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Howard gets no blame from Martinez

22/02/2015  Comments (165)  jump

Roberto Martinez refused to blame Tim Howard for Everton's frustrating 2-2 draw with Leicester City despite the goalkeeper's glaring errors at Goodison Park.

Asked whether he felt the American was to blame, Martinez was quick to defend him. I don't see Tim as directly responsible of the draw, Martinez said.

The first one is quite an unlucky action. He gets in some sort of a block, it hits John Stones' legs and it ends up in the Leicester striker's footpath.

We have three players around him and it ends up with him. I don't think it was such a major error.

I don't think it would solve anything if we just single out the player who made that mistake. As a team we need to defend much better in those situations.

An increasing number of supporters have demanded that Joel Robles be reinstated to the team, but it appears Howard will remain as first choice when Young Boys come to Goodison for the Europa League round of 32 second leg on Thursday.

Tim Howard is one of our leaders, one of the most solid performers, Martinez said. What he brings as a goalkeeper is his understanding with other players, what he has achieved in the game, and when he is fully fit, he is a very strong performer.

His performance against Chelsea was outstanding and his performance against Young Boys, after the first goal when he doesn't see the ball, was terrific. I don't think that is the difference between getting three points and one point today.

Quotes sourced from Liverpool Echo


Reader Comments (165)

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Steve Guy
1 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:41:29
Completely delusional in my opinion. He nearly gifted the winner in the final minute. Fact is we ship goals when he's in the Team and have been all season. Whereas Robles kept consistent clean sheets.

Stats speak for themselves. This stubborn attitude will keep us on a relegation dogfight. Arsenal next week could be a bloodbath if Howard is still between the sticks.

Colin Williams
2 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:44:37
Stop talking shitte!... You dreamer!
Ralph Basnett
3 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:45:05
It is comments like this that shows why Martinez is not the man for Everton.

All Howard does is cost us points and yet he just sticks with him all the time, deluded!!!!

Paul Hewitt
4 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:46:19
By that he means Howard wont get dropped.
David Greenwood
5 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:48:18
Who was in goal when we were keeping clean sheets in January Roberto? Wake up man.
Alan Peake
6 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:46:17
Looks like Roberto has lost his eyesight as well as his marbles - just before the equaliser Howard pushed a ball out right to the attacker (as he normally does, has he never thought of trying to push them round the post?) and then he does it for the first goal, and he was like an old woman for the second goal.
Joe Edwards
7 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:51:14
Loosely translate "not directly responsible for the draw", into
"Directly responsible for us not fucking winning".

You have to read between Martinez's double-speak.

Mark Tanton
8 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:54:10
Roberto has tied his fate up with Howard. Which is pure folly. When he goes it'll be self inflicted.
Peter Laing
10 Posted 22/02/2015 at 18:54:38
The man Howard has been a walking liability for as long as I can remember and certainly does not justify being between the sticks ahead of Joel Robles. I've never been confident in a number of aspects of his game including poor kicking and general distribution, shaky on crosses, a tendency to stay rooted to his line and general poor decision making.

After being bombed out by Alex Ferguson he has gone on to be fortunate enough to be an ever present at Everton with very little in the way of a challenge from a back up goalkeeper and his 'heroics' at the World Cup has papered over the cracks or the chasm that has existed for a number of years. Howard would be struggling to get into any of the teams above Everton in the Premier league and he is now quite frankly a liability. Distin has been put out to grass and now it should be the same policy applied to Tim Howard.

Not in the same company as Neville Southall or Nigel Martyn and sentiment certainly should be no reason why we have to continue to endure a goalkeeper who is well passed his best.

Mike Price
11 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:01:51
I'm not a violent person but I'd like to slap Martinez right now.....just to wake him up of course.
Tom R Owen
14 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:11:09
Fucking hell Martinez you are the only person who thinks that!
Amit Vithlani
15 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:10:02
You, my good sir, are out of your tiny mind
Robin Cannon
16 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:21:46
His comments about the performance are right. Howard was not directly responsible for the draw. Martinez didn't say he played well, or that he didn't make mistakes, he said that it's not correct to blame a single player for our failure to win; which is correct.
Phil Walling
18 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:24:54
In spite of the fact that BK has absolute faith in his man, I am convinced Martinez will eventually TALK himself out of the job. The crap results will count for nothing !
Ian Burns
19 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:23:22
This manager is so far out of his depth - sees things the vast majority of supporters can't see - and talks utter tripe on so many subjects, I am getting to the point if he told me EFC played in blue I simply would think he is talking through his backside.

Please RM, it is time to leave before you become the first manager in over 60 years to take us down.

Ian Riley
21 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:12:37
The manager has to justify dropping a keeper in form and keeping clean sheets. I was a Moyes fan for his honesty when players underperformed. This manager will just make the fans turn against him more. Howard was to blame for the goals and could have caused more goals to be conceded due to his poor decision making.

This justifies what I have been saying all season. The manager believes Everton fc are lucky to have these players and they are beyond blame. Or the manager wants to be the players friend which if that is the case we are stuffed!

Denis Richardson
23 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:26:35
He talks crap a lot of the time but I don't agree with managers singling our players for public criticism (unless they got a stupid red or did something really bad).

Proof will be in the pudding come midweek and the Arsenal game. Personally I can't see RM dropping Howard as he's his 'no.1'. However it doesn't bode well for the future. We already have at least 4 players who'd be happy to leave Everton and I imagine Robles isn't too far from thinking the same.

This season just cannot end fast enough. Once we drop out of the EL next month the mood in GP for the remaining games will be 'interesting'.

David Hallwood
24 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:24:06
Peter Laing (#10) is bang on. Tim Howard has been a liability for as long as he's been at the club. Albeit a good shot stopper but doesn't and has never controlled his area which IMHO separates the great gks from the just ok.

This season he's taken his unpredictability to new heights, or lows; how many more times has he got to be beaten at his near post, or fail to catch the ball or push the ball out instead of pushing it around the post. And don't get me started on those stoopid fuckin star jumps.

Colin Glassar
25 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:33:27
Some homemade psychology here, I know, it's a long shot. Could it be that the defenders upped their game to help Robles knowing he is relatively inexperienced? But in Howard's case they trust him more and leave him a bit more exposed?
I'm not trying to defend Tim but maybe the defenders don't feel the need to protect him as much.
James Stewart
26 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:40:28
The sooner Howard and Martinez are no longer at Everton the better.
David Graves
28 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:45:45
Sorry Colin can't have that. Howard wasn't exposed for the goals he was just effin' hopeless.
Kevin Rowlands
31 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:44:19
C'mon Col that really is clutching at straws, Howard has been 'dodgy' for a couple of seasons now, what sort of message did it send Robles and other young players when he replaced him, it doesn't matter how well you perform your going to be sat down when the 'favorite' is fit, it was a fucking disgraceful decision to drop the lad after he had performed so well.
Eddie Dunn
33 Posted 22/02/2015 at 19:42:46
Howard was liable but the whole defence still looks shaky. Stones may look good on the ball, as does Baines, but both are caught out positionally.

Lukaku tried hard, and it is thanks to his persistence that we got the equaliser, but I watched his movement when the midfield were looking for an "out" ball, and he failed to move. He lacks so many basics, it's unreal. He doesn't see how he can pull defenders out of the middle, creating space for other to exploit, but the thought never enters his head.

He will score, but he takes so many chances to get a goal, that we will have to create 20 per game! In these days of inflated wages in football, it is shocking that he can be doing his job with such short-comings.

Clive Mitchell
36 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:05:39
Look at the League table. You won't be able to find three teams whose keeper has been as bad as Howard this season. We're in deep trouble and he needs to go now.
Lenny Kingman
37 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:08:21
He was past his best, if that's not a contradiction in terms, when binned from United to here. He has always been an average keeper but now he is just a clown.

Send him back to the States where they actually think he's a marvel. Of course they no nowt about football to start with.

Roman Sidey
38 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:11:10
I will never understand why managers' favourites are never the best at their position at their club. Lampard is probably the only favourite in the league in the last decade or so who was actually the best man at his club.
Keith Harrison
41 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:44:12
Roberto, you poor deluded fool. Knock the lights off please.
Dick Fearon
43 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:19:26
Howard should not shoulder all the blame, far from it.
Not a single defender could lay claim to having a half decent game. Except for Naismith the same can be said about the mid field and our lone striker was to use a Robertoism, incredibly diabolical with more than a touch of pure shite thrown in.
James Martin
44 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:44:14
Classic short keeper. Are quite good shot stoppers in their prime but once they lose that elasticity you realise their positioning has generally been poor and their coming for crosses is awful. Just like Given Howard's gone from being an ok prem keeper to one not suitable for the top flight. He'll only get worse. Roberto is a fool.
Kevin Rowlands
45 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:52:12
100% correct James, Howard has always had this terrible habit of making what should be a routine save to a top keeper look spectacular, he's nowhere near good enough for this league, he needs to be pensioned off to the MLS or the NBC commentary booth, I'll be fucking furious if Robles isn't the starter from now on.
John Keating
46 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:53:40
Martinez is an embarrassment and his delusional after match comments make the Club look like even more of a joke than we already are !
Colin Glassar
47 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:58:57
I'll be more than happy to see the back of Howard tbh. I bet most of the defenders will be as well.
Kevin Elliott
48 Posted 22/02/2015 at 20:53:46
Martinez needs to be put in a straighjacket and shipped off to the nearest loony bin.

