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Martinez resolute over playing style

by | 31/12/2014  Comments (239)  jump

Roberto Martinez insists that he will not deviate from his footballing philosophy in the face of Everton's poor run of recent form, arguing that to change the team's style of play would be counter-productive.

The Blues go into the New Year's Day clash with Hull, a game that the manager describes as a "huge", having won just one of their last seven and lost their last three to leave them just five points off the bottom of the table at the halfway stage of the season.

Martinez is under mounting pressure as a campaign that held such promise at its outset has faltered but he remains committed to the possession-based football that served him so well in his first season in charge.

You don't win games by changing the style. You win games by being very good at what you do, the manager told the media. Changing only brings doubts. I've been in this situation too many times.

"Maybe when I was a young manager starting out, you would start thinking about it after a run like this but it is very clear — in football you need to be outstanding at what you do. It's not good enough to be average.

Even for the short-term, [changing] is not going to give you success in the long-term. Are we going to concede goals? Of course we are. Are we going to lose games? Of course we are. But it's important we know the way we want to play and that is never, ever going to be changed.

Martinez was defensive about criticism of his team in the wake of the 3-2 defeat at Newcastle on Sunday, however, arguing that to base opinion on the last few games rather than the last 18 months creates the wrong impression.

There are many Evertonians who have grown progressively uneasy about the team's form over the course of the first 19 games in the Premier League this season, though, and are concerned that the management is not responding to the fact that opposition managers are successfully stifling Everton's attacking enterprise.

I respect that people's opinions and pundits' opinion are part of football," Martinez continues. "I will allow the results to speak for themselves. I admire it when a critic comes out after a positive result and gives negative criticism, not the other way around, because not everything is good when you win and not everything is bad when you lose. There is more to it.

Our style was very successful last season, giving us the biggest points tally in the Premier League in the history of our football club. I'm very much aware of the needs of the British game. I have been here long enough and I'm not someone who works in percentages. I don't work on having a good defensive record to win things.

We work on other aspects and I like to have the talent that wins football games and to try and build something that will allow the football club to compete against sides that have spent a huge amount of money.

"When you concede the kind of cheap goals we conceded against Southampton and Newcastle then you are going to get those comments. But the pundits are only assessing those two games — they haven't got the deep information or focus from watching that team over 18 months. That's part of the manager's job.

The Catalan will again be without Tim Howard on Thursday after the American was ruled out for up to six weeks with a torn calf muscle and he may also be missing captain Phil Jagielka whose ankle will be assessed alongside that of John Stones before he names his side to face Hull.

His comments to the Liverpool Echo centred more around the loss of those experienced heads on the field and the need for the players to stay positive in their approach.

We need to find solutions with the players who are fit and available to come in and show what they can do, Martinez explained.

When you have the players with the mentality and leadership we have missing from the dressing room, it's going to have an effect, especially in these moments.

When you have a positive momentum and everything is working it's quite easy to come into the side. But at times like this you need the senior heads, the older players to be around. It's passing on that calmness and advice.

"So we need to learn and make sure the players involved now earn the responsibility and leadership the guys who are injured have. I still feel the squad we have is capable of coping with injuries and suspensions, he said. We need to get the real enjoyment of playing again.

I don't think we've been enjoying our football in the league as a team. The way we want to be positive, control the ball, and break sides down, you need to enjoy it.

When you become a little bit negative you attract other aspects not to go your way."

Quotes sourced from The Guardian


Reader Comments (239)

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James Flynn
1 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:02:21
Well, since he was signed, I supported him because he was the manger of the Club I support, so... supported him.

But when his name first came to the fore, I called him a pimp. Several times.

Sorry to say, I was right.

Already know heÂ’ll be hired as an "expert" by whatever cable company has soccer in America. Right along side Alexi Lalas.

James Watts
4 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:17:07
Excellent news. I think Bobby is spot on. We all know itÂ’s just the last two games that have been the problem and not the last 8-9 months ... *face palm*

And probably his best quote yet "..I donÂ’t work on having a good defensive record to win things..".

He really doesnÂ’t do himself any favours does he?!

Andy Crooks
5 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:20:45
Wow, relegation seeps from every cretinous utterance. Our manager is a fool.
John Aldridge
6 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:23:26
Championship here we come - particularly of the Al Habsi rumour is true. Only a cretin would look at what is happening and come to the conclusion nothing will be changed. Roberto, go now, for the sake of our club.
Kieran Riding
7 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:24:27
*Puts fingers in ears*

La la la la..

Steve Jones
9 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:20:27
I trust that he realises some tactical changes are needed, just look at the second goal v Newcastle when McGeady gave it away, we were hemmed in from a corner with no outlet. If we play our way out like that it will get nicked.

Why oh why donÂ’t we leave Mirallas and / or McGeady on the halfway line when we defend a corner? That would force the opponents to leave 2 or 3 back and give us more space to play out or to be more direct with the counter.

We all know Roberto fancies himself as a tactician so letÂ’s see how flexible he can be and introduce a couple of stabilising changes. I for one would be happy with mid table if we could have success in the Europa League or FA Cup, but nothingÂ’s guaranteed of course, letÂ’s hope by March it doesnÂ’t drift away and were in a dogfight with nothing to show.

Paul Hewitt
10 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:28:39
Martinez said "You win games At being good at what you do". Enough said.
Mark Andersson
11 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:05:22
Too many cherries me thinks. Just making matters worse for himself.

Only a positive run of games will blunt the knives. IÂ’m a realist 12 months ago I bought into everything this man said and achieved. Now looking at the stark reality I get what he is saying, but the performance and results are contradicting his philosophy.

Fantasy football in his mindset is all very well, however until he gets the kind of players that can play his fantasy game then he is more deluded as the fans who, believe that we are going to buy a top gk and cb.

The game against a very poor Newcastle in which we made them look good is proof that this current manager is talking utter shite.

IÂ’m embarrassed to be associated with him. I could do what others do and cut and paste his many ridiculous quotes, and make a valid argument against it.

He reminds me of Hitler when his generals where advising him that they where losing the war and we all know what happened there.

If Billy and the board have bought into all this then we are as fucked as the German army.

To any fans traveling to the Hull game, good luck – I do admire your optimism.

Derek Thomas
12 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:33:15
Short version; Roberto gives all and sundry a Big non-Churchillian Vee sign.

Taxi!

Brendan McLaughlin
13 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:44:31
"I donÂ’t work on having a good defensive record to win things"....no shit Roberto! How many goals have we conceded?
Simon Harris
14 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:36:24
Derek - more like ThatcherÂ’s "The LadyÂ’s not for turning"

To focus on the last 2 games when weÂ’ve been poor since pre-season is bonkers.

HeÂ’s either a genius (please god let it be so) or an imbecile, that could leave Kenwright with a decision in the coming weeks.

How long does he leave it if Martinez cannot turn it around and show signs of getting enough points to protect our Premier League survival.

6 home wins will hopefully be enough... West Bromwich and Leicester coming up are must-win games, whoever the manager.

Frank Crewe
15 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:45:36
As I said in another thread, managers sack themselves and this guy is just begging for it. HeÂ’s obstinate and blinkered in the extreme. No doubt when he does get the boot heÂ’ll blame it on everyone but himself.
Kuli Maingi
16 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:55:24
"I donÂ’t work on having a good defensive record to win things." - no shit Roberto!
Paul Hewitt
17 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:55:06
Frank@ 15 mate 100%
Phil Sammon
18 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:41:40
What else is he going to say? Martinez was very clear as soon as he got the job. This is a long term project reshaping from top to bottom. Last season was unexpectedly good, this one unexpectedly bad. IÂ’m not happy how itÂ’s going and IÂ’ll whinge like every fan is entitled to do...but I think those calling for his head are completely jumping the gun.
Teddy Bertin
19 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:38:52
Some of you lot make me sick. I read this website every day and IÂ’ve really got to stop. Show some class and get behind your team. We played some great football last season and weÂ’ve attracted a quality of player that we could never have dreamed of in the Walter Smith era. (Yet some of you think they were better times. Bakayoko was fantastic wasnÂ’t he?)

I’m not happy about the performances but we’re now on a bad run, like Man Utd were at the start of the season... like Arsenal were for a bit (they’ve got some classy fans too)... like Chelsea were for spells last season... Oh hang on – like most clubs go through from time to time actually. Give the man time. I thought Everton fans were better than this but we’re clearly not. Absolutely no different to those horrible turncoat shit houses across the park and the ungrateful, classless Wenger out brigade.

What do you expect Martinez to do? Come out and against his character say that the players are shite and Bill better get his wallet out? ThatÂ’s not his style. He showed heÂ’s not happy at Newcastle by dropping Rom and Barkley and starting Garbutt. WeÂ’ve had awful injuries and a group of players who came back severely affected by the World Cup in the summer. Robbie got Everton playing some great football last season and qualified for Europe, the year before he won the FA Cup.

Shouts of Moyes, Pulis, McClaren are ridiculous. What have they ever won and why would we want their style of play at Goodison after we finally started beating the so called Top Four teams last season? All teams that have a good run get found out. The players and the manager then they have to adapt and show some character. We havenÂ’t seen that in the last few months but it will be back because weÂ’re one of the greatest clubs on the planet. COYB

Derek Thomas
20 Posted 31/12/2014 at 01:00:42
Phil my Â’inane jibe Â’ is indeed here and elsewhere. My reasoned ( to me ) argument(s) are on the Â’ LukakuÂ’s the problem Â’ thread to name but six.

The Man has got a bigger shovel for Christmas and is in his hole digging it out to full Â’ Fuhrer Bunker Â’ size...

James Flynn
21 Posted 31/12/2014 at 01:03:24
Phil - Fair enough. Paul Hewitt clearly wants him gone. You think he should be given time. Since we know what Paul wants without a doubt, what do you see Roberto doing this time next year; deep into the third season of his long term plan?

Is there anything youÂ’re seeing now that reflects RobertoÂ’s plan into next season or 2015-2016? HeÂ’ll only have one year left on his contract by that time.

I see him providing "expert" analysis on some network here in America by then. What do you see?

Peter Mills
22 Posted 31/12/2014 at 01:10:35
"IÂ’ve been in this situation too many times". Blimey.
Patrick Murphy
23 Posted 31/12/2014 at 01:05:17
I said it on another thread but I read this as the manager laying down the gauntlet to his players, it is how they respond to this in the coming months which will shape both the managerÂ’s and EvertonÂ’s fortunes. If there has been in-fighting as has been rumoured then there is a lot to be said for his stance but it is a gamble for him and he wonÂ’t have said these words lightly. I admire his guts and self-belief and it will bring things to a head one way or the other, letÂ’s hope it is the correct strategy for the sake of all Evertonians.
Tony Byrne
24 Posted 31/12/2014 at 00:25:23
I actually wanted RM a year before he joined us, God knows why but I just had a good feeling that he was suited to our club so I was pleased with his appointment.

A first good season under RM but then we had that dreadfully prepared pre-season, that had the alarm bells ringing for me & I made comments to my brothers & my blue mates that we would struggle this season, of course I took a bit of stick about being far too negative.

I now see the true RM for what he is, defensively he is awful, just as one observation (there are many I know)have a look at the Newcastle game, Alcaraz is coming out of defence with the ball on the right hand side in the first half, the gap between him & Distin must be 60-70 yards!!!!!! as well as our fullbacks pushed further forward this is where we usually lose the ball,40 yards from goal at least 4-5 times a game, add Mcgeady to these tactics, 31 goals conceded, need I say anymore.

I am no tactical football guru but I know shite when I see it! more importantly, I know shite when I hear it, that interview on Sky tonight (quoted above) has pushed me over the edge. I love RM he is a really decent bloke & I would love him to turn it around, but at this point in time I just canÂ’t see it.

Phil Sammon
25 Posted 31/12/2014 at 01:13:57
James Flynn

What was his contract, four years? HeÂ’s been in the job 18 months or so now and you have to say that the majority of it has been very pleasing.

Lately it has been utter dross and I struggle to see where heÂ’s going with it. IÂ’m not against people having a pop at him. He received enough adulation when things were rosy. However comments like Â’Love to see this guys next jobÂ’ just seem to be sticking the knife in without any intelligence or justification.

My hopes for the future are that we start seeing the kind of football I was in awe of last season. The Newcastle game at home for example. I was practically welling up I was so happy to see the Blues playing like that. Can Martinez deliver that consistently? I donÂ’t know...but I do think he deserves a chance. The last one had 11 years after all.

Michael Penley
26 Posted 31/12/2014 at 01:29:46
IÂ’m happy to finally see a bit of honesty coming from him. He clearly believes in his style of playing and is confident it will work. That comes with a price, however. HeÂ’s talking like a manager who has proven success and has won several Premierships (a cup doesnÂ’t count).

Assuming that the success of last season was a combination of Moyes strong set-up and a more adventurous approach, thereÂ’s not much evidence that a full conversion to the Martinez style will bring us long term league success. I think itÂ’s worth the risk, until relegation becomes a threat. WeÂ’re not quite at that stage yet.

Brendan McLaughlin
27 Posted 31/12/2014 at 01:58:32
Seriously, when you tie in Luke GarbuttÂ’s comments about not practising the defence against Newcastle with the above... itÂ’s pretty scary!!!
Joe Clitherow
28 Posted 31/12/2014 at 01:40:33
Delusional.

And in the next breath:
"I will allow the results to speak for themselves" Err I think they are doing.

Followed by:
"But the pundits are only assessing those two games — they haven’t got the deep information or focus from watching that team over 18 months"

Well I have.

And to Phil 25
"HeÂ’s been in the job 18 months or so now and you have to say that the majority of it has been very pleasing."

No, I donÂ’t have to say any such thing.

I think he started well by adding something different to the solid foundation he inherited, and not much more than that.
Then I think he was found out, plain busted in fact, in the worst way possible by his erstwhile apprentice at the worst possible place. Then other managers took note and adapted whilst he stood still wrapped up in his philosophy - to a degree which seems obsessive/compulsive to me - and continued (and still continues) to serve us up on a plate to anyone who just applied the correct and simple countering tactics. So back to March/April would be roughly half of the 18 months you refer to.

He has also spunked away money on some very poor buys and on aged players with zero sell on value and seems to be destroying much of the graft-based foundation he inherited to chase his tiki taka-lite based dream. Even the best exponents of this, the Spanish national team, and to an extent Barcelona have been countered eventually by much lesser teams and Martinez is no Del Bosque either, nor are Barry et al Xavi or Iniesta. These last two would be the most "outstanding" practitioners of the system he refers to, no?

Football moves on but Martinez seems to want to stand still just to prove a point, and he is failing to do so badly.

Eric Myles
29 Posted 31/12/2014 at 02:44:25
"I’ve been in this situation too many times". 

The last time being at Wigan by any chance?

Conor McCourt
30 Posted 31/12/2014 at 02:44:42
Great post Teddy. Even allowing for this seasons disappointment he still would have a greater points per game ratio than any of our previous incumbents for the last 30 years.

Oh sorry I forgot this was all down to Moyes even though 6 regular starters had nothing to do with the man.

DonÂ’t leave the site mate because we need proper fans on here who support the blues through thick and thin. This is RobertoÂ’s first rocky spell and our supporters have shown patience in the past with managers who didnÂ’t have the credit in the bank that this one does.

Frank Crewe
32 Posted 31/12/2014 at 03:07:06
@Pat23

"Laying down the gaunlet to his players"

Managers never win these battles.

Moyes at Manure
AVB at Chelsea and Spurs
Hodgson at the RS
Alladyce at the Barcodes

These and many other have all bit the dust with their "philosophy" flying.
The style you play must fit the players you have until you have the players that will fit the style you wish to play. If your players are unable or unwilling to play the style you wish them to play then you must accomodate them. Because as I have already shown examples of in a battle between manager and players the manager will inevitably lose and get the sack because the players will inevitably lose matches which in turn threatens the status of the club.

From reading between the lines this battle is raging at Everton and as we can all see itÂ’s damaging the club an threatening our PL status. He does not have the players to play like some Barcalona on the Mersey so he must change his style to match the players at his disposal.

If he cannot do this he will have sacked himself and proven himself too rigid in his thinking and lacking in tactical awareness.

I just hope he doesnÂ’t drag the club down with him and BK sees the light before itÂ’s too late.

Paul Ferry
33 Posted 31/12/2014 at 04:06:52
Teddy Bertin (19): absolutely wonderful post mate, agree with every single syllable and statement.
Robin Cannon
34 Posted 31/12/2014 at 04:40:53
IÂ’m absolutely supportive of the statement generally. This is a long term project, with an attacking philosophy and a generally positive approach.

ThatÂ’s what itÂ’s supposed to be, at least. ItÂ’s clearly not been that way this season after the first few games, where we got badly stung. WeÂ’ve lost confidence and thus the attacking momentum and the *good* risk taking that was present has fallen off, and now weÂ’re too ponderous. I hope/assume that the slow nature of our build up is not what weÂ’re talking about when RM says we wonÂ’t change.

Does anyone really think a quick short passing game with positive attacking intent is *not* a philosophy worth sticking to?

Performances have to change. Tactical flexibility has to change. Much improvement has to be made. A philosophy about how we play the game doesnÂ’t have to.

Also, can we please stop throwing the Wigan relegation at him as if itÂ’s all about him? He had to take a team with already the lowest budget in the league and cut their wages by 22% so they were self sustaining, itÂ’s not like he drove them into decline from a solid position without extenuating circumstances.

Peter Barry
36 Posted 31/12/2014 at 05:15:29
Teddy Bertin # 19 so when this season did Man U , Chelsea or Arsenal lose three games on the trot?
John Zapa
38 Posted 31/12/2014 at 02:23:53
He still needs 2 more transfer windows to have a full blown relegation ready squad. The implications of this disastrous season will be felt next year. There will be 20million hole in the budget next year due to much lower prize/TV revenue and no Europa revenue. This means that a couple of big names will have to be sold, such as Coleman, Kevin M, McCarthy.

