Martinez resolute over playing style

But when his name first came to the fore, I called him a pimp. Several times.

Sorry to say, I was right.

Already know heÂ’ll be hired as an "expert" by whatever cable company has soccer in America. Right along side Alexi Lalas.

And probably his best quote yet "..I donÂ’t work on having a good defensive record to win things..".

He really doesnÂ’t do himself any favours does he?!

La la la la..

Why oh why donÂ’t we leave Mirallas and / or McGeady on the halfway line when we defend a corner? That would force the opponents to leave 2 or 3 back and give us more space to play out or to be more direct with the counter.

We all know Roberto fancies himself as a tactician so letÂ’s see how flexible he can be and introduce a couple of stabilising changes. I for one would be happy with mid table if we could have success in the Europa League or FA Cup, but nothingÂ’s guaranteed of course, letÂ’s hope by March it doesnÂ’t drift away and were in a dogfight with nothing to show.

Only a positive run of games will blunt the knives. IÂ’m a realist 12 months ago I bought into everything this man said and achieved. Now looking at the stark reality I get what he is saying, but the performance and results are contradicting his philosophy.

Fantasy football in his mindset is all very well, however until he gets the kind of players that can play his fantasy game then he is more deluded as the fans who, believe that we are going to buy a top gk and cb.

The game against a very poor Newcastle in which we made them look good is proof that this current manager is talking utter shite.

IÂ’m embarrassed to be associated with him. I could do what others do and cut and paste his many ridiculous quotes, and make a valid argument against it.

He reminds me of Hitler when his generals where advising him that they where losing the war and we all know what happened there.

If Billy and the board have bought into all this then we are as fucked as the German army.

To any fans traveling to the Hull game, good luck – I do admire your optimism.

Taxi!

To focus on the last 2 games when weÂ’ve been poor since pre-season is bonkers.

HeÂ’s either a genius (please god let it be so) or an imbecile, that could leave Kenwright with a decision in the coming weeks.

How long does he leave it if Martinez cannot turn it around and show signs of getting enough points to protect our Premier League survival.

6 home wins will hopefully be enough... West Bromwich and Leicester coming up are must-win games, whoever the manager.

I’m not happy about the performances but we’re now on a bad run, like Man Utd were at the start of the season... like Arsenal were for a bit (they’ve got some classy fans too)... like Chelsea were for spells last season... Oh hang on – like most clubs go through from time to time actually. Give the man time. I thought Everton fans were better than this but we’re clearly not. Absolutely no different to those horrible turncoat shit houses across the park and the ungrateful, classless Wenger out brigade.

What do you expect Martinez to do? Come out and against his character say that the players are shite and Bill better get his wallet out? ThatÂ’s not his style. He showed heÂ’s not happy at Newcastle by dropping Rom and Barkley and starting Garbutt. WeÂ’ve had awful injuries and a group of players who came back severely affected by the World Cup in the summer. Robbie got Everton playing some great football last season and qualified for Europe, the year before he won the FA Cup.

Shouts of Moyes, Pulis, McClaren are ridiculous. What have they ever won and why would we want their style of play at Goodison after we finally started beating the so called Top Four teams last season? All teams that have a good run get found out. The players and the manager then they have to adapt and show some character. We havenÂ’t seen that in the last few months but it will be back because weÂ’re one of the greatest clubs on the planet. COYB

The Man has got a bigger shovel for Christmas and is in his hole digging it out to full Â’ Fuhrer Bunker Â’ size...

Is there anything youÂ’re seeing now that reflects RobertoÂ’s plan into next season or 2015-2016? HeÂ’ll only have one year left on his contract by that time.

I see him providing "expert" analysis on some network here in America by then. What do you see?

A first good season under RM but then we had that dreadfully prepared pre-season, that had the alarm bells ringing for me & I made comments to my brothers & my blue mates that we would struggle this season, of course I took a bit of stick about being far too negative.

I now see the true RM for what he is, defensively he is awful, just as one observation (there are many I know)have a look at the Newcastle game, Alcaraz is coming out of defence with the ball on the right hand side in the first half, the gap between him & Distin must be 60-70 yards!!!!!! as well as our fullbacks pushed further forward this is where we usually lose the ball,40 yards from goal at least 4-5 times a game, add Mcgeady to these tactics, 31 goals conceded, need I say anymore.

I am no tactical football guru but I know shite when I see it! more importantly, I know shite when I hear it, that interview on Sky tonight (quoted above) has pushed me over the edge. I love RM he is a really decent bloke & I would love him to turn it around, but at this point in time I just canÂ’t see it.

What was his contract, four years? HeÂ’s been in the job 18 months or so now and you have to say that the majority of it has been very pleasing.

Lately it has been utter dross and I struggle to see where heÂ’s going with it. IÂ’m not against people having a pop at him. He received enough adulation when things were rosy. However comments like Â’Love to see this guys next jobÂ’ just seem to be sticking the knife in without any intelligence or justification.

My hopes for the future are that we start seeing the kind of football I was in awe of last season. The Newcastle game at home for example. I was practically welling up I was so happy to see the Blues playing like that. Can Martinez deliver that consistently? I donÂ’t know...but I do think he deserves a chance. The last one had 11 years after all.

Assuming that the success of last season was a combination of Moyes strong set-up and a more adventurous approach, thereÂ’s not much evidence that a full conversion to the Martinez style will bring us long term league success. I think itÂ’s worth the risk, until relegation becomes a threat. WeÂ’re not quite at that stage yet.

And in the next breath:
"I will allow the results to speak for themselves" Err I think they are doing.

Followed by:
"But the pundits are only assessing those two games — they haven’t got the deep information or focus from watching that team over 18 months"

Well I have.

And to Phil 25
"HeÂ’s been in the job 18 months or so now and you have to say that the majority of it has been very pleasing."

No, I donÂ’t have to say any such thing.

I think he started well by adding something different to the solid foundation he inherited, and not much more than that.
Then I think he was found out, plain busted in fact, in the worst way possible by his erstwhile apprentice at the worst possible place. Then other managers took note and adapted whilst he stood still wrapped up in his philosophy - to a degree which seems obsessive/compulsive to me - and continued (and still continues) to serve us up on a plate to anyone who just applied the correct and simple countering tactics. So back to March/April would be roughly half of the 18 months you refer to.

He has also spunked away money on some very poor buys and on aged players with zero sell on value and seems to be destroying much of the graft-based foundation he inherited to chase his tiki taka-lite based dream. Even the best exponents of this, the Spanish national team, and to an extent Barcelona have been countered eventually by much lesser teams and Martinez is no Del Bosque either, nor are Barry et al Xavi or Iniesta. These last two would be the most "outstanding" practitioners of the system he refers to, no?

Football moves on but Martinez seems to want to stand still just to prove a point, and he is failing to do so badly.

The last time being at Wigan by any chance?

Oh sorry I forgot this was all down to Moyes even though 6 regular starters had nothing to do with the man.

DonÂ’t leave the site mate because we need proper fans on here who support the blues through thick and thin. This is RobertoÂ’s first rocky spell and our supporters have shown patience in the past with managers who didnÂ’t have the credit in the bank that this one does.

"Laying down the gaunlet to his players"

Managers never win these battles.

Moyes at Manure
AVB at Chelsea and Spurs
Hodgson at the RS
Alladyce at the Barcodes

These and many other have all bit the dust with their "philosophy" flying.
The style you play must fit the players you have until you have the players that will fit the style you wish to play. If your players are unable or unwilling to play the style you wish them to play then you must accomodate them. Because as I have already shown examples of in a battle between manager and players the manager will inevitably lose and get the sack because the players will inevitably lose matches which in turn threatens the status of the club.

From reading between the lines this battle is raging at Everton and as we can all see itÂ’s damaging the club an threatening our PL status. He does not have the players to play like some Barcalona on the Mersey so he must change his style to match the players at his disposal.

If he cannot do this he will have sacked himself and proven himself too rigid in his thinking and lacking in tactical awareness.

I just hope he doesnÂ’t drag the club down with him and BK sees the light before itÂ’s too late.

ThatÂ’s what itÂ’s supposed to be, at least. ItÂ’s clearly not been that way this season after the first few games, where we got badly stung. WeÂ’ve lost confidence and thus the attacking momentum and the *good* risk taking that was present has fallen off, and now weÂ’re too ponderous. I hope/assume that the slow nature of our build up is not what weÂ’re talking about when RM says we wonÂ’t change.

Does anyone really think a quick short passing game with positive attacking intent is *not* a philosophy worth sticking to?

Performances have to change. Tactical flexibility has to change. Much improvement has to be made. A philosophy about how we play the game doesnÂ’t have to.

Also, can we please stop throwing the Wigan relegation at him as if itÂ’s all about him? He had to take a team with already the lowest budget in the league and cut their wages by 22% so they were self sustaining, itÂ’s not like he drove them into decline from a solid position without extenuating circumstances.

The squad will probably be the oldest ever assembled in the premier league, especially if he gives Alcaraz a new contract.

The club will survive relegation this year for sure. Not so sure about next year though.

Reminds me a bit of Keegan under Newcastle. And we all know what happened there. At least that team could score goals.

A little pragmatism might go a long way.

I hope he can turn it around but the signs donÂ’t look good.

Billy Blue Balls needs a caretaker manager on speed-dial as I would give him till the end on January to turn things around, and then pull the pin if nothingÂ’s changed.

I guess what happens below us will dictate his future as much as what we do. Even if we start playing better, we still need to be picking up points.

He certainly isnÂ’t doing his own career any favours with his sheer pig-headedness....................never-mind our own clubÂ’s future.

COYB

No problem if the transition happens without the loss of too many points, while those who canÂ’t are shipped out and those who can are brought along (existing first teamers) or brought through (from the U21s) or brought in (on new signings).

Saying "get behind the manager" because weÂ’re in a period of transition - well, I understand that but fear time might not be on our side, with a relegation battle facing us. The biggest judgement now will be with Bill - to decide that we can "transition" sufficiently this season while staying up and hang on to RM; or to decide that we will lose too many points over the rest of the season, regardless of the degree of "transition" and replace RM, and if so, at what point he does that and who with.

I donÂ’t know whether RM can pull the rabbit from the hat in time this season. So itÂ’s all in BillÂ’s hands. A nail-biting second half of the season beckons.

Great post.
The best post I have read on ToffeeWeb for a long time.

My only contribution is that the players have to take some responsibility as well for the way they play. Too many players making individual errors which unfortunately end up in the back of the net. You canÂ’t always blame the style of play imposed on them by the manager. The players we currently have know what is expected. If they are good enough they should be able to play in a variety of positions and deal with it. They managed it last year to good effect.

As hard as it is to see the team playing in what appears an inept way week in week out, we as Everton fans should back the players and management and try to be more patient and give some confidence back to the team. Booing the team is not helpful. Football is all about confidence. Support the team. We are Everton fans. LetÂ’s not start whining like other teamÂ’s supporters

Happy New Year

Well said mate.
Especially the last paragraph.