Hes fuckin'demented.

David Graves
49 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:10:39
Ah right so Tim's not fully fit and when he is he will be a "very strong performer".
Ergo he's not fully fit but should play anyway.
I geddit.
Michael Winstanley
50 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:07:30
I think you'll find young Stones doesn't agree with you there boss. Watch the replays and you'll see the disgust Stones throws at Howard for both goals.

It's fairly clear to everyone who watched the game Howard was at fault, Martinez is not going to come out and blame his keeper, he doesn't do that to his players but you can bet he's seething at him privately.

I hope Stones has a word with Roberto just let him know he thinks Howard is shite.

John Ford
51 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:17:11
Get a grip. If he's asked the question directly then he should say whatever is needed, in public, to support his player. You don't criticise your own when someone sticks a microphone under your nose. All that matters is whether he thinks Tim is our best keeper and picks him, or not, for the coming games. The talk is just white noise. Irrelevant.
David Graves
52 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:35:15
No John if he's asked a direct question he just needs to give a direct answer. A simple "No" will do instead of another outpouring of nonsense.
Oliver Molloy
53 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:08:42
I admire managers who do their best to protect their players,but sometimes you have to say it like it is or if you don,t say it you show it in team selection.

In my opinion Martinez got it badly wrong putting Howard straight back in the team ahead of a young keeper who was gaining in confidence and deserved to keep his place based on his and the teams defensive performances.

Unfortunately the manager has to back him,otherwise his own credibility and judgement is called into question.
Martinez does not in still confidence in me that he has what it takes to lead Everton,despite his positivity.
When times get tough you have to show true leader ship qualities and do what you have to do.

All the great managers take no prisoners and carry no passengers- over to you Roberto.

Kevin Rowlands
54 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:39:46
JF #51, if he was so concerned about supporting his players then why was an in form, playing well, three clean sheets in a row, building confidence Joel Robles dropped for someone who's been very much part of the problem we find ourselves in today?
Kevin Rowlands
56 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:45:54
Hart, Mingolet, Cortouis, Cech, De Gea, Cassilas and Szczeny have all been dropped because of bad form, why should Howard, who is nowhere near as good as any of them be spared the same fate? it boggles the fucking mind.
Tony Byrne
57 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:28:27
The comments of RM concerning Howard come as no surprise, as already stated on here he is not going to slag him off in an interview.

For me, I would go back to RM's decision to drop a goalkeeper who had previously kept clean sheets, gaining confidence and a good understanding with the back four. Imagine if Robles would have played against Chelsea and kept a clean sheet? His confidence would have been sky high, as would that of our back four. Shutouts breed trust and confidence as we all know.

If we look back on the goals conceded since Howard was reinstated, would Robles have done better, absolutely in my opinion.

RM is responsible for reinstating Howard and for that alone, he needs to be fucked off.

We have many reasons why we think RM is not the right manager for Everton, for me this decision was the final straw.

Kevin Rowlands
58 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:04:17
Tony, I agree, absolutely disgraceful decision and it's going to come back and bite him in the arse.
Michael Penley
59 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:06:05
You can't have it both ways, Roberto. If you're going to be positive about Howard, you have to be negative about Robles. I wish someone from the media would just go on and ask what needs to be asked: "why did you drop Robles when he was performing better than Howard?".

I'd love to hear his "positive" response for that one.

Ross Edwards
60 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:06:27
Sticking to his favourites. Reputation over form and performance. Barry and Howard, by far our worst performers this season are the first names on the team sheet every single week. Both liabilities, but no, straight back in.
Tony Byrne
62 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:23:45
Kevin58 - It already has my friend, it happened today & it will happen again in the next game or the one after. What must Robles be thinking sat on that bench today. The poor lad will be sat on the bench for the next game probably.

I don't think I have been so pissed off than I feel these days watching EFC under this pleb. Insulting people's intelligence just winds me up no end, rambling utter shite day after day.

Lee Gorre
63 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:22:35
What is the club going allowing Martinez to spout his shite week in week out? Someone should be telling Martinez to fuck of with continually using the words phenomenal, incredible and fantastic. Christ it's both embarrassing and infuriating. Saw today he said Oviedo has been phenomenal since he came back. FFS!
John Crawley
64 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:33:01
"and when he is fully fit, he is a very strong performer", the implication being that he isn't fully fit now. I thought the decision to drop Robles was an extremely poor one but reading that comment its an even worse won.

He's put himself in a very difficult situation by backing Tim Howard the way that he has. If he drops him then his original decision looks very poor if he keeps him in and he continues to make howlers then its going to cost Everton more points and possible knock out from the Europa league. There was an interesting stat on the Executioner's Bong about Howard just before he got injured "his saves/ shots ratio is the worst of his Everton career, down from 2.83 last year to 1.28 this campaign – one of the worst in the division." Says it all really.

Bob Skelton
65 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:52:50
Howard and Barkley both need a rest. They're not up to the job. I often wondered why the likes of Warnock refused to give our great young hope any playing time. We are seeing why now.
Howard I despair of. Self opinionated flapper. Never comes for a cross, always pushes the ball back in play. Let him rest his arse on the bench and then go home to America an undeserved hero....

I'm a season ticket holder in lower gladwys and have not see a stirring performance ALL season. The crowd is not stupid but it now getting very, very quiet.

This team ranks with the worst I have seen here, since 66, RM needs to sort it out or I'll be dreaming longingly of Lee or Walker. First action.
DROP HOWARD

Tom Martin
66 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:19:21
We can't blame Martinez for not blaming Howard in public!
But what's really worrying is that he doesn't appear to recognise the number of points we've dropped because of Tim's out and out mistakes.
Added to that is the effect his uncertainty has on his defenders when crosses come in.
Oh, and also his hesitancy in coming off his goal line.
And not to mention, his poor distribution.
At the start of last season, I wrote in a comment expressing my concern about our goalie.
Most seemed to see things different to me at the time and as the season progressed, he only made a few mistakes to be honest.
And then he won rave reviews at the world cup for his outstanding SHOTSTOPPING for the USA.
However,having a couple of games where the opposition are firing in shots from in front of goal, is not the same as playing week in and week out in the EPL!
I'm not really having a go at Tim. But what does concern me is that Martinez doesn't appear to be hard enough to be a boss.
He's too nice! I'm beginning to think that under that velvet glove their is only a hand of putty.
For example.The way he let Jelavic go, (to help him gain a place in his national team at the world cup) was a bit of a sign of misplaced loyalty and softness. We were desperately down on numbers a bit later on and could have done with him!
I must be honest, in the beginning I was one of those who thought Roberto was the Messiah.
Last season, in one of our heady moments I recall saying to my son something like:
"I'd much rather watch Martinez's attractive style football than the crap we endured under Moyes, even if it meant we got relegation."
Now we're watching the crap every week and still could be relegated!
Oh how disillusioned I am!
David Hallwood
67 Posted 22/02/2015 at 23:18:49
Just seen the highlights on motd. Fuck me that was schoolboy howler stuff from Howard. What is it about his near post, has it got garlic on it on something.

A nightmare season from an erractic goalie. Get shut

Brendan Fox
68 Posted 22/02/2015 at 21:20:59
Martinez may not publicly want to criticise Howard but it will be his action or inaction that will speak volumes. If he sticks with Howard after this mare of a performance then the message this will send to Robles is clearly you are only a back up keeper if Howard is injured.

Robles after a shaky few games after Howard got injured with some game time he blossomed and this was proven with the clean sheets he kept in his last three games. He was wrongly dropped for Howard in most people's eyes other than Roberto's.

Robles has a much longer career ahead of him at 25 but he may not see it being here at Everton if he is not given a chance to prove he should be the first choice keeper when Howard under performs.

Next move Roberto's but if he sticks with Howard he better get his tin hat out.

Ray Roche
69 Posted 22/02/2015 at 23:23:49
Bob Skelton'65

Bob, stop rewriting history to suit your own argument. Barkley was highly thought of by the Leeds and Sheffield Wednesday fans when he was on loan. That dickhead Neil Warnock had an issue with his loan arrangement which eventually led to Barkley coming back, not his poor performances. I posted similar comments last week, here they are again,


These reports are from the Yorkshire press at that time,

"Everton star Ross Barkley is the best player Leeds United's Stephen Warnock has played with at Elland Road, according to the full-back.

Barkley has built himself a reputation as one of Europe's rising stars during his time at Everton. And the 21-year-old has also made an impression on Warnock, with Barkley having spent a brief period on loan at Leeds from Everton.

"I'd say Ross Barkley for the small spell he spent at the club. Could see his ability from day one. Incredible player," he wrote on BeanBagSports when asked who his best ever Leeds team-mate was.

https://www.facebook.com/LeedsUnited/posts/476945752366464

http://threeandin.com/ross-barkley-should-be-a-no-brainer-for-leeds/"

Andrew Laird
70 Posted 22/02/2015 at 22:52:57
It is about time Martinez took some of the blame himself or shut his mouth completely. Regardless of "digging out" Teflon Tim in public, whatever he says to the media or behind closed doors isn't working and if he wants to be a successful manager he needs to stop being a soft touch and grow some balls and shake things up. Right now we need a manager not a spotty, crab-stick flavouring fingered teenager in constant awe of players who were in a different league to whatever he amounted to.