The squad will probably be the oldest ever assembled in the premier league, especially if he gives Alcaraz a new contract.

The club will survive relegation this year for sure. Not so sure about next year though.

Brent Stephens
39 Posted 31/12/2014 at 05:49:51
His statements are so full of meaningless sentences, internally contradictory, non-sequiturs, evidence-contradictory denial - and Frank Sinatra.
Denver Daniels
40 Posted 31/12/2014 at 05:40:35
RobertoÂ’s coming across "all style, no substance".

Reminds me a bit of Keegan under Newcastle. And we all know what happened there. At least that team could score goals.

A little pragmatism might go a long way.

I hope he can turn it around but the signs donÂ’t look good.

Billy Blue Balls needs a caretaker manager on speed-dial as I would give him till the end on January to turn things around, and then pull the pin if nothingÂ’s changed.

I guess what happens below us will dictate his future as much as what we do. Even if we start playing better, we still need to be picking up points.

He certainly isnÂ’t doing his own career any favours with his sheer pig-headedness....................never-mind our own clubÂ’s future.

COYB

Peter Z Jones
41 Posted 31/12/2014 at 06:01:51
There is nothing wrong with our style of play. There is everything wrong with our execution of this style.
Brent Stephens
42 Posted 31/12/2014 at 06:06:12
Transition to an attractive, attacking form of football, which at the same time wins points, was always a tempting offer on RobertoÂ’s appointment.

No problem if the transition happens without the loss of too many points, while those who canÂ’t are shipped out and those who can are brought along (existing first teamers) or brought through (from the U21s) or brought in (on new signings).

Saying "get behind the manager" because weÂ’re in a period of transition - well, I understand that but fear time might not be on our side, with a relegation battle facing us. The biggest judgement now will be with Bill - to decide that we can "transition" sufficiently this season while staying up and hang on to RM; or to decide that we will lose too many points over the rest of the season, regardless of the degree of "transition" and replace RM, and if so, at what point he does that and who with.

I donÂ’t know whether RM can pull the rabbit from the hat in time this season. So itÂ’s all in BillÂ’s hands. A nail-biting second half of the season beckons.

Paul Andrews
43 Posted 31/12/2014 at 06:52:45
Teddy Bertin.

Great post.
The best post I have read on ToffeeWeb for a long time.

Ian Jones
45 Posted 31/12/2014 at 06:19:27
As usual on this site, some great posts, some great points made. Teddy (19) the best so far. I can understand the criticism of the manager this season and he doesnÂ’t help the situation with his comments in interviews. The fact that he took Wigan down with what appears to be the same style of play also naturally doesnÂ’t help him in terms of how supporters perceive his methods.

My only contribution is that the players have to take some responsibility as well for the way they play. Too many players making individual errors which unfortunately end up in the back of the net. You canÂ’t always blame the style of play imposed on them by the manager. The players we currently have know what is expected. If they are good enough they should be able to play in a variety of positions and deal with it. They managed it last year to good effect.

As hard as it is to see the team playing in what appears an inept way week in week out, we as Everton fans should back the players and management and try to be more patient and give some confidence back to the team. Booing the team is not helpful. Football is all about confidence. Support the team. We are Everton fans. LetÂ’s not start whining like other teamÂ’s supporters

Happy New Year

Paul Andrews
46 Posted 31/12/2014 at 07:26:23
Ian,

Well said mate.
Especially the last paragraph.

Darryl Ritchie
49 Posted 31/12/2014 at 06:58:17
Possession for the sake of possession is pointless. We seem to pass the ball around in our own half fairly well; that is until we make a mistake and they nick it and we have to scramble to defend.

When we do get in a good attacking position, the possession game goes out the window. When we SHOULD be playing ticka tacka, and trying to set up a decent scoring chance, we seem to run out of ideas.

At the start of last season, I wasnÂ’t sure RMÂ’s way was the way to go. The play was slow and sluggish, and none of the team looked comfortable playing out from the back. And then from about the Derby onwards, everything seem to fall into place. It made watching Everton truly enjoyable!

WeÂ’re about halfway through this season and the Blues are playing worse than at any time last season. The keeper and the back 4 are Swiss cheese, and the forwards seem to be hesitant going forward, because of it.

Injuries, old age and what appears to be a lack of commitment in key players, has made RMÂ’s second season a bit of a grind thus far. The World Cup didnÂ’t help either, for a number of reasons that have been discussed at length on TW already.

Some have suggested that RM has lost the dressing room. IÂ’m not so sure about that, although it must be a really depressing place, these days.

The only way to right things, is to throw some money at it. We need some younger blood at the back. All of our problems begin and end with the keeper and the CBs!!!

Steven Telford
50 Posted 31/12/2014 at 07:45:03
I was/am advocating that we stick with Martinez………… however his words prompt deep concern.
In particular: “You don’t win games by changing the style. You win games by being very good at what you do,”

Well, if your style is not winning games, then evidently, you are not very good at what you do. And so changing, or at least adapting your style would seem flagrantly necessary.

Can somebody please inform Roberto about a man named Charles Darwin!

Seriously, last season was successful partly because a new style was adapted, any semi-decent opposition manger studies that and ADAPTS to handle it. Therefore……. Any good manger would adapt, evolve and rotate strategies accordingly. He doesn’t have to sacrifice his philosophy to do that. It’s not a binary choice like he seems to view it.

I like Martinez but……… the content of that recent interview is cause for concern.

Paul Dark
51 Posted 31/12/2014 at 07:47:47
At some (theoretical) level, MartinezÂ’s words above make sense. However, in the practical world of the PL, they are frightening.

With his cavalier, debonair outlook, he could easily take us down. His fine words are not backed up by fine team selections and tactics. No club in the PL could play the way he wants with McGeady in the side. Ditto: Robles, Alcaraz and even Osman.

As I have said elsewhere, RM is an ideologue, and his idea(l)s always precede reality, even the reality of relegation - aka the unthinkable.

RobertoÂ’s Everton is beginning to look more and more like foolÂ’s gold. I do hope IÂ’m wrong.

Paul Ward
52 Posted 31/12/2014 at 07:05:35
(Joe Clitherow 28) puts facts into perspective. To read some of our posters and Martinez himself you would honestly believe the rot started 2 games ago. It actually started after the Arsenal game (6th April last season). Did Martinez once say he was to blame for playing inept players out of position? or giving over the hill players contracts or signing Robles, Alcaraz and Mcgeedy. Teddy Birtin I know any Martinez dissenters on this site make you sick but how long do you think he should be given to turn it around ?
Ian Hollingworth
53 Posted 31/12/2014 at 07:52:55
Teddy (19) good post although not quite right to infer that fans gave no class if they complain!

However I do not think the negativity against Roberto is knee jerk. The whole season has been a bad run apart from the Europa league where to be honest we have had Lady Luck firmly on our side.
It started with a dismal pre-season and false promises about the number if new players we could expect.
The league form has been dismal all season and the managers comments constantly defending the style of play and the performances do not help.
At what point can fans with "class" who also pay a lot of money to support the team, raise concerns over what is happening?

Colin Glassar
54 Posted 31/12/2014 at 08:05:43
Any manager worth his salt would say the same thing wouldnÂ’t he? Apart from Roy Hodges, which other manager lets the media/fans pick his team and tactics?
Paul Dark
55 Posted 31/12/2014 at 08:10:20
By the way: being critical does not preclude getting behind the team. It can show care and concern.

Those who are baffled by some of RMÂ’s apparent contradictions still know their history and love the club, past and present.

Ben Jones
56 Posted 31/12/2014 at 08:32:19
You should look at yourselves all the people wanting him to go. We pride ourselves as a club to give managers time, not overly praise him when we do incredibly well last season then call for the sack when we do badly. You get the inevitable "I knew he was bad when he came in" , the same hypocrite who says the school of science is back when we play really well last season.

Give him time and he gets my full support, enough said!

Steve Guy
57 Posted 31/12/2014 at 08:23:48
I wonder what The Dear Leader is making of it?

Billy "he had me at Champions League" Liar needs to get off the fence and back him or sack him.

What am I saying ?! The only time you see his smug mug is on the big screens at GP. If we get beat by West Ham in the Cup you wonÂ’t even see that.

I thought his post match utterances after defeat to the Barcodes were bad enough but this latest set of utterances from Roberto are the most worrying yet. When was the last time you were worried about relegation in December ?

Mike Green
58 Posted 31/12/2014 at 08:47:16
IÂ’m sorry, if thatÂ’s his position he has to go.

Last season the system worked. For whatever reason this season it hasnÂ’t, and having witnessed the Stoke game first hand I canÂ’t see it bearing fruit moving forward. We have been found out and the players know it.

Something has to change, and if Martinez isnÂ’t going to change, someone has to change him.

Mike Oates
59 Posted 31/12/2014 at 08:37:23
IÂ’ve been a supporter for well over 50 years and have seen the good and bad and bloody awful. Last year was undoubtedly a good year, not from a trophy but from the pride given back to us by Martinez and his team.
Like any business case , if you want to change the culture, the mission, the targets it takes time , it’s not a straight line to mañana . There will be ups and downs , but hopefully over 3-4 years an improvement, a new improved target repeatedly set.
IÂ’ve had a go recently but more out of frustration that Martinez just wouldnÂ’t state what we all felt , instead we got the "positive spin" , the claptrap I used to hate when endless consultants would tell the Senior Mgt that everything was great, when clearly when it wasnÂ’t . But over the last 2-3 days I think Martinez has realised that we wont stand for it , and neither will the senior players, and he has had to acknowledge it himself.
I also admire his reply that effectively says we have a target, we all signed on to it and when things are good the route to it is good, players full of confidence, moves come off, risks taken to create goals come off , but when we hit a bad patch the lot comes tumbling down, risks fail, players fail, moves fail.
ItÂ’s about gradually getting back to the way we used to play and that will mean gradually, itÂ’s not one step to glory again but step by step.
Teddy Bertin # 19 sums it up absolutely smashing , we all want what he states but we are all totally frustrated not only with the performances but the excuses afterwards. Liverpool we here 2 months ago with Brenda but look at Monday nightÂ’s game - full of pace, pressing, goal scoring opportunities, players absolutely full of confidence. We just need to start climbing the ladder . amen
Michael Polley
60 Posted 31/12/2014 at 08:53:31
His comments are worrying and verging on delusional.He needs to change tactics or else weÂ’re going to have a very long difficult 2nd half of the season.

BK I think will keep faith with him for now,but things need to improve big time otherwise he should go. The problem is there isnÂ’t any managers of any pedrigree available.

LetÂ’s see what the January window brings in terms of players, but IÂ’m not holding my breath. Like most Blues I feel disappointed, angry,and could almost cry with frustration over our pathetic performances.

Maybe this is a bad dream, and IÂ’ll wake up to find it is August 2014, and the season hasnÂ’t started yet !!!!!!

Mike Green
61 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:06:26
Good post Mike #59 - or are we fiddling while Rome burns.....?
Christopher Dover
63 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:11:49
"You donÂ’t win games by changing the style."

So why did he change it when he took over from Moyes?

Paul Dark
64 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:14:00
Looking closely at RobertoÂ’s comments above, he questions the players, commentators on the game but not himself or his own part in the current problems/crisis. Does that worry those who support him unquestioningly?

I guess IÂ’ve known character types like Martinez in real life: charming, positive - but looking away when they donÂ’t like what they see (selective vision). They talk well and love to look good, above all, but donÂ’t/canÂ’t always act well (ask Distin and Oviedo). Life is more real than that. IÂ’m not asking him to change his philosophy - but he does need to acknowledge the problems and adapt/adjust. ThatÂ’s different from changing his philosophy.

Personally, IÂ’m not willing to give RM a chance IF it means relegation. As we witnessed with his words after Wigan were relegated, he took it quite lightly, praising himself for winning the FA Cup. I wouldnÂ’t want that for Everton. I have terrible nightmares of us going down and Roberto talking about the great nights in the Europa Cup against Lyon and Wolfsburg. I donÂ’t want that.

Paul Andrews
65 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:36:23
Jeff Hughes,

I agree each fan is entitled to their own opinion.

We have the phrase "blind loyalty" being posted more and more on TW.
It is certainly not blind loyalty from me,nor I imagine the vast majority backing Martinez.
We are not blind we can see what is happening on the pitch.
Blind no,loyal yes.
"Reasoned argument" is good,booing is unacceptable in my opinion.
To reverse your point,many of the people trashing Martinez are the people who showed blind loyalty to Moyes.
I myself have been accused of blind loyalty,one fool labelled me a sycophant,but that is ok given he probably doesnÂ’t know the definition of the word.

As supporters we should get fully behind the team for 90 minutes.
Have your reasoned argument in the pub,workplace or wherever NOT booing at the game.

Steven Telford,
What position does Darwin play?

Ged Simpson
66 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:43:01
Glad to see some perspective. Hitler so obviously springs to mind ! I must be a crap fan as watching a footy manager lose 3 games doesnÂ’t give me the same sense of global meltdown.

I must be naive. Priceles

Sean Kelly
67 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:28:19
"You don’t win games by changing the style." — Every manager changes his style to suit the opposition. Look at Mourinho he does it regularly.

"Changing only brings doubts." — Yes you are right to a degree... but it also brings doubt to the opposition. If you train with different styles, it doesn’t bring doubt to your team. Remember what Garbutt said — we did train with the system.

IÂ’ve been in this situation too many times. Yes, Roberto we know season after season you were escaping relegation until you were found out. You must be the luckiest manager around because our beloved leader fell for it and here you go again.

IÂ’ve news for you, Roberto, we at Everton know our football and we can see a spoofer at a distance. Your bullshit was good enough for the pie eaters and peg leg but we donÂ’t buy it anymore.

Daniel A Johnson
68 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:54:34
Let Captain Ahab have his whale with his tippy tappy.

HereÂ’s to hoping we murder Hull.

But I fear Bruce will turn the KC stadium into a bear pit and our pretty meek lambs wont stand a chance.

Phil Rodgers
69 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:45:33
I hate these Â’holier than thouÂ’, Â’Get behind the teamÂ’ posts. No dissenting voices allowed. Like people are somehow happy that Martinez is failing.

Are these the same people who are happy with the way the country is run? Â’Stop complaining about Cameron and get behind the governmentÂ’

Is it really that surprising that on a dedicated EVERTON website that people are complaining when we lose?

Paul Andrews
70 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:59:45
Martinez backer = Tory

Only on ToffeeWeb

Daniel A Johnson
72 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:00:56
There seems to be some supporters who think that by criticising and moaning your not a true supporter.

I mean lets face it if things were great and we were top 6 we wouldnÂ’t be moaning and criticising.

But things arenÂ’t great, its abject shite at the moment and I think its only correct we all collectively on an Everton discussion web site ask what the fuck is going on, without people jumping on your back after every post.

Brent Stephens
73 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:57:13
Roberto "“When you have the players with the mentality and leadership we have missing from the dressing room, it’s going to have an effect, especially in these moments.”

Now whoÂ’s not getting behind the team? Stop booing your own players, Roberto! Or is he just telling it as he sees it?

Ged Simpson
74 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:00:22
Phil 69 : maybe there is an assumption that those who don,t cry and bawl immediately are not true fans. Is that holier than thou ? No. Just arguing from a different perspective.

James Hughes
75 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:04:36
RM – I won’t change or deviate from my football philosophy

19 PL managers now have 1 less team to worry about or plan for as weÂ’ve been worked out already. Happy new year

Brian Harrison
76 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:45:52
Teddy Bertin

I can well imagine that your thoughts of following RMs philosophy was a kin to what those who took part in the " The Charge of the Light Brigade thought of their leaders tactics. But as history proved their leaders tactics were reckless and disastrous the philosophy they followed meant they lost their lives were for us only relegation looms I fear although maybe not this season.

Ged Simpson
77 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:12:52
Paul A …you are clearly a nazi !
Paul Andrews
78 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:16:08
Sig Heil la
Ged Simpson
79 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:16:24
Hitler, Thatcher, Charge of the Light…the Ice Age ? The Big Bang ?
Kunal Desai
80 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:07:30
Short memories and fans being fickle. We had a great season last year points wise. In the midst of a rut and people want Martinez gone. What about getting behind the manager and giving him the opportunity to turn this around. He takes full responsibilty of getting us into this position. For heavens sake Moyes got bloody 11 years!! AND finished 17th in his second season. If results are still poor come October or November then yes his position should be questioned. ItÂ’s ridiculous to even think of getting rid of him at the first sign of a mini slump. What Martinez perhaps needs to do is make one or two changes in his backroom staff.
Paul Andrews
81 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:22:31
Not forgetting the theory of evolution :-)
Paul Smith
82 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:47:47
First off IÂ’m in the yet to be convinced about Martinez and always have even last season. The reason for this is people say he is an attacking manager but I just donÂ’t buy into that. We always play with 1 up front which is fine if you have players bombing on past him but we donÂ’t possess any players apart from maybe Mirallas who looks to get beyond the striker.

This makes it easy for teams to condense the pitch and more awkward for us to play his Tip tap style of football. If he wants to play possession based football like Barcelona he has to realize you have to play at a quicker tempo to get teams out of position not the testimonial pace we play at. Also we never press the ball in packs like Barcelona trying to win the ball back high up the pitch. It is just too easy for teams to get from their own box to our box without us hardly putting a tackle in (thereÂ’s only Burnley with less tackles than us).

When all are fit, I would like to see a 3-4-1-2 formation and push the team 20 yards up the pitch instead of trying to play from our own goal line. My team would be as follows:

Howard/ Robles for now
Jagielka
Stones
Garbutt
Coleman
Besic
McCarthy
Baines
Mirallas
Kone
Lukaku

That team for me would have good legs to get about the pitch with the solidity of two holding players protecting. IÂ’m not one of LukakuÂ’s biggest fans but to spend 㿈 million on a player and not play to his strengths is unbelievable. ThatÂ’s why I would like to see him paired with Kone who does like to come short with Rom going the other way as this gives defenders a question of who to go with.