When we do get in a good attacking position, the possession game goes out the window. When we SHOULD be playing ticka tacka, and trying to set up a decent scoring chance, we seem to run out of ideas.

At the start of last season, I wasnÂ’t sure RMÂ’s way was the way to go. The play was slow and sluggish, and none of the team looked comfortable playing out from the back. And then from about the Derby onwards, everything seem to fall into place. It made watching Everton truly enjoyable!

WeÂ’re about halfway through this season and the Blues are playing worse than at any time last season. The keeper and the back 4 are Swiss cheese, and the forwards seem to be hesitant going forward, because of it.

Injuries, old age and what appears to be a lack of commitment in key players, has made RMÂ’s second season a bit of a grind thus far. The World Cup didnÂ’t help either, for a number of reasons that have been discussed at length on TW already.

Some have suggested that RM has lost the dressing room. IÂ’m not so sure about that, although it must be a really depressing place, these days.

The only way to right things, is to throw some money at it. We need some younger blood at the back. All of our problems begin and end with the keeper and the CBs!!!

Well, if your style is not winning games, then evidently, you are not very good at what you do. And so changing, or at least adapting your style would seem flagrantly necessary.

Can somebody please inform Roberto about a man named Charles Darwin!

Seriously, last season was successful partly because a new style was adapted, any semi-decent opposition manger studies that and ADAPTS to handle it. Therefore……. Any good manger would adapt, evolve and rotate strategies accordingly. He doesn’t have to sacrifice his philosophy to do that. It’s not a binary choice like he seems to view it.

I like Martinez but……… the content of that recent interview is cause for concern.

With his cavalier, debonair outlook, he could easily take us down. His fine words are not backed up by fine team selections and tactics. No club in the PL could play the way he wants with McGeady in the side. Ditto: Robles, Alcaraz and even Osman.

As I have said elsewhere, RM is an ideologue, and his idea(l)s always precede reality, even the reality of relegation - aka the unthinkable.

RobertoÂ’s Everton is beginning to look more and more like foolÂ’s gold. I do hope IÂ’m wrong.

However I do not think the negativity against Roberto is knee jerk. The whole season has been a bad run apart from the Europa league where to be honest we have had Lady Luck firmly on our side.
It started with a dismal pre-season and false promises about the number if new players we could expect.
The league form has been dismal all season and the managers comments constantly defending the style of play and the performances do not help.
At what point can fans with "class" who also pay a lot of money to support the team, raise concerns over what is happening?

Those who are baffled by some of RMÂ’s apparent contradictions still know their history and love the club, past and present.

Give him time and he gets my full support, enough said!

Billy "he had me at Champions League" Liar needs to get off the fence and back him or sack him.

What am I saying ?! The only time you see his smug mug is on the big screens at GP. If we get beat by West Ham in the Cup you wonÂ’t even see that.

I thought his post match utterances after defeat to the Barcodes were bad enough but this latest set of utterances from Roberto are the most worrying yet. When was the last time you were worried about relegation in December ?

Last season the system worked. For whatever reason this season it hasnÂ’t, and having witnessed the Stoke game first hand I canÂ’t see it bearing fruit moving forward. We have been found out and the players know it.

Something has to change, and if Martinez isnÂ’t going to change, someone has to change him.

BK I think will keep faith with him for now,but things need to improve big time otherwise he should go. The problem is there isnÂ’t any managers of any pedrigree available.

LetÂ’s see what the January window brings in terms of players, but IÂ’m not holding my breath. Like most Blues I feel disappointed, angry,and could almost cry with frustration over our pathetic performances.

Maybe this is a bad dream, and IÂ’ll wake up to find it is August 2014, and the season hasnÂ’t started yet !!!!!!

So why did he change it when he took over from Moyes?

I guess IÂ’ve known character types like Martinez in real life: charming, positive - but looking away when they donÂ’t like what they see (selective vision). They talk well and love to look good, above all, but donÂ’t/canÂ’t always act well (ask Distin and Oviedo). Life is more real than that. IÂ’m not asking him to change his philosophy - but he does need to acknowledge the problems and adapt/adjust. ThatÂ’s different from changing his philosophy.

Personally, IÂ’m not willing to give RM a chance IF it means relegation. As we witnessed with his words after Wigan were relegated, he took it quite lightly, praising himself for winning the FA Cup. I wouldnÂ’t want that for Everton. I have terrible nightmares of us going down and Roberto talking about the great nights in the Europa Cup against Lyon and Wolfsburg. I donÂ’t want that.

I agree each fan is entitled to their own opinion.

We have the phrase "blind loyalty" being posted more and more on TW.
It is certainly not blind loyalty from me,nor I imagine the vast majority backing Martinez.
We are not blind we can see what is happening on the pitch.
Blind no,loyal yes.
"Reasoned argument" is good,booing is unacceptable in my opinion.
To reverse your point,many of the people trashing Martinez are the people who showed blind loyalty to Moyes.
I myself have been accused of blind loyalty,one fool labelled me a sycophant,but that is ok given he probably doesnÂ’t know the definition of the word.

As supporters we should get fully behind the team for 90 minutes.
Have your reasoned argument in the pub,workplace or wherever NOT booing at the game.

Steven Telford,
What position does Darwin play?

I must be naive. Priceles

"Changing only brings doubts." — Yes you are right to a degree... but it also brings doubt to the opposition. If you train with different styles, it doesn’t bring doubt to your team. Remember what Garbutt said — we did train with the system.

IÂ’ve been in this situation too many times. Yes, Roberto we know season after season you were escaping relegation until you were found out. You must be the luckiest manager around because our beloved leader fell for it and here you go again.

IÂ’ve news for you, Roberto, we at Everton know our football and we can see a spoofer at a distance. Your bullshit was good enough for the pie eaters and peg leg but we donÂ’t buy it anymore.

HereÂ’s to hoping we murder Hull.

But I fear Bruce will turn the KC stadium into a bear pit and our pretty meek lambs wont stand a chance.

Are these the same people who are happy with the way the country is run? Â’Stop complaining about Cameron and get behind the governmentÂ’

Is it really that surprising that on a dedicated EVERTON website that people are complaining when we lose?

Only on ToffeeWeb

I mean lets face it if things were great and we were top 6 we wouldnÂ’t be moaning and criticising.

But things arenÂ’t great, its abject shite at the moment and I think its only correct we all collectively on an Everton discussion web site ask what the fuck is going on, without people jumping on your back after every post.

Now whoÂ’s not getting behind the team? Stop booing your own players, Roberto! Or is he just telling it as he sees it?

19 PL managers now have 1 less team to worry about or plan for as weÂ’ve been worked out already. Happy new year

I can well imagine that your thoughts of following RMs philosophy was a kin to what those who took part in the " The Charge of the Light Brigade thought of their leaders tactics. But as history proved their leaders tactics were reckless and disastrous the philosophy they followed meant they lost their lives were for us only relegation looms I fear although maybe not this season.

This makes it easy for teams to condense the pitch and more awkward for us to play his Tip tap style of football. If he wants to play possession based football like Barcelona he has to realize you have to play at a quicker tempo to get teams out of position not the testimonial pace we play at. Also we never press the ball in packs like Barcelona trying to win the ball back high up the pitch. It is just too easy for teams to get from their own box to our box without us hardly putting a tackle in (thereÂ’s only Burnley with less tackles than us).

When all are fit, I would like to see a 3-4-1-2 formation and push the team 20 yards up the pitch instead of trying to play from our own goal line. My team would be as follows:

Howard/ Robles for now
Jagielka
Stones
Garbutt
Coleman
Besic
McCarthy
Baines
Mirallas
Kone
Lukaku

That team for me would have good legs to get about the pitch with the solidity of two holding players protecting. IÂ’m not one of LukakuÂ’s biggest fans but to spend 㿈 million on a player and not play to his strengths is unbelievable. ThatÂ’s why I would like to see him paired with Kone who does like to come short with Rom going the other way as this gives defenders a question of who to go with.

I donÂ’t know whether this will work but just want us to try different things as what were doing is certainly not working and is easy to play against.

" I donÂ’t work on having a good defensive record to win things."

Every other manager in the world, in particular ones that win things build a team from the defence. That one sentence has just summed up Martinez for the obstinate clueless imbecile that he is. And all this talk of this being him laying a gauntlet down to the players !!! Haha utter drivel ! The man has no discipline or backbone, hence our lack of fitness and tactical strength and positioning on a football pitch.

IÂ’ve said it once IÂ’ll say it again, Roberto Cretinez must go !!!

I have had a season ticket for 20 years, IÂ’ve been to away games from Sunderland to Southampton, Newcastle to Norwich. IÂ’m a level headed bloke and IÂ’m not known for hitting the panic button, IÂ’ve never called for a manager to be sacked or booed the team off. As far as iÂ’m concerned Martinez has serious questions to answer. IÂ’m not calling for his head, but I will be if he doesnÂ’t turn this round - and quickly. Sitting idly by twiddling your thumbs while the future of the football club is in potential jeopardy is not Â’classÂ’, itÂ’s stupidity.

Can we also cut out this ridiculous Â’weÂ’re Everton, we donÂ’t do thatÂ’ stuff. Ask Bingham, Lee, Harvey, Kendall, Royle or Smith if Everton give people time. Ask Catterick if he felt being acosted by fans for dropping a player was Â’classyÂ’ or Kendall if he felt he had great support when there were leaflets asking for him to be sacked being handed out. Goodison has always been just as hostile to itÂ’s own as it can be to the opposition, despite what people like Ian and Paul might want you to believe.

In terms of the football, thereÂ’s been a lot of talk this season about Â’individual errorsÂ’ but in reality very few of them have been simple mistakes by one player. IÂ’d class an individual error as something like Distin at Wembley, Howard/Osman on boxing day last year, or Stevie G against Chelsea. All of these were situations you would be happy to be in before one error leaves you horribly exposed, theyÂ’re very difficult to guard against. The second goal on sunday, for example, was nothing like that. A poor punch by Robles, botched clearance by Barry, silly pass from Baines, poor positioning and pass by McGeady, and Coleman (a fullback!) already ahead of the ball 30 yards from our own goal. ThatÂ’s a coaching issue, not an individual error. Same thing with SouthamptonÂ’s first. You can look at Lukaku putting the ball in his own net and say itÂ’s an error, or you can actually analyse it and see that Barkley didnÂ’t track Clyne, meaning a cross came into the box too easily, Naismith played a ridiculous pass back into his own box, Jagielka made a hash of his challenge and Howard failed to come for the corner. All before it got to that stage. There are serious flaws in how weÂ’re playing and they are not being ironed out. WeÂ’re not talking 2 games or even 2 months here, but going right back to last season.

I think he should realise now that the players overall are not good enough to play the way he likes too.
If we had City, Chelsea players, yes by all means play possession football but we havnÂ’t, we cant afford to buy a team of their overall class.

Even if we were doing well at the moment, IÂ’m getting very concerned about the number of aged players that are all going to have to be replaced in the near future, I wouldnÂ’t want to be in his shoes when this moment arrives.