Ludicrous contracts given by Martinez to players nearly eligible for a disability badge, winter fuel payments or both have been a disgrace to a club who cannot afford to pay £3 million for one of the best goalkeeping prodigy's in European football. Just how can the manager drop Barry or Howard for instance after rewarding them with lucrative pensions the club can ill afford? If he does drop them will there be a boardroom discussion as to why money is being wasted in the first place and who made that decision? This is just one decision which has left Martinez with nowhere to turn if the players start turning in dreadful performances, leading him to cut off his nose to spite his face with his team selections and his consistent and puke-inducing fawning over insipid and uninspiring shite which resides at the very apex of all that is mind-numbing wank.

It seems that the more time that passes Martinez gets a little further up his own arse, safe in the knowledge that all of his football possession pages in his tactical masterplan which that are stuck together in Graeme Jones' office drawer which will never be seen or understood by anyone except those two on their way to the Nou camp. Time to wake up Roberto, you can't polish a turd but you love rolling it in glitter and people are getting restless.

Colin Glassar
71 Posted 22/02/2015 at 23:30:26
Bob S, you say this is the worst team you've seen since '66. What was wrong with that team may I ask? Please explain as that is a very confusing statement to make.
Phil Walling
72 Posted 22/02/2015 at 23:29:04
Ray @69. Barkley may well have been the best Championship midfielder ever to play in Yorkshire but three years later that doesn't count for much in the Prem.

I don't think you'd find many who would presently see him as the best midfielder here as he struggles to live up to all his manager's hype and fulfil his undoubted 'potential' !

Bob Skelton
73 Posted 22/02/2015 at 23:36:01
Colin I only started watching in 66. That was a good team. I'm not as old as methusela. Have to start somewhere.

Maybe should've said in my living memory or something....

Bob Skelton
75 Posted 22/02/2015 at 23:39:19
Ray do you go the match? Or do you need other people's opinions to justify yours?

On current form Barkley should not be near the first team. He is not the only one. He is quietly being destroyed by RM playing when he needs a rest. Plenty of potential. Not we need now.

Colin Glassar
76 Posted 22/02/2015 at 23:44:50
That makes more sense Bob.
Terence Leong
77 Posted 23/02/2015 at 00:04:37
How do you expect Martinez to respond? Cream the goalie?
Most of us in his position wouldn't, because of the impact on team morale.
If the media really wants to "show Martinez up", then they should do a better job to ask more probing questions about tactics, preparations (after a euro night), players' mentality etc.
I think though, that Martinez will put Robles in goal for the return leg with Young Boys, and if Robles play well, he will stay in goal for the rest of the season.
Martinez is probably giving Howard a chance (it's been 3 strikes, so to speak.since he returned)
Peter Barry
78 Posted 23/02/2015 at 00:22:36
Seems we will have to add 'delusional' to inept and incompetent on Roberto's term report.
Brian Porter
79 Posted 23/02/2015 at 00:42:41
Welcome to Planet Martinez, where every negative is a positive and every cock-up is a phenomenal moment. For God's sake, Roberto, even Man City had the balls to drop England's keeper when his form dipped, but you just stick your head in the sand, ignore Robles' phenomenal (couldn't resist that), improvement and blindly put Tim Howard back in goal to help push us nearer to the relegation zone. It's getting to the point, (or in Robert speak) getting to the moment where the only way BK is going to act is if the fans vote with their feet and boycott a couple of matches. If BK sees attendances dropping as a direct result of the fans' dissatisfaction with the manager and his ridiculous tactics, he may finally be forced by the paymasters to do something and get rid of this charlatan. Trouble is, as Evertonians we are so damn loyal we keep turning up to watch the same crap every week in the vain hope we will see some improvement. As long as Martinez is in charge, we won't. Surely there are clubs in the conference he could inspire, but not Everton, no way, not ever.
Tony Byrne
80 Posted 23/02/2015 at 00:44:04
Terence77 - I hope your right concerning RM putting in Robles on Thursday night, I won't hang by my bollocks waiting for this to happen though, he has shown in the past that, no matter how bad you perform, you will still get into the team next time around.

You have stated that "Martinez is probably giving Howard a chance",I fully respect your comment but why should Howard be given a chance in the first place, displacing a young up & coming goalie who has kept 3 clean sheets prior to being dropped???

As stated in another thread, that decision alone warrants the bullet for our "phenomenal" football fraud that is our current manager.

19 months on, Wigan are still picking up the pieces of the car crash that RM left them with,League one beckons for his former club.

John Maxwell
81 Posted 23/02/2015 at 02:07:28
Managers don't publicly ridicule their own players in front of a TV camera or any other media.

I'm sure Martinez and has a word with Howard, in fact I'm sure the man himself knows how bad those errors were.

What would fans of said if had gone to the MLS after the World Cup ? Same with Barry, he was good last year.

Such a let down of a season.

Mike Price
84 Posted 23/02/2015 at 04:23:40
Andrew #70 Great post, agree with all of that.

This season is a complete disaster and I can't believe people are still flippant about the possibility of relegation. Martinez has become an embarrassment when most of us thought he was the real deal. I loved that Dick Emery's vicar over the park was the fraud and we had, finally, made a better choice than them, how devastatingly wrong could you be.

Daniel Lim
86 Posted 23/02/2015 at 06:06:14
There goes our hope that heÂ’s going to start Robles in the next few games.
Daniel Lim
87 Posted 23/02/2015 at 06:22:22
Second that, Mike @ 11.

In fact I have a crazy thought, can we go kidnap Tim Howard and only release him when we are mathematically safe from relegation?

Matt Bridges
88 Posted 23/02/2015 at 06:54:55
This is how we should line up against arsenal.

Joel

Coleman, Stones, Jags, Garbutt

McCarthy, Gibson, Besic

Atsu, Kone, Baines


This is how we will line up.

Howard

Coleman, Stones, Jags, Baines

McCarthy, Barry

Mirallas, Barkley, Naismith

Rom

I just give up.

Tony Draper
89 Posted 23/02/2015 at 06:24:27
Much of Tim Howard's excellent "ball handling skills" are heavily influenced by his basketball background (he apparently had a very promising professional career on offer). However, the mindset when challenging for a ball way above head height in basketball is radically different than for a goalkeeper. (Very late now, I know). So does TH still have some deeply ingrained bad habits ? I think so.

The dreadful punch late on against Chelsea achieved 2 things..........and both were equally lethal as a combination.
Firstly, having elected to punch ........ that is all he achieved, a fist upon the ball. What should have been his intent was to "clear" the ball wide.....looking for the touchline and thereby earning time for the defence to realign at the very very least.....instead.....he popped the ball straight out to the edge of the box in clear view of goal.
Secondly, having managed the ill considered punch, he consequently left himself (and the whole defence) very poorly positioned for the inevitable incoming shot.

His decision making against Leicester was scary (it is also different to Robles) and that suggests why the defence appeared so "twitchy".

Joel has improved lately with match practice, however, this does not make me a Robles fan, he still has some considerable distance to go to seriously impress me. 3 consecutive clean sheets is promising, but it's still not 3 consecutive glowing reports.

Reinstalling TH wasn't a big issue for me (had JR been selected then I'd still have had "mixed feelings, just for different reasons) and seemed a "precautionary" decision which hasn't paid off. Shit happens.

Now, however, I think that I'd revert to Robles whilst he still has some impetus based upon performance. That would send a bloody strong message to every single player. Particularly the younger ones with ambition.

Hard times require tough decisions and not just in the dressing room.

Matt Bridges
90 Posted 23/02/2015 at 06:58:21
Unfortunately although we are 12 and that may look to some people as enough to be out of relegation worries, but there is only 6 points in it...

Just managing to rescue a point in the last minutes from an own goal to 20th place leicester at home isn't good enough. That should realistically be the easiest game we have to play (obviously I know thats not how it works) but the so called easy games which should be a guaranteed 3 points - like today, are running out and with the final day edging closer and closer the bottom teams are only going to be fighting more and more to survive.

I do still have some confidence in Martinez based on the fact the he simply couldn't get Everton relegated... Could he?

James Marshall
91 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:02:02
Supporters like to lay blame and point the finger, but it's wrong to do so - especially publicly. Would it help Tim Howard to come out and say, "yeah the keeper cost us today". No, of course it wouldn't. What do you want Martinez to say when the team is struggling to win games?

Everyone is having a pop at the manager for being overly positive but you can't come out and lay into the players when things aren't going well - it won't help anyone, and if he did you'd all be saying how negative he is.

He's damned either way, but he's doing the right thing not blaming the players in public so you have to accept that.

As a goalkeeper, any small mistake you make is massively highlighted and can have a much bigger effect on proceedings than if you lose the ball in midfield for example - on that basis I don't think it's fair to lay into Howard who IS a very good keeper and has been consistently so for a long time for us.

Yes he's made some mistakes this season, and perhaps he is a player on the way down, but he's not the reason we're failing to win games. We weren't any better with Robles in goal either and our problems lay much deeper than with the keeper making mistakes.