I donÂ’t know whether this will work but just want us to try different things as what were doing is certainly not working and is easy to play against.

Ant Summers
83 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:08:26
We are EVERTON, We have seen players come and go, Managers(ive lived thru 7) come and go, RM is willing to live and die by his tactics, thats fine he is the manager at the end of the day. There wa no more a pedantic manager than Walter Smith, we all knew at the time his tactics were not working, and was only a matter of time before he was sacked. I truely believe that RM has 4-5 games left to sort it out. HOWEVER, managers, players and board members are there to be shot at, they earn millions of the backs of supporters and if supporters are not allowed to vent their frustration, we may as well just play football games in the virtual world. I do sometimes think RM tests his formations in said worlds.
Gary Carter
84 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:19:56
Roberto Martinez

" I donÂ’t work on having a good defensive record to win things."

Every other manager in the world, in particular ones that win things build a team from the defence. That one sentence has just summed up Martinez for the obstinate clueless imbecile that he is. And all this talk of this being him laying a gauntlet down to the players !!! Haha utter drivel ! The man has no discipline or backbone, hence our lack of fitness and tactical strength and positioning on a football pitch.

IÂ’ve said it once IÂ’ll say it again, Roberto Cretinez must go !!!

Ged Simpson
85 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:23:37
”Sig heil la ” I know we are facing armegeddon but that is one of the funniest posts I have ever seen.
Sean Kelly
86 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:06:08
IÂ’ve read through most thread over the last month or so and I have been critical of Martinez and some players in that time but the common theme running through the threads is everyone desire for success. We have voices and I am one of them that wants change. We saw a change lady year when we played the most attractive change in our style of play for many years. The current crop of players were the same ones that made that change. They have proven they are flexible. Roberto is the inflexible one. He had a system that worked for one year. Others have studied this and found a way to nullify it. It up to Roberto to adapt some not all aspects of his style to carry us forward. In this he has definitely failed and unless he does it soon we are destined for the ultimate failure the championship.
I for one will express my views on what I see on the pitch and off it because I love this club. IÂ’ve lived this club for nearly sixty years and they werenÂ’t all good ones. In times past when we werenÂ’t doing so well I donÂ’t remember walker smith lee or the latter kendall talking shite about how good they were. They knew the fans could see what was going on on the pitch and had the savvy to keep stum. But our current incumbent is a media darling but looks like a clown when we lose and he talks as if we have layed they opposition off the park.
Tony Waring
87 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:26:46
Paul #65 - in answer to your question about Darwin. HeÂ’s always the first name on the team sheet - they call it "natural selection".
Sean Kelly
88 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:27:45
Kunai how long are you prepared to wait lad. When your buying ticket for Cardiff or Leeds or Wigan again?
Jimmy Kelly
89 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:39:48
Teddy, who are you to decide what is Â’classÂ’ and what isnÂ’t?

I have had a season ticket for 20 years, IÂ’ve been to away games from Sunderland to Southampton, Newcastle to Norwich. IÂ’m a level headed bloke and IÂ’m not known for hitting the panic button, IÂ’ve never called for a manager to be sacked or booed the team off. As far as iÂ’m concerned Martinez has serious questions to answer. IÂ’m not calling for his head, but I will be if he doesnÂ’t turn this round - and quickly. Sitting idly by twiddling your thumbs while the future of the football club is in potential jeopardy is not Â’classÂ’, itÂ’s stupidity.

Can we also cut out this ridiculous Â’weÂ’re Everton, we donÂ’t do thatÂ’ stuff. Ask Bingham, Lee, Harvey, Kendall, Royle or Smith if Everton give people time. Ask Catterick if he felt being acosted by fans for dropping a player was Â’classyÂ’ or Kendall if he felt he had great support when there were leaflets asking for him to be sacked being handed out. Goodison has always been just as hostile to itÂ’s own as it can be to the opposition, despite what people like Ian and Paul might want you to believe.

In terms of the football, thereÂ’s been a lot of talk this season about Â’individual errorsÂ’ but in reality very few of them have been simple mistakes by one player. IÂ’d class an individual error as something like Distin at Wembley, Howard/Osman on boxing day last year, or Stevie G against Chelsea. All of these were situations you would be happy to be in before one error leaves you horribly exposed, theyÂ’re very difficult to guard against. The second goal on sunday, for example, was nothing like that. A poor punch by Robles, botched clearance by Barry, silly pass from Baines, poor positioning and pass by McGeady, and Coleman (a fullback!) already ahead of the ball 30 yards from our own goal. ThatÂ’s a coaching issue, not an individual error. Same thing with SouthamptonÂ’s first. You can look at Lukaku putting the ball in his own net and say itÂ’s an error, or you can actually analyse it and see that Barkley didnÂ’t track Clyne, meaning a cross came into the box too easily, Naismith played a ridiculous pass back into his own box, Jagielka made a hash of his challenge and Howard failed to come for the corner. All before it got to that stage. There are serious flaws in how weÂ’re playing and they are not being ironed out. WeÂ’re not talking 2 games or even 2 months here, but going right back to last season.

Neil Gribbin
90 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:33:52
I was prepared to give Señor Martinez more time, but this statement about not preparing a defence......it worries me. Lots!
You have to change things up Robertoooo.....too many times we have tried to play it out and been caught out. Not acceptable, amateurish, and believe it or not, you are not that good a manager. Yet.
Get the team to show some fight, boot it up, if it is needed and start turning this around, otherwise it is adios for me.
Raymond Fox
91 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:01:18
I have supported Roberto to the hilt, and his ideals are praise worthy, but some of his comments are not doing himself any favours!

I think he should realise now that the players overall are not good enough to play the way he likes too.
If we had City, Chelsea players, yes by all means play possession football but we havnÂ’t, we cant afford to buy a team of their overall class.

Even if we were doing well at the moment, IÂ’m getting very concerned about the number of aged players that are all going to have to be replaced in the near future, I wouldnÂ’t want to be in his shoes when this moment arrives.

Whoever is our manager is though, our ability to win something each season is blighted by not having enough money to compete with the very best teams, hence the barrenness our last 20yrs.

I think 99% of us realise this is the root cause whichever style we play!

Paul Andrews
92 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:40:13
Jimmy,

You are right,previous managers got the booing.
The fans were wrong then and they are wrong now.

Kunal Desai
93 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:35:59
Sean #88 - perhaps can tweak one or two things in the Jan window. A loan signing or two. It worked for Moyes a few years back with Jelavic and Pienaar. Obviously if we are in the bottom 3 come March then drastic measures may need to take place. We have more than enough quality not to drop in those positions and this year may be a season where we ride it out and finish bottom half. IÂ’m confident we wonÂ’t be anywhere near the bottom 3 in May. Lets judge him next season, with a better pre season in place. We as fans are always to take on board the happy times but are quick to flush out any bad moments.
Dave Cooney
94 Posted 31/12/2014 at 09:38:20
Teddy Bertin (19) - fantastic post. However, as an Everton fan, even with the negativity with a lot of the posters on this site, you will find yourself logging onto it because there is simply nothing online that deals with all things Everton as good as ToffeeWeb.

The views about Roberto on here, are however at loggerheads with the views of my circle. Yes, obviously everyone is worried – and by no means happy. I have friends who have booed and who have strong, negative views on certain players. However, almost to a man, every Everton fan I know, wants Roberto to stay (the truth). This is why I find it so confusing when I come onto ToffeeWeb every day and read the negativity.

I am not berating anyone, we all want the same thing, great football with the chance of a trophy, I just know that the majority of views I am reading on here, are at odds with what I am hearing from my friends and aquaintances.

I thoroughly enjoyed most of last season, and loved our attacking verve, the first few games of this season. What has happened since is not acceptable. Therefore, should we get rid? Unfortunately, football fans are notoriously fickle (yet want faith off players/staff etc) and in that sense we are exactly the same as Stoke or Spurs fans. It is usually he who shouts loudest that gets heard and it is simply not in human nature to shout in support of someone when others around you are vehemently attacking him.

Obviously I would keep Roberto and feel that Bill will. However, it is the long term that I worry – when Roberto gets it right, and that is surely what as Everton fans we all want, after all some of last season’s stuff was scintillating football.

When he is tempted by another bigger club, will he think, "This is a special club with special fans" or will, as I suspect, will he consider us just exactly the same as anyone else. In that case why would any player/ manager not move?

Finally the point I am getting at is that I fully believe he will eventually get it right (Moyes finished 17th, 4th then 11th in successive seasons before getting us stability as a top 6-8 side playing dire football – even the 4th position had us with a -1 goal difference) but we must keep the faith. We all want the same thing but at Everton, it’s never simple.

I was at the home match in 1983, I think it was against Coventry, I think we drew 0-0, it was a night match with about 13,000 fans there. I was in the Main Stand and the abuse Kendall and the team took (that fact is right!) was merciless. Thankfully for me and my age group, EvertonÂ’s hierarchy kept the faith.

Paul Andrews
95 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:43:50
Raymond Fox.

In a nutshell mate.
We will never have the funds while Kenwright and co are in charge.
The only possible way to compete is to build a team and squad that is comfortable playing the system you want them to.
This will take a few seasons for any manager to bring players in and work players out.
We have to back him to have any chance of this happening,it is a long term project

Daniel A Johnson
96 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:40:16
Your defence is your foundations you build from the back.

Its worrying Martinez inherited some pretty solid defensive foundations now its like Martinez has eroded them away.

I agree there has been individual errors BUT it smacks to me they are errors that have come from the coaching or lack of it. We have no discipline or fail safe at the back anymore. Teams know if they pressure us we will give them a present eventually.

Jim Bennings
97 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:44:20
One thing is for sure and that is only a WIN will be sufficient at Hull tomorrow.

After the woeful run we have had and the fact our next league game is against Man City, a draw against Hull, for a second time in the space of a month will not be good enough.

No disrespect to Hull but at present they are a very poor team, aalthough to be fair they could actually say the same about us, they will fancy their chances at home to us, but IÂ’m seeing it only from a Everton perspective and the way I see it is if we are failing to beat Hull AGAIN just who are we going to beat?

James Martin
98 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:22:09
I come back to the same problem there was under Moyes. Players who cannot lead themselves. You look at the Chelsea team Mourinho built. They won trophies under Mourinho, Hiddink, Ancelotti, RDM and Benitez. Yes that is a list of some of the worldÂ’s top managers but they all had different footballing approaches. The difference is top players take responsibility for their own performance, they donÂ’t blame the formation, fatigue, injuries, the manager. Everton do not have top players. They have cowards who cling to their manager when the going gets tough then lap up the praise when its going well.

This is why Moyes was perfect for a lot of them. He had them drilled in a basic formation that they understood. When it went wrong Moyes fronted up to the press, took all the blame, protected them, and then rewarded them with big contracts. In the few moments however when Moyes could not help them their pitiful weakness was laid bare for all to see. Countless times when they came close to achievement under Moyes they choked like the spineless bunch they are. Everyone at the time blamed Moyes for this but I always blamed the players. At home to Wigan, a side Moyes had never lost to in the league, with your best team out, to lose 3-0 was all the players. Moyes had set them up for these big moments through player acquisition, training, league performance, cup runs, but as soon as it came to the moment he was looking for them to pay him back they failed him every single time.

The same happened last season as well. Motoring along brilliantly while the pressure is off until the crunch came. Last minute at Goodison v Liverpool - conceded, Anfield derby - went for the worst loss of the season, up game with Arsenal on the ropes - gave away a needless pen to shoot ourselves in the foot, home game against palace with champions league in our hands - choked. Again RM had set up a way of playing that had produced results but when he looked for his players to give something back in the big moments they were unable to.

The problem for Martinez this season is he is asking his players to play different formations in different positions with complicated tactics. To play it well it requires pace, physical fitness, tactical discipline, in game management, and leadership and responsibility. Does it work? Potentially yes when you saw average Wigan sides at the end of seasons going away to Arsenal and Liverpool and winning and beating Everton and City away from home in the cup. When done right the theory behind MartinezÂ’s logic is indisputable, you can build a possession based machine that starves the opposition as we saw to our peril in that infamous cup game.

The problem is the players just do not have the mental aptitude to play it. He has given them responsibility and they cannot handle it. If Martinez was managing one of the top Italian or Spanish sides he would have no problem. This group of player however would only thrive under a control freak like Mourinho or Ferguson. Even Wenger I donÂ’;t think would do anything for them. They need to be told almost to the second exactly what to do. Thats why when it went to plan under Moyes it looked so good, they were safe, confident, and knew exactly what to do as they had been told in training all week. As soon as it goes wrong however, away from plan, not expected, they just fold. They do not have the characters to then impose their own will on a game, rescue a situation and get the plan back on track, or god forbid change the plan mid way through a game to find a solution without the manager drip feeding it to you at half time. Martinez is trying to give this group of players the ability to have a plan A B and C and alter it mid game. It does not work however as this group can barely handle a plan A.

I hope Martinez can turn it around as I like him, I think theoretically he is a very good manager and as fans we should back him to reshape a squad that has achieved jack all. I fear, however, that he will never achieve the results him and us want because he has a useless group of players who only perform in their comfort zone when the pressure is off and will never accept responsibility for anything. This is the exact opposite to Everton tradition which normally saw teams who would raise their game in the big moments, less talented players who would stand up and be counted when the pressure was really on like relegation battles, less talented teams who would win trophies against the odds. Even recent players like Campbell Ferguson Carsley even Cahill all despite playing in poorer teams have that Â’EvertonÂ’ spirit about them. Taking responsibility, showing leadership, leading by example, performing when it matters when it is the most difficult to do so when everyone else is playing badly.

Not one player in this current group of over privileged cowards has any of these traits and ultimately that will probably be what buries Martinez like it did for Moyes.

Tony Hill
99 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:33:06
If the players do not support the manager - and some are clearly not putting in a shift for him - then who do the fans support? I suppose the answer is that we support the club by turning up as so many of us do.

I sincerely hope that those who think we will get over our worries by backing the manager are correct. I have expressed similar views myself but there comes a point when results/performances and principles of loyalty come into conflict, and it is no betrayal of the club to have that in mind when commenting on here.

Daniel A Johnson
100 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:48:19
This whole debacle we find ourselves in is because of our pre season.

I think Martinez seemed to have this strange post World Cup philosophy for training/preseason for the players.

What ever it is/was it was bollocks. We started the season not ready and weÂ’ve been playing catch up ever since. Maybe thats where our injuries are coming from, unfit players pushing too hard. Either way the players conditioning is all over the place.

Look at Bayern Munich that whole first team was practically the German world cup squad that went all the way to the final and played extra time twice.

Yet Guardiola insisted all players came back on schedule and they have walked the german league so far.

James Stewart
101 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:56:02
Blinkered. He really is begging for the boot. You need to be pragmatic and varied in what you do. Who cares if we score from set pieces are open play. Why not be good at both!? An idiot whose days are thankfully numbered.
Paul Smith
102 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:31:20
Can it be good for you continually watching football? (DVDs) (BusmanÂ’s holiday).

In my Profession we have a term commonly referred to as "burnout" (emersing yourself solely in your work) showing yourself lack of care.

This way its easy to Loose sight of the goal so to speak and from what I hear, RM is totally obsessive with respect to learning his philosophy. Nothing wrong with this I suppose, as long as you come away now and then to get a better perspective and digest what you have learnt.

Colin Glassar
103 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:01:31
in 1941 after the German invasion of the USSR the soviet armies collapsed and millions of soldiers were killed or captured. What did Josif (Joey in English) Stalin do? Well after a nervous breakdown he issued the infamous, Â’Not one step backÂ’ edict and slowly but surely the tide turned and Gerry got his arse kicked.
Now IÂ’m not calling for players to be shot for cowardice but they need to stiffen up and feel the fear. CÂ’mon Roberto, you can do it.
Paul Andrews
104 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:07:52
Schalke and Borussia Monchengladbach have hit back at Bayern Munich chairman Karl-Heinz Rummenigge for suggesting the rest of the Bundesliga are plotting against his side.

Sky Bet
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Rummenigge accused his clubÂ’s rivals of rejecting BayernÂ’s request to delay the start of the 2014/15 season in order to gain an advantage from their World Cup-winning playersÂ’ late return to pre-season training.

The new campaign commences on August 22, with BayernÂ’s players - of whom seven were involved in the World Cup final - in training for only a few weeks at that stage.

Rummenigge had requested at a meeting of club managers several months ago for a longer holiday to be given to those players involved in the World Cup by putting the start of the season back a week.

However, that suggestion was dismissed by the other Bundesliga sides and SchalkeÂ’s director of sport Horst Heldt has defended the decision.

"In the end, itÂ’s not just the big clubs who matter," Heldt told the Bild newspaper.

"We think the start date is correct. We want to see the Bundesliga played in nice weather while there are also plenty of clubs who need the revenue because the break has already been going since May.

"We also had players involved in the World Cup, but we are on the side of the Bundesliga and donÂ’t feel the criticism is aimed at us."

HeldtÂ’s Borussia Monchengladbach counterpart Max Eberl also cannot understand why Rummenigge is making an issue out of a date agreed upon at least a year in advance.

"We have this after every tournament, but itÂ’s not only Bayern who are affected - nearly everybody else is also," he said.

"Solidarity applies to 36 clubs, not just to one."