Whoever is our manager is though, our ability to win something each season is blighted by not having enough money to compete with the very best teams, hence the barrenness our last 20yrs.

I think 99% of us realise this is the root cause whichever style we play!

You are right,previous managers got the booing.
The fans were wrong then and they are wrong now.

The views about Roberto on here, are however at loggerheads with the views of my circle. Yes, obviously everyone is worried – and by no means happy. I have friends who have booed and who have strong, negative views on certain players. However, almost to a man, every Everton fan I know, wants Roberto to stay (the truth). This is why I find it so confusing when I come onto ToffeeWeb every day and read the negativity.

I am not berating anyone, we all want the same thing, great football with the chance of a trophy, I just know that the majority of views I am reading on here, are at odds with what I am hearing from my friends and aquaintances.

I thoroughly enjoyed most of last season, and loved our attacking verve, the first few games of this season. What has happened since is not acceptable. Therefore, should we get rid? Unfortunately, football fans are notoriously fickle (yet want faith off players/staff etc) and in that sense we are exactly the same as Stoke or Spurs fans. It is usually he who shouts loudest that gets heard and it is simply not in human nature to shout in support of someone when others around you are vehemently attacking him.

Obviously I would keep Roberto and feel that Bill will. However, it is the long term that I worry – when Roberto gets it right, and that is surely what as Everton fans we all want, after all some of last season’s stuff was scintillating football.

When he is tempted by another bigger club, will he think, "This is a special club with special fans" or will, as I suspect, will he consider us just exactly the same as anyone else. In that case why would any player/ manager not move?

Finally the point I am getting at is that I fully believe he will eventually get it right (Moyes finished 17th, 4th then 11th in successive seasons before getting us stability as a top 6-8 side playing dire football – even the 4th position had us with a -1 goal difference) but we must keep the faith. We all want the same thing but at Everton, it’s never simple.

I was at the home match in 1983, I think it was against Coventry, I think we drew 0-0, it was a night match with about 13,000 fans there. I was in the Main Stand and the abuse Kendall and the team took (that fact is right!) was merciless. Thankfully for me and my age group, EvertonÂ’s hierarchy kept the faith.

In a nutshell mate.
We will never have the funds while Kenwright and co are in charge.
The only possible way to compete is to build a team and squad that is comfortable playing the system you want them to.
This will take a few seasons for any manager to bring players in and work players out.
We have to back him to have any chance of this happening,it is a long term project

Its worrying Martinez inherited some pretty solid defensive foundations now its like Martinez has eroded them away.

I agree there has been individual errors BUT it smacks to me they are errors that have come from the coaching or lack of it. We have no discipline or fail safe at the back anymore. Teams know if they pressure us we will give them a present eventually.

After the woeful run we have had and the fact our next league game is against Man City, a draw against Hull, for a second time in the space of a month will not be good enough.

No disrespect to Hull but at present they are a very poor team, aalthough to be fair they could actually say the same about us, they will fancy their chances at home to us, but IÂ’m seeing it only from a Everton perspective and the way I see it is if we are failing to beat Hull AGAIN just who are we going to beat?

This is why Moyes was perfect for a lot of them. He had them drilled in a basic formation that they understood. When it went wrong Moyes fronted up to the press, took all the blame, protected them, and then rewarded them with big contracts. In the few moments however when Moyes could not help them their pitiful weakness was laid bare for all to see. Countless times when they came close to achievement under Moyes they choked like the spineless bunch they are. Everyone at the time blamed Moyes for this but I always blamed the players. At home to Wigan, a side Moyes had never lost to in the league, with your best team out, to lose 3-0 was all the players. Moyes had set them up for these big moments through player acquisition, training, league performance, cup runs, but as soon as it came to the moment he was looking for them to pay him back they failed him every single time.

The same happened last season as well. Motoring along brilliantly while the pressure is off until the crunch came. Last minute at Goodison v Liverpool - conceded, Anfield derby - went for the worst loss of the season, up game with Arsenal on the ropes - gave away a needless pen to shoot ourselves in the foot, home game against palace with champions league in our hands - choked. Again RM had set up a way of playing that had produced results but when he looked for his players to give something back in the big moments they were unable to.

The problem for Martinez this season is he is asking his players to play different formations in different positions with complicated tactics. To play it well it requires pace, physical fitness, tactical discipline, in game management, and leadership and responsibility. Does it work? Potentially yes when you saw average Wigan sides at the end of seasons going away to Arsenal and Liverpool and winning and beating Everton and City away from home in the cup. When done right the theory behind MartinezÂ’s logic is indisputable, you can build a possession based machine that starves the opposition as we saw to our peril in that infamous cup game.

The problem is the players just do not have the mental aptitude to play it. He has given them responsibility and they cannot handle it. If Martinez was managing one of the top Italian or Spanish sides he would have no problem. This group of player however would only thrive under a control freak like Mourinho or Ferguson. Even Wenger I donÂ’;t think would do anything for them. They need to be told almost to the second exactly what to do. Thats why when it went to plan under Moyes it looked so good, they were safe, confident, and knew exactly what to do as they had been told in training all week. As soon as it goes wrong however, away from plan, not expected, they just fold. They do not have the characters to then impose their own will on a game, rescue a situation and get the plan back on track, or god forbid change the plan mid way through a game to find a solution without the manager drip feeding it to you at half time. Martinez is trying to give this group of players the ability to have a plan A B and C and alter it mid game. It does not work however as this group can barely handle a plan A.

I hope Martinez can turn it around as I like him, I think theoretically he is a very good manager and as fans we should back him to reshape a squad that has achieved jack all. I fear, however, that he will never achieve the results him and us want because he has a useless group of players who only perform in their comfort zone when the pressure is off and will never accept responsibility for anything. This is the exact opposite to Everton tradition which normally saw teams who would raise their game in the big moments, less talented players who would stand up and be counted when the pressure was really on like relegation battles, less talented teams who would win trophies against the odds. Even recent players like Campbell Ferguson Carsley even Cahill all despite playing in poorer teams have that Â’EvertonÂ’ spirit about them. Taking responsibility, showing leadership, leading by example, performing when it matters when it is the most difficult to do so when everyone else is playing badly.

Not one player in this current group of over privileged cowards has any of these traits and ultimately that will probably be what buries Martinez like it did for Moyes.

I sincerely hope that those who think we will get over our worries by backing the manager are correct. I have expressed similar views myself but there comes a point when results/performances and principles of loyalty come into conflict, and it is no betrayal of the club to have that in mind when commenting on here.

I think Martinez seemed to have this strange post World Cup philosophy for training/preseason for the players.

What ever it is/was it was bollocks. We started the season not ready and weÂ’ve been playing catch up ever since. Maybe thats where our injuries are coming from, unfit players pushing too hard. Either way the players conditioning is all over the place.

Look at Bayern Munich that whole first team was practically the German world cup squad that went all the way to the final and played extra time twice.

Yet Guardiola insisted all players came back on schedule and they have walked the german league so far.

In my Profession we have a term commonly referred to as "burnout" (emersing yourself solely in your work) showing yourself lack of care.

This way its easy to Loose sight of the goal so to speak and from what I hear, RM is totally obsessive with respect to learning his philosophy. Nothing wrong with this I suppose, as long as you come away now and then to get a better perspective and digest what you have learnt.

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Rummenigge accused his clubÂ’s rivals of rejecting BayernÂ’s request to delay the start of the 2014/15 season in order to gain an advantage from their World Cup-winning playersÂ’ late return to pre-season training.

The new campaign commences on August 22, with BayernÂ’s players - of whom seven were involved in the World Cup final - in training for only a few weeks at that stage.

Rummenigge had requested at a meeting of club managers several months ago for a longer holiday to be given to those players involved in the World Cup by putting the start of the season back a week.

However, that suggestion was dismissed by the other Bundesliga sides and SchalkeÂ’s director of sport Horst Heldt has defended the decision.

"In the end, itÂ’s not just the big clubs who matter," Heldt told the Bild newspaper.

"We think the start date is correct. We want to see the Bundesliga played in nice weather while there are also plenty of clubs who need the revenue because the break has already been going since May.

"We also had players involved in the World Cup, but we are on the side of the Bundesliga and donÂ’t feel the criticism is aimed at us."

HeldtÂ’s Borussia Monchengladbach counterpart Max Eberl also cannot understand why Rummenigge is making an issue out of a date agreed upon at least a year in advance.

"We have this after every tournament, but itÂ’s not only Bayern who are affected - nearly everybody else is also," he said.

"Solidarity applies to 36 clubs, not just to one."

ThatÂ’s incorrect Daniel.
The Bayern World Cup players returned to training late

Look at Mirallas against Stoke. The only time I’ve seen someone do that this year was Mirallas at Wolfsburg. Then alright, it’s ok that hes not changing his style of play because he’s the manager but how the heck can he not realise that it’s slow tempo?

If you look at Chelsea early this season and how fast their tempo was. Last season, I enjoyed watching Everton because it was quick tempo and positive. This season, it’s like you’re playing with 11 Phil Nevilles. Every game its backwards.

Also, where is Besic? Him and McCarthy seem like the only players who show passion on the pitch. Barry looks like he’s under 3 feet of water. Besic and McCarthy work hard every game. How is Lukaku worth 㿈 million.

But it’s not individual errors. The second Newcastle goal, the goalie coach should teach Robles when to punch and how to punch. Barry should know how to clear that one, so that was an error. Baines should get rid of it but that was Martinez’s style... and McGeady is his style. But we’ve all got to stick by the players because they’re in a relegation battle now.

In almost 50 years of active support I have NEVER known a time when Evertonians would QUIETLY accept performances that they knew to be below par. And why should they ? And strangely it is so often those who never go near a ground who criticise those who do !

Now itÂ’s not that IÂ’m advocating the practice of verbal displeasure being thrown at the team but I do understand itÂ’s because people care enough to feel let down - particularly those who travel the land in the cause.

I know that I have never given Martinez a prayer of long-lasting success since he came here. Last season, he surprised me but the fears returned with his laissez-faire attitude towards pre-season. What has happened since has shown him as the one dimensional manager I always thought him to be as he has tried to make players fit the style rather than play to their strengths.

Any Latics supporter will tell you that with Roberto it was always Â’style over resultsÂ’. ItÂ’s as though style alone will garner the points - and, of course it wonÂ’t. Even if he succeeds in making every member an artist of the accurate pass there is absolutely no guarantee it will bring results and, over time, even the very best managers have come to realise so.

Only this week, LVG has been moved to say, Â’Some of my players are not confident enough to pick out more intricate passes. But there is much to be said for a more direct approach at times. People talk about long balls and short balls but football is all about playing the right balls. Too often the obsession with playing the ball through each compartment of the team again and again slows teams down. So we must change.Â’

Would that be Martinez talking. Instead of the balls heÂ’s coming out with !