I would suggest last night the second one was a goalkeeping error but the first one was fired in and he did well to get a hand to it - unluckily it bounced up off Stones which is not the keepers fault.

Joe Foster
93 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:19:22
Poppycock James. Robles 3 clean sheets, Howard can not keep a clean sheet
Keith Harrison
94 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:03:47
One team almost every year gets dragged into the morass from nowhere and ends up going down - often because they thought it couldnÂ’t happen to them. We have had no clean sheets since Tim came back, and the defence looks jittery again. ItÂ’s not just down to him though. Baines looks almost as shot as Barkley at the moment, and if we donÂ’t both sign and start playing Garbutt, my lot with Roberto will have ended.
Helen Mallon
95 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:22:37
If we want the manager out vote with feet/or banners. Is it not time to turn on Kenwright the board and Martinez through twitter etc and get them ousted.
James Marshall
96 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:23:27
Joe - I played in goal at a fairly decent level for about 6 years, so I feel I know a little bit about goalkeeping and I can assure you there's much more to clean sheets than simply the goalkeeper himself.

It's about the entire team working, and defending properly - it's rarely about one person (the keeper) keeping a clean sheet. Personally I see the correlation between the 3 clean sheets with Robles playing as a reflection of our teams performances, and the opposition faced rather than simply having Robles in goal for those games.

If you watch the build up to the Leicester goals last night, there were plenty of opportunities for the outfield players to affect them, but they didn't. This is NOT the goalkeepers fault, in particular the first goal for which Howard did extremely well - it was bad luck to hit Stones and drop for the Leicester player (Nugent?).

The second one, he should have done better I grant you, but all players make errors.

James Marshall
97 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:28:26
Helen - that attitude will not help the team and should in my opinion, be discouraged. Support your team, don't undermine them.
Ernie Baywood
98 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:27:44
It's simple. Tell Tim that he's an old boy who needs to make way for the younger man in the nothing to play for league and the YB dead rubber.

Then select for future EL games on merit.

Selecting Tim just makes no sense anymore.

Helen Mallon
99 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:36:56
Well James, nothing else is helping the team and all I hear on this forum is fans complaints and to be honest complaining on here wont have any effect trying to remove the manager or board. But in my opinion a concerted attack may just succeed. I also understand that fans should be able to moan but if you really believe Martinez should go then what other way is there for this to happen.
James Marshall
101 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:50:25
Helen - I see no positives in sacking the manager or undermining the team from the terraces. I also don't want him sacked, so I don't agree with you on any level I'm afraid :)
Phil Walling
102 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:53:47
James, you must be the only contented Evertonian on the planet. But there is always one !
John Keating
103 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:50:42
James
I never played in goal at any level, unlike your good self, but to say that for the first goal "Howard did extremely well"
You Sir, are as deluded as our so called Manager !
A supposedly top PL International goalkeeper should have had that cross for breakfast.
Praising the players up continually and not apportioning blame has obviously, this season not worked.
Maybe a new approach might pay dividends - could it be worse ?
So if we get relegated at least we can say that the manager never blamed anyone !
Say nothing just DROP them !!
James Marshall
104 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:56:31
Phil - I'm far from content, but I don't agree with the blame-game that everyone plays. I'm someone who thinks being a supporter is about being supportive, not being negative towards my team/players/club when things go badly.

I've openly criticised the manager today on a number of threads.

James Marshall
105 Posted 23/02/2015 at 08:58:06
John - the cross was fired across on the floor and he did well to get a hand on it. The hardest balls to get down and deal with as a keeper are the ones on the ground, so I disagree. It was bad luck it bounced up off Stones.
Darren Bailey
106 Posted 23/02/2015 at 09:16:56
Just came in to this thread late on as IÂ’ve given up on post match dissection. Even to the point that I donÂ’t even bother reading the dribble that comes out of our managerÂ’s mouth now. His post match interviews (and pre match to that extent) have become repetative, boring and heÂ’s coming across as very amature and deluded.

We have taken 2 points from the team that will be bottom of the Premier League this season which for any team is poor in so many ways. I canÂ’t wait for this season to end to be honest and hope that the board, the management and the playing staff get a massive overhaul otherwise weÂ’ll be saying the same things again next season.

P.S. On another note-Lukaku needs to have a good long hard look at himself. 㿈m, youÂ’re having a laugh!
Ray Roche
107 Posted 23/02/2015 at 09:06:54
Phil Walling #72

At no point do I suggest that Barkley is the "best player here". I am merely pointing out that he had a successful loan at both Sheffield and Leeds, according to the reports at the time and the reports from relatives from Yorkshire and a Leeds season ticket holder.

Bob Skelton #75

Bob, yes, I do go to the match, and I have done since the very late 1950's, consequently I am perfectly capable of making my own observations regarding football. I also don't make up "facts" about Neil (spit) Warnock not playing Barkley in his time at Leeds because he wasn't good enough, something which is blatantly untrue.
I do, however, agree that Martinez, ably assisted by the busload of professional coaches who berate Barkley to such an extent that the lad is shitting himself everytime he gets the ball, is ruining what could be the stand out player of his generation. As they say,form is temporary, class is permanent, and Barkley would/will be a tremendous player given the right team to play in and the right manager and coach to get the best out of him. Martinez is not that man. Martinez has also made Baines a shadow of the player he has been, by not realising that, without an outlet like Pienaar to help Baines get forward and to help cover for Baines when he DOES get forward, he has halved our attacking threat from the wings.Only Coleman presents a threat from wide positions now and I thought it was noticeable that he got forward more yesterday with Lennon in the team from the start than he has all season.
I would be much happier to see Baines playing in tandem with Oviedo or better still, Garbutt who I feel is good with his delivery and would benefit from a run in the team. Just as Robles did.... that ended well, didn't it?

Brent Stephens
108 Posted 23/02/2015 at 09:58:15
Poor Baines, stood still for so much of the time watching the game unfold in the middle and on the right, while there was acres of space down the left (with Nais tucked into the middle). But with few balls capitalising on that space. His whole body language says it all.

Roberto is destroying Baines like this. He's destroying Barks, trying to play in a crowded middle of the pitch (Nais, one of my favourites but holding Barks' hand in that crowded middle). He's destroying Lukaku, having to play so much this season facing that congested middle of the park and receiving the ball from it with his back to the defence - not part of his skill set.

Players or tactics at fault? Wrong shape holes or wrong shape pegs?


Gerard Carey
109 Posted 23/02/2015 at 10:21:44
I think Joel should start on Thursday and Sunday. Let Tim know he has to fight for his place. Anybody notice the looks both Jags and Stones gave Tim after both goals, if looks could kill!!!. Sure dos'nt look like a happy defence.
John Keating
111 Posted 23/02/2015 at 10:29:36
James
I appreciate everyone has their own opinion but you are the only person I have spoken to that believes Howard was not at fault for the first goal.
I don't know if you've read any reports in this mornings papers on the game but every single commentator - without exception - puts it squarely on Howard.
I have not read one poster on any thread that thinks that "Howard did extremely well"
It would not surprise me if even Howard would not say he was at fault for both goals and I'm sure this morning he will undoubtedly thinking what an arsehole he was.
You may well have a supporter for your view somewhere in the world today but I would imagine it could only be Mrs Howard.
Phil Roberts
112 Posted 23/02/2015 at 10:30:25
Some numbers - but then I am all about numbers

(11;10;13;13)14;14;17;11;9;12;11;15 and this year 6

Numbers of clean sheets. The first 4 were David Moyes first four full years in charge and the next 8 are the last 8 seasons with Tim Howard as Goalkeeper.

So on average we are doing no worse, no better - but it sure feels like in terms of a rock solid defence.

Barry Stevens
113 Posted 23/02/2015 at 10:34:00
Kevin Rowlands 56. Spot on.
James Hughes
114 Posted 23/02/2015 at 10:36:19
While there is nothing to be gained by the manager publicly slating Howard, his continual bullshit is now grating.

Fraudball is described as awesome, dross is phenomenal.

Roberto is beginning to remind me of Donald Sutherland the hippy tank captain in KellyÂ’s Heroes.
"WhatÂ’s with negative vibes man,we need positive waves dude"

Colin Glassar
115 Posted 23/02/2015 at 10:39:20
Gerard, Barkley was getting a right rollicking by a few players in the first half as well. The lad looked paralysed with fear so something isn't right. As for Howard, he needs to be dropped against YBB I'd play the fring players in this game so as not to give the usual suspects their ready made excuses on sunday.

Robles
Hibbo (if fit)
Galloway
Distin
Garbutt
Atsu
Besic
Gibson
Oviedo (if fit)
Pienaar or Ossie (if fit)
Kone

Subs: Howard Stones Jags Barry Ledson Mirallas Lukaku.

Ray Roche
116 Posted 23/02/2015 at 10:49:14
Colin, it's no wonder Barkley is paralysed with fear, half the crowd are on his back everytime he gets the ball. Players aren't deaf, they can hear the dog's abuse hurled at them, how can we expect a young player to reach the ridiculously high standards expected from him every week if the morons in the stand are screaming abuse at him? I don't know what it is about Everton fans at Goodison but once a player begins to slip from a high standard or age catches up with him he gets loads from the terraces. This has always gone on, from Ball, Reid, doesn't matter how good they've been, the idiots in the stands, superb coaches every one, give them loads.