ThatÂ’s incorrect Daniel.
The Bayern World Cup players returned to training late

Tom Evans
105 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:08:46
Anyone travelling to Hull tomorrow be aware there is no public transport therefore no park and ride which I know is popular with travelling fans.
Guaranteed to bring the town to a standstill, so give yourself a bit more time if you want a pint before the game.
Tom Evans
106 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:15:08
Via Five Live as I type, Tony Pulis to WBA.
One less candidate for us then, and if last season is anything to go by, Albino to finish in the top eight.
Louis Parr
107 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:53:05
Personally I think his tactics are all wrong. I can’t actually recall us putting in an aerial cross this year. I’ve hardly even seen us put in a cross from the byline. And yet, even though we need a new keeper and another centre half, he goes for a winger. If you put in crosses and like to run at full backs, then sure, sign a winger because they could win you games.

Look at Mirallas against Stoke. The only time I’ve seen someone do that this year was Mirallas at Wolfsburg. Then alright, it’s ok that hes not changing his style of play because he’s the manager but how the heck can he not realise that it’s slow tempo?

If you look at Chelsea early this season and how fast their tempo was. Last season, I enjoyed watching Everton because it was quick tempo and positive. This season, it’s like you’re playing with 11 Phil Nevilles. Every game its backwards.

Also, where is Besic? Him and McCarthy seem like the only players who show passion on the pitch. Barry looks like he’s under 3 feet of water. Besic and McCarthy work hard every game. How is Lukaku worth 㿈 million.

But it’s not individual errors. The second Newcastle goal, the goalie coach should teach Robles when to punch and how to punch. Barry should know how to clear that one, so that was an error. Baines should get rid of it but that was Martinez’s style... and McGeady is his style. But we’ve all got to stick by the players because they’re in a relegation battle now.

Lee Gray
108 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:19:26
You only have to look at Wigan....most of them are still his players except the ones that are here!
If anyone thinks weÂ’re too good to go down....DonÂ’t be fooled by a fool!
Iain Davies
109 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:16:31
Egotistical... delusional... I wonder why youÂ’ve been in this situation so many times, Roberto. I hope Kenwright grows a pair and quick!
Phil Walling
110 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:12:56
ItÂ’s as though the team are playing beautiful football at the moment and only the results are disappointing. The truth is that we are being asked to cheer and not boo shite.

In almost 50 years of active support I have NEVER known a time when Evertonians would QUIETLY accept performances that they knew to be below par. And why should they ? And strangely it is so often those who never go near a ground who criticise those who do !

Now itÂ’s not that IÂ’m advocating the practice of verbal displeasure being thrown at the team but I do understand itÂ’s because people care enough to feel let down - particularly those who travel the land in the cause.

I know that I have never given Martinez a prayer of long-lasting success since he came here. Last season, he surprised me but the fears returned with his laissez-faire attitude towards pre-season. What has happened since has shown him as the one dimensional manager I always thought him to be as he has tried to make players fit the style rather than play to their strengths.

Any Latics supporter will tell you that with Roberto it was always Â’style over resultsÂ’. ItÂ’s as though style alone will garner the points - and, of course it wonÂ’t. Even if he succeeds in making every member an artist of the accurate pass there is absolutely no guarantee it will bring results and, over time, even the very best managers have come to realise so.

Only this week, LVG has been moved to say, Â’Some of my players are not confident enough to pick out more intricate passes. But there is much to be said for a more direct approach at times. People talk about long balls and short balls but football is all about playing the right balls. Too often the obsession with playing the ball through each compartment of the team again and again slows teams down. So we must change.Â’

Would that be Martinez talking. Instead of the balls heÂ’s coming out with !

Allan Board
111 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:05:00
Worrying times indeed,and understandably supporters are frustrated. Everyone has there entitled opinion concerning tactics etc and the manager has his.

As for his latest comments, well, the guys not for changing, so now we all know. Personally, I am beginning to think that Everton have just gone in circles since Kendall 87, with a complete lack of leaders and desire to succeed as a team. I now realise that it was Kendall going was the catalyst. I am not blaming him either.

Since then very few "winners" have either managed or played for us and itÂ’s shown. Gradually, the ethos of Everton being a feared opponent has dwindled and is now accepted in football (not by Everton fans) as "steady Everton".

I can only see success again by accepting only the "winning mentality" - anything else should be ignored. I donÂ’t believe we have players who show this. I think they are over coached/cosseted to the point of needing to be guided,literally, through games and cant make there own decisions. Thus you end up in stagnation.

All IÂ’d like for the next few years is to see Everton change this mind set.

Tony Hill
112 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:29:22
James 98, I agree with what you say but RM is not blameless (the tactics around Lukaku, the pre-season, the continued selection of creaky age ahead of youth, a significant number of his transfers).

If this is a power struggle between manager and players then as others have said the manager usually loses. It really is a critical moment for him and I hope he has the courage and self-awareness to win through, I really do.

Paul Tran
113 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:19:15
Can I nominate James Martin 98 post of the year? Bang on the money as usual.

If Pulis gets the WBA job this site will be interesting on Jan 19th.......

Joe Clitherow
114 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:29:49
Well said Phil Walling.

People can rail and gnash their teeth in pubs or on websites all they want but the only real guarantee any fan has that they can be heard and make their true feelings known is when the team, management and board are physically gathered in the same place at the match so why should fans not vent their feelings when they know they are watching shite?

It is actually extremely rare to hear widespread boos during a game, it is almost always reserved for the final whistle which is an appropriate time to register a verdict from fans who have shown enough "class" to get off their behind and go and actually support the club in a totally positive way through thick and, much more often, thin. IÂ’ve never met a fan who has specifically gone to the game to boo, but they may exist I suppose.

So what if theyÂ’re booed too? Who are these delicate flowers who are so traumatised by a bit of a deserved heckle? If they are badly affected rather than rolling up the sleeves and adopting an "IÂ’ll show Â’em" attitude then maybe thatÂ’s part of the problem right there.

ItÂ’s not like the pitch is getting pelted with bottles or even cushions - because I have very vivid memories as a kid of that happening on more than one occasion

Harvey Miller
115 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:46:51
4 points from seven games is relegation form.
Phil Walling
116 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:47:04
Paul, I donÂ’t see much your way, I know, but commending a post that brands all Everton players as Â’cowardsÂ’ is not only to oversimplify the problem but just a cheap shot to cover the shortcomings of those in charge.
Derek Thomas
117 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:22:59
James #98 Could be there is more than an ounce of truth in what you say, but the club canÂ’t afford a massive clear out, nor the time if the results keep on the way they are for Roberto to do slow one.

So where does that leave us

As always with the Blues, more questions than answers.

I feel then, that Roberto has to ( given your premise ) make the best of what he has and slowly work towards the new improved Catalan all singing all dancing footballing New Jerusalem aka Â’The PhilosophyÂ’ by watering down ( how ever he may hate it ) the dose and slowly as he gets the players, up the strength of the dose as he goes...If he tries to give it to us 100% uncut he will kill the patient / patience.

Derek Thomas
118 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:22:59
James #98 Could be there is more than an ounce of truth in what you say, but the club canÂ’t afford a massive clear out, nor the time if the results keep on the way they are for Roberto to do slow one.

So where does that leave us

As always with the Blues, more questions than answers.

I feel then, that Roberto has to ( given your premise ) make the best of what he has and slowly work towards the new improved Catalan all singing all dancing footballing New Jerusalem aka Â’The PhilosophyÂ’ by watering down ( how ever he may hate it ) the dose and slowly as he gets the players, up the strength of the dose as he goes...If he tries to give it to us 100% uncut he will kill the patient / patience.

Franny Porter
119 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:48:00
You know, this site and indeed football in general is all about opinions, but one thing I cant fucking stand is "blind faith patronising giving us a bollocking posts" like Teddys.
Paul Hewitt
120 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:53:25
Every time I hear Martinez speak it makes me more convinced he has to go.
Adam Baig
121 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:53:03
I guess we are all going round in circles, here, but I am genuinely surprised at the amount of people on here wanting Martinez out.

We are half way through the season, and have yet to play one game with a full squad available.

We have had the extra games and travel of the Europa league to contend with, and yet we only added 2 players to an already small squad.

Howard, Distin and Lukaku have all had poor season, but have had to play.

Stones, Barkley, Mirallas and McCarthy have all had serious injuries and have had to be rushed back.

In short, we do not have the numbers to compete seriously for more than one trophy, unless we have a lucky run where injuries are concerned.

We have had some issues with referees, as usual.

I donÂ’t think itÂ’s as simple asÂ’the managerÂ’s faultÂ’ or Â’the playersÂ’ faultÂ’

Tony Hill
122 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:00:28
RMÂ’s treatment of Besic has been symptomatic of deeper problems. Those of us who saw the boy against a very good Porto side, albeit in a friendly, could tell he had real talent and bite. He was not used after that game except for the 2 minute shambles at the end of the Chelsea match.

He was then introduced because there was no alternative when Barry was injured and by consensus he has been our most impressive and forceful player, showing real commitment and. a willingness to take the game to the opposition.

Lo and behold he is then left out as soon as Barry is fit again and, by all accounts, the lad is now fed up.

I donÂ’t excuse such an attitude if he is indeed sulking, but it is this sort of tentativeness with young talent and insistence upon picking older players (he bangs on about this again in the latest quotes) which in my view is a major problem for the team brought about by RM.

Ross Kerry
123 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:01:06
Never understood whatÂ’s meant by relegation form.
You canÂ’t take a microscopic view of performance and extrapolate with great accuracy over a much longer time frame, like a further 19 games for instance.

We picked up 11 points from 15 during a period over the end of October into November - was that really Champions League form though?

We arenÂ’t going to get relegated, he should be given a chance to sort it out.

Harold Matthews
124 Posted 31/12/2014 at 10:25:44
Well at least we know where we stand. HeÂ’s sticking to his guns. For him, itÂ’s the only way we can compete with the money boys.

Unfortunately it can only work if everyone is 100% committed and they are both comfortable and proficient in their allotted roles. All this plus a ferocious will to win.

Okay, Bielsa and Klopp have proved that you can build good sides on a limited budget but these guys are brutal and do not tolerate laziness or mistakes. They also play non-stop vertical football with five men in the opposition box when attacking and all eleven fully committed to defending. Sounds like hell on earth for the players but they actually love and admire their coaches.

Exactly how Martinez sees his dream team performing is anyoneÂ’s guess. At their best, Besic, McCarthy, Mirallis, Coleman, Baines, Garbutt, Lukaku, Oviedo, EtoÂ’o, Kone and Stones fit the bill. Naismith and Jags are willing but lack technical ability. Barkley is an enigma. Has all the talent in the world but has an inconsistent attitude. Barry has the know-how but lacks pace.

We need strengthening at the back, a good keeper and speed on the wings. Above all, we need good, clear, precise coaching. "El Loco" Bielsa lectures his sides 24/7. He hammers everything home, as do Mourinho, Klopp, Guardiola, Van Gaal and Simeone. Their boys never look confused. Our boys are almost scratching their heads.

Anyway, New Year tomorrow and weÂ’ll see how it goes. While Roberto is the manager and our lads are wearing blue, weÂ’ll give them our support. DoesnÂ’t mean we canÂ’t have a real good moan if things are not going well. Cheers everyone. Have a good one. H.

Jimmy Kelly
125 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:49:34
James Martin, I do understand (and mainly agree with) your point, but I think you are giving it too much importance. We can all say that the players are chokers, but the facts donÂ’t really back it up.

EtoÂ’o and Barry arenÂ’t chokers with the careers theyÂ’ve had, clearly. So thatÂ’s at least two out. We have four Wigan players who were able to win the FA Cup with them, Distin and Howard have won the same competition so why would they suddenly freeze when playing in a cup game for us? ColemanÂ’s won a play-off final at Wembley and Gibson has a few medals from his United days. Did McGeady or Mirallas have a reputation for bottling it when playing in big games for their previous clubs? Not that iÂ’m aware of. In the past you could swap the likes of Neville, Heitinga and Saha in for those mentioned and the same would apply.

IÂ’m not sure itÂ’s a mental thing to be honest, more that when it comes to the crunch, the players arenÂ’t quite that good. This has been borne out by the careers of players like Arteta, Pienaar and Fellaini when theyÂ’ve moved on. All very good players here who were pretty average when they went elsewhere.

Paul Andrews
126 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:14:24
Tony,

Besic should be one of the first names on the sheet.
Barry has not got the legs to play the high intensity high tempo game we should be playing.

Phill Thompson
127 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:09:37
It all seems set up for Roberto to do a "Pardew" , as it will now be known as. Lose a few more games, out come the "Marinez must go" banners at GP, a revival leading to a long winning streak at the end of the season, in the summer Real Zaragoza or the like come in for him, he leaves sticking one finger in the air as he departs .
ItÂ’s hard to be happy with the current performances, but heÂ’s still a young manager learning all the time and deserves our support when things are tough . HeÂ’ll come good as will his team .
Dean Adams
128 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:11:30
No matter who says what, I am an EFC supporter.We have been poor of late and with our expectancy levels being high, are in general p***ed off. Totally understandable. I remember us being glad to have 21 points at this time of year. THe season is not over until the last game is played, by which time I suspect we will be in the top 8 and thinking of if onlys again. That is the way it is whether we like it or not. Only huge amounts of money will change it quickly, like at City.
Tony Hill
129 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:15:22
I think actually it may have been MaccaÂ’s injury rather than BarryÂ’s that saw Besic given a chance but my point stands about his treatment by the manager.
Raymond Fox
130 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:53:55
We have scored 29 goals which puts us in 7th place on goals scored, 4 behind Utd in 3rd place, which is suprising given all shouts of tippy tappy shite!

Its obviously only half the tale, our central defenders whoevers played have been found wanting most of the time in the air and sometimes over the ground.
This attacking full backs lark is asking Baines and Coleman to get through mountains of going forward and back, which cant be helping the defence.

Its when we lose possession high up the field, that finds us exposed and vulnerable + we are very poor when crosses in the air arrive in our penalty area.
The defenders are probably the most experienced in the League but this season are playing like inexperienced 18yr olds!

Time to rein in the full backs and think more defence! + we want another central defender pronto.

Denis Richardson
131 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:45:33
The term Â’Pride comes before a fallÂ’ is all that comes to mind having read his comments.

Only good thing to come out of it is that weÂ’ll get to the crossroads sooner rather than later. Either there will be an upturn in results (doubtful but not unimaginable) or the results will continue to be shit and BK will have to act sooner rather than later (probable scenario).

Personally I just cannot see how the players will continue to back him if a) they donÂ’t like the system, which then leads to b) the performances and results are not up to scratch.

Very strange comments indeed. HeÂ’s either so wrapped up in his belief that the system will eventually work or his stubbornness wonÂ’t allow him to change.

Either way I really cannot see him being our manager for much longer - there seems to be something wrong in general and the players donÂ’t appear to be happy.

Nevermind the injuries!

Andrew Clare
132 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:23:26
Dean #128, I hope you are right regarding our finishing position. To me things are far more serious and I think we are in for a real dog fight to survive unless there is a massive change in approach.
Harold in an earlier post was spot on regarding how successful managers operate. They demand 100% from their players for 90+ minutes and full concentration, if these demands are not met they are moved on.
I like RMÂ’s philosophy of possession football but within that style tactics must be interchangeable allowing players to easily switch tactics 2 or 3 times during a match if required.
My main observation apart from no variation in tactics, players playing out of position is that the players do not look motivated.
I am still perplexed as to how bad we are compared to last season.It canÂ’t just be lack of activity in the transfer market.
Joe Foster
133 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:36:18
Captain Ahab "they say a drowning thing will go down and rise up again twice before going down forever"

Paul Tran
134 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:03:19
Phil IÂ’m not trying to oversimplify anything. IÂ’m certainly not trying to Â’cover any shortcomingsÂ’.

IÂ’ve repeatedly stated on here that Martinez has performed shockingly badly since the summer. HeÂ’s a poor judge of fitness and heÂ’s lost the ability to get the best out of his players. The teamÂ’s position is his reponsibility and if he canÂ’t work with the players, heÂ’ll be off and deservedly so.

I just donÂ’t buy into this bullshit that the good stuff last season happened despite Martinez and that he has now emptied the playersÂ’ heads of all their confidence and ability. How badly are these players working for the cause right now? IÂ’ll happily comment on MartinezÂ’s shortcomings, but the players arenÂ’t immune either.

If you read JamesÂ’ post again, youÂ’ll notice his main point is the mental weakness of the players. IÂ’ve noticed that as much as James over the past ten years. Perhaps calling them cowards is a bit strong, but IÂ’ve used stronger words than that over their choking, regardless of who is manager.

Like IÂ’ve said regularly over the last year, these players can pass the ball quickly, they can attack at pace, they can create chances, they havenÂ’t miraculously forgotten how to defend. Right now they canÂ’t/wonÂ’t do this. They look like spoilt sulking kids waiting for the other parent to give them their next treat.

The chief culprit is always the manager in my book, but a bit of spine from the players wouldnÂ’t go amiss. The question is, have they got one and therein lies the point of JamesÂ’ post.

Regardless of what Martinez spouts in front of a microphone, one of these scenarios will happen in the next few weeks:

Kenwright sacks Martinez.
The players get Martinez to change tack.
Martinez gets the players back and we live happily ever after.
The players go to Kenwright and tell him to sack Martinez.

My moneyÂ’s on the last one.

Happy New Year to all Blues everywhere and look forward to the same fun and games on here in 2015.

Dave Lynch
135 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:55:20
My name is Ishmael (substitute Ishmael for Roberto).
Kevin Dale
137 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:16:25
Some great posts with some valid and salient points, I admire RM beliefs and footballing philosophy, but not at the expense of footballing common sense! It does take time to build and get a team to play a certain way, but this surely has to be done gradually and you have to play to the here and now first whilst you slowly build towards your goals/philosophy? He needs the correct players capable of working within his system and this will take time to accomplish.

We do have a good squad of players and whilst I have to admit they are not looking good playing this system, surely a good coach whist not dropping his own beliefs gets the most out of his squad by adapting his system and not trying to change the players (playing them out of position etc) playing to a style they are not happy with and making them do things against their natural ability?