As for his latest comments, well, the guys not for changing, so now we all know. Personally, I am beginning to think that Everton have just gone in circles since Kendall 87, with a complete lack of leaders and desire to succeed as a team. I now realise that it was Kendall going was the catalyst. I am not blaming him either.

Since then very few "winners" have either managed or played for us and itÂ’s shown. Gradually, the ethos of Everton being a feared opponent has dwindled and is now accepted in football (not by Everton fans) as "steady Everton".

I can only see success again by accepting only the "winning mentality" - anything else should be ignored. I donÂ’t believe we have players who show this. I think they are over coached/cosseted to the point of needing to be guided,literally, through games and cant make there own decisions. Thus you end up in stagnation.

All IÂ’d like for the next few years is to see Everton change this mind set.

If this is a power struggle between manager and players then as others have said the manager usually loses. It really is a critical moment for him and I hope he has the courage and self-awareness to win through, I really do.

If Pulis gets the WBA job this site will be interesting on Jan 19th.......

People can rail and gnash their teeth in pubs or on websites all they want but the only real guarantee any fan has that they can be heard and make their true feelings known is when the team, management and board are physically gathered in the same place at the match so why should fans not vent their feelings when they know they are watching shite?

It is actually extremely rare to hear widespread boos during a game, it is almost always reserved for the final whistle which is an appropriate time to register a verdict from fans who have shown enough "class" to get off their behind and go and actually support the club in a totally positive way through thick and, much more often, thin. IÂ’ve never met a fan who has specifically gone to the game to boo, but they may exist I suppose.

So what if theyÂ’re booed too? Who are these delicate flowers who are so traumatised by a bit of a deserved heckle? If they are badly affected rather than rolling up the sleeves and adopting an "IÂ’ll show Â’em" attitude then maybe thatÂ’s part of the problem right there.

ItÂ’s not like the pitch is getting pelted with bottles or even cushions - because I have very vivid memories as a kid of that happening on more than one occasion

So where does that leave us

As always with the Blues, more questions than answers.

I feel then, that Roberto has to ( given your premise ) make the best of what he has and slowly work towards the new improved Catalan all singing all dancing footballing New Jerusalem aka Â’The PhilosophyÂ’ by watering down ( how ever he may hate it ) the dose and slowly as he gets the players, up the strength of the dose as he goes...If he tries to give it to us 100% uncut he will kill the patient / patience.

So where does that leave us

As always with the Blues, more questions than answers.

I feel then, that Roberto has to ( given your premise ) make the best of what he has and slowly work towards the new improved Catalan all singing all dancing footballing New Jerusalem aka Â’The PhilosophyÂ’ by watering down ( how ever he may hate it ) the dose and slowly as he gets the players, up the strength of the dose as he goes...If he tries to give it to us 100% uncut he will kill the patient / patience.

We are half way through the season, and have yet to play one game with a full squad available.

We have had the extra games and travel of the Europa league to contend with, and yet we only added 2 players to an already small squad.

Howard, Distin and Lukaku have all had poor season, but have had to play.

Stones, Barkley, Mirallas and McCarthy have all had serious injuries and have had to be rushed back.

In short, we do not have the numbers to compete seriously for more than one trophy, unless we have a lucky run where injuries are concerned.

We have had some issues with referees, as usual.

I donÂ’t think itÂ’s as simple asÂ’the managerÂ’s faultÂ’ or Â’the playersÂ’ faultÂ’

He was then introduced because there was no alternative when Barry was injured and by consensus he has been our most impressive and forceful player, showing real commitment and. a willingness to take the game to the opposition.

Lo and behold he is then left out as soon as Barry is fit again and, by all accounts, the lad is now fed up.

I donÂ’t excuse such an attitude if he is indeed sulking, but it is this sort of tentativeness with young talent and insistence upon picking older players (he bangs on about this again in the latest quotes) which in my view is a major problem for the team brought about by RM.

We picked up 11 points from 15 during a period over the end of October into November - was that really Champions League form though?

We arenÂ’t going to get relegated, he should be given a chance to sort it out.

Unfortunately it can only work if everyone is 100% committed and they are both comfortable and proficient in their allotted roles. All this plus a ferocious will to win.

Okay, Bielsa and Klopp have proved that you can build good sides on a limited budget but these guys are brutal and do not tolerate laziness or mistakes. They also play non-stop vertical football with five men in the opposition box when attacking and all eleven fully committed to defending. Sounds like hell on earth for the players but they actually love and admire their coaches.

Exactly how Martinez sees his dream team performing is anyoneÂ’s guess. At their best, Besic, McCarthy, Mirallis, Coleman, Baines, Garbutt, Lukaku, Oviedo, EtoÂ’o, Kone and Stones fit the bill. Naismith and Jags are willing but lack technical ability. Barkley is an enigma. Has all the talent in the world but has an inconsistent attitude. Barry has the know-how but lacks pace.

We need strengthening at the back, a good keeper and speed on the wings. Above all, we need good, clear, precise coaching. "El Loco" Bielsa lectures his sides 24/7. He hammers everything home, as do Mourinho, Klopp, Guardiola, Van Gaal and Simeone. Their boys never look confused. Our boys are almost scratching their heads.

Anyway, New Year tomorrow and weÂ’ll see how it goes. While Roberto is the manager and our lads are wearing blue, weÂ’ll give them our support. DoesnÂ’t mean we canÂ’t have a real good moan if things are not going well. Cheers everyone. Have a good one. H.

EtoÂ’o and Barry arenÂ’t chokers with the careers theyÂ’ve had, clearly. So thatÂ’s at least two out. We have four Wigan players who were able to win the FA Cup with them, Distin and Howard have won the same competition so why would they suddenly freeze when playing in a cup game for us? ColemanÂ’s won a play-off final at Wembley and Gibson has a few medals from his United days. Did McGeady or Mirallas have a reputation for bottling it when playing in big games for their previous clubs? Not that iÂ’m aware of. In the past you could swap the likes of Neville, Heitinga and Saha in for those mentioned and the same would apply.

IÂ’m not sure itÂ’s a mental thing to be honest, more that when it comes to the crunch, the players arenÂ’t quite that good. This has been borne out by the careers of players like Arteta, Pienaar and Fellaini when theyÂ’ve moved on. All very good players here who were pretty average when they went elsewhere.

Besic should be one of the first names on the sheet.
Barry has not got the legs to play the high intensity high tempo game we should be playing.

Its obviously only half the tale, our central defenders whoevers played have been found wanting most of the time in the air and sometimes over the ground.
This attacking full backs lark is asking Baines and Coleman to get through mountains of going forward and back, which cant be helping the defence.

Its when we lose possession high up the field, that finds us exposed and vulnerable + we are very poor when crosses in the air arrive in our penalty area.
The defenders are probably the most experienced in the League but this season are playing like inexperienced 18yr olds!

Time to rein in the full backs and think more defence! + we want another central defender pronto.

Only good thing to come out of it is that weÂ’ll get to the crossroads sooner rather than later. Either there will be an upturn in results (doubtful but not unimaginable) or the results will continue to be shit and BK will have to act sooner rather than later (probable scenario).

Personally I just cannot see how the players will continue to back him if a) they donÂ’t like the system, which then leads to b) the performances and results are not up to scratch.

Very strange comments indeed. HeÂ’s either so wrapped up in his belief that the system will eventually work or his stubbornness wonÂ’t allow him to change.

Either way I really cannot see him being our manager for much longer - there seems to be something wrong in general and the players donÂ’t appear to be happy.

Nevermind the injuries!

IÂ’ve repeatedly stated on here that Martinez has performed shockingly badly since the summer. HeÂ’s a poor judge of fitness and heÂ’s lost the ability to get the best out of his players. The teamÂ’s position is his reponsibility and if he canÂ’t work with the players, heÂ’ll be off and deservedly so.

I just donÂ’t buy into this bullshit that the good stuff last season happened despite Martinez and that he has now emptied the playersÂ’ heads of all their confidence and ability. How badly are these players working for the cause right now? IÂ’ll happily comment on MartinezÂ’s shortcomings, but the players arenÂ’t immune either.

If you read JamesÂ’ post again, youÂ’ll notice his main point is the mental weakness of the players. IÂ’ve noticed that as much as James over the past ten years. Perhaps calling them cowards is a bit strong, but IÂ’ve used stronger words than that over their choking, regardless of who is manager.

Like IÂ’ve said regularly over the last year, these players can pass the ball quickly, they can attack at pace, they can create chances, they havenÂ’t miraculously forgotten how to defend. Right now they canÂ’t/wonÂ’t do this. They look like spoilt sulking kids waiting for the other parent to give them their next treat.

The chief culprit is always the manager in my book, but a bit of spine from the players wouldnÂ’t go amiss. The question is, have they got one and therein lies the point of JamesÂ’ post.

Regardless of what Martinez spouts in front of a microphone, one of these scenarios will happen in the next few weeks:

Kenwright sacks Martinez.
The players get Martinez to change tack.
Martinez gets the players back and we live happily ever after.
The players go to Kenwright and tell him to sack Martinez.

My moneyÂ’s on the last one.

Happy New Year to all Blues everywhere and look forward to the same fun and games on here in 2015.

We do have a good squad of players and whilst I have to admit they are not looking good playing this system, surely a good coach whist not dropping his own beliefs gets the most out of his squad by adapting his system and not trying to change the players (playing them out of position etc) playing to a style they are not happy with and making them do things against their natural ability?

What worries me is that RM seems to think the decline is just been these past few games when it's been plain to see it started towards the end of last season and our pre-season was symbolic to say the least, plus his defensive strategy is very disconcerting!

When Moyes left we all wanted a side that was tough to beat but also one that was less restricted in its attacking intent. We got the latter with Martinez and the side seemed to have retained its defensive solidity. But gradually that solidity waned, perhaps because of RM plugging more the virtues of passing from the back and scoring more goals, perhaps because of the loss of mobility as Jagielka and Distin aged and suffered injuries.

Whatever the factors, that solidity has now completely gone. The natural response, initially at least, would be to afford the back line more protection from the midfield. But instead, unbelieavably, the manager has seemingly gone the other way by selecting unbalanced sides with too many whose input on non-attacking duties is erratic and at times non-existent. No wonder official OPTA stats show Everton at the foot of the Â’tackles madeÂ’ table.

I honestly think that if tomorrowÂ’s display and result is as bad as for the majority of recent games then BK will act relatively quickly. Even he will have a threshold of whatÂ’s acceptable and an understanding of when inaction brings with it too many risks. He did, after all, take the necessary timely action to relieve Smith of his duties. And now, with other, less transparent, financial interests involved, there will anyway be added pressures on him.

Most players are simple souls. They want to do their thing on the pitch each week, receive a bit of praise in the media, and most of all, they want to come out of any game without criticism. Who do you think Jagielka & Distin are privately blaming for all the goals we are conceding? They are being made to look bad (in front of the entire football world) because sadly, they cannot play in a passing side.