How good would they be at their job, flipping burgers, if the customer was screeching in their ear all day?

Try a bit of encouragement, eh? Just might help. At the moment, Fortress Goodison is working for the away team.

Colin Glassar
117 Posted 23/02/2015 at 11:03:10
Ray, I'm in total agreement with you regarding Ross. Is it a coincidence that in Switzerland he played with a confidence rarely seen in the prem this season yet at home he looks lost?
To be fair to the paying public they've had a lot of dross to put up with this season and Ross doesn't help himself when instead of doing the simple things simply, he over complicates. Yesterday, for example, I think he lost the ball with his first three touches and misplaced a few easy passes early on.
The Goodison crowd have always had a go at their own, especially the local lads, but that is part and parcel of the game and these lads need to recognise that. Barkley, if handled properly, is a massive talent and it would be a crime to not allow him to realise his full potential.
Andrew Laird
118 Posted 23/02/2015 at 10:37:45
James #96, just where was Howard deflecting the ball for the first goal while he was lying helpless on the floor at his near post leaving the whole goal to aim at? Now did he do "extremely well" and try to divert the ball AWAY from goal or did he simply get a limp wrist on the ball and put it back in to the danger area, which seems to be ingrained into his brainfarts?

I half agree that Howard has been "consistently good" but this entire season he has been fucking abysmal. At least you did not try to defend his assist for Leicester's second or even mention the all too common schoolyard mis-kick that he started laughing about, or the pathetic attempt at the end of extra time where he nearly gifted them all 3 points.

As you say you played goalkeeper at a decent standard, were you coached to make little side-steps to get yourself across and narrow the goal BEFORE diving? Watch the goal Howard concedes at Young Boys and ask yourself if you think he could of done better or if he just made it look like he was trying?

Do you not think that having a goalkeeper who doesn't try his best to throw the ball in his net at least once every game would go somewhere to creating a better overall team confidence and momentum to get points? Would it create less pressure on your midfield or attacking players if they didn't have to score a minimum of 2 goals every game?

Desperate post from yourself and you normally seem more informed. Howard should be gathering splinters until Summer and then given away free with a box of Capt'n Crunch.

Ernie Baywood
119 Posted 23/02/2015 at 11:34:06
Ray. If you're being asked to flip burgers, but the customers don't want burgers, then what do you expect?

Every one of our players right now is shit and has been all season.

Good players don't, as a collective, suddenly turn shit overnight. We're like a company with an awful strategy... doesn't matter how good the workers are. It's still a terrible strategy.

Dave Abrahams
120 Posted 23/02/2015 at 11:37:41
Colin (115) that team you've picked for Thursday. we are only three goals ahead. not six or seven.
Colin Glassar
121 Posted 23/02/2015 at 11:47:53
Dave, there's enough experience, and talent, in that team to get us through safely. It won't happen as I think he will play his strongest side and we will suffer on Sunday.
Rob Baker
122 Posted 23/02/2015 at 11:48:36
If the fans are unhappy, then vote with their feet and cash. That will get the message across to those concerned. No point bitching and moaning on here as this is like screaming in space.
Brin Williams
123 Posted 23/02/2015 at 12:00:59
RB122
That is the only thing that will change anything - money.

Once the suits realise that they are being hit in the pocket things may change.

I say 'may' because for all I know they may not give a toss about the fans through the turnstiles so long as they are dipping into the PL Jackpot.

Still I wouldn't like playing to a half empty stadium.

Ignore the early bird and see what happens. I gave this season a miss, did not renew ST and am quite happy to follow our progress from the comfort of home. I can switch off when I like - pity, but there you are.

Dave Abrahams
124 Posted 23/02/2015 at 12:05:34
Colin you just can’t cobble a team together like that. You’ve picked three players not probably fit, Galloway is not ready, Distin hasn’t played for weeks,I promise you it just wouldn’t work.

Then again it wouldn’t bother me if he did play that team as I’m not bothered about the Europa Cup, I’m much more interested in staying in the Premiership, but as you say that team will not be picked anyway.

Paul Dark
125 Posted 23/02/2015 at 12:13:54
Roberto is a modern man. He uses words to obscure not clarify. That single fact explains much of his character and much of the reason for his failure as a manager.

We need to replace him in the summer with a man of substance and backbone (Laudrup, Bilic [I know], Koeman, Klinsmann etc.).

Colin Grierson
126 Posted 23/02/2015 at 12:13:55
Tim Howard wasnt happy at the treatment that Moyes got at Old Trafford and commented in the press about it. Moyes deserved all he got after the way he left and Howard should've kept his own counsel rather than make disparaging comments about his own teams supporters. I wanted him to go then cos he thinks we should be nice to his mate! The man is a bell-end! We gave Moyes a stage to earn a king's ransom but we should be grateful!? They should all (players and management alike) be grateful that they are at our club!
Howard hasn't been a terrible keeper for us but he certainly hasn't been irreplaceable. He has been consistently poor for the last year or so and like any other player should only be given a place on merit. He doesn't merit that place and therefore should be on the bench.
LUKAKU - Now for £28m I have certain expectations of a striker that are not being met.
1. Dynamic movement - How many off-sides FFS!
2. Hold up play - He has the touch of a 1970s BBC light-entertainer.
3. Heading - To be fair we don't cross the ball and our corners are awful.
4. Finishing - Dont give me the stats as my eyes tell me all I need to know!
I'm fed up with the word 'potential'. Hes potentially the biggest waste of money we've ever spent. I hope he turns out to be as good as he thinks but I'm all out of hope after watching us this season. Utter (insert expletive here)!!!
Denis Richardson
127 Posted 23/02/2015 at 12:42:28
Roberto at first comes across as a nice, friendly knowledgable man. However, the more I've listened to him over the last 6 months or so, the more he reminds me of someone trying to sound modern, intelligent and highly educated, using a few long words learnt somewhere along the way.

However, using the same words over and over again would imply that he's either not very intelligent and/or doesn't actually know the meaning of those words. (Or he's so intelligent and I'm simply too dumb to understand him......could also be the case!)

Nothing (and I mean NOTHING) about this season so far can be described as; phenomenal, incredible, outstanding, terrific or fantastic unless it's used in a negative context. I.e. phenomenally/incredibly/fantastically/outstandingly bad.

I'm honestly begining to come round to the conclusion that Martinez is actually an idiot who has the ability to fool a lot of people with his over positive and very repetitive bollocks. However, you can't fool all the people all the time....truth will out.

Jay Wood
128 Posted 23/02/2015 at 12:39:32
As is inevitable after another disappointing performance, there is a great deal of angst, frustration and disappointment across different threads.

As is equally inevitable, there are a handful of appeasers and apologists – my own apologies if that offends, but they are appropriate words to describe such people – who continue to deny the club is in crisis, who rather than question the manager glibly defend him not with any supporting evidence, but nothing more than blind faith.

They deflect blame of the manager on the inability of the players under his charge (many of them recruited by Martinez himself) to adapt to his football ’philosophy.’ This ignores the fact that essentially they are the same players who DID adapt, rapidly and effectively, to the new manager last season.

Similarly, the appeasers and apologists have no response to those who awkwardly ask, if that is truly the case, why is the manager insisting on applying his football philosophy if the current stock of players are not capable of playing it?

Instead, many blame the fan base for transmitting their anxiety to the players who then freeze and play ineffectively. Indeed, I’ve seen on TW a match-going Blue of 40 years vehemently argue the fan base is the principal reason the collective and the individual are playing so badly this season. Not the poor fitness levels … not the tactics or game strategy or management … but … the fans are the principal reason for our poor season. Personally, I find such a claim absurd in the extreme.

Equally, the appeasers and apologists say "Everton won’t be relegated - there are 3 worst teams in the league than us." This completely misses the point. There is no cause for triumphalism or celebration in such statements. Our club, this squad, should be nowhere near the relegation dog fight. But … they are.

Do any of the appeasers and apologists truly, closely, study the league table? If so, are any of you aware in the 14 games played against the 11 clubs above us this season, we have won but one single game – a fortunate 2-1 home win over WHU? In our 7 away games against the same 11 teams we have lost 6, picking up a solitary point with Jags wonder goal to earn a point at Analfield. Yet some still think we can even now achieve a top 8 finish …

I’ve read on here in the last 24 hours that every PL game is difficult and we have no right to expect a victory at home to Leicester, the worst side in the league. That’s true to a degree. Season after season in the PL a low ranked team turns over a higher ranked one. But such a view is too accepting of mediocrity. Too appeasing. Too apologetic. The facts are even against the lower ranked teams this season, our form is woeful.

We should be tanking Leicester and teams of their ilk. But instead, we have but 2 home wins against the 8 teams below us in the league. A ’gimme’ against QPR and another against Villa. Of the rest, we have lost to Palace and drawn against WBA, Hull and now Leicester.

I know the Goodison Park crowd well. I know the scorn, the abuse, the expletives, the scathing comments from the terraces that can be heard on the pitch and around the ground. And that is just from the kids and women!

But ... so what?! I defy any committed, passionate Evertonian sitting in front of their telly or watching a dodgy stream on their computer NOT to spontaneously curse or express exasperation at another Groundhog Day performance as the team, players and yes, the manager, repeat the same errors over … and over … and over again.