What worries me is that RM seems to think the decline is just been these past few games when it's been plain to see it started towards the end of last season and our pre-season was symbolic to say the least, plus his defensive strategy is very disconcerting!

Steve Carse
138 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:48:09
I didnÂ’t go with the opinion at first that last season RM was benefitting from the Moyes defensive legacy, but the evidence would now support it.

When Moyes left we all wanted a side that was tough to beat but also one that was less restricted in its attacking intent. We got the latter with Martinez and the side seemed to have retained its defensive solidity. But gradually that solidity waned, perhaps because of RM plugging more the virtues of passing from the back and scoring more goals, perhaps because of the loss of mobility as Jagielka and Distin aged and suffered injuries.

Whatever the factors, that solidity has now completely gone. The natural response, initially at least, would be to afford the back line more protection from the midfield. But instead, unbelieavably, the manager has seemingly gone the other way by selecting unbalanced sides with too many whose input on non-attacking duties is erratic and at times non-existent. No wonder official OPTA stats show Everton at the foot of the Â’tackles madeÂ’ table.

I honestly think that if tomorrowÂ’s display and result is as bad as for the majority of recent games then BK will act relatively quickly. Even he will have a threshold of whatÂ’s acceptable and an understanding of when inaction brings with it too many risks. He did, after all, take the necessary timely action to relieve Smith of his duties. And now, with other, less transparent, financial interests involved, there will anyway be added pressures on him.

Kevin Tully
139 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:49:29
Playing styles, philosophies, tactics and any other terms you want to use are are all irrelevant unless the players want to give the manager 100%.

Most players are simple souls. They want to do their thing on the pitch each week, receive a bit of praise in the media, and most of all, they want to come out of any game without criticism. Who do you think Jagielka & Distin are privately blaming for all the goals we are conceding? They are being made to look bad (in front of the entire football world) because sadly, they cannot play in a passing side.

Coleman and Baines are not playing anywhere near their potential, that tells me all is not right on the training pitch. The defence is a shambles, and we certainly have no leaders further up the pitch. It all points to a player revolt, mirroring OFMÂ’s tenure at Man Utd.

I am a massive supporter of Martinez, and his views on how the game should be played. I really thought we were going to see us play even better than last season - thatÂ’s why this season is hurting so much.

My guess is that itÂ’s over for him - and the senior players want him gone so they can get back to playing to their strengths, and hiding behind long balls, and lots of effort.

Jim Knightley
140 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:42:51
James, players are different. It is the nature of football. They are different not just in terms of mentality, but in terms of style and approach. Robben, Messi, Ronaldo and Bale are all incredible players, but even they would suffer relatively in systems which do not suit their style. Robben in fact did suffer, and Mourinho let him go (One of his big errors).

Our teams is not suited to MartinezÂ’s tactics, and this is the problem. Our attacking players are one dimensional in general. What does Barkley do? He runs with the ball, and he shoots (Far too often). McGeady? he performs a trick, and then he shoots or crosses (With head down). Mirallas is brilliant, but he makes poor decisions with the ball, and often runs when he should pass. Lukaku? he is a target man, who is increasingly frustrated by the players behind him. Naismith is superb, but he is a second striker, and not a creative player. Eto is an extremely gifted footballer, but he is often being asked to play out of position, like Naismith and Barkley.

MartinezÂ’s tactics do not fail because the mentality of the players is wrong (there is no doubt that they fail often on big occasions, but that is not the issue here) but because the tactics do not suit the style of the players we have. A passing concentrated style requires passers and movers. It requires Silvas, Artetas, Coutinhos and Cazorlas. Our attacking four are set up for strength and power. The two DMÂ’s were employ are tacklers. Jags and Distin are traditional CBÂ’s, and our full backs are very gifted, but are being stifled by the mess in front of them.

We have been at our best this season when teams attack us with open football, aka Arsenal and Wolfsburg, because then we can pick holes and use the pace and power we have, which is used ineffectively at the moment because of slow build up play which denies our direct players the necessary space to operate. Martinez is playing with a style which would have suited a younger Pienaar, Arteta and Osman. When Osman returns he will perform better because this style suits him (As demonstrated earlier in the season).

We will never reach the heights that we can reach playing this style, because it does not suit our personnel. It might suit Stones, Oviedo and Osman, but it wonÂ’t suit Lukaku, Barkley, Mirallas, McGeady etc. Martinez will not need months but years to reconstitute this side, because it will require different players. I believe we need to give Martinez more time, and I feel that talk of relegation is silly, because we are too good for that, irrespective of our style at the moment. But we will have a crappy season, and the arrogant one dimensional comments of Martinez discussed here do not inspire confidence. We will have a poor season, and I expect that we will lose our best attacking player in Mirallas, and then face a far bleaker future because of it.

It is good to have beliefs and stick to them, but it is essential to see when those beliefs need amending for different circumstances. The rampant Real side of last season and this were so devastating because they mixed styles of play and player. They have fantastic passes in Isco, Kroos, James and Modric, direct runners in Bale and Ronaldo, and a very intelligent striker in Benzema. Marcelo is a superb attacking football as is Carvajal, whilst Arbeloa and Coentrao offer more defensive solidarity. Before them, the Bayern Munich treble winning side was devastating. They could pass a ball, but had pace and power, and like this Real Madrid side, used that pace and power. They, like this Real side, moved the ball quickly, and were direct when they needed to be. These sides should be our model, not a Barca team full of passers who have the tools to make a passing concentrated side work. Lukaku and Mirallas could be devastating when used in the right way. Lukaku scored 17 league goals at WBA, with many coming from the bench, because of a style which suited him. Mirallas is a brilliant goal scorer and dribbler. We need to use a style which suits these players - we need to give the ball quickly to our attackers, and let them exploit space. If we play slowly we will fail, because it will not suit our top striker, and we lack the required midfielders to play the intricate pass.

Raymond Fox
141 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:51:04
Can we just clear the decks of a few things.

We are 12th with a much superior goal difference than the 8 teams below us, we are now 55/1 to be relegated. IÂ’m not saying we canÂ’t get relegated, itÂ’s just highly unlikely!

Am I pleased with our form? No; as far as the players not playing for the manager, theyÂ’re highly pampered and paid athletes/employees who play 1 or 2 times a week, I donÂ’t care if they agree/like the manager whatever, theyÂ’re playing for Everton and should bust a gut each game.
They would be okay in the armed forces: "Oh I donÂ’t like my commander, IÂ’m not fighting today."

WeÂ’re dropping down the League because not 1 of them is performing well consistently or at all and thereÂ’s also a good one-third of them way past their best.
I said earlier weÂ’ve scored 29 goals, nothing wrong there, itÂ’s the defenders who are letting us down, that and individual mistakes like Barkley made in the Newcastle game.

Martinez does need to be a bit more flexible, but itÂ’s the players that play the games.

Ian Burns
142 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:41:43
Harold Matthews 124 - this is an excellent post and I personally agree with every word including the fact we support RM whilst he is our manager. For me however, his time is up and his comments along with those of Garbutt a day or so back, reeks of a manager out of his depth.
Dick Fearon
143 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:23:36
The difference between fucked and completely fucked.
The first is using a system that does not work.
Completely fucked is when the only man who can change the system will not do it,
Dale Haldane
144 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:34:32
I like Roberto Martinez but have to admit I find it infuriating when he comes away from a demoralising defeat spouting the phenomenal intensity of the players.

Obviously this is media spin. It is his way of dealing with the media and not washing dirty laundry in public. I strongly doubt that it is what goes on behind the scenes. But one thing I have been crying out for is for him to drop the nice guy act because it seems to aggravate the fanbase and create pressure and therefore a discordant atmosphere.

I think the latest presser and his frank intentions about not changing his philosophy about style of play is a strong and gutsy response. It shows confidence and is more of an insight into his actual managerial style.

This season has been shit up to now in the league, there is no denying that. For me, this has been caused by the disruption to the strongest partnership of last season, that of McCarthy and Barry. This solid and dominant central partnership gave balance and confidence to the rest of the team, both offensively and defensively. These two have barely played together since October and the alternatives have not gelled. BarryÂ’s know-how, McCarthyÂ’s legwork, and their understanding has been hard to replace, the most promising being Barkley and Besic (although for different reasons).

Martinez is obviously desperate to restore this central partnership, as evidenced by his continual selection of Barry who seems to be struggling. Hopefully it wont be long before these two are both back to the form they showed last season, for RobertoÂ’s sake at least.

Phil Walling
145 Posted 31/12/2014 at 12:57:03
Where we differ, Paul, is that I donÂ’t buy into Â’possession footballÂ’ in the way you do. I know it was much beloved by Wenger, Rodgers and Martinez but the Frenchman was recently moved to say that, as employed by their managers now working on Merseyside, Swansea were guilty of what he terms Â’sterile domination Â’-Â’ the endless recycling of possession, sweeping mandalas painted on the pitch to no end or purpose.Â’

I know, Patrick and others have denied this is what Roberto is all about but so many of his outpourings indicate that he sets great stall by figures that reflect Â’possession statsÂ’ and wants to bask in their light as much as possible.

Of course, in recent years, Barcelona and Spain have been the styleÂ’s most notable exponents. They treasured the ball, cherished it and it rewarded them well. But two key aspects of that Â’philosophyÂ’ have to be considered. No Everton player would get into the Barcelona side and, even in Spain, the style has had to be adapted as teams have developed effective counter tactics.

Unless Martinez can quickly do likewise, he will have condemned both the teams supported by the Walling family to the Football League Championship !

Al Reddish
146 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:25:18
I am gonna hate myself here but.....I have this feeling he will get it right. I havenÂ’t thought much of him since the pre season shambles and the fact he deserted us in order to top up his tan. I loathe his after match remarks. His tactics have been found out and his formations have to be seen to be believed. However, despite this, I just have this inkling we will be fine.
Dick Fearon
147 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:38:38
Hands up those who think Barca or Real would dominate the premier league as they have La Liga.
Aidy Dews
148 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:38:17
I know weÂ’re in a stinking run of form and people are crying out for a change, for us to maybe be more direct, but I agree with Bobby, itÂ’s pointless changing his ways or else it defeats the object of what heÂ’s trying to achieve on the playing side of things with our club.

He wants us to be this great footballing side and master his philosophy and it will take time with a team like ours as some of our players arenÂ’t great technically to execute it that well right now but it will take years of hard graft on the training ground and good player recruitment to get us to where he wants us to be. I still think heÂ’s the right man for the job. Last season was no fluke and in time weÂ’ll be back to that and even better, weÂ’ll look and even more assured side at what weÂ’re trying to do.

We just need to all stick together right now. The players have to start showing more for Martinez, the shirt and us fans and then in turn we all need to get behind the team and keep on showing weÂ’re there for them and weÂ’ll soon get out of this mess!

Tony Abrahams
149 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:38:37
You have made some very good points on this thread, Phil, but do you really see Everton playing what you call Tiki Taci at the minute?

I never watched any of the Newcastle match, but in the games before this I have just watched a team very low on confidence because they got booed by their own fans whilst winning.

When confidence goes, life becomes very hard and I think we really need a break at the minute. That said, your post at #110, is very good.

Tommy Coleman
150 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:50:27
Martinez is 100% right. We have to see this period out, nothing is going our way. Changing style now would be a disaster by creating doubt.
The critics on this page doing everything they can to take his words out of context.
We will bounce back, IÂ’ve got no doubt about it.
John Keating
151 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:47:39
Football is no different to Business or life itself
If you donÂ’t change or adapt to different circumstance you get royal fu..ed!
If Martinez does not change we can all admire his philosophy when at Elland Rd next season!
The man is a prick
Paul Andrews
152 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:51:11
We have been getting a lot of posts re Martinez time at the World Cup.
Sunning himself on the beach....watching the girls playing volleyball on Copacabana etc.
All blaming our poor form started with his time at the World Cup.

Can anyone tell me the dates we returned to pre season training and the date Martinez returned from the World Cup?
Brent Stephens
153 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:48:16
James #98 "Not one player in this current group of over privileged cowards has any of these traits and ultimately that will probably be what buries Martinez like it did for Moyes."

Unless he thinks he should adapt, if they canÂ’t?

Phil Walling
154 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:03:30
Hands up all those who think Martinez got the job because BK believed in the SpaniardÂ’s philosophy.

Not too many of us, I bet. No, he got the gig because he was handy, had won the Cup and HAD BEATEN EVERTON on the way !

So make a note of any lower end manager who turns us over - starting with Brucie tomorrow.

Mick MacManus
155 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:03:25
Managers are always stubborn in their approach. I wouldnÂ’t expect them to change and that includes Martinez as he said himself. There was no slow transition in playing style when he assumed the reigns last season. It was straight into his style of playing. The defensive frailties were very evident throughout last season from the off. They were masked as we were just lucky that the opposition missed many chances that wouldnÂ’t have been conceded under MoyesÂ’s tenure.

The problem with us is in lack of penetration in the final third compounded by Martinez trying to fit in too many similar players in and around the supporting striker role with those losing out in their best position pushed out to the wings where they are less effective. There may be a case for putting Kone and Lukaku up front together to see if they can form a partnership. Barry isnÂ’t performing this year and should be dropped in favour of Besic.

Raymond Fox
156 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:46:43
Phil, you go on about Â’fannying aroundÂ’ at the back, it worked last season we scored 61 goals which was 6th most in the Prem.
This season weÂ’ve scored 29 for 7th place at the moment, so we canÂ’t complain that were not scoring enough.

It could be argued that weÂ’re committing too many players forward to score, but this season we have had the defenders in place most of the time but they have defended like amateurs! Central defenders such as Jags and Distin have been the biggest culprits.

James Stewart
159 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:19:21
Here is a opta stat that must drive Lukaku mad.

Everton have made fewer crosses than any other side this season (245)

Pathetic.

Paul Tran
160 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:39:26
IÂ’m not sure weÂ’re that far apart, Phil. IÂ’ve never been a fan of pointless passing. IÂ’d like a combination of the intensity of MoyesÂ’s teams at their best with better ball retention. At the moment we have neither.

Like a lot of modern day managers, Martinez trots out meaningless stats to cover up poor results. He didnÂ’t do it so much last season in our winning spells.

IÂ’m not sure you have to be as good as Barcelona to keep the ball better and still be effective. What people forget about Barca was the quality of movement off the ball and how hard they worked to get it back. ThatÂ’s got nothing to do with tactics, thatÂ’s desire.

Your quote from Wenger is quite telling. If itÂ’s in context and still applicable, thatÂ’s a big concern.

Other than the appalling fitness issues, I still canÂ’t understand why last season we defended well, kept the ball well, created chances and scored lots of goals, but this season weÂ’re doing none of that.

Either Martinez will pull through this or we can look forward to some juicy stories and quotes in the near future.

One thing IÂ’d like to know from your Wigan connections, Phil, is whether there were any differences in the years Martinez escaped relegation to the year they dropped?

Phil Walling
161 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:13:19
Raymond, as you should know, every season sees a new start. The manager changes, key players move on (or, in our case, secure cosy long term contracts), players just get past it, are out of form, or get injured.

And it’s not just what happens at Everton. Other clubs adapt, change personnel and tactics – even have better luck with refs.

Perhaps the curse of the Europa has struck – who knows? But, whatever, each season is a new ballgame and history will reflect such – even our greatest side ever finished 14th the year after winning the league (and it got worse the following season!)

So donÂ’t give us Â’it was alright last yearÂ’. Focus on the here and now!

Jimmy-Ã…ge Sørheim
162 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:28:08
No wonder Weir and Stubbs have left, and not been replaced by other defensive coaches. RM says he fully disregards defensive training. Is it any wonder we are leaking goals, this is too stupid for a top manager, he effectively is nothing more than a naive idiot.
Ray Roche
163 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:23:07
Paul Andrews #152

Paul, the fact that Martinez was at the World Cup shouldnÂ’t make a difference, he spotted Besic there so you could argue that his time was well spent. No, the problem was, and I realise IÂ’m repeating myself here, that the quality of opposition for pre-season, the fitness levels both then and now, and players being given too long to "recover" from the few games they played in Brazil all add up to our present predicament. I hate using the "manager speak" crap that companies spout nowadays but the saying "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail" has never been more apt.

This, along with MartinezÂ’s intransigence, his stubborn refusal to freshen up his style now other teams are wise to it, his not making the best of some fine players, and the astonishing lack of confidence that is apparent in our team, all point to our current position. I wouldnÂ’t have any confidence to get a win, at home, against any Premier League team right now.

Kelvin Thomas
164 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:24:41
Everybody was over the moon with the style last season. Results are poor of late performances have also been poor. Is the style of play to blame for this?

Personally I feel its more to do with:
1. Howard: returning from the world cup as a hero to costing us points on regular basis.
2. Coleman: niggling injuries has hampered his form
3. CBÂ’s have been woeful!
4. Baines misses Pienaar
5. McCarthy fitness issues
6. Gibson proving he isnÂ’t available and never will be to give adequate cover when needed
7. McGeady is well below par, and Atsu hasnÂ’t stepped up to the plate
8. Mirallas has missed too many games
9. Injury to Barkley was a massive blow
10. LukakuÂ’s early season fitness issues
11. Injuries to every fringe player
12. Oviedo and Kone still not 100% match fit
13. Very poor refereeing decisions

In my opinion, the above list is more to do with our current predicament than RMÂ’s playing style!

Mike Powell
165 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:25:40
I’ve had enough of this buffoon. When he gets us relegated, will you still be backing him? I will not be going to any more games this season while he is in charge. It gets me depressed watching them. I would love him to turn things round but can not see it – he is too stubborn.
Darren Hind
166 Posted 31/12/2014 at 13:41:57
Teddy Bertin

Unlike your good self, the post on here didn’t actually make me physically sick, but I must admit several – especially yours and the fawning Paul Andrews – made me shake my head in despair and utter disbelief.