Coleman and Baines are not playing anywhere near their potential, that tells me all is not right on the training pitch. The defence is a shambles, and we certainly have no leaders further up the pitch. It all points to a player revolt, mirroring OFMÂ’s tenure at Man Utd.

I am a massive supporter of Martinez, and his views on how the game should be played. I really thought we were going to see us play even better than last season - thatÂ’s why this season is hurting so much.

My guess is that itÂ’s over for him - and the senior players want him gone so they can get back to playing to their strengths, and hiding behind long balls, and lots of effort.

Our teams is not suited to MartinezÂ’s tactics, and this is the problem. Our attacking players are one dimensional in general. What does Barkley do? He runs with the ball, and he shoots (Far too often). McGeady? he performs a trick, and then he shoots or crosses (With head down). Mirallas is brilliant, but he makes poor decisions with the ball, and often runs when he should pass. Lukaku? he is a target man, who is increasingly frustrated by the players behind him. Naismith is superb, but he is a second striker, and not a creative player. Eto is an extremely gifted footballer, but he is often being asked to play out of position, like Naismith and Barkley.

MartinezÂ’s tactics do not fail because the mentality of the players is wrong (there is no doubt that they fail often on big occasions, but that is not the issue here) but because the tactics do not suit the style of the players we have. A passing concentrated style requires passers and movers. It requires Silvas, Artetas, Coutinhos and Cazorlas. Our attacking four are set up for strength and power. The two DMÂ’s were employ are tacklers. Jags and Distin are traditional CBÂ’s, and our full backs are very gifted, but are being stifled by the mess in front of them.

We have been at our best this season when teams attack us with open football, aka Arsenal and Wolfsburg, because then we can pick holes and use the pace and power we have, which is used ineffectively at the moment because of slow build up play which denies our direct players the necessary space to operate. Martinez is playing with a style which would have suited a younger Pienaar, Arteta and Osman. When Osman returns he will perform better because this style suits him (As demonstrated earlier in the season).

We will never reach the heights that we can reach playing this style, because it does not suit our personnel. It might suit Stones, Oviedo and Osman, but it wonÂ’t suit Lukaku, Barkley, Mirallas, McGeady etc. Martinez will not need months but years to reconstitute this side, because it will require different players. I believe we need to give Martinez more time, and I feel that talk of relegation is silly, because we are too good for that, irrespective of our style at the moment. But we will have a crappy season, and the arrogant one dimensional comments of Martinez discussed here do not inspire confidence. We will have a poor season, and I expect that we will lose our best attacking player in Mirallas, and then face a far bleaker future because of it.

It is good to have beliefs and stick to them, but it is essential to see when those beliefs need amending for different circumstances. The rampant Real side of last season and this were so devastating because they mixed styles of play and player. They have fantastic passes in Isco, Kroos, James and Modric, direct runners in Bale and Ronaldo, and a very intelligent striker in Benzema. Marcelo is a superb attacking football as is Carvajal, whilst Arbeloa and Coentrao offer more defensive solidarity. Before them, the Bayern Munich treble winning side was devastating. They could pass a ball, but had pace and power, and like this Real Madrid side, used that pace and power. They, like this Real side, moved the ball quickly, and were direct when they needed to be. These sides should be our model, not a Barca team full of passers who have the tools to make a passing concentrated side work. Lukaku and Mirallas could be devastating when used in the right way. Lukaku scored 17 league goals at WBA, with many coming from the bench, because of a style which suited him. Mirallas is a brilliant goal scorer and dribbler. We need to use a style which suits these players - we need to give the ball quickly to our attackers, and let them exploit space. If we play slowly we will fail, because it will not suit our top striker, and we lack the required midfielders to play the intricate pass.

We are 12th with a much superior goal difference than the 8 teams below us, we are now 55/1 to be relegated. IÂ’m not saying we canÂ’t get relegated, itÂ’s just highly unlikely!

Am I pleased with our form? No; as far as the players not playing for the manager, theyÂ’re highly pampered and paid athletes/employees who play 1 or 2 times a week, I donÂ’t care if they agree/like the manager whatever, theyÂ’re playing for Everton and should bust a gut each game.
They would be okay in the armed forces: "Oh I donÂ’t like my commander, IÂ’m not fighting today."

WeÂ’re dropping down the League because not 1 of them is performing well consistently or at all and thereÂ’s also a good one-third of them way past their best.
I said earlier weÂ’ve scored 29 goals, nothing wrong there, itÂ’s the defenders who are letting us down, that and individual mistakes like Barkley made in the Newcastle game.

Martinez does need to be a bit more flexible, but itÂ’s the players that play the games.

Obviously this is media spin. It is his way of dealing with the media and not washing dirty laundry in public. I strongly doubt that it is what goes on behind the scenes. But one thing I have been crying out for is for him to drop the nice guy act because it seems to aggravate the fanbase and create pressure and therefore a discordant atmosphere.

I think the latest presser and his frank intentions about not changing his philosophy about style of play is a strong and gutsy response. It shows confidence and is more of an insight into his actual managerial style.

This season has been shit up to now in the league, there is no denying that. For me, this has been caused by the disruption to the strongest partnership of last season, that of McCarthy and Barry. This solid and dominant central partnership gave balance and confidence to the rest of the team, both offensively and defensively. These two have barely played together since October and the alternatives have not gelled. BarryÂ’s know-how, McCarthyÂ’s legwork, and their understanding has been hard to replace, the most promising being Barkley and Besic (although for different reasons).

Martinez is obviously desperate to restore this central partnership, as evidenced by his continual selection of Barry who seems to be struggling. Hopefully it wont be long before these two are both back to the form they showed last season, for RobertoÂ’s sake at least.

I know, Patrick and others have denied this is what Roberto is all about but so many of his outpourings indicate that he sets great stall by figures that reflect Â’possession statsÂ’ and wants to bask in their light as much as possible.

Of course, in recent years, Barcelona and Spain have been the styleÂ’s most notable exponents. They treasured the ball, cherished it and it rewarded them well. But two key aspects of that Â’philosophyÂ’ have to be considered. No Everton player would get into the Barcelona side and, even in Spain, the style has had to be adapted as teams have developed effective counter tactics.

Unless Martinez can quickly do likewise, he will have condemned both the teams supported by the Walling family to the Football League Championship !

He wants us to be this great footballing side and master his philosophy and it will take time with a team like ours as some of our players arenÂ’t great technically to execute it that well right now but it will take years of hard graft on the training ground and good player recruitment to get us to where he wants us to be. I still think heÂ’s the right man for the job. Last season was no fluke and in time weÂ’ll be back to that and even better, weÂ’ll look and even more assured side at what weÂ’re trying to do.

We just need to all stick together right now. The players have to start showing more for Martinez, the shirt and us fans and then in turn we all need to get behind the team and keep on showing weÂ’re there for them and weÂ’ll soon get out of this mess!

I never watched any of the Newcastle match, but in the games before this I have just watched a team very low on confidence because they got booed by their own fans whilst winning.

When confidence goes, life becomes very hard and I think we really need a break at the minute. That said, your post at #110, is very good.

Unless he thinks he should adapt, if they canÂ’t?

Not too many of us, I bet. No, he got the gig because he was handy, had won the Cup and HAD BEATEN EVERTON on the way !

So make a note of any lower end manager who turns us over - starting with Brucie tomorrow.

The problem with us is in lack of penetration in the final third compounded by Martinez trying to fit in too many similar players in and around the supporting striker role with those losing out in their best position pushed out to the wings where they are less effective. There may be a case for putting Kone and Lukaku up front together to see if they can form a partnership. Barry isnÂ’t performing this year and should be dropped in favour of Besic.

It could be argued that weÂ’re committing too many players forward to score, but this season we have had the defenders in place most of the time but they have defended like amateurs! Central defenders such as Jags and Distin have been the biggest culprits.

Everton have made fewer crosses than any other side this season (245)

Pathetic.

Like a lot of modern day managers, Martinez trots out meaningless stats to cover up poor results. He didnÂ’t do it so much last season in our winning spells.

IÂ’m not sure you have to be as good as Barcelona to keep the ball better and still be effective. What people forget about Barca was the quality of movement off the ball and how hard they worked to get it back. ThatÂ’s got nothing to do with tactics, thatÂ’s desire.

Your quote from Wenger is quite telling. If itÂ’s in context and still applicable, thatÂ’s a big concern.

Other than the appalling fitness issues, I still canÂ’t understand why last season we defended well, kept the ball well, created chances and scored lots of goals, but this season weÂ’re doing none of that.

Either Martinez will pull through this or we can look forward to some juicy stories and quotes in the near future.

One thing IÂ’d like to know from your Wigan connections, Phil, is whether there were any differences in the years Martinez escaped relegation to the year they dropped?

And it’s not just what happens at Everton. Other clubs adapt, change personnel and tactics – even have better luck with refs.

Perhaps the curse of the Europa has struck – who knows? But, whatever, each season is a new ballgame and history will reflect such – even our greatest side ever finished 14th the year after winning the league (and it got worse the following season!)

So donÂ’t give us Â’it was alright last yearÂ’. Focus on the here and now!

Paul, the fact that Martinez was at the World Cup shouldnÂ’t make a difference, he spotted Besic there so you could argue that his time was well spent. No, the problem was, and I realise IÂ’m repeating myself here, that the quality of opposition for pre-season, the fitness levels both then and now, and players being given too long to "recover" from the few games they played in Brazil all add up to our present predicament. I hate using the "manager speak" crap that companies spout nowadays but the saying "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail" has never been more apt.

This, along with MartinezÂ’s intransigence, his stubborn refusal to freshen up his style now other teams are wise to it, his not making the best of some fine players, and the astonishing lack of confidence that is apparent in our team, all point to our current position. I wouldnÂ’t have any confidence to get a win, at home, against any Premier League team right now.

Personally I feel its more to do with:
1. Howard: returning from the world cup as a hero to costing us points on regular basis.
2. Coleman: niggling injuries has hampered his form
3. CBÂ’s have been woeful!
4. Baines misses Pienaar
5. McCarthy fitness issues
6. Gibson proving he isnÂ’t available and never will be to give adequate cover when needed
7. McGeady is well below par, and Atsu hasnÂ’t stepped up to the plate
8. Mirallas has missed too many games
9. Injury to Barkley was a massive blow
10. LukakuÂ’s early season fitness issues
11. Injuries to every fringe player
12. Oviedo and Kone still not 100% match fit
13. Very poor refereeing decisions

In my opinion, the above list is more to do with our current predicament than RMÂ’s playing style!

Unlike your good self, the post on here didn’t actually make me physically sick, but I must admit several – especially yours and the fawning Paul Andrews – made me shake my head in despair and utter disbelief.

Where do you guys get off slagging the Evertonians Off?

I was amongst the thousands of Evertonians who spent an entire day travelling down to Southampton, not only did it cost them a fortune, most of them would have pissed their wives and their girlfriend off big time for fucking off right in the run up to the holiday.

What Martinez served up with his half-witted tactics did not fall short of a savage kick in the bollocks for every single one of them. The shite we witnessed was the ultimate insult... at least I thought it was.