Why should we demand match going Blues who have made even greater sacrifices by handing over their hard-earned, in the white heat of live battle, to show greater restraint than armchair fans at home?

Rather than condemn and criticize them, we should be applauding them for their dogged attendance having to pay for and endure the poor fare offered for the majority of the season.

Colin Grierson
129 Posted 23/02/2015 at 13:02:05
Jay, fair comment. I agree that is unfair to lay the blame on the crowd at GP.
The average age of crowds such as ours is rising. A recent survey at Newcastle found the average age to be 45. Now at that age you've earned the right to have a moan at lads young enough to be your son, earning more in a year than you'll earn in a lifetime. Fans (in general) don't want to sit there any moan etc but nor do they want to start maniacally singing (like Palace). I am around the average age and I behave differently at the game now than when I was in my youth, regardless of the form of the team. The atmosphere isn't quite like it was when I went as a teenager but it was cheaper then and it was terraces too.
Goodison has been like a library lately and its not great. However, it is not the cause of the problem, merely a symptom of the dross being witnessed. Even when we are winning it is a quiet stadium (relatively speaking) but nobody questions it then do they.
Chris Leyland
130 Posted 23/02/2015 at 13:12:14
Jay Woods, I couldn't agree more. You have summed it up perfectly. blind faith in this manager is exactly what some posters exhibit with absolutely no regard for what the rest of us have witnessed this season.

Some hark back to last year and claim that was the 'real Roberto' but by doing so, only undermine their argument. Because if that is the case and that is what he is genuinely capable of, then this year is even more criminal with the squad he has at his disposal.

I think we can all take unlucky late defeats at Stamford Bridge but draws at home to Leicester, West Brom and Hull should be simply unacceptable for this club.

Our 6 wins out of the 26 league games this year (yes just 6 wins):

QPR, Villa and West Ham at home
West Brom, Burnley and Palace away

So, we've managed to beat 5 of the bottom 8 and only won one other game.

The only words to sum that up should be: abysmal, embarrassing and shameful.

John Keating
131 Posted 23/02/2015 at 13:17:09
Jay
spot on !!
Tony J Williams
132 Posted 23/02/2015 at 13:30:07
Looks like he is doing a Jelavic

Unknown quantity at the start, loads of plus points but as soon as players work him out...BANG.....nothing but mis-hits and sitters.

In regards to slagging off Howard, instead of the flowery twatty summing up, just laugh a little ironically and say, "Yeah, he didn't have the best of games today, did he?"

Not a massive put down but enough to let us know he sees the same game as we do, as there is no way in Hell he should be using that fucking word phenomenal about any aspect of that game yesterday, unless he was stating is was a phenomenal fuck up with us once again shooting ourselves in the foot.

Dave Abrahams
133 Posted 23/02/2015 at 13:51:54
I am probably on the wrong thread, but with the news that Chris Long 's extended stay with Brentford, for another month, I think Everton have to careful the stay is not lengthened any further.

It looks obvious that Kone is not being trusted with any game time and we don't have many options in this position.

Kevin Rowlands
134 Posted 23/02/2015 at 13:51:22
Good post Jay, it pisses me off when we're being told we should support the team no matter what, I will always support Everton but what I won't support is the utter shite that has been served up this season, and then the fucking ridiculous excuses being given afterwards. I just seen an Opta Joe stat on twitter saying that Everton have committed THIRTEEN errors that have led to goals being scored this season, SIX more than any other team in the EPL, I suppose the moaning fans should be blamed for that as well, I honestly can't wait for this fucking shit season to be over!
Gavin Johnson
136 Posted 23/02/2015 at 13:58:04
Martinez is clearly using the same logic with Howard that see's Barry and and to a lesser extent Baines beyond reproach.

It makes me wonder if Martinez is scared of upsetting the 'bigger' personalities in the dressing room. Because it seems barring injury or suspension that Howard and Barry are the first names on the team sheet irrespective of form.

Martinez now looks an idiot defending Howard when he's got a keeper on the sidelines who can command his area better than Howard, distribute the ball better than Howard, and looked like he was growing in confidence every game.

We had to win yesterday, and we can go on about the hangovers from Thursday as mitigation, but at the end of the day a draw at home with Leicester isn't good enough.

James Marshall
137 Posted 23/02/2015 at 14:07:46
All I'm saying is that being a goalkeeper is a bit like running the line - nobody thanks you when you get things right or wrong. It's a thankless task.

I believe Howard did well to get down to the initial cross for the first goal. He was unlucky it bounced up off Stones for Nugent to knock it in IMO.

And that's the point - it's all about opinions and I rarely agree with so called experts and people who happen to be paid for watching football and writing about it. Hacks are no more informed about these matters than we are so their opinions mean no more to me than a stranger in a pub to be honest.

If people prefer to be swayed by what some idiotic press reports say, then that's fine but I choose to form my own opinion which I feel is actually more valid than someone who's never played the game.

Ray Roche
138 Posted 23/02/2015 at 14:04:49
Ernie Baywood #119

Ernie, good response, but whether it's burgers or bloody joinery, getting on someone's back is unlikely to help, is it? There's a guy sits near us in the Lower Gwladys St who shouts absolute crap from start to finish. If you listen to whah he actually says, it's complete drivel. We call him "Coach." Now, we all know it's drivel, but the decibel level is such that the Park End must be pissed off with him. Let alone the players. And we all know where the awful strategy comes from...

Colin Glassar #117

Yes, Col, the difference between playing home and away must be really remarkable if you're a player. I'd hate to see Barkley's career go down the pan at Everton because of the fans attitude to a local talent. And you're right, there is a tendency to turn on home grown talent first...imagine if Brett Angell had been a scouser..

James Marshall
139 Posted 23/02/2015 at 14:27:23
Well said Ray.
Tony J Williams
140 Posted 23/02/2015 at 14:31:09
Maybe if Berkley stopped just trotting around when he loses the ball people wouldn't actually have a go at him.

The tide changed slightly yesterday just before he was taken off, as he harried and tried to bully a defender on the line.....then he was subbed!

Anyone who states that the crowd is the cause of a poor result should be kicked in the bollocks repeatedly until Lukaku scores

Brian Wilkinson
141 Posted 23/02/2015 at 14:27:47
I honestly do not see Martinez putting Robles in goal Thursday, if he does and he keeps a clean sheet, how can he justify putting Tim back in goal Sunday.

I defended putting Tim back in and said Robles was unlucky to be dropped, I hold my hands up and got that wrong.

My heart goes out to the likes of Robles, Besic and Naismith, no matter what they do, it seems the likes of Howard, Barry and Lukaku will always walk in the team.

Ray Roche
142 Posted 23/02/2015 at 14:36:50
Tony, I'm not sure that anyone is saying that the poor performances are all down to the crowd. The problem lies with Martinez, no on else. From the pathetic excuse for a pre season, to poor fitness levels, unrest and sackings in the medical staff, dreadful team selection and tactics, and baffling substitutions, or, as at Southampton , NO substitutions despite being 3-0 down and playing shite football. But if a young player like Barkley is struggling it's down to Martinez to accept that and give him a break, at least in home games.

Despite his poor form and lack of confidence(and where has that come from? maybe the problems mentioned above?) Barkley is a real talent, but it's a talent that's being wasted at the moment because of Martinez and his incredible tactics.

Kevin Rowlands
143 Posted 23/02/2015 at 14:37:03
JM #137, sorry mate but I completely disagree with you that Howard did well on their first goal, why isn't he trying to actually gather it in with 2 hands instead of flapping at it with one and putting the ball back in a position where anything can happen and guess what, it did. He also flapped at the cross for the second putting it straight back into danger and the same result happened, they scored. To top it off he then flapped at another cross in the last seconds which nearly resulted in another goal for them, he's just not good enough. Out of interest what did you think of the decision to drop Robles for Howard?
Colin Glassar
144 Posted 23/02/2015 at 14:50:49
I've just read Leighton Baines interview in the Echo where he states that the players know this isn't good enough, that they can't put their finger on why they are so poor, that they want to improve bla bla bla. Well Leighton, you can start with yourself. Rarely goes beyond the halfway line, terrible dead ball delivery, pathetic corner taking and piss poor defending. Improve on these deficiencies and we just might start to improve.
Mike Hughes
147 Posted 23/02/2015 at 15:14:44
Colin -

I packed in buying / reading papers years ago. They are full of insipid stuff (at best) and fiction (at worst).

Regarding what LB said, couldn't we have predicted such a statement? It's straight out of the Phil Neville School of Spin. If LB had have said, "I think we're doing great in 12th place and the same next season" or "a blind man can see that RM is full of crap" then that would have been interesting.

As it stands, it's chip wrapper.

I agree with your point, like, but why they have to spout off to the press is just because they take us for mugs. If he was serious, he'd keep his gob shut and do his talking on the pitch. As you say, starting with a decent corner for once.