Where do you guys get off slagging the Evertonians Off?

I was amongst the thousands of Evertonians who spent an entire day travelling down to Southampton, not only did it cost them a fortune, most of them would have pissed their wives and their girlfriend off big time for fucking off right in the run up to the holiday.

What Martinez served up with his half-witted tactics did not fall short of a savage kick in the bollocks for every single one of them. The shite we witnessed was the ultimate insult... at least I thought it was.

A week or so later, these loyal-to-the-bone supporters were dealt another kick in the bollocks from Martinez when they travelled up to Newcastle (a thousand miles in two games), only to witness an equally inept performance and once again be subject to the managerÂ’s idiotic excuses as they travelled home. It was the ultimate insult... at least I thought it was.

Smell the coffee... We haven’t just gone on a bad run – we are stinking grounds out up and down the country. The Goodison faithful have had their patience stretched to the limit, all season.

When I read MartinezÂ’s latest statement I thought I was seeing things. Not a hint of an apology, just the latest round of inane babble. It was the ultimate insult... at least I thought it was.

I have not called for this manager to be removed – he got us into this shit and it’s up to him to get us out – but my toes have curled when I have read some of the piss-weak excuses offered by the acolytes and the sycophants desperately trying to blame everything on anybody other than their hero... but to now point the finger at loyal Evertonians???

To compare us to the spoilt brats at The Emirates... or deluded Kopites... now that IS the ultimate insult

Do you realise how much these people spend? How much they sacrifice? How much disappointment the have to endure? I have never personally booed in my life, but I hope every single Evertonian at Hull letÂ’s Martinez have it with both barrels for this latest round of utter garbage


Raymond Fox
167 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:30:42
Come on, Phil, youÂ’re cherry-picking my post, I also said weÂ’ve scored 29 goals at this half-way point which is as near as dam it the same as last season.

ThereÂ’s only 6 teams scored more than us and 4 of them by not much.

So my point, which youÂ’ve danced round is that tippy tappy doesnÂ’t appear to have affected our ability to score!

John Daley
168 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:39:16
"What do you expect Martinez to do? Come out and against his character say that the players are shite and Bill better get his wallet out? ThatÂ’s not his style."

Surely, any manager worth his salt has to be prepared to adapt his methodology/style if the current strategy is repeatedly failing to get the best out of his squad? These players have had nothing but praise and superlatives showered upon them since Martinez first set foot through the door.

Initially, it was a refreshing change and there was sound reasoning behind it. For years this group of players plied their trade under a man who made them believe they were plucky underdogs capable of getting a few good digs in from time to time but lacking the extra class needed to become a true contender. Martinez came in and made it clear he thought Everton should rightfully be fighting it out for a place in the top four and the squad of players currently at the club had a realistic chance of doing exactly that. It was all about shedding an inherent inferiority complex.

However, to persist with such praise when the players in question have singularly failed to put in shifts anywhere near deserving of such plaudits, can only lead to a gradual creeping in of lowered standards or, even worse, misplaced delusions of grandeur.

He doesnÂ’t have to do a complete 180 and come out and slate individuals, but he certainly can make it clear that current performances and results have fallen far short of what Evertonians have become accustomed to and, as such, improvement is needed right across the board. Calling for renewed effort, focus and fight during a rough patch is a long way from ripping into someone or pointing the finger.

He was partway there when he recently decried results and sloppy defending, but to then insist that the performances as a whole have warranted more and have been pleasing, was not only myopic but also insincere on a scale not seen since Ian Krankie stooped down at the altar and whispered to his soon to be wife Â’Wee JimmyÂ’ that he was the most beautiful bride in the world.

IÂ’d also love to know who Roberto is referring to when he mentions the steadying influence of Â’the senior headsÂ’ who will step up to take responsibility with their Â’leadershipÂ’ qualities and air of Â’calmnessÂ’? Distin? Howard? Jagielka? Osman? Pienaar? All proven panic merchants when put under any real pressure. Repeated fuck upÂ’s by the first three are a big part of the reason why things started heading downhill so rapidly in the first place.

Now theyÂ’re supposed to be viewed as an inspiration to others? The only worse example of how to keep your head screwed on during a time of crisis would be that cybernetic nonce out of Star Wars who got his noggin whacked on back-to-front by a whiny bollocks spouting Wookie with a big fucking spanner.

Mike Gwyer
169 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:07:20
Tommy Coleman #150.

I seriously hope so because personally I donÂ’t give a fuck who manages Everton from the Queen to Pep Guardiola; managers come and go but we live our lives supporting this wonderful football team.

What RM may view as self-portraying football with a big RM stamp of quality, which he loves the media to see, brings many unknown changes to the lives of every Evertonian. Good or bad we take the shite or wear the smiles accordingly.

RM can fuck off to a new club whenever he wants – we are here forever.

Tommy Coleman
170 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:40:59
Kelvin Thomas - thanks, I was preparing such a response.

ItÂ’s as if going 4-4-2 with a big man knocking it down to the little man would solve everything.

Kelvin Thomas
171 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:06:54
Exactly Tommy. Changing the system would not guarantee the change in the amount of individual errors most of our key players have been making.

Neither will it change our injury list/record. Every single player except for Besic and McGeady have been injured. Some have suffered several setbacks!!

John Hughes
173 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:14:22
Bloody Hell, Mike Gwyer – well said, son... I never really thought about it with such clarity.

While IÂ’m at it, Happy New Year to all fellow blues and letÂ’s hope better days are around the corner!

Max Wilson
174 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:05:53
I do love these debates Toffee mates. So many good points made, aspects one hadÂ’nt thought of. We have a perfect right to critiscise because itÂ’s our money as supporters that finances the club and a lot of us have spent yonks doing it (since 1961 in my case when I met Dixie in Margaret WhartonÂ’s kitchen). We do miss the essentials sometimes though. No-one is complaining about last season. This season Roberto has made some huge errors. His management of the pre-season preparation was appalling, and then he failed to address our ageing defence, which has subsequently leaked goals -31 to date, we shipped 39 the whole of last season. Then some of his new players- particularly Atsu and McGeady, have been fairly useless. All the rest of what has happened one could put down to the normal ups and downs in a highly demanding PL . I find myself disagreeing when we get annoyed with
Luke and EtoÂ’o who donÂ’t get enough decent ball this season. Sorry if that offends. But we have the right to speak our minds.
Phil Walling
176 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:53:34
Raymond @ 167; OK, we can throw stats at each other all day but it serves little purpose. The only one that counts is that we have won a mere 5 matches this season out of 19 played !

Sure, we may be the PremÂ’s seventh highest scorers but only QPR have conceded more than our 31 goals. Is attack the managerÂ’s only concern/responsibility these days, then?

In his time at Wigan, his teams conceded an average of 69 goals per season - more than enough to see most teams relegated and we are track for a similar total here !

Of course, we have lost only 8 of those 19 games so far and 16 defeats by seasonÂ’s end would be an unusually low number for relegation victims. And I know that most teams have avoided the drop with 42 points but - and itÂ’s a big BUT - all this supposes we can replicate our first half performance.

How we are performing at present tells me thatÂ’s a big ask !

Ste Traverse
177 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:01:49
" I donÂ’t work on having a good defensive record to win things"

That sentence says it all for me. Even the Â’COYBÂ’ deluded happy clappers should be woken from their slumber at that soundbite.

All top managers build their teams from a strong defence. Yet this bloke thinks he can do it a different way?

Sid Logan
179 Posted 31/12/2014 at 14:42:44
So apparently Martinez wonÂ’t be deterred from continuing his attack minded play. Is this the attacking play that produces 2 or 3 shots on goals in a whole game if weÂ’re lucky.

IÂ’ve sat through halves this season and not seen a single shot on goal. Regardless of whether your pro or anti Martinez or for or against Â’possessionÂ’ football you have to be concerned at his inability to see the reality of our performances this term.

My view is that Martinez has 2-3 games to produce a win - other wise itÂ’s adios!

Ant Summers
180 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:32:27
If we were playing football and scoring goals like Newcastle were under Kevin Keagan, IÂ’m sure we would all accept RMÂ’s comments on his defensive style. However, we are a million miles away from that attacking football style, so for me his statement on winning things by not being over defensive does not hold water.
Bob Heyward
181 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:27:35
Once again, Phil oversimplifies. Roberto got appointed because of one game... sheesh. You really think that? What a bizarre analysis.
Steavey Buckley
182 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:33:46
Everton conceding 3 goals at Newcastle and 1 against Stoke, were not caused by EvertonÂ’s passing game, but by individual errors. That canÂ’t be erased by simply practising defensive play, but by the individuals taking more care how they control the ball, how they pass the ball, how they tackle and being more aware of when the opposition are inside EvertonÂ’s penalty area.

EvertonÂ’s lack of passing game won them nothing under Moyes, because players were quite happy to hoof the ball forward (that allowed the opposition to take control of the ball) rather than develop their passing skills, when under pressure from opposing forwards.

Tony Abrahams
183 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:38:13
IÂ’m sure you have told us before that the people of Wigan had long known that Martinez was on his way to Everton, months before it was confirmed? Phil (#154). So why carry on writing your shite "I told you so"s when you now think Kenwright picked him because he won the cup?

DoesnÂ’t really matter, except when you start saying that we have already lost tomorrow????? If you donÂ’t like Martinez, thatÂ’s fine, but to accept defeat against Hull City before a ball has been kicked really does tell me that you have been living in Wigan for way too long.

IÂ’m too long in the tooth to go tomorrow, but I might change my mind around midnight, because never fucking mind Martinez, My Team Everton, need people to get behind them right now!

Ray Roche
184 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:50:55
Steavey, do you not think that the "individual errors" are caused by defenders attempting to play the sort of game that is alien to them? Against Newcastle we witnessed Baines pass to McGeady who then lost possession and we conceded again. An "individual error", caused by a player going against his instinct to clear his lines and doing what his manager keeps insisting on — possession football.

Our defenders, particularly Distin and Jags, are not comfortable with the ball. Anyone can see that and to watch them clumsily passing sideways each game until opposition pressure sees them pass back to Howard who then hoofs it forward is little short of embarrassing. It is also the easiest style to combat.

The only central defenders comfortable with the ball at their feet are Alcaraz and Stones. Better defenders might see Howard get less criticism on here.

As for Moyes, we played some excellent football under him in his last two seasons.

John Malone
186 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:03:15
IÂ’ll get it in early: IÂ’m dreading West Ham coming to Goodison next Tuesday; Big Sam will piss all over our "pass it from the back" tactics with a high press then continue to hammer fast and high balls into Alcaraz, Distin, & Robles.

With fire power we have in Mirallas, Naismith, Kone, Lukaku, Eto’o, & Barkley we should be blowing teams away playing down the channels and one- and two-touch play and flinging balls into the box. Our current tactics do not suit any of our players — the quicker Martinez identifies this, the better!

Norman Merrill
187 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:15:22
Darren Hind, (166)
Well put mate,
Paul Graney
188 Posted 31/12/2014 at 15:36:37
Great post, Darren Hind (#166).

When Bobby came in, he was in a greater position than any incoming Everton manager for more years than I care to mention due to the fact that Moyes left for Manure and we were in a position of strength, ie, a decent squad and on a better financial footing than for many years. I never wanted him in the first place and couldnÂ’t understand why we would appoint a manager that had just got a team relegated but, as a loyal Evertonian, he would get my support.

The first thing that registered doubts were in my opinion lazy signings from a certain club: Robles, Alcaraz, Kone and McCarthy; the loan signings of Barry and Lukaku on deadline day... plus Deulofeu provided a timely boost. When the season started, the style of play was at times frustrating yet results and performances picked up but the rot set in towards the end of the season. The Shite hit us for four, as did Arsenal, and defeats latterly against Crystal Palace, Southampton and Man City.

We ended with record points for the season, in my opinion due to a change of style, which caught teams by surprise; key players in form, not too many injuries, and a fair amount of Lady Luck, ie, we played Swansea, Cardiff and Villa all at home in a 3 week period and got 9 points when we could have lost all 3 on balance of play.

Fast forward to this pre-season and our Bobby is at the World Cup for ESPN, I believe... hence began our problems of a shambolic pre-season which I believe is a big part of our poor season thus far. He said we need 6 or 7 players for this season; we added Besic and Galloway plus signed Barry on a 3-year contract – far too long and spent 㿈 Million on a forward who canÂ’t control a ball, canÂ’t head a ball, and canÂ’t pass it 5 yards... admittedly he had a good season but to waste the bulk of our budget on him to me was gross misjudgement. And donÂ’t give me this bull heÂ’s only young and will get better he ainÂ’t good enough but, having said that, we donÂ’t exactly play to his strengths.

So my summary is that a better preseason should have been organised and, from a position of strength from last season, I was expecting 4 or 5 quality signings to improve what was already a decent squad – more down to Moyes than Bobby, in my opinion, and I wasn’t his biggest fan.

To be a good manager you have to have a ruthless streak so a culling of the older players should also have been done, ie, Hibbert, Osman, Distin, & Pienaar... thanks for your years of good service but time to move on and make room for a more youthful calibre of player – not given extended contracts along with Eto’o and Barry which has made us the oldest squad in the Premier League. hence the lacklustre performances we have seen this season.

Back to tomorrow where, in my opinion, we will beat Hull. To all, have a good night and hopefully things will improve next year.

Conor McCourt
189 Posted 31/12/2014 at 11:01:38
Really great post, James Martin, which I think is a fair analysis of both managers.

I also want to make the point that a lot of our fans are criticizing Roberto for the age of the squad and giving senior players long contracts. Some think this is an implication of not giving youth a chance.

For me this is not a worrying trend and it just outlines what James is talking about in terms of different approaches.

Moyes always had a group of 14 or 15 players he trusted and believed the best way of success for the club was to have a small squad but develop a collective team spirit that none of the big clubs could have. This would allow us to compete.

Martinez takes a different approach and feels that our system and ability to prevent better squads by starving them of the ball is his way of challenging. He feels we need a squad of 22 to realistically compete over the whole season.

It is my opinion and his selection proves that Hibbert, Osman and Alcaraz will not be first choices and are in the squad to come in and help the team when needed.

If you look at how many young players he has brought into the team including Lukaku, McCarthy, Dellboy, Atsu, Barkley, Stones, Browning, Besic, Robles and Garbutt in only 18 months and has a number of youngsters bought for the future then its clear youth are paramount to his project.

We havenÂ’t got the money to have a squad like Man CityÂ’s and Martinez wants to use the experience of our senior players mixed with the energy of our younger players until we can produce a 22-man squad of real quality over the next 3 or 4 years. IÂ’m sure players like Distin and Pienaar will be gone at the end of the season and each year one or two will be phased out when others of superior quality emerge.

I was really impressed by his press conference yesterday and I hope the players are as impressive tomorrow.

Sid Logan
190 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:27:09
Darren #166

Very well put. Sums up what most match going Evertomians feeL right now!

Some honest recognition of the reality of our situation by Martinez would engender some degree of hope which the fantasy comments he making at present certainly donÂ’t!

Aidy Dews
191 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:16:45
People keep harping on about his comment of "I donÂ’t work on a good defensive record to win things" and Martinez not having a "plan B" etc, etc, but do the top teams like Juve, Barca, Real Madrid or Bayern have a plan B?

No they donÂ’t. They all have very good players and stick to a certain system and are very good at what they set out to do from game to game and thatÂ’s exactly what Martinez is trying to implicate at us!

Difference is we donÂ’t have the quality or finances to be able to achieve as quicker results or standards as these mentioned clubs.

Going back to the phrase Martinez uses in the article, where he says he doesnÂ’t work on a good defensive record to win things, do people seriously think Guardiaola does then at Bayern? Did he do the same at Barca? Highly unlikely. What he did was make em so good and comfortable on the ball, and so eager and hungry to get it back when theyÂ’d lost it, that it made it so hard for teams to actually get at em and score goals or beat em! Yes, his great Barca side did concede goals, as does his Bayern team but he made them so good with the ball and so persistent off it that teams just couldnÂ’t live with them and more often tan not, couldnÂ’t beat em, and I not for one minute saying Martinez is going to get us that way but in terms of philosophy and style, thatÂ’s the route heÂ’s taking, especially with ball retention. IÂ’d like him to have us closing down like packs of wolves but IÂ’m yet to see that but he wants us to be so good on the ball that weÂ’ll dominate games, create chances and in turn, keep the opposition at bay for large parts of the game which will lessen the chance of goals against. ThatÂ’s his thinking in all this I believe.

But with our limited finances and a lack of quality in technical, ability it will take us a number of years to master what heÂ’s trying to do at Everton. Look at Swansea, itÂ’s about 7, 8 or 9 years ago since Martinez started out his revolution there and to this day there not the finished article but they are a side whoÂ’s more efficient and comfortable on the ball than we are and year by year, adding more quality to there ranks, they are getting better and IÂ’d like to think weÂ’ll follow suit but at a quicker pace and be better than they are!

DonÂ’t forget aswell, are league is a different kettle of fish compared to the likes of La Liga, the Bundesliga and Seria A, not all teams try and have a go and play and do sit back in numbers and get in your face and donÂ’t give up space easily which makes the game were trying to play much harder to crack.

But in time, after a few transfer windows of getting his types of players in, IÂ’m sure Martinez will suss it out with us. Last season was a little insight of how things can be for us in the future!

Colin Grierson
192 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:12:02
If the style of play he wonÂ’t deviate from is the slow sideways and backward possession model then we are indeed fucked. If (as I hope) it is quick paced progressive possession football that some of the players are not up to then we need to get rid of anyone who canÂ’t pass or control the ball.
Kieran Riding
193 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:44:00
Darren #166
Super stuff.
Sean Kelly
194 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:35:08
I nominate Harold as the voice of reason on this site. Well said Harold. We all hope for a turn around but fear Martinez is not capable. He wonÂ’t change his methods but if things really start to go pear shaped we can change our manager.