A week or so later, these loyal-to-the-bone supporters were dealt another kick in the bollocks from Martinez when they travelled up to Newcastle (a thousand miles in two games), only to witness an equally inept performance and once again be subject to the managerÂ’s idiotic excuses as they travelled home. It was the ultimate insult... at least I thought it was.

Smell the coffee... We haven’t just gone on a bad run – we are stinking grounds out up and down the country. The Goodison faithful have had their patience stretched to the limit, all season.

When I read MartinezÂ’s latest statement I thought I was seeing things. Not a hint of an apology, just the latest round of inane babble. It was the ultimate insult... at least I thought it was.

I have not called for this manager to be removed – he got us into this shit and it’s up to him to get us out – but my toes have curled when I have read some of the piss-weak excuses offered by the acolytes and the sycophants desperately trying to blame everything on anybody other than their hero... but to now point the finger at loyal Evertonians???

To compare us to the spoilt brats at The Emirates... or deluded Kopites... now that IS the ultimate insult

Do you realise how much these people spend? How much they sacrifice? How much disappointment the have to endure? I have never personally booed in my life, but I hope every single Evertonian at Hull letÂ’s Martinez have it with both barrels for this latest round of utter garbage

ThereÂ’s only 6 teams scored more than us and 4 of them by not much.

So my point, which youÂ’ve danced round is that tippy tappy doesnÂ’t appear to have affected our ability to score!

Surely, any manager worth his salt has to be prepared to adapt his methodology/style if the current strategy is repeatedly failing to get the best out of his squad? These players have had nothing but praise and superlatives showered upon them since Martinez first set foot through the door.

Initially, it was a refreshing change and there was sound reasoning behind it. For years this group of players plied their trade under a man who made them believe they were plucky underdogs capable of getting a few good digs in from time to time but lacking the extra class needed to become a true contender. Martinez came in and made it clear he thought Everton should rightfully be fighting it out for a place in the top four and the squad of players currently at the club had a realistic chance of doing exactly that. It was all about shedding an inherent inferiority complex.

However, to persist with such praise when the players in question have singularly failed to put in shifts anywhere near deserving of such plaudits, can only lead to a gradual creeping in of lowered standards or, even worse, misplaced delusions of grandeur.

He doesnÂ’t have to do a complete 180 and come out and slate individuals, but he certainly can make it clear that current performances and results have fallen far short of what Evertonians have become accustomed to and, as such, improvement is needed right across the board. Calling for renewed effort, focus and fight during a rough patch is a long way from ripping into someone or pointing the finger.

He was partway there when he recently decried results and sloppy defending, but to then insist that the performances as a whole have warranted more and have been pleasing, was not only myopic but also insincere on a scale not seen since Ian Krankie stooped down at the altar and whispered to his soon to be wife Â’Wee JimmyÂ’ that he was the most beautiful bride in the world.

IÂ’d also love to know who Roberto is referring to when he mentions the steadying influence of Â’the senior headsÂ’ who will step up to take responsibility with their Â’leadershipÂ’ qualities and air of Â’calmnessÂ’? Distin? Howard? Jagielka? Osman? Pienaar? All proven panic merchants when put under any real pressure. Repeated fuck upÂ’s by the first three are a big part of the reason why things started heading downhill so rapidly in the first place.

Now theyÂ’re supposed to be viewed as an inspiration to others? The only worse example of how to keep your head screwed on during a time of crisis would be that cybernetic nonce out of Star Wars who got his noggin whacked on back-to-front by a whiny bollocks spouting Wookie with a big fucking spanner.

I seriously hope so because personally I donÂ’t give a fuck who manages Everton from the Queen to Pep Guardiola; managers come and go but we live our lives supporting this wonderful football team.

What RM may view as self-portraying football with a big RM stamp of quality, which he loves the media to see, brings many unknown changes to the lives of every Evertonian. Good or bad we take the shite or wear the smiles accordingly.

RM can fuck off to a new club whenever he wants – we are here forever.

ItÂ’s as if going 4-4-2 with a big man knocking it down to the little man would solve everything.

Neither will it change our injury list/record. Every single player except for Besic and McGeady have been injured. Some have suffered several setbacks!!

While IÂ’m at it, Happy New Year to all fellow blues and letÂ’s hope better days are around the corner!

Sure, we may be the PremÂ’s seventh highest scorers but only QPR have conceded more than our 31 goals. Is attack the managerÂ’s only concern/responsibility these days, then?

In his time at Wigan, his teams conceded an average of 69 goals per season - more than enough to see most teams relegated and we are track for a similar total here !

Of course, we have lost only 8 of those 19 games so far and 16 defeats by seasonÂ’s end would be an unusually low number for relegation victims. And I know that most teams have avoided the drop with 42 points but - and itÂ’s a big BUT - all this supposes we can replicate our first half performance.

How we are performing at present tells me thatÂ’s a big ask !

That sentence says it all for me. Even the Â’COYBÂ’ deluded happy clappers should be woken from their slumber at that soundbite.

All top managers build their teams from a strong defence. Yet this bloke thinks he can do it a different way?

IÂ’ve sat through halves this season and not seen a single shot on goal. Regardless of whether your pro or anti Martinez or for or against Â’possessionÂ’ football you have to be concerned at his inability to see the reality of our performances this term.

My view is that Martinez has 2-3 games to produce a win - other wise itÂ’s adios!

EvertonÂ’s lack of passing game won them nothing under Moyes, because players were quite happy to hoof the ball forward (that allowed the opposition to take control of the ball) rather than develop their passing skills, when under pressure from opposing forwards.

DoesnÂ’t really matter, except when you start saying that we have already lost tomorrow????? If you donÂ’t like Martinez, thatÂ’s fine, but to accept defeat against Hull City before a ball has been kicked really does tell me that you have been living in Wigan for way too long.

IÂ’m too long in the tooth to go tomorrow, but I might change my mind around midnight, because never fucking mind Martinez, My Team Everton, need people to get behind them right now!

Our defenders, particularly Distin and Jags, are not comfortable with the ball. Anyone can see that and to watch them clumsily passing sideways each game until opposition pressure sees them pass back to Howard who then hoofs it forward is little short of embarrassing. It is also the easiest style to combat.

The only central defenders comfortable with the ball at their feet are Alcaraz and Stones. Better defenders might see Howard get less criticism on here.

As for Moyes, we played some excellent football under him in his last two seasons.

With fire power we have in Mirallas, Naismith, Kone, Lukaku, Eto’o, & Barkley we should be blowing teams away playing down the channels and one- and two-touch play and flinging balls into the box. Our current tactics do not suit any of our players — the quicker Martinez identifies this, the better!

When Bobby came in, he was in a greater position than any incoming Everton manager for more years than I care to mention due to the fact that Moyes left for Manure and we were in a position of strength, ie, a decent squad and on a better financial footing than for many years. I never wanted him in the first place and couldnÂ’t understand why we would appoint a manager that had just got a team relegated but, as a loyal Evertonian, he would get my support.

The first thing that registered doubts were in my opinion lazy signings from a certain club: Robles, Alcaraz, Kone and McCarthy; the loan signings of Barry and Lukaku on deadline day... plus Deulofeu provided a timely boost. When the season started, the style of play was at times frustrating yet results and performances picked up but the rot set in towards the end of the season. The Shite hit us for four, as did Arsenal, and defeats latterly against Crystal Palace, Southampton and Man City.

We ended with record points for the season, in my opinion due to a change of style, which caught teams by surprise; key players in form, not too many injuries, and a fair amount of Lady Luck, ie, we played Swansea, Cardiff and Villa all at home in a 3 week period and got 9 points when we could have lost all 3 on balance of play.

Fast forward to this pre-season and our Bobby is at the World Cup for ESPN, I believe... hence began our problems of a shambolic pre-season which I believe is a big part of our poor season thus far. He said we need 6 or 7 players for this season; we added Besic and Galloway plus signed Barry on a 3-year contract – far too long and spent 㿈 Million on a forward who canÂ’t control a ball, canÂ’t head a ball, and canÂ’t pass it 5 yards... admittedly he had a good season but to waste the bulk of our budget on him to me was gross misjudgement. And donÂ’t give me this bull heÂ’s only young and will get better he ainÂ’t good enough but, having said that, we donÂ’t exactly play to his strengths.

So my summary is that a better preseason should have been organised and, from a position of strength from last season, I was expecting 4 or 5 quality signings to improve what was already a decent squad – more down to Moyes than Bobby, in my opinion, and I wasn’t his biggest fan.

To be a good manager you have to have a ruthless streak so a culling of the older players should also have been done, ie, Hibbert, Osman, Distin, & Pienaar... thanks for your years of good service but time to move on and make room for a more youthful calibre of player – not given extended contracts along with Eto’o and Barry which has made us the oldest squad in the Premier League. hence the lacklustre performances we have seen this season.

Back to tomorrow where, in my opinion, we will beat Hull. To all, have a good night and hopefully things will improve next year.

I also want to make the point that a lot of our fans are criticizing Roberto for the age of the squad and giving senior players long contracts. Some think this is an implication of not giving youth a chance.

For me this is not a worrying trend and it just outlines what James is talking about in terms of different approaches.

Moyes always had a group of 14 or 15 players he trusted and believed the best way of success for the club was to have a small squad but develop a collective team spirit that none of the big clubs could have. This would allow us to compete.

Martinez takes a different approach and feels that our system and ability to prevent better squads by starving them of the ball is his way of challenging. He feels we need a squad of 22 to realistically compete over the whole season.

It is my opinion and his selection proves that Hibbert, Osman and Alcaraz will not be first choices and are in the squad to come in and help the team when needed.

If you look at how many young players he has brought into the team including Lukaku, McCarthy, Dellboy, Atsu, Barkley, Stones, Browning, Besic, Robles and Garbutt in only 18 months and has a number of youngsters bought for the future then its clear youth are paramount to his project.

We havenÂ’t got the money to have a squad like Man CityÂ’s and Martinez wants to use the experience of our senior players mixed with the energy of our younger players until we can produce a 22-man squad of real quality over the next 3 or 4 years. IÂ’m sure players like Distin and Pienaar will be gone at the end of the season and each year one or two will be phased out when others of superior quality emerge.

I was really impressed by his press conference yesterday and I hope the players are as impressive tomorrow.

Very well put. Sums up what most match going Evertomians feeL right now!

Some honest recognition of the reality of our situation by Martinez would engender some degree of hope which the fantasy comments he making at present certainly donÂ’t!

No they donÂ’t. They all have very good players and stick to a certain system and are very good at what they set out to do from game to game and thatÂ’s exactly what Martinez is trying to implicate at us!

Difference is we donÂ’t have the quality or finances to be able to achieve as quicker results or standards as these mentioned clubs.