Ray Roche
148 Posted 23/02/2015 at 15:33:50
Colin, I think the reason Baines rarely goes beyond the half way line is that there is no cover, and no one to exchange passes with, now that Pienaar has been injured for some time. Baines would get roasted if he continued to push forward and leave too much room behind him, there is little help on that side of the pitch with the way Martinez sets his team up. Every week we see Baines push forward and then stop, clearly looking for some movement or a player going into the left wing slot. Nothing happens so he eventually passes inside to Jags or back to Howard. Why Martinez can't see that we are short on the left side is beyond me. Mind you, this is the sin miedo Roberto that plays four defenders and two defensive mid fielders at home to bottom of the table Leicester.
Sondre Haga
150 Posted 23/02/2015 at 15:58:11
Roberto seems to have limitless faith in Howard. His philosophy is based on playing out from the back. Then, to rely on a keeper unable to pass and use his feets doesnÂ’t make sense at all. All teams that I can think of with similar style of play have goalkeepers with decent technique and good feets. In modern football the goalkeeper needs to work as a sweeper.

That said, Howard was not the main problem yesterday. We didnÂ’t deserve to win that game anyway. The low ball tempo, bad movement and the lack of creativity in midfield was shocking to watch.

Sondre Haga
151 Posted 23/02/2015 at 15:58:11
Roberto seems to have limitless faith in Howard. His philosophy is based on playing out from the back. Then, to rely on a keeper unable to pass and use his feets doesn't make sense at all. All teams that I can think of with similar style of play have goalkeepers with decent technique and good feets. In modern football the goalkeeper needs to work as a sweeper.

That said, Howard was not the main problem yesterday. We didn't deserve to win that game anyway. The low ball tempo, bad movement and the lack of creativity in midfield was shocking to watch.

James Marshall
152 Posted 23/02/2015 at 16:19:49
Kevin #143

I would have kept Robles in the team personally. He was doing well, improving with every game he played and deserved a run.

I still think Howard does well to get down to the first cross. That's a very difficult ball to deal with and I genuinely think a lot of people don't appreciate that.

It was hit hard along the ground and the keeper HAS to go for it. Goalkeeping is an instinctive art, and you do things without thinking a lot of the time. Sometimes it comes off, sometimes it doesn't.

I'm an odd fish perhaps on here as an ex keeper I'll always defence them unless they've really made a howler and on this one I don't think he has. The second one lacked conviction and he paid for it. Then his confidence was shot and he flapped again later. It happen to keepers. Crosses are the hardest thing to deal with and all keeper screw up sometimes. Most often one mistake will follow another but to lay into a goalkeeper who has been an excellent custodian for Everton is in my view, short sighted and unfair.

Kevin Rowlands
153 Posted 23/02/2015 at 16:35:20
James, I’m not slating him in regards to his career with us, yes he’s been a good servant, but I’m afraid he’s no longer good enough. I just watched the highlights again and realized he had another flapping howler at the start of the second half that nearly resulted in a goal for them as well.

The decision to drop Robles imho was a disgrace as we unfortunately are now finding out, he should be our keeper from now till the season ends, even Andy Gray in the echo is calling for Howard to be dropped. How many chances do we have to give him James? he’s cost us big in several games this season, he needs to be benched permanently!

Robin White
154 Posted 23/02/2015 at 16:48:13
What are you smoking Roberto? We are in trouble and itÂ’s down to one delusional man. We have had relegation battles before but I donÂ’t see the fight with most of this team.

Barry is too pedestrian for the battle ahead, Baines not the same assured self, Howard a mistake waiting to happen. Replace Howard with Robles, Baines with Oviedo or Garbutt, Barry with Besic. TheyÂ’re all in better form.

Tony Dove
155 Posted 23/02/2015 at 16:50:11
I said some months ago that I would judge Martinez on what he got out of Ross B. So guilty is the verdict. Ross is potentially a great player and
should be the making of the club either by what he does playing wise or the money he would generate from a transfer. At the moment his lack of confidence is painful to watch and the worse the team plays the more moronic abuse he gets. If it carries on like this Martinez aided by the fans will destroy him.
Denis Richardson
156 Posted 23/02/2015 at 17:02:44
Ray 148 - not disagreeing with you but isn't the whole point of having 2 CDMs in the starting 11 every game precisely so that the FBs can bomb forward?

I thought the CDMs were supposed to cover the FBs and slot into the space they leave open if they go forward. Seems this isn't really happening and so the likes of Baines and Coleman don't get forward as much. Or at least the FBs don't have confidence in being covered by the CDMs (understandable in Barry's case given how slow he is)

Ray Roche
157 Posted 23/02/2015 at 17:34:18
Denis, the theory might be right but the application isn't. With three centre backs and five across the middle, that can work, with one defender acting like a sweeper, covering whichever side is threatened or the nearest defender doing that, or as you say CM covering the full back. But that hasn't worked at all this year and with our present playing staff I don't think it will. We would be better having Garbutt or Oviedo or even Baines wide left with one of the others LB, rather than Baines afraid to cross the half way line for fear of being exposed.
Barry hasn't got the legs or the speed to cover for the full back, despite him having a good football brain.
Anthony Flack
158 Posted 23/02/2015 at 18:02:30
Sorry I am late to this as a busy day at work...

For me the game versus Leicester should be for Howard exactly what the cup game versus Wigan was for Neville - his last for Everton.

Perhaps I am silly and all that, but he is costing us goals again and again, if that is not his fault, then I am lost for words - it certainly wasn't the friggin fairies

Ian Linn
159 Posted 23/02/2015 at 18:05:14
A Haiku,

Mister Martinez
Which keeper were you watching
You need spectacles.

Peter Gorman
160 Posted 23/02/2015 at 18:15:34
Keeping the ball safe
while not threatening a goal
is phenomenal
Colin Glassar
161 Posted 23/02/2015 at 18:21:51
Ray, I'm not denying that Bainsey seems to want to move past the halfway line, before hitting an invisible wall, if that's the fact surely he would have had a word by now with his manager and team mates to solve this.
If I hit my head every day on a beam sooner or later even I will learn to duck.
I love Bainsey but he's been poor for a while now.
Gavin Johnson
162 Posted 23/02/2015 at 19:10:23
I blame it on Howard's beard. He wasn't this bad until he grew the stupid mountain man facial muff.
Kevin Rowlands
163 Posted 23/02/2015 at 18:41:04
AF #158, I completely agree, I personally couldn’t stand Phil Neville but at least him and his brother knew when to hang them up, I don’t think we’re gonna be as lucky with Howard, unfortunately, and it certainly looks like we don’t have a manager strong enough to tell him the fat lady is singing!
Brin Williams
164 Posted 23/02/2015 at 19:24:52
I notice that 'Grandolteam' site has a discussiom forum on 'Depression' lots of help on there lads.!

Most of it is really serious stuff tho!

Tahir Abdullah
165 Posted 23/02/2015 at 19:30:20
Denis @127, sums up my view on Martinez as well; a snake oil salesman.....
Jay @128, phenomenal post....
Colin Glassar
166 Posted 23/02/2015 at 19:31:57
Howard's beard, Lukaku's dreadlocks, Pienaar's corn rows (is that what they are called?), hells bells, even Torres losing his blonde hair. Is there a connection Gavin?
Gavin Johnson
167 Posted 23/02/2015 at 19:41:31
As daft as it sounds, Colin, I think Rom and Pienaar did seem to loose it when they lost the dreads and corn rows respectively. Baines said today they can't put their finger on why they're not getting results. Perhaps this hair conspiracy might have something in it.
Craig Mills
168 Posted 23/02/2015 at 19:40:37
Jay @ 128, that's a as good post as I've read on the site for quite some time, if only there was a way to get it in front of Biil Kenwright !!
The stats you've provided are enough to send a chill down the spine of every Evertonion - we are in trouble big time, and after our next two away days at the Emirates and The Britannia stadiums, things will probably be a whole load worse.......
Colin Glassar
169 Posted 23/02/2015 at 20:03:50
It's called the Samson syndrome, Gavin.
Ernie Baywood
170 Posted 23/02/2015 at 20:16:26
I just don't agree that Baines has been poor. I watched him intently on Sunday and he didn't put a foot wrong. Every intention was good. He's just not influencing games the way we would like. Rather than being poor he's just not being good.

He just had nowhere to go. He's got no-one to overlap and is up against two wide players every week. I also watched Naismith providing 'half cover' - he stood on the halfway line and ushered Baines back. Can't blame Naismith for that - it's just not his game. Baines is getting forward - that's the Martinez style. As soon as we get the ball he goes forward and the CBs go wider. It's deliberate and very drilled. And was a contributing factor to both goals.

Baines still has the intent, the touch, the speed of thought and feet. For us to not find a way to use that is criminal. We're wasting him.

Simon Hermansen
171 Posted 23/02/2015 at 20:24:59
I'm sorry but Howard is well into double figures on serious errors that have caused goals this season. I don't care If he has the odd good game, I honestly can't remember an Everton keeper in worse form than he's in at present - and I'm going back 35 years.

If you need any more evidence of RMs flawed judgement (and who does!) then look no further than his above comments

Ray Robinson
172 Posted 23/02/2015 at 20:39:32
I haven't read all of this thread, sorry but the criticism being flung in Howard's direction and the general clamouring for Robles to step into the team, would be much more palatable to me if there hadn't been a general consensus not so long ago that Robles wasn't up to the task. Smacks of some people leaping on and off a bandwagon when it suits them.

