result.

The sooner we can get back to winning ways, the better. Newcastle won't be particularly confident, I suspect, so that will hopefully help.