Going back to the phrase Martinez uses in the article, where he says he doesnÂ’t work on a good defensive record to win things, do people seriously think Guardiaola does then at Bayern? Did he do the same at Barca? Highly unlikely. What he did was make em so good and comfortable on the ball, and so eager and hungry to get it back when theyÂ’d lost it, that it made it so hard for teams to actually get at em and score goals or beat em! Yes, his great Barca side did concede goals, as does his Bayern team but he made them so good with the ball and so persistent off it that teams just couldnÂ’t live with them and more often tan not, couldnÂ’t beat em, and I not for one minute saying Martinez is going to get us that way but in terms of philosophy and style, thatÂ’s the route heÂ’s taking, especially with ball retention. IÂ’d like him to have us closing down like packs of wolves but IÂ’m yet to see that but he wants us to be so good on the ball that weÂ’ll dominate games, create chances and in turn, keep the opposition at bay for large parts of the game which will lessen the chance of goals against. ThatÂ’s his thinking in all this I believe.

But with our limited finances and a lack of quality in technical, ability it will take us a number of years to master what heÂ’s trying to do at Everton. Look at Swansea, itÂ’s about 7, 8 or 9 years ago since Martinez started out his revolution there and to this day there not the finished article but they are a side whoÂ’s more efficient and comfortable on the ball than we are and year by year, adding more quality to there ranks, they are getting better and IÂ’d like to think weÂ’ll follow suit but at a quicker pace and be better than they are!

DonÂ’t forget aswell, are league is a different kettle of fish compared to the likes of La Liga, the Bundesliga and Seria A, not all teams try and have a go and play and do sit back in numbers and get in your face and donÂ’t give up space easily which makes the game were trying to play much harder to crack.

But in time, after a few transfer windows of getting his types of players in, IÂ’m sure Martinez will suss it out with us. Last season was a little insight of how things can be for us in the future!

Best wishes to all on here and letÂ’s hope we have a 2015 that brings us something to cheer about. Maybe a mid table finish with some silverware.

Some good posts on both sides of the fence here but have to admit that after 46 years of supporting Everton I am feeling very uneasy about our current situation. We seem to be that club thatÂ’s dropping like a stone while being told that weÂ’re too good to go down. Believe me on current form weÂ’re not. IÂ’m going to Hull tomorrow but I expect to be watching through my fingers...

In my first season, 1970-71, the cushions regularly rained on our Champions in a dismal season. I asked my Dad why they were throwing cushions and one bloke just shouted Â’Because theyÂ’re the Champions and theyÂ’re playing like fucking amateurs!Â’

Since then, weÂ’ve had a healthy equal mix of fervent support and strong criticism, which to me is part and parcel of being an Evertonian.

ItÂ’s easy up here in the Highlands watching on the internet, I can go for a piss, drink, or switch off when I want to in a warm room. Only when I managed to get to the Hull game did I remember the cost, time and effort involved in watching a dreary game. Still loved it though!

The paying critics have every right to their opinion.

In his defence lots of us saw it coming once we were in the Europa League. Injuries meant we couldnÂ’t freshen things up as weÂ’d like. Turn a couple of Sunday losses to wins after our Europe League games and things wouldnÂ’t look quite as bad.

You need to change something quick, Roberto, before itÂ’s too late. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I really cannot see us going on a winning run like last season. Can anyone on here tell me how we are going to get out of this current slump? IÂ’d be shocked if we won our next two games, thatÂ’s how far weÂ’ve fallen.

So, to ask them to continue playing this way, no matter what the circumstances, will only lead to one outcome... the manager will lose his job.

IÂ’m behind Roberto. I wanted him as manager a year in front of when he was named when it seemed Moyes may be on the way out.

He definitely is not Jesus Christ and has made many questionable decisions, errors, substitutions, et al; but...

I appreciate and admire his footballing philosophies. He deserves more time as many have said before - trying to change the Club from top to bottom with its approach, ethos, etc.

This is a difficult time to be sure. Roberto will play the game his way come hell or high water it is apparent. I relish this effort. If it works Everton - a team playing with pennies comparatively to the big boys - will be the envy of football fans across the globe. It reminds me of that club in Germany under Klopp who hit the heights and have also experienced severe valleys. There are heights we can reach with this manager. We have to ride out the lows and get behind the manager.

The road to heaven isnÂ’t rosy and paved with gold. There are challenges, pitfalls, valleys, etc. on the way.

Take your mind back to last year. SO beautiful at times. Such a joy to watch Everton play fantastic football. I truly believe Roberto can get us back there.

Just give the guy your support and three years. If RobertoÂ’s got it wrong then we will know, and the inevitable change will occur for the good of the Club.

Based upon that feeling we had last year, the uplifting style of play and the chase for 4th, donÂ’t we at least owe it to OURSELVES and no one else to let the man who brought us 72 points and smiles on our faces the time to implement fully his philosophy?

ItÂ’s not going to be easy, but the golden goose on the other side of the rainbow makes me want to see this through.

IÂ’m gonna go yell at someone now as I feel way too "fluffy".

1) Chelsea, Man City and Southampton pass the ball beautifully, but they also mix it with John Terry-like hoofs, Joe Hart smashing it upfield etc - itÂ’s called flexibility.

2) Ross Barkley had one of his best games against QPR (albeit, they have the only 100% away losses in the top 7 English leagues) in his best position, a centre-mid position. The next two games against Southampton and Stoke, he was played out of position out wide; then Martinez drops him for the Newcastle game. Classic mismanagement!

3) Martinez is patronising and insulting to us, the fans; he continues to talk drivel, after performances that have been disjointed. I honestly think he hasnÂ’t got a clue what heÂ’s doing. As an Evertonian, I want us to win tomorrow, but deep down know weÂ’re going to lose, mainly because of RobertoÂ’s fantasy management!

The manager has looked to the senior players as his power base but has done so in a servile way and now it looks as though at least some of them are turning on him. He needs to become more ruthless and independent if he is going to survive.

THINK REALISTICALLY PEOPLE!

The obvious conclusion is we are conceding far too many goals this season with its fair to say with the same players.
The two reasons for me are that our 2 regular centre backs have been total rubbish, closely followed by Coleman and Baines in their defensive duties and also teams have learned that the best way to beat us is to hit us on the break once we have lost the ball in attack.
Add to that our aged players are another year older and some have gone past their sell by date.

Also which hardly gets a mention, little old Everton are getting screwed each week by refs, we should have been playing against 10 men in the last 2 games, oh and a very dodgy penalty to boot, potentially 6pts up the chute there.
Chelsea get an apology because the ref gave a wrong decision, what do we get Cisse banned for 3 games, guess who they play in next 2 League games, Burnley and Leicester ! HeÂ’ll be back in the team when they play Chelsea, thatÂ’s rubbing salt into the wound not justice.

Lets not think that this game tomorrow is going to be easy either, their crowd will be baying for blood, their players are going to be right up for it and were away so a good chance another homer ref will give us nothing!
Hull got beat last week but they missed lots of easy chances, guess what!

Happy 2015 to all. A trophy year??

IsnÂ’t Martinez failing also ?

Mr Martinez is now in his 8th season as a manager and unless you want to say winning the F.A.cup in the same season as being relegated was successful and I donÂ’t, he has only produced 2 successful seasons -1 getting Swansea promoted into thr premiership and last season at Everton.

Getting relegated was the reason that winning the F.A.cup was not what I will call successful as yes it is a great day out if you win but if you get relegated unless you are able to gain promotion the following season with the help of the parachute payments you will be facing years of financial ruin.

So to the people saying that we must give him a chance to keep on with his playing style or philosophy realise that (a) over the past 8 seasons it has only been successful twice 1 in the championship and 1 in the premier .(B) As it it is not proving successful with the present squad of players please remember that Everton do not have the finances to overhaul the majority of the squad to bring in the type of players he wants without selling some of our better younger players as for the the older players we need to change we wiil not get a lot for them.

We need to bring in someone to work on our defensive problems before they become too severe. We also need to work on our corners. They are free attempts on goal which would help build confidence in our play. Every little aspect helps, yet Bobby does not want to tackle these issues. Strange philosophy he is perpetuating, when it fails to utilise the basic fabric of the game.

We all got carried away with what happened last season, but if we are all honest the cracks were starting to show towards the end of last season, never mind this. The outcome of it is we made Bobby out as though he was the new Messiah. I hope to God Bobby and the team can turn this around as nobody is getting any enjoyment out of having to critisize the team, but if this rubbish keeps happening like it has for sometime now, at what point do you say enough is enough? Or more worrying will we have enough time to put it right. I was there for the Wimbledon game and the Coventry and it was two of the worst days of supporting my beloved club ( even though we dodged relegation there was nothing to celebrate in my opinion) I have ever had to go through.

If I was a real mad optimist IÂ’d say heÂ’s had three successful relegation battles and one failure.

I donÂ’t think heÂ’ll need to use this experience but it would be good to get some insight.

Its no use kidding ourselves we are in the 2nd Div where buying players for big bucks are concerned, how the hell can expect our managers to win things.
Hope yes, expect no.

I am a fan of Everton but alas also a fan of football and entertainment. I canÂ’t even clap the opposition scoring as I can see the goal coming like a joke from miranda from miles away.

As I said earlier, it is not just what Everton do that will determine our fate.

Yes we have young players but they are injured like Stones and McCarthy. Last year was the best I have felt as a blue since I can remember. Yes itÂ’s a rough ride at the moment but do any of us really beleive we will go down? Really? I donÂ’t! I think we should give him the benifit of the doubt and see where we are next season?

No improvement and still middle table then yes, get rid. We have the team we just need to give the new manager some time to take us where we can go. Might be a bit too optimistic because itÂ’s new year but come on blues either way stick with the team. COYB

How about this quote from D Whelan the chairman of Wigan. When I announced that Martinez had been given permission to speak to Everton about their vacant managerial position, I gave it, as Martinez did not feel he was the man to lead Wigan back to the premiership.

HeÂ’s no mug is Roberto. He realised the only way is down for Wigan, not even David Copperfield, Dynamo and David Blaine together can save Wigan from oblivion.

If those players were good for Everton how or why were they relegated? DonÂ’t suppose it was caused by the stupidity of their and now our manager.

LetÂ’s hope we do the job ourselves. I still see a mid-table finish. I hope a cup comes with it.

Happy New Year to all Blues and see you in 2015.

Firstly he dropped Sylvan and the first time he had 4 centre backs available he played Stones and Jags while Distin didnÂ’t make the bench. This guy has cost us so many points but Roberto has no option but to play him. Its clear Roberto knows heÂ’s finished.

He also gave Browning 2 appearances at full back and he did well but if you have seen his performances at centre back for the 21Â’s you would see why he hasnÂ’t blooded him there in the 1st team.

Tony I am also getting sick of this poor Barkley scenario. This guy never got a kick under Moyes. Roberto not only blooded him but made him central to the team and gave him freedom in the hole to wreck havoc. He was tried for a few games wide this year when Mirallas was injured so the team needed him but not only was he poor he didnÂ’t even lift a leg. Roberto then played him in the position he has played most of his career and the lad was still shocking. He had 1 exciting game at home to the worst away team in the league and suddenly we are told that this is his best position. If anyone watched that game and seen how much Besic had to work to cover him and had we played a better side his defensive frailties would have been magnified as at Southampton.