For what it's worth I really admire Howard for his and professionalism, genuine affection for and dedication to the club but I would never have dropped Robles after his string of good performances and clean sheets. Whether Howard will ever reach his previous peak again, only time will tell. My one time hero, Neville Southall, was allowed to play on far too long and there was a danger that his reputation would be tarnished as a result. Perhaps, Howard just needs a rest? However, before I bad mouth him, I would acknowledge his contribution to the club. I rate him only behind Southall, Gordon West and possibly Nigel Martyn in the goalkeeping hierarchy.

It's Martinez's fault if he's played beyond his expiry date and he doesn't deserve the insults thrown at him.

Terence Tipler
173 Posted 23/02/2015 at 20:51:13
Type or paste your comment here. PLEASE capitalise initial letters of proper names and use proper grammar. No txt-speak; all-lowercase posts are likely to be deleted
Gavin Johnson
174 Posted 23/02/2015 at 20:49:06
For me, seeing Howard in goal now, is as ridiculous as when we used to see Neville play week-in, week-out in midfield. It's just wrong on so many levels but you know that Martinez has a blind spot where Howard's concerned.

It makes you wonder how many more clangers he has to make before Martinez has the Phil Neville V Wigan epiphany our OFM had. I fear it will get a lot worse before Martinez takes the blinkers off about Timmy.

Gavin Johnson
175 Posted 23/02/2015 at 21:12:17
Ray, Robles was crap on the few occasions we saw him play and I don't think many felt he would be up to task when he was forced to come in for the injured Howard.

Everyone thought we'd have to bring in a new GK last month. So when Robles came in and started to show the form and potential that made Martinez splash the undisclosed (but reportedly 4m fee) most were made up to think we already had someone to replace a GK who has been crap all season.

So, I'd have to disagree that people are jumping on a bandwagon. Howard needs to go this summer, like Distin, who is another, who's has played one too many seasons. Both have been good servants but footballs not a game for sentiment and players should only be judged on their present form. Unfortunately we seem to have a manager who is in awe of certain players who can do no wrong in his eyes, even though Howard must be at the top the charts for individual errors this season.

Ged Dwyer
176 Posted 23/02/2015 at 21:00:53
James Marshall – I agree with you on Howard. Unfortunately once supporters are on a downer about a player they do not see the good things he does but crucify him for any sign of a mistake. The Barry bandwagon is the prime example.

He has put in some excellent performances this season but is now cited as an awful player. He ran the show against YB but there was not a mention about him. We actually missed him on Sunday until Gibson came on. Problem with Barry is that he is expected to do everything instead of just playing to his strengths, which is the managers fault.

As for Howard, Robles deserved an extended run in the team and it was stupid to bring Howard straight back in. I think Howard will sense that the crowd are now against him and it is the one position were a mistake will be punished and if a goalie is nervous about a crowd mistakes will happen.

Gavin Johnson
177 Posted 23/02/2015 at 21:43:59
Roberto needs to be brave and take Howard out of the firing line. He can publicly defend him, but any more mistakes are just going to make people question his judgement even more.

Great managers are bold and decisive in situations like this. Look how whisky nose used to drop his keepers when they made one too many errors. (Howard being one of them) Jim Leighton followed Ferguson from Aberdeen, but there was not sentiment when he was dropped in the FA Cup final replay.

I'd love to see Martinez come across as a stronger manager in his relationships with some of our players.

Tony Draper
178 Posted 23/02/2015 at 21:52:46
Colin & Gavin 166 & 167

I completely agree with the "Haircut Theory", infact as I recall, both myself and Harold Matthews agreed upon this principle during the close season, though only in regard to Big Rom's dreads.

Bainsey's "mod" cut ?

Colin Glassar
179 Posted 23/02/2015 at 22:13:59
I would include Bainsey's mod cut as well Tony. He's been in a dip ever since he went all Oasis on us,
Kevin Rowlands
180 Posted 23/02/2015 at 22:32:39
I’m sorry I’m not buying into this idea that because Howard has been a good servant to the club he shouldn’t be criticized, absolute rubbish, these guys are public figures and are very, very well compensated. Criticism comes with the territory when they’re stinking the joint out, like he and others have been! It’s well deserved.
Ray Robinson
181 Posted 23/02/2015 at 22:34:39
Gavin, I agree with you. My point was that I'll bet there are some people who now want Robles in, who only a few weeks ago, were saying that he wasn't good enough.
Ray Robinson
182 Posted 23/02/2015 at 22:43:23
No, Kevin - criticism is extremely valid - as you say, it comes with the territory. However, vilification does not help. It never improves a player's performance and scapegoating is never the whole solution. I reserve my bile for players who do not give 100% or think they are bigger than the club.

You ought to hear some of the crap that emanates from where I sit in the Park End - it's not what I call justifiable criticism! I know it's ruining Barkley, no matter how well he's paid.

Dave Abrahams
183 Posted 23/02/2015 at 23:03:11
James Marshall what standard of football did you play at as a goalkeeper, just out of curiosity?.
Kevin Rowlands
184 Posted 23/02/2015 at 23:24:06
Ray, I understand that vitriol from the terraces doesn’t help, but these situations are happening because of awful decisions from Martinez that haven’t helped, both Barkley and Howard need to be bencheddar for the foreseeable future or it is going to get very nasty if things don’t improve, as for criticism on a fan forum I don’t see any problem with it whatsoever.
Paul Bradley
185 Posted 24/02/2015 at 09:04:56
Forget blaming Howard, Baines was terrible, lacks fight and aggression for a top full back. Barkley is feeling the pressure and Lukaku... well, I canÂ’t see him improving overnight, he must be left out, he is costing us the points.

Any striker in the premiership would of put at least two of his chances away; play Kone for the rest of the season. A big plus for us was Gibson first game back and showed them all up.

Can someone tell me why he takes Besic off all the time?

Ernie Baywood
186 Posted 24/02/2015 at 12:37:29
Bencheddar might be the best typing error since a football website used a spell check on its report and waxed lyrical about Cess Fibreglass.

Android by any chance?

Ray Robinson
187 Posted 24/02/2015 at 12:57:17
Kevin, couldn't agree with you more about it being Martinez's fault for carrying on picking these guys but I can't see how bile from the stands towards players helps at all - whatever the reason.

There's a guy near me in the Park End who shouts out "*******", you're f&ckin' crap before a ball has even been kicked. For , ******** substitute, Howard, Osman, Barkley, Barry, Distin, Lukaku - in fact, anyone who he takes a passing dislike to. It's "supporters" like him who make my blood boil, not a player performing badly.

James Newcombe
188 Posted 24/02/2015 at 13:03:14
Ray, I'd definitely put Martyn ahead of Howard - he was absolutely brilliant for us!
Ray Robinson
189 Posted 24/02/2015 at 13:04:47
James, might even agree - pity that we only saw him at the tail end of his career.
Tim Michael
190 Posted 24/02/2015 at 14:07:13
Cast your minds back to the heady days of last season and those regulars/ST holders like myself will have already seen disturbing aspects in HowardÂ’s general play. His erratic decision making in terms of distributing the ball out of his hands.

Time and time again he was in a massive hurry to get the ball away to his defenders, regularly putting them under pressure. His passing from feet also came with risk. Thus he was making with poor decision making about when to launch the ball and when not. Think about the games where he almost got caught by an approaching opponent.

The signs were there last season but were masked by the momentum that we had at the other end of the park. This season his overall form has further declined and prior to his injury it did not warrant a first team place. Those of us at the game could see it clearly.

His kicking is woeful and lacks both distance and accuracy. He has a poor habit of slicing kicks regularly. His punching is also below the standard required which becomes even more of an issue for a man that does not have an aerial dominance in the box.

Furthermore this is also a man who decided to back away from international football to spend more time with his family which should have given a clear indication to all at EFC that this was a man taking a backward step from football.

Cue the introduction of Robles who should have played in all cup competitions from the start. However the Krasnodar game showed Robles to be both nervous and not match ready. To his credit the lad settled down in the absence of Howard to start to look confident and vocal to his defenders, only to be cruelly removed from the side.

Setting aside the EL second leg, we move towards two very difficult PL away games and RM’s decision to bring back TH throws up bigger problems in goal. I read a comment that if Robles is brought back he will have to start from scratch and I have to agree with that. Should RM return Robles to the side, he effectively has to start all over again in terms of settling down but we have to stick with him right up to the end of the season. It really is the only option.

Gavin Johnson
191 Posted 24/02/2015 at 16:47:00
Begovic is out of contract this summer. If we picked him up. I wouldn't be even bothered about getting a fee for Howard. He's become so bad in my estimation. I'd even chip in for his taxi and airline ticket back to the MLS.
Dave Abrahams
193 Posted 25/02/2015 at 16:46:02
Ray (172 ) I rate Howard just ahead of Paul Gerrard and Richard Wright, you are right though he doesn't pick himself, and so it Martinez who deserves any criticism that is given out.
Andrew Laird
194 Posted 25/02/2015 at 19:28:16
Martinez has stated: "Tim has come back from injury and needs to play," Martinez said. "It's not an issue whatsoever. He is a very experienced footballer and in European nights you need that experience." Howard will keep his place on Thursday, so there we have it, old players who have been shite all season get a free pass until they are injured because form does not matter as much as err.... Age.
Sorry Roberto but this is a sackable offence.

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