Best wishes to all on here and letÂ’s hope we have a 2015 that brings us something to cheer about. Maybe a mid table finish with some silverware.

Derek McMonagle
195 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:52:06
ItÂ’s a great pity that Premier League managers donÂ’t go out on loan to lower division clubs to learn the basics.
David Harrison
196 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:39:26
"IÂ’ve been in this situation too many times". Yes Roberto thatÂ’s whatÂ’s worrying a lot of us. Especially when you appear not to give a shit about tightening up defensively, pay no attention to percentages and seem to be in denial about how poor we really look at the moment in all parts of the team.

Some good posts on both sides of the fence here but have to admit that after 46 years of supporting Everton I am feeling very uneasy about our current situation. We seem to be that club thatÂ’s dropping like a stone while being told that weÂ’re too good to go down. Believe me on current form weÂ’re not. IÂ’m going to Hull tomorrow but I expect to be watching through my fingers...

Paul Tran
197 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:50:43
Good shout re fan criticism of critical fans, Darren.

In my first season, 1970-71, the cushions regularly rained on our Champions in a dismal season. I asked my Dad why they were throwing cushions and one bloke just shouted Â’Because theyÂ’re the Champions and theyÂ’re playing like fucking amateurs!Â’

Since then, weÂ’ve had a healthy equal mix of fervent support and strong criticism, which to me is part and parcel of being an Evertonian.

ItÂ’s easy up here in the Highlands watching on the internet, I can go for a piss, drink, or switch off when I want to in a warm room. Only when I managed to get to the Hull game did I remember the cost, time and effort involved in watching a dreary game. Still loved it though!

The paying critics have every right to their opinion.

Jonny Flynn
198 Posted 31/12/2014 at 17:00:04
Yes, Roberto has an awful lot to answer for... we are 16 points worse off than this time last year. Pre-season was a shambles and we are paying the price for it.

In his defence lots of us saw it coming once we were in the Europa League. Injuries meant we couldnÂ’t freshen things up as weÂ’d like. Turn a couple of Sunday losses to wins after our Europe League games and things wouldnÂ’t look quite as bad.

You need to change something quick, Roberto, before itÂ’s too late. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Kevin Tully
199 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:53:48
Whatever your views on Martinez, I think we can all agree on one thing - itÂ’s clear some senior Everton players are not comfortable with his Â’philosophy.Â’

I really cannot see us going on a winning run like last season. Can anyone on here tell me how we are going to get out of this current slump? IÂ’d be shocked if we won our next two games, thatÂ’s how far weÂ’ve fallen.

So, to ask them to continue playing this way, no matter what the circumstances, will only lead to one outcome... the manager will lose his job.

Jason Heng
200 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:34:07
Maybe getting Irvine back will resolve some issues.
Jamie Crowley
201 Posted 31/12/2014 at 17:13:39
Lord that was long reading this thread - but excellent. So many good points on both sides of the debate.

IÂ’m behind Roberto. I wanted him as manager a year in front of when he was named when it seemed Moyes may be on the way out.

He definitely is not Jesus Christ and has made many questionable decisions, errors, substitutions, et al; but...

I appreciate and admire his footballing philosophies. He deserves more time as many have said before - trying to change the Club from top to bottom with its approach, ethos, etc.

This is a difficult time to be sure. Roberto will play the game his way come hell or high water it is apparent. I relish this effort. If it works Everton - a team playing with pennies comparatively to the big boys - will be the envy of football fans across the globe. It reminds me of that club in Germany under Klopp who hit the heights and have also experienced severe valleys. There are heights we can reach with this manager. We have to ride out the lows and get behind the manager.

The road to heaven isnÂ’t rosy and paved with gold. There are challenges, pitfalls, valleys, etc. on the way.

Take your mind back to last year. SO beautiful at times. Such a joy to watch Everton play fantastic football. I truly believe Roberto can get us back there.

Just give the guy your support and three years. If RobertoÂ’s got it wrong then we will know, and the inevitable change will occur for the good of the Club.

Based upon that feeling we had last year, the uplifting style of play and the chase for 4th, donÂ’t we at least owe it to OURSELVES and no one else to let the man who brought us 72 points and smiles on our faces the time to implement fully his philosophy?

ItÂ’s not going to be easy, but the golden goose on the other side of the rainbow makes me want to see this through.

IÂ’m gonna go yell at someone now as I feel way too "fluffy".

Joe Kaliszczak
202 Posted 31/12/2014 at 17:21:16
Roberto can say what he wants! I used to do it with my bosses; at the end of the day, it is results that matter: just the three following points:

1) Chelsea, Man City and Southampton pass the ball beautifully, but they also mix it with John Terry-like hoofs, Joe Hart smashing it upfield etc - itÂ’s called flexibility.

2) Ross Barkley had one of his best games against QPR (albeit, they have the only 100% away losses in the top 7 English leagues) in his best position, a centre-mid position. The next two games against Southampton and Stoke, he was played out of position out wide; then Martinez drops him for the Newcastle game. Classic mismanagement!

3) Martinez is patronising and insulting to us, the fans; he continues to talk drivel, after performances that have been disjointed. I honestly think he hasnÂ’t got a clue what heÂ’s doing. As an Evertonian, I want us to win tomorrow, but deep down know weÂ’re going to lose, mainly because of RobertoÂ’s fantasy management!

Tony Hill
203 Posted 31/12/2014 at 17:31:53
Conor 191, the problem is that he seems to regard the core of his side as the arthritic 30 year olds. Browning had a fine cameo in the Derby but that was it in the PL, Atsu was hardly seen, Besic (who is a youngster) has been messed about once he was belatedly chosen, Barkley has been played out of position, Garbutt has been brought in too late as well, and Lukaku has had no service. Not a dazzling use of our young talent in my opinion.

The manager has looked to the senior players as his power base but has done so in a servile way and now it looks as though at least some of them are turning on him. He needs to become more ruthless and independent if he is going to survive.

Pete Owen
204 Posted 31/12/2014 at 17:42:01
Teddy @19
Finally! someone who knows the score, glad you donÂ’t subscribe to this tabloid "weÂ’re not winning games so blame everyone and sack the lot" mentality that 95% of this siteÂ’s readers seem to adhere to.

THINK REALISTICALLY PEOPLE!

Colin Glassar
205 Posted 31/12/2014 at 17:58:06
IÂ’m still backing Roberto. I still have faith in him. DonÂ’t ask me why I just do.
Ged Simpson
206 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:04:07
Me too Colin, but just...
Colin Glassar
207 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:09:37
I said earlier on here, or on another thread, Ged that this slump must be like a slap in the face for him. I just hope he wakes up and reacts. The honeymoon is well and truly over. Now itÂ’s time for him to roll up his sleeves and fix this.
IÂ’m off to get slightly hammered. A happy new year to all of you. Remember, we are Everton.
Raymond Fox
208 Posted 31/12/2014 at 17:07:34
Phil 177, your again dodging the question about how many goals were scoring even though your always complaining our build up is slow.
The point IÂ’m making is that we are not bad in the goal scoring department, the possession football appears to be producing sufficient goals, have a good look at the last 2 Prem League tables in detail.

The obvious conclusion is we are conceding far too many goals this season with its fair to say with the same players.
The two reasons for me are that our 2 regular centre backs have been total rubbish, closely followed by Coleman and Baines in their defensive duties and also teams have learned that the best way to beat us is to hit us on the break once we have lost the ball in attack.
Add to that our aged players are another year older and some have gone past their sell by date.

Also which hardly gets a mention, little old Everton are getting screwed each week by refs, we should have been playing against 10 men in the last 2 games, oh and a very dodgy penalty to boot, potentially 6pts up the chute there.
Chelsea get an apology because the ref gave a wrong decision, what do we get Cisse banned for 3 games, guess who they play in next 2 League games, Burnley and Leicester ! HeÂ’ll be back in the team when they play Chelsea, thatÂ’s rubbing salt into the wound not justice.

Lets not think that this game tomorrow is going to be easy either, their crowd will be baying for blood, their players are going to be right up for it and were away so a good chance another homer ref will give us nothing!
Hull got beat last week but they missed lots of easy chances, guess what!

Tony Hill
209 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:15:22
Colin G 207, I agree and for the same reason, or lack of reason. But I understand why such sentiments annoy the critics.

Happy 2015 to all. A trophy year??

Paul Thompson
210 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:08:32
IÂ’ve been on the other side of the world on business for over a month so have missed everything but the (infrequent) Â’highlightsÂ’. The thing is that the problems arenÂ’t new. We have been poor from pre-season onwards and now confidence is demonstrably at a very low ebb. I would like to believe that Martinez can turn it around, but he has not been able to address the obvious defects in our play so far. ThereÂ’s too much emphasis from him on Â’styleÂ’. Tactics, the transfer market, team selection, motivating players - these and other things matter just as much. January will bring huge challenges in all these respects, In over 50 years of supporting the Blues, IÂ’ve never booed and wonÂ’t start now. But if things donÂ’t turn around in January, either Roberto will be gone or the supporters will.
Phil Walling
211 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:17:37
Raymond, IÂ’m dodging nothing. Martinez has said that he does not send out his teams to defend but to score more goals than the opposition. Keegan tried the same philosophy and it failed.

IsnÂ’t Martinez failing also ?

Ray Roche
212 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:18:31
Referee tomorrow? Kevin Bastard Friend.
Bill Gall
213 Posted 31/12/2014 at 17:32:27
One of the comments he has made ---- When I was a young manager starting out made me laugh. This is not a manager with over 20 years experience. He spent 2 years in the championship getting Swansea promoted to the premiership.He spent 4 years with Wigan in the premiership the first 3 fighting relagation and the 4th getting relegated. In his 4th year he won the F.A.Cup beating Man City and the only other premier team they faced in the competition Everton and this in my opinion was why he was hired.

Mr Martinez is now in his 8th season as a manager and unless you want to say winning the F.A.cup in the same season as being relegated was successful and I donÂ’t, he has only produced 2 successful seasons -1 getting Swansea promoted into thr premiership and last season at Everton.

Getting relegated was the reason that winning the F.A.cup was not what I will call successful as yes it is a great day out if you win but if you get relegated unless you are able to gain promotion the following season with the help of the parachute payments you will be facing years of financial ruin.

So to the people saying that we must give him a chance to keep on with his playing style or philosophy realise that (a) over the past 8 seasons it has only been successful twice 1 in the championship and 1 in the premier .(B) As it it is not proving successful with the present squad of players please remember that Everton do not have the finances to overhaul the majority of the squad to bring in the type of players he wants without selling some of our better younger players as for the the older players we need to change we wiil not get a lot for them.

Nick West
214 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:23:24
IÂ’m with Teddy. ThereÂ’s a lotta crap written on this site. The definition of a fan might be someone who knows their football and supports their team. Teams go through rough patches. If itÂ’s your team - support them. ThatÂ’s what you supposed to do. Not whinge like little kids every five minutes. Martinez has earned our respect - now get behind him. COYB.
Dean Adams
215 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:18:30
So we have had the least crosses this season in the premier league. That stat absolutely shows where we are going wrong. Our full backs, both Baines and Coleman have been our best attacking outlet for several years, yet this season they have hardly got forward. Most of our play is slow. We win the ball pass it forward to the half way line and then dilly-dally allowing all the opposition players to get back. Only Mirallas and Ross have burst through and carried the ball forward, but often the final pass is behind the man, again slowing us down. Very basic mistakes.

We need to bring in someone to work on our defensive problems before they become too severe. We also need to work on our corners. They are free attempts on goal which would help build confidence in our play. Every little aspect helps, yet Bobby does not want to tackle these issues. Strange philosophy he is perpetuating, when it fails to utilise the basic fabric of the game.

Callum McNab
216 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:08:23
Jimmy Kelly, well said. If there were signs of improvement then you could say things will turn around. But weÂ’re getting beat week in week out by teams that arenÂ’t particularly good themselves. The team looks all over the place, strikers who look like they couldnÂ’t give a crap, a defence where you know are going to mess up constantly and have no belief in themselves (never mind what we think) and two goalkeepers who should be working in a pantomime never mind the Premier League. And a manager who has quite clearly erased what he did with Wigan (with the same style of football and tactics may I add) well and truly from his mind.

We all got carried away with what happened last season, but if we are all honest the cracks were starting to show towards the end of last season, never mind this. The outcome of it is we made Bobby out as though he was the new Messiah. I hope to God Bobby and the team can turn this around as nobody is getting any enjoyment out of having to critisize the team, but if this rubbish keeps happening like it has for sometime now, at what point do you say enough is enough? Or more worrying will we have enough time to put it right. I was there for the Wimbledon game and the Coventry and it was two of the worst days of supporting my beloved club ( even though we dodged relegation there was nothing to celebrate in my opinion) I have ever had to go through.

Dean Adams
217 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:33:15
Bill, did Bobby not get Swansea promoted from league 1, leaving the promotion to the premier league to his disciple, Brendan Rogers who joined when Souza was sacked. Makes his record that bit less impressive doesÂ’nt it.
Paul Tran
218 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:40:52
Phil, never mind the stats, whatÂ’s the deal with the Wigan escape years? What made them escape?

If I was a real mad optimist IÂ’d say heÂ’s had three successful relegation battles and one failure.

I donÂ’t think heÂ’ll need to use this experience but it would be good to get some insight.

Raymond Fox
219 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:30:59
Bill, if Jesus came down from above he would have stuggled to have kept Wigan up for long, the quality of the players on the field have just a little influence on the results donÂ’t you think.
City et al are not paying 40-50 million for players for fun.

Its no use kidding ourselves we are in the 2nd Div where buying players for big bucks are concerned, how the hell can expect our managers to win things.
Hope yes, expect no.

Andrew Rimmer
220 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:44:12
Yes, get behind your manager. Just give a little shout when itÂ’s really quiet at Goodison, (thereÂ’s plenty of opportunities)

I am a fan of Everton but alas also a fan of football and entertainment. I canÂ’t even clap the opposition scoring as I can see the goal coming like a joke from miranda from miles away.

Lee Gray
221 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:47:26
Darren Hind 166 You have NAILED it fella.
Phil Walling
222 Posted 31/12/2014 at 18:47:28
Paul, all I can find out is that he three times moved to a Â’back threeÂ’ and introduced wing backs. Twice it worked and once it didnÂ’t. Apparently, there has always been a suspicion that in 12/13 when they lost 20 games and conceded 73 goals his rotation policy indicated that he prioritised the FA Cup. Survivors Villa and Sunderland picked up some late surprise results which did for him.

As I said earlier, it is not just what Everton do that will determine our fate.

Colin Gee
223 Posted 31/12/2014 at 19:37:32
Ray #214.
Thanks for that.... So weÂ’re playing against 12 men again tomorrow.
James Richard
224 Posted 31/12/2014 at 19:48:41
I fully respect everyoneÂ’s opinion and am as frustrated as the next person. But I think the people gunning for his head are being a tad short sighted. Put pep guardila or whoever in charge and they will struggle with the oldest team in the league too. This league is too physical, quick, skillfull and ruthless for the oldest team in it.

Yes we have young players but they are injured like Stones and McCarthy. Last year was the best I have felt as a blue since I can remember. Yes itÂ’s a rough ride at the moment but do any of us really beleive we will go down? Really? I donÂ’t! I think we should give him the benifit of the doubt and see where we are next season?

No improvement and still middle table then yes, get rid. We have the team we just need to give the new manager some time to take us where we can go. Might be a bit too optimistic because itÂ’s new year but come on blues either way stick with the team. COYB

Bill Gall
225 Posted 31/12/2014 at 19:25:00
Dean--i stand corrected you are right and it certainly did not enhance his managerial performances.
Raymond #221 Yes I agree with you about the quality of the players at Wigan during Mr MartinezÂ’s time he was there. I also remember as well as his backroom staff he brought 4 of those players to Everton with him.

How about this quote from D Whelan the chairman of Wigan. When I announced that Martinez had been given permission to speak to Everton about their vacant managerial position, I gave it, as Martinez did not feel he was the man to lead Wigan back to the premiership.

Colin Glassar
226 Posted 31/12/2014 at 20:13:35
Because he realised that Wigan had gone as far as they could Bill? Wigan will eventually end up like Halifax, Aldershot, York, Chester, Wrexham etc.... once old peg leg departs.

HeÂ’s no mug is Roberto. He realised the only way is down for Wigan, not even David Copperfield, Dynamo and David Blaine together can save Wigan from oblivion.

Dick Fearon
227 Posted 31/12/2014 at 20:10:47
If his team at Wigan was so bad why has Martinez signed half of them for Everton. He is also rumoured to be chasing their second string keeper.

If those players were good for Everton how or why were they relegated? DonÂ’t suppose it was caused by the stupidity of their and now our manager.

Paul Tran
228 Posted 31/12/2014 at 20:27:09
Cheers Phil. Hints of worrying complacency in the relegated year!

LetÂ’s hope we do the job ourselves. I still see a mid-table finish. I hope a cup comes with it.

Happy New Year to all Blues and see you in 2015.

Conor McCourt
229 Posted 31/12/2014 at 19:29:59
Tony I disagree that the manager has been cowardly towards the youth.

Firstly he dropped Sylvan and the first time he had 4 centre backs available he played Stones and Jags while Distin didnÂ’t make the bench. This guy has cost us so many points but Roberto has no option but to play him. Its clear Roberto knows heÂ’s finished.

He also gave Browning 2 appearances at full back and he did well but if you have seen his performances at centre back for the 21Â’s you would see why he hasnÂ’t blooded him there in the 1st team.