Then there is this argument that he has messed about Besic. No even the player had said he wasnÂ’t up to the speed of the prem and Martinez has adopted the same policy to that of Dellboy where he didnÂ’t start challenging until December. Do you not remember some of Besic, early cameos? He was very bad. I have never rated Barry as a midfielder but last season he was immense and his partnership with McCarthy was central to our success. I agree that over the last month Besic is really pushing for a place but I guarantee not one other manager in the league would have dropped Barry for Besic in the first few months of this season for the above reasons.

I donÂ’t feel he lacks the ruthlessness to play the youngsters but its only down to injuries that some of them are able to keep their place. He dealt with Distin and Oviedo when he didnÂ’t like what he was seeing.

Some good debate on this thread but definitely worst post is that of Bill. It really annoys me when Wigan had the lowest wage bill and budget in the country and people say he was a failure. I see his successors are doing brilliantly.

He worked wonders there in keeping them up as Shaun Moloney for example only came as he wanted to play in the prem as Burnley who were in the relegation position in the championship had offered him better terms to join them. This is the hand that Roberto was dealt and not only that the DW pitch was awful so their home record was poor and they done better away from home on the better surfaces.

This cracks me up as its media driven poor information. I remember when Jol left Spurs in 6th and Ramos had a tough 1st 2 months because he couldnÂ’t adapt to the prem and Redknapp took them from 2nd bottom to about 8th in the league. He was heralded as some sort of messiah yet he took a team that finishes 6th the previous year to similar form to that of Jol. IÂ’m not saying he didnÂ’t do well but he didnÂ’t exactly take over Burnley and make them finish 6th.

Its the same on here with idiots wanting Pulis. This manager is great for keeping teams in the division but the amount of money he spent at Stoke on crap after crap to fit his style of play. He spent ٦ million on Palacios who played about 3 games for him and his transfer budget was much greater than ours every year with a similar or slightly reduced wage bill. Stoke never finished in the top half despite his resources and when the money dried up he left yet Hughes who was hasnÂ’t the same kudos has got them higher despite having his kitty severely restricted.

Some people need to wise up and realise that Swansea are where they are thanks to Roberto and Wigan achieved a feat that very few clubs with those resources will ever do again under his leadership.

If he was in charge of a rich club he would have probably have been buying more up market.

We can all make up spin on quotes to suit our agendas but I will leave that to you.

By refusing to stand by Wigan it shows that the man is to stubborn to admit to failure and that is what a lot of people are saying about him now,refusing to admit that at the moment his style is not working and seems to stubborn to change.

Martinez will one day piss off - hopefully sooner rather than later - and not give us a second thought. He deserves nothing until he treats us supporters with respects and stops talking shite.

"Martinez masterminded his sideÂ’s survival in 2012 by switching from their most common formation of 4-3-3 to a highly unorthodox 3-4-3 for the final third of the season. It worked.

Â’Â’MarinezÂ’s strategy relied on highly accurate long-range shooting, firing from distance - allowing his team to recover their defensive shape more easily - and persistence. He did not place any emphasis on corners - Wigan scored just one goal from a corner in the entire season - because it meant allowing his troops out of hiding and into open sight, leaving them vulnerable. Martinez was playing guerrilla football.

"He had his team lie in wait for their opponents and then punished them on the counter attack.

HIS TEAM WAS ADAPTABLE AND UNPREDICTABLE. With his neat jumpers and kind smile, Martinez looks a decent man. Underneath that veneer, though, beats the heart and mind of a natural insurgent shortly to be headquartered at Goodison Park."

So there you have it, he CAN be adaptable, after all. New hope, indeed.

Then we are obviously not very good at what we are doing at the moment.

I think it was Einstein who defined insanity as "repeatedly doing the same things and expecting different results"

sedit qui timuit ne non succederet.

Of course this has little to do with the situation here, but a useful reminder that he did a bit more than lie down and get relegated. Time for some of that character to come out here methinks.

But bloody hell some comments on here would think the guy doesnÂ’t have a brain. HeÂ’s a clever man who is up against it at present, clearly done internal unrest and also externally being criticised . He needs to show he is top dog.

I hate and donÂ’t understand how we donÂ’t press or pass / cross into the box currently from wide positions.

But I donÂ’t see Martinez as a fool . I didnÂ’t like any of our previous managers from 90s and including Moyes even when we got 4th. However IÂ’m the opposite with Martinez. I think heÂ’s class and whilst the team is infuriating and terrible at present I have every faith in the man at the helm and that he will wventuly turn us into a great team

Rarely do we see players managing a game in-play themselves. The non-communication between our current crop leaves me with little faith for the future. Its not like you can just transplant this "leader" mentality overnight.

Whatever you think of Martinez and the players we have, they are part of our club and they need proper support.

As soon as we went a goal down, at Southampton I think, someone was giving Barkley tons of shit, expecting him to win the game single-handedly and basically slagging him off.

I remember a few seasons ago, when we were away to Crystal Palace. Palace were bottom of the league, yet the stadium was bouncing and the crowd were right behind their team. ThatÂ’s what our team needs now.

We have players like Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Coleman, Lukaku, McCarthy, Besic who are all relative youngsters. Because they are such good players people forget how inexperienced they are.

One thing is for certain, theyÂ’re not going to win games with the fans calling them useless wankers every week.

All the top teams have this desire to win the battle, to play their own game. Do we have the players to take up the style being implemented? The team has a number of players in their late twenties and thirties. Such a radical change of style in a short period of time might be the problem. Last season we added goals and defensive cover and style from the previous regime. This season the manager is implementing his style without the full personal as yet.

As fans we must decide to give the manager and players our support in the changes being implemented. Perhaps as a fan I thought this season would lead to better things in the league but the changes are taking longer. The chairman must back the manager with funds to bring players to suit his style. The squad was always going to need an overhaul of younger players.

At present the manager is not going to change is style and he is willing to risk his job for that. It's over to the players now!

2 wins in the last 10 league games
5 wins in 19 league games this season.
7 wins in the last 24 league games

The above number of wins tells us all that Martinez's tactics aren't working. His answer, repeating the same slow, turgid and rigid formation game after game with the same lack of success. Amazingly, people come on here and defend him.

So Mr Martinez was given the opportunity to go to Celtic that would have given him a substantial transfer budget plus a gauranteed place in the championship league so why as you say did he go to Wigan who had the lowest wage bill and budget .Do you think that he persuaded D.Whelan to let him try his philosophy in the premier to see how successful it would be ?

As strange as it may seem to some people on here I have never said that Martinez should be fired only that he should realize at this time his style was not working and he should stop being so stubborn to change. I also was of the opinion that he should look at possibly an Italian defensive coach to help intergrate a strong defensive style within his philosophy. Goals get you points but defence wins you games. Also ever since he was hired every oppurtunity I get I state that Everton needed and still need a quality creative midfielder.

Did Moyes, Pulis, McClaren relegate their teams? Sorry my memory fails me so except DM, IÂ’m not sure of the other two. If they didnÂ’t, then the shout of their names arenÂ’t ridiculous.

RM did win a cup but he also relegated them. Having said this, IÂ’m not sure if I want any of them.

I know plenty on here never wanted Martinez purely because he got Wigan relegated. Given the budgets he had to work with some would argue he did well to keep them up there for the two seasons prior.

People need to realise that as a club we're paupers in a rich league, thanks to our ownerships unwillingness or inability to directly invest or sell to someone with the means to. (Indirect investment is never going to happen whether you're looking 24/7 or not).

Therefore I can see why Martinez appealed to our Chairman. I'm disappointed with how things have transpired, and thanks to his increasingly bizarre utterances, no longer care whether Martinez stays or goes, as long as a decision either way happens soon.

But we as fans also need to be realistic. We're not going to attract a big name European manager - those who have or are close to testing themselves in the CL will want a club that fits their ambition - and we're not that. Sadly a McLaren or Pulis-esque manager is about our level.

Given our form, the recent Christmas bunched games were not good – and yes, I realise that's a massive understatement. It's sad but unfortunately not unexpected to see people ridiculing Roberto's comments. I still look back on my hopes and expectations at the beginning of the season – the Europa League would make a dent on our league position, but it would be great to give that and another cup a real go. I still feel that.

I haven't suddenly become an erratic RS fan who's celebrating "winning" the league one week to calling for their managers head the next. Yes, we need to not be kicking the ball out if one of their players catches one in the nuts, only to be repaid by (Coleman vs Newcastle) being elbowed in the face. But Pullis/Moyes-style managers – great let's nick a few 1-0s on the back foot, get shot of Barkley, Stones & Besic as well as the flair players and sign as many Dunne-like donkeys. We can then indefinitely span 6-14th in the league, simply bemoaning the lack of investment which would undoubtedly change our fortunes because Moyes only needs a couple more jigsaw pieces to build a makeshift gun.

Personally I'd rather give our "phenomenal" young manager more time – I think he'll turn it around.

BK took a gamble on Moyes and it paid off, he rolled the dice with Martinez hoping lightning would strike twice but with style and sadly it looks like it's failed.

I never thought (and I'm not advocating this) I'd say Pulis but one things for sure, he'd keep us up. The alternative is rolling the dice again on someone like Eddie Howe with Alan Irvine as assistant.

BK has to act decisively though, I can't remember seeing a team fall apart as visibly as we have over the past few weeks. Tuesday night is going to be a horror show.

I guess anything can happen in a game of football but faith can only be pushed so far and every string of patience has an end. I think I'm pretty near the end of mine.

When people were calling for Moyes's head, I felt I could still see lots of good things in our football. We weren't outplayed and outfought that often. The same cannot be said now. We have been turned over very comfortably by four teams we would expect to be above in the league and that's worrying in the extreme.

I hope the corner is turned but if it isn't quite soon then action must be taken. There's not a plethora of clearly better alternatives around but sometimes a fresh approach is needed and Roberto seems unwilling or unable to provide that himself.

At the moment we're like a concert pianist who plays all the wrong notes but is wearing a lovely suit.

I see the turn around coming from our players. We need to get out cutting edge back - and that's easily said, obviously. We need someone who can push Howard when he starts faltering or, like now, is injured.

We have had some bad injuries, ans players are coming back. Morale is low, but a couple of good results and that changes.

Of course instead I could just chose to believe that Pulis/Hughes/Reid/Warnock/Rednapp/Royal will magic the world better and we'll probably win the league - but definitely not face relegation.

Martinez has a lot of surgery to do. He has the foundations to rebuild. If we want to be successful, we need to play like Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd. We are too open and need to adapt to play a stylish game that does not threaten our position in the Premier League.

Sadly, this is no longer the case. Today's players don't even seem fit. Passing the ball nicely in midfield counts for nothing if you can't attack and defend effectively. We had 60% possession against Chelsea so does Martinez think that was a good performance?