Tony I am also getting sick of this poor Barkley scenario. This guy never got a kick under Moyes. Roberto not only blooded him but made him central to the team and gave him freedom in the hole to wreck havoc. He was tried for a few games wide this year when Mirallas was injured so the team needed him but not only was he poor he didnÂ’t even lift a leg. Roberto then played him in the position he has played most of his career and the lad was still shocking. He had 1 exciting game at home to the worst away team in the league and suddenly we are told that this is his best position. If anyone watched that game and seen how much Besic had to work to cover him and had we played a better side his defensive frailties would have been magnified as at Southampton.

Then there is this argument that he has messed about Besic. No even the player had said he wasnÂ’t up to the speed of the prem and Martinez has adopted the same policy to that of Dellboy where he didnÂ’t start challenging until December. Do you not remember some of Besic, early cameos? He was very bad. I have never rated Barry as a midfielder but last season he was immense and his partnership with McCarthy was central to our success. I agree that over the last month Besic is really pushing for a place but I guarantee not one other manager in the league would have dropped Barry for Besic in the first few months of this season for the above reasons.

I donÂ’t feel he lacks the ruthlessness to play the youngsters but its only down to injuries that some of them are able to keep their place. He dealt with Distin and Oviedo when he didnÂ’t like what he was seeing.

Some good debate on this thread but definitely worst post is that of Bill. It really annoys me when Wigan had the lowest wage bill and budget in the country and people say he was a failure. I see his successors are doing brilliantly.

He worked wonders there in keeping them up as Shaun Moloney for example only came as he wanted to play in the prem as Burnley who were in the relegation position in the championship had offered him better terms to join them. This is the hand that Roberto was dealt and not only that the DW pitch was awful so their home record was poor and they done better away from home on the better surfaces.

This cracks me up as its media driven poor information. I remember when Jol left Spurs in 6th and Ramos had a tough 1st 2 months because he couldnÂ’t adapt to the prem and Redknapp took them from 2nd bottom to about 8th in the league. He was heralded as some sort of messiah yet he took a team that finishes 6th the previous year to similar form to that of Jol. IÂ’m not saying he didnÂ’t do well but he didnÂ’t exactly take over Burnley and make them finish 6th.

Its the same on here with idiots wanting Pulis. This manager is great for keeping teams in the division but the amount of money he spent at Stoke on crap after crap to fit his style of play. He spent ٦ million on Palacios who played about 3 games for him and his transfer budget was much greater than ours every year with a similar or slightly reduced wage bill. Stoke never finished in the top half despite his resources and when the money dried up he left yet Hughes who was hasnÂ’t the same kudos has got them higher despite having his kitty severely restricted.

Some people need to wise up and realise that Swansea are where they are thanks to Roberto and Wigan achieved a feat that very few clubs with those resources will ever do again under his leadership.

Raymond Fox
230 Posted 31/12/2014 at 20:27:08
ItÂ’s a good and fair point Bill and Dick, McCarthy has proved his worth, KoneÂ’s a good squad player whoÂ’s had a bad injury, Alcaraz cost nothing to buy and was here as back up, Robles has lost his confidence and way after sitting on his backside for most of the time.
He knew them well, and apart from McCarthy where relatively cheap which was a factor in why he brought them to Everton I would think.

If he was in charge of a rich club he would have probably have been buying more up market.

Conor McCourt
231 Posted 31/12/2014 at 20:45:26
Bill, that quote was because RobertoÂ’s heart wouldnÂ’t have been in it as the sharks were circling for his signature. By the way this was the Dave Whelan that said he would be a top 3 coach in Europe.

We can all make up spin on quotes to suit our agendas but I will leave that to you.

Mark Taylor
232 Posted 31/12/2014 at 20:28:45
My biggest criticism of RM is signing a striker for 㿈m, a prodigious sum of money for a club of our financial wherewithal, and not to have worked out how to get the best out of him.
Bill Gall
233 Posted 31/12/2014 at 20:44:12
Colin # 228. Do not tell me you think that Martinez was like a rat deserting o sinking ship, He was responsible for Wigan being relegated and lots of other managers who have been relegated have stood by their clubs and have gained experience in doing it.

By refusing to stand by Wigan it shows that the man is to stubborn to admit to failure and that is what a lot of people are saying about him now,refusing to admit that at the moment his style is not working and seems to stubborn to change.

John Keating
234 Posted 31/12/2014 at 21:00:38
Nick 216
Martinez has earned fuck all! The only people who have earned respect are the supporters who live and die Blues! We canÂ’t escape this purgatory.

Martinez will one day piss off - hopefully sooner rather than later - and not give us a second thought. He deserves nothing until he treats us supporters with respects and stops talking shite.

Phil Walling
235 Posted 31/12/2014 at 20:22:23
Paul Tran; further to my earlier reply to your question re Martinez Â’escape planÂ’ at Wigan, I am indebted to my brother-in-law who has sent me this report from Chris AndersonÂ’s book Â’The Numbers GameÂ’ of WiganÂ’s 11/12 season.

"Martinez masterminded his sideÂ’s survival in 2012 by switching from their most common formation of 4-3-3 to a highly unorthodox 3-4-3 for the final third of the season. It worked.

Â’Â’MarinezÂ’s strategy relied on highly accurate long-range shooting, firing from distance - allowing his team to recover their defensive shape more easily - and persistence. He did not place any emphasis on corners - Wigan scored just one goal from a corner in the entire season - because it meant allowing his troops out of hiding and into open sight, leaving them vulnerable. Martinez was playing guerrilla football.

"He had his team lie in wait for their opponents and then punished them on the counter attack.

HIS TEAM WAS ADAPTABLE AND UNPREDICTABLE. With his neat jumpers and kind smile, Martinez looks a decent man. Underneath that veneer, though, beats the heart and mind of a natural insurgent shortly to be headquartered at Goodison Park."

So there you have it, he CAN be adaptable, after all. New hope, indeed.

Ian Linn
236 Posted 31/12/2014 at 21:17:53
"You win games by being very good at what you do"

Then we are obviously not very good at what we are doing at the moment.

I think it was Einstein who defined insanity as "repeatedly doing the same things and expecting different results"

sedit qui timuit ne non succederet.

Paul Tran
237 Posted 31/12/2014 at 21:23:28
Thanks again Phil. Really interesting stuff. I seem to remember commentators and friends alike talking in terms of WiganÂ’s annual resurgence and amazement that he kept them up as often as he did.

Of course this has little to do with the situation here, but a useful reminder that he did a bit more than lie down and get relegated. Time for some of that character to come out here methinks.

Peter Warren
239 Posted 31/12/2014 at 21:45:23
We are playing awful and itÂ’s so boring to watch at present. WeÂ’ve been average to shite all season.

But bloody hell some comments on here would think the guy doesnÂ’t have a brain. HeÂ’s a clever man who is up against it at present, clearly done internal unrest and also externally being criticised . He needs to show he is top dog.

I hate and donÂ’t understand how we donÂ’t press or pass / cross into the box currently from wide positions.

But I donÂ’t see Martinez as a fool . I didnÂ’t like any of our previous managers from 90s and including Moyes even when we got 4th. However IÂ’m the opposite with Martinez. I think heÂ’s class and whilst the team is infuriating and terrible at present I have every faith in the man at the helm and that he will wventuly turn us into a great team

Simon Howett
244 Posted 31/12/2014 at 19:55:17
James Martin @98. Top post, never a truer word spoken. The maiaise of the many a footballer. Not to take responsibility. Newcastle showed what a bunch of shrinking violets this lot are. They woke up at 3-1 down, yeah we can all do that for the last 10 mins.

Rarely do we see players managing a game in-play themselves. The non-communication between our current crop leaves me with little faith for the future. Its not like you can just transplant this "leader" mentality overnight.

Wayne Smyth
245 Posted 31/12/2014 at 22:04:59
Nice to see TeddyÂ’s post (19). IÂ’ve been thinking the same for a while now. But just been avoiding this site as much as possible becasuse no matter how shit I feel after a defeat, I only need to read some of the comments here to make me 10 times more depressed.

Whatever you think of Martinez and the players we have, they are part of our club and they need proper support.

As soon as we went a goal down, at Southampton I think, someone was giving Barkley tons of shit, expecting him to win the game single-handedly and basically slagging him off.

I remember a few seasons ago, when we were away to Crystal Palace. Palace were bottom of the league, yet the stadium was bouncing and the crowd were right behind their team. ThatÂ’s what our team needs now.

We have players like Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Coleman, Lukaku, McCarthy, Besic who are all relative youngsters. Because they are such good players people forget how inexperienced they are.

One thing is for certain, theyÂ’re not going to win games with the fans calling them useless wankers every week.

Mike Childs
246 Posted 31/12/2014 at 16:48:04
166 Does it for me Darren. Thanks
Ian Riley
247 Posted 31/12/2014 at 22:08:24
The manager has his own style, just like the previous manager. The players must take responsibility for what is being asked of them. The style of ball procession is fine but the players must fight to win the ball back. This is seriously lacking, desire to fight without the ball is crucial.

All the top teams have this desire to win the battle, to play their own game. Do we have the players to take up the style being implemented? The team has a number of players in their late twenties and thirties. Such a radical change of style in a short period of time might be the problem. Last season we added goals and defensive cover and style from the previous regime. This season the manager is implementing his style without the full personal as yet.

As fans we must decide to give the manager and players our support in the changes being implemented. Perhaps as a fan I thought this season would lead to better things in the league but the changes are taking longer. The chairman must back the manager with funds to bring players to suit his style. The squad was always going to need an overhaul of younger players.

At present the manager is not going to change is style and he is willing to risk his job for that. It's over to the players now!

Chris Leyland
249 Posted 31/12/2014 at 23:39:38
Football is a results game and whichever way you cut it Everton under Martinez are no longer getting the results.

2 wins in the last 10 league games
5 wins in 19 league games this season.
7 wins in the last 24 league games

The above number of wins tells us all that Martinez's tactics aren't working. His answer, repeating the same slow, turgid and rigid formation game after game with the same lack of success. Amazingly, people come on here and defend him.

Bill Gall
250 Posted 01/01/2015 at 00:25:06
Conor #231 You consider my post the worst post on here
why is it because I told the truth. After Mr Martinez gained promotion for Swansea to the championship (as I was so kindly informed) he stated he would only leave Swansea as manager if he was forced out. He also publicly critized players that left for money or for larger clubs. In 2009 when Celtic and Wigan asked Swansea to talk to Mr Martinez over their managerial vacancies he chose to talk to Wigan and after 4 days of discussion he was hired and at that time was offered a 3 year contract even if they were relagated.

So Mr Martinez was given the opportunity to go to Celtic that would have given him a substantial transfer budget plus a gauranteed place in the championship league so why as you say did he go to Wigan who had the lowest wage bill and budget .Do you think that he persuaded D.Whelan to let him try his philosophy in the premier to see how successful it would be ?

As strange as it may seem to some people on here I have never said that Martinez should be fired only that he should realize at this time his style was not working and he should stop being so stubborn to change. I also was of the opinion that he should look at possibly an Italian defensive coach to help intergrate a strong defensive style within his philosophy. Goals get you points but defence wins you games. Also ever since he was hired every oppurtunity I get I state that Everton needed and still need a quality creative midfielder.

Daniel Lim
251 Posted 01/01/2015 at 03:18:21
Teddy @ 19,

Did Moyes, Pulis, McClaren relegate their teams? Sorry my memory fails me so except DM, IÂ’m not sure of the other two. If they didnÂ’t, then the shout of their names arenÂ’t ridiculous.

RM did win a cup but he also relegated them. Having said this, IÂ’m not sure if I want any of them.

Matt Traynor
252 Posted 01/01/2015 at 05:04:12
Daniel #253, hundreds of managers go through careers having never relegated their teams. Hundreds also go through careers without ever troubling the etchers at the trophy engraver's shop. Brian Clough technically never relegated a team, because he retired a few weeks before Forest went down, with Stuart Pearce suffering the ignominy of being at the help during their final games - but the great Clough did in real terms.

I know plenty on here never wanted Martinez purely because he got Wigan relegated. Given the budgets he had to work with some would argue he did well to keep them up there for the two seasons prior.

People need to realise that as a club we're paupers in a rich league, thanks to our ownerships unwillingness or inability to directly invest or sell to someone with the means to. (Indirect investment is never going to happen whether you're looking 24/7 or not).

Therefore I can see why Martinez appealed to our Chairman. I'm disappointed with how things have transpired, and thanks to his increasingly bizarre utterances, no longer care whether Martinez stays or goes, as long as a decision either way happens soon.

But we as fans also need to be realistic. We're not going to attract a big name European manager - those who have or are close to testing themselves in the CL will want a club that fits their ambition - and we're not that. Sadly a McLaren or Pulis-esque manager is about our level.

James Stewart
253 Posted 01/01/2015 at 05:19:16
Koeman is doing ok for the Saints, though, Matt and they finished below us last season. He will be on less money than RM too that is for sure.
Chad Schofield
254 Posted 02/01/2015 at 06:29:14
For all the negativity in here, I was pleased to see the odd shining light from Teddy and Connor. Even after the Hull game, I am still in that camp... and it would need to be a lot worse for me to be calling for the manager's head.

Given our form, the recent Christmas bunched games were not good – and yes, I realise that's a massive understatement. It's sad but unfortunately not unexpected to see people ridiculing Roberto's comments. I still look back on my hopes and expectations at the beginning of the season – the Europa League would make a dent on our league position, but it would be great to give that and another cup a real go. I still feel that.

I haven't suddenly become an erratic RS fan who's celebrating "winning" the league one week to calling for their managers head the next. Yes, we need to not be kicking the ball out if one of their players catches one in the nuts, only to be repaid by (Coleman vs Newcastle) being elbowed in the face. But Pullis/Moyes-style managers – great let's nick a few 1-0s on the back foot, get shot of Barkley, Stones & Besic as well as the flair players and sign as many Dunne-like donkeys. We can then indefinitely span 6-14th in the league, simply bemoaning the lack of investment which would undoubtedly change our fortunes because Moyes only needs a couple more jigsaw pieces to build a makeshift gun.

Personally I'd rather give our "phenomenal" young manager more time – I think he'll turn it around.

Mike Green
255 Posted 02/01/2015 at 07:41:00
Matt (#254) – a sad but totally correct post. My sentiments exactly.

BK took a gamble on Moyes and it paid off, he rolled the dice with Martinez hoping lightning would strike twice but with style and sadly it looks like it's failed.

I never thought (and I'm not advocating this) I'd say Pulis but one things for sure, he'd keep us up. The alternative is rolling the dice again on someone like Eddie Howe with Alan Irvine as assistant.

BK has to act decisively though, I can't remember seeing a team fall apart as visibly as we have over the past few weeks. Tuesday night is going to be a horror show.

Sam Hoare
256 Posted 02/01/2015 at 08:00:14
Chad, where do you see this recovery coming from? There has been so little going right for a long time now I'm just finding it hard to see a turnaround happening.

I guess anything can happen in a game of football but faith can only be pushed so far and every string of patience has an end. I think I'm pretty near the end of mine.

When people were calling for Moyes's head, I felt I could still see lots of good things in our football. We weren't outplayed and outfought that often. The same cannot be said now. We have been turned over very comfortably by four teams we would expect to be above in the league and that's worrying in the extreme.

I hope the corner is turned but if it isn't quite soon then action must be taken. There's not a plethora of clearly better alternatives around but sometimes a fresh approach is needed and Roberto seems unwilling or unable to provide that himself.

Joe Foster
257 Posted 02/01/2015 at 08:20:47
Chad, you have obviously been drinking the Cool Aid...
Mike Allison
258 Posted 02/01/2015 at 08:50:07
Going back to the original point, Martinez doesn't need to deviate from playing 'football' by which we mean a passing game, he just needs to combine it with attacking and defending well.

At the moment we're like a concert pianist who plays all the wrong notes but is wearing a lovely suit.

Gary Heywood
259 Posted 02/01/2015 at 12:48:17
If you lot are serious about getting rid of RM just don't turn up to the next home game and stay away until he's gone.
Chad Schofield
260 Posted 02/01/2015 at 23:32:40
Sam, I understand the frustration.

I see the turn around coming from our players. We need to get out cutting edge back - and that's easily said, obviously. We need someone who can push Howard when he starts faltering or, like now, is injured.

We have had some bad injuries, ans players are coming back. Morale is low, but a couple of good results and that changes.

Of course instead I could just chose to believe that Pulis/Hughes/Reid/Warnock/Rednapp/Royal will magic the world better and we'll probably win the league - but definitely not face relegation.

Anto Byrne
261 Posted 03/01/2015 at 04:32:47
Lukaku, Stones, Garbutt and Barkley, Mirallas and Coleman. Baines and Besic with McCarthy. Let's add Oviedo and Browning to the list. This is my core player squad and the likes of Distin, Hibbert, Osman Gibson, Eto'o, Barry, McGeady and Pienaar no longer cut it. Howard and Jagielka can be retained in the short term.

Martinez has a lot of surgery to do. He has the foundations to rebuild. If we want to be successful, we need to play like Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd. We are too open and need to adapt to play a stylish game that does not threaten our position in the Premier League.

Peter Barry
262 Posted 03/01/2015 at 05:54:55
When you have a Manager, his backroom staff and five players from Wigan you can't expect to play like Barcelona but you can expect to play like WIGAN. That is exactly what is happening at Everton and, if the rot is not stopped soon, it will be TOO LATE and we will be playing Wigan in the Championship next season — if they survive there this season, that is.
Roger Helm
263 Posted 03/01/2015 at 17:20:15
Resolute or stubborn? What upsets me is not losing but the lack of effort and commitment. I watched all through the dark relegation-threatened years of the nineties and early noughties but I can't remember the team ever giving up. We have never been able to afford the top players, but Everton always had a reputation for spirit, effort, grit, determination and never-say-die.

Sadly, this is no longer the case. Today's players don't even seem fit. Passing the ball nicely in midfield counts for nothing if you can't attack and defend effectively. We had 60% possession against Chelsea so does Martinez think that was a good performance